NGO fears anti-gay campaign in Belgrade

It is an individual right for people to decide their own sexuality as long as it doesn't encroach on anyone else (eg. having porn mags on sale where children can see them).

There is a real intolerance of homosexuality in many countries in Europe, and I have heard in London some of the attitudes that people from places like the Ukraine, Czech and Serbia (to name examples that I have encountered) are bringing in to our largely tolerant society.

It's terrible how gay people are categorised as the same as pedophiles or sexual abusers. Leave them alone and let them live their lives.

Western values? Lazar you're sadly mistaken. I refer you to ancient Sparta, the Roman Empire, Byzantium, Persia and the Ottoman Empire. Homosexuality is something that predates Christianity and has its cultural origins in the east (not the west).

When Constantinople fell to Mehmet in 1453 he wanted Loukas Notaras 'beautiful' son. Why did Spartan men live away from women on the hills surrounding the city? How many Roman emperors were homosexual? How many monasteries in the Orthodox nation have been accused of indulging in homosexual activity? Was not Alexander the Great gay? Why did so many poets (Byrom etc) venture to the east? The list is endless.

Homosexuality is older than any form of christianity and older than any nation.

I'm an Orthodox Christian but i dont abstain from cheese during cheese fast. Does that make me an Orthodox Christian with 'Western Values'?

Lazar - Unless gay people in Belgrade wish to have a forum through the church, then the church's stance is surely irrelevant. Even if the Orthodox Church is against homosexuality I am sure that it doesn't condone intolerance and attacks.

Besides which, infidelity also goes against the church, but you don't see unfaithful husbands and wives being hounded by anyone.

Lazar,

How much have you really studied the phenomenon of homosexuality? Are you aware of the fact that people are just naturally gay -- that they don't just decide to be that way? And even if they did, what would it matter? If they're happy with their lifestyle and not hurting anyone, what's the problem? Our venerable religious leaders have been ignorant and wrong on many matters in the past -- they were still telling us that the world was flat up until the 15th century. I can tell you that they're wrong on this, too, but too afraid to admit it.

Well, maybe one day whites everywhere will embrace blacks, Muslims will love Jews, and heterosexuals will finally give full respect to gays. It's a shame the world isn't there already, that people who think the way that you do, Lazar, are still slowing down progress, still enabling needless suffering.

NGOs should understand that Orthodox christians are against this. It is so in every orthodox christian country, and in many other countries too. We are different, we view this in a different way, in a very bad way, so why should we be forced to accept western values? Who says that they are right? If Russia is anti-gay and if the entire middle east, as well as israel are, then surely there is something to this point of view that is not insane.

How about respect for international law which Belgrade is always so much interested in? This behavior is against European and international standards. Any statements on this from Mr Kostunica? Isn't Mr Jocic responsible for citizens security? Anything heard from him?

"If Russia is anti-gay and if the entire middle east, as well as israel are, then surely there is something to this point of view that is not insane."

Very right.

In greece we have a monopoly of the Gays in the entertainment sector, where gays dominate. Isnt that a descrimination against str8s?

No coincidence that this "fashion" started only after private television debuted
in the early 90s...

Maybe wild capitalism and homosexuality and low quality just get along all together.

Handicaps also have rightsm but you dont show people with
3 arms and 4 heads all day long in TV (altho that is also probable)

If it was up to me I would give them all rights as heterosexuals enjoy. In my opinion they should be allowed to join all institutions equally including marriage and children adoption. Serbia need to establish good law on this phenomenon in order to protect thier dignity and avoid future discrimination, and furthermore should approach to this issue by open mind and liberal attitudes. I am an orthodox and have no problem to accept the fact that homosexuals do exist and I really could not care less what our church say. Instead of condemning church should deal with pedophiles amongst themselves.

Kate,

I agree completely with you.

As a psycho-educator, I have met so many young homosexuals, not accepting what they are, looking for a therapy to cure themselves, showing so little self confidence, and considering suicide as they only way out.

If all heterosexuals would accept them for what they are, it would change their life completely. Homosexuality is not a choice. Who would choose such a lifestyle?

I would like to tell Lazar that homosexuality as nothing to do with western values. There are homosexuals everywhere on earth: China, Japan, Russia, Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Africa, Canada and there are homosexuals in all churches: Orthodox, Jewish and Christian. The are homosexuals in all fields: doctors, lawyers, teachers, farmers, peasants...

Some of the greatest genius were homosexuals and, to name one, I would point out Leonardo da Vinci.

Please, accept people as they are.

Anthony,

"I'm an Orthodox Christian but i dont abstain from cheese during cheese fast. Does that make me an Orthodox Christian with 'Western Values'?"

Actually, please don't take me wrong, but IT DOES EXACTLY THAT!!!

I too am Christian Orthodox and will give you an example:

A basic tenat of being a 'kum' (cousin/ best man/ godfather) to a couple at their wedding in the official view of the Serbian Orthodox Church in Serbia, means that the same kum should be godfather to any children that the couple may have in the future/ already have.

Where I live in London, they pick whomever they please for whatever they want. This may sound great (freedom of choice, including as many people as possible in family events, etc.), but if you were kum at the wedding you'd expect to be so at the christening and so on. Because that's how it's done. This may be awkward within the community. Then knock-off effects include people who aren't baptised christian Orthodox - they are also made kum - this should be impossible - and people getting their brothers for kums - according to the Church this shouldn't happen.

What's happened is a weird diluting of tradition and culture as it's not taught as such outside Serbia, merely passed down and mimicked.

This, coupled with the adopted mixed values of the West, all of a sudden makes it possible for me to have my brother, who is single and a recent atheist convert, be my kum!!!

Ask anyone in Serbia - this shoould be impossible - but I've seen similar (not the atheist convert bit!) in London.

Anyway, this is just one of the many ways in which the West does indeed impact on our continuing our culture and traditions, albeit as a side-effect/ trade-off for adopting some of their values.

For my part, if I fast - I fast. Since I don't live in Serbia I find I have to be MORE Serbian that the Serbs in Serbia! Otherwise my family and I - and it's future - would be lost forever.

I was born in the UK and yet, because my father taught me Cyrillic at such an early age, I actually write and read it better than Latin alphabet as with Latin I can get confused with English lettering. No such problem with Cyrillic.

There's no middle ground - you do something, you do it properly. It's argued that etiquette nowadays demands that if someone is fasting and during that fast is invited to a friends for dinner, it's OK to break that fast so as not to offend your host...!!!

WHAT IN THE BLAZES IS THAT ALL ABOUT?

If you fast you do it properly or not at all! Now I'm going to break my fast for someone that should've, quite frankly, since he's the host, prepared a dairy/ meat-free dinner!

Anyway, just my penny's worth!

Lazar,
I'm anti orthodox christian. Maybe I should be allowed to throw tear gas into orthodox churches.
People should be allowed to live there live with freedom and security. How are people going to a gay club infringing on other peoples rights. Let them live their lives and you live yours. Religious views are not a justification for the harm of others. Remember "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Perhaps we should ask Pahomije what he thinks.

Nenad - "...and heterosexuals will finally give full respect to gays"

Some already do, thank goodness. Some gay people lose respect but as an individual not because of their sexuality, just the same as anyone else.

Anyway as far as I'm concerned Christianity (and most other faiths in their true form) is about love, forgiveness, peace, respect of life and inclusiveness.

How about respect for international law which Belgrade is always so much interested in? This behavior is against European and international standards. Any statements on this from Mr Kostunica? Isn't Mr Jocic responsible for citizens security? Anything heard from him?

It is an individual right for people to decide their own sexuality as long as it doesn't encroach on anyone else (eg. having porn mags on sale where children can see them).

There is a real intolerance of homosexuality in many countries in Europe, and I have heard in London some of the attitudes that people from places like the Ukraine, Czech and Serbia (to name examples that I have encountered) are bringing in to our largely tolerant society.

It's terrible how gay people are categorised as the same as pedophiles or sexual abusers. Leave them alone and let them live their lives.

NGOs should understand that Orthodox christians are against this. It is so in every orthodox christian country, and in many other countries too. We are different, we view this in a different way, in a very bad way, so why should we be forced to accept western values? Who says that they are right? If Russia is anti-gay and if the entire middle east, as well as israel are, then surely there is something to this point of view that is not insane.

Lazar - Unless gay people in Belgrade wish to have a forum through the church, then the church's stance is surely irrelevant. Even if the Orthodox Church is against homosexuality I am sure that it doesn't condone intolerance and attacks.

Besides which, infidelity also goes against the church, but you don't see unfaithful husbands and wives being hounded by anyone.

"If Russia is anti-gay and if the entire middle east, as well as israel are, then surely there is something to this point of view that is not insane."

Very right.

In greece we have a monopoly of the Gays in the entertainment sector, where gays dominate. Isnt that a descrimination against str8s?

No coincidence that this "fashion" started only after private television debuted
in the early 90s...

Maybe wild capitalism and homosexuality and low quality just get along all together.

Handicaps also have rightsm but you dont show people with
3 arms and 4 heads all day long in TV (altho that is also probable)

Lazar,

How much have you really studied the phenomenon of homosexuality? Are you aware of the fact that people are just naturally gay -- that they don't just decide to be that way? And even if they did, what would it matter? If they're happy with their lifestyle and not hurting anyone, what's the problem? Our venerable religious leaders have been ignorant and wrong on many matters in the past -- they were still telling us that the world was flat up until the 15th century. I can tell you that they're wrong on this, too, but too afraid to admit it.

Well, maybe one day whites everywhere will embrace blacks, Muslims will love Jews, and heterosexuals will finally give full respect to gays. It's a shame the world isn't there already, that people who think the way that you do, Lazar, are still slowing down progress, still enabling needless suffering.

Lazar,
I'm anti orthodox christian. Maybe I should be allowed to throw tear gas into orthodox churches.
People should be allowed to live there live with freedom and security. How are people going to a gay club infringing on other peoples rights. Let them live their lives and you live yours. Religious views are not a justification for the harm of others. Remember "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Western values? Lazar you're sadly mistaken. I refer you to ancient Sparta, the Roman Empire, Byzantium, Persia and the Ottoman Empire. Homosexuality is something that predates Christianity and has its cultural origins in the east (not the west).

When Constantinople fell to Mehmet in 1453 he wanted Loukas Notaras 'beautiful' son. Why did Spartan men live away from women on the hills surrounding the city? How many Roman emperors were homosexual? How many monasteries in the Orthodox nation have been accused of indulging in homosexual activity? Was not Alexander the Great gay? Why did so many poets (Byrom etc) venture to the east? The list is endless.

Homosexuality is older than any form of christianity and older than any nation.

I'm an Orthodox Christian but i dont abstain from cheese during cheese fast. Does that make me an Orthodox Christian with 'Western Values'?

If it was up to me I would give them all rights as heterosexuals enjoy. In my opinion they should be allowed to join all institutions equally including marriage and children adoption. Serbia need to establish good law on this phenomenon in order to protect thier dignity and avoid future discrimination, and furthermore should approach to this issue by open mind and liberal attitudes. I am an orthodox and have no problem to accept the fact that homosexuals do exist and I really could not care less what our church say. Instead of condemning church should deal with pedophiles amongst themselves.

Anthony,

"I'm an Orthodox Christian but i dont abstain from cheese during cheese fast. Does that make me an Orthodox Christian with 'Western Values'?"

Actually, please don't take me wrong, but IT DOES EXACTLY THAT!!!

I too am Christian Orthodox and will give you an example:

A basic tenat of being a 'kum' (cousin/ best man/ godfather) to a couple at their wedding in the official view of the Serbian Orthodox Church in Serbia, means that the same kum should be godfather to any children that the couple may have in the future/ already have.

Where I live in London, they pick whomever they please for whatever they want. This may sound great (freedom of choice, including as many people as possible in family events, etc.), but if you were kum at the wedding you'd expect to be so at the christening and so on. Because that's how it's done. This may be awkward within the community. Then knock-off effects include people who aren't baptised christian Orthodox - they are also made kum - this should be impossible - and people getting their brothers for kums - according to the Church this shouldn't happen.

What's happened is a weird diluting of tradition and culture as it's not taught as such outside Serbia, merely passed down and mimicked.

This, coupled with the adopted mixed values of the West, all of a sudden makes it possible for me to have my brother, who is single and a recent atheist convert, be my kum!!!

Ask anyone in Serbia - this shoould be impossible - but I've seen similar (not the atheist convert bit!) in London.

Anyway, this is just one of the many ways in which the West does indeed impact on our continuing our culture and traditions, albeit as a side-effect/ trade-off for adopting some of their values.

For my part, if I fast - I fast. Since I don't live in Serbia I find I have to be MORE Serbian that the Serbs in Serbia! Otherwise my family and I - and it's future - would be lost forever.

I was born in the UK and yet, because my father taught me Cyrillic at such an early age, I actually write and read it better than Latin alphabet as with Latin I can get confused with English lettering. No such problem with Cyrillic.

There's no middle ground - you do something, you do it properly. It's argued that etiquette nowadays demands that if someone is fasting and during that fast is invited to a friends for dinner, it's OK to break that fast so as not to offend your host...!!!

WHAT IN THE BLAZES IS THAT ALL ABOUT?

If you fast you do it properly or not at all! Now I'm going to break my fast for someone that should've, quite frankly, since he's the host, prepared a dairy/ meat-free dinner!

Anyway, just my penny's worth!

Perhaps we should ask Pahomije what he thinks.

Nenad - "...and heterosexuals will finally give full respect to gays"

Some already do, thank goodness. Some gay people lose respect but as an individual not because of their sexuality, just the same as anyone else.

Anyway as far as I'm concerned Christianity (and most other faiths in their true form) is about love, forgiveness, peace, respect of life and inclusiveness.

Kate,

I agree completely with you.

As a psycho-educator, I have met so many young homosexuals, not accepting what they are, looking for a therapy to cure themselves, showing so little self confidence, and considering suicide as they only way out.

If all heterosexuals would accept them for what they are, it would change their life completely. Homosexuality is not a choice. Who would choose such a lifestyle?

I would like to tell Lazar that homosexuality as nothing to do with western values. There are homosexuals everywhere on earth: China, Japan, Russia, Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Africa, Canada and there are homosexuals in all churches: Orthodox, Jewish and Christian. The are homosexuals in all fields: doctors, lawyers, teachers, farmers, peasants...

Some of the greatest genius were homosexuals and, to name one, I would point out Leonardo da Vinci.

Please, accept people as they are.