Pijetro
It is only the political will that stands in the way of that inclusive construct. Kosova’s inhabitants could easily have multiple layers of identity that won’t conflict with each other. One could be Serb, Kosovan and European at the same time. The same goes for Albanians. Prior to 89 nearly all of Kosova was bilingual and that included the Serbs. Sociologically both ethnicities have much in common that we are led to believe. This could have been a case for delegative leadership but I guess we have the wrong politicians in place.
Dear Ron
I truly like you. You seem like a real passionate guy but I do hope you’ll stop that broken record technique.
"There were great powers on both sides - one of them backed one part of Germany and the other backed the other part."
"That no longer exists because the Cold War is over," said Rahr,
it doesn't really look that to me. Regarding the timing Sir. you are right, it would have been much more similar if the issue was sort out in 1999 rather then now, but trying to be rational with the irrational serbians simply it doesn’t work, hence independence asap - and game over, turn to the future
"...not even a seat in EU and NATO... Greece, Romania, Cyprus, and Slovakia all NATO/EU members will block your entry
(Nikola, 31. October 2007 16:21)"
Funny,, they have to go versus, USA, Great Britain, France, Germany,...so do not put to much hope on those poor country.
Tex Willer,
You say. "Everything that was proposed till now was UNACCEPTABLE to Seriba. Till when?
I say, everything that was proposed to Kosovo Albanians till now has been UNACCEPTABLE. Serbia has been bending over backwards to accomodate K-Albanians short of giving them independence.
No other race of people have been offered this much self government short of independence. Don't blame Serbia for failed talks.
Albanians can and should give a little too.
And yes, independence will be denied for ever. I hope that answers you question whicn was "Till when".
You cannot demand that someone hands over their terrotory to you just because you happen to be a majority on that terrotory currently. You were not always the majority, so your gradual ethnicl cleansing of the Serb population and increased birth rate should not be rewarded.
Ahmet Isufi wrote "And who said on this site that Serbia is willing to compromise??????
What a joke.
(ahmet isufi, 31. October 2007 15:27)"
Jovan wrote
Ahmed, ....
Jovan
His name is Ahmet and not Ahmed as you call it. You been doing this for a while. It only shows your nationalistic ideology. It keeps your true beleifs implicit.
My dear friend you seem to worry a lot about the international LAW. Last time I checked the LAWS were not and should not be carved in stone. The LAWS are for people to make and change when is needed. In Kosova, as you know, serbian forces have comited ethnic clensing and crimes against humanity-that is why the international LAW will adjust accordingly to put what is right in place
"The only way to prove them wrong is to have Serbs of Kosova fully integrated into the new state in a way that they really feel part of the new construct"
Spot on Village-Bey (back at you)...
But this is the stuff that ordinary good-willed people only dream about..Especially from those of us that have full bellies and secure jobs..
The reality on the ground is different, and would be almost impossible to uphold..
I guess most of EU are set to recognize Kosova's Independence, except for some small countries like greece, cyprus, romania, and i think that Slowakia is changing its tone after an assault on Lajcak by RS Serbs. So typical of Serbs.
They are their own biggest enemy, sorry to say that.
Mike spot on again.
Half measure steps dividing sovereignty without some other kind of incentive cannot work.
Of the two option stated, the only feasible one is to give Serbs of Kosova unprecedented freedoms, something more inflated than the Antissari Plan. Serbia perceives this as a territorial dispute and doest believe into the idea of a multi-ethnic Kosova. The only way to prove them wrong is to have Serbs of Kosova fully integrated into the new state in a way that they really feel part of the new construct.
To have Albanians integrated in Serbia is not really an option. Even if we forget for a minute what has happened in the last two decades we cannot ignore the fact that the both sides have defined perceptions of each others. There is a clear demarcation of wills in both capitals. Belgrade doest and isn’t prepared to have Albanians as equals within Serbia and Prishtina certainly do not want to be part of Serbia.
Within the set of the given borders elevate the status of Kosova to that of supervised state with strong oversight. Problem solved.
"Can anybody from the Serb team tell me why Greater Albania is such a sin."
Simple: The same reasons why Greater Serbia, Greater Greece, Greater Bulgaria, Greater Croatia, and Greater Germany are sins: they look at history, culture, and ethnicity only through the eyes of their adherents, and ignore, suppress, or attempt to eliminate the ethnicities, histories, and cultures of others. They distort the past, exaggerate one's own claims to land through ridiculous historical justifications, and pass off all other cultures as interlopers, and fifth column elements.
If the West successfully halted efforts for the creation of a Greater Serbia in the 1990s, what gives you even the slightest idea that anybody would be stupid enough to facilitate a Greater Albania?
"And who said on this site that Serbia is willing to compromise??????
What a joke.
(ahmet isufi, 31. October 2007 15:27)"
Ahmed,
Serbia is very eager to have a compromise, but there is no playing around about territorial integrity. you should not make the mistake to missunderstand that as not being ready for compromise.
but, ...could it be that you want to present it that way? to blame Serbia ( in a terribly naive attempt ) by accusing the Serbs to be hard-liners unable to make a compromise?
you have much to learn yet.
there are no compromises about international LAW.
even children will have to learn that one day.
Ahment, who said this was a compromise? If anything this model complicates matters for both Serbs and Albanians. Besides, the 1972 model never put to rest the original idea that the Federal Republic of Germany would one day reclaim all its lost territory from 1945. It was only after the two Germanies REUNITED that Poland wanted guarantees from Kohl that he wouldn't be looking to take back Pommerania, Silesia, and Danzig. Is this what you want for Kosovo? A condition where Serbia looks to one day reclaim the land? Hardly.
There needs to be a staright up or down vote on Kosovo - either give it independence, or not. and if it's given independence, we need to do it so the entire international body recognizes it, not just Washington, London, and Tirana.
Ischinger is trying to make this more complicated than it is. If Kosovo gets independence, give K Serbs unprecedented freedoms. If Kosovo remains in Serbia, give K Albanians unprecedented freedoms.
Kosova is de facto independent. You can call it whatever, even "The land out there, between lands and something, something". What's important is that Kosova will never, never, ever be controlled from Serbia or Serbs again. For as long as Kosova Independence is not accepted de jure, Serbia will never be able to fully be part of any Western Organisations whatsoever and the economy will only get worse. And just for the sake of it, we Albanians are willing to have this "problem" unresolved for as long as Serbia itself stays in a limbo forever. Good luck!
Lets imagine if the US were so "dumbya" to recognise an illegal recognition where will this result - it is not just a collapse of BiH, Georgia, Moldova but what too of the ethnic Russians in Latvia and Estonia - could they not call for an independent province/region or two where they are the majority ?
Does any rational commentator really think the EU wants to go the US way given such predictable repurcussions to other EU interests?
To B92
It’s ironic how you chose to not post my comments, yet you post comments such as "Offering the most widest range of autonomy is comprimising... becuase Albanians do not even deserve that" -Nikola
Indeed you are bias and don’t forget its USA money that finances your propagandistic operations
I have the feeling that the text and the title do not corespond.
B92 is only speaking about what this guy Alexander Rahr said.
Who is this guy Alexander Rahr.
He is the head of the Russian-German friends society.
Why should we even read what he has to say?
To Nikola.
Thank god is not up to you or your friends to decide what Kosova will get.
People of Kosova deserve to be free. They have sofered enough under many occupations.
Can anybody from the Serb team tell me why Greater Albania is such a sin.
By the way Greater Albania does not have to be one state. It can be two states as well. Being in tow states will make us stronger and greater within the reagon.
The only thing that is new here is that Ischinger is finally insisting on something rather than coming up with new ideas every other day, only to change his mind a minute later.
As for Belgrade, well nothing new there: Belgrade rejects and so does Kosova and even if they talk till the end of days they will never agree on the issue of status.
The good thing is that we Albanians already control Kosova de facto, the US and the biggies in the EU support us and Serbia is leaning more and more in the direction of Russia, which means that it will start to enjoy les and less goodwill and sympathy on the part of the West.As for the talks and the Troika, well to put it bluntly they are just short term nuisances on our way to independence.
I would like to see RS and Serbia getting joined in one Country under the name Serbia like the two Germany's in the early 90s.
If this is what the german diplomat has in mind, i agree that this is how the German precedent should be interpreted and applied.
I would like to see RS and Serbia getting joined in one Country under the name Serbia like the two Germany's in the early 90s.
If this is what the german diplomat has in mind, i agree that this is how the German precedent should be interpreted and applied.
Lets imagine if the US were so "dumbya" to recognise an illegal recognition where will this result - it is not just a collapse of BiH, Georgia, Moldova but what too of the ethnic Russians in Latvia and Estonia - could they not call for an independent province/region or two where they are the majority ?
Does any rational commentator really think the EU wants to go the US way given such predictable repurcussions to other EU interests?
The only thing that is new here is that Ischinger is finally insisting on something rather than coming up with new ideas every other day, only to change his mind a minute later.
As for Belgrade, well nothing new there: Belgrade rejects and so does Kosova and even if they talk till the end of days they will never agree on the issue of status.
The good thing is that we Albanians already control Kosova de facto, the US and the biggies in the EU support us and Serbia is leaning more and more in the direction of Russia, which means that it will start to enjoy les and less goodwill and sympathy on the part of the West.As for the talks and the Troika, well to put it bluntly they are just short term nuisances on our way to independence.
"And who said on this site that Serbia is willing to compromise??????
What a joke.
(ahmet isufi, 31. October 2007 15:27)"
Ahmed,
Serbia is very eager to have a compromise, but there is no playing around about territorial integrity. you should not make the mistake to missunderstand that as not being ready for compromise.
but, ...could it be that you want to present it that way? to blame Serbia ( in a terribly naive attempt ) by accusing the Serbs to be hard-liners unable to make a compromise?
you have much to learn yet.
there are no compromises about international LAW.
even children will have to learn that one day.
"Can anybody from the Serb team tell me why Greater Albania is such a sin."
Simple: The same reasons why Greater Serbia, Greater Greece, Greater Bulgaria, Greater Croatia, and Greater Germany are sins: they look at history, culture, and ethnicity only through the eyes of their adherents, and ignore, suppress, or attempt to eliminate the ethnicities, histories, and cultures of others. They distort the past, exaggerate one's own claims to land through ridiculous historical justifications, and pass off all other cultures as interlopers, and fifth column elements.
If the West successfully halted efforts for the creation of a Greater Serbia in the 1990s, what gives you even the slightest idea that anybody would be stupid enough to facilitate a Greater Albania?
Ahment, who said this was a compromise? If anything this model complicates matters for both Serbs and Albanians. Besides, the 1972 model never put to rest the original idea that the Federal Republic of Germany would one day reclaim all its lost territory from 1945. It was only after the two Germanies REUNITED that Poland wanted guarantees from Kohl that he wouldn't be looking to take back Pommerania, Silesia, and Danzig. Is this what you want for Kosovo? A condition where Serbia looks to one day reclaim the land? Hardly.
There needs to be a staright up or down vote on Kosovo - either give it independence, or not. and if it's given independence, we need to do it so the entire international body recognizes it, not just Washington, London, and Tirana.
Ischinger is trying to make this more complicated than it is. If Kosovo gets independence, give K Serbs unprecedented freedoms. If Kosovo remains in Serbia, give K Albanians unprecedented freedoms.
Kosova is de facto independent. You can call it whatever, even "The land out there, between lands and something, something". What's important is that Kosova will never, never, ever be controlled from Serbia or Serbs again. For as long as Kosova Independence is not accepted de jure, Serbia will never be able to fully be part of any Western Organisations whatsoever and the economy will only get worse. And just for the sake of it, we Albanians are willing to have this "problem" unresolved for as long as Serbia itself stays in a limbo forever. Good luck!
To B92
It’s ironic how you chose to not post my comments, yet you post comments such as "Offering the most widest range of autonomy is comprimising... becuase Albanians do not even deserve that" -Nikola
Indeed you are bias and don’t forget its USA money that finances your propagandistic operations
I have the feeling that the text and the title do not corespond.
B92 is only speaking about what this guy Alexander Rahr said.
Who is this guy Alexander Rahr.
He is the head of the Russian-German friends society.
Why should we even read what he has to say?
To Nikola.
Thank god is not up to you or your friends to decide what Kosova will get.
People of Kosova deserve to be free. They have sofered enough under many occupations.
Can anybody from the Serb team tell me why Greater Albania is such a sin.
By the way Greater Albania does not have to be one state. It can be two states as well. Being in tow states will make us stronger and greater within the reagon.
"The only way to prove them wrong is to have Serbs of Kosova fully integrated into the new state in a way that they really feel part of the new construct"
Spot on Village-Bey (back at you)...
But this is the stuff that ordinary good-willed people only dream about..Especially from those of us that have full bellies and secure jobs..
The reality on the ground is different, and would be almost impossible to uphold..
Tex Willer,
You say. "Everything that was proposed till now was UNACCEPTABLE to Seriba. Till when?
I say, everything that was proposed to Kosovo Albanians till now has been UNACCEPTABLE. Serbia has been bending over backwards to accomodate K-Albanians short of giving them independence.
No other race of people have been offered this much self government short of independence. Don't blame Serbia for failed talks.
Albanians can and should give a little too.
And yes, independence will be denied for ever. I hope that answers you question whicn was "Till when".
You cannot demand that someone hands over their terrotory to you just because you happen to be a majority on that terrotory currently. You were not always the majority, so your gradual ethnicl cleansing of the Serb population and increased birth rate should not be rewarded.
"There were great powers on both sides - one of them backed one part of Germany and the other backed the other part."
"That no longer exists because the Cold War is over," said Rahr,
it doesn't really look that to me. Regarding the timing Sir. you are right, it would have been much more similar if the issue was sort out in 1999 rather then now, but trying to be rational with the irrational serbians simply it doesn’t work, hence independence asap - and game over, turn to the future
Mike spot on again.
Half measure steps dividing sovereignty without some other kind of incentive cannot work.
Of the two option stated, the only feasible one is to give Serbs of Kosova unprecedented freedoms, something more inflated than the Antissari Plan. Serbia perceives this as a territorial dispute and doest believe into the idea of a multi-ethnic Kosova. The only way to prove them wrong is to have Serbs of Kosova fully integrated into the new state in a way that they really feel part of the new construct.
To have Albanians integrated in Serbia is not really an option. Even if we forget for a minute what has happened in the last two decades we cannot ignore the fact that the both sides have defined perceptions of each others. There is a clear demarcation of wills in both capitals. Belgrade doest and isn’t prepared to have Albanians as equals within Serbia and Prishtina certainly do not want to be part of Serbia.
Within the set of the given borders elevate the status of Kosova to that of supervised state with strong oversight. Problem solved.
I guess most of EU are set to recognize Kosova's Independence, except for some small countries like greece, cyprus, romania, and i think that Slowakia is changing its tone after an assault on Lajcak by RS Serbs. So typical of Serbs.
They are their own biggest enemy, sorry to say that.
Ahmet Isufi wrote "And who said on this site that Serbia is willing to compromise??????
What a joke.
(ahmet isufi, 31. October 2007 15:27)"
Jovan wrote
Ahmed, ....
Jovan
His name is Ahmet and not Ahmed as you call it. You been doing this for a while. It only shows your nationalistic ideology. It keeps your true beleifs implicit.
My dear friend you seem to worry a lot about the international LAW. Last time I checked the LAWS were not and should not be carved in stone. The LAWS are for people to make and change when is needed. In Kosova, as you know, serbian forces have comited ethnic clensing and crimes against humanity-that is why the international LAW will adjust accordingly to put what is right in place
"...not even a seat in EU and NATO... Greece, Romania, Cyprus, and Slovakia all NATO/EU members will block your entry
(Nikola, 31. October 2007 16:21)"
Funny,, they have to go versus, USA, Great Britain, France, Germany,...so do not put to much hope on those poor country.
Pijetro
It is only the political will that stands in the way of that inclusive construct. Kosova’s inhabitants could easily have multiple layers of identity that won’t conflict with each other. One could be Serb, Kosovan and European at the same time. The same goes for Albanians. Prior to 89 nearly all of Kosova was bilingual and that included the Serbs. Sociologically both ethnicities have much in common that we are led to believe. This could have been a case for delegative leadership but I guess we have the wrong politicians in place.
Dear Ron
I truly like you. You seem like a real passionate guy but I do hope you’ll stop that broken record technique.
The only thing that is new here is that Ischinger is finally insisting on something rather than coming up with new ideas every other day, only to change his mind a minute later.
As for Belgrade, well nothing new there: Belgrade rejects and so does Kosova and even if they talk till the end of days they will never agree on the issue of status.
The good thing is that we Albanians already control Kosova de facto, the US and the biggies in the EU support us and Serbia is leaning more and more in the direction of Russia, which means that it will start to enjoy les and less goodwill and sympathy on the part of the West.As for the talks and the Troika, well to put it bluntly they are just short term nuisances on our way to independence.
I would like to see RS and Serbia getting joined in one Country under the name Serbia like the two Germany's in the early 90s.
If this is what the german diplomat has in mind, i agree that this is how the German precedent should be interpreted and applied.
I have the feeling that the text and the title do not corespond.
B92 is only speaking about what this guy Alexander Rahr said.
Who is this guy Alexander Rahr.
He is the head of the Russian-German friends society.
Why should we even read what he has to say?
To Nikola.
Thank god is not up to you or your friends to decide what Kosova will get.
People of Kosova deserve to be free. They have sofered enough under many occupations.
Can anybody from the Serb team tell me why Greater Albania is such a sin.
By the way Greater Albania does not have to be one state. It can be two states as well. Being in tow states will make us stronger and greater within the reagon.
Kosova is de facto independent. You can call it whatever, even "The land out there, between lands and something, something". What's important is that Kosova will never, never, ever be controlled from Serbia or Serbs again. For as long as Kosova Independence is not accepted de jure, Serbia will never be able to fully be part of any Western Organisations whatsoever and the economy will only get worse. And just for the sake of it, we Albanians are willing to have this "problem" unresolved for as long as Serbia itself stays in a limbo forever. Good luck!
To B92
It’s ironic how you chose to not post my comments, yet you post comments such as "Offering the most widest range of autonomy is comprimising... becuase Albanians do not even deserve that" -Nikola
Indeed you are bias and don’t forget its USA money that finances your propagandistic operations
"And who said on this site that Serbia is willing to compromise??????
What a joke.
(ahmet isufi, 31. October 2007 15:27)"
Ahmed,
Serbia is very eager to have a compromise, but there is no playing around about territorial integrity. you should not make the mistake to missunderstand that as not being ready for compromise.
but, ...could it be that you want to present it that way? to blame Serbia ( in a terribly naive attempt ) by accusing the Serbs to be hard-liners unable to make a compromise?
you have much to learn yet.
there are no compromises about international LAW.
even children will have to learn that one day.
Mike spot on again.
Half measure steps dividing sovereignty without some other kind of incentive cannot work.
Of the two option stated, the only feasible one is to give Serbs of Kosova unprecedented freedoms, something more inflated than the Antissari Plan. Serbia perceives this as a territorial dispute and doest believe into the idea of a multi-ethnic Kosova. The only way to prove them wrong is to have Serbs of Kosova fully integrated into the new state in a way that they really feel part of the new construct.
To have Albanians integrated in Serbia is not really an option. Even if we forget for a minute what has happened in the last two decades we cannot ignore the fact that the both sides have defined perceptions of each others. There is a clear demarcation of wills in both capitals. Belgrade doest and isn’t prepared to have Albanians as equals within Serbia and Prishtina certainly do not want to be part of Serbia.
Within the set of the given borders elevate the status of Kosova to that of supervised state with strong oversight. Problem solved.
Lets imagine if the US were so "dumbya" to recognise an illegal recognition where will this result - it is not just a collapse of BiH, Georgia, Moldova but what too of the ethnic Russians in Latvia and Estonia - could they not call for an independent province/region or two where they are the majority ?
Does any rational commentator really think the EU wants to go the US way given such predictable repurcussions to other EU interests?
Ahment, who said this was a compromise? If anything this model complicates matters for both Serbs and Albanians. Besides, the 1972 model never put to rest the original idea that the Federal Republic of Germany would one day reclaim all its lost territory from 1945. It was only after the two Germanies REUNITED that Poland wanted guarantees from Kohl that he wouldn't be looking to take back Pommerania, Silesia, and Danzig. Is this what you want for Kosovo? A condition where Serbia looks to one day reclaim the land? Hardly.
There needs to be a staright up or down vote on Kosovo - either give it independence, or not. and if it's given independence, we need to do it so the entire international body recognizes it, not just Washington, London, and Tirana.
Ischinger is trying to make this more complicated than it is. If Kosovo gets independence, give K Serbs unprecedented freedoms. If Kosovo remains in Serbia, give K Albanians unprecedented freedoms.
"Can anybody from the Serb team tell me why Greater Albania is such a sin."
Simple: The same reasons why Greater Serbia, Greater Greece, Greater Bulgaria, Greater Croatia, and Greater Germany are sins: they look at history, culture, and ethnicity only through the eyes of their adherents, and ignore, suppress, or attempt to eliminate the ethnicities, histories, and cultures of others. They distort the past, exaggerate one's own claims to land through ridiculous historical justifications, and pass off all other cultures as interlopers, and fifth column elements.
If the West successfully halted efforts for the creation of a Greater Serbia in the 1990s, what gives you even the slightest idea that anybody would be stupid enough to facilitate a Greater Albania?
I guess most of EU are set to recognize Kosova's Independence, except for some small countries like greece, cyprus, romania, and i think that Slowakia is changing its tone after an assault on Lajcak by RS Serbs. So typical of Serbs.
They are their own biggest enemy, sorry to say that.
Ahmet Isufi wrote "And who said on this site that Serbia is willing to compromise??????
What a joke.
(ahmet isufi, 31. October 2007 15:27)"
Jovan wrote
Ahmed, ....
Jovan
His name is Ahmet and not Ahmed as you call it. You been doing this for a while. It only shows your nationalistic ideology. It keeps your true beleifs implicit.
My dear friend you seem to worry a lot about the international LAW. Last time I checked the LAWS were not and should not be carved in stone. The LAWS are for people to make and change when is needed. In Kosova, as you know, serbian forces have comited ethnic clensing and crimes against humanity-that is why the international LAW will adjust accordingly to put what is right in place
"The only way to prove them wrong is to have Serbs of Kosova fully integrated into the new state in a way that they really feel part of the new construct"
Spot on Village-Bey (back at you)...
But this is the stuff that ordinary good-willed people only dream about..Especially from those of us that have full bellies and secure jobs..
The reality on the ground is different, and would be almost impossible to uphold..
Tex Willer,
You say. "Everything that was proposed till now was UNACCEPTABLE to Seriba. Till when?
I say, everything that was proposed to Kosovo Albanians till now has been UNACCEPTABLE. Serbia has been bending over backwards to accomodate K-Albanians short of giving them independence.
No other race of people have been offered this much self government short of independence. Don't blame Serbia for failed talks.
Albanians can and should give a little too.
And yes, independence will be denied for ever. I hope that answers you question whicn was "Till when".
You cannot demand that someone hands over their terrotory to you just because you happen to be a majority on that terrotory currently. You were not always the majority, so your gradual ethnicl cleansing of the Serb population and increased birth rate should not be rewarded.
"...not even a seat in EU and NATO... Greece, Romania, Cyprus, and Slovakia all NATO/EU members will block your entry
(Nikola, 31. October 2007 16:21)"
Funny,, they have to go versus, USA, Great Britain, France, Germany,...so do not put to much hope on those poor country.
"There were great powers on both sides - one of them backed one part of Germany and the other backed the other part."
"That no longer exists because the Cold War is over," said Rahr,
it doesn't really look that to me. Regarding the timing Sir. you are right, it would have been much more similar if the issue was sort out in 1999 rather then now, but trying to be rational with the irrational serbians simply it doesn’t work, hence independence asap - and game over, turn to the future
Pijetro
It is only the political will that stands in the way of that inclusive construct. Kosova’s inhabitants could easily have multiple layers of identity that won’t conflict with each other. One could be Serb, Kosovan and European at the same time. The same goes for Albanians. Prior to 89 nearly all of Kosova was bilingual and that included the Serbs. Sociologically both ethnicities have much in common that we are led to believe. This could have been a case for delegative leadership but I guess we have the wrong politicians in place.
Dear Ron
I truly like you. You seem like a real passionate guy but I do hope you’ll stop that broken record technique.
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