Kosovo mediating Troika to meet in Vienna

Looks like the US are desperate to drop their false promise read the article;

"US Ponders Freezing Kosovo's Status until 2020"
http://www.birn.eu.com/en/110/10/5411/
Oh before anyone jumps and says I won't read Serb propaganda it is written by Krenar Gashi and Berat Buzhal. Strange how little has been said by Team Prishtina of this initiative which they must be aware of despite the denials.

"Serbia cannot accept any documents, including the Troika’s 14-point proposal, which does not clearly reject the possibility of unilaterally proclaimed and recognized independence for Kosovo, said Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremić"
What about Serbian stance against independence and unilaterlal proclamation of the hasty Serbian Constitution without asking the Kosovar Albanians that Kosova is part of Serbia, wasn't it a unilaterlal action? That happened when President Ahtisari was leading the negotiations between the two conflicting parties. So your argument Mr Jeremic are weak and nonsense and intend to prevent a natural course of Kosova's independent.

Looks like the 5th November will be very crucial in providing a way forward and creating the "negotiated and compromise" solution that would bring stability and much needed economic development while respecting international norms and laws that were argreed by the likes of the US, UK and France in 1999.

Lenard,
Why don't you nominate one of K-Albanians while you are advising the Serbs who to elect to parliament? It will have just as much impact on the Serbs.

Serbia is represented adequately and so far doing a good job.
Taking Serbian land is proving more difficult than the Albanians thought. Perhaps you have a plan B.

Your plan A ie. constantly accusing the Serbs of atrocities and ethnic cleansing is not working out for you. The reason this is not working out is because it is pure propaganda. A lie can only be sustained for so long and the truth has a way of coming out.

There is no evidence of ethnic cleansing by the Serbs because everyone knows now that the exodus happened after NATO started bombing. So if anyone is guilty of ethnic cleansing, it is NATO.
Conclusion. NATO committed the crimes that the Serbs are accused of and have lost their right to be in charge of Kosovo. Kosovo must go back to Serbian rule.

Nikshala to Princip: "Even by that proposal, it clearly states that in 12 years time there would be a referendum, which we know what the outcome will be (independence)."

It depends on whether the referendum is regional (in which case it has no bearing on Serbia having to accept its outcome) or national, in which case it is unlikely that the majority of Serbians (including Kosovans) will vote for independence even after 12 years.

In order to have a regionally binding referendum there has to already be some level of independence in place. It would have to be written into any agreement, which is as unlikely as Serbia accepting independence now. Freezing the situation would not guarantee this.

Mr. clean, the truth is strangely a multifaced thing. The truth is also that you're headed for a frozen conflict, decades of limbo. But when someone tells you the truth you say you will riot and cause war.
So that’s why they keep it from you.
A year ago frank wiser said, this will be over by jan. 2007 there's no other way. I believe u.s. really wanted that to happen and really tried but they just cant take you there.
The biggest imaginable concession you can expect from Belgrade would be partition but not necessarily along the ibar river lines. But that will not come for years.

Princip

Even by that proposal, it clearly states that in 12 years time there would be a referendum, which we know what the outcome will be (independence).

And if this proposal is correct, and if they would inject 7 billion euros a year, in 12 years time most of K. Serbs will want to be part of independent Kosovo, ...you'll probably have serbs from Serbia coming and claiming asylum in Kosovom, trying to get jobs!

Though I doubt this proposal would work in reality.

Princip: you are getting carried away. I think that the 12 year freeze is really speculation. If it weren't I would be amazed if the US and EU would be willing to pay 84 billion dollars in 12 years to Kosova, plus allow for a referendum at the end of that period. 7 billion is more than Serbia's GDP for God's sake. I guess a lot of countries in the world would be willing to suspend their independence for 12 years under those conditions. If it were up to me I would take it as long as the conditions are guaranteed. 84 billion can turn Kosova into Switzerland however steep the climb might be and 12 years from now Kosova would be the richest country in the Balkans.
But anyway, back to reality: according to Ischinger we only have to wait till Dec. 10th to know what the Troika decides. It sounds rather optimistic given that Russia and the US have diametrically opposed views.
And Jeremic, I must say the guy is really funny and I love his idea of flexibility: once we get our way we will be flexible, that's basically what he is saying.

teni,

'you' made the 1244 deal. You, the Albanians said yes to autonomy. That's it. Now don't try to get more!

Why are you breaking your promises?

This surely must be the really good news. With 7 billion a year we will be all queuing up for the next plane to Kosova.
Linking economics with stability has always been an American ideal and as such provides all of the right answers.
For inhabitants of Kosova, Serb and Albanians this would mean greater prosperity and progress but at the same time cooperation and trust building.
Kosova continues to have firm pledge of independence based on the populations will. Meanwhile Kosova will continue to be an independent entity in all but name until 2020. Albanians do not want independence just for the sake of it. Our desire to have a separate sovereign authority does not spring up by our wish to have a UN seat but because we cannot be associated with the same state that has shown its real intentions towards us in a manifest way.
All Serbian hopes of a rogue state that no one is prepared to invest will fall out of the window as soon as the first cheque is signed. Kosova has the potential to be a real functional muti-ethinic state with the help at hand.

"Once the threat of unilateral action has been removed, we will be flexible and whole-hearted in the negotiating process,” Jeremić told daily Blic."

Once independence is a done deal we Albanians we will be flexible and whole-hearted in the negotiating process. How does that sound Mr. Jeremic?

For the sake of the argument, if that proposal is real, than I think since Russia want to act like a big boy and a world player, than they should pay 1/3 of the 7 billion a year. So that 28 billion euros Russia has to give to Kosovo in next 12 years!

That proposal seems unrealistic!

This proposal would be even worse for Serbia, since the end result would be the same, ie.e independence, the only difference is that it will be a much richer independent Kosovo with a happy K. Serb population, and it will just give you another reason to hate us.

dardan,

In the 1990s a anti Milosovic presidential candidate BEGGED the Albanians to vote.
They did not.

Albananians want no solution. They want independence.

The break promises. While the West is doing the fighting and I (as a Dutch tax payer) are paying for them.

genc,

No Serbia is not yet a normal Western country. But they are on the right course.
Work on it and reintegrate in Serbia.

By the way, are Iraq, China and Turkey normal countries? Why no NATO intervention there?

Will of the people: again, I see your point, but hey, the will of the Serbian people is: Kosovo must stay part of Serbia.
You are a minority in Serbia. Accept it!
Like Germans are a minority in Belgium, Austrians in Italey,...

How is this guy Vuk kidding take independence of the table and then the Serb side will talk hole hardheadedly for a million years. About the weather ,European soccer finals ,the price of pigs if they had wings and could fly...etc. Serbia is stalling and waiting for some kind of miracle. I don't think the Serbs are in Santa Clauses good book or any ones else's for now. That they are not responsible for the years of conflict one after another. Take responsibility for your current politicians and the previous political leaders of your people how have made this an intractable mess. Serbia had one good leader in PM Zoran Dindic I hope you find one like him and elect them.

EA,

You are wrong. When Serbia changed its constitution Kosova was, and is now, just a Serbian province.

If Holland changes its constitution, must we consult other nations? I think not!

Kosovo is Serbian. And you know it. It may change. If both sides want a split, why not?

It is sad to read this comments posted overhere . I am amazed by thier way of thinking which is mostly in direction of someone is giving them something. Serbs must give them land, EU, USA to give them money. Is it anything in this earth that you can do something for yourselves? Can you imagine, they are dreaming of billions each year taken from the tax payers all over EU and USA. And what Albanians would do in return. Perhaps only sit at home and doing nothing, be just rich and spending money they got from some tax payers all over the world .What a dream they are dreaming.

I'm sure the 2020 postponment news is just a biased press tactic to get the Albanians on alert...wouldn't be surprised if those guys were paid by Belgrade to make such a story so that they can provoke unrest. Too bad Serbia has not had any luck in provoking riots in Kosovo, the Albanians have kept their calm in an excellent manner and it's about to be rewarded big time with the much sought independence.

As far as Serbia wanting the 14-points revised to reject unilateral independence, that would mean that the Albanians then would reject the entire 14-points package.

"Freeze Status for 12 Years",

Thanks Princip for the link.I think this is only a speculation as I doubt US and EU will pour money in Kosovo!
So far we "trusted" them and look in what a mess we are now!
I support the idea of my Party President Mr.Surroi that just before Christmas,Kosovo Assembly should decide about the date to declare the independence.So if they decide to declare it in 12 years,I will support them!
But the reality is:"Kosovo is on the way to indenpendence so no Princip,no Kostunica,no Russia,not even 10 million Serbs can't stop that!!!

Ron, how come you dont write any coments about how the dutch soldires protected and SAVED the SREBRENICA citisens from the serb aggression?? Really, I mean whats expected of us k-albanians to listen to a dutchman such as you Ron for an excelent "advice" regardin the freedom of Kosova/o very funny.. thanks b-92

Ron,

pls send me your banking account. I'll refund you every single cent you've paid for Kosovo from the first day you started paying. That said, the best way for Western taxpayers not to pay any longer for Kosovo, is the solution of Kosovo's status according to the will of its citizens. Otherwise, I'm afraid all of us will have to pay more for more intl. presence there.
As for promises, do you know anything we don't know? We know very well what were the promises: taking into account its people's will while deciding over Kosovo. Today we have 90% of Kosovars wanting independence. Were that around 50% your discourse wuold make sense, but at 90% (or more) you should admit the evidence.

Kosova is already de facto Independent. It will be so de jure in a matter of weeks. The Trojka is just trying to find an "absorbable" way of giving this "news" to the Serbian people.

It is like giving the bad news of a life loss to a family. The American guy has a straight tactic: Just tell them and lets go to the next door. The European guy has a more cautious approach, he is saying: I have to give it to them in a way that they don't pass out, so I don't need to call a doctor and have to deal with all those hospital bills later on. The Russian guy has a totally original idea, it goes like this: Don't tell them anything. Let them wander hopelessly in the graveyards forever.

It's time to tell people the truth.

Af for china, Iran, Turkey, Russia ecc. maybe NATO doesn't intervene becuase they're not in Europe, they don't threaten European stability, they don't threaten NATO's stability? You should know that better than me, because your country is a NATO memeber, not my country.

Princip let's wait a little.

I have read this article sometime ago Princip, so nothing new for people that read other media than RTS propaganda. Princip, you see that reading other media is not such a bad thing after all.

This plan is better than Supervised Independence since it brings money to Kosova and employment and after 12 years people in the referendum will come bring the decision.

Mr. Ahmeti draws attention as to how realistic is this plan. This proposal is just a proposal nothing else.

Serbia is this gains nothing. They still keep their failed politicians

@ princip uk
serbia has rejected a lot of proposals,
prishtina just can reject it as nonsense

Ron why don't you worry about the Kurds or Tibet or something? Might be a better way to spend your time since they are nowhere near independence yet. There is nothing more to discuss about Kosova's status my friend. Because as far as Kosova is concerned the new Serb constitution, just like 1244 are not the worth the paper they are written on. As for Holland: do you remember how Belgium became independent? Your King at the time, Willem II or III was not so enthusiastic about it and still it happened. The same is gonna happen in Kosova now.

"...There is no evidence of ethnic cleansing by the Serbs because everyone knows now that the exodus happened after NATO started bombing. So if anyone is guilty of ethnic cleansing, it is NATO.
Conclusion. NATO committed the crimes that the Serbs are accused of and have lost their right to be in charge of Kosovo. Kosovo must go back to Serbian rule.
(Peggy, 29. October 2007 13:28) "

You seem to watch to much censured serbian television, read more of b92, they are more realiable on the news then any of your other news chanel, so read more of it.
becouse according to you, NATO came and killed childrens, but according to eyewitneses, there were some serb cowards, with the help of their military who killed even 2 months old child.
The dreams of a ruling Serbia over other parts of ex-YU is over, and not only Putin, but noone can help you to free yourselves from those dremas, but yourself.

Lenard wrote:
"Serbia had one good leader in PM Zoran Dindic I hope you find one like him and elect them."
Yes, in fact, by now if he were still alive, Albanians would have had better representation in the current Serbian parliament, and dreams of independence would be gone.
Fortunately for the Albanians, thugs and Milosevic era crooks took centre stage..You really should be thanking Milosevic styled politicians..

Yes Lenard, stall tactics..
By then, everybody can get settled down, and flags and borders won't mean anything...

Who's to say?

EA wrote:
"So your argument Mr Jeremic are weak and nonsense and intend to prevent a natural course of Kosova's independent"
There's nothing NATURAL about the way this has happened EA...

LOL 12 years Freeze

Ron wrote: “If Holland changes its constitution, must we consult other nations? I think not!”
If Holland allows 100% of its residents with voting rights to vote for this constitution, it should not ask anyone. If it neglects 30% of its population and does not count their right to vote for that constitution, that constitution is null and void for that 30%.

Kate: "It depends on whether the referendum is regional (in which case it has no bearing on Serbia having to accept its outcome) or national, in which case it is unlikely that the majority of Serbians (including Kosovans) will vote for independence even after 12 years."

I guess Serbia can pull another quick one like they did with their constitution - organize a referendum about Kosova and refuse the Kosova’s residents’ right to vote.
Serbia LOST its right of "physical presence in Kosova" and everyone (including the new Slobo, Mr. Kostunica) knows that.

However, what Serbia refuses to understand that it lost its right of "judical presence in Kosova" the moment it forcefully evicted close to a million civilians from Kosova in 1999.

Ron we are not breaking any promises at all. Somewhere in those international deals you mention there is a statement about deciding the fate of the status of Kosova/o in the future. We're abiding to that fully. Not only that but we're keeping the promise we made to our killed sons and daughters, parents, grandparents,and relatives, for a free and independent Kosova/o. That promise matters much more than what a Kostunica, a Jermeic, a Tadic etc etc feel about Kosova/o while they're getting rich and sitting comfortably in their chairs in Belgrade.

Ron, a further topic:
If Holand changes its constitution, it should consult its citizens. Which didn't happen with the kosovars when Serbia chenged the constitution. It didn't allow them to vote! Hence, that constitution has no worth for the Kosovars. In all your comments you assume that Serbia is a normal, pacific, western democracy. Are you sure about that? don't you think, you need first to get a much better knowledge about Serbia and Kosovo before expressing such statements?

To Ron:
All what you post here I consider only as your personal statement and please don't hide behind 'Dutch'... I have Dutch friends (by origin and living in the Netherlands) who are very solidar with K-Albanians taking part even in some campaigns for Kosovo independence...
If you are so keen on Kurd issues why I don't see your posts on that articles?!

To bmrusila:
You are wrong... K-Albanians are not taking any land from anybody, they are not waiting money from USA and EU... They are on a way to declare internationaly recognized indepedent Kosovo. It is very obvious need for the support to a post war countries and countries in transition. I don't understand rancor of Serbs, even more when Serbia as causer of all wars in ex-Yu didn't pay any war indemnity till now...
Good luck Kosovo on your own way...

@Deni,

Yes, I am afriad to say you are taking something that it does not belong tou you, whatsoever. The money that you are going to get will maybe be given back in some century but not for my life probably. You Albanian peole really lack of selfcriticism. Don't you see where do you live, what kind of place is Kosovo nowadays for living. Before yoy started to rule out Kosovo with the war criminals in the main positoins it was decent place to live. You even can not judge what is good and what is wrong in Kosovo. According you and pósts overhere Kosovo seems like paradise to live. Not a once you criticezed the overal situation. Good luck to you and your independence declaration

Albano,
I don't watch ANY Serbian television. I don't live anywhere near Serbia, not even in Europe.
My information comes from reading newspapers from all over the world (translated in English of course).
I read articles written by independent journalists wirtten in various newspapers.
I watch documentaries. I use the internet in search of information from many different sources.
So before you accuse me of relying on Serbian "propaganda" I would suggest you take this into consideration.
I have noticed that every time someone disagrees with the Albanian point of view they are accused of falling for "Serbian propaganda".

I think there is more than enough Albanian propaganda out there and we all have to sift through it all.
If you think for one minute that you can silence people by simply accusing them of falling for "Serbian propaganda" you are very much mistaken. People are smarter than that.

A week ago a financial instituition said that kosovo would not be able to sustain itself with out external funding however you have one poster saying he would refund all the money that the westerners had dumped into Kosovo.( Ron,

pls send me your banking account. I'll refund you every single cent you've paid for Kosovo from the first day you started paying. That said, the best way for Western taxpayers not to pay any longer for Kosovo, is the solution of Kosovo's status according to the will of its citizens. Otherwise, I'm afraid all of us will have to pay more for more intl. presence there.
As for promises, do you know anything we don't know? We know very well what were the promises: taking into account its people's will while deciding over Kosovo. Today we have 90% of Kosovars wanting independence. Were that around 50% your discourse wuold make sense, but at 90% (or more) you should admit the evidence.
(genc, 29. October 2007 21:29) ) now since 90 percent of the people want independence first where is the funding coming from to run the government? Second since the infrastructure is in disarray where will the funding come from to correct. 3 Currently Kek is unable to provide sufficent power to run the factories to produce all of these jobs that are promised. No one does not want to answer or they are unable to answer these questions except to bring up forcibly removing millions of people, the massacres, the tortures etc. Leave the past in the past. Build for the future but some posters tend to provoke and run there mouths instead of giving solutions to solve the problems. Continue to stick your heads in the sand when these questions about funds and infrastructure. If you cannot answer then it has been push to the side WE WANT INDEPENDENCE when you get it what will you do with it. have a big party in Pristina have a hangover the next day and then what??? the Unknown Comic has spoken.

Ron,

the Germans accept being a minority in Belgium, the Austrians in Italy and so on. The way they have been treated in those countries differ very much from the way Serbia treated Kosovo. Had their homes been shelled from their state's army, and their villages destroyed, I doubt very much anyone could object to them: But pls. admit you're a minority in this land.
Last, the ALbanians are much more than a minority in Serbia+Kosovo. It's in Serbia's interest too, to get rid of the region. Read Mike's excellent comments (who sympathises with Serbs, but has all my sympathy) to clear your ideas. And pls. if you don't bear with the idea to pay taxes for Kosovo, then send me tyour banking account (and continue paying for Greece, Southern Italy, Portugal and the whole Eastern Europe.

Like i said no answers concerning the economy and for independence it is not going to happen for awhile. Sad but true.

"Serbia cannot accept any documents, including the Troika’s 14-point proposal, which does not clearly reject the possibility of unilaterally proclaimed and recognized independence for Kosovo, said Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremić"
What about Serbian stance against independence and unilaterlal proclamation of the hasty Serbian Constitution without asking the Kosovar Albanians that Kosova is part of Serbia, wasn't it a unilaterlal action? That happened when President Ahtisari was leading the negotiations between the two conflicting parties. So your argument Mr Jeremic are weak and nonsense and intend to prevent a natural course of Kosova's independent.

How is this guy Vuk kidding take independence of the table and then the Serb side will talk hole hardheadedly for a million years. About the weather ,European soccer finals ,the price of pigs if they had wings and could fly...etc. Serbia is stalling and waiting for some kind of miracle. I don't think the Serbs are in Santa Clauses good book or any ones else's for now. That they are not responsible for the years of conflict one after another. Take responsibility for your current politicians and the previous political leaders of your people how have made this an intractable mess. Serbia had one good leader in PM Zoran Dindic I hope you find one like him and elect them.

Ron, how come you dont write any coments about how the dutch soldires protected and SAVED the SREBRENICA citisens from the serb aggression?? Really, I mean whats expected of us k-albanians to listen to a dutchman such as you Ron for an excelent "advice" regardin the freedom of Kosova/o very funny.. thanks b-92

Looks like the 5th November will be very crucial in providing a way forward and creating the "negotiated and compromise" solution that would bring stability and much needed economic development while respecting international norms and laws that were argreed by the likes of the US, UK and France in 1999.

Looks like the US are desperate to drop their false promise read the article;

"US Ponders Freezing Kosovo's Status until 2020"
http://www.birn.eu.com/en/110/10/5411/
Oh before anyone jumps and says I won't read Serb propaganda it is written by Krenar Gashi and Berat Buzhal. Strange how little has been said by Team Prishtina of this initiative which they must be aware of despite the denials.

Lenard,
Why don't you nominate one of K-Albanians while you are advising the Serbs who to elect to parliament? It will have just as much impact on the Serbs.

Serbia is represented adequately and so far doing a good job.
Taking Serbian land is proving more difficult than the Albanians thought. Perhaps you have a plan B.

Your plan A ie. constantly accusing the Serbs of atrocities and ethnic cleansing is not working out for you. The reason this is not working out is because it is pure propaganda. A lie can only be sustained for so long and the truth has a way of coming out.

There is no evidence of ethnic cleansing by the Serbs because everyone knows now that the exodus happened after NATO started bombing. So if anyone is guilty of ethnic cleansing, it is NATO.
Conclusion. NATO committed the crimes that the Serbs are accused of and have lost their right to be in charge of Kosovo. Kosovo must go back to Serbian rule.

I'm sure the 2020 postponment news is just a biased press tactic to get the Albanians on alert...wouldn't be surprised if those guys were paid by Belgrade to make such a story so that they can provoke unrest. Too bad Serbia has not had any luck in provoking riots in Kosovo, the Albanians have kept their calm in an excellent manner and it's about to be rewarded big time with the much sought independence.

As far as Serbia wanting the 14-points revised to reject unilateral independence, that would mean that the Albanians then would reject the entire 14-points package.

Lenard wrote:
"Serbia had one good leader in PM Zoran Dindic I hope you find one like him and elect them."
Yes, in fact, by now if he were still alive, Albanians would have had better representation in the current Serbian parliament, and dreams of independence would be gone.
Fortunately for the Albanians, thugs and Milosevic era crooks took centre stage..You really should be thanking Milosevic styled politicians..

Yes Lenard, stall tactics..
By then, everybody can get settled down, and flags and borders won't mean anything...

Who's to say?

EA wrote:
"So your argument Mr Jeremic are weak and nonsense and intend to prevent a natural course of Kosova's independent"
There's nothing NATURAL about the way this has happened EA...

I have read this article sometime ago Princip, so nothing new for people that read other media than RTS propaganda. Princip, you see that reading other media is not such a bad thing after all.

This plan is better than Supervised Independence since it brings money to Kosova and employment and after 12 years people in the referendum will come bring the decision.

Mr. Ahmeti draws attention as to how realistic is this plan. This proposal is just a proposal nothing else.

Serbia is this gains nothing. They still keep their failed politicians

"Freeze Status for 12 Years",

Thanks Princip for the link.I think this is only a speculation as I doubt US and EU will pour money in Kosovo!
So far we "trusted" them and look in what a mess we are now!
I support the idea of my Party President Mr.Surroi that just before Christmas,Kosovo Assembly should decide about the date to declare the independence.So if they decide to declare it in 12 years,I will support them!
But the reality is:"Kosovo is on the way to indenpendence so no Princip,no Kostunica,no Russia,not even 10 million Serbs can't stop that!!!

"Once the threat of unilateral action has been removed, we will be flexible and whole-hearted in the negotiating process,” Jeremić told daily Blic."

Once independence is a done deal we Albanians we will be flexible and whole-hearted in the negotiating process. How does that sound Mr. Jeremic?

Ron why don't you worry about the Kurds or Tibet or something? Might be a better way to spend your time since they are nowhere near independence yet. There is nothing more to discuss about Kosova's status my friend. Because as far as Kosova is concerned the new Serb constitution, just like 1244 are not the worth the paper they are written on. As for Holland: do you remember how Belgium became independent? Your King at the time, Willem II or III was not so enthusiastic about it and still it happened. The same is gonna happen in Kosova now.

Ron we are not breaking any promises at all. Somewhere in those international deals you mention there is a statement about deciding the fate of the status of Kosova/o in the future. We're abiding to that fully. Not only that but we're keeping the promise we made to our killed sons and daughters, parents, grandparents,and relatives, for a free and independent Kosova/o. That promise matters much more than what a Kostunica, a Jermeic, a Tadic etc etc feel about Kosova/o while they're getting rich and sitting comfortably in their chairs in Belgrade.

This surely must be the really good news. With 7 billion a year we will be all queuing up for the next plane to Kosova.
Linking economics with stability has always been an American ideal and as such provides all of the right answers.
For inhabitants of Kosova, Serb and Albanians this would mean greater prosperity and progress but at the same time cooperation and trust building.
Kosova continues to have firm pledge of independence based on the populations will. Meanwhile Kosova will continue to be an independent entity in all but name until 2020. Albanians do not want independence just for the sake of it. Our desire to have a separate sovereign authority does not spring up by our wish to have a UN seat but because we cannot be associated with the same state that has shown its real intentions towards us in a manifest way.
All Serbian hopes of a rogue state that no one is prepared to invest will fall out of the window as soon as the first cheque is signed. Kosova has the potential to be a real functional muti-ethinic state with the help at hand.

Princip

Even by that proposal, it clearly states that in 12 years time there would be a referendum, which we know what the outcome will be (independence).

And if this proposal is correct, and if they would inject 7 billion euros a year, in 12 years time most of K. Serbs will want to be part of independent Kosovo, ...you'll probably have serbs from Serbia coming and claiming asylum in Kosovom, trying to get jobs!

Though I doubt this proposal would work in reality.

Princip let's wait a little.

@ princip uk
serbia has rejected a lot of proposals,
prishtina just can reject it as nonsense

Princip: you are getting carried away. I think that the 12 year freeze is really speculation. If it weren't I would be amazed if the US and EU would be willing to pay 84 billion dollars in 12 years to Kosova, plus allow for a referendum at the end of that period. 7 billion is more than Serbia's GDP for God's sake. I guess a lot of countries in the world would be willing to suspend their independence for 12 years under those conditions. If it were up to me I would take it as long as the conditions are guaranteed. 84 billion can turn Kosova into Switzerland however steep the climb might be and 12 years from now Kosova would be the richest country in the Balkans.
But anyway, back to reality: according to Ischinger we only have to wait till Dec. 10th to know what the Troika decides. It sounds rather optimistic given that Russia and the US have diametrically opposed views.
And Jeremic, I must say the guy is really funny and I love his idea of flexibility: once we get our way we will be flexible, that's basically what he is saying.

EA,

You are wrong. When Serbia changed its constitution Kosova was, and is now, just a Serbian province.

If Holland changes its constitution, must we consult other nations? I think not!

Kosovo is Serbian. And you know it. It may change. If both sides want a split, why not?

For the sake of the argument, if that proposal is real, than I think since Russia want to act like a big boy and a world player, than they should pay 1/3 of the 7 billion a year. So that 28 billion euros Russia has to give to Kosovo in next 12 years!

That proposal seems unrealistic!

This proposal would be even worse for Serbia, since the end result would be the same, ie.e independence, the only difference is that it will be a much richer independent Kosovo with a happy K. Serb population, and it will just give you another reason to hate us.

Nikshala to Princip: "Even by that proposal, it clearly states that in 12 years time there would be a referendum, which we know what the outcome will be (independence)."

It depends on whether the referendum is regional (in which case it has no bearing on Serbia having to accept its outcome) or national, in which case it is unlikely that the majority of Serbians (including Kosovans) will vote for independence even after 12 years.

In order to have a regionally binding referendum there has to already be some level of independence in place. It would have to be written into any agreement, which is as unlikely as Serbia accepting independence now. Freezing the situation would not guarantee this.

Ron wrote: “If Holland changes its constitution, must we consult other nations? I think not!”
If Holland allows 100% of its residents with voting rights to vote for this constitution, it should not ask anyone. If it neglects 30% of its population and does not count their right to vote for that constitution, that constitution is null and void for that 30%.

Kate: "It depends on whether the referendum is regional (in which case it has no bearing on Serbia having to accept its outcome) or national, in which case it is unlikely that the majority of Serbians (including Kosovans) will vote for independence even after 12 years."

I guess Serbia can pull another quick one like they did with their constitution - organize a referendum about Kosova and refuse the Kosova’s residents’ right to vote.
Serbia LOST its right of "physical presence in Kosova" and everyone (including the new Slobo, Mr. Kostunica) knows that.

However, what Serbia refuses to understand that it lost its right of "judical presence in Kosova" the moment it forcefully evicted close to a million civilians from Kosova in 1999.

Ron,

pls send me your banking account. I'll refund you every single cent you've paid for Kosovo from the first day you started paying. That said, the best way for Western taxpayers not to pay any longer for Kosovo, is the solution of Kosovo's status according to the will of its citizens. Otherwise, I'm afraid all of us will have to pay more for more intl. presence there.
As for promises, do you know anything we don't know? We know very well what were the promises: taking into account its people's will while deciding over Kosovo. Today we have 90% of Kosovars wanting independence. Were that around 50% your discourse wuold make sense, but at 90% (or more) you should admit the evidence.

Ron, a further topic:
If Holand changes its constitution, it should consult its citizens. Which didn't happen with the kosovars when Serbia chenged the constitution. It didn't allow them to vote! Hence, that constitution has no worth for the Kosovars. In all your comments you assume that Serbia is a normal, pacific, western democracy. Are you sure about that? don't you think, you need first to get a much better knowledge about Serbia and Kosovo before expressing such statements?

Kosova is already de facto Independent. It will be so de jure in a matter of weeks. The Trojka is just trying to find an "absorbable" way of giving this "news" to the Serbian people.

It is like giving the bad news of a life loss to a family. The American guy has a straight tactic: Just tell them and lets go to the next door. The European guy has a more cautious approach, he is saying: I have to give it to them in a way that they don't pass out, so I don't need to call a doctor and have to deal with all those hospital bills later on. The Russian guy has a totally original idea, it goes like this: Don't tell them anything. Let them wander hopelessly in the graveyards forever.

It's time to tell people the truth.

genc,

No Serbia is not yet a normal Western country. But they are on the right course.
Work on it and reintegrate in Serbia.

By the way, are Iraq, China and Turkey normal countries? Why no NATO intervention there?

Will of the people: again, I see your point, but hey, the will of the Serbian people is: Kosovo must stay part of Serbia.
You are a minority in Serbia. Accept it!
Like Germans are a minority in Belgium, Austrians in Italey,...

Like i said no answers concerning the economy and for independence it is not going to happen for awhile. Sad but true.

LOL 12 years Freeze

teni,

'you' made the 1244 deal. You, the Albanians said yes to autonomy. That's it. Now don't try to get more!

Why are you breaking your promises?

To Ron:
All what you post here I consider only as your personal statement and please don't hide behind 'Dutch'... I have Dutch friends (by origin and living in the Netherlands) who are very solidar with K-Albanians taking part even in some campaigns for Kosovo independence...
If you are so keen on Kurd issues why I don't see your posts on that articles?!

To bmrusila:
You are wrong... K-Albanians are not taking any land from anybody, they are not waiting money from USA and EU... They are on a way to declare internationaly recognized indepedent Kosovo. It is very obvious need for the support to a post war countries and countries in transition. I don't understand rancor of Serbs, even more when Serbia as causer of all wars in ex-Yu didn't pay any war indemnity till now...
Good luck Kosovo on your own way...

Ron,

the Germans accept being a minority in Belgium, the Austrians in Italy and so on. The way they have been treated in those countries differ very much from the way Serbia treated Kosovo. Had their homes been shelled from their state's army, and their villages destroyed, I doubt very much anyone could object to them: But pls. admit you're a minority in this land.
Last, the ALbanians are much more than a minority in Serbia+Kosovo. It's in Serbia's interest too, to get rid of the region. Read Mike's excellent comments (who sympathises with Serbs, but has all my sympathy) to clear your ideas. And pls. if you don't bear with the idea to pay taxes for Kosovo, then send me tyour banking account (and continue paying for Greece, Southern Italy, Portugal and the whole Eastern Europe.

Af for china, Iran, Turkey, Russia ecc. maybe NATO doesn't intervene becuase they're not in Europe, they don't threaten European stability, they don't threaten NATO's stability? You should know that better than me, because your country is a NATO memeber, not my country.

@Deni,

Yes, I am afriad to say you are taking something that it does not belong tou you, whatsoever. The money that you are going to get will maybe be given back in some century but not for my life probably. You Albanian peole really lack of selfcriticism. Don't you see where do you live, what kind of place is Kosovo nowadays for living. Before yoy started to rule out Kosovo with the war criminals in the main positoins it was decent place to live. You even can not judge what is good and what is wrong in Kosovo. According you and pósts overhere Kosovo seems like paradise to live. Not a once you criticezed the overal situation. Good luck to you and your independence declaration

It is sad to read this comments posted overhere . I am amazed by thier way of thinking which is mostly in direction of someone is giving them something. Serbs must give them land, EU, USA to give them money. Is it anything in this earth that you can do something for yourselves? Can you imagine, they are dreaming of billions each year taken from the tax payers all over EU and USA. And what Albanians would do in return. Perhaps only sit at home and doing nothing, be just rich and spending money they got from some tax payers all over the world .What a dream they are dreaming.

dardan,

In the 1990s a anti Milosovic presidential candidate BEGGED the Albanians to vote.
They did not.

Albananians want no solution. They want independence.

The break promises. While the West is doing the fighting and I (as a Dutch tax payer) are paying for them.

Mr. clean, the truth is strangely a multifaced thing. The truth is also that you're headed for a frozen conflict, decades of limbo. But when someone tells you the truth you say you will riot and cause war.
So that’s why they keep it from you.
A year ago frank wiser said, this will be over by jan. 2007 there's no other way. I believe u.s. really wanted that to happen and really tried but they just cant take you there.
The biggest imaginable concession you can expect from Belgrade would be partition but not necessarily along the ibar river lines. But that will not come for years.

A week ago a financial instituition said that kosovo would not be able to sustain itself with out external funding however you have one poster saying he would refund all the money that the westerners had dumped into Kosovo.( Ron,

pls send me your banking account. I'll refund you every single cent you've paid for Kosovo from the first day you started paying. That said, the best way for Western taxpayers not to pay any longer for Kosovo, is the solution of Kosovo's status according to the will of its citizens. Otherwise, I'm afraid all of us will have to pay more for more intl. presence there.
As for promises, do you know anything we don't know? We know very well what were the promises: taking into account its people's will while deciding over Kosovo. Today we have 90% of Kosovars wanting independence. Were that around 50% your discourse wuold make sense, but at 90% (or more) you should admit the evidence.
(genc, 29. October 2007 21:29) ) now since 90 percent of the people want independence first where is the funding coming from to run the government? Second since the infrastructure is in disarray where will the funding come from to correct. 3 Currently Kek is unable to provide sufficent power to run the factories to produce all of these jobs that are promised. No one does not want to answer or they are unable to answer these questions except to bring up forcibly removing millions of people, the massacres, the tortures etc. Leave the past in the past. Build for the future but some posters tend to provoke and run there mouths instead of giving solutions to solve the problems. Continue to stick your heads in the sand when these questions about funds and infrastructure. If you cannot answer then it has been push to the side WE WANT INDEPENDENCE when you get it what will you do with it. have a big party in Pristina have a hangover the next day and then what??? the Unknown Comic has spoken.

"...There is no evidence of ethnic cleansing by the Serbs because everyone knows now that the exodus happened after NATO started bombing. So if anyone is guilty of ethnic cleansing, it is NATO.
Conclusion. NATO committed the crimes that the Serbs are accused of and have lost their right to be in charge of Kosovo. Kosovo must go back to Serbian rule.
(Peggy, 29. October 2007 13:28) "

You seem to watch to much censured serbian television, read more of b92, they are more realiable on the news then any of your other news chanel, so read more of it.
becouse according to you, NATO came and killed childrens, but according to eyewitneses, there were some serb cowards, with the help of their military who killed even 2 months old child.
The dreams of a ruling Serbia over other parts of ex-YU is over, and not only Putin, but noone can help you to free yourselves from those dremas, but yourself.

Albano,
I don't watch ANY Serbian television. I don't live anywhere near Serbia, not even in Europe.
My information comes from reading newspapers from all over the world (translated in English of course).
I read articles written by independent journalists wirtten in various newspapers.
I watch documentaries. I use the internet in search of information from many different sources.
So before you accuse me of relying on Serbian "propaganda" I would suggest you take this into consideration.
I have noticed that every time someone disagrees with the Albanian point of view they are accused of falling for "Serbian propaganda".

I think there is more than enough Albanian propaganda out there and we all have to sift through it all.
If you think for one minute that you can silence people by simply accusing them of falling for "Serbian propaganda" you are very much mistaken. People are smarter than that.