Troika considers introducing new text

SUPERVISED AUTONOMY sounds like the best compromise solution. It will keep the Serbs quiet while allowing the Albanians virtual independence to govern themselves, all under the watchful supervising eyes of the EU & NATO.

Serbia has gone as far as it can on the compromised solution.
The next step would be to agree to independence.
How can this possibly be called a compromise? It is just another forced independence wrapped up in a different wrapper.

Looks like it has gone back to square one.
Supervised independence for Kosovo. This is going right back to the beginning.

They can call it whatever they want but independence is what they are pushing.

So NATO has controlled Kosovo for 8 year. What have they accomplished in that time? Nothing. Refugees have not been able to return and the churches are still being destroyed. Serbian children are needing NATO escort to schools. Just because NATO has been calling the shots for a few years doesn't mean they own the land.
The landlord can always say they want to take back possession of their property and the tenant has to go.

Nobody gave NATO the deed to the land. UN is needed to approve transfer of ownership and that is not going to happen.
Let's get ready for another year of talks.

"He added that Serbia, on the other hand, had to accept that it had not had any control over Kosovo for the last eight years. "

Ya that's because you have been occupying the Serbian province for 8 years now.

Ishinger,
In Albanian we say "Time to put the hand on the wound". Kosovar Albanians have done many compromises by accepting the Ahtisari Plan. We are talking now about the Sovereignity and the independent of Kosova. That is the MAIN ISSUE. Compromises can be achieved only if you respect the other party rather than belittling it. Compromises can be in mutual respect of echnic minorities in two independent countries Kosova and Serbia and their joint future in the EU if Serbia.

Ratko,

Indeed. Kosovo is becoming a self forphilling provecy.

We intervene, UN troops there, so hey, let's make it independent.
But that was NOT the deal. We all know that.

Let's stop this disaster.
I am doing what I can in Holland.

Albanians, Serbs, join me in stopping Kosovo independende.

This Dutchman is doing his best for all of you.

Especially to all Albanians: please join my strugggle. It is for your best interest too!

To all the Albanian posters here: Is there really a point to us discussing whether Kosova is gonna become independent?
Such discussions have become superfluous. All K-Albanian leaders have already made it clear that they won't accept anything else, e.g Sejdiu, Çeku, Thaçi, Surroi etc; the US has said the same and now even Ischinger confirmed it.
This is a compromise solution as far as we are concerned because it is not full independence but a supervised one.
So what's the point of even discussing such things anymore?. The only things worth discussing now are how independence will be achieved, i.e. unilaterally or not, and what will happen to the North and Presheva.
Let Kate and Princip and Dragan or whoever, discuss the legal niceties of the situation, and resolution 1244 because they are of no interest whatsoever to us at this time.

K. Albanians would want an agreed and accepted solution more than anyone else. But it is just not possible! We will never compromise on independence from Serbia, and it looks like Serbia won't compomise on wanting to retain Kosovo as part of Serbia.

Ischinger forgets that it is not up to the Kosovan Unity Team to negotiate on independence. They simply do not have the mandate to do that from the population of Kosovo. The moment they were to compomise on independence and accept anything less, they will be overthrown within a day. They only sustainable solution, is the one acceptable to the population of Kosovo, since it is THEM that live there. Anything else is asking for trouble.

So unless Serbia, and others can convice the K.albanian popualtion of Kosovo to change their minds by 10th of December, than the only way forward is independence. So far Serbia is doing a great job! In the end the will of people will prevail.

EA, the Ahtisaari Plan is not a "compromise", it's an "obligation". Most civilized societies would view this as your cover charge just to get into the negotiation room. If anything, a resulting compromise will be "minimal independence" with Serb enclaves all but separated from Pristina, and the EU with heavy administrative executive rights over the whole province for the foreseeable future.

All the markins are on the wall for anyone that has two eyes. I don't care if is called supervised or controled Independence, as long as Serbia will not have anything to do with Kosova state its OK by me.

Mike,

Ahtisari spend a lot of time with both the Kosova's and Serbia's delegations to reach of compromise. If you read what the Serbs were "offering" originally in these negotiatuions compare to the negotiations now you will be laughing now to see the Serbs "change of hearts" and what they are willing to "offer".

Mike, the fact and the reality is that the Serbian government has nothing to offer. Why you might ask. Because Serbia lost physically Kosova since 1999 and I am sure that you know how that happened. We are in a situation now that we have NATO forces on the ground and Serbia as a sovereign country forced for whatever reason banned to exercise its "sovereignity". I hope you agree on that. Taking into account all considerations mainly political and historical, demographical, geographical I found it UNREALISTIC to ask the Kosovar Albanians to be Serbian citizens. The realistic way forward is two independent states and exact respect rights for the Serb minority in Kosova and the Albanians living in Presevo, Bujanovc, and Medvegja. If there is real good will and realistic approach by the Serbian government it would be a success. No war and living in peace. All the desplaced people can return home safely and the politician to work together for building bridges between the two independent states.

It simply not true that churches are being destroyed and serb children are escorted by NATO. You beleive what you want but reality on the ground is different. Come and see it for yourself and not to spread propaganda from miles away.

One thing I've understood from all this Troika thing is that they can't do anything about this mess...so they just try to save-face every time, with lame plans like the 14 points, and also with dreamy statements that somehow compromise will be reached, even though it's been almost 3 months that the negotiations have started, and they're on their final month still at ground zero.

I hope the taxpayers that funded this Troika sham are fuming right now, because this lying trio is making alot of money by talking smack and getting nothing done!

What 50% are you talking about?? There is no 50% between autonomy and independence! Is there some new concept out there that we don't know about?

The comprimise IS the Ahtisaari plan, and the Troika better realise that before their mandate expires on December 10th.

The Troika seems to be in a bigger denial than Belgrade.

Mike - The Ahtisaari Plan is an obligation up to the point where it protects minorities...but let's not forget that the Albanians had to accept having different symbols, a different anthem, a different flag that includes symbols from all minorities. Does the EU or US have that? I'm sure if they had a flag like that, there'd be turtles and frogs and eagles and salammanders all over those flags.

And still the Albanian side agreed to it. In addition, they also agreed to not have a union with Albania, which is not an obligation because every country has the right to decide who they wanna unify or merge with.

Yet, the Albanians made all these compromises. Meanwhile, Serbia is still on the Milo-rodeo and doesn't even try to come down and reach the ground.

Dan - What you're saying is 100% independence, but the maps staying the same.

So basically people who don't deserve to be recognized properly? Why? Are they 2nd class world citizens or animals or plants or amoebaes or what?

the right man at the right place ,this guy,isn't?

I do agree with nick shala,about independence,the legitimity of our team and the consequences to any other compromise.
We are fed up with all these tricks,fed up with these negociations,fed up with serbs pretentions;
Enought is enought!
independence now!

"All the markins are on the wall for anyone that has two eyes. I don't care if is called supervised or controled Independence, as long as Serbia will not have anything to do with Kosova state its OK by me.
(ahmet isufi, 26. October 2007 14:18) "

You don't need those 2 eyes to see that what you predict can only apply south of the Ibar.

"The landlord can always say they want to take back possession of their property and the tenant has to go.
Nobody gave NATO the deed to the land. UN is needed to approve transfer of ownership and that is not going to happen."

This real estate analogy is a little funny. The aforementioned landlord actually doesn't have its own name on the deed, but that of someone else. Yugoslavia's!
If you inherited the deed of a house from your deceased father, you could simply go and get a new copy of the deed under your name as long as there is no contest, in which case a court decides. Now the real test of Serbia's inheritance claim, would be: could Serbia go to the UN and obtain a copy of the Res 1244, having its name and not the name of Yugoslavia on it? Because if it can't, it would be in the same situation as that of an impostor claiming to hold the deed of someone else's house.

The sole reason that Serbia has presented to keep Kosova is what's been repeated here countless times, that piece of paper, "the deed", res 1244, that represents according to many here the intl law. Never mind that Serbia together with Russia have in many other cases ignored, side-stepped or simply and brutally violated the intl law and many other UNSC resolutions. But even under this selective application of the intl law it has serious problems. As a Serb poster before pointed out, Res 1244 itself is inconsistent referring to the Rambouillet "agreement", it has many other holes and presently is outdated as it refers to an entity that doesn't exist, while the claim is being made by an entity that is not even mentioned in the resolution. It doesn't matter if Serbia inherited a UN seat, because since both Serbia and Montenegro got a UN seat, there was no contest, no problem, no issue. Same for the rest of the assets that they split between them. You can claim to inherit anything you want, from the Kilimanjaro to the North Pole if you want, as long there is no contest. And Kosova is within every right to contest such a claim by Serbia, there's nothing illegal about it. We're not talking here simply about a seat, but about the lives of two million people, that clearly, expressivly and without a doubt do not recognize such a claim.

And this brings us to the nature of the international law. It is not like a state law, where you have judges and cops and prisons to enforce the letter of the law. Intl Law represents at best, an agreement, a political and diplomatic agreement among some interested parties at a given time about a given issue. And its formulation is the best reflection of the level of the agreement. Over time, as situations, circumstances and interests change, such an agreement might or might not be possible anymore, rendering a certain law, clause or resolution, outdated, irrelevant, therefore not applicable. In 1999, Res 1244, represented the level of the agreement among the main interested powers, ie NATO powers, US/Europeans and Russia over what to do with Kosova at that specific time. Had they not agreed on anything, Res 1244, would've not even existed at all. However the level of the agreement that could be reached, expressed in 1244, was that Kosova was going to be governed by UNMIK handling local and foreign policy and protected by NATO, with gradually passing of competences to a local government. It was agreed that Yugoslavia (made of Serbia and Montenegro), and NOT just Serbia, would maintain a very formal and symbolic level of sovereignty, and that a status process would be undertaken in the future. The authors could've simply assigned this sovereignty over to Serbia, but they didn't. They could've stated in 1244 that Kosova is a part of Serbia, as the Yugoslav negotiators wanted. But they didn't. Why didn't they? Why is Serbia not mentioned in the Res 1244, not even one single time, even though Serbia existed at the time as the Federation's Republic that claimed to have Kosova as part of its own Republic. Because Serbia lost that argument and it was agreed that Kosova wasn't going to be a part of Serbia, but at best only Yugoslavia could claim a symbolic sovereignty over Kosova. That clearly expressed the level of the agreement, a middle-of-the-road meeting of the various viewpoints where some thought that in the future, Kosova could be an equal Republic of the Federation together with Serbia and Montenegro, or it could be independent. However this was defered until a later time, clearly expressed in the resolution. Now you can't come back 8 years later, put an orange in front of my eyes and pretend it to be a tangerine. Because it is not. The sovereignty was assigned to Yugoslavia, not Serbia, a very crucial point. And with a very specific reason why it was not assigned to Serbia.

Now 8 years later, that agreement, 1244, together with the circumstances and the situations has changed. Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore. Different parties view the future of Kosova differently. The intl community is in the process of finding a new agreement, and a universally accepted UN envoy made the recomendation of the independent Kosova. Please tell me what is illegal about it? If a new agreement will be found among all the parties, a new Resolution will enshrine this agreement, and if not, there's nothing that prevents or forces independent states to recognize Kosova as independent or withhold such recognition. No intl law or resolution and such, that prevents individual states from recognizing other states. In fact this very recognition would indicate the lack of the agreement and render the previous 1999 agreement, Res 1244, obsolete and ineffective.

It seems that many Serbs here have taken the actions of the IC the wrong way. It is not as they think that the US or the European powers are begging Serbia to "sign off the deed" because they have no other way, and Serbia can simply ignore it. The much maligned Ahtisaari, Ischinger and the rest of the western diplomats have in fact been doing Serbia a favor, by allowing it to have a say, to express its interests and to find a modus vivendi in the new situation, and to make the separation of Kosova and Serbia such that it will provide for peace and stability in the region, so that in the future normal relations betw them could also be possible. It's the responsible, sensible and positive thing to do. They have been patient and swallowed their pride to start the negotiations over and over and over again. When you sober up, you'll see that they are not Albanians, nor do they work simply for Albanians' interests, rather for the interests of peace and progress in the region, and to pull the region out of poverty, instability and into the mainstream Europe. Russia on the other hand has other interests. It suits her just fine to have the region in chaos and insecurity, to leave the Kosovars in poverty, unemployment and hunger, to have a frozen conflict, possibly to dupplicate a Palestinian conflict. But I would like to ask the Serbs who truly love their people: Would you rather want your country to resemble Israel or the Czech Republic?

"t simply not true that churches are being destroyed and serb children are escorted by NATO. You beleive what you want but reality on the ground is different. Come and see it for yourself and not to spread propaganda from miles away.
(ahmet isufi, 26. October 2007 15:05)"

Ahmed, you seem to be the only one who is denying the truth here.

you shoul REALLY feel ashamed. all serbian and international sources are showing only videos of mechanical dummies being transported in armored vehicles to school or to the churches?

you seem to deny what nobody else today even tries to deny.

no comment.
my next comment will be:
** I told you so**

hey dutchman , do I need to refresh your memory,no offense but (SREBRENICA) was heleped by dutch soldires... do you know where the civialans are now?? thanks for trying to help us albanians but we prefer to stick with the Americans.

Jetoni,

But why make an exception for Kosovo? Why no independence for Kurdistand and Tibet?

Please follow the path of international law!

He said it all! For one that understands he is saying "Supervised Indipendence" and get over it.

“American definition of independence was the same as that of Europe’s and did not imply uncontrolled independence, rather a very strict and controlled independence, under EU and NATO supervision”

“understand that a unilateral proclamation of Kosovo independence is not enough.”

“They do not live on an island in the Pacific. What will happen if Kosovo becomes independent one day and Serbia decides to close its borders with Kosovo? That is why an agreement is needed for the development of Kosovo,”

”He added that Serbia, on the other hand, had to accept that it had not had any control over Kosovo for the last eight years”

“The current situation is that Belgrade can no longer realistically expect Kosovo to be under its supervision again,”

Compromise between Independence and Autonomy is Supervised Independence don’t you think so. S-Independence is the best option that Serbs will get. Serbian delegation knows this but is trying to get better bargains than offered up to now. Once Serbia signs the SSA agreement than status will be solved.
Do you really think that this Serbian delegation thinks more than Milosevic for K-Serbs. They are the same, if not worst than Milosevic, K-Serbs say.
Peggy, your posting sounds like RTS propaganda

To Ron

We dont need your help ron. This is not Srebrenica! Go help those folks, not us! You dutch proved in the past how you "help" people...just stay out of this! Let Albanians and Serb solve thir own problems!

Reading all the comments, is interesting to see how the negotiation process in those high level meetings in Vienna or New York or wherever, do not change so much from this modest forum where ideas and cogitation are shared. In a invented scenario "EA" is playing "Sejdiu" and "peggy" as Tadic. Everything is so polarized. + Vs -, independence Vs Autonomy, Serbs Vs. Albanians. However this affiliation with the respective sides involved in this mash up has logic and is not a surprise. The surprise is what we are looking for. Everyone who feel serb won;t allow the division of kosovo because will betray some crucial natinalistic principles. the same for albanains... no one is able to resign from the strict definition INDEPENDECE because will be a traitor. All this,is causing an open attack to the logic and realistic possibilities for genuine compromise. It opens the door for unilateral actions that will keep the conflict always tense and the region a boiling dish.
Everyone is tired, and this affects negatively the so called "negotiation" which in my opinion is just a hypocrite acting.... Everyone is sick about all this wasted energy of albanians, serbs, EU community ... a little bit less is US and Russia. However let me say that although the International Community is striving in the vain for a possible solution... the game will be only between us... serbs and albanians. We can not avoid each other however the solution can be. We are next door old neighbors that have always been looking to make difficult the life of each other...seems that it won;t change. Nevertheless a good solution is not the one that is "right". A good solution is a durable one which can secure the basis of stability in this region screwed up by wars and hate... The keyword for acceptable solution is Tolerance... It can startf from everyone...

Ischinger should know that there is a international supervision needed, and Belgrade doesn´t intend to have any supervision, since it is offering broad autonomy.

it is like speaking to deaf ears... but, that won´t change the facts.

there is no independence, and Ischinger knows it. the Albanians will know it too, if not today, certainly in the future.

Look people:
The headline reads "Troika considers introducing new text"..

Why is everybody reading into it so deeply? After eight years of boondoggle, you're still at the same spot!!
How hard is it to stick to the topic?
Everybody's posts (although i can't understand what planet some of the Albanian posters come from), seem to run around in circles, and deviate from the main article..

I'll see 30 posts of the same thing i've been reading for well over a year, and it hasn't made me the wiser...

EA and Funcakes, I don't find anything in your replies to me that I disagree with. Everything you said is both self evident and factual. Yet at the same time, it is also self evident that Kosovo's road to independence is not as straight and definitive as was originally proclaimed. Don't get me wrong, I have every reason to believe the endgame will result in some form of independence. Yet I find it still a bit unsettling (and I'm not suggesting you're doing this) that some Albanians still feel the AP is a compromise. Compromising is something one voluntarily gives up and sacrifices for the sake of moving forward and establishing consensus. Right now, the Albanians have nothing to offer and everything to take. The only thing they're giving up are their Serbian passports, and they're giving them up willingly. The minority provisions codified in the AP are universal principles that all states must oblige to, and if Pristina isn't even going to honor those, there's no sense in talking about giving you sovereignty. If you really want to talk about a true compromise, but still achieve independence, give the Serb emclaves de jure autonomy and self government. That would be a major step forward.

Actually there is 50% between 90% autonomy and 100%... it's called 95% and being offered by Serbia.

Serbia keeps coming half way, and then gets asked to go another 50%, but if you do the math, you never get to the end if you keep moving half way.

Maybe by 50% they mean good neighbourly relations between North and South Kosovo. (GASP!!! PARTITION)

The whole world seems to care about the status of KosovO - the problem is the invaders. They invaded land that wasn't theirs in the first place. They continually comment how it was their's back in 900 bc, but quite honestly, what's past is past.

The super powers of the world need to realize that Serbia cannot & will not fold or throw the epitomes towel in the ring for KosovO. This will set an example for the future territories that the albanians wish to take by force.

NO INDEPENDENCE
Kosovo je Srbija!

Mike,
"Some form" of independence doesn't mean full independence. Kosova must be a functioning country and ethnic minorities right fully respected as much as the Albanian ethnic minorities rights Preseva, Bujanovc and Medvegja. That would be an interested point to talk in these "negotiations" rather then talking about the Status of Kosova which for which I have no doubt is going to be full independence.

Peter,
I think you see the Kosova's issue with Serbian glasses. I thought you started understanding the issue but then you are back to square one about a possible "compromise" and what a tragedy would be if Kosova becomes independent from Serbia. Do you know that a modern motorway is being build connecting Pristina to Durres port for two hours? Do you know how important that would be for Kosova? In any case, I am not expecting you to change you mind. If you and people like think that you can persuade more than two million to remain Serbian citizen after all they have been through you must be a genius.

The Ahtisaari proposal contained the measures that UNMIK would have introduced in september 1999 if they had had the neutrality and integrity they claimed to have. They were just minimum measures to give Kosovo's minorities a decent life and for that reason the Kosovo's Serbs have been demanding them from the beginning.

Now Kosovo wants independence to have the guarantee that they won't be suppressed by Serbs anymore. Logical, but Kosovo's Serbs want similar hard guarantees that they won't be supressed by Kosovo's Albanians like in the past 8 years. This is the more urgent as Kosovo is ruled by policians who were involved in the violence and who have grown rich on taking Serb properties.

Until now Kosovo's politicians have consistently refused to give such guarantees. They have only made consessions that will not hinder them too much if they want to cleanse Kosovo of its remaining minorities. It was Ahtisaari's fault to have accepted that.

The problem with "supervised" independence is that NATO the last 8 years has shown to be a rather bad supervisor. I would be prefer to see other guarantees. For example: it should only be possible to change Kosovo's minority laws with consent from Belgrade. And Belgrade should have the right to file complaints about discriminatory laws in Kosovo with the European Court of Law.

FYI :)
"The Basic Treaty (German: Grundlagenvertrag) is the short-hand name for the Treaty concerning the basis of relations between the Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic (German: Vertrag über die Grundlagen der Beziehungen zwischen der Bundesrepublik Deutschland und der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik). West Germany (FRG) and East Germany (GDR) recognized each other as sovereign states for the first time, an abandonment of West Germany's Hallstein Doctrine in favor of Ostpolitik.

After the entry into force of the Four-Power Agreement from 1971, both states began negotiations over a Basic Treaty. Like the Transit Agreement of 1972, the discussions were led by the Under-Secretaries of State Egon Bahr (for the FRG) and Michael Kohl (for the GDR). As part of the Ostpolitik of Federal Chancellor Willy Brandt, the treaty was signed on December 21, 1972 in East Berlin. It was ratified the next year in West Germany, despite opposition from hard-line conservatives. It came into effect in June 1973."

Ron,

It's a bit insulting for you to be telling Albanians as to what is or is not best for them (despite what some paid Serb apologists may say, Kosovars are capable of thinking, especially when it comes in their interests! Yes, in Kosova/o, there are people (human beings) actually living there!). As a Kosovar Albanian, I say full independence, because, unlike you, I've experienced the other end of the bargain and as such, independence is eons better for our well being and existence.

I want to call on you Ron, Albanians, Serbs and Kosova/o Serbs to join me in the struggle of attaining independence for Kosova/o. It's in the best interest for everyone, especially the Serbs!

The albanian posters are missing the point, they must compromise too, did they not read that serbia means business by shutting its borders destroying its economy, what ischinger is saying is that the EU and US will not fund an economic mess and hence you must compromise too. The ahtisari plan is finished, serbia does not agree to it and nor Russia. Start compromising, splitting kosovo up is the only solution.

EA

I understand the issue that Kosovo Albanians cannot live under Serbian rule anymore, I have not changed my mind, I am just saying that Ischinger has a lot of responsibility with regards to this issue and is committed to finding something long term which benefits all.

Your comment shows good intentions, but you probably know as well as I do that Serbia will not be so eager to accept the Ahtisaari Plan and probably will not honor a fruitful coexistence with Kosovo. While unilateral independence will probably happen, no consensus will be found and Kosovo will struggle, but naturally no one can except Kosovo to be controlled by Serbia anymore.

Sale,

Have you just come our from the pub my friend?

"Worse comes to the worst Serbs will have to do whatever they can to keep their country AS WE, (unlike you), HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO!
(Sale, 27. October 2007 23:01) "

Chill out and rest a bit. We can chat tomorrow))

Does B92 continuously edit their articles? I've noticed pictures, and sometimes later in the day when I re-read an article it seems a little different. Has anyone noticed this?

"I would be prefer to see other guarantees. For example: it should only be possible to change Kosovo's minority laws with consent from Belgrade. And Belgrade should have the right to file complaints about discriminatory laws in Kosovo with the European Court of Law."

Again Wim you're missing a point. If anyone has anything to say about those laws it should be the Serbs who actually live in Kosova/o, not some mister big shot guy who sits comfortably in Belgrade. So yes you are right when you talk about guarantees for certain laws and that is how it should be, but certainly not for Belgrade. For example if there is any law being discussed that involves the right of minorities then that law should pass only lets say if 4/5 of the minority legislators agree with it. That is a strong a guarantee. When we talk about no ties with Belgrade whatsoever we mean no ties with them whatsoever. If the Serbs who were born and raised in Kosova/o want stronger laws that guarantee them safety and equality then they should be the ones who have a say in these laws and who have the legal mechanisms of stopping laws that are harmful to their existense. I doubt you'd find any Albanian who would not agree to have the Kosova/o Serb legislators to have legal mechanisms such a veto power over laws that are detrimental to the existence of the Serbs in Kosova/o. This guarantees and stuff like that are our compromise and no it doesn't work that way in other states. We know cause we suffered it ourselves within Serbia.

gjipeja. You say that a good solution is the right one. What exactly would your solution be? You don't give us any.
A lengthy article written by you but doesn't tall us anything. Comparisons of me to anyone else is silly.

Adrian Gashi, You write a VERY lengthy article too. We have your interpretation of all that has been agreed since NATO occupation of Kosovo.
If it is that simple why is it taking this long to make a judgment?
Why did the UN give up on this and handed it over to EU?

Simple answer is that there is no clarity about anything except that Serbia has become a successor to Yugoslavia and therefore is the rightful owner of Kosovo.
K-Albanians can challenge what ever they want but if their claim was legal we wouldn't be still discussing this in 2007.

The UN would've made a decision based on point of law and Serbia wouldn't have anything to present.

The fact that NATO is occupying Kosovo doesn't mean they have any right to govern it forever. This was a temporary measure agreed by the West at the time, or was it a back door way in to take over someone else's land? There was no agreement at the time that Yugoslavia (later succeeded by Serbia) will have to give up part of their country to NATO.

Again, I have to refer to similarities to squatters. You are forced to let someone in on your land and they don't want to leave and want to keep it. NATO have become the squatters.

EA

Ischinger has the responsibility to find a long lasting solution that both sides will accept in order to introduce stability to the region. If Serbia will not accept the Ahtisaari Plan then it has to be scrapped and the discussions must continue. I have said I don't see an agreement coming, but on the other hand think about it:

How can there be stability if no side is willing to compromise and an agreement benefits only the one side? Kosovo offering Serbia a "Pact of Friendship" is not a compromise, I see it as a necessity because Serbia is Kosovo's second biggest trading partner (of course Serbia exports to Kosovo because Kosovo does not have the basic means, while Kosovo imports).

If Kosovo gets independence against Serbia's will, Serbia can easily call on a trade embargo and a big portion of Kosovo's trade will be scrapped. Greece has said they will not recognize Kosovo independence outside of UNSC, and will not have diplomatic ties with them at all, so what does that leave Kosovo with? Montenegro, Macedonia and Albania, the poorest states of Europe together with Moldova (but at least they have normal trade agreements with all their neighbors, which as you should know, is critical for the running of a small scale economy (don't use examples like the USA or something because Kosovo does not have the capacity for such massive-scale trade with Japan, China, USA etc. since it has nothing to offer them).

The miniscule trade it has with Germany and Turkey is not enough to sustain the economy, especially since the trade deficit is somewhere around 90% (ie. Kosovo needs them more than they need Kosovo).

I have already stated that Kosovo will have problems getting into major organizations like the UN, EU or NATO because of the drift in the current members' opinions. I am not saying it's impossible, but it may be the cause of further disagreements and conflict.

I think the US is being very irresponsible by advocating such a drastic decision and I am glad Ischinger is trying for something long term that both sides can at least coexist peacefully with, because the US plan will not solve any problems, maybe short term, but definitely not long term.

Peter,

We have to face the reality. The Serbian leadership hasn't got the guts to tell the truth to its own people that Kosova is lost once and for all. That is Serbia's problem. No one really wants a unilateral declaration of independence but that would be a forced move bear in mind the Russian arrogant stance against the independence of Kosova. For Serbia as you know they are willing to give up even 99 per cent of Sovereignity on Kosova. So far officially they have accepted 95 per cent. I promise you by the 10th of December it will be 99.99 per cent. I know that sounds crazy to think what would mean 0.01 sovereignity left for Serbs. Just for Kosovar Albanians to accept to be Serbian citizens and tell to Serbian people we did a great job..."Kosova is still part of Serbia". On the other side we have "given" Albanians a lot of rights. Actually the truth is that Serbia has lost physically Kosova since 1999. Can you get what is all about?

EA,

You really are the most annoying poster here. You always have to be the first to air your opinion as you like to manipulate and steer the discussion in your direction to suit your argument. You, like your countrymen, are taking too much for granted.

Worse comes to the worst Serbs will have to do whatever they can to keep their country AS WE, (unlike you), HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO!

Ratko,

you've started to think, but got only half way. Let me help:

Serbia has to accept it has had no control over Kosovo for last 8 years, because UN occupation. And UN occupation is there because...?

And unless you admit that Serbs are some kind of puppets (which I for one deny), then the answer does not contain words like "West", "USA" or "NATO".

Dear KS,

Some of our articles indeed change during the day, and we are rather hopeful that our readers do notice this.

The process is known as updating, in other words, we add new information as it comes to us.

Such articles have original timestamp at the top of the page, under the headline, and another in bold, which indicates the time of the last update.

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Regards,

B92

Mike - The Albanians view the AP as a compromise to the highest degree. Telling them that they can't have the Albanian flag as their official flag is a big hit in the gut as it is, never mind all the other concessions! And never mind that this plan is one of the BEST in the world when it comes to minority rights.

Anyone wanting anything other than that is rightfully labeled as GREEDY, and when December 10th comes knocking...that greed will give a reality check to Belgrade and Russia and all of their supporters.

"I would be prefer to see other guarantees. For example: it should only be possible to change Kosovo's minority laws with consent from Belgrade. And Belgrade should have the right to file complaints about discriminatory laws in Kosovo with the European Court of Law."

Again Wim you're missing a point. If anyone has anything to say about those laws it should be the Serbs who actually live in Kosova/o, not some mister big shot guy who sits comfortably in Belgrade. So yes you are right when you talk about guarantees for certain laws and that is how it should be, but certainly not for Belgrade. For example if there is any law being discussed that involves the right of minorities then that law should pass only lets say if 4/5 of the minority legislators agree with it. That is a strong a guarantee. When we talk about no ties with Belgrade whatsoever we mean no ties with them whatsoever. If the Serbs who were born and raised in Kosova/o want stronger laws that guarantee them safety and equality then they should be the ones who have a say in these laws and who have the legal mechanisms of stopping laws that are harmful to their existense. I doubt you'd find any Albanian who would not agree to have the Kosova/o Serb legislators to have legal mechanisms such a veto power over laws that are detrimental to the existence of the Serbs in Kosova/o. This guarantees and stuff like that are our compromise and no it doesn't work that way in other states. We know cause we suffered it ourselves within Serbia.

B92 thank you for replying. I was just curious because sometimes two articles are joined into one, which seems out of no where. It doesn't matter, I just wanted to be sure that it wasn't just me.

Time for Serbia to throw in the towel and wash its hands of Kosova forever. I think rumblings of thunder are being made up north in Novi Sad. Other than the quakes in Sanxhak and Preshevo, Serbia will have its hands full with other groups voting in self declared referendums on independence. Perhaps we can sell the Two Germany compromise between Sanxhak, Preshevo, Vojvodina and Belgrade?

"But why make an exception for Kosovo? Why no independence for Kurdistand and Tibet? "

It took Kosova nearly 90 years to separate from its Serbian-Communist oppressors and 400 since the Turks had it. Bush was at a public gathering honoring the Dalai Lama, a nice public criticism at China's treatment of the Tibetans. And the Tibetans are only asking for autonomy. This is a giant step for the US govt. in recognizing the Dalai Lama in such a public way. Totally opposite of Clinton's absolute silence on the Tibetan issue. Also, in Iraq, the Kurds have their Kurdish canton, with all its wealthy oil trimmings. Another step in recognizing the Kurdish people. So, what you said is actually happening for the Tibetans and Kurds. As for the minorities in X USSR, well, it's Russia's problem to settle, isn't it? If they choose to handle it as they have recently, well, they are the only ones to answer for their crimes. And, military violence on civil actions by minorities will only ensure a future of internal war and instability for the Russians in that kind of scenario. Good luck..I say if the Russians want to equate their problems with the Balkans.

"The laws can't change unless there's permission from Belgrade."

Right, so Mexico also has the right to veto US laws for the hispanic community, as well as Turkey also has the right to veto Cyprus laws...and Spain can veto Congo laws, and Australia can veto Russian laws.

Come on, let's get real in here. We're not playing around with an excel spreadsheet, we're talking about country relations here.

Oh, look at what is being said in this article, the unspoken truth:

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/10/92DE5860-F74F-4E02-8D6F-C4DEB340F234.html

Basically, even if the Security Council doesn't approve something, it still IS LEGAL...and that Russia agrees with the West but doesn't want to say it out loud, so that the Serbs aren't too heartbroken.

A friend that feeds your denial. Hmmm, I don't want a friend like that, do you want a friend like that?

I hope the UNSC lovers aren't too heartbroken by the that fact UNSC isn't needed to make something legal. But I'd rather say it like it is to avoid you guys any future dissappointments.

All the markins are on the wall for anyone that has two eyes. I don't care if is called supervised or controled Independence, as long as Serbia will not have anything to do with Kosova state its OK by me.

Ishinger,
In Albanian we say "Time to put the hand on the wound". Kosovar Albanians have done many compromises by accepting the Ahtisari Plan. We are talking now about the Sovereignity and the independent of Kosova. That is the MAIN ISSUE. Compromises can be achieved only if you respect the other party rather than belittling it. Compromises can be in mutual respect of echnic minorities in two independent countries Kosova and Serbia and their joint future in the EU if Serbia.

K. Albanians would want an agreed and accepted solution more than anyone else. But it is just not possible! We will never compromise on independence from Serbia, and it looks like Serbia won't compomise on wanting to retain Kosovo as part of Serbia.

Ischinger forgets that it is not up to the Kosovan Unity Team to negotiate on independence. They simply do not have the mandate to do that from the population of Kosovo. The moment they were to compomise on independence and accept anything less, they will be overthrown within a day. They only sustainable solution, is the one acceptable to the population of Kosovo, since it is THEM that live there. Anything else is asking for trouble.

So unless Serbia, and others can convice the K.albanian popualtion of Kosovo to change their minds by 10th of December, than the only way forward is independence. So far Serbia is doing a great job! In the end the will of people will prevail.

It simply not true that churches are being destroyed and serb children are escorted by NATO. You beleive what you want but reality on the ground is different. Come and see it for yourself and not to spread propaganda from miles away.

no comment.
my next comment will be:
** I told you so**

the right man at the right place ,this guy,isn't?

I do agree with nick shala,about independence,the legitimity of our team and the consequences to any other compromise.
We are fed up with all these tricks,fed up with these negociations,fed up with serbs pretentions;
Enought is enought!
independence now!

He said it all! For one that understands he is saying "Supervised Indipendence" and get over it.

“American definition of independence was the same as that of Europe’s and did not imply uncontrolled independence, rather a very strict and controlled independence, under EU and NATO supervision”

“understand that a unilateral proclamation of Kosovo independence is not enough.”

“They do not live on an island in the Pacific. What will happen if Kosovo becomes independent one day and Serbia decides to close its borders with Kosovo? That is why an agreement is needed for the development of Kosovo,”

”He added that Serbia, on the other hand, had to accept that it had not had any control over Kosovo for the last eight years”

“The current situation is that Belgrade can no longer realistically expect Kosovo to be under its supervision again,”

To all the Albanian posters here: Is there really a point to us discussing whether Kosova is gonna become independent?
Such discussions have become superfluous. All K-Albanian leaders have already made it clear that they won't accept anything else, e.g Sejdiu, Çeku, Thaçi, Surroi etc; the US has said the same and now even Ischinger confirmed it.
This is a compromise solution as far as we are concerned because it is not full independence but a supervised one.
So what's the point of even discussing such things anymore?. The only things worth discussing now are how independence will be achieved, i.e. unilaterally or not, and what will happen to the North and Presheva.
Let Kate and Princip and Dragan or whoever, discuss the legal niceties of the situation, and resolution 1244 because they are of no interest whatsoever to us at this time.

Mike - The Ahtisaari Plan is an obligation up to the point where it protects minorities...but let's not forget that the Albanians had to accept having different symbols, a different anthem, a different flag that includes symbols from all minorities. Does the EU or US have that? I'm sure if they had a flag like that, there'd be turtles and frogs and eagles and salammanders all over those flags.

And still the Albanian side agreed to it. In addition, they also agreed to not have a union with Albania, which is not an obligation because every country has the right to decide who they wanna unify or merge with.

Yet, the Albanians made all these compromises. Meanwhile, Serbia is still on the Milo-rodeo and doesn't even try to come down and reach the ground.

Dan - What you're saying is 100% independence, but the maps staying the same.

So basically people who don't deserve to be recognized properly? Why? Are they 2nd class world citizens or animals or plants or amoebaes or what?

Compromise between Independence and Autonomy is Supervised Independence don’t you think so. S-Independence is the best option that Serbs will get. Serbian delegation knows this but is trying to get better bargains than offered up to now. Once Serbia signs the SSA agreement than status will be solved.
Do you really think that this Serbian delegation thinks more than Milosevic for K-Serbs. They are the same, if not worst than Milosevic, K-Serbs say.
Peggy, your posting sounds like RTS propaganda

Ratko,

Indeed. Kosovo is becoming a self forphilling provecy.

We intervene, UN troops there, so hey, let's make it independent.
But that was NOT the deal. We all know that.

Let's stop this disaster.
I am doing what I can in Holland.

Albanians, Serbs, join me in stopping Kosovo independende.

This Dutchman is doing his best for all of you.

Especially to all Albanians: please join my strugggle. It is for your best interest too!

"The landlord can always say they want to take back possession of their property and the tenant has to go.
Nobody gave NATO the deed to the land. UN is needed to approve transfer of ownership and that is not going to happen."

This real estate analogy is a little funny. The aforementioned landlord actually doesn't have its own name on the deed, but that of someone else. Yugoslavia's!
If you inherited the deed of a house from your deceased father, you could simply go and get a new copy of the deed under your name as long as there is no contest, in which case a court decides. Now the real test of Serbia's inheritance claim, would be: could Serbia go to the UN and obtain a copy of the Res 1244, having its name and not the name of Yugoslavia on it? Because if it can't, it would be in the same situation as that of an impostor claiming to hold the deed of someone else's house.

The sole reason that Serbia has presented to keep Kosova is what's been repeated here countless times, that piece of paper, "the deed", res 1244, that represents according to many here the intl law. Never mind that Serbia together with Russia have in many other cases ignored, side-stepped or simply and brutally violated the intl law and many other UNSC resolutions. But even under this selective application of the intl law it has serious problems. As a Serb poster before pointed out, Res 1244 itself is inconsistent referring to the Rambouillet "agreement", it has many other holes and presently is outdated as it refers to an entity that doesn't exist, while the claim is being made by an entity that is not even mentioned in the resolution. It doesn't matter if Serbia inherited a UN seat, because since both Serbia and Montenegro got a UN seat, there was no contest, no problem, no issue. Same for the rest of the assets that they split between them. You can claim to inherit anything you want, from the Kilimanjaro to the North Pole if you want, as long there is no contest. And Kosova is within every right to contest such a claim by Serbia, there's nothing illegal about it. We're not talking here simply about a seat, but about the lives of two million people, that clearly, expressivly and without a doubt do not recognize such a claim.

And this brings us to the nature of the international law. It is not like a state law, where you have judges and cops and prisons to enforce the letter of the law. Intl Law represents at best, an agreement, a political and diplomatic agreement among some interested parties at a given time about a given issue. And its formulation is the best reflection of the level of the agreement. Over time, as situations, circumstances and interests change, such an agreement might or might not be possible anymore, rendering a certain law, clause or resolution, outdated, irrelevant, therefore not applicable. In 1999, Res 1244, represented the level of the agreement among the main interested powers, ie NATO powers, US/Europeans and Russia over what to do with Kosova at that specific time. Had they not agreed on anything, Res 1244, would've not even existed at all. However the level of the agreement that could be reached, expressed in 1244, was that Kosova was going to be governed by UNMIK handling local and foreign policy and protected by NATO, with gradually passing of competences to a local government. It was agreed that Yugoslavia (made of Serbia and Montenegro), and NOT just Serbia, would maintain a very formal and symbolic level of sovereignty, and that a status process would be undertaken in the future. The authors could've simply assigned this sovereignty over to Serbia, but they didn't. They could've stated in 1244 that Kosova is a part of Serbia, as the Yugoslav negotiators wanted. But they didn't. Why didn't they? Why is Serbia not mentioned in the Res 1244, not even one single time, even though Serbia existed at the time as the Federation's Republic that claimed to have Kosova as part of its own Republic. Because Serbia lost that argument and it was agreed that Kosova wasn't going to be a part of Serbia, but at best only Yugoslavia could claim a symbolic sovereignty over Kosova. That clearly expressed the level of the agreement, a middle-of-the-road meeting of the various viewpoints where some thought that in the future, Kosova could be an equal Republic of the Federation together with Serbia and Montenegro, or it could be independent. However this was defered until a later time, clearly expressed in the resolution. Now you can't come back 8 years later, put an orange in front of my eyes and pretend it to be a tangerine. Because it is not. The sovereignty was assigned to Yugoslavia, not Serbia, a very crucial point. And with a very specific reason why it was not assigned to Serbia.

Now 8 years later, that agreement, 1244, together with the circumstances and the situations has changed. Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore. Different parties view the future of Kosova differently. The intl community is in the process of finding a new agreement, and a universally accepted UN envoy made the recomendation of the independent Kosova. Please tell me what is illegal about it? If a new agreement will be found among all the parties, a new Resolution will enshrine this agreement, and if not, there's nothing that prevents or forces independent states to recognize Kosova as independent or withhold such recognition. No intl law or resolution and such, that prevents individual states from recognizing other states. In fact this very recognition would indicate the lack of the agreement and render the previous 1999 agreement, Res 1244, obsolete and ineffective.

It seems that many Serbs here have taken the actions of the IC the wrong way. It is not as they think that the US or the European powers are begging Serbia to "sign off the deed" because they have no other way, and Serbia can simply ignore it. The much maligned Ahtisaari, Ischinger and the rest of the western diplomats have in fact been doing Serbia a favor, by allowing it to have a say, to express its interests and to find a modus vivendi in the new situation, and to make the separation of Kosova and Serbia such that it will provide for peace and stability in the region, so that in the future normal relations betw them could also be possible. It's the responsible, sensible and positive thing to do. They have been patient and swallowed their pride to start the negotiations over and over and over again. When you sober up, you'll see that they are not Albanians, nor do they work simply for Albanians' interests, rather for the interests of peace and progress in the region, and to pull the region out of poverty, instability and into the mainstream Europe. Russia on the other hand has other interests. It suits her just fine to have the region in chaos and insecurity, to leave the Kosovars in poverty, unemployment and hunger, to have a frozen conflict, possibly to dupplicate a Palestinian conflict. But I would like to ask the Serbs who truly love their people: Would you rather want your country to resemble Israel or the Czech Republic?

Serbia has gone as far as it can on the compromised solution.
The next step would be to agree to independence.
How can this possibly be called a compromise? It is just another forced independence wrapped up in a different wrapper.

Looks like it has gone back to square one.
Supervised independence for Kosovo. This is going right back to the beginning.

They can call it whatever they want but independence is what they are pushing.

So NATO has controlled Kosovo for 8 year. What have they accomplished in that time? Nothing. Refugees have not been able to return and the churches are still being destroyed. Serbian children are needing NATO escort to schools. Just because NATO has been calling the shots for a few years doesn't mean they own the land.
The landlord can always say they want to take back possession of their property and the tenant has to go.

Nobody gave NATO the deed to the land. UN is needed to approve transfer of ownership and that is not going to happen.
Let's get ready for another year of talks.

One thing I've understood from all this Troika thing is that they can't do anything about this mess...so they just try to save-face every time, with lame plans like the 14 points, and also with dreamy statements that somehow compromise will be reached, even though it's been almost 3 months that the negotiations have started, and they're on their final month still at ground zero.

I hope the taxpayers that funded this Troika sham are fuming right now, because this lying trio is making alot of money by talking smack and getting nothing done!

What 50% are you talking about?? There is no 50% between autonomy and independence! Is there some new concept out there that we don't know about?

The comprimise IS the Ahtisaari plan, and the Troika better realise that before their mandate expires on December 10th.

The Troika seems to be in a bigger denial than Belgrade.

Mike,

Ahtisari spend a lot of time with both the Kosova's and Serbia's delegations to reach of compromise. If you read what the Serbs were "offering" originally in these negotiatuions compare to the negotiations now you will be laughing now to see the Serbs "change of hearts" and what they are willing to "offer".

Mike, the fact and the reality is that the Serbian government has nothing to offer. Why you might ask. Because Serbia lost physically Kosova since 1999 and I am sure that you know how that happened. We are in a situation now that we have NATO forces on the ground and Serbia as a sovereign country forced for whatever reason banned to exercise its "sovereignity". I hope you agree on that. Taking into account all considerations mainly political and historical, demographical, geographical I found it UNREALISTIC to ask the Kosovar Albanians to be Serbian citizens. The realistic way forward is two independent states and exact respect rights for the Serb minority in Kosova and the Albanians living in Presevo, Bujanovc, and Medvegja. If there is real good will and realistic approach by the Serbian government it would be a success. No war and living in peace. All the desplaced people can return home safely and the politician to work together for building bridges between the two independent states.

To Ron

We dont need your help ron. This is not Srebrenica! Go help those folks, not us! You dutch proved in the past how you "help" people...just stay out of this! Let Albanians and Serb solve thir own problems!

hey dutchman , do I need to refresh your memory,no offense but (SREBRENICA) was heleped by dutch soldires... do you know where the civialans are now?? thanks for trying to help us albanians but we prefer to stick with the Americans.

Does B92 continuously edit their articles? I've noticed pictures, and sometimes later in the day when I re-read an article it seems a little different. Has anyone noticed this?

Ron,

It's a bit insulting for you to be telling Albanians as to what is or is not best for them (despite what some paid Serb apologists may say, Kosovars are capable of thinking, especially when it comes in their interests! Yes, in Kosova/o, there are people (human beings) actually living there!). As a Kosovar Albanian, I say full independence, because, unlike you, I've experienced the other end of the bargain and as such, independence is eons better for our well being and existence.

I want to call on you Ron, Albanians, Serbs and Kosova/o Serbs to join me in the struggle of attaining independence for Kosova/o. It's in the best interest for everyone, especially the Serbs!

The Ahtisaari proposal contained the measures that UNMIK would have introduced in september 1999 if they had had the neutrality and integrity they claimed to have. They were just minimum measures to give Kosovo's minorities a decent life and for that reason the Kosovo's Serbs have been demanding them from the beginning.

Now Kosovo wants independence to have the guarantee that they won't be suppressed by Serbs anymore. Logical, but Kosovo's Serbs want similar hard guarantees that they won't be supressed by Kosovo's Albanians like in the past 8 years. This is the more urgent as Kosovo is ruled by policians who were involved in the violence and who have grown rich on taking Serb properties.

Until now Kosovo's politicians have consistently refused to give such guarantees. They have only made consessions that will not hinder them too much if they want to cleanse Kosovo of its remaining minorities. It was Ahtisaari's fault to have accepted that.

The problem with "supervised" independence is that NATO the last 8 years has shown to be a rather bad supervisor. I would be prefer to see other guarantees. For example: it should only be possible to change Kosovo's minority laws with consent from Belgrade. And Belgrade should have the right to file complaints about discriminatory laws in Kosovo with the European Court of Law.

"I would be prefer to see other guarantees. For example: it should only be possible to change Kosovo's minority laws with consent from Belgrade. And Belgrade should have the right to file complaints about discriminatory laws in Kosovo with the European Court of Law."

Again Wim you're missing a point. If anyone has anything to say about those laws it should be the Serbs who actually live in Kosova/o, not some mister big shot guy who sits comfortably in Belgrade. So yes you are right when you talk about guarantees for certain laws and that is how it should be, but certainly not for Belgrade. For example if there is any law being discussed that involves the right of minorities then that law should pass only lets say if 4/5 of the minority legislators agree with it. That is a strong a guarantee. When we talk about no ties with Belgrade whatsoever we mean no ties with them whatsoever. If the Serbs who were born and raised in Kosova/o want stronger laws that guarantee them safety and equality then they should be the ones who have a say in these laws and who have the legal mechanisms of stopping laws that are harmful to their existense. I doubt you'd find any Albanian who would not agree to have the Kosova/o Serb legislators to have legal mechanisms such a veto power over laws that are detrimental to the existence of the Serbs in Kosova/o. This guarantees and stuff like that are our compromise and no it doesn't work that way in other states. We know cause we suffered it ourselves within Serbia.

EA, the Ahtisaari Plan is not a "compromise", it's an "obligation". Most civilized societies would view this as your cover charge just to get into the negotiation room. If anything, a resulting compromise will be "minimal independence" with Serb enclaves all but separated from Pristina, and the EU with heavy administrative executive rights over the whole province for the foreseeable future.

SUPERVISED AUTONOMY sounds like the best compromise solution. It will keep the Serbs quiet while allowing the Albanians virtual independence to govern themselves, all under the watchful supervising eyes of the EU & NATO.

"He added that Serbia, on the other hand, had to accept that it had not had any control over Kosovo for the last eight years. "

Ya that's because you have been occupying the Serbian province for 8 years now.

FYI :)
"The Basic Treaty (German: Grundlagenvertrag) is the short-hand name for the Treaty concerning the basis of relations between the Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic (German: Vertrag über die Grundlagen der Beziehungen zwischen der Bundesrepublik Deutschland und der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik). West Germany (FRG) and East Germany (GDR) recognized each other as sovereign states for the first time, an abandonment of West Germany's Hallstein Doctrine in favor of Ostpolitik.

After the entry into force of the Four-Power Agreement from 1971, both states began negotiations over a Basic Treaty. Like the Transit Agreement of 1972, the discussions were led by the Under-Secretaries of State Egon Bahr (for the FRG) and Michael Kohl (for the GDR). As part of the Ostpolitik of Federal Chancellor Willy Brandt, the treaty was signed on December 21, 1972 in East Berlin. It was ratified the next year in West Germany, despite opposition from hard-line conservatives. It came into effect in June 1973."

Reading all the comments, is interesting to see how the negotiation process in those high level meetings in Vienna or New York or wherever, do not change so much from this modest forum where ideas and cogitation are shared. In a invented scenario "EA" is playing "Sejdiu" and "peggy" as Tadic. Everything is so polarized. + Vs -, independence Vs Autonomy, Serbs Vs. Albanians. However this affiliation with the respective sides involved in this mash up has logic and is not a surprise. The surprise is what we are looking for. Everyone who feel serb won;t allow the division of kosovo because will betray some crucial natinalistic principles. the same for albanains... no one is able to resign from the strict definition INDEPENDECE because will be a traitor. All this,is causing an open attack to the logic and realistic possibilities for genuine compromise. It opens the door for unilateral actions that will keep the conflict always tense and the region a boiling dish.
Everyone is tired, and this affects negatively the so called "negotiation" which in my opinion is just a hypocrite acting.... Everyone is sick about all this wasted energy of albanians, serbs, EU community ... a little bit less is US and Russia. However let me say that although the International Community is striving in the vain for a possible solution... the game will be only between us... serbs and albanians. We can not avoid each other however the solution can be. We are next door old neighbors that have always been looking to make difficult the life of each other...seems that it won;t change. Nevertheless a good solution is not the one that is "right". A good solution is a durable one which can secure the basis of stability in this region screwed up by wars and hate... The keyword for acceptable solution is Tolerance... It can startf from everyone...

Ratko,

you've started to think, but got only half way. Let me help:

Serbia has to accept it has had no control over Kosovo for last 8 years, because UN occupation. And UN occupation is there because...?

And unless you admit that Serbs are some kind of puppets (which I for one deny), then the answer does not contain words like "West", "USA" or "NATO".

Mike,
"Some form" of independence doesn't mean full independence. Kosova must be a functioning country and ethnic minorities right fully respected as much as the Albanian ethnic minorities rights Preseva, Bujanovc and Medvegja. That would be an interested point to talk in these "negotiations" rather then talking about the Status of Kosova which for which I have no doubt is going to be full independence.

Peter,
I think you see the Kosova's issue with Serbian glasses. I thought you started understanding the issue but then you are back to square one about a possible "compromise" and what a tragedy would be if Kosova becomes independent from Serbia. Do you know that a modern motorway is being build connecting Pristina to Durres port for two hours? Do you know how important that would be for Kosova? In any case, I am not expecting you to change you mind. If you and people like think that you can persuade more than two million to remain Serbian citizen after all they have been through you must be a genius.

Look people:
The headline reads "Troika considers introducing new text"..

Why is everybody reading into it so deeply? After eight years of boondoggle, you're still at the same spot!!
How hard is it to stick to the topic?
Everybody's posts (although i can't understand what planet some of the Albanian posters come from), seem to run around in circles, and deviate from the main article..

I'll see 30 posts of the same thing i've been reading for well over a year, and it hasn't made me the wiser...

"All the markins are on the wall for anyone that has two eyes. I don't care if is called supervised or controled Independence, as long as Serbia will not have anything to do with Kosova state its OK by me.
(ahmet isufi, 26. October 2007 14:18) "

You don't need those 2 eyes to see that what you predict can only apply south of the Ibar.

Dear KS,

Some of our articles indeed change during the day, and we are rather hopeful that our readers do notice this.

The process is known as updating, in other words, we add new information as it comes to us.

Such articles have original timestamp at the top of the page, under the headline, and another in bold, which indicates the time of the last update.

This is also a useful indicator that you may find new information in articles which you may have already read.

Our proofreader may also make corrections which do not pertain to content and which are not marked as updates.

Regards,

B92

EA and Funcakes, I don't find anything in your replies to me that I disagree with. Everything you said is both self evident and factual. Yet at the same time, it is also self evident that Kosovo's road to independence is not as straight and definitive as was originally proclaimed. Don't get me wrong, I have every reason to believe the endgame will result in some form of independence. Yet I find it still a bit unsettling (and I'm not suggesting you're doing this) that some Albanians still feel the AP is a compromise. Compromising is something one voluntarily gives up and sacrifices for the sake of moving forward and establishing consensus. Right now, the Albanians have nothing to offer and everything to take. The only thing they're giving up are their Serbian passports, and they're giving them up willingly. The minority provisions codified in the AP are universal principles that all states must oblige to, and if Pristina isn't even going to honor those, there's no sense in talking about giving you sovereignty. If you really want to talk about a true compromise, but still achieve independence, give the Serb emclaves de jure autonomy and self government. That would be a major step forward.

Actually there is 50% between 90% autonomy and 100%... it's called 95% and being offered by Serbia.

Serbia keeps coming half way, and then gets asked to go another 50%, but if you do the math, you never get to the end if you keep moving half way.

Maybe by 50% they mean good neighbourly relations between North and South Kosovo. (GASP!!! PARTITION)

The albanian posters are missing the point, they must compromise too, did they not read that serbia means business by shutting its borders destroying its economy, what ischinger is saying is that the EU and US will not fund an economic mess and hence you must compromise too. The ahtisari plan is finished, serbia does not agree to it and nor Russia. Start compromising, splitting kosovo up is the only solution.

Ischinger should know that there is a international supervision needed, and Belgrade doesn´t intend to have any supervision, since it is offering broad autonomy.

it is like speaking to deaf ears... but, that won´t change the facts.

there is no independence, and Ischinger knows it. the Albanians will know it too, if not today, certainly in the future.

"t simply not true that churches are being destroyed and serb children are escorted by NATO. You beleive what you want but reality on the ground is different. Come and see it for yourself and not to spread propaganda from miles away.
(ahmet isufi, 26. October 2007 15:05)"

Ahmed, you seem to be the only one who is denying the truth here.

you shoul REALLY feel ashamed. all serbian and international sources are showing only videos of mechanical dummies being transported in armored vehicles to school or to the churches?

you seem to deny what nobody else today even tries to deny.

Jetoni,

But why make an exception for Kosovo? Why no independence for Kurdistand and Tibet?

Please follow the path of international law!

Mike - The Albanians view the AP as a compromise to the highest degree. Telling them that they can't have the Albanian flag as their official flag is a big hit in the gut as it is, never mind all the other concessions! And never mind that this plan is one of the BEST in the world when it comes to minority rights.

Anyone wanting anything other than that is rightfully labeled as GREEDY, and when December 10th comes knocking...that greed will give a reality check to Belgrade and Russia and all of their supporters.

gjipeja. You say that a good solution is the right one. What exactly would your solution be? You don't give us any.
A lengthy article written by you but doesn't tall us anything. Comparisons of me to anyone else is silly.

Adrian Gashi, You write a VERY lengthy article too. We have your interpretation of all that has been agreed since NATO occupation of Kosovo.
If it is that simple why is it taking this long to make a judgment?
Why did the UN give up on this and handed it over to EU?

Simple answer is that there is no clarity about anything except that Serbia has become a successor to Yugoslavia and therefore is the rightful owner of Kosovo.
K-Albanians can challenge what ever they want but if their claim was legal we wouldn't be still discussing this in 2007.

The UN would've made a decision based on point of law and Serbia wouldn't have anything to present.

The fact that NATO is occupying Kosovo doesn't mean they have any right to govern it forever. This was a temporary measure agreed by the West at the time, or was it a back door way in to take over someone else's land? There was no agreement at the time that Yugoslavia (later succeeded by Serbia) will have to give up part of their country to NATO.

Again, I have to refer to similarities to squatters. You are forced to let someone in on your land and they don't want to leave and want to keep it. NATO have become the squatters.

The whole world seems to care about the status of KosovO - the problem is the invaders. They invaded land that wasn't theirs in the first place. They continually comment how it was their's back in 900 bc, but quite honestly, what's past is past.

The super powers of the world need to realize that Serbia cannot & will not fold or throw the epitomes towel in the ring for KosovO. This will set an example for the future territories that the albanians wish to take by force.

NO INDEPENDENCE
Kosovo je Srbija!

"I would be prefer to see other guarantees. For example: it should only be possible to change Kosovo's minority laws with consent from Belgrade. And Belgrade should have the right to file complaints about discriminatory laws in Kosovo with the European Court of Law."

Again Wim you're missing a point. If anyone has anything to say about those laws it should be the Serbs who actually live in Kosova/o, not some mister big shot guy who sits comfortably in Belgrade. So yes you are right when you talk about guarantees for certain laws and that is how it should be, but certainly not for Belgrade. For example if there is any law being discussed that involves the right of minorities then that law should pass only lets say if 4/5 of the minority legislators agree with it. That is a strong a guarantee. When we talk about no ties with Belgrade whatsoever we mean no ties with them whatsoever. If the Serbs who were born and raised in Kosova/o want stronger laws that guarantee them safety and equality then they should be the ones who have a say in these laws and who have the legal mechanisms of stopping laws that are harmful to their existense. I doubt you'd find any Albanian who would not agree to have the Kosova/o Serb legislators to have legal mechanisms such a veto power over laws that are detrimental to the existence of the Serbs in Kosova/o. This guarantees and stuff like that are our compromise and no it doesn't work that way in other states. We know cause we suffered it ourselves within Serbia.

B92 thank you for replying. I was just curious because sometimes two articles are joined into one, which seems out of no where. It doesn't matter, I just wanted to be sure that it wasn't just me.

Time for Serbia to throw in the towel and wash its hands of Kosova forever. I think rumblings of thunder are being made up north in Novi Sad. Other than the quakes in Sanxhak and Preshevo, Serbia will have its hands full with other groups voting in self declared referendums on independence. Perhaps we can sell the Two Germany compromise between Sanxhak, Preshevo, Vojvodina and Belgrade?

"But why make an exception for Kosovo? Why no independence for Kurdistand and Tibet? "

It took Kosova nearly 90 years to separate from its Serbian-Communist oppressors and 400 since the Turks had it. Bush was at a public gathering honoring the Dalai Lama, a nice public criticism at China's treatment of the Tibetans. And the Tibetans are only asking for autonomy. This is a giant step for the US govt. in recognizing the Dalai Lama in such a public way. Totally opposite of Clinton's absolute silence on the Tibetan issue. Also, in Iraq, the Kurds have their Kurdish canton, with all its wealthy oil trimmings. Another step in recognizing the Kurdish people. So, what you said is actually happening for the Tibetans and Kurds. As for the minorities in X USSR, well, it's Russia's problem to settle, isn't it? If they choose to handle it as they have recently, well, they are the only ones to answer for their crimes. And, military violence on civil actions by minorities will only ensure a future of internal war and instability for the Russians in that kind of scenario. Good luck..I say if the Russians want to equate their problems with the Balkans.

"The laws can't change unless there's permission from Belgrade."

Right, so Mexico also has the right to veto US laws for the hispanic community, as well as Turkey also has the right to veto Cyprus laws...and Spain can veto Congo laws, and Australia can veto Russian laws.

Come on, let's get real in here. We're not playing around with an excel spreadsheet, we're talking about country relations here.

EA

Ischinger has the responsibility to find a long lasting solution that both sides will accept in order to introduce stability to the region. If Serbia will not accept the Ahtisaari Plan then it has to be scrapped and the discussions must continue. I have said I don't see an agreement coming, but on the other hand think about it:

How can there be stability if no side is willing to compromise and an agreement benefits only the one side? Kosovo offering Serbia a "Pact of Friendship" is not a compromise, I see it as a necessity because Serbia is Kosovo's second biggest trading partner (of course Serbia exports to Kosovo because Kosovo does not have the basic means, while Kosovo imports).

If Kosovo gets independence against Serbia's will, Serbia can easily call on a trade embargo and a big portion of Kosovo's trade will be scrapped. Greece has said they will not recognize Kosovo independence outside of UNSC, and will not have diplomatic ties with them at all, so what does that leave Kosovo with? Montenegro, Macedonia and Albania, the poorest states of Europe together with Moldova (but at least they have normal trade agreements with all their neighbors, which as you should know, is critical for the running of a small scale economy (don't use examples like the USA or something because Kosovo does not have the capacity for such massive-scale trade with Japan, China, USA etc. since it has nothing to offer them).

The miniscule trade it has with Germany and Turkey is not enough to sustain the economy, especially since the trade deficit is somewhere around 90% (ie. Kosovo needs them more than they need Kosovo).

I have already stated that Kosovo will have problems getting into major organizations like the UN, EU or NATO because of the drift in the current members' opinions. I am not saying it's impossible, but it may be the cause of further disagreements and conflict.

I think the US is being very irresponsible by advocating such a drastic decision and I am glad Ischinger is trying for something long term that both sides can at least coexist peacefully with, because the US plan will not solve any problems, maybe short term, but definitely not long term.

EA

I understand the issue that Kosovo Albanians cannot live under Serbian rule anymore, I have not changed my mind, I am just saying that Ischinger has a lot of responsibility with regards to this issue and is committed to finding something long term which benefits all.

Your comment shows good intentions, but you probably know as well as I do that Serbia will not be so eager to accept the Ahtisaari Plan and probably will not honor a fruitful coexistence with Kosovo. While unilateral independence will probably happen, no consensus will be found and Kosovo will struggle, but naturally no one can except Kosovo to be controlled by Serbia anymore.

Oh, look at what is being said in this article, the unspoken truth:

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/10/92DE5860-F74F-4E02-8D6F-C4DEB340F234.html

Basically, even if the Security Council doesn't approve something, it still IS LEGAL...and that Russia agrees with the West but doesn't want to say it out loud, so that the Serbs aren't too heartbroken.

A friend that feeds your denial. Hmmm, I don't want a friend like that, do you want a friend like that?

I hope the UNSC lovers aren't too heartbroken by the that fact UNSC isn't needed to make something legal. But I'd rather say it like it is to avoid you guys any future dissappointments.

Peter,

We have to face the reality. The Serbian leadership hasn't got the guts to tell the truth to its own people that Kosova is lost once and for all. That is Serbia's problem. No one really wants a unilateral declaration of independence but that would be a forced move bear in mind the Russian arrogant stance against the independence of Kosova. For Serbia as you know they are willing to give up even 99 per cent of Sovereignity on Kosova. So far officially they have accepted 95 per cent. I promise you by the 10th of December it will be 99.99 per cent. I know that sounds crazy to think what would mean 0.01 sovereignity left for Serbs. Just for Kosovar Albanians to accept to be Serbian citizens and tell to Serbian people we did a great job..."Kosova is still part of Serbia". On the other side we have "given" Albanians a lot of rights. Actually the truth is that Serbia has lost physically Kosova since 1999. Can you get what is all about?

EA,

You really are the most annoying poster here. You always have to be the first to air your opinion as you like to manipulate and steer the discussion in your direction to suit your argument. You, like your countrymen, are taking too much for granted.

Worse comes to the worst Serbs will have to do whatever they can to keep their country AS WE, (unlike you), HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO!

Sale,

Have you just come our from the pub my friend?

"Worse comes to the worst Serbs will have to do whatever they can to keep their country AS WE, (unlike you), HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO!
(Sale, 27. October 2007 23:01) "

Chill out and rest a bit. We can chat tomorrow))