" Sejdiu blamed Serbia for the tension, saying that the Belgrade team had provoked verbal conflicts between the two delegations at the Vienna meeting by presenting a stance that Kosovo was a Serbian province whose rights depended on the will of Belgrade"
I fail to see how stating this fact is provoking anyone. And Carl is absolutly right, Kosovo was never an state within Yugoslavia. It had more self rule almost like a state, but it never was a state, always a province within Serbia. It still is an legal part of Serbia.
Had it been an state like Bosnia or Croatia, there wouldn't be any talks at all and Kosovo would have been an independend state the minute Milosovic withdrew from Kosovo.
However does a constant repeat of saying, Kosovo is a Serbian province anyone any good. I don't think so a solution has to be found. I am not in favour of independence, while the Albanians don't see it that way I still think a full autonomy for the province is the best. With full self control, control over its border. And with an international agreement there is no need to be afraid that Belgrade will ever take the status away.
There are still more solutions, even and Independent Kosovo once it is in the E.U. with open borders with Serbia and free movenment of people and goods and protection of the Serbs and cultural heritage would be a good solution.
(Sending this again since it wasn't posted when I sent it last night)
EA,
“You are confusing many things here. You say that "Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia." Who told you that?”
Who told me that? Well, I should say it is common knowledge, but maybe you are right, I am not informed on the stance on the Kosovo issue of every single country on the planet. There may be countries in the world that considers Kosovo an independent country and not a part of Serbia. Please enlighten me, tell me which these are.
Meanwhile, let me give you a couple of examples of countries that do recognise Kosovo as a part of Serbia:
- The United States of America
“While legally still part of Serbia, Kosovo remains an international protectorate of the United Nations as outlined in UN Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1244, which was passed June 10, 1999.”
(from the U.S Department of State official website: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5388.htm)
- The United Kingdom
"Kosovo is a province of the Republic of Serbia but has been under interim UN administration since 1999"
(from the UK Government official website: http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029394365&a=KCountryProfile&aid=1159192560811)
The Serbs have no right to stop Kosovo becoming independent when the Albanians form a majority in the region. The Bosnians don't have the right to stop the Serbs connecting Rep. Srpska to Serbia nor do the Bosnians have the right in interferring in Hercegovina becoming a part of Croatia where it should be.
Kate you should know that this is a forum that supposed to be a constructive one, where everyone has an opportunity to express its own views in the matter, and not a militant one in nature.
Kate you say: This is exactly the sort of agressive emotive approach used against other posters not in favour of independence. You can't shut everyone up with the same words over and over.
If you can analyze it, you can see you are misleading the posters here. I don’t understand where do you see aggressive behavior by the Albanians in this forum? They are not threatening nor insulting anyone which is not the case with Serb posters, who use provocative vocabulary, by calling them terrorists, Serbian Albanians, rapists, drug dealers, Islamic fundamentalists, corroborating with Bin Laden and so on.
In contrary the Albanian posters are behaving themselves in a very civilized manner, thanking b-92 for their impartiality and the chance to voice their opinion.
Not falling a pray to your provocations, that is a class, and I am really proud of them
Kate you say: People, especially Europeans, have the right to disagree with you.
(kate, 24. October 2007 22:10)
You have the right to disagree with us. Do not talk for other Europeans, you not all the Europeans. And we have the right to disagree with you when our freedom is in question.
Just by you calling the Albanians aggressive posters, says enough about you.
I don’t understand where do you see the aggressiveness you talking about?
And that's right no one can stop us from wanting freedom not you not anyone, and if you qualify that as aggressiveness so be it.
Peace and prosperity for all mankind!
Peter, again...Kosovo does not constitute a precedent because of the planned genocide, as well as the bombings which lead to Serbia withdrawing.
All those other regions have had conflicts and fights, but none of them were faced with an evil Milosevic masterplan that would just expell people just for being a certain ethnicity, on a massive scale, that brought the issue in an international scale.
We didn't even know about regions like South Ossetia and Abkhazia and what not until yesterday, while Kosovo is a very famous screenplay.
The only possible scenario is a declaration of independence. Whoever wants to recognize, will do so...
Carl said:"Has it not occurred to you that if you were right there would be no dispute, no negotiations, and no Ahtisaari plan? Kosovo would probably have become an independent country the minute Yugoslavia ceased to exist, if not earlier. "
Then Carl, by the same token Kosova/o is not Serbian. If you were right there would be no dispute, no negotiations, and no Ahtisaari plan? Kosova/o would probably have never been an international issue, it would never exist. So the fact as it stands now is that Kosova/o is neither Serbian nor independent. Those are the facts on the ground and that is why there are negotiations. OThe two solutions for it are to either be Serbian or Independent. I fail to see where the compromise is, unless you call compromise forcing once side to agree, which is what going to happen even though it will take time. 50 years from now Serbia will open its new embassy in Prishtina. Until then we will have a Kosova/o recognized by the most powerful nations as independent, but Serbia will be in denial. They will protest, they will walk out of many meetings, they will threaten, they will station their troops around the border,however 50 years from now they will realize they will never ever have sovereignty over Kosova/o again if they want to avoid another NATO bombing.
If Pristina refuses to discuss autonomy which is one of the options on the table then why bother turning up for any negotiations at all.
They have made their position perfectly clear. Nothing less than independence will do. So until they get their wish they should just stay away from any more meetings and let the people who do turn up to those meeting make a decision.
Obviously Pristina has nothing more to contribute to the negotiations so why bother with them?
Do they think that but just turning up they will be seen as compromising?
“You are confusing many things here. You say that "Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia." Who told you that?”
Who told me that? Well, I should say it is common knowledge, but maybe you are right, I am not informed on the stance on the Kosovo issue of every single country on the planet. There may be countries in the world that considers Kosovo an independent country and not a part of Serbia. Please enlighten me, tell me which these are.
Meanwhile, let me give you a couple of examples of countries that do recognise Kosovo as a part of Serbia:
- The United States of America:
“While legally still part of Serbia, Kosovo remains an international protectorate of the United Nations as outlined in UN Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1244, which was passed June 10, 1999.”
(from the U.S Department of State official website: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5388.htm)
- The United Kingdom:
"Kosovo is a province of the Republic of Serbia but has been under interim UN administration since 1999"
(from the UK Government official website: http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029394365&a=KCountryProfile&aid=1159192560811)
Kate,
UN Res. 1244
I have said to you few times that Yugoslavia doesn't exist any more. According the the Yugoslavia Constitution Kosova has all the prerogatives of a republic including the Presidency, right of veto etc etc. These are FACTS and we are talking about a constitution many year back of 1976 (you can check the dates. Can you immagine Kosova being within Serbia with the same rights it had under Yugoslavian Constitution? I will try to put it politely to you that would be stupid thing to think. One more thing your refer to the Resolution 1244 as being a verse from the BIBLE that can not be change. You know that this resolution needs to be altered to match to the reality in Kosova. The trouble is the Russia is taking a fanatic slavic view on the matter and ready to veto any solution. They have made it clear that they are against the independence of Kosova. We understand that. USA and Europe understands that but believe me they will not allow Russia to take hostage the whole process of Kosova's issue. Russia hasn't done any investment politically and economically in Kosova. This is an EU and USA issue which are the bigest investors in stabilizing Kosova. These are real FACTS Kate.
"You say that "Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia." Who told you that? From your comments doesn't look that you have a great knowledge about the issue... Read and serch a bit more my friend before coming here and show us your "impartiality"."
All Carl said was that Kosovo is a recognised province in Serbia. What do you think it is? Already independent?
You can attempt to take the high moral ground all these years after matters were settled with UN Res. 1244, but it doesn't wash. Facts are facts, and please find me one official document which identifies Kosovo as an independent nation. There are none!
This is exactly the sort of agressive emotive approach used against other posters not in favour of independence. You can't shut everyone up with the same words over and over.
People, especially Europeans, have the right to disagree with you.
You are confusing many things here. You say that "Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia." Who told you that? From your comments doesn't look that you have a great knowledge about the issue. Many people didn't know where Kosova was, maybe many American don't know where Serbia is or Albania. Can you tell me why Kosova why and when Kosova bacame so "famous" in the world? Let me help you to start with because of the echnic cleansing orchastrated by the Serbian State of Slobodan Milosevic and in 1999 Serbia was forced out of Kosova by NATO. Read and serch a bit more my friend before coming here and show us your "impartiality".
What you say teni is precisely the reason why I still wish for an agreement in the back of my mind. There will always be a group of dissatisfied people. The Serbs in Kosovo would be a constant source of trouble, then if it is partioned, Albanians in Northern Kosovo would be a constant source of trouble (probably uniting with the Presevo Valley Albanians) and it would just never end.
Partition along ethnic lines is a dangerous thing in a situation like this, and I see no real hope for a mutual agreement, which is why I am extremely critical of the USA and Russia for their pig-headed stubbornness. It is helping no one and will only cause problems. I pray that until 10-12-2007, Serbs and Albanians agree on something, but sadly, I doubt this will happen.
Funcakes
Funcakes, to the greatest degree, the potential Serbia/Kosovo divorce is based on ethnic lines. The exact same thing is happening in Georgia, with the separatist movements of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the Caucasus region has been the scene of equal bloodshed and ethnic hatred (more in fact, in terms of numbers of people killed and displaced)
The reasoning behind NATO sending armies in to stop genocide is for the most part, correct, but tell me, you think NATO would send in troops to assist the Georgians when Russian armies and advisors strongly back the separatist movements of South Ossetia and Abkhazia? No, they wouldn't same as how Russia did not assist Serbia against NATO. Georgia (and even Russia's own Chechnya) is within Russia's "sphere of influence" which NATO would not dare to interfere with, same as how Russia will not interfere on a military level in Kosovo, which is more in NATO's "sphere of influence". The conflict would be far too great.
My point being: splitting sovereign states in terms of ethnic groups is not unique anywhere, and if Kosovo gets independence, why shouldn't South Ossetia and Abkhazia?
Russia has threatened to recognize their unilateral independence and will probably do so, because it is in their sphere of influence, same as how the US will recognize Kosovo, because it is in NATO's sphere of influence.
It is an identical situation: groups of people are pawns in Russia and the US's silly, chauvinistic games.
indeed there won't be second Albania on Serbian soil, just Serbian soil will be a little smaller after Kosovo gets (or takes) what it already almost has.
And for that you can thank your blundering politicians, and no one else.
First, for the record, I don’t take sides in this “independence or not” conflict. I do however find it important that a lasting, peaceful solution is found.
This argument (”Kosovo is not a part of Serbia, it was a part of Yugoslavia, which no longer exists”) keeps coming up now and then.
Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia. Many strongly think that Serbia should let go of it, but to my knowledge, not one country (not even the US) goes saying “Serbia got it all wrong. Kosovo is not a part of Serbia, so let’s educate the Serbs on this misunderstanding, redraw the map, and be done with it”.
Has it not occurred to you that if you were right there would be no dispute, no negotiations, and no Ahtisaari plan? Kosovo would probably have become an independent country the minute Yugoslavia ceased to exist, if not earlier.
I understand that it is very convenient for you to discard Serbia’s claim on Kosovo as an illegitimate one, but it won’t help you efforts, because it’s a misconception.
I agree totally with Prishtina Team,they shouldn't discuss something they had already and has been taken away!!!
This is a FACT I think.
How serious the Serbian team is it shows by sending a FM and a not so important Minister to deal with the "most important" thing for Serbia!
They want only to delay things,but I don't know for how long.
The Prishtina team should not mention the 10th of the December as a deadline.How many deadlines we had so far?!
They should say that they won't negotiate any longer about future of Kosovo,but they should wait until they are 100% sure and then...
My win-win,North of Ibar to join Serbia,the rest of Kosova to get fully independence and once and for all we want be "the abortion"of Balkans or "tumor"of Serbia,but we would be a beautiful Kosova!!!
Please go and visit Kosova/o,even though unemployment is high,dodgy dealings,the crime,beautiful restaurants,good food are there,
you will be surprised that in general Kosovans are welcoming and nice people.
That's I think is another FACT!!!
Kate: I don't see how disagreeing with Tom O'Donoghue and presenting the arguments you have for that disagreement can be seen as defensive or whatever. Tom was speaking from the Irish vantage point which simply does not apply at all to the Kosova situation. It's that simple and there is no need to be on the defensive.
Peter' I agree with you that in the end Serbia will probably get part of Northern Kosova and I frankly see it as not such a bad thing because I do not believe that the Serbs living there would ever recognize the legitimacy of the future state of Kosova. They would be a constant source of trouble. However it would be a very messy situation if that were to happen. First of all there are a lot of Albanian villages in the North too, although the Serbs form the majority so I do not know how it could be a clean process. Then there is the issue of the remaining Serb enclaves. If there is partition they would get no autonomy I think as there would simply be too few of them and no K-Albanian would be in the mood to agree to such a thing. Then there is Macedonia, RS in Bosnia, Presheva, and the same partition principle could very well apply to all of them.
In any case what is certain is that Serbia has no chances of ever ruling over 90% of Kosova again. And I sincerely think that the Serb delegation in Vienna fell into a political trap by allowing their frustration to show and using the sort of language they did. It simply revealed their real attitude towards Kosova at a time when what would serve their interests much better would be a more conciliatory tone.
Who cares what this albanian negotiating team has to say, when they make such provocative comments like that?
The fact is that they have no right to be living in Serbia and at the same time demanding to steal its territory. There will not be another albania on Serbian soil.
Smile,
I am pleased that I make you smile or laugh. I have got one more thing for you after your "but i must say that this kind of statement will get everyone reading it at least smile while some may even laugh. kosovo is serbia's southern vojvodina northern province. yugolsavia had six republic".
If you go back let's say before 1976 to the last Yugoslavian Constitution with the new Serbian "offer" Kosova had the same powers as the other republics? Correct? We are talking hypothetically in the last century event. Would Serbia "allow" the Kosovar Albanians to take part in the Federative Republic of Serbia? The right of veto within the new "Federation". I just wanted to put a smile or a laugh in everyone's face in here especially Kate's and you Smile!
"Northern Kosovo" being recognized would send the entire Balkans, Europe and world into a series of independence declarations, which don't have the excuse of the NATO bombings to stop genocide.
So if Russia recognizes Northern Kosovo, it will also be faced with areas like Presevo Valley and Western Macedonia declaring independence and then...on what grounds, would Russia not recognize them?
Politics is played by precedents. Russia can't just say "Oh, you're Albanians, we won't recognize you!"
It will have to come up with better reasoning, and it won't be able to come up with any, because of the "Northern Kosovo" precedent.
The idea of partitioning is dead because the game has been played in such a way that it's an all or nothing kind of thing.
We all know what will happen: Everything North of the Ibar River will want union with Serbia and will push for independence. Russia will probably end up recognizing it even, so what difference does it make? It won't end on Dec 10th.
There should just be a final decision by the major powers. Either yes or no.
These talks are going nowhere, I can see that both sides have not made much headway and will not find a common consensus. Both sides will lose something by either decision, and both sides will gain something at the same time, so let there be a final stand.
We're going back to basics.
Independence is the only viable solution.
Serbia NEEDS CHANGE. Move forward. Forget the past and the orthodoxy, EU is the answer.
Serb politicians are trying to hold on to something that is already gone.
"Who said you Kosova is a Serbian province? Kosova was a part of Yugoslavia which doesn't exist any more."
dont think that i'm here to further your cause and point to your mistakes, but i must say that this kind of statement will get everyone reading it at least smile while some may even laugh. kosovo is serbia's southern vojvodina northern province. yugolsavia had six republic. of course you know that. what i wonder is why, how is it possible that you think denying something so blatantly obvious will help you and your argument.
"“They used outdated vocabulary which put a burden on the process – Kosovo is a Serbian province, Kosovo and Metohija, we’ll never recognize you – was the context in which they operated,” Sejdiu said."...and he added that this is a well known phrases from Milosevic era.
Serbs are still speaking, without any respect or dignity about Kosova, let alone the inhabitants of Kosova, that why , there can be only one solution, two states, and is let up to serbs if they want good or bad relations in betwen.
"dont think that i'm here to further your cause and point to your mistakes, but i must say that this kind of statement will get everyone reading it at least smile while some may even laugh. kosovo is serbia's southern vojvodina northern province. yugolsavia had six republic. of course you know that. what i wonder is why, how is it possible that you think denying something so blatantly obvious will help you and your argument.
(smile, 24. October 2007 13:24)"
I think you are making yourself funny too, tell me then, if Kosova or Vojvodina had no sayig in exYU, why then the presidency of ex YU was made of 8 members?
Kate,
Who said you Kosova is a Serbian province? Kosova was a part of Yugoslavia which doesn't exist any more. Serbia was forced out Kosova and you know why. If you don't know watch the BBC programme Kosovo's War Fair or Bias. It is free. Serbia has no influence whatsoever as a sovran country over Kosova since 1999. These are the real FACTS. If you you are going into the negotiations as M puts it quite rightly "by belittling the Kosovar Albanians politicians and their citizens without any respect whatsoever" you will not go very far. It tells what a waste of time these "negotiations" are.
EA - The BBC programme, whichever one it is, is purely one programme out of many made which would provide arguments for both sides of the debate. There is an excellent documentary made by Channel 4 fronted by Jonathan Dimbleby which shows elderly Serbian people quaking with fear as they wait for the KLA thugs in Pristina to come knocking on their door.
But if you want to point at the BBC as a source, then it also states (may times but eg. here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/3524092.stm) that Kosovo is "a landlocked province within Serbia".
As you must know, when Yugoslavia was broken up, Kosovo legally remained a province of Serbia, as it had also been within FRY.
But Kosovo IS still a Serbian province. If the Pristina delegation are in such a state of denial and refuse to even accept the current legal status of Kosovo (which is a fact not some sort of perception) then how can they seriously expect to move forward?
It can't be classed as 'provocation' to state the current legal status of on of your nation's provinces, even if the Kosovo Albanian delegation wish it were otherwise.
Sejdiu: "...we also said that independence and sovereignty for Kosovo would be allowed."
That's a very immature diplomatic statement! "It will be so, we said it will, so there!"
Honestly, I hope this all gets sorted out realistically and in a way that can move everyone into a modern and progressive future. And for those on this site who argue that Kosovo is already progressive - no, it is not. Some of the statements are like something from the Dark Ages!
I also have to make the point that by responding to people like Tom from Ireland in such an aggressive way as displayed on another thread, without any actual consideration of the point that he is putting forward or valid counter argument, it just makes posters look like they HAVE to resort to taking a defensive position.
That is what people do when they don't have a valid argument. It is the same as putting your hands over your ears and singing, but it doesn't change the FACTS.
Well well well, no wonder yesterday Serbian delegation were so optimistic about the meeting in Vienna on Monday. It just shows that once a bully always a bully.
Oxford dictionary- negotiate- ‘ try to reach an agreement or compromise by discussion.’
It just confirms that nothing has changed since the last brutal regime of Milosevic, which was confirmed by your former FM Drazkovic.
However, this is only strengthening the case for recognition of Independence as they Serb politicians once again are confirming by belittling the Kosovar Albanians politicians and their citizens without any respect whatsoever.
What the Serb politicians are forgetting is that Kosovar delegation have the backing of their citizens over 95% as President Sejdiu said; “we said who we were and defined the political will of Kosovo’s citizens, we also said that independence and sovereignty for Kosovo would be allowed.”
You cannot rule 95% of the people against their will, this is 21st century and the will of the people is the key to any long lasting sustainable solution for Kosova/o. Thus, the outcome of status for final status has been made clear to the world and there is nothing that will stop that.
To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war. Churchill
Remarks at a White House luncheon (1954-06-26).
No one said they would be eay talks and "compromise" solutions will be heated but the alternative illegal solutions will lead to the greatest damage possible for stability of which the US do not care as can be witnessed in Iraq when the US last oushed for illegal resolutions.
It will become clearer and clearer that Belgrade is not interested in REAL talks. Now the "negotiations" are getting nasty and and I am not suprised. As least the Serbian government should have the decency to admit that there is no agreement between the parties when it comes to SOVEREIGNITY of Kosova rather dragging the process for ever. They should move on the things that they can agree as it was proposed by Troika document of 14 points. Being realistic it is not for Serbia to decide the sovereignity of Kosova but for international community. That is why it is unhelpful and obstructive to use these "negotiations" to solve the Status issue. If the Serbian government continues on that line, I do not see any need to continue these kind of negotiations and the Kosovar Albanians should consider proclaiming the independence on the 28th of November 2007 rather the after the 10th of December.
But Kosovo IS still a Serbian province. If the Pristina delegation are in such a state of denial and refuse to even accept the current legal status of Kosovo (which is a fact not some sort of perception) then how can they seriously expect to move forward?
It can't be classed as 'provocation' to state the current legal status of on of your nation's provinces, even if the Kosovo Albanian delegation wish it were otherwise.
Sejdiu: "...we also said that independence and sovereignty for Kosovo would be allowed."
That's a very immature diplomatic statement! "It will be so, we said it will, so there!"
Honestly, I hope this all gets sorted out realistically and in a way that can move everyone into a modern and progressive future. And for those on this site who argue that Kosovo is already progressive - no, it is not. Some of the statements are like something from the Dark Ages!
I also have to make the point that by responding to people like Tom from Ireland in such an aggressive way as displayed on another thread, without any actual consideration of the point that he is putting forward or valid counter argument, it just makes posters look like they HAVE to resort to taking a defensive position.
That is what people do when they don't have a valid argument. It is the same as putting your hands over your ears and singing, but it doesn't change the FACTS.
Well well well, no wonder yesterday Serbian delegation were so optimistic about the meeting in Vienna on Monday. It just shows that once a bully always a bully.
Oxford dictionary- negotiate- ‘ try to reach an agreement or compromise by discussion.’
It just confirms that nothing has changed since the last brutal regime of Milosevic, which was confirmed by your former FM Drazkovic.
However, this is only strengthening the case for recognition of Independence as they Serb politicians once again are confirming by belittling the Kosovar Albanians politicians and their citizens without any respect whatsoever.
What the Serb politicians are forgetting is that Kosovar delegation have the backing of their citizens over 95% as President Sejdiu said; “we said who we were and defined the political will of Kosovo’s citizens, we also said that independence and sovereignty for Kosovo would be allowed.”
You cannot rule 95% of the people against their will, this is 21st century and the will of the people is the key to any long lasting sustainable solution for Kosova/o. Thus, the outcome of status for final status has been made clear to the world and there is nothing that will stop that.
EA - The BBC programme, whichever one it is, is purely one programme out of many made which would provide arguments for both sides of the debate. There is an excellent documentary made by Channel 4 fronted by Jonathan Dimbleby which shows elderly Serbian people quaking with fear as they wait for the KLA thugs in Pristina to come knocking on their door.
But if you want to point at the BBC as a source, then it also states (may times but eg. here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/3524092.stm) that Kosovo is "a landlocked province within Serbia".
As you must know, when Yugoslavia was broken up, Kosovo legally remained a province of Serbia, as it had also been within FRY.
It will become clearer and clearer that Belgrade is not interested in REAL talks. Now the "negotiations" are getting nasty and and I am not suprised. As least the Serbian government should have the decency to admit that there is no agreement between the parties when it comes to SOVEREIGNITY of Kosova rather dragging the process for ever. They should move on the things that they can agree as it was proposed by Troika document of 14 points. Being realistic it is not for Serbia to decide the sovereignity of Kosova but for international community. That is why it is unhelpful and obstructive to use these "negotiations" to solve the Status issue. If the Serbian government continues on that line, I do not see any need to continue these kind of negotiations and the Kosovar Albanians should consider proclaiming the independence on the 28th of November 2007 rather the after the 10th of December.
Who cares what this albanian negotiating team has to say, when they make such provocative comments like that?
The fact is that they have no right to be living in Serbia and at the same time demanding to steal its territory. There will not be another albania on Serbian soil.
"Who said you Kosova is a Serbian province? Kosova was a part of Yugoslavia which doesn't exist any more."
dont think that i'm here to further your cause and point to your mistakes, but i must say that this kind of statement will get everyone reading it at least smile while some may even laugh. kosovo is serbia's southern vojvodina northern province. yugolsavia had six republic. of course you know that. what i wonder is why, how is it possible that you think denying something so blatantly obvious will help you and your argument.
To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war. Churchill
Remarks at a White House luncheon (1954-06-26).
No one said they would be eay talks and "compromise" solutions will be heated but the alternative illegal solutions will lead to the greatest damage possible for stability of which the US do not care as can be witnessed in Iraq when the US last oushed for illegal resolutions.
Kate,
Who said you Kosova is a Serbian province? Kosova was a part of Yugoslavia which doesn't exist any more. Serbia was forced out Kosova and you know why. If you don't know watch the BBC programme Kosovo's War Fair or Bias. It is free. Serbia has no influence whatsoever as a sovran country over Kosova since 1999. These are the real FACTS. If you you are going into the negotiations as M puts it quite rightly "by belittling the Kosovar Albanians politicians and their citizens without any respect whatsoever" you will not go very far. It tells what a waste of time these "negotiations" are.
First, for the record, I don’t take sides in this “independence or not” conflict. I do however find it important that a lasting, peaceful solution is found.
This argument (”Kosovo is not a part of Serbia, it was a part of Yugoslavia, which no longer exists”) keeps coming up now and then.
Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia. Many strongly think that Serbia should let go of it, but to my knowledge, not one country (not even the US) goes saying “Serbia got it all wrong. Kosovo is not a part of Serbia, so let’s educate the Serbs on this misunderstanding, redraw the map, and be done with it”.
Has it not occurred to you that if you were right there would be no dispute, no negotiations, and no Ahtisaari plan? Kosovo would probably have become an independent country the minute Yugoslavia ceased to exist, if not earlier.
I understand that it is very convenient for you to discard Serbia’s claim on Kosovo as an illegitimate one, but it won’t help you efforts, because it’s a misconception.
"You say that "Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia." Who told you that? From your comments doesn't look that you have a great knowledge about the issue... Read and serch a bit more my friend before coming here and show us your "impartiality"."
All Carl said was that Kosovo is a recognised province in Serbia. What do you think it is? Already independent?
You can attempt to take the high moral ground all these years after matters were settled with UN Res. 1244, but it doesn't wash. Facts are facts, and please find me one official document which identifies Kosovo as an independent nation. There are none!
This is exactly the sort of agressive emotive approach used against other posters not in favour of independence. You can't shut everyone up with the same words over and over.
People, especially Europeans, have the right to disagree with you.
We all know what will happen: Everything North of the Ibar River will want union with Serbia and will push for independence. Russia will probably end up recognizing it even, so what difference does it make? It won't end on Dec 10th.
Smile,
I am pleased that I make you smile or laugh. I have got one more thing for you after your "but i must say that this kind of statement will get everyone reading it at least smile while some may even laugh. kosovo is serbia's southern vojvodina northern province. yugolsavia had six republic".
If you go back let's say before 1976 to the last Yugoslavian Constitution with the new Serbian "offer" Kosova had the same powers as the other republics? Correct? We are talking hypothetically in the last century event. Would Serbia "allow" the Kosovar Albanians to take part in the Federative Republic of Serbia? The right of veto within the new "Federation". I just wanted to put a smile or a laugh in everyone's face in here especially Kate's and you Smile!
We're going back to basics.
Independence is the only viable solution.
Serbia NEEDS CHANGE. Move forward. Forget the past and the orthodoxy, EU is the answer.
Serb politicians are trying to hold on to something that is already gone.
Kate: I don't see how disagreeing with Tom O'Donoghue and presenting the arguments you have for that disagreement can be seen as defensive or whatever. Tom was speaking from the Irish vantage point which simply does not apply at all to the Kosova situation. It's that simple and there is no need to be on the defensive.
Peter' I agree with you that in the end Serbia will probably get part of Northern Kosova and I frankly see it as not such a bad thing because I do not believe that the Serbs living there would ever recognize the legitimacy of the future state of Kosova. They would be a constant source of trouble. However it would be a very messy situation if that were to happen. First of all there are a lot of Albanian villages in the North too, although the Serbs form the majority so I do not know how it could be a clean process. Then there is the issue of the remaining Serb enclaves. If there is partition they would get no autonomy I think as there would simply be too few of them and no K-Albanian would be in the mood to agree to such a thing. Then there is Macedonia, RS in Bosnia, Presheva, and the same partition principle could very well apply to all of them.
In any case what is certain is that Serbia has no chances of ever ruling over 90% of Kosova again. And I sincerely think that the Serb delegation in Vienna fell into a political trap by allowing their frustration to show and using the sort of language they did. It simply revealed their real attitude towards Kosova at a time when what would serve their interests much better would be a more conciliatory tone.
I agree totally with Prishtina Team,they shouldn't discuss something they had already and has been taken away!!!
This is a FACT I think.
How serious the Serbian team is it shows by sending a FM and a not so important Minister to deal with the "most important" thing for Serbia!
They want only to delay things,but I don't know for how long.
The Prishtina team should not mention the 10th of the December as a deadline.How many deadlines we had so far?!
They should say that they won't negotiate any longer about future of Kosovo,but they should wait until they are 100% sure and then...
My win-win,North of Ibar to join Serbia,the rest of Kosova to get fully independence and once and for all we want be "the abortion"of Balkans or "tumor"of Serbia,but we would be a beautiful Kosova!!!
Please go and visit Kosova/o,even though unemployment is high,dodgy dealings,the crime,beautiful restaurants,good food are there,
you will be surprised that in general Kosovans are welcoming and nice people.
That's I think is another FACT!!!
You are confusing many things here. You say that "Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia." Who told you that? From your comments doesn't look that you have a great knowledge about the issue. Many people didn't know where Kosova was, maybe many American don't know where Serbia is or Albania. Can you tell me why Kosova why and when Kosova bacame so "famous" in the world? Let me help you to start with because of the echnic cleansing orchastrated by the Serbian State of Slobodan Milosevic and in 1999 Serbia was forced out of Kosova by NATO. Read and serch a bit more my friend before coming here and show us your "impartiality".
Carl said:"Has it not occurred to you that if you were right there would be no dispute, no negotiations, and no Ahtisaari plan? Kosovo would probably have become an independent country the minute Yugoslavia ceased to exist, if not earlier. "
Then Carl, by the same token Kosova/o is not Serbian. If you were right there would be no dispute, no negotiations, and no Ahtisaari plan? Kosova/o would probably have never been an international issue, it would never exist. So the fact as it stands now is that Kosova/o is neither Serbian nor independent. Those are the facts on the ground and that is why there are negotiations. OThe two solutions for it are to either be Serbian or Independent. I fail to see where the compromise is, unless you call compromise forcing once side to agree, which is what going to happen even though it will take time. 50 years from now Serbia will open its new embassy in Prishtina. Until then we will have a Kosova/o recognized by the most powerful nations as independent, but Serbia will be in denial. They will protest, they will walk out of many meetings, they will threaten, they will station their troops around the border,however 50 years from now they will realize they will never ever have sovereignty over Kosova/o again if they want to avoid another NATO bombing.
Kate you should know that this is a forum that supposed to be a constructive one, where everyone has an opportunity to express its own views in the matter, and not a militant one in nature.
Kate you say: This is exactly the sort of agressive emotive approach used against other posters not in favour of independence. You can't shut everyone up with the same words over and over.
If you can analyze it, you can see you are misleading the posters here. I don’t understand where do you see aggressive behavior by the Albanians in this forum? They are not threatening nor insulting anyone which is not the case with Serb posters, who use provocative vocabulary, by calling them terrorists, Serbian Albanians, rapists, drug dealers, Islamic fundamentalists, corroborating with Bin Laden and so on.
In contrary the Albanian posters are behaving themselves in a very civilized manner, thanking b-92 for their impartiality and the chance to voice their opinion.
Not falling a pray to your provocations, that is a class, and I am really proud of them
Kate you say: People, especially Europeans, have the right to disagree with you.
(kate, 24. October 2007 22:10)
You have the right to disagree with us. Do not talk for other Europeans, you not all the Europeans. And we have the right to disagree with you when our freedom is in question.
Just by you calling the Albanians aggressive posters, says enough about you.
I don’t understand where do you see the aggressiveness you talking about?
And that's right no one can stop us from wanting freedom not you not anyone, and if you qualify that as aggressiveness so be it.
Peace and prosperity for all mankind!
There should just be a final decision by the major powers. Either yes or no.
These talks are going nowhere, I can see that both sides have not made much headway and will not find a common consensus. Both sides will lose something by either decision, and both sides will gain something at the same time, so let there be a final stand.
"“They used outdated vocabulary which put a burden on the process – Kosovo is a Serbian province, Kosovo and Metohija, we’ll never recognize you – was the context in which they operated,” Sejdiu said."...and he added that this is a well known phrases from Milosevic era.
Serbs are still speaking, without any respect or dignity about Kosova, let alone the inhabitants of Kosova, that why , there can be only one solution, two states, and is let up to serbs if they want good or bad relations in betwen.
"dont think that i'm here to further your cause and point to your mistakes, but i must say that this kind of statement will get everyone reading it at least smile while some may even laugh. kosovo is serbia's southern vojvodina northern province. yugolsavia had six republic. of course you know that. what i wonder is why, how is it possible that you think denying something so blatantly obvious will help you and your argument.
(smile, 24. October 2007 13:24)"
I think you are making yourself funny too, tell me then, if Kosova or Vojvodina had no sayig in exYU, why then the presidency of ex YU was made of 8 members?
"Northern Kosovo" being recognized would send the entire Balkans, Europe and world into a series of independence declarations, which don't have the excuse of the NATO bombings to stop genocide.
So if Russia recognizes Northern Kosovo, it will also be faced with areas like Presevo Valley and Western Macedonia declaring independence and then...on what grounds, would Russia not recognize them?
Politics is played by precedents. Russia can't just say "Oh, you're Albanians, we won't recognize you!"
It will have to come up with better reasoning, and it won't be able to come up with any, because of the "Northern Kosovo" precedent.
The idea of partitioning is dead because the game has been played in such a way that it's an all or nothing kind of thing.
What you say teni is precisely the reason why I still wish for an agreement in the back of my mind. There will always be a group of dissatisfied people. The Serbs in Kosovo would be a constant source of trouble, then if it is partioned, Albanians in Northern Kosovo would be a constant source of trouble (probably uniting with the Presevo Valley Albanians) and it would just never end.
Partition along ethnic lines is a dangerous thing in a situation like this, and I see no real hope for a mutual agreement, which is why I am extremely critical of the USA and Russia for their pig-headed stubbornness. It is helping no one and will only cause problems. I pray that until 10-12-2007, Serbs and Albanians agree on something, but sadly, I doubt this will happen.
Funcakes
Funcakes, to the greatest degree, the potential Serbia/Kosovo divorce is based on ethnic lines. The exact same thing is happening in Georgia, with the separatist movements of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the Caucasus region has been the scene of equal bloodshed and ethnic hatred (more in fact, in terms of numbers of people killed and displaced)
The reasoning behind NATO sending armies in to stop genocide is for the most part, correct, but tell me, you think NATO would send in troops to assist the Georgians when Russian armies and advisors strongly back the separatist movements of South Ossetia and Abkhazia? No, they wouldn't same as how Russia did not assist Serbia against NATO. Georgia (and even Russia's own Chechnya) is within Russia's "sphere of influence" which NATO would not dare to interfere with, same as how Russia will not interfere on a military level in Kosovo, which is more in NATO's "sphere of influence". The conflict would be far too great.
My point being: splitting sovereign states in terms of ethnic groups is not unique anywhere, and if Kosovo gets independence, why shouldn't South Ossetia and Abkhazia?
Russia has threatened to recognize their unilateral independence and will probably do so, because it is in their sphere of influence, same as how the US will recognize Kosovo, because it is in NATO's sphere of influence.
It is an identical situation: groups of people are pawns in Russia and the US's silly, chauvinistic games.
Kate,
UN Res. 1244
I have said to you few times that Yugoslavia doesn't exist any more. According the the Yugoslavia Constitution Kosova has all the prerogatives of a republic including the Presidency, right of veto etc etc. These are FACTS and we are talking about a constitution many year back of 1976 (you can check the dates. Can you immagine Kosova being within Serbia with the same rights it had under Yugoslavian Constitution? I will try to put it politely to you that would be stupid thing to think. One more thing your refer to the Resolution 1244 as being a verse from the BIBLE that can not be change. You know that this resolution needs to be altered to match to the reality in Kosova. The trouble is the Russia is taking a fanatic slavic view on the matter and ready to veto any solution. They have made it clear that they are against the independence of Kosova. We understand that. USA and Europe understands that but believe me they will not allow Russia to take hostage the whole process of Kosova's issue. Russia hasn't done any investment politically and economically in Kosova. This is an EU and USA issue which are the bigest investors in stabilizing Kosova. These are real FACTS Kate.
“You are confusing many things here. You say that "Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia." Who told you that?”
Who told me that? Well, I should say it is common knowledge, but maybe you are right, I am not informed on the stance on the Kosovo issue of every single country on the planet. There may be countries in the world that considers Kosovo an independent country and not a part of Serbia. Please enlighten me, tell me which these are.
Meanwhile, let me give you a couple of examples of countries that do recognise Kosovo as a part of Serbia:
- The United States of America:
“While legally still part of Serbia, Kosovo remains an international protectorate of the United Nations as outlined in UN Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1244, which was passed June 10, 1999.”
(from the U.S Department of State official website: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5388.htm)
- The United Kingdom:
"Kosovo is a province of the Republic of Serbia but has been under interim UN administration since 1999"
(from the UK Government official website: http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029394365&a=KCountryProfile&aid=1159192560811)
If Pristina refuses to discuss autonomy which is one of the options on the table then why bother turning up for any negotiations at all.
They have made their position perfectly clear. Nothing less than independence will do. So until they get their wish they should just stay away from any more meetings and let the people who do turn up to those meeting make a decision.
Obviously Pristina has nothing more to contribute to the negotiations so why bother with them?
Do they think that but just turning up they will be seen as compromising?
Peter, again...Kosovo does not constitute a precedent because of the planned genocide, as well as the bombings which lead to Serbia withdrawing.
All those other regions have had conflicts and fights, but none of them were faced with an evil Milosevic masterplan that would just expell people just for being a certain ethnicity, on a massive scale, that brought the issue in an international scale.
We didn't even know about regions like South Ossetia and Abkhazia and what not until yesterday, while Kosovo is a very famous screenplay.
The only possible scenario is a declaration of independence. Whoever wants to recognize, will do so...
The Serbs have no right to stop Kosovo becoming independent when the Albanians form a majority in the region. The Bosnians don't have the right to stop the Serbs connecting Rep. Srpska to Serbia nor do the Bosnians have the right in interferring in Hercegovina becoming a part of Croatia where it should be.
indeed there won't be second Albania on Serbian soil, just Serbian soil will be a little smaller after Kosovo gets (or takes) what it already almost has.
And for that you can thank your blundering politicians, and no one else.
(Sending this again since it wasn't posted when I sent it last night)
EA,
“You are confusing many things here. You say that "Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia." Who told you that?”
Who told me that? Well, I should say it is common knowledge, but maybe you are right, I am not informed on the stance on the Kosovo issue of every single country on the planet. There may be countries in the world that considers Kosovo an independent country and not a part of Serbia. Please enlighten me, tell me which these are.
Meanwhile, let me give you a couple of examples of countries that do recognise Kosovo as a part of Serbia:
- The United States of America
“While legally still part of Serbia, Kosovo remains an international protectorate of the United Nations as outlined in UN Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1244, which was passed June 10, 1999.”
(from the U.S Department of State official website: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5388.htm)
- The United Kingdom
"Kosovo is a province of the Republic of Serbia but has been under interim UN administration since 1999"
(from the UK Government official website: http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029394365&a=KCountryProfile&aid=1159192560811)
" Sejdiu blamed Serbia for the tension, saying that the Belgrade team had provoked verbal conflicts between the two delegations at the Vienna meeting by presenting a stance that Kosovo was a Serbian province whose rights depended on the will of Belgrade"
I fail to see how stating this fact is provoking anyone. And Carl is absolutly right, Kosovo was never an state within Yugoslavia. It had more self rule almost like a state, but it never was a state, always a province within Serbia. It still is an legal part of Serbia.
Had it been an state like Bosnia or Croatia, there wouldn't be any talks at all and Kosovo would have been an independend state the minute Milosovic withdrew from Kosovo.
However does a constant repeat of saying, Kosovo is a Serbian province anyone any good. I don't think so a solution has to be found. I am not in favour of independence, while the Albanians don't see it that way I still think a full autonomy for the province is the best. With full self control, control over its border. And with an international agreement there is no need to be afraid that Belgrade will ever take the status away.
There are still more solutions, even and Independent Kosovo once it is in the E.U. with open borders with Serbia and free movenment of people and goods and protection of the Serbs and cultural heritage would be a good solution.
It will become clearer and clearer that Belgrade is not interested in REAL talks. Now the "negotiations" are getting nasty and and I am not suprised. As least the Serbian government should have the decency to admit that there is no agreement between the parties when it comes to SOVEREIGNITY of Kosova rather dragging the process for ever. They should move on the things that they can agree as it was proposed by Troika document of 14 points. Being realistic it is not for Serbia to decide the sovereignity of Kosova but for international community. That is why it is unhelpful and obstructive to use these "negotiations" to solve the Status issue. If the Serbian government continues on that line, I do not see any need to continue these kind of negotiations and the Kosovar Albanians should consider proclaiming the independence on the 28th of November 2007 rather the after the 10th of December.
Well well well, no wonder yesterday Serbian delegation were so optimistic about the meeting in Vienna on Monday. It just shows that once a bully always a bully.
Oxford dictionary- negotiate- ‘ try to reach an agreement or compromise by discussion.’
It just confirms that nothing has changed since the last brutal regime of Milosevic, which was confirmed by your former FM Drazkovic.
However, this is only strengthening the case for recognition of Independence as they Serb politicians once again are confirming by belittling the Kosovar Albanians politicians and their citizens without any respect whatsoever.
What the Serb politicians are forgetting is that Kosovar delegation have the backing of their citizens over 95% as President Sejdiu said; “we said who we were and defined the political will of Kosovo’s citizens, we also said that independence and sovereignty for Kosovo would be allowed.”
You cannot rule 95% of the people against their will, this is 21st century and the will of the people is the key to any long lasting sustainable solution for Kosova/o. Thus, the outcome of status for final status has been made clear to the world and there is nothing that will stop that.
Kate,
Who said you Kosova is a Serbian province? Kosova was a part of Yugoslavia which doesn't exist any more. Serbia was forced out Kosova and you know why. If you don't know watch the BBC programme Kosovo's War Fair or Bias. It is free. Serbia has no influence whatsoever as a sovran country over Kosova since 1999. These are the real FACTS. If you you are going into the negotiations as M puts it quite rightly "by belittling the Kosovar Albanians politicians and their citizens without any respect whatsoever" you will not go very far. It tells what a waste of time these "negotiations" are.
We're going back to basics.
Independence is the only viable solution.
Serbia NEEDS CHANGE. Move forward. Forget the past and the orthodoxy, EU is the answer.
Serb politicians are trying to hold on to something that is already gone.
"“They used outdated vocabulary which put a burden on the process – Kosovo is a Serbian province, Kosovo and Metohija, we’ll never recognize you – was the context in which they operated,” Sejdiu said."...and he added that this is a well known phrases from Milosevic era.
Serbs are still speaking, without any respect or dignity about Kosova, let alone the inhabitants of Kosova, that why , there can be only one solution, two states, and is let up to serbs if they want good or bad relations in betwen.
"dont think that i'm here to further your cause and point to your mistakes, but i must say that this kind of statement will get everyone reading it at least smile while some may even laugh. kosovo is serbia's southern vojvodina northern province. yugolsavia had six republic. of course you know that. what i wonder is why, how is it possible that you think denying something so blatantly obvious will help you and your argument.
(smile, 24. October 2007 13:24)"
I think you are making yourself funny too, tell me then, if Kosova or Vojvodina had no sayig in exYU, why then the presidency of ex YU was made of 8 members?
But Kosovo IS still a Serbian province. If the Pristina delegation are in such a state of denial and refuse to even accept the current legal status of Kosovo (which is a fact not some sort of perception) then how can they seriously expect to move forward?
It can't be classed as 'provocation' to state the current legal status of on of your nation's provinces, even if the Kosovo Albanian delegation wish it were otherwise.
Sejdiu: "...we also said that independence and sovereignty for Kosovo would be allowed."
That's a very immature diplomatic statement! "It will be so, we said it will, so there!"
Honestly, I hope this all gets sorted out realistically and in a way that can move everyone into a modern and progressive future. And for those on this site who argue that Kosovo is already progressive - no, it is not. Some of the statements are like something from the Dark Ages!
I also have to make the point that by responding to people like Tom from Ireland in such an aggressive way as displayed on another thread, without any actual consideration of the point that he is putting forward or valid counter argument, it just makes posters look like they HAVE to resort to taking a defensive position.
That is what people do when they don't have a valid argument. It is the same as putting your hands over your ears and singing, but it doesn't change the FACTS.
Kate: I don't see how disagreeing with Tom O'Donoghue and presenting the arguments you have for that disagreement can be seen as defensive or whatever. Tom was speaking from the Irish vantage point which simply does not apply at all to the Kosova situation. It's that simple and there is no need to be on the defensive.
Peter' I agree with you that in the end Serbia will probably get part of Northern Kosova and I frankly see it as not such a bad thing because I do not believe that the Serbs living there would ever recognize the legitimacy of the future state of Kosova. They would be a constant source of trouble. However it would be a very messy situation if that were to happen. First of all there are a lot of Albanian villages in the North too, although the Serbs form the majority so I do not know how it could be a clean process. Then there is the issue of the remaining Serb enclaves. If there is partition they would get no autonomy I think as there would simply be too few of them and no K-Albanian would be in the mood to agree to such a thing. Then there is Macedonia, RS in Bosnia, Presheva, and the same partition principle could very well apply to all of them.
In any case what is certain is that Serbia has no chances of ever ruling over 90% of Kosova again. And I sincerely think that the Serb delegation in Vienna fell into a political trap by allowing their frustration to show and using the sort of language they did. It simply revealed their real attitude towards Kosova at a time when what would serve their interests much better would be a more conciliatory tone.
Who cares what this albanian negotiating team has to say, when they make such provocative comments like that?
The fact is that they have no right to be living in Serbia and at the same time demanding to steal its territory. There will not be another albania on Serbian soil.
I agree totally with Prishtina Team,they shouldn't discuss something they had already and has been taken away!!!
This is a FACT I think.
How serious the Serbian team is it shows by sending a FM and a not so important Minister to deal with the "most important" thing for Serbia!
They want only to delay things,but I don't know for how long.
The Prishtina team should not mention the 10th of the December as a deadline.How many deadlines we had so far?!
They should say that they won't negotiate any longer about future of Kosovo,but they should wait until they are 100% sure and then...
My win-win,North of Ibar to join Serbia,the rest of Kosova to get fully independence and once and for all we want be "the abortion"of Balkans or "tumor"of Serbia,but we would be a beautiful Kosova!!!
Please go and visit Kosova/o,even though unemployment is high,dodgy dealings,the crime,beautiful restaurants,good food are there,
you will be surprised that in general Kosovans are welcoming and nice people.
That's I think is another FACT!!!
To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war. Churchill
Remarks at a White House luncheon (1954-06-26).
No one said they would be eay talks and "compromise" solutions will be heated but the alternative illegal solutions will lead to the greatest damage possible for stability of which the US do not care as can be witnessed in Iraq when the US last oushed for illegal resolutions.
"Northern Kosovo" being recognized would send the entire Balkans, Europe and world into a series of independence declarations, which don't have the excuse of the NATO bombings to stop genocide.
So if Russia recognizes Northern Kosovo, it will also be faced with areas like Presevo Valley and Western Macedonia declaring independence and then...on what grounds, would Russia not recognize them?
Politics is played by precedents. Russia can't just say "Oh, you're Albanians, we won't recognize you!"
It will have to come up with better reasoning, and it won't be able to come up with any, because of the "Northern Kosovo" precedent.
The idea of partitioning is dead because the game has been played in such a way that it's an all or nothing kind of thing.
Smile,
I am pleased that I make you smile or laugh. I have got one more thing for you after your "but i must say that this kind of statement will get everyone reading it at least smile while some may even laugh. kosovo is serbia's southern vojvodina northern province. yugolsavia had six republic".
If you go back let's say before 1976 to the last Yugoslavian Constitution with the new Serbian "offer" Kosova had the same powers as the other republics? Correct? We are talking hypothetically in the last century event. Would Serbia "allow" the Kosovar Albanians to take part in the Federative Republic of Serbia? The right of veto within the new "Federation". I just wanted to put a smile or a laugh in everyone's face in here especially Kate's and you Smile!
First, for the record, I don’t take sides in this “independence or not” conflict. I do however find it important that a lasting, peaceful solution is found.
This argument (”Kosovo is not a part of Serbia, it was a part of Yugoslavia, which no longer exists”) keeps coming up now and then.
Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia. Many strongly think that Serbia should let go of it, but to my knowledge, not one country (not even the US) goes saying “Serbia got it all wrong. Kosovo is not a part of Serbia, so let’s educate the Serbs on this misunderstanding, redraw the map, and be done with it”.
Has it not occurred to you that if you were right there would be no dispute, no negotiations, and no Ahtisaari plan? Kosovo would probably have become an independent country the minute Yugoslavia ceased to exist, if not earlier.
I understand that it is very convenient for you to discard Serbia’s claim on Kosovo as an illegitimate one, but it won’t help you efforts, because it’s a misconception.
indeed there won't be second Albania on Serbian soil, just Serbian soil will be a little smaller after Kosovo gets (or takes) what it already almost has.
And for that you can thank your blundering politicians, and no one else.
You are confusing many things here. You say that "Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia." Who told you that? From your comments doesn't look that you have a great knowledge about the issue. Many people didn't know where Kosova was, maybe many American don't know where Serbia is or Albania. Can you tell me why Kosova why and when Kosova bacame so "famous" in the world? Let me help you to start with because of the echnic cleansing orchastrated by the Serbian State of Slobodan Milosevic and in 1999 Serbia was forced out of Kosova by NATO. Read and serch a bit more my friend before coming here and show us your "impartiality".
(Sending this again since it wasn't posted when I sent it last night)
EA,
“You are confusing many things here. You say that "Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia." Who told you that?”
Who told me that? Well, I should say it is common knowledge, but maybe you are right, I am not informed on the stance on the Kosovo issue of every single country on the planet. There may be countries in the world that considers Kosovo an independent country and not a part of Serbia. Please enlighten me, tell me which these are.
Meanwhile, let me give you a couple of examples of countries that do recognise Kosovo as a part of Serbia:
- The United States of America
“While legally still part of Serbia, Kosovo remains an international protectorate of the United Nations as outlined in UN Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1244, which was passed June 10, 1999.”
(from the U.S Department of State official website: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5388.htm)
- The United Kingdom
"Kosovo is a province of the Republic of Serbia but has been under interim UN administration since 1999"
(from the UK Government official website: http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029394365&a=KCountryProfile&aid=1159192560811)
EA - The BBC programme, whichever one it is, is purely one programme out of many made which would provide arguments for both sides of the debate. There is an excellent documentary made by Channel 4 fronted by Jonathan Dimbleby which shows elderly Serbian people quaking with fear as they wait for the KLA thugs in Pristina to come knocking on their door.
But if you want to point at the BBC as a source, then it also states (may times but eg. here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/3524092.stm) that Kosovo is "a landlocked province within Serbia".
As you must know, when Yugoslavia was broken up, Kosovo legally remained a province of Serbia, as it had also been within FRY.
"Who said you Kosova is a Serbian province? Kosova was a part of Yugoslavia which doesn't exist any more."
dont think that i'm here to further your cause and point to your mistakes, but i must say that this kind of statement will get everyone reading it at least smile while some may even laugh. kosovo is serbia's southern vojvodina northern province. yugolsavia had six republic. of course you know that. what i wonder is why, how is it possible that you think denying something so blatantly obvious will help you and your argument.
There should just be a final decision by the major powers. Either yes or no.
These talks are going nowhere, I can see that both sides have not made much headway and will not find a common consensus. Both sides will lose something by either decision, and both sides will gain something at the same time, so let there be a final stand.
We all know what will happen: Everything North of the Ibar River will want union with Serbia and will push for independence. Russia will probably end up recognizing it even, so what difference does it make? It won't end on Dec 10th.
What you say teni is precisely the reason why I still wish for an agreement in the back of my mind. There will always be a group of dissatisfied people. The Serbs in Kosovo would be a constant source of trouble, then if it is partioned, Albanians in Northern Kosovo would be a constant source of trouble (probably uniting with the Presevo Valley Albanians) and it would just never end.
Partition along ethnic lines is a dangerous thing in a situation like this, and I see no real hope for a mutual agreement, which is why I am extremely critical of the USA and Russia for their pig-headed stubbornness. It is helping no one and will only cause problems. I pray that until 10-12-2007, Serbs and Albanians agree on something, but sadly, I doubt this will happen.
Funcakes
Funcakes, to the greatest degree, the potential Serbia/Kosovo divorce is based on ethnic lines. The exact same thing is happening in Georgia, with the separatist movements of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the Caucasus region has been the scene of equal bloodshed and ethnic hatred (more in fact, in terms of numbers of people killed and displaced)
The reasoning behind NATO sending armies in to stop genocide is for the most part, correct, but tell me, you think NATO would send in troops to assist the Georgians when Russian armies and advisors strongly back the separatist movements of South Ossetia and Abkhazia? No, they wouldn't same as how Russia did not assist Serbia against NATO. Georgia (and even Russia's own Chechnya) is within Russia's "sphere of influence" which NATO would not dare to interfere with, same as how Russia will not interfere on a military level in Kosovo, which is more in NATO's "sphere of influence". The conflict would be far too great.
My point being: splitting sovereign states in terms of ethnic groups is not unique anywhere, and if Kosovo gets independence, why shouldn't South Ossetia and Abkhazia?
Russia has threatened to recognize their unilateral independence and will probably do so, because it is in their sphere of influence, same as how the US will recognize Kosovo, because it is in NATO's sphere of influence.
It is an identical situation: groups of people are pawns in Russia and the US's silly, chauvinistic games.
"You say that "Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia." Who told you that? From your comments doesn't look that you have a great knowledge about the issue... Read and serch a bit more my friend before coming here and show us your "impartiality"."
All Carl said was that Kosovo is a recognised province in Serbia. What do you think it is? Already independent?
You can attempt to take the high moral ground all these years after matters were settled with UN Res. 1244, but it doesn't wash. Facts are facts, and please find me one official document which identifies Kosovo as an independent nation. There are none!
This is exactly the sort of agressive emotive approach used against other posters not in favour of independence. You can't shut everyone up with the same words over and over.
People, especially Europeans, have the right to disagree with you.
Kate,
UN Res. 1244
I have said to you few times that Yugoslavia doesn't exist any more. According the the Yugoslavia Constitution Kosova has all the prerogatives of a republic including the Presidency, right of veto etc etc. These are FACTS and we are talking about a constitution many year back of 1976 (you can check the dates. Can you immagine Kosova being within Serbia with the same rights it had under Yugoslavian Constitution? I will try to put it politely to you that would be stupid thing to think. One more thing your refer to the Resolution 1244 as being a verse from the BIBLE that can not be change. You know that this resolution needs to be altered to match to the reality in Kosova. The trouble is the Russia is taking a fanatic slavic view on the matter and ready to veto any solution. They have made it clear that they are against the independence of Kosova. We understand that. USA and Europe understands that but believe me they will not allow Russia to take hostage the whole process of Kosova's issue. Russia hasn't done any investment politically and economically in Kosova. This is an EU and USA issue which are the bigest investors in stabilizing Kosova. These are real FACTS Kate.
“You are confusing many things here. You say that "Every country in the world recognises Kosovo as a part of Serbia." Who told you that?”
Who told me that? Well, I should say it is common knowledge, but maybe you are right, I am not informed on the stance on the Kosovo issue of every single country on the planet. There may be countries in the world that considers Kosovo an independent country and not a part of Serbia. Please enlighten me, tell me which these are.
Meanwhile, let me give you a couple of examples of countries that do recognise Kosovo as a part of Serbia:
- The United States of America:
“While legally still part of Serbia, Kosovo remains an international protectorate of the United Nations as outlined in UN Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1244, which was passed June 10, 1999.”
(from the U.S Department of State official website: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5388.htm)
- The United Kingdom:
"Kosovo is a province of the Republic of Serbia but has been under interim UN administration since 1999"
(from the UK Government official website: http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029394365&a=KCountryProfile&aid=1159192560811)
If Pristina refuses to discuss autonomy which is one of the options on the table then why bother turning up for any negotiations at all.
They have made their position perfectly clear. Nothing less than independence will do. So until they get their wish they should just stay away from any more meetings and let the people who do turn up to those meeting make a decision.
Obviously Pristina has nothing more to contribute to the negotiations so why bother with them?
Do they think that but just turning up they will be seen as compromising?
Carl said:"Has it not occurred to you that if you were right there would be no dispute, no negotiations, and no Ahtisaari plan? Kosovo would probably have become an independent country the minute Yugoslavia ceased to exist, if not earlier. "
Then Carl, by the same token Kosova/o is not Serbian. If you were right there would be no dispute, no negotiations, and no Ahtisaari plan? Kosova/o would probably have never been an international issue, it would never exist. So the fact as it stands now is that Kosova/o is neither Serbian nor independent. Those are the facts on the ground and that is why there are negotiations. OThe two solutions for it are to either be Serbian or Independent. I fail to see where the compromise is, unless you call compromise forcing once side to agree, which is what going to happen even though it will take time. 50 years from now Serbia will open its new embassy in Prishtina. Until then we will have a Kosova/o recognized by the most powerful nations as independent, but Serbia will be in denial. They will protest, they will walk out of many meetings, they will threaten, they will station their troops around the border,however 50 years from now they will realize they will never ever have sovereignty over Kosova/o again if they want to avoid another NATO bombing.
Kate you should know that this is a forum that supposed to be a constructive one, where everyone has an opportunity to express its own views in the matter, and not a militant one in nature.
Kate you say: This is exactly the sort of agressive emotive approach used against other posters not in favour of independence. You can't shut everyone up with the same words over and over.
If you can analyze it, you can see you are misleading the posters here. I don’t understand where do you see aggressive behavior by the Albanians in this forum? They are not threatening nor insulting anyone which is not the case with Serb posters, who use provocative vocabulary, by calling them terrorists, Serbian Albanians, rapists, drug dealers, Islamic fundamentalists, corroborating with Bin Laden and so on.
In contrary the Albanian posters are behaving themselves in a very civilized manner, thanking b-92 for their impartiality and the chance to voice their opinion.
Not falling a pray to your provocations, that is a class, and I am really proud of them
Kate you say: People, especially Europeans, have the right to disagree with you.
(kate, 24. October 2007 22:10)
You have the right to disagree with us. Do not talk for other Europeans, you not all the Europeans. And we have the right to disagree with you when our freedom is in question.
Just by you calling the Albanians aggressive posters, says enough about you.
I don’t understand where do you see the aggressiveness you talking about?
And that's right no one can stop us from wanting freedom not you not anyone, and if you qualify that as aggressiveness so be it.
Peace and prosperity for all mankind!
Peter, again...Kosovo does not constitute a precedent because of the planned genocide, as well as the bombings which lead to Serbia withdrawing.
All those other regions have had conflicts and fights, but none of them were faced with an evil Milosevic masterplan that would just expell people just for being a certain ethnicity, on a massive scale, that brought the issue in an international scale.
We didn't even know about regions like South Ossetia and Abkhazia and what not until yesterday, while Kosovo is a very famous screenplay.
The only possible scenario is a declaration of independence. Whoever wants to recognize, will do so...
The Serbs have no right to stop Kosovo becoming independent when the Albanians form a majority in the region. The Bosnians don't have the right to stop the Serbs connecting Rep. Srpska to Serbia nor do the Bosnians have the right in interferring in Hercegovina becoming a part of Croatia where it should be.
" Sejdiu blamed Serbia for the tension, saying that the Belgrade team had provoked verbal conflicts between the two delegations at the Vienna meeting by presenting a stance that Kosovo was a Serbian province whose rights depended on the will of Belgrade"
I fail to see how stating this fact is provoking anyone. And Carl is absolutly right, Kosovo was never an state within Yugoslavia. It had more self rule almost like a state, but it never was a state, always a province within Serbia. It still is an legal part of Serbia.
Had it been an state like Bosnia or Croatia, there wouldn't be any talks at all and Kosovo would have been an independend state the minute Milosovic withdrew from Kosovo.
However does a constant repeat of saying, Kosovo is a Serbian province anyone any good. I don't think so a solution has to be found. I am not in favour of independence, while the Albanians don't see it that way I still think a full autonomy for the province is the best. With full self control, control over its border. And with an international agreement there is no need to be afraid that Belgrade will ever take the status away.
There are still more solutions, even and Independent Kosovo once it is in the E.U. with open borders with Serbia and free movenment of people and goods and protection of the Serbs and cultural heritage would be a good solution.
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