Kosovo - Example for secessionists

Every secessionist movement around the world is watching the Kosovo situation very, very closely.
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/10/8748c1ca-a82c-444b-b2a9-df357251aa54.html
EA - you spread lies on here on a daily basis. The people who started the wars are clearly the albanian terrorists, who have been ethnically cleansing Serbs long before Milosevic was around. The way the albanians treat minorities today, who have to live behind barbed wire and need military escorts just to go grocery shopping, is a fine example of what kind of xenophobic society albanians would love to create. The fact that the US actually supports your xenophobic goals is mind boggling.
http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/091.shtml
If you would like to see how a multi-cultural society is supposed to function, have a visit to Belgrade where thousands of albanians live in peace and harmony with Serbs. 'Tolerance' is not something that is in your vocabulary, and that is why you don't belong in the EU.

If Kosovo is allowed to make a Unilateral Declaration of Independence, it will be just the beginning of conflicts in Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia and South Serbia. Not the least of the conflicts will be between Ethnic Albanians and NATO, which has no intention of allowing Kosovo true independence.

"After the meeting, Šutanovac said that recognizing Kosovo independence would cause a crisis in many countries where secessionist tensions existed"
Kosova is a "sui generis" case and the attempts to mislead the international community don't work anymore. If a state is engaged in echnic cleansing and suppressing its "own" people it is taking the risk of losing these people and the territory where they live in. Serbia started the war in former Yugoslavia and lost it all of them. So there is a winner and a looser. Where in the world's history NATO had to intervene other than to stop the brutality of the Serbian leader Sllobodan Milloshevic? I know that many Serbs want to "forget" about it, as they want to "forget" about their unilateral action to rush their Constitution through without asking the Kosovar Albanians and claiming that Kosova is part of Serbia. On the other side is asking the international community to refrain the Kosovar Albanians from proclaming their independence after the 10th of December. I am sure that the Albanians have learned from their history. It is now or never.

I hear all this talk about Kosova becoming an example etc, etc, etc. Isn't it a bit naive though to expect the situation in Chenchnya or for the Tamils in Sri Lanka to suddenly change after Kosova becomes independent? Of course nothing will change: the Chechens or Tamils will keep on fighting as before and so will their adversaries and the world won't do anything at all about it. So where is the danger?

Teni
Why would Russia or China risk setting up a precedent US could threaten them with in the future? Ur right they wouldnt. So Kosovo will never be independent.

Illyrians = Albanian is only espoused in history books disseminated in majority Albanain lands to brainwash its populace into believing they are somehow superior to all other nationalities in S.E. Europe. There IS NO evidence that Albanians were in Kosovo prior to the arrival of Serbs. NONE. Considering that some figures have Albanians comprising as much as 98% of Kosovo's populace, such effective elimination of the Serb population can be considered nothing short of usurpation.

teni

You don't understand, it is not that separatists will declare unilateral independence (they have all done this already, just no one has recognized them) what will happen is Russia and others will recognize the independence of areas such as South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh and Pridnestrovie. Why? Because if Kosovo can get independence outside the UNSC, why shouldn't the latter? How is Kosovo different from Abkhazia or South Ossetia, please tell me!

I would love one single Albanian here telling me how Kosovo is unique in comparison. I imagine it would be one of two arguments:

1) Albanians have been living there centuries before the Serbs (which as I have said, is only partially correct, as the Illyrians are partial or full ancestors of both Albanians and Serbs, they inhabited most of the Balkans, Slavs only slavicized a portion of the population and the Serbian culture was born in Kosovo), which is wrong, because it wasn't the Serbs who came there in the 6th Century, it was the Slavs, Albanians claiming to be the only ancestors of the Illyrians is what we call chauvinism or nationalism.

2) Serbian treatment of the Albanians (fair enough, I agree with this, however, why shouldn't the others get independence? Just go and read about some of the wars in the Caucasus and you will see. They were more brutal and have left far more dead and displaced than all Yugoslav wars, aside from the Bosnian War)

So bottom line: there will be no preferential treatment for Kosovo. If they get independence at the behest of the US, the other states I mentioned will get independence at the behest of Russia. Fair is fair. Just the consequences might be catastrophic.

EA

"Kosova is a "sui generis" case and the attempts to mislead the international community don't work anymore."

EA, Russian can easily recognize the regions I mentioned to Teni and it will be no different than Kosovo being recognized by the States. Abkhazians and Ossetians were also victims of brutal opression by the Georgians, Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh probably need no description, we all know about 1915 and Pridnestrovie was also suppressed and attacked by Moldova, resulting in thousands of deaths. I would like you to take the time and read about these scenarios, and you will see what I mean. Of course I have no problem with Kosovo, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Pridnestrovie and Nagorno-Karabakh being independent, all people deserve their own land, especially after oppression, but the question is: is it right to risk stability of a region by bypassing international law if other states disagree (especially if it is within their borders)?

"If a state is engaged in echnic cleansing and suppressing its "own" people it is taking the risk of losing these people and the territory where they live in."

I agree with you EA, but this does not make Kosovo an exception, Turkish/Iraqi/Iranian Kurdistan, Russian Chechnya and Chinese Tibet have also been brutally suppressed in the past (far more than Kosovo numercially, though please don't assume I measure human tragedy in terms of numbers, a murder is a murder), and by this criteria they are all waiting to see what will happen in Kosovo. If everyone is willing to let these oppressed people go and do their own thing, I would agree 100%, but if it risks open war and further human suffering, is it really worth it? Hence my arguments for agreement (though we have spoken as to why agreements cannot always be reached and I agreed with you).

Dragan, nice link. It is from 2006.

It is naive to say that EA is lying. At first you were claiming that Kosova is the cradle of civilization, no one was bitting. No you've been claiming that will start a precedents, that's not bitting either...how about giving up while ahead (chance @ EU) before that is gone and you're stuck in a landlocked country.

Dragan, I just saw, serbianna.com?? You make me smile.

I refuse to read anything from that website, I'm not much into fiction stories or books.

Yes, indeed! Every Kurd now will say: if Kosovo, why not Kurdistan?

EA, KS, others: Kosovo is not worth all of this.

A solution must be agreed on, by BOTH sides. See Sudan/South-Sudan.

Good luck!

teni,

You say: the world will do nothing? So why make an exception for Kosovo?

I have written this before, but for your info I'll write it up again, the Balkans north of Greece and south of Slavic and Ugric inhabited territories were originally inhabited by three major tribes: Illyrians, Thracians and Dacians.

Dacians lived in regions mostly around Romania and Moldova (they were latinized during the times of the Roman and later Byzantine Empires and hence became known as the Vlachs)

Thracians (lived mostly around Bulgaria, Greece and European Turkey, all were assimilated by Greeks, Bulgars and later Turkic tribes)

Illyrians lived around the central and western Balkans (in other words, former Yugoslavia). These were also subject to Roman and Byzantine influence, but it was only with the Slavic invasions of the 6th Century that parts of these Illyrian populations were subject to Slavic assimilation and Slavicization. The Illyrian populations that escaped Slavicization were located mostly in present day Albania, due to the mountains. The proof of this is in the genetics:

Slavic populations of Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia, Russia, Ukraine and Belarus display strong traces of Haplotype R1A.

Balkan populations (and I mean all of them north of Greece) display strong traces of Haplotype I.

There you have it, history and genetics prove what I am saying.

So Serbian and Albanian chauvinists take note: you are both close genetically, you just have different cultures due to foreign influence.

Any Serbs claiming they are pure Slavs or Albanians claiming pure Illyrian descent are either chauvinist, nationalist or both. Stop being brainwashed and try to read a book.

Dragan: Let us assume for a moment for argument's sake that what you are saying is true. How in the world would you then explain the fact that the Serbs are accused by the whole world of having perpetrated ethnic cleansing and the worst crimes in Europe since World War 2? It is not just the Albanians who level those accusations against you after all, but also the Croats, Bosnian Muslims, and the best part of the International Community.
Or do you simply brush it off as the Serbs are very good at doing, as some sort of anti-Serb conspiracy?
And then even if the KLA started the war - although it had very good reasons for doing so - the conlict had started when Milosevic removed Kosova's autonomy and in any case does that justify the massacres, rapes, and ethnic cleansing that followed?
And as for Serbia being multicultural and multi ethnic I guess most of those cultures and ethnic groups are not really happy with that as is shown by the conditions in Sandzak, Vojvodina etc. For God's sake even B92 has a rubric called Unrest in Sandzak and new about Hungrarians protesting.

some serbs in here are dreaming of being not slavs but illyrian desendent, then they must be albanian. if not their theory is not standing at all. because never a serb is mentioned for an illyrian origin.
at least albanians are.
of course dream on, or if you dig to deep you may discover that you are albanian, which is not the case in your case

No offence to the commentator about belgrade! I agree with you that a metropolis would be multicultural. People tend to have a higher tolerance level then folks in the country side. They are exposed to more and have to swallow more of their pride then ppl in the outskirts of any city.
Now lets look at the makeup of your commanders and generals in your mighty army. Where are they from???

Still guessing? The majority are from smaller towns, villages, etc. And if they are from the city they are from the poor areas of it.

You my friend would question such a command since you live in Belgrade (my assumption that you do)? I hope you would question it. The folks that were in the military in Kosovo/a were the non tolerant folks of your country. That were never exposed to other cultures but their own.

In short Belgrade is an exception, go outside of Belgrade and see how ppl truly think? Or Feel? They are not like ppl in Belgrade but closed minded. Do not compare the city with the country side.

To Charles Alverson: "# If Kosovo is allowed to make a Unilateral Declaration of Independence,"

No one "allows" you to make a declaration of independence. You make the declaration when you think it's worthy and when you think it will succeed. K-Albanians think just that.

Republica Srpska also can declare its independence if serbs living there think it will be worthy and recognized by other countries. No one can prevent them to do so. In fact they did it during Bosnia war and for three year no-one, even Serbia did recognize that independence.

The same applies to all other hot spots that media so much talk about.

Dragan, nice link. It is from 2006.

It is naive to say that EA is lying. At first you were claiming that Kosova is the cradle of civilization, no one was bitting. No you've been claiming that will start a precedents, that's not bitting either...how about giving up while ahead (chance @ EU) before that is gone and you're stuck in a landlocked country.

Dragan: Let us assume for a moment for argument's sake that what you are saying is true. How in the world would you then explain the fact that the Serbs are accused by the whole world of having perpetrated ethnic cleansing and the worst crimes in Europe since World War 2? It is not just the Albanians who level those accusations against you after all, but also the Croats, Bosnian Muslims, and the best part of the International Community.
Or do you simply brush it off as the Serbs are very good at doing, as some sort of anti-Serb conspiracy?
And then even if the KLA started the war - although it had very good reasons for doing so - the conlict had started when Milosevic removed Kosova's autonomy and in any case does that justify the massacres, rapes, and ethnic cleansing that followed?
And as for Serbia being multicultural and multi ethnic I guess most of those cultures and ethnic groups are not really happy with that as is shown by the conditions in Sandzak, Vojvodina etc. For God's sake even B92 has a rubric called Unrest in Sandzak and new about Hungrarians protesting.

some serbs in here are dreaming of being not slavs but illyrian desendent, then they must be albanian. if not their theory is not standing at all. because never a serb is mentioned for an illyrian origin.
at least albanians are.
of course dream on, or if you dig to deep you may discover that you are albanian, which is not the case in your case

I hear all this talk about Kosova becoming an example etc, etc, etc. Isn't it a bit naive though to expect the situation in Chenchnya or for the Tamils in Sri Lanka to suddenly change after Kosova becomes independent? Of course nothing will change: the Chechens or Tamils will keep on fighting as before and so will their adversaries and the world won't do anything at all about it. So where is the danger?

"After the meeting, Šutanovac said that recognizing Kosovo independence would cause a crisis in many countries where secessionist tensions existed"
Kosova is a "sui generis" case and the attempts to mislead the international community don't work anymore. If a state is engaged in echnic cleansing and suppressing its "own" people it is taking the risk of losing these people and the territory where they live in. Serbia started the war in former Yugoslavia and lost it all of them. So there is a winner and a looser. Where in the world's history NATO had to intervene other than to stop the brutality of the Serbian leader Sllobodan Milloshevic? I know that many Serbs want to "forget" about it, as they want to "forget" about their unilateral action to rush their Constitution through without asking the Kosovar Albanians and claiming that Kosova is part of Serbia. On the other side is asking the international community to refrain the Kosovar Albanians from proclaming their independence after the 10th of December. I am sure that the Albanians have learned from their history. It is now or never.

If Kosovo is allowed to make a Unilateral Declaration of Independence, it will be just the beginning of conflicts in Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia and South Serbia. Not the least of the conflicts will be between Ethnic Albanians and NATO, which has no intention of allowing Kosovo true independence.

Dragan, I just saw, serbianna.com?? You make me smile.

I refuse to read anything from that website, I'm not much into fiction stories or books.

No offence to the commentator about belgrade! I agree with you that a metropolis would be multicultural. People tend to have a higher tolerance level then folks in the country side. They are exposed to more and have to swallow more of their pride then ppl in the outskirts of any city.
Now lets look at the makeup of your commanders and generals in your mighty army. Where are they from???

Still guessing? The majority are from smaller towns, villages, etc. And if they are from the city they are from the poor areas of it.

You my friend would question such a command since you live in Belgrade (my assumption that you do)? I hope you would question it. The folks that were in the military in Kosovo/a were the non tolerant folks of your country. That were never exposed to other cultures but their own.

In short Belgrade is an exception, go outside of Belgrade and see how ppl truly think? Or Feel? They are not like ppl in Belgrade but closed minded. Do not compare the city with the country side.

To Charles Alverson: "# If Kosovo is allowed to make a Unilateral Declaration of Independence,"

No one "allows" you to make a declaration of independence. You make the declaration when you think it's worthy and when you think it will succeed. K-Albanians think just that.

Republica Srpska also can declare its independence if serbs living there think it will be worthy and recognized by other countries. No one can prevent them to do so. In fact they did it during Bosnia war and for three year no-one, even Serbia did recognize that independence.

The same applies to all other hot spots that media so much talk about.

Every secessionist movement around the world is watching the Kosovo situation very, very closely.
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/10/8748c1ca-a82c-444b-b2a9-df357251aa54.html
EA - you spread lies on here on a daily basis. The people who started the wars are clearly the albanian terrorists, who have been ethnically cleansing Serbs long before Milosevic was around. The way the albanians treat minorities today, who have to live behind barbed wire and need military escorts just to go grocery shopping, is a fine example of what kind of xenophobic society albanians would love to create. The fact that the US actually supports your xenophobic goals is mind boggling.
http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/091.shtml
If you would like to see how a multi-cultural society is supposed to function, have a visit to Belgrade where thousands of albanians live in peace and harmony with Serbs. 'Tolerance' is not something that is in your vocabulary, and that is why you don't belong in the EU.

Teni
Why would Russia or China risk setting up a precedent US could threaten them with in the future? Ur right they wouldnt. So Kosovo will never be independent.

teni

You don't understand, it is not that separatists will declare unilateral independence (they have all done this already, just no one has recognized them) what will happen is Russia and others will recognize the independence of areas such as South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh and Pridnestrovie. Why? Because if Kosovo can get independence outside the UNSC, why shouldn't the latter? How is Kosovo different from Abkhazia or South Ossetia, please tell me!

I would love one single Albanian here telling me how Kosovo is unique in comparison. I imagine it would be one of two arguments:

1) Albanians have been living there centuries before the Serbs (which as I have said, is only partially correct, as the Illyrians are partial or full ancestors of both Albanians and Serbs, they inhabited most of the Balkans, Slavs only slavicized a portion of the population and the Serbian culture was born in Kosovo), which is wrong, because it wasn't the Serbs who came there in the 6th Century, it was the Slavs, Albanians claiming to be the only ancestors of the Illyrians is what we call chauvinism or nationalism.

2) Serbian treatment of the Albanians (fair enough, I agree with this, however, why shouldn't the others get independence? Just go and read about some of the wars in the Caucasus and you will see. They were more brutal and have left far more dead and displaced than all Yugoslav wars, aside from the Bosnian War)

So bottom line: there will be no preferential treatment for Kosovo. If they get independence at the behest of the US, the other states I mentioned will get independence at the behest of Russia. Fair is fair. Just the consequences might be catastrophic.

EA

"Kosova is a "sui generis" case and the attempts to mislead the international community don't work anymore."

EA, Russian can easily recognize the regions I mentioned to Teni and it will be no different than Kosovo being recognized by the States. Abkhazians and Ossetians were also victims of brutal opression by the Georgians, Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh probably need no description, we all know about 1915 and Pridnestrovie was also suppressed and attacked by Moldova, resulting in thousands of deaths. I would like you to take the time and read about these scenarios, and you will see what I mean. Of course I have no problem with Kosovo, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Pridnestrovie and Nagorno-Karabakh being independent, all people deserve their own land, especially after oppression, but the question is: is it right to risk stability of a region by bypassing international law if other states disagree (especially if it is within their borders)?

"If a state is engaged in echnic cleansing and suppressing its "own" people it is taking the risk of losing these people and the territory where they live in."

I agree with you EA, but this does not make Kosovo an exception, Turkish/Iraqi/Iranian Kurdistan, Russian Chechnya and Chinese Tibet have also been brutally suppressed in the past (far more than Kosovo numercially, though please don't assume I measure human tragedy in terms of numbers, a murder is a murder), and by this criteria they are all waiting to see what will happen in Kosovo. If everyone is willing to let these oppressed people go and do their own thing, I would agree 100%, but if it risks open war and further human suffering, is it really worth it? Hence my arguments for agreement (though we have spoken as to why agreements cannot always be reached and I agreed with you).

Illyrians = Albanian is only espoused in history books disseminated in majority Albanain lands to brainwash its populace into believing they are somehow superior to all other nationalities in S.E. Europe. There IS NO evidence that Albanians were in Kosovo prior to the arrival of Serbs. NONE. Considering that some figures have Albanians comprising as much as 98% of Kosovo's populace, such effective elimination of the Serb population can be considered nothing short of usurpation.

Yes, indeed! Every Kurd now will say: if Kosovo, why not Kurdistan?

EA, KS, others: Kosovo is not worth all of this.

A solution must be agreed on, by BOTH sides. See Sudan/South-Sudan.

Good luck!

teni,

You say: the world will do nothing? So why make an exception for Kosovo?

I have written this before, but for your info I'll write it up again, the Balkans north of Greece and south of Slavic and Ugric inhabited territories were originally inhabited by three major tribes: Illyrians, Thracians and Dacians.

Dacians lived in regions mostly around Romania and Moldova (they were latinized during the times of the Roman and later Byzantine Empires and hence became known as the Vlachs)

Thracians (lived mostly around Bulgaria, Greece and European Turkey, all were assimilated by Greeks, Bulgars and later Turkic tribes)

Illyrians lived around the central and western Balkans (in other words, former Yugoslavia). These were also subject to Roman and Byzantine influence, but it was only with the Slavic invasions of the 6th Century that parts of these Illyrian populations were subject to Slavic assimilation and Slavicization. The Illyrian populations that escaped Slavicization were located mostly in present day Albania, due to the mountains. The proof of this is in the genetics:

Slavic populations of Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia, Russia, Ukraine and Belarus display strong traces of Haplotype R1A.

Balkan populations (and I mean all of them north of Greece) display strong traces of Haplotype I.

There you have it, history and genetics prove what I am saying.

So Serbian and Albanian chauvinists take note: you are both close genetically, you just have different cultures due to foreign influence.

Any Serbs claiming they are pure Slavs or Albanians claiming pure Illyrian descent are either chauvinist, nationalist or both. Stop being brainwashed and try to read a book.