Peter China is not and cannot be member of EU it is in Asia!!! I guess you meant UN right? Bottom line Kosova can be independent with or without UN completely just it need to be accepted by the other powers (US, France, UK etc) and it can be part of EU.
There is always alternatives remember Russia was against the bombing at the end NATO intervened without Russian or Chinese blessing (even Chinese embassy “mistakenly” was bombed – so they can get the message). A state can be a member of NATO or EU without being in UN, Either Russia or China has veto on above organizations. Keep in mind US has long term plans in Kosovo and they are investing in building a top-notch military base. So there is no way even remotely that US will leave this region under pro-Russian state (Serbia). It is called Geo-politics and by US confidential planning it was projected Kosova will be an independent state by 2010-2013 so they still have time on their chart. What I mean is even if Albanians and Serbs agree to coexist in same state US will find a way to disrupt that and go ahead with their original planning. As far as success of Kosova government I share skepticism as well because the corruption and the mafia style groups are ruling the region right now. But this is not typical of Kosova because some of the most wanted war criminals are being protected by Serbian authorities and if anyone dare to initiate a democratic process and reconciliation route with others risks his life (Djindjic - the first true reformer of the Balkan – was shot by criminals.
The autonomy question and Milosevic offer I just don’t get it. Kosova had the autonomy, Milosevic didn’t have to offer instead he striped the basic human right to the part of population (schools, police, local government) by force. At the end I have to admit that the true Serbian citizens suffered a lot as well but their pain was much less then the others who are still looking for the remains of their loved ones.
Ohh the numbers of victims let’s say there were none so we don’t argue about that, let’s forget about them for a second (no disrespect to victims no matter who they are).
Now does everyone agree that the Serbian forces wanted to force out the entire Albanian population from Kosova. Is that enough argument not to trust Serbian Government?
If it is true that Albanians have 10 kids each family then it is in their interest to remain part of Serbia because in one or two generations they will surpass Serbian population and reach Belgrade. But everyone knows this is not true and even though the Albanian birth rate is higher that the some of the other parts of Balkans it is continuously dropping and it is far form 10.
Can I pass my debt to the Kosova government too?
azir - 12 000? The US say 10 000 while only 3 000 corpses have been exhumed. Why is there such discrepancy between the numbers? I suppose it's like that everywhere, Poles say they killed maximum 2 000 while the Germans claimed 58 000 at Bromberg Bloody Sunday in 1939, or the Turks claiming that 300 000 Armenians died during an uprising and the Armenians claiming 1 500 000 killed in genocide. You can never trust the media...
If Kosova owed any debt to anyone it must be proven that that money was indeed spent directly in Kosova.Now what about what is owed to Kosova.For instence over 12,000 innocent Kosovars were murdered , tens of thousand homes were destroyed,thousands raped and over 1 milion illegely deported against international law, where is their compensation. The international community needs to support Kosova's rightfull, legal and justifiable claim for financial restitution as a small price to pay for all that they had to suffer under the serb's brotherhood and unity program.
1) Israel was recognized by all five members of the UNSC. The rest of the countries don't matter. Kosovo cannot be put in this category because two UNSC members will not recognize an independent Kosovo without mutual agreement between Belgrade and Pristina.
2) People's Republic of China is a part of the EU, thanks to their veto, the Republic of China (Taiwan) is not a part of the UN. Not that it has harmed Taiwan in the least, but their whole economy is based around services and industry, while Kosovo's is based around agriculture. Huge difference, and it shows in the figures.
I knew this mosque in Gjakova, it is called Xhamija e Adumit (Mosque of Adumi)--it was built 400 or 500 years ago, the town started because of that mosque. The Serbs burnt it to the ground.
Serbia hasn't payed a cent for any damage. I am not saying damaging churches is excusable either. But at least our government has payed money to fix/repair those churches whereas Serbia has done nothing.
Funky dude, they did not change their minds when milosevic came to power. They started revolting right after Tito died. This started in 1981, when even slovenian troops had to be sent down there to stop the secession. But back then there was something called bratstvo i jedinstvo. Furthermore, most albanians did not revolt Milosevic came to power. Their leader was Rugova, and he supported non-violent means of breaking off. In fact, only a fraction of the albanians supported the KLA. You claim that the reduction in serbian numbers was just out of economic reasons. That is not true, for our population in kosmet did increase until the 1980s, but it did not increase as the albanian one did because the albanians had so many more kids, and some migration. Things went really bad in the 1980s, and then some serbs did leave, but that is a minor thing by then, considering how much the albanians had expanded, and how they continually abused their power in the region of Kosmet. You said that the Serbs never offered autonomy. That is wrong. Milosevic offered huge autonomy, in 1999. NATO gave us an ultimatum at rambuilliet, designed to make us say no, because they offered us to be a colony. What the serbs offered instead was autonomy to Kosmet, not independence, and an international force, not just the west, to monitor the situation. Lastly, don't be too sure on Serbia joining the EU. It is a possibility, but we have other cards too, like joining Russia and Venezuela.
Kosova/o should only take 10% of the $800.
Even that should be tied up against the war reparations.
Most of the debt by former Yugoslavia was never distributed evenly among the Republics and the Provinces.
If Serbian Government can prove that any of that money went to Kosova/o thats fine but I doubt it.
Princip
You are trying to argue the point from your stand point of view that we all know is flawed with lies and propaganda, you should just quit while you're ahead.
You have no credibility whatsoever.
I, by the way left Yugoslavia, for better economic reasons. Living under the miloshevic regime did not suit me well at all.
No one wants Serbia out of UN and of course in the future Serbia will be part of EU.
As far as being or not being recognized by UN it is a little too early to talk about the consequences. But I will tell you Kosova will not be the first nor the last country not accepted by all the member of UN. Someone mentioned Taiwan. Taiwan is administered by China. Now did you know that even China itself it is not recognized by all the UN members. To properly explain that the state can exist and be very powerful without having the blessing of all the UN members take a look at Israel.
So this UN veto issue and handful nations not accepting Kosova as a state is a non-issue at all.
Now if serbs government was so generous and gave Kosova electricity, schools, universities, infrastructures and so on why suddenly they changed their minds when Milsoevic came to power.
The myth of serbs leaving Kosova is purely economical and not national if you look at the percentages much more Albanians emigrated from Kosova than serb. Who wants to live in such situation where the economy was and is very low the situation very tense. Serbian authority was begged for years to give the autonomy to Kosova. Now it is too late and no one can trust them. Most of the world agrees for independence they just don’t want to appear rude to China and Russia and they gave 120 extra days.
As I said in my previous comment it is time to turn the page and live as two neighboring nations with cordial relationship.
"Who seriously believes that Albanians will pay for the bullets and gas and tanks and uniforms that serbian jna used to murder Albanians, transport their bodies to Serbia and dump their bodies into belgrade rivers?"
Or perhaps they were referring to the money Yugoslavia spent to try and create industry out of the financial sinkhole called Kosovo (and Macedonia), for over 50 years. Unfortunately it did not work and if that money belonged to anyone it would be the Croatians and Slovenians who had their rich economies plundered by a nationalist Serbian dominated Yugoslavia, all to try and create a piece of gold out of a rock.
It frustrates me to see these pro albanian comments here, saying where did kosmet get this debt... for heavens sake, open your eyes albanians, pristina did not have one paved street in 1945, and it was serbian money that helped build everything that Kosmet has ever had. From universities to the buildings, to pretty much everything. KS, a very proud albanian it seems like, says that serbs owe albanians money for electricity - why does he not even bother to mention that the albanians have that electricity because serbs financed it, and it is rightfully serbian, not albanian! KS, what makes you bring up mosques? Lets bring up the churchs maybe?
The pro-albanians immediately talk of damages that they got from the serbs. They need to understand that most of those damages are because of the KLA, and that almost all of those damages happened after the bombing, as a logical consequence of the bombing. The state department predicted that bombing will only make things worse.
If albanians do not want to pay anything, then simply said, all that which was invested should be demolished. So in other words they won't have schools, hospitals, higher education, or many necessities to survival in this modern era, because it was all financed by serbian money. Heck, albanians in albania envied kosmet under serbian occupation, because life was better there than in Albania.
Joe, many are not immigrants, they were only 65% of the population in the 60s, and by 1991 it was almost 85%. That's a huge increase, and it is thanks to them having 10 kids each. These misfortunate kids grow up in poverty and naturally feel that they have been harmed by the serbs, when it is not the serbian problem that these people have so many kids and that there simply isn't enough money to go around. Then some, by no means all, join the KLA to try to break off, for this continual poverty is a vicous cycle that just creates continual problem. The albanians are the problem here, they need to change, not the serbs. Vojvodina is a fine example of how ethnicities enjoy harmony, and I think it is time that the albanians start enjoying harmony and a multiethnic society too.
Kosovo will never join the UN because two UNSC countries have said they will not support Kosovo independence. Why do you think Taiwan is not in the UN? Thing is, Taiwan can exist on its own, but can Kosovo?
Serbia has every right to join the EU and the EU wants Serbia as a part of it. On the other hand, Kosovo will not join the EU because five of its twenty seven members (all veto holders, by the way) have also stated that they will not recognize an independent Kosovo, let alone membership. Let's see how an independent Kosovo will fund its roads, banks, telecommunications, energy needs, social services and other such things alone.
If Serbia is to pay war damages, there might as well be bills ready for all other transgressions made by other European nations in the past. Why should Serbia have to pay for damages authorized by a dead politician of a country that does not exist anymore (Yugoslavia)? An independent Kosovo should definitely seek to improve relations with Serbia if it ever wishes to join the EU, because they would get into the EU long before Kosovo would, that is for sure!
It's in the past and people should move on. As Europeans, we have all lost some family member in some war somewhere along the way in the past (as a Pole, I can tell you this now).
I can see you are a impressionable teenager, but at least try to sound grown up.
Nothing is more annoying than people of some pseudo-de facto-"independent" state thinking that the world should shun and ignore a real sate that is a part of the UN, IMF and will soon be in the EU.
I would be surprised that any Albanian would consider himself as Serbian citizen.
However technically and I am saying technically they still are.
As a matter of fact most of the Kosova population is not either pro or anti serb. The Kosova serbs are financed directly from Belgrade and live better life than most of Serbian people (no municipality fees, no taxes, getting checks just not to accept Kosovo parliament).Any serb who dare to participate on Kosova processes is alienated as pro Albanian. The subject was the debt right! So let me see Serbia did attack Kosovo, Belgrade is feeding Kosovar serbs like thanksgiving turkeys but yet they want Kosova government to pick up the tab. It is so lovely from them right. What they will demand next the reimbursement of arsenal spent on Srebernica?
It is non-sense and the Serbian nation should turn toward the future and consider other nations as equal partners.
this isn't very much different than the issue of providing federal dollars to support illegal immigrants' medical bills, welfare, etc. in the u.s. why would any society want to repay debts incurred by a population that is comprised largely of illegal immigrants that showed up after tuto laxed the boarders?
Who seriously believes that Albanians will pay for the bullets and gas and tanks and uniforms that serbian jna used to murder Albanians, transport their bodies to Serbia and dump their bodies into belgrade rivers? KS is right, Albanians should make Serbia pay the Albanians for every bullet hole Serbs perpetrated on Albanian property, let alone the massacres, slaughter of civilians, their suffering in losing property and their treks across borders. Then, Serbia should pay all nations who supported the Albanian refugees and punitive charge for their malicious intent to cause death and destruction of the Albanians in Kosova by making Serbia offer the Albanians recognition of their Independence and Sovereignty and be the first nation to suggest Kosova be offered a seat at the UN and all other int'l organizations. And, the premium of EU membership to Serbia will never be signed until Serbia comes through on all points above. :)
UNMIK have kept the receipts of privatization, this should have gone to paying off creditors. Creditors include Serbian companies as well as foreign banks. Of course Serbia should have stopped repaying these loans long ago. UNMIK (or the KTA) have taken control of these companies and municipalities who ran up the debts and so of course they should take over collecting the money to pay off the loans. For years Serbia (misguidedly) thought that stopping to pay would weaken its negotiating position regarding status of KiM.
Kosova did not have financial control when this money was borrowed and should not be responsible for it.
Also this money did not at all benefited Kosova residents. Most of those resources went into the dictatorial regime policy to promote hate. Another point how a region who accounts for large production of valued minerals in former Yugoslavia can be so much in debt. The money mostly was spent on maintaining tight army and police presence by recruiting them from outside of Kosova and offering them great benefits while the inhabitants were fired. So at the end 100% of this money was used for “Greater Serbia” dream and propaganda why now they are whining about it?!!
If they can show any investment or project for the benefit of Kosova without any string attached then I think Kosova government will gladly accept the responsibility. But do not worry there were none.
So whiners stand up and accept your responsibilities.
Kosovo will own up to her obligations- no question about it. That is to say, all the debt that was borrowed in name of Kosovo up to 1989. All the money that was borrowed after this time was Serbia’s to use and it is hers to pay. There is a strong consensus in international circles about the illegitimacy of all decision Serbia made regarding Kosovo from 1989 to 1999.
teni, it was 800 but serbia paid 225 million so now it is only about 500. simple mathematics. and i dont think it was milosevic, although sure blame him for everything, the problems in sudan i think are connected to milosevic. i think its maybe because kosovo is very poor and they need money so they borrowed it, but according to albanians kosovo is like monte carlo.
Come to think of it, many loans were taken in the name of “Investing in the underdeveloped areas of Yugoslavia” (Kosova included). A lot of this money was used to create jobs for Serbs to move to Kosovo from Serbia in the 70’s and 80’s.
Why should people of Kosova pay for this?
Special commissions (consisting of Serb, Kosovar and International experts) should be used to evaluate all the transactions and if full accountability is not provided by Serbia, there is not reason why Kosova residents should take the debts over.
It doesnt mean independence, it means K-Albanians don't pay taxes to Serbia so they should pay their own bills. Its just another step tward wide autonomy. Get used to it!
Yes that is correct Mark so pay your bill to the World Bank, humm let me guess we do not have money we are poor please forgive our debt. Sincerely Agim Ceku. P.S. We have millions of dollars stashed all about Kosovo but we are broke.
Who had ever thought that being burdened with debts could be such good news!
There is something strange going on though: how come that out of 800m 500 something are owned by Kosova? When did Kosova borrow that money? Under Milosevic? Because it certainly wasn't under UNMIK. If Milosevic borrowed money for Kosova during his rule then we owe the Serbs nothing at all. Most of it was spend to oppress the Albanians anyway. It only serves Serbia right to pay for it.
welcome to independent kosova ... this just prooves that serb leadership has realized that they should not pay taxes for a foreign country -:)
good luck to the ones that still hope that serbia and kosova will be one - but the WILL of albanian people is to have nothing to do with Serbia.
Even Montenegro did not want ANYTHING to do with Serbia - why would Albanians after thousands were killed. Montenegro split even though there was no bloodshed ....
Cio Serbia ... live in peace and learn from your mistakes.
Mark,
wishful thinking but read what the Minister said;
“Rather, [it concerns] the healthy principle that the one who collects taxes must also pay the debt, and just as the city of Belgrade has its own debts and is a part of Serbia, so should Kosovo,”
and later;
“Serbia has already paid USD 215mn on behalf of Kosovo-Metohija and we presented what had been agreed at the international negotiations, i.e. once the status is settled, our province should service its own debt burden"
"our province" post status and it is about the $215 million paid since 1999 that "our province" is responsible for given that they should pay given they collected the taxes from "our" citizens to which this debt relates. As Serbia has said self governance will include financial responsibility but that does not mean partition of the state.
welcome to independent kosova ... this just prooves that serb leadership has realized that they should not pay taxes for a foreign country -:)
good luck to the ones that still hope that serbia and kosova will be one - but the WILL of albanian people is to have nothing to do with Serbia.
Even Montenegro did not want ANYTHING to do with Serbia - why would Albanians after thousands were killed. Montenegro split even though there was no bloodshed ....
Cio Serbia ... live in peace and learn from your mistakes.
Mark,
wishful thinking but read what the Minister said;
“Rather, [it concerns] the healthy principle that the one who collects taxes must also pay the debt, and just as the city of Belgrade has its own debts and is a part of Serbia, so should Kosovo,”
and later;
“Serbia has already paid USD 215mn on behalf of Kosovo-Metohija and we presented what had been agreed at the international negotiations, i.e. once the status is settled, our province should service its own debt burden"
"our province" post status and it is about the $215 million paid since 1999 that "our province" is responsible for given that they should pay given they collected the taxes from "our" citizens to which this debt relates. As Serbia has said self governance will include financial responsibility but that does not mean partition of the state.
It doesnt mean independence, it means K-Albanians don't pay taxes to Serbia so they should pay their own bills. Its just another step tward wide autonomy. Get used to it!
Who had ever thought that being burdened with debts could be such good news!
There is something strange going on though: how come that out of 800m 500 something are owned by Kosova? When did Kosova borrow that money? Under Milosevic? Because it certainly wasn't under UNMIK. If Milosevic borrowed money for Kosova during his rule then we owe the Serbs nothing at all. Most of it was spend to oppress the Albanians anyway. It only serves Serbia right to pay for it.
Come to think of it, many loans were taken in the name of “Investing in the underdeveloped areas of Yugoslavia” (Kosova included). A lot of this money was used to create jobs for Serbs to move to Kosovo from Serbia in the 70’s and 80’s.
Why should people of Kosova pay for this?
Special commissions (consisting of Serb, Kosovar and International experts) should be used to evaluate all the transactions and if full accountability is not provided by Serbia, there is not reason why Kosova residents should take the debts over.
UNMIK have kept the receipts of privatization, this should have gone to paying off creditors. Creditors include Serbian companies as well as foreign banks. Of course Serbia should have stopped repaying these loans long ago. UNMIK (or the KTA) have taken control of these companies and municipalities who ran up the debts and so of course they should take over collecting the money to pay off the loans. For years Serbia (misguidedly) thought that stopping to pay would weaken its negotiating position regarding status of KiM.
It frustrates me to see these pro albanian comments here, saying where did kosmet get this debt... for heavens sake, open your eyes albanians, pristina did not have one paved street in 1945, and it was serbian money that helped build everything that Kosmet has ever had. From universities to the buildings, to pretty much everything. KS, a very proud albanian it seems like, says that serbs owe albanians money for electricity - why does he not even bother to mention that the albanians have that electricity because serbs financed it, and it is rightfully serbian, not albanian! KS, what makes you bring up mosques? Lets bring up the churchs maybe?
The pro-albanians immediately talk of damages that they got from the serbs. They need to understand that most of those damages are because of the KLA, and that almost all of those damages happened after the bombing, as a logical consequence of the bombing. The state department predicted that bombing will only make things worse.
If albanians do not want to pay anything, then simply said, all that which was invested should be demolished. So in other words they won't have schools, hospitals, higher education, or many necessities to survival in this modern era, because it was all financed by serbian money. Heck, albanians in albania envied kosmet under serbian occupation, because life was better there than in Albania.
Joe, many are not immigrants, they were only 65% of the population in the 60s, and by 1991 it was almost 85%. That's a huge increase, and it is thanks to them having 10 kids each. These misfortunate kids grow up in poverty and naturally feel that they have been harmed by the serbs, when it is not the serbian problem that these people have so many kids and that there simply isn't enough money to go around. Then some, by no means all, join the KLA to try to break off, for this continual poverty is a vicous cycle that just creates continual problem. The albanians are the problem here, they need to change, not the serbs. Vojvodina is a fine example of how ethnicities enjoy harmony, and I think it is time that the albanians start enjoying harmony and a multiethnic society too.
Yes that is correct Mark so pay your bill to the World Bank, humm let me guess we do not have money we are poor please forgive our debt. Sincerely Agim Ceku. P.S. We have millions of dollars stashed all about Kosovo but we are broke.
Kosova did not have financial control when this money was borrowed and should not be responsible for it.
Also this money did not at all benefited Kosova residents. Most of those resources went into the dictatorial regime policy to promote hate. Another point how a region who accounts for large production of valued minerals in former Yugoslavia can be so much in debt. The money mostly was spent on maintaining tight army and police presence by recruiting them from outside of Kosova and offering them great benefits while the inhabitants were fired. So at the end 100% of this money was used for “Greater Serbia” dream and propaganda why now they are whining about it?!!
If they can show any investment or project for the benefit of Kosova without any string attached then I think Kosova government will gladly accept the responsibility. But do not worry there were none.
So whiners stand up and accept your responsibilities.
Who seriously believes that Albanians will pay for the bullets and gas and tanks and uniforms that serbian jna used to murder Albanians, transport their bodies to Serbia and dump their bodies into belgrade rivers? KS is right, Albanians should make Serbia pay the Albanians for every bullet hole Serbs perpetrated on Albanian property, let alone the massacres, slaughter of civilians, their suffering in losing property and their treks across borders. Then, Serbia should pay all nations who supported the Albanian refugees and punitive charge for their malicious intent to cause death and destruction of the Albanians in Kosova by making Serbia offer the Albanians recognition of their Independence and Sovereignty and be the first nation to suggest Kosova be offered a seat at the UN and all other int'l organizations. And, the premium of EU membership to Serbia will never be signed until Serbia comes through on all points above. :)
teni, it was 800 but serbia paid 225 million so now it is only about 500. simple mathematics. and i dont think it was milosevic, although sure blame him for everything, the problems in sudan i think are connected to milosevic. i think its maybe because kosovo is very poor and they need money so they borrowed it, but according to albanians kosovo is like monte carlo.
Kosovo will own up to her obligations- no question about it. That is to say, all the debt that was borrowed in name of Kosovo up to 1989. All the money that was borrowed after this time was Serbia’s to use and it is hers to pay. There is a strong consensus in international circles about the illegitimacy of all decision Serbia made regarding Kosovo from 1989 to 1999.
Kosovo will never join the UN because two UNSC countries have said they will not support Kosovo independence. Why do you think Taiwan is not in the UN? Thing is, Taiwan can exist on its own, but can Kosovo?
Serbia has every right to join the EU and the EU wants Serbia as a part of it. On the other hand, Kosovo will not join the EU because five of its twenty seven members (all veto holders, by the way) have also stated that they will not recognize an independent Kosovo, let alone membership. Let's see how an independent Kosovo will fund its roads, banks, telecommunications, energy needs, social services and other such things alone.
If Serbia is to pay war damages, there might as well be bills ready for all other transgressions made by other European nations in the past. Why should Serbia have to pay for damages authorized by a dead politician of a country that does not exist anymore (Yugoslavia)? An independent Kosovo should definitely seek to improve relations with Serbia if it ever wishes to join the EU, because they would get into the EU long before Kosovo would, that is for sure!
It's in the past and people should move on. As Europeans, we have all lost some family member in some war somewhere along the way in the past (as a Pole, I can tell you this now).
I can see you are a impressionable teenager, but at least try to sound grown up.
Nothing is more annoying than people of some pseudo-de facto-"independent" state thinking that the world should shun and ignore a real sate that is a part of the UN, IMF and will soon be in the EU.
this isn't very much different than the issue of providing federal dollars to support illegal immigrants' medical bills, welfare, etc. in the u.s. why would any society want to repay debts incurred by a population that is comprised largely of illegal immigrants that showed up after tuto laxed the boarders?
"Who seriously believes that Albanians will pay for the bullets and gas and tanks and uniforms that serbian jna used to murder Albanians, transport their bodies to Serbia and dump their bodies into belgrade rivers?"
Or perhaps they were referring to the money Yugoslavia spent to try and create industry out of the financial sinkhole called Kosovo (and Macedonia), for over 50 years. Unfortunately it did not work and if that money belonged to anyone it would be the Croatians and Slovenians who had their rich economies plundered by a nationalist Serbian dominated Yugoslavia, all to try and create a piece of gold out of a rock.
No one wants Serbia out of UN and of course in the future Serbia will be part of EU.
As far as being or not being recognized by UN it is a little too early to talk about the consequences. But I will tell you Kosova will not be the first nor the last country not accepted by all the member of UN. Someone mentioned Taiwan. Taiwan is administered by China. Now did you know that even China itself it is not recognized by all the UN members. To properly explain that the state can exist and be very powerful without having the blessing of all the UN members take a look at Israel.
So this UN veto issue and handful nations not accepting Kosova as a state is a non-issue at all.
Now if serbs government was so generous and gave Kosova electricity, schools, universities, infrastructures and so on why suddenly they changed their minds when Milsoevic came to power.
The myth of serbs leaving Kosova is purely economical and not national if you look at the percentages much more Albanians emigrated from Kosova than serb. Who wants to live in such situation where the economy was and is very low the situation very tense. Serbian authority was begged for years to give the autonomy to Kosova. Now it is too late and no one can trust them. Most of the world agrees for independence they just don’t want to appear rude to China and Russia and they gave 120 extra days.
As I said in my previous comment it is time to turn the page and live as two neighboring nations with cordial relationship.
I would be surprised that any Albanian would consider himself as Serbian citizen.
However technically and I am saying technically they still are.
As a matter of fact most of the Kosova population is not either pro or anti serb. The Kosova serbs are financed directly from Belgrade and live better life than most of Serbian people (no municipality fees, no taxes, getting checks just not to accept Kosovo parliament).Any serb who dare to participate on Kosova processes is alienated as pro Albanian. The subject was the debt right! So let me see Serbia did attack Kosovo, Belgrade is feeding Kosovar serbs like thanksgiving turkeys but yet they want Kosova government to pick up the tab. It is so lovely from them right. What they will demand next the reimbursement of arsenal spent on Srebernica?
It is non-sense and the Serbian nation should turn toward the future and consider other nations as equal partners.
azir - 12 000? The US say 10 000 while only 3 000 corpses have been exhumed. Why is there such discrepancy between the numbers? I suppose it's like that everywhere, Poles say they killed maximum 2 000 while the Germans claimed 58 000 at Bromberg Bloody Sunday in 1939, or the Turks claiming that 300 000 Armenians died during an uprising and the Armenians claiming 1 500 000 killed in genocide. You can never trust the media...
Peter China is not and cannot be member of EU it is in Asia!!! I guess you meant UN right? Bottom line Kosova can be independent with or without UN completely just it need to be accepted by the other powers (US, France, UK etc) and it can be part of EU.
There is always alternatives remember Russia was against the bombing at the end NATO intervened without Russian or Chinese blessing (even Chinese embassy “mistakenly” was bombed – so they can get the message). A state can be a member of NATO or EU without being in UN, Either Russia or China has veto on above organizations. Keep in mind US has long term plans in Kosovo and they are investing in building a top-notch military base. So there is no way even remotely that US will leave this region under pro-Russian state (Serbia). It is called Geo-politics and by US confidential planning it was projected Kosova will be an independent state by 2010-2013 so they still have time on their chart. What I mean is even if Albanians and Serbs agree to coexist in same state US will find a way to disrupt that and go ahead with their original planning. As far as success of Kosova government I share skepticism as well because the corruption and the mafia style groups are ruling the region right now. But this is not typical of Kosova because some of the most wanted war criminals are being protected by Serbian authorities and if anyone dare to initiate a democratic process and reconciliation route with others risks his life (Djindjic - the first true reformer of the Balkan – was shot by criminals.
The autonomy question and Milosevic offer I just don’t get it. Kosova had the autonomy, Milosevic didn’t have to offer instead he striped the basic human right to the part of population (schools, police, local government) by force. At the end I have to admit that the true Serbian citizens suffered a lot as well but their pain was much less then the others who are still looking for the remains of their loved ones.
Ohh the numbers of victims let’s say there were none so we don’t argue about that, let’s forget about them for a second (no disrespect to victims no matter who they are).
Now does everyone agree that the Serbian forces wanted to force out the entire Albanian population from Kosova. Is that enough argument not to trust Serbian Government?
If it is true that Albanians have 10 kids each family then it is in their interest to remain part of Serbia because in one or two generations they will surpass Serbian population and reach Belgrade. But everyone knows this is not true and even though the Albanian birth rate is higher that the some of the other parts of Balkans it is continuously dropping and it is far form 10.
Can I pass my debt to the Kosova government too?
Kosova/o should only take 10% of the $800.
Even that should be tied up against the war reparations.
Most of the debt by former Yugoslavia was never distributed evenly among the Republics and the Provinces.
If Serbian Government can prove that any of that money went to Kosova/o thats fine but I doubt it.
Princip
You are trying to argue the point from your stand point of view that we all know is flawed with lies and propaganda, you should just quit while you're ahead.
You have no credibility whatsoever.
I, by the way left Yugoslavia, for better economic reasons. Living under the miloshevic regime did not suit me well at all.
Funky dude, they did not change their minds when milosevic came to power. They started revolting right after Tito died. This started in 1981, when even slovenian troops had to be sent down there to stop the secession. But back then there was something called bratstvo i jedinstvo. Furthermore, most albanians did not revolt Milosevic came to power. Their leader was Rugova, and he supported non-violent means of breaking off. In fact, only a fraction of the albanians supported the KLA. You claim that the reduction in serbian numbers was just out of economic reasons. That is not true, for our population in kosmet did increase until the 1980s, but it did not increase as the albanian one did because the albanians had so many more kids, and some migration. Things went really bad in the 1980s, and then some serbs did leave, but that is a minor thing by then, considering how much the albanians had expanded, and how they continually abused their power in the region of Kosmet. You said that the Serbs never offered autonomy. That is wrong. Milosevic offered huge autonomy, in 1999. NATO gave us an ultimatum at rambuilliet, designed to make us say no, because they offered us to be a colony. What the serbs offered instead was autonomy to Kosmet, not independence, and an international force, not just the west, to monitor the situation. Lastly, don't be too sure on Serbia joining the EU. It is a possibility, but we have other cards too, like joining Russia and Venezuela.
I knew this mosque in Gjakova, it is called Xhamija e Adumit (Mosque of Adumi)--it was built 400 or 500 years ago, the town started because of that mosque. The Serbs burnt it to the ground.
Serbia hasn't payed a cent for any damage. I am not saying damaging churches is excusable either. But at least our government has payed money to fix/repair those churches whereas Serbia has done nothing.
1) Israel was recognized by all five members of the UNSC. The rest of the countries don't matter. Kosovo cannot be put in this category because two UNSC members will not recognize an independent Kosovo without mutual agreement between Belgrade and Pristina.
2) People's Republic of China is a part of the EU, thanks to their veto, the Republic of China (Taiwan) is not a part of the UN. Not that it has harmed Taiwan in the least, but their whole economy is based around services and industry, while Kosovo's is based around agriculture. Huge difference, and it shows in the figures.
If Kosova owed any debt to anyone it must be proven that that money was indeed spent directly in Kosova.Now what about what is owed to Kosova.For instence over 12,000 innocent Kosovars were murdered , tens of thousand homes were destroyed,thousands raped and over 1 milion illegely deported against international law, where is their compensation. The international community needs to support Kosova's rightfull, legal and justifiable claim for financial restitution as a small price to pay for all that they had to suffer under the serb's brotherhood and unity program.
welcome to independent kosova ... this just prooves that serb leadership has realized that they should not pay taxes for a foreign country -:)
good luck to the ones that still hope that serbia and kosova will be one - but the WILL of albanian people is to have nothing to do with Serbia.
Even Montenegro did not want ANYTHING to do with Serbia - why would Albanians after thousands were killed. Montenegro split even though there was no bloodshed ....
Cio Serbia ... live in peace and learn from your mistakes.
Who seriously believes that Albanians will pay for the bullets and gas and tanks and uniforms that serbian jna used to murder Albanians, transport their bodies to Serbia and dump their bodies into belgrade rivers? KS is right, Albanians should make Serbia pay the Albanians for every bullet hole Serbs perpetrated on Albanian property, let alone the massacres, slaughter of civilians, their suffering in losing property and their treks across borders. Then, Serbia should pay all nations who supported the Albanian refugees and punitive charge for their malicious intent to cause death and destruction of the Albanians in Kosova by making Serbia offer the Albanians recognition of their Independence and Sovereignty and be the first nation to suggest Kosova be offered a seat at the UN and all other int'l organizations. And, the premium of EU membership to Serbia will never be signed until Serbia comes through on all points above. :)
Who had ever thought that being burdened with debts could be such good news!
There is something strange going on though: how come that out of 800m 500 something are owned by Kosova? When did Kosova borrow that money? Under Milosevic? Because it certainly wasn't under UNMIK. If Milosevic borrowed money for Kosova during his rule then we owe the Serbs nothing at all. Most of it was spend to oppress the Albanians anyway. It only serves Serbia right to pay for it.
Come to think of it, many loans were taken in the name of “Investing in the underdeveloped areas of Yugoslavia” (Kosova included). A lot of this money was used to create jobs for Serbs to move to Kosovo from Serbia in the 70’s and 80’s.
Why should people of Kosova pay for this?
Special commissions (consisting of Serb, Kosovar and International experts) should be used to evaluate all the transactions and if full accountability is not provided by Serbia, there is not reason why Kosova residents should take the debts over.
Kosova did not have financial control when this money was borrowed and should not be responsible for it.
Also this money did not at all benefited Kosova residents. Most of those resources went into the dictatorial regime policy to promote hate. Another point how a region who accounts for large production of valued minerals in former Yugoslavia can be so much in debt. The money mostly was spent on maintaining tight army and police presence by recruiting them from outside of Kosova and offering them great benefits while the inhabitants were fired. So at the end 100% of this money was used for “Greater Serbia” dream and propaganda why now they are whining about it?!!
If they can show any investment or project for the benefit of Kosova without any string attached then I think Kosova government will gladly accept the responsibility. But do not worry there were none.
So whiners stand up and accept your responsibilities.
I would be surprised that any Albanian would consider himself as Serbian citizen.
However technically and I am saying technically they still are.
As a matter of fact most of the Kosova population is not either pro or anti serb. The Kosova serbs are financed directly from Belgrade and live better life than most of Serbian people (no municipality fees, no taxes, getting checks just not to accept Kosovo parliament).Any serb who dare to participate on Kosova processes is alienated as pro Albanian. The subject was the debt right! So let me see Serbia did attack Kosovo, Belgrade is feeding Kosovar serbs like thanksgiving turkeys but yet they want Kosova government to pick up the tab. It is so lovely from them right. What they will demand next the reimbursement of arsenal spent on Srebernica?
It is non-sense and the Serbian nation should turn toward the future and consider other nations as equal partners.
No one wants Serbia out of UN and of course in the future Serbia will be part of EU.
As far as being or not being recognized by UN it is a little too early to talk about the consequences. But I will tell you Kosova will not be the first nor the last country not accepted by all the member of UN. Someone mentioned Taiwan. Taiwan is administered by China. Now did you know that even China itself it is not recognized by all the UN members. To properly explain that the state can exist and be very powerful without having the blessing of all the UN members take a look at Israel.
So this UN veto issue and handful nations not accepting Kosova as a state is a non-issue at all.
Now if serbs government was so generous and gave Kosova electricity, schools, universities, infrastructures and so on why suddenly they changed their minds when Milsoevic came to power.
The myth of serbs leaving Kosova is purely economical and not national if you look at the percentages much more Albanians emigrated from Kosova than serb. Who wants to live in such situation where the economy was and is very low the situation very tense. Serbian authority was begged for years to give the autonomy to Kosova. Now it is too late and no one can trust them. Most of the world agrees for independence they just don’t want to appear rude to China and Russia and they gave 120 extra days.
As I said in my previous comment it is time to turn the page and live as two neighboring nations with cordial relationship.
Mark,
wishful thinking but read what the Minister said;
“Rather, [it concerns] the healthy principle that the one who collects taxes must also pay the debt, and just as the city of Belgrade has its own debts and is a part of Serbia, so should Kosovo,”
and later;
“Serbia has already paid USD 215mn on behalf of Kosovo-Metohija and we presented what had been agreed at the international negotiations, i.e. once the status is settled, our province should service its own debt burden"
"our province" post status and it is about the $215 million paid since 1999 that "our province" is responsible for given that they should pay given they collected the taxes from "our" citizens to which this debt relates. As Serbia has said self governance will include financial responsibility but that does not mean partition of the state.
It doesnt mean independence, it means K-Albanians don't pay taxes to Serbia so they should pay their own bills. Its just another step tward wide autonomy. Get used to it!
Kosovo will own up to her obligations- no question about it. That is to say, all the debt that was borrowed in name of Kosovo up to 1989. All the money that was borrowed after this time was Serbia’s to use and it is hers to pay. There is a strong consensus in international circles about the illegitimacy of all decision Serbia made regarding Kosovo from 1989 to 1999.
Yes that is correct Mark so pay your bill to the World Bank, humm let me guess we do not have money we are poor please forgive our debt. Sincerely Agim Ceku. P.S. We have millions of dollars stashed all about Kosovo but we are broke.
teni, it was 800 but serbia paid 225 million so now it is only about 500. simple mathematics. and i dont think it was milosevic, although sure blame him for everything, the problems in sudan i think are connected to milosevic. i think its maybe because kosovo is very poor and they need money so they borrowed it, but according to albanians kosovo is like monte carlo.
Kosovo will never join the UN because two UNSC countries have said they will not support Kosovo independence. Why do you think Taiwan is not in the UN? Thing is, Taiwan can exist on its own, but can Kosovo?
Serbia has every right to join the EU and the EU wants Serbia as a part of it. On the other hand, Kosovo will not join the EU because five of its twenty seven members (all veto holders, by the way) have also stated that they will not recognize an independent Kosovo, let alone membership. Let's see how an independent Kosovo will fund its roads, banks, telecommunications, energy needs, social services and other such things alone.
If Serbia is to pay war damages, there might as well be bills ready for all other transgressions made by other European nations in the past. Why should Serbia have to pay for damages authorized by a dead politician of a country that does not exist anymore (Yugoslavia)? An independent Kosovo should definitely seek to improve relations with Serbia if it ever wishes to join the EU, because they would get into the EU long before Kosovo would, that is for sure!
It's in the past and people should move on. As Europeans, we have all lost some family member in some war somewhere along the way in the past (as a Pole, I can tell you this now).
I can see you are a impressionable teenager, but at least try to sound grown up.
Nothing is more annoying than people of some pseudo-de facto-"independent" state thinking that the world should shun and ignore a real sate that is a part of the UN, IMF and will soon be in the EU.
It frustrates me to see these pro albanian comments here, saying where did kosmet get this debt... for heavens sake, open your eyes albanians, pristina did not have one paved street in 1945, and it was serbian money that helped build everything that Kosmet has ever had. From universities to the buildings, to pretty much everything. KS, a very proud albanian it seems like, says that serbs owe albanians money for electricity - why does he not even bother to mention that the albanians have that electricity because serbs financed it, and it is rightfully serbian, not albanian! KS, what makes you bring up mosques? Lets bring up the churchs maybe?
The pro-albanians immediately talk of damages that they got from the serbs. They need to understand that most of those damages are because of the KLA, and that almost all of those damages happened after the bombing, as a logical consequence of the bombing. The state department predicted that bombing will only make things worse.
If albanians do not want to pay anything, then simply said, all that which was invested should be demolished. So in other words they won't have schools, hospitals, higher education, or many necessities to survival in this modern era, because it was all financed by serbian money. Heck, albanians in albania envied kosmet under serbian occupation, because life was better there than in Albania.
Joe, many are not immigrants, they were only 65% of the population in the 60s, and by 1991 it was almost 85%. That's a huge increase, and it is thanks to them having 10 kids each. These misfortunate kids grow up in poverty and naturally feel that they have been harmed by the serbs, when it is not the serbian problem that these people have so many kids and that there simply isn't enough money to go around. Then some, by no means all, join the KLA to try to break off, for this continual poverty is a vicous cycle that just creates continual problem. The albanians are the problem here, they need to change, not the serbs. Vojvodina is a fine example of how ethnicities enjoy harmony, and I think it is time that the albanians start enjoying harmony and a multiethnic society too.
"Who seriously believes that Albanians will pay for the bullets and gas and tanks and uniforms that serbian jna used to murder Albanians, transport their bodies to Serbia and dump their bodies into belgrade rivers?"
Or perhaps they were referring to the money Yugoslavia spent to try and create industry out of the financial sinkhole called Kosovo (and Macedonia), for over 50 years. Unfortunately it did not work and if that money belonged to anyone it would be the Croatians and Slovenians who had their rich economies plundered by a nationalist Serbian dominated Yugoslavia, all to try and create a piece of gold out of a rock.
UNMIK have kept the receipts of privatization, this should have gone to paying off creditors. Creditors include Serbian companies as well as foreign banks. Of course Serbia should have stopped repaying these loans long ago. UNMIK (or the KTA) have taken control of these companies and municipalities who ran up the debts and so of course they should take over collecting the money to pay off the loans. For years Serbia (misguidedly) thought that stopping to pay would weaken its negotiating position regarding status of KiM.
this isn't very much different than the issue of providing federal dollars to support illegal immigrants' medical bills, welfare, etc. in the u.s. why would any society want to repay debts incurred by a population that is comprised largely of illegal immigrants that showed up after tuto laxed the boarders?
Kosova/o should only take 10% of the $800.
Even that should be tied up against the war reparations.
Most of the debt by former Yugoslavia was never distributed evenly among the Republics and the Provinces.
If Serbian Government can prove that any of that money went to Kosova/o thats fine but I doubt it.
Princip
You are trying to argue the point from your stand point of view that we all know is flawed with lies and propaganda, you should just quit while you're ahead.
You have no credibility whatsoever.
I, by the way left Yugoslavia, for better economic reasons. Living under the miloshevic regime did not suit me well at all.
Funky dude, they did not change their minds when milosevic came to power. They started revolting right after Tito died. This started in 1981, when even slovenian troops had to be sent down there to stop the secession. But back then there was something called bratstvo i jedinstvo. Furthermore, most albanians did not revolt Milosevic came to power. Their leader was Rugova, and he supported non-violent means of breaking off. In fact, only a fraction of the albanians supported the KLA. You claim that the reduction in serbian numbers was just out of economic reasons. That is not true, for our population in kosmet did increase until the 1980s, but it did not increase as the albanian one did because the albanians had so many more kids, and some migration. Things went really bad in the 1980s, and then some serbs did leave, but that is a minor thing by then, considering how much the albanians had expanded, and how they continually abused their power in the region of Kosmet. You said that the Serbs never offered autonomy. That is wrong. Milosevic offered huge autonomy, in 1999. NATO gave us an ultimatum at rambuilliet, designed to make us say no, because they offered us to be a colony. What the serbs offered instead was autonomy to Kosmet, not independence, and an international force, not just the west, to monitor the situation. Lastly, don't be too sure on Serbia joining the EU. It is a possibility, but we have other cards too, like joining Russia and Venezuela.
I knew this mosque in Gjakova, it is called Xhamija e Adumit (Mosque of Adumi)--it was built 400 or 500 years ago, the town started because of that mosque. The Serbs burnt it to the ground.
Serbia hasn't payed a cent for any damage. I am not saying damaging churches is excusable either. But at least our government has payed money to fix/repair those churches whereas Serbia has done nothing.
1) Israel was recognized by all five members of the UNSC. The rest of the countries don't matter. Kosovo cannot be put in this category because two UNSC members will not recognize an independent Kosovo without mutual agreement between Belgrade and Pristina.
2) People's Republic of China is a part of the EU, thanks to their veto, the Republic of China (Taiwan) is not a part of the UN. Not that it has harmed Taiwan in the least, but their whole economy is based around services and industry, while Kosovo's is based around agriculture. Huge difference, and it shows in the figures.
If Kosova owed any debt to anyone it must be proven that that money was indeed spent directly in Kosova.Now what about what is owed to Kosova.For instence over 12,000 innocent Kosovars were murdered , tens of thousand homes were destroyed,thousands raped and over 1 milion illegely deported against international law, where is their compensation. The international community needs to support Kosova's rightfull, legal and justifiable claim for financial restitution as a small price to pay for all that they had to suffer under the serb's brotherhood and unity program.
azir - 12 000? The US say 10 000 while only 3 000 corpses have been exhumed. Why is there such discrepancy between the numbers? I suppose it's like that everywhere, Poles say they killed maximum 2 000 while the Germans claimed 58 000 at Bromberg Bloody Sunday in 1939, or the Turks claiming that 300 000 Armenians died during an uprising and the Armenians claiming 1 500 000 killed in genocide. You can never trust the media...
Peter China is not and cannot be member of EU it is in Asia!!! I guess you meant UN right? Bottom line Kosova can be independent with or without UN completely just it need to be accepted by the other powers (US, France, UK etc) and it can be part of EU.
There is always alternatives remember Russia was against the bombing at the end NATO intervened without Russian or Chinese blessing (even Chinese embassy “mistakenly” was bombed – so they can get the message). A state can be a member of NATO or EU without being in UN, Either Russia or China has veto on above organizations. Keep in mind US has long term plans in Kosovo and they are investing in building a top-notch military base. So there is no way even remotely that US will leave this region under pro-Russian state (Serbia). It is called Geo-politics and by US confidential planning it was projected Kosova will be an independent state by 2010-2013 so they still have time on their chart. What I mean is even if Albanians and Serbs agree to coexist in same state US will find a way to disrupt that and go ahead with their original planning. As far as success of Kosova government I share skepticism as well because the corruption and the mafia style groups are ruling the region right now. But this is not typical of Kosova because some of the most wanted war criminals are being protected by Serbian authorities and if anyone dare to initiate a democratic process and reconciliation route with others risks his life (Djindjic - the first true reformer of the Balkan – was shot by criminals.
The autonomy question and Milosevic offer I just don’t get it. Kosova had the autonomy, Milosevic didn’t have to offer instead he striped the basic human right to the part of population (schools, police, local government) by force. At the end I have to admit that the true Serbian citizens suffered a lot as well but their pain was much less then the others who are still looking for the remains of their loved ones.
Ohh the numbers of victims let’s say there were none so we don’t argue about that, let’s forget about them for a second (no disrespect to victims no matter who they are).
Now does everyone agree that the Serbian forces wanted to force out the entire Albanian population from Kosova. Is that enough argument not to trust Serbian Government?
If it is true that Albanians have 10 kids each family then it is in their interest to remain part of Serbia because in one or two generations they will surpass Serbian population and reach Belgrade. But everyone knows this is not true and even though the Albanian birth rate is higher that the some of the other parts of Balkans it is continuously dropping and it is far form 10.
Can I pass my debt to the Kosova government too?
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