Vienna: Cautious optimism from Belgrade team

From my vantage point in the Republic of Ireland I am constantly amazed at the naivety of your K-Albanian contributors and their supporters. Their attitude seems to be: "We have the support of the US and some of the EU, so Serbia, Russia and the rest of the world can go to hell."
Do they not see that the only reason the US and some NATO countries support their position is in order to maintain a significant military presence at the heart of the Balkans. An independent Kosovo supported by the US would effectively make Kosovo the 51st state of the USA. To the Kosovar Albanians, I say: accept the widespread autonomy on offer. You will not get a better deal in terms of your own independent decision making and the overall stability of the region.

Everyone needs to understand that the 14 points are just the starting points for disscusion in this process of "negotiations" they are not an imposition upon either party by the troika but tools in which to find consensus on different aspects of how the Serbian province of Kosovo & Metohija can be administered under autonomy.

What is clear is that the concept of imposing a forced partition of Serbia was blocked in the summer and thus the solution will be a solution based on fundamental principles of the international law i.e. one which will not breach the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Serbia. All other solutions will be unstable and create precedents that will create havoc across Europe and the world and are thus highly irresponsible. That is why come the 11th December there will be no illegal unilateral declarations let alone illegal recognition - of course some will suggest otherwise but will come up with another excuse and another artificial deadline.

Tom O'Donoghue, your advantaged point of view from Ireland (a really nice country, although too rainy) proves to fall into the same naivety you pretend to see on the others. I'm just wondering why did you guys in Eire decided to separate from Great Britain? Don't you think you've missed a good deal separating from a world power? If you want to take advantage from your experience, that's where to catch hold. If you mind Northern Ireland, than correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of Ulster DOES'NT want the union to Ireland, nor any sort of independece from GB, unlike Kosovo, with its 90 p.c. against any form of a common state with Serbia.
Such arguments are all but pure theory, if you haven't been on one of those trains bringing you to the Macedonian border, or chased by the Serbian's state military to Albania. The only ones who have a vantage point to judge on the whole thing are the ones who suffered personally from the state they don't accept any more. Try to put yourself in a Kosovar's mind before professing ex cathedra.

Tom O'Donoghue:
What you are saying might make perfect sense from your vantage point, but it makes none from ours. K-Albanians simply do not want to have anything to do with Serbia that does not qualify as relations between sovereign states. Since we can get it why should we settle for less?
And why do you think the military presence of NATO and the US should worry us? Small states are bound to come under the influence of Great Powers in any case - witness Serbia and Russia - and we would rather it were the US than Serbia or Russia. But as an independent state Kosova can chose its friends and allies as it sees fit and not as Serbia sees fit. And besides we see the US and NATO military presence as a further guarantee that Serbia will not come back. So you see depending on one's vantage point one can have very different readings of the same situation.

I hope that they do find common ground, otherwise there could well be mayhem and the shape of the future Kosovo will be dictated by the so-called international community. That's not good for anyone.

Things seem to be shifting towards supporting a compromise with the recent comments from Albania and France, which means that the US may be finally seeing that this is the only way to create a peaceful lasting settlement.

That would be neither independence nor returning to Serbian governance. It has to be something between the two which gives full self rule but maintains sovereign boundaries.

After the 10th of December there should be no more "talks" for the sake of talks between the Kosovar Albanians and the Serbian government. Both parties have totally different views when it comes to Sovereignity of Kosova. Kosovar Albanians will never accept to be anymore Serbian citizens. As everyone knows Serbia has lost physically Kosova since 1999 and it has no influence of a sovereign country over Kosova. In other words has nothing to offer because hasn't got it.
Let's agree on that at least. Let each indivudual country to decide to recognise Kosova independence or not. Let's see who gathers more support the Serbian government or the Kosovar Albanians. That would be a fair solution without any threat or blackmail.

to Tom the Irish Man ..

I'd rather be the 51st US state than the Serbian province -:) Is that clear?

Also, can you explain to me why fellow serbian brothers did not want to be part of Serbia or Former SCG???? They are practically the same people ....

Dont blame Albanians for wanting to live in peace and have nothing to do with Serbia especially after they have done to them over hundreds of years ....

Grow up, wake up, try to understand why 2Million people are saying and realise that Serbia will NEVER control Kosova or any other Albanian land. It just does not make any sense. And - yes Albanians have been in these regions before any Serbs if that matters - but lets forget the past and look at the current time and what Serbs have done to Albanians, Croats, Slovenians, Bosnians and tried to do to Montenegrins. None want to be part of Serbia ... NONE ... and neither do Albanians.

Why do I have a feeling that when I check the news later today I'll read that no agreement was reached on the status and that a next meeting is scheduled...lol.

As I read the papers today it seems that war is looming on the Turkish-Iraqi border. If the US recognizes an illegal 'greater albania', then they have to be consistent and recognize Kurdistan, Republika Srpska, North Mitrovica (Serbian) Catalan, Basque, North Ossetia.....let's see how they handle this.

Certainly looks like the Trioka are progressing on with the "negotiations" and the pace of talks will pick up in the coming weeks.

Some would like these to be seen as a facade but come the 10th Decemeber the progress made will be evident and there will be only more talks leading to a solution based on fundamental principles of the international law that enshrines sovereignity of all UN member states.

@ TENI:

You've been playing Risk far too much: choosing allies, having US as a partner, Serbia and Russia against poor Kosovo (please tell me how a country could be agianst its own part, as far as i concerned Kosovo is SERBIA)... what kind of world are you living in?

Marko,
In case of Serbia it is very simple: the Serbian population part was against the K-Albanians. You see that made you Serbs unique. You were not just hostile to them but hurting them badly, hurting your own citizens. By doing so you blew it. Too late now...much too late.

"Do you really think the US would not recognize it? It would have to, otherwise Kosova and the whole region with it would most probably slide into chaos."

Teni,...

the recent NATO-manoeuvers should be a hint for you, that nobody wants a chaos again in that region. so, ...if the Albanians really should dare to play with fire, they could burn their fingers!

it is really sad, that I cannot read albanian newspapers,

...it certainly would be very amusing to read about how weak the Serbs are, and how strong the Albanians, how ready the US are to bomb Serbia again...and how helpless Serbia is now...

there´s only one little thing you didn´t take care of:

the US are arming up the serbian military, do you really believe that they would do that if they planned to fight the Serbs soon again?

let me guess: they do it just to bluff the Serbs! right?

I can only shake my head about your approach to reality!

"Why do I have a feeling that when I check the news later today I'll read that no agreement was reached on the status and that a next meeting is scheduled...lol.
(Funcakes, 22. October 2007 10:00) "

Funcakes, you were right, haha; It doesn't take a Nostradamus anymore to predict what's gonna happen in this "negotiations". This has to be the most elaborate form of diplomatic theatrality. All three sides, K-Alb, Serb and Intl Comm, know that nothing will come out of these and all three go along pretending, while waiting for Dec 11th. Serbs are not even bothering to send a serious party anymore, they send instead third rank burocrats.

Tom O'Donoghue: "An independent Kosovo supported by the US would effectively make Kosovo the 51st state of the USA."

Ahh, that's music to my ears. Were you going for a scare effect Tom? Cause I would, hands down, prefer to have Kosova a state of the USA, rather than have it a province of Serbia. Is that even a choice?

This will be for coffe I guess. They are not talking anything. Anyway it looks like it is going to unilateral independence.

Kate: I wish a solution like the one you are suggesting were possible. Unfortunately it isn't. Independence by definition implies cutting all sovereignty ties with other countries. It's simply a zero sum game: K-Albanians r Serbs get all.
Princip, how about this for a scenario: come December Kosova declares independence. Do you really think the US would not recognize it? It would have to, otherwise Kosova and the whole region with it would most probably slide into chaos. In any case the US cannot go back on its promises and at least some in the EU would follow suit. Then in a few years from now when things have settled a bit when Kosova's independence has become a fact there won't be much Serbia or Russia can do anymore.
But in any case one thing is settled at least: Serbia will NOT rule Kosova again.

Hamid Kari, How do you get independence out of this. You must read past no physical control by Belgrade over Kosovo. It also states no status or indpendence talk either. This sounds like Kosovo will manage their own affairs but Serbia will keep its sovrigenty over Kosovo. It's all leading to (supervised) wide autonomy. Get used to it! Serbia has come with everything but independence and the Troika sees this. K-Albanians came with nothing but independence and the Troika sees that too. So the Troika will use Serbia's plan but tweak a little to come to a solution. Welcome to the new democratic Serbia. And who ever is throwing that independence party, I hope you can get your deposite back :-)

serbs think they are winning the game, but they are loosing it.
they will agree to this 14 points, as long as the independence is not discussed by thinking of a broad autonomy.
BUT; when that is over, K-Albanians will still declare Independence, and serbs can do nothing because they agreed to the 14 points. OK??

Kosova is de facto independent. It will be de jure at the end of these LAST TALKS. There is a reason why they are called "talks"... ;-)

Wow, a number of Albanians on this forum are jumping all over Tom Donaghue. And some of their words come across angry if not condescending. Give Tom a break! He has a right to his opinion. You folks should be happy that someone from far off Ireland even gives a damn about Kosovo.

1. “According to the document, Belgrade and Priština should focus on the development of special joint relations, solving problems peacefully in the future, and not engaging in actions that could be seen as threatening by the other side”.
2. “there will be no repeating of the 1999 situation”, and that
3. "Belgrade will not rule over Kosovo."


As regards to the point no.1 it refers to the “good neighborly relations” offer by Kosovars, point no. 2 says there is no back to the situation as was before 1999, while point no.3 clearly says everything…

Is that “Trojka” had changed its position as being neutral and inactive to very active and influential? I think so!
My question is: what is this happening as we approach December “THE” 10.

Rading comment in here I see nothing new but insults. Last republic of Ex-SFRJ Serbia is to give back the territory that was given.
It ex-citizens are about to be given a choice to choose where to live not forced.

Tom,

Teni explained you pretty well the difference between ventage points. Also if Ireland would be situated near Russia your ventage point would be very different. You most likely would speak only Russian and you would wish to be at your current geographic location, where you can count on the benevolent protection of the US and UK, your big brothers in case of any outside danger.

It is unfortunate that the Danube does not flow through Pristina or else Ursula and I can disembark hand in hand in Pristina and show all the people there that love is what matters and not what flag you fly.Serbian men marrying Albanian women proves this point.Seriously folks,why would anybody think that 2 million impoverished residents in Kosovo who will need to be on EU welfare roles for decades to come are more important to the EU than Russia and Serbia?The next US President needs to bring our boys and girls in uniform home so they can guard Americans from the Islamist menace in our own country.Kosovo is a very simple problem for the Europeans to solve.Any resident in Kosovo can choose between an Albanian or Serbian passport.All Balkan countries enter the EU in 2008(with special temporary provisions in place in the economic sphere) and Albania,Croatia,Macedonia and Montenegro join NATO and be given responsibility for security in Kosovo along with Greek,Romanian and Bulgarian forces.End of problem for the majority of people but obviously the extremists will have to be sent to Guantanmo Bay.

why do you want so much to have sovreiignity over kosovo? do you expect us to forget in ten years or later what you have done to us, so that you can then bring back your army ,arguing of your sovereignity over k? Do you expect to chose for us with whom we should have frienship treaty,and with whom not? of course,you do,but we love usa,you don't so why should we stop our good relation with usa because of serbia? Tell me who will be at the frontier between albania and kosovo,between kosovo and makedonia,kosovo and montenegro? what sovereinity if you do not control these places,and what liberty for us if you do?
We do not forget ,we do not trust you and we do not want to have anything to do with you in the future.
and as mark said,wake up,understand it!
we do not want to live with you,Independence right now!

Here is what was edited, "Thus, the world will think Serbs are creative people."

What does kosovo mean? Where does the name come from? What is the history. How come Kosovo now has 90% Albanians living there now. That is 2-3 times the number that lived there at the start of the 20th Century? What happened? Who's been 'Ethnicaly Cleansed'? have we all been duped?

Ceku also added that "Serbia has a history of refusing agreements."

ok which agreements is he talking about?? the 1914 july ultimatum...

Dragane,
I had to respond after your comment which read something like " US HAVE TO be consistent and recognize Kurdistan, Republika Srpska"....
So I have to let you to a big secret that US they don’t HAVE to do anything. If they don’t gain any profit mainly cash from this “diplomatic missions”.
K.Albanian‘s they had to pay in hard currency for ammunition, planes and heavy armoury used by US Army during campaign of bombing Serbia.
But the same thing is now happening in Serbia with Russia and Gazprom.
But I am optimistic that this process will end in favour of K.Albanian’s due to the fact that policy of US department of treasure is that success in this matters is guaranteed, they don’t believe in schemes like if you are not happy we will refund your money. Worst case scenario can be that K. Albanians would had to pay a bit more. But in this case there is a chance that a new business deal could be reached which might cover expenses in the future for mission’s in Macedonia and Presheva valley, something like get 3 for the price of 2.
My advice to countries-provinces like Kurdistan , Republika Srpska, North Mitrovica, Catalan, Basque, North Ossetia… is to start SAVING

As a fellow Irishman, I must stick up for Tom here. Mr O'Donoghue has made a very valid point in that any settlement that is made must be made within the framework of a supervised, fair and impartial peace agreement and within the context of International Law, i.e. respecting Serbia's inviolability of its borders and territorial integrity, much as the same as the Northern Ireland connundrum was dealth with.

The Good Friday Agreement on was ratified by all parties and the UK's territorial integrity was respected by all sides, including Irish Republicans/nationalists/socialists who agreed that as a compromise, Article 2 & 3 of the Irish Constitution (which upheld our claim to NI, part of UK sovereign territory) would be scratched in exchange for peace, prosperity, setting up of the power sharing executive and a slice of the cake. We haven't looked back since. Its high time for the K-Albanian side to heed and learn from us Irish. We would be more than happy to share our expertise and advice. If we can do it, so can ye.

On the parralles between Ireland and KiM, there isn't any. We are a nation state which means that under UN law, we have the right to self determination. The Albanians have their own state, its called Albania. What the K-Albanians must learn is that they must give up this irredentist agenda of grabbing land and accept the state that they live in. There is no such nationality as Kosovar, where there is Irish, because we are a seperate ethnic group and as I repeat again, the rigth of self determination applies to us as we are a nation. The K-Albanians on the otherhand are an ethnic majority in a Serbian province but overall are a minority in a greater polity, i.e. Republic of Serbia, thus under International Law no legal basis for independence. Compromise, compromise, compromise.

Delije I have a feeling that even Kosova as an independent country Serbia will still have sovereignty over Kosova. Serbia will have sovereignty over Kosova by drawing maps showing Kosova as an independent entity under the Serbian umbrella.

Who stands for the costs of those unecessery negotations, I guess not the russians...

Joe wrote:

"Tom,

Teni explained you pretty well the difference between ventage points. Also if Ireland would be situated near Russia your ventage point would be very different. You most likely would speak only Russian and you would wish to be at your current geographic location, where you can count on the benevolent protection of the US and UK, your big brothers in case of any outside danger."

Dude, calm down. Keep in mind the Irish natively speak Gaelic, not English.

"Ahh, that's music to my ears. Were you going for a scare effect Tom? Cause I would, hands down, prefer to have Kosova a state of the USA, rather than have it a province of Serbia. Is that even a choice?
(Adrian Gashi, 22. October 2007 23:24)"

99% of the Albanians would choose to be the 51st State of the Great USA any time, over being a province of Serbia. The social contract over which Serbia exercised its sovereignty over Kosova/o was nullified by Serbia itself when it engaged in the ethnic cleansing and mass murders of Albanian people. You can't expect Albanians to act as if nothing happened and expect them to once again to accept the sovereignty of the same state that out of its own will tried to erase them from the face of this earth. Its simple. Nothing is complicated here. And because this notion is so simple the solution is simple.

"but maintains sovereign boundaries", said Kate.
Please Kate tell us how is that possible if physical presence of any Serbian institution, such as police and military is completaly off the table and will never have any presence.
I sugest that everybody wkaes up and smells the coffee.
Even next round the discussion will be about treaty of riendship for both countries.Nothing more.

(Tom O'Donoghue, 22. October 2007 15:13)

Whoever you are you should not use this name and present yourself as an Irish as I do personally know O'Donoghue living in Kosova (more precisely in Mitrovica), and he did not post this comment at all. Whoever you are, I can clearly see your intentions to “prove” that even IC is against Kosova’s independence. Nice try a?

However, I repeat the words of one previous commentators here that we Kosovars would rather be a 51 or 1001 US state than with Serbia again.

@ Joe:

Ask what the albanians have done to the serbian population.

This myth that Serbs are the bad ones really has to stop.

I dont know whether you have been to Kosovo and see what it's like to live where 90% of the population is albanian on a serbian territory: not easy mate!

Wish you all a good day!

Oh wait, also better than Montenegro, my mistake. Top 3, or shall I say bottom 3, nonetheless. And you call Serbia the third world? That would put Albania somewhere around fifth.

I am new here so can someone tell me who are with and against us?

So I was right, they got nothing done...

Seriously though, the only fun thing about these negotiations is that, every time there is a meeting, they have to come up with something new...one lamer than the other.

First there were the 14 points, then what's gonna come next? The 28 points? And the 56, and the 112?

Let's all gather around and play "math"...how fun!

Seriously, they should just end these negotiations on November 5th, the more time passes, the more this Troika thing looks ridiculous and useless.

Marko, @ the ANGRY MOB

In response to you comment ‘mate’, you should get your facts right. There is no room for myths anymore and the truth has prevailed finally, therefore Serbian myths and propaganda have been exposed to the world now thanks to the internet and the media who were able to report on the plight of the Serbian dictators and oppression.

You try and live in your own country where predominately populated by your people and yet you have no right to be educated on your own language, being treated as a slaves, degraded to the point where life has no meaning and being different only because you spoke different language, then come and ask that question.

Have a nice read on real history, not the Serbian propaganda.

Marko


I was really going to stop thinking that serbs were always the bad ones, even though you guys started so many wars in the last century.
But the way you express your self, and mostly what I can see here, there is so much hate against albanians and against the fact that there are 90% of alabanians in Kosovo

Tom, why don't you just accept independence? What do you have to lose?

Furthermore, as an Albanian and American I fully support Kosova as the 51st state of USA.

wellcome abord Russia ;-)
On another issue of conflict with the EU, he indicated Moscow's position on the future of Kosovo may be softening and that the Kremlin could support an independent Kosovo if it were achieved as part of a negotiated settlement agreed to by both Serbs and ethnic Albanians.

"We would not like it, but we would not oppose it," he said. "Our aim isn't to be more Serb than the Serbs."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/22/sports/union.php

The international community is so daft to see Serbia’s game plan. Serbia does not seem to bother to much about the end result as long as they get more time on this issue that a success for them. Everyone knows that Kosovo will be independent sooner or later, the dragging of this issue is doing no good to neither side. This is a continuation from the Milosevic era but on a different tone, the cruelty of creating barriers for the Albanian to move forward is again repeated, as we say in Kosovo “the wolves change their hair color but they never forget their profession. This just goes to show that nothing has change in Serbia, and the international community is yet to realize it.

I think the Pristina delegation are playing this game fairly well, the reality of good neighbors is as far as the future of Kosovo ever being ruled by Belgrade. This is turning into a comedy show. I can only see the funny side of this issue. Neither team seems to be bothered putting any effort in the meeting, I feel sorry for both nations, it also seems that Serbia has manage to persuade Kosovo join them in their dark lost future.

Tom O'Donoghue, from your “vantage point in the Republic of Ireland”, I find your statements particularly unbelievable. Your country was colonized, oppressed, and your people fought that oppression and gained an independent state in 1921. I doubt you would have settled for “autonomy” after all the English had done to your people, but they did manage to partition off the north. Note how the east Timorese, given the choice between “autonomy” offered by their Indonesian oppressors, and independence, also voted 80% for independence.

The Kosovar Albanians have also been colonized and oppressed for a century, and they have fought for their own independent state. They are not the slightest bit interested in repetition of “autonomy”, least of all inside the state that recently tried to annihilate them. At most, Serbia may be able to “do a 1921” and likewise partition off its Ulster in the north.

Interesting how you have the same view as Ian Paisley (just google Paisley and Kosovo and see).

As for US military presence, if you think a foreign military presence was not a good idea in the Balkans, maybe you should have advised Milosevic and his mates (which includes most of the current government) to not ethnically cleanse and destabilize the region, what more could be a golden opportunity for a foreign military power to intervene in the region. But what does that have to do with now? Is Serbia opposed to a NATO presence? Better update your facts.

Note that in the joint military exercise carried out between the Serbian army and the Ohio National Guard, the Guard leader said it “had partnerships with 56 countries, and that during the past year they and the Serbian Army had had 21 exchange visits – more than with any other country.”

Still, if you are so concerned, maybe it’s not too late to begin autonomy discussions with mother England.

Adrian Gashi seems to be correct in his views. These last talks do remind me of Ramboullet and Milutinovic heading the Serbian delegation. What were the Serbians doing on the last day of negotiations? Ah yes, singing some Serbian song as the same "Contact Group" was discussing ending sanctions on Serbia and their presense in Kosova. Interesting how history repeats itself. :)

Tom O'Donoghue,
I’m not sure which one from high US representatives, last year had declared: "If US is going to pull back its military forces from Europe, the social system support in Europe will belong to the past"
So, remember that while you sleep and dream well and being not disturbed by Russians, know that this is due to Americans.

Well, here's another thing that in the beginning everyone thought would be breaking the deal: The plans for a US nuclear shield.

Everyone thought that the US would just give up it's stance on Kosovo's independence, just so that the shield could be approved by Russia.

Now seems like the US is willing to delay the activation of the shield, while asking Russia to be tougher on Iran and recognize Kosovo's independence.

Russia won't be getting a better offer than that...will it continue being as supportive of Belgrade still?

Chances are, it won't. Russia usually uses Serbia for it's own personal interest, and once it gets an offer from the West, Serbia suddenly becomes history.

From my vantage point in the Republic of Ireland I am constantly amazed at the naivety of your K-Albanian contributors and their supporters. Their attitude seems to be: "We have the support of the US and some of the EU, so Serbia, Russia and the rest of the world can go to hell."
Do they not see that the only reason the US and some NATO countries support their position is in order to maintain a significant military presence at the heart of the Balkans. An independent Kosovo supported by the US would effectively make Kosovo the 51st state of the USA. To the Kosovar Albanians, I say: accept the widespread autonomy on offer. You will not get a better deal in terms of your own independent decision making and the overall stability of the region.

Rading comment in here I see nothing new but insults. Last republic of Ex-SFRJ Serbia is to give back the territory that was given.
It ex-citizens are about to be given a choice to choose where to live not forced.

I hope that they do find common ground, otherwise there could well be mayhem and the shape of the future Kosovo will be dictated by the so-called international community. That's not good for anyone.

Things seem to be shifting towards supporting a compromise with the recent comments from Albania and France, which means that the US may be finally seeing that this is the only way to create a peaceful lasting settlement.

That would be neither independence nor returning to Serbian governance. It has to be something between the two which gives full self rule but maintains sovereign boundaries.

Kate: I wish a solution like the one you are suggesting were possible. Unfortunately it isn't. Independence by definition implies cutting all sovereignty ties with other countries. It's simply a zero sum game: K-Albanians r Serbs get all.
Princip, how about this for a scenario: come December Kosova declares independence. Do you really think the US would not recognize it? It would have to, otherwise Kosova and the whole region with it would most probably slide into chaos. In any case the US cannot go back on its promises and at least some in the EU would follow suit. Then in a few years from now when things have settled a bit when Kosova's independence has become a fact there won't be much Serbia or Russia can do anymore.
But in any case one thing is settled at least: Serbia will NOT rule Kosova again.

Tom O'Donoghue, your advantaged point of view from Ireland (a really nice country, although too rainy) proves to fall into the same naivety you pretend to see on the others. I'm just wondering why did you guys in Eire decided to separate from Great Britain? Don't you think you've missed a good deal separating from a world power? If you want to take advantage from your experience, that's where to catch hold. If you mind Northern Ireland, than correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of Ulster DOES'NT want the union to Ireland, nor any sort of independece from GB, unlike Kosovo, with its 90 p.c. against any form of a common state with Serbia.
Such arguments are all but pure theory, if you haven't been on one of those trains bringing you to the Macedonian border, or chased by the Serbian's state military to Albania. The only ones who have a vantage point to judge on the whole thing are the ones who suffered personally from the state they don't accept any more. Try to put yourself in a Kosovar's mind before professing ex cathedra.

to Tom the Irish Man ..

I'd rather be the 51st US state than the Serbian province -:) Is that clear?

Also, can you explain to me why fellow serbian brothers did not want to be part of Serbia or Former SCG???? They are practically the same people ....

Dont blame Albanians for wanting to live in peace and have nothing to do with Serbia especially after they have done to them over hundreds of years ....

Grow up, wake up, try to understand why 2Million people are saying and realise that Serbia will NEVER control Kosova or any other Albanian land. It just does not make any sense. And - yes Albanians have been in these regions before any Serbs if that matters - but lets forget the past and look at the current time and what Serbs have done to Albanians, Croats, Slovenians, Bosnians and tried to do to Montenegrins. None want to be part of Serbia ... NONE ... and neither do Albanians.

This will be for coffe I guess. They are not talking anything. Anyway it looks like it is going to unilateral independence.

1. “According to the document, Belgrade and Priština should focus on the development of special joint relations, solving problems peacefully in the future, and not engaging in actions that could be seen as threatening by the other side”.
2. “there will be no repeating of the 1999 situation”, and that
3. "Belgrade will not rule over Kosovo."


As regards to the point no.1 it refers to the “good neighborly relations” offer by Kosovars, point no. 2 says there is no back to the situation as was before 1999, while point no.3 clearly says everything…

Is that “Trojka” had changed its position as being neutral and inactive to very active and influential? I think so!
My question is: what is this happening as we approach December “THE” 10.

Hamid Kari, How do you get independence out of this. You must read past no physical control by Belgrade over Kosovo. It also states no status or indpendence talk either. This sounds like Kosovo will manage their own affairs but Serbia will keep its sovrigenty over Kosovo. It's all leading to (supervised) wide autonomy. Get used to it! Serbia has come with everything but independence and the Troika sees this. K-Albanians came with nothing but independence and the Troika sees that too. So the Troika will use Serbia's plan but tweak a little to come to a solution. Welcome to the new democratic Serbia. And who ever is throwing that independence party, I hope you can get your deposite back :-)

Tom O'Donoghue:
What you are saying might make perfect sense from your vantage point, but it makes none from ours. K-Albanians simply do not want to have anything to do with Serbia that does not qualify as relations between sovereign states. Since we can get it why should we settle for less?
And why do you think the military presence of NATO and the US should worry us? Small states are bound to come under the influence of Great Powers in any case - witness Serbia and Russia - and we would rather it were the US than Serbia or Russia. But as an independent state Kosova can chose its friends and allies as it sees fit and not as Serbia sees fit. And besides we see the US and NATO military presence as a further guarantee that Serbia will not come back. So you see depending on one's vantage point one can have very different readings of the same situation.

Delije I have a feeling that even Kosova as an independent country Serbia will still have sovereignty over Kosova. Serbia will have sovereignty over Kosova by drawing maps showing Kosova as an independent entity under the Serbian umbrella.

serbs think they are winning the game, but they are loosing it.
they will agree to this 14 points, as long as the independence is not discussed by thinking of a broad autonomy.
BUT; when that is over, K-Albanians will still declare Independence, and serbs can do nothing because they agreed to the 14 points. OK??

@ TENI:

You've been playing Risk far too much: choosing allies, having US as a partner, Serbia and Russia against poor Kosovo (please tell me how a country could be agianst its own part, as far as i concerned Kosovo is SERBIA)... what kind of world are you living in?

Marko,
In case of Serbia it is very simple: the Serbian population part was against the K-Albanians. You see that made you Serbs unique. You were not just hostile to them but hurting them badly, hurting your own citizens. By doing so you blew it. Too late now...much too late.

As I read the papers today it seems that war is looming on the Turkish-Iraqi border. If the US recognizes an illegal 'greater albania', then they have to be consistent and recognize Kurdistan, Republika Srpska, North Mitrovica (Serbian) Catalan, Basque, North Ossetia.....let's see how they handle this.

why do you want so much to have sovreiignity over kosovo? do you expect us to forget in ten years or later what you have done to us, so that you can then bring back your army ,arguing of your sovereignity over k? Do you expect to chose for us with whom we should have frienship treaty,and with whom not? of course,you do,but we love usa,you don't so why should we stop our good relation with usa because of serbia? Tell me who will be at the frontier between albania and kosovo,between kosovo and makedonia,kosovo and montenegro? what sovereinity if you do not control these places,and what liberty for us if you do?
We do not forget ,we do not trust you and we do not want to have anything to do with you in the future.
and as mark said,wake up,understand it!
we do not want to live with you,Independence right now!

"Why do I have a feeling that when I check the news later today I'll read that no agreement was reached on the status and that a next meeting is scheduled...lol.
(Funcakes, 22. October 2007 10:00) "

Funcakes, you were right, haha; It doesn't take a Nostradamus anymore to predict what's gonna happen in this "negotiations". This has to be the most elaborate form of diplomatic theatrality. All three sides, K-Alb, Serb and Intl Comm, know that nothing will come out of these and all three go along pretending, while waiting for Dec 11th. Serbs are not even bothering to send a serious party anymore, they send instead third rank burocrats.

Tom O'Donoghue: "An independent Kosovo supported by the US would effectively make Kosovo the 51st state of the USA."

Ahh, that's music to my ears. Were you going for a scare effect Tom? Cause I would, hands down, prefer to have Kosova a state of the USA, rather than have it a province of Serbia. Is that even a choice?

Here is what was edited, "Thus, the world will think Serbs are creative people."

Why do I have a feeling that when I check the news later today I'll read that no agreement was reached on the status and that a next meeting is scheduled...lol.

Everyone needs to understand that the 14 points are just the starting points for disscusion in this process of "negotiations" they are not an imposition upon either party by the troika but tools in which to find consensus on different aspects of how the Serbian province of Kosovo & Metohija can be administered under autonomy.

What is clear is that the concept of imposing a forced partition of Serbia was blocked in the summer and thus the solution will be a solution based on fundamental principles of the international law i.e. one which will not breach the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Serbia. All other solutions will be unstable and create precedents that will create havoc across Europe and the world and are thus highly irresponsible. That is why come the 11th December there will be no illegal unilateral declarations let alone illegal recognition - of course some will suggest otherwise but will come up with another excuse and another artificial deadline.

After the 10th of December there should be no more "talks" for the sake of talks between the Kosovar Albanians and the Serbian government. Both parties have totally different views when it comes to Sovereignity of Kosova. Kosovar Albanians will never accept to be anymore Serbian citizens. As everyone knows Serbia has lost physically Kosova since 1999 and it has no influence of a sovereign country over Kosova. In other words has nothing to offer because hasn't got it.
Let's agree on that at least. Let each indivudual country to decide to recognise Kosova independence or not. Let's see who gathers more support the Serbian government or the Kosovar Albanians. That would be a fair solution without any threat or blackmail.

Tom,

Teni explained you pretty well the difference between ventage points. Also if Ireland would be situated near Russia your ventage point would be very different. You most likely would speak only Russian and you would wish to be at your current geographic location, where you can count on the benevolent protection of the US and UK, your big brothers in case of any outside danger.

Kosova is de facto independent. It will be de jure at the end of these LAST TALKS. There is a reason why they are called "talks"... ;-)

The international community is so daft to see Serbia’s game plan. Serbia does not seem to bother to much about the end result as long as they get more time on this issue that a success for them. Everyone knows that Kosovo will be independent sooner or later, the dragging of this issue is doing no good to neither side. This is a continuation from the Milosevic era but on a different tone, the cruelty of creating barriers for the Albanian to move forward is again repeated, as we say in Kosovo “the wolves change their hair color but they never forget their profession. This just goes to show that nothing has change in Serbia, and the international community is yet to realize it.

Certainly looks like the Trioka are progressing on with the "negotiations" and the pace of talks will pick up in the coming weeks.

Some would like these to be seen as a facade but come the 10th Decemeber the progress made will be evident and there will be only more talks leading to a solution based on fundamental principles of the international law that enshrines sovereignity of all UN member states.

Who stands for the costs of those unecessery negotations, I guess not the russians...

I am new here so can someone tell me who are with and against us?

It is unfortunate that the Danube does not flow through Pristina or else Ursula and I can disembark hand in hand in Pristina and show all the people there that love is what matters and not what flag you fly.Serbian men marrying Albanian women proves this point.Seriously folks,why would anybody think that 2 million impoverished residents in Kosovo who will need to be on EU welfare roles for decades to come are more important to the EU than Russia and Serbia?The next US President needs to bring our boys and girls in uniform home so they can guard Americans from the Islamist menace in our own country.Kosovo is a very simple problem for the Europeans to solve.Any resident in Kosovo can choose between an Albanian or Serbian passport.All Balkan countries enter the EU in 2008(with special temporary provisions in place in the economic sphere) and Albania,Croatia,Macedonia and Montenegro join NATO and be given responsibility for security in Kosovo along with Greek,Romanian and Bulgarian forces.End of problem for the majority of people but obviously the extremists will have to be sent to Guantanmo Bay.

I think the Pristina delegation are playing this game fairly well, the reality of good neighbors is as far as the future of Kosovo ever being ruled by Belgrade. This is turning into a comedy show. I can only see the funny side of this issue. Neither team seems to be bothered putting any effort in the meeting, I feel sorry for both nations, it also seems that Serbia has manage to persuade Kosovo join them in their dark lost future.

Tom O'Donoghue, from your “vantage point in the Republic of Ireland”, I find your statements particularly unbelievable. Your country was colonized, oppressed, and your people fought that oppression and gained an independent state in 1921. I doubt you would have settled for “autonomy” after all the English had done to your people, but they did manage to partition off the north. Note how the east Timorese, given the choice between “autonomy” offered by their Indonesian oppressors, and independence, also voted 80% for independence.

The Kosovar Albanians have also been colonized and oppressed for a century, and they have fought for their own independent state. They are not the slightest bit interested in repetition of “autonomy”, least of all inside the state that recently tried to annihilate them. At most, Serbia may be able to “do a 1921” and likewise partition off its Ulster in the north.

Interesting how you have the same view as Ian Paisley (just google Paisley and Kosovo and see).

As for US military presence, if you think a foreign military presence was not a good idea in the Balkans, maybe you should have advised Milosevic and his mates (which includes most of the current government) to not ethnically cleanse and destabilize the region, what more could be a golden opportunity for a foreign military power to intervene in the region. But what does that have to do with now? Is Serbia opposed to a NATO presence? Better update your facts.

Note that in the joint military exercise carried out between the Serbian army and the Ohio National Guard, the Guard leader said it “had partnerships with 56 countries, and that during the past year they and the Serbian Army had had 21 exchange visits – more than with any other country.”

Still, if you are so concerned, maybe it’s not too late to begin autonomy discussions with mother England.

Adrian Gashi seems to be correct in his views. These last talks do remind me of Ramboullet and Milutinovic heading the Serbian delegation. What were the Serbians doing on the last day of negotiations? Ah yes, singing some Serbian song as the same "Contact Group" was discussing ending sanctions on Serbia and their presense in Kosova. Interesting how history repeats itself. :)

"Ahh, that's music to my ears. Were you going for a scare effect Tom? Cause I would, hands down, prefer to have Kosova a state of the USA, rather than have it a province of Serbia. Is that even a choice?
(Adrian Gashi, 22. October 2007 23:24)"

99% of the Albanians would choose to be the 51st State of the Great USA any time, over being a province of Serbia. The social contract over which Serbia exercised its sovereignty over Kosova/o was nullified by Serbia itself when it engaged in the ethnic cleansing and mass murders of Albanian people. You can't expect Albanians to act as if nothing happened and expect them to once again to accept the sovereignty of the same state that out of its own will tried to erase them from the face of this earth. Its simple. Nothing is complicated here. And because this notion is so simple the solution is simple.

Wow, a number of Albanians on this forum are jumping all over Tom Donaghue. And some of their words come across angry if not condescending. Give Tom a break! He has a right to his opinion. You folks should be happy that someone from far off Ireland even gives a damn about Kosovo.

"but maintains sovereign boundaries", said Kate.
Please Kate tell us how is that possible if physical presence of any Serbian institution, such as police and military is completaly off the table and will never have any presence.
I sugest that everybody wkaes up and smells the coffee.
Even next round the discussion will be about treaty of riendship for both countries.Nothing more.

(Tom O'Donoghue, 22. October 2007 15:13)

Whoever you are you should not use this name and present yourself as an Irish as I do personally know O'Donoghue living in Kosova (more precisely in Mitrovica), and he did not post this comment at all. Whoever you are, I can clearly see your intentions to “prove” that even IC is against Kosova’s independence. Nice try a?

However, I repeat the words of one previous commentators here that we Kosovars would rather be a 51 or 1001 US state than with Serbia again.

@ Joe:

Ask what the albanians have done to the serbian population.

This myth that Serbs are the bad ones really has to stop.

I dont know whether you have been to Kosovo and see what it's like to live where 90% of the population is albanian on a serbian territory: not easy mate!

Wish you all a good day!

Dragane,
I had to respond after your comment which read something like " US HAVE TO be consistent and recognize Kurdistan, Republika Srpska"....
So I have to let you to a big secret that US they don’t HAVE to do anything. If they don’t gain any profit mainly cash from this “diplomatic missions”.
K.Albanian‘s they had to pay in hard currency for ammunition, planes and heavy armoury used by US Army during campaign of bombing Serbia.
But the same thing is now happening in Serbia with Russia and Gazprom.
But I am optimistic that this process will end in favour of K.Albanian’s due to the fact that policy of US department of treasure is that success in this matters is guaranteed, they don’t believe in schemes like if you are not happy we will refund your money. Worst case scenario can be that K. Albanians would had to pay a bit more. But in this case there is a chance that a new business deal could be reached which might cover expenses in the future for mission’s in Macedonia and Presheva valley, something like get 3 for the price of 2.
My advice to countries-provinces like Kurdistan , Republika Srpska, North Mitrovica, Catalan, Basque, North Ossetia… is to start SAVING

Tom O'Donoghue,
I’m not sure which one from high US representatives, last year had declared: "If US is going to pull back its military forces from Europe, the social system support in Europe will belong to the past"
So, remember that while you sleep and dream well and being not disturbed by Russians, know that this is due to Americans.

Marko, @ the ANGRY MOB

In response to you comment ‘mate’, you should get your facts right. There is no room for myths anymore and the truth has prevailed finally, therefore Serbian myths and propaganda have been exposed to the world now thanks to the internet and the media who were able to report on the plight of the Serbian dictators and oppression.

You try and live in your own country where predominately populated by your people and yet you have no right to be educated on your own language, being treated as a slaves, degraded to the point where life has no meaning and being different only because you spoke different language, then come and ask that question.

Have a nice read on real history, not the Serbian propaganda.

Marko


I was really going to stop thinking that serbs were always the bad ones, even though you guys started so many wars in the last century.
But the way you express your self, and mostly what I can see here, there is so much hate against albanians and against the fact that there are 90% of alabanians in Kosovo

Tom, why don't you just accept independence? What do you have to lose?

Furthermore, as an Albanian and American I fully support Kosova as the 51st state of USA.

"Do you really think the US would not recognize it? It would have to, otherwise Kosova and the whole region with it would most probably slide into chaos."

Teni,...

the recent NATO-manoeuvers should be a hint for you, that nobody wants a chaos again in that region. so, ...if the Albanians really should dare to play with fire, they could burn their fingers!

it is really sad, that I cannot read albanian newspapers,

...it certainly would be very amusing to read about how weak the Serbs are, and how strong the Albanians, how ready the US are to bomb Serbia again...and how helpless Serbia is now...

there´s only one little thing you didn´t take care of:

the US are arming up the serbian military, do you really believe that they would do that if they planned to fight the Serbs soon again?

let me guess: they do it just to bluff the Serbs! right?

I can only shake my head about your approach to reality!

wellcome abord Russia ;-)
On another issue of conflict with the EU, he indicated Moscow's position on the future of Kosovo may be softening and that the Kremlin could support an independent Kosovo if it were achieved as part of a negotiated settlement agreed to by both Serbs and ethnic Albanians.

"We would not like it, but we would not oppose it," he said. "Our aim isn't to be more Serb than the Serbs."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/22/sports/union.php

What does kosovo mean? Where does the name come from? What is the history. How come Kosovo now has 90% Albanians living there now. That is 2-3 times the number that lived there at the start of the 20th Century? What happened? Who's been 'Ethnicaly Cleansed'? have we all been duped?

Joe wrote:

"Tom,

Teni explained you pretty well the difference between ventage points. Also if Ireland would be situated near Russia your ventage point would be very different. You most likely would speak only Russian and you would wish to be at your current geographic location, where you can count on the benevolent protection of the US and UK, your big brothers in case of any outside danger."

Dude, calm down. Keep in mind the Irish natively speak Gaelic, not English.

Ceku also added that "Serbia has a history of refusing agreements."

ok which agreements is he talking about?? the 1914 july ultimatum...

So I was right, they got nothing done...

Seriously though, the only fun thing about these negotiations is that, every time there is a meeting, they have to come up with something new...one lamer than the other.

First there were the 14 points, then what's gonna come next? The 28 points? And the 56, and the 112?

Let's all gather around and play "math"...how fun!

Seriously, they should just end these negotiations on November 5th, the more time passes, the more this Troika thing looks ridiculous and useless.

Oh wait, also better than Montenegro, my mistake. Top 3, or shall I say bottom 3, nonetheless. And you call Serbia the third world? That would put Albania somewhere around fifth.

As a fellow Irishman, I must stick up for Tom here. Mr O'Donoghue has made a very valid point in that any settlement that is made must be made within the framework of a supervised, fair and impartial peace agreement and within the context of International Law, i.e. respecting Serbia's inviolability of its borders and territorial integrity, much as the same as the Northern Ireland connundrum was dealth with.

The Good Friday Agreement on was ratified by all parties and the UK's territorial integrity was respected by all sides, including Irish Republicans/nationalists/socialists who agreed that as a compromise, Article 2 & 3 of the Irish Constitution (which upheld our claim to NI, part of UK sovereign territory) would be scratched in exchange for peace, prosperity, setting up of the power sharing executive and a slice of the cake. We haven't looked back since. Its high time for the K-Albanian side to heed and learn from us Irish. We would be more than happy to share our expertise and advice. If we can do it, so can ye.

On the parralles between Ireland and KiM, there isn't any. We are a nation state which means that under UN law, we have the right to self determination. The Albanians have their own state, its called Albania. What the K-Albanians must learn is that they must give up this irredentist agenda of grabbing land and accept the state that they live in. There is no such nationality as Kosovar, where there is Irish, because we are a seperate ethnic group and as I repeat again, the rigth of self determination applies to us as we are a nation. The K-Albanians on the otherhand are an ethnic majority in a Serbian province but overall are a minority in a greater polity, i.e. Republic of Serbia, thus under International Law no legal basis for independence. Compromise, compromise, compromise.

Well, here's another thing that in the beginning everyone thought would be breaking the deal: The plans for a US nuclear shield.

Everyone thought that the US would just give up it's stance on Kosovo's independence, just so that the shield could be approved by Russia.

Now seems like the US is willing to delay the activation of the shield, while asking Russia to be tougher on Iran and recognize Kosovo's independence.

Russia won't be getting a better offer than that...will it continue being as supportive of Belgrade still?

Chances are, it won't. Russia usually uses Serbia for it's own personal interest, and once it gets an offer from the West, Serbia suddenly becomes history.