Yeah, sooner or later...but doesn't really seem like it will be soon enough.
Independence gets declared in December 10th, it will be recognized by enough big countries and the ones who aspire to be like them...and the only ones that won't recognize are, hmmm China, Russia, Serbia, oh...Congo of course.
Funcakes,
You are starting to sound really arrogant with this big guy, little guy argument.
No country wants to be seen as a little guy. Enough countries join Russia/China alliance they will no longer be viewed as little guys but a big collective force.
Also this business of being seen with a wrong eye if you join Russia. Do you seriously believe that the US can go on intimidating countries for as long as they want?
Sooner rather than later these countries will want to have a voice and get their dignity back and will rebel against the "big guy". One way to do that is to be overlooked and their wishes dismissed by this "big guy" and be pushed into the arms of another big buy who is going to give them respect.
Pressure as you put it will not work for ever. The US is starting to be seen as a dictator who pressures and bullies the others to do as they are told. Pressure is precisely what is going to drive some countries away from US.
Yes Peggy, it takes only one of them to veto an EU membership...but have you ever heard of pressure?
Pressure is what governs this universe.
EU countries that align their policies with Russia are automatically viewed with the wrong eye.
And EU countries also have to have VERY strong reasons to veto a country from entering EU, reasons that if they differ from the big guys...automatically get downplayed and laughed at, and very hard to explain.
No one would play the veto game in a blindly partisan way, otherwise their own reputation gets put on the line, especially when talking about the small EU countries whose own standards are questionable.
Besides, what are they gonna do? Veto Kosovo's entry in EU? On what grounds? And what would they want to change in order to not use the veto? To strip it's independence off?
Funcakes, you state that every country wants to distance itself from Russia. I'm afraid that's what you want to believe.
Some countries have already joined the Russia/China alliance and others are waiting to join. This doesn't sound to me like they are running away from Russia.
As far as the 'smaller' countries who won't recognize independent Kosovo being like decayed teeth in the mouth of Europe is quite an overstatement. Again, this is the way you see them and would like the rest of Europe to see them. There are too many of them for Europe to think of them as that. All it takes is one and your entry to EU is blocked. Doesn't sound like a decayed tooth to me because a decayed tooth can be taken out but a country can't.
"Javonic,
Are you saying that you (Serbia)came victorious over NATO in the 1999 Kosova's War? That is funny. Who tells you these stories? Is that from Serbian Orthodox Church? Or is time to create new myths about the Serbian victories?
(EA, 21. October 2007 13:46)"
dear EA...
are you suffering from dyslexia or is that only a naive attempt to provoke me? :)
Javonic,
Are you saying that you (Serbia)came victorious over NATO in the 1999 Kosova's War? That is funny. Who tells you these stories? Is that from Serbian Orthodox Church? Or is time to create new myths about the Serbian victories?
Mito,
"Why wait for the 10th? Do it now we dare you! ;)
Ideally would have been the 28th of November and you can guess why, but the Kosovar Albanian can wait few more days or weeks to coordianate their actions with the international community.
These last ditch talks were the last chance that US and the Albanians gave the Europeans to come united with an independence recognition.
If EU can't do that, EU will be the one that looks split on the issue. But still, individual countries can recognize independence, and those who don't will start looking like decayed teeth in the EU mouth.
Not recognizing the independence of Kosovo this time around...antagonizes you in the world scene. At a time when everyone wants to go as far away from Russia as possible, who'd be willing to have a common stance with them over the West?
That alone makes a country look horrible, especially an EU country...the pressure is too high on those little countries in a dilemma, they can't align themselves with Russia just like that, not without labels like "traitors" imprinted on their heads.
Basically since one poster has stated both sides are desendants of the illyians so bascially are cousins who are feuding over land rights. Related but not wanting to admit that there is some albanian in serbs and serb in albanians but none do not want to admit what goes on behind closed doors. Anyway just another waste of a topic which both sides flame each other but never find a solution.
"Yes, that IS true Mr. Draskovic. HOWEVER that same Rombouillet agreement would have given Nato FULL and UNRESTRICTED access to the WHOLE of Serbia. It was tantamount to the total occupation of Serbia by Nato"
Yes this is true, and for the record I did not support NATO's action. However, I would like you to show me one document where the Serbian government and negotiating team specifically objected to only this point, which was merely an Anex to the main Rambouillet Agreement. I don't believe we heard anything about it fro the Serbian leadership; what the sticking point was was the presence of internatinal forces in Kosova itself, which Serbia rejected in these negotiations. The issue of this Annex has only been raised by supporters and aplogists of Serbia and of Milosevic since that time to give some 'heroic' anti-colonial face to Serbia's rejection of Rambouillet, which, as Draskovic explains, heavily biased *in favour* of Serbian control of Kosova. Moreover, if the Annex suggests that NATO "set the bar too high" because the US believed "a little bombing was necessary" to help the Serbs sign on - a widely spread view - then it also seems that Belgrade wanted a "little bit of bombing" in order to have the cover to carry out its own quite diffeent plan - the Seselj plan, to empty Kosova of its Albanian population, which it proceeded to o with gusto. The reason I say this is that if Serbia did not want to be bombed, it acted very strangely after the collapse of the second rambouillet talks on March 15 - on March 19, four days before NATO began bombing, the army began its new massive ethnic cleansing campaign in earnest, driving ens of thousands of Alvbanians ot of northern Kosova. It was almost like saying to NATO - come on, get on with it.
Draskovic is stating the obvious of what the Albanians have been threatening and crying about all along.
That they will "declare independnece"
But I can't wait to see who will actually go through and recognize them. Funny the US sure is silent these days, I guess this problem with Turkey too has forced them to turn another 90 degrees on the Kosovo issue.
To put it bluntly for you, the US has more important matters to deal with.
I can;t wait for them to actually declare it will be the what 4th-5th time now? The EU will be torn to pieces and the US will faint.
There are actually direct talks taking place right now between Serbia and Kosova. Each side has its own position on the solution of the status quo. International community has its own solution also, which is based on the UN plan, outlined by Mr. Ahtisaari, the envoy selected by Securiy Council (with the approval of Russia and China as well). Let see what the results will be at the end. Anyway, everyone agrees that this is the end of the proces. Period.
Why do you claim that Kosovar - Serbs make up 5 - 7% of Kosova's population when current statistics show a figure of 4.8 - 5.1%?
Also why do Serbs and their politicians claim that Kosova's territory under Serbia is 15% of the total land when the actual fact is 12.1%?
When it comes to facts I can never trust anything that is Belgrade-sponsored. If Kosova had NO albanians prior to 1950 than some came...how fast did these 10k or 15k immigrants multiply to outnumber today Serbs to 17:1? Did everyone of these immigrants have 20 babies?
Most of these facts that are spewed in this forum are based on fiction and we all need to think about them before we just take them as actual facts.
If you believe my facts are not real, research them.
first, somebody should inform you that it was the Albanians who started the war in 1999, actually it was no war, since NATO didn´t dare to send ground-troops, and the so-called KLA was no real enemy.
second: given that they wanted to occupy all of Serbia, and after 78 days of bombings ( only destroying 15 serbian tanks ) they only occupied the southern serbian province of Kosovo i Metohija. and in addition they were glad to sign a document that secured the serbian sovereignty and territorial integrity.
so, if you call that a victory for NATO, so be it.
nothing changed, my dear friend. there´s still UNSC 1244, and you will learn to live with it.
Mr. Draskovic is a private person now, and therefore he must look for a way to sell his books... you should keep that in mind.
I think you presented quite a strong argument and I agree that indeed if absolutely no decision can be made between the two sides and the US/EU (the states pro-independence) recognize independence of Kosovo, it needs to be supervised and monitored, though I disagree with the bending of international law for the sake of Kosovo and I see no real benefit for an independent Kosovo anyway.
There are some things which I would elaborate on the historical argument:
Illyrians did indeed inhabit most of what is now Yugoslavia (through Dacian and Thracian tribes have as well), but Albanians claiming that they are descended from Illyrians while Serbs being called Slavic is not entirely correct.
Invading Slavs from the North merely conquered and Slavicized a portion of the indigenous population, while the Albanian population wasn't (probably due to the fact that they were protected by living in the mountains). Both Serbs and Albanians are descended (either fully or partially) from the indigenous tribes, including the Illyrians.
So to say that Albanians were living there since 1500 BC whilst the "Serbs" only arrived there in the 7th Century is simply not true. Slavs arrived there in the 7th Century and Slavicized a portion of the indigenous population, and one of these cultures (the Serbian culture) originated in Kosovo.
Point of my argument: the ancestors of both people have been living there since the beginning, and even those more visibly descended from the invading Slavs have been there for centuries! They are all entitled to this land historically! Besides, Albanians have a state specifically for them: Albania.
Best example of what I mean is to look at the average Serb and compare him to the average Northern Slav (Russian, Pole, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Czech or Slovak): Serbs and other Southern Slavs are (on average) taller, more slim and darker (typically Dinarid people of the Balkans, obviously a typically Illyrian, Dacian and Thracian trait, characterized by the majority I genetic haplotype) while Poles and Northern Slavs are (on average) shorter, more stocky and fairer (typical Osteuropid feature of the original Slavic people, characterized by the majority R1A genetic haplotype).
On the other hand, contrary to my beliefs, EA says one thing:
"Kosovar Albanians will never accept to be called Serbian citizens after all they have been through because of the Serbia State."
This I cannot argue with and is the only valid argument I have seen from the Albanian side.
I am really impressed to learn that an Serbian official is accepting the truth. What I am a bit disappointed to see is that Vuk has failed to mention all the atrocities Serbian government did to Albanian population in Kosova during last decades.
If an only if the Serbian government was more collaborative to promote democracy and living together with all the nations in former Yugoslavia, we would not be in this situation at all. Unfortunately the heads of the Serbian government were too greedy and wanted to control every single inch of the Yugoslavia (of course at the expense of the local inhabitants). Well, now it is too late to stop the last part of former Yugoslavia (Kosova) to go its own way (i.e. become Independent).
Vuk, has also failed to mention that if Serbia does not collaborate to make the Kosova Independence smooth, later on it will have to fight very hard to get what EU and US is offering now.
Vuk, see you in the independent Kosova.
The sub-standard grammar in this article fits in well with a media organisation that, it appears, has made the decision to fill the majority of its television broadcasting schedule with Big Brother. Good stuff B92, you're really leading the way.
This comes from an ex-FM, he is not jokin about Kosova declaring Independence, and all we need is 192 countries and wolla... you have the Republic of Kosova
It's intersting when this guy was a FM the only thing he could say was Kosova won't be indipendent,it will ever be part of Serbia etc... as soon as he steps down sudenly he shows the real facts,I think that Serbian politians and people should learn from him and get over with their myths claiming yours what was handed to you 100 years ago,it's like going in vacation someplace and after ur back home claiming that place was yours.
Wake up Serbia,We all know what's yours and what's not.
Ju were in Kosova as visitors!!!!
Yes, that IS true Mr. Draskovic. HOWEVER that same Rombouillet agreement would have given Nato FULL and UNRESTRICTED access to the WHOLE of Serbia. It was tantamount to the total occupation of Serbia by Nato and left Serbia without ANY legal jurisdiction on where Nato could go or what they could do. IE: No country on the face of the earth would have agreed to such a proposal. That was their catch 22. Rombouillet talks were held for the sole purpose of Nato waging war against Serbia. They just wanted to make it LOOK like they tried to avoid it. Read between the lines.
He said that direct talks on Kosovo between Belgrade and Priština did not exist as such, and that it was all just a form of manipulation.
“That’s one of the forms of manipulation, as there are no direct talks. They can’t be called direct when neither side is listening to the other’s suggestions,” said Drašković.
Kate, Cvele, Dragan, Jovanovic and others,
How many times have I been saying to you that these so-called "talks" or "negotiations" are a waste of time? There will no agreement when it comes to Kosova's Sovereignity. Kosovar Albanians will never accept to be called Serbian citizens after all they have been through because of the Serbia State. Can you get that? Serbia started a war in Kosova and it lost in 1999. As a looser you have nothing to offer rather than accepting what the others (NATO and European Union) will decide. Who start the war takes the consequences with it.
Of course an agreed solution is the best solution!
Let’s take a closer look at some aspects regarding Kosova(o) where both sides, pro-independence and against-independence camps, disagree. Of course I’ve taken into consideration some good comments (but surely no emotional comments!).
LEGAL: All agree to the undeniable fact (see also the Yugoslav Constitution from 1974): The former Yugoslav federation comprised of Eight Autonomous Federal Units: Six Autonomous Republics (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia) and Two Autonomous Provinces. All eight federal units had the VETO right. So no decision could be taken or no law could be passed in the federal parliament without the CONSENT of all eight federal units. Albanians say: Legally Kosova was just as autonomous as Serbia in the former Yugoslav federation, so if other Federal Units, f.e. Slovenia, Croatia etc. could become independent, then why not Kosova? Serbs say: Well Kosova(o) was asymmetrically associated with Serbia and therefore it cannot become independent. According to Yugoslav Constitution from 1974 Kosova(o) and Vojvodina were also asymmetrically associated with Serbia, but it is an undeniable fact that Serbia could not take any decision without the CONSENT of Kosova(o) and Vojvodina. If the International Community decided tomorrow to keep Kosova(o) within Serbia but give the same autonomous rights as it had in the former Yugoslav federation than Kosova(o) would veto every decision made by the Serb parliament. In the end of the day we would have a non-functional state, and would be doomed to fail. This is neither in the interest of the Serbs nor Kosovars. However everybody agrees that the present situation (this legal limbo of Kosova(o)) is not sustainable.
HISTORICAL: Albanians say they are descendants of Illyrians (tribes who lived in the territory of the whole former Yugoslavia) are indigenous people of Kosova and they have been living there forever. Serbs say Kosovo was the birthplace of the one of the first Serb Kingdoms (in the 13-14th century), and it represents the cradle of their national identity. Commentator Peter Sudyka, 18. October 2007 21:35 (from against-independence camp) mentioned the example of Poland, which was ruled by many rulers, QUOTE: Polish and Lithuanian with Ukrainian and Belarussian, then Russian, Prussian and Austro-Hungarian, then Polish again, then German and Soviet and then Polish again” UNQUOTE. Peter has got a point there. The territory of Poland was ruled by many rulers during the history but today it is ruled by its own citizens, the Poles! According to this logic, Kosovo(a) should be ruled by Kosovars!
SOLUTION: So, what is the best solution: Independence, Confederation between Kosova(o) and Serbia, Integration of Kosova(o) into Serbia, Partition of Kosova(o)? The opinions of both parties cannot be more contradictory: Albanians (90% of the population) are in favour of independence, whereas Kosova(o)-Serbs (5-7% of the population) and Serbia are against it. In the end the International Community will decide the fate of Kosova(o), and everthing indicates some middle way, the Monitored Independence. Is that the best solution? I thing time will tell, but one thing is for sure both Albanians and Serbs need to get along with each other and live in harmony be it in the same state or in two separate states.
It's intersting when this guy was a FM the only thing he could say was Kosova won't be indipendent,it will ever be part of Serbia etc... as soon as he steps down sudenly he shows the real facts,I think that Serbian politians and people should learn from him and get over with their myths claiming yours what was handed to you 100 years ago,it's like going in vacation someplace and after ur back home claiming that place was yours.
Wake up Serbia,We all know what's yours and what's not.
Ju were in Kosova as visitors!!!!
Of course an agreed solution is the best solution!
Let’s take a closer look at some aspects regarding Kosova(o) where both sides, pro-independence and against-independence camps, disagree. Of course I’ve taken into consideration some good comments (but surely no emotional comments!).
LEGAL: All agree to the undeniable fact (see also the Yugoslav Constitution from 1974): The former Yugoslav federation comprised of Eight Autonomous Federal Units: Six Autonomous Republics (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia) and Two Autonomous Provinces. All eight federal units had the VETO right. So no decision could be taken or no law could be passed in the federal parliament without the CONSENT of all eight federal units. Albanians say: Legally Kosova was just as autonomous as Serbia in the former Yugoslav federation, so if other Federal Units, f.e. Slovenia, Croatia etc. could become independent, then why not Kosova? Serbs say: Well Kosova(o) was asymmetrically associated with Serbia and therefore it cannot become independent. According to Yugoslav Constitution from 1974 Kosova(o) and Vojvodina were also asymmetrically associated with Serbia, but it is an undeniable fact that Serbia could not take any decision without the CONSENT of Kosova(o) and Vojvodina. If the International Community decided tomorrow to keep Kosova(o) within Serbia but give the same autonomous rights as it had in the former Yugoslav federation than Kosova(o) would veto every decision made by the Serb parliament. In the end of the day we would have a non-functional state, and would be doomed to fail. This is neither in the interest of the Serbs nor Kosovars. However everybody agrees that the present situation (this legal limbo of Kosova(o)) is not sustainable.
HISTORICAL: Albanians say they are descendants of Illyrians (tribes who lived in the territory of the whole former Yugoslavia) are indigenous people of Kosova and they have been living there forever. Serbs say Kosovo was the birthplace of the one of the first Serb Kingdoms (in the 13-14th century), and it represents the cradle of their national identity. Commentator Peter Sudyka, 18. October 2007 21:35 (from against-independence camp) mentioned the example of Poland, which was ruled by many rulers, QUOTE: Polish and Lithuanian with Ukrainian and Belarussian, then Russian, Prussian and Austro-Hungarian, then Polish again, then German and Soviet and then Polish again” UNQUOTE. Peter has got a point there. The territory of Poland was ruled by many rulers during the history but today it is ruled by its own citizens, the Poles! According to this logic, Kosovo(a) should be ruled by Kosovars!
SOLUTION: So, what is the best solution: Independence, Confederation between Kosova(o) and Serbia, Integration of Kosova(o) into Serbia, Partition of Kosova(o)? The opinions of both parties cannot be more contradictory: Albanians (90% of the population) are in favour of independence, whereas Kosova(o)-Serbs (5-7% of the population) and Serbia are against it. In the end the International Community will decide the fate of Kosova(o), and everthing indicates some middle way, the Monitored Independence. Is that the best solution? I thing time will tell, but one thing is for sure both Albanians and Serbs need to get along with each other and live in harmony be it in the same state or in two separate states.
Yes, that IS true Mr. Draskovic. HOWEVER that same Rombouillet agreement would have given Nato FULL and UNRESTRICTED access to the WHOLE of Serbia. It was tantamount to the total occupation of Serbia by Nato and left Serbia without ANY legal jurisdiction on where Nato could go or what they could do. IE: No country on the face of the earth would have agreed to such a proposal. That was their catch 22. Rombouillet talks were held for the sole purpose of Nato waging war against Serbia. They just wanted to make it LOOK like they tried to avoid it. Read between the lines.
He said that direct talks on Kosovo between Belgrade and Priština did not exist as such, and that it was all just a form of manipulation.
“That’s one of the forms of manipulation, as there are no direct talks. They can’t be called direct when neither side is listening to the other’s suggestions,” said Drašković.
Kate, Cvele, Dragan, Jovanovic and others,
How many times have I been saying to you that these so-called "talks" or "negotiations" are a waste of time? There will no agreement when it comes to Kosova's Sovereignity. Kosovar Albanians will never accept to be called Serbian citizens after all they have been through because of the Serbia State. Can you get that? Serbia started a war in Kosova and it lost in 1999. As a looser you have nothing to offer rather than accepting what the others (NATO and European Union) will decide. Who start the war takes the consequences with it.
first, somebody should inform you that it was the Albanians who started the war in 1999, actually it was no war, since NATO didn´t dare to send ground-troops, and the so-called KLA was no real enemy.
second: given that they wanted to occupy all of Serbia, and after 78 days of bombings ( only destroying 15 serbian tanks ) they only occupied the southern serbian province of Kosovo i Metohija. and in addition they were glad to sign a document that secured the serbian sovereignty and territorial integrity.
so, if you call that a victory for NATO, so be it.
nothing changed, my dear friend. there´s still UNSC 1244, and you will learn to live with it.
Mr. Draskovic is a private person now, and therefore he must look for a way to sell his books... you should keep that in mind.
This comes from an ex-FM, he is not jokin about Kosova declaring Independence, and all we need is 192 countries and wolla... you have the Republic of Kosova
Draskovic is stating the obvious of what the Albanians have been threatening and crying about all along.
That they will "declare independnece"
But I can't wait to see who will actually go through and recognize them. Funny the US sure is silent these days, I guess this problem with Turkey too has forced them to turn another 90 degrees on the Kosovo issue.
To put it bluntly for you, the US has more important matters to deal with.
I can;t wait for them to actually declare it will be the what 4th-5th time now? The EU will be torn to pieces and the US will faint.
I am really impressed to learn that an Serbian official is accepting the truth. What I am a bit disappointed to see is that Vuk has failed to mention all the atrocities Serbian government did to Albanian population in Kosova during last decades.
If an only if the Serbian government was more collaborative to promote democracy and living together with all the nations in former Yugoslavia, we would not be in this situation at all. Unfortunately the heads of the Serbian government were too greedy and wanted to control every single inch of the Yugoslavia (of course at the expense of the local inhabitants). Well, now it is too late to stop the last part of former Yugoslavia (Kosova) to go its own way (i.e. become Independent).
Vuk, has also failed to mention that if Serbia does not collaborate to make the Kosova Independence smooth, later on it will have to fight very hard to get what EU and US is offering now.
Vuk, see you in the independent Kosova.
Why do you claim that Kosovar - Serbs make up 5 - 7% of Kosova's population when current statistics show a figure of 4.8 - 5.1%?
Also why do Serbs and their politicians claim that Kosova's territory under Serbia is 15% of the total land when the actual fact is 12.1%?
When it comes to facts I can never trust anything that is Belgrade-sponsored. If Kosova had NO albanians prior to 1950 than some came...how fast did these 10k or 15k immigrants multiply to outnumber today Serbs to 17:1? Did everyone of these immigrants have 20 babies?
Most of these facts that are spewed in this forum are based on fiction and we all need to think about them before we just take them as actual facts.
If you believe my facts are not real, research them.
Mito,
"Why wait for the 10th? Do it now we dare you! ;)
Ideally would have been the 28th of November and you can guess why, but the Kosovar Albanian can wait few more days or weeks to coordianate their actions with the international community.
The sub-standard grammar in this article fits in well with a media organisation that, it appears, has made the decision to fill the majority of its television broadcasting schedule with Big Brother. Good stuff B92, you're really leading the way.
Javonic,
Are you saying that you (Serbia)came victorious over NATO in the 1999 Kosova's War? That is funny. Who tells you these stories? Is that from Serbian Orthodox Church? Or is time to create new myths about the Serbian victories?
I think you presented quite a strong argument and I agree that indeed if absolutely no decision can be made between the two sides and the US/EU (the states pro-independence) recognize independence of Kosovo, it needs to be supervised and monitored, though I disagree with the bending of international law for the sake of Kosovo and I see no real benefit for an independent Kosovo anyway.
There are some things which I would elaborate on the historical argument:
Illyrians did indeed inhabit most of what is now Yugoslavia (through Dacian and Thracian tribes have as well), but Albanians claiming that they are descended from Illyrians while Serbs being called Slavic is not entirely correct.
Invading Slavs from the North merely conquered and Slavicized a portion of the indigenous population, while the Albanian population wasn't (probably due to the fact that they were protected by living in the mountains). Both Serbs and Albanians are descended (either fully or partially) from the indigenous tribes, including the Illyrians.
So to say that Albanians were living there since 1500 BC whilst the "Serbs" only arrived there in the 7th Century is simply not true. Slavs arrived there in the 7th Century and Slavicized a portion of the indigenous population, and one of these cultures (the Serbian culture) originated in Kosovo.
Point of my argument: the ancestors of both people have been living there since the beginning, and even those more visibly descended from the invading Slavs have been there for centuries! They are all entitled to this land historically! Besides, Albanians have a state specifically for them: Albania.
Best example of what I mean is to look at the average Serb and compare him to the average Northern Slav (Russian, Pole, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Czech or Slovak): Serbs and other Southern Slavs are (on average) taller, more slim and darker (typically Dinarid people of the Balkans, obviously a typically Illyrian, Dacian and Thracian trait, characterized by the majority I genetic haplotype) while Poles and Northern Slavs are (on average) shorter, more stocky and fairer (typical Osteuropid feature of the original Slavic people, characterized by the majority R1A genetic haplotype).
On the other hand, contrary to my beliefs, EA says one thing:
"Kosovar Albanians will never accept to be called Serbian citizens after all they have been through because of the Serbia State."
This I cannot argue with and is the only valid argument I have seen from the Albanian side.
There are actually direct talks taking place right now between Serbia and Kosova. Each side has its own position on the solution of the status quo. International community has its own solution also, which is based on the UN plan, outlined by Mr. Ahtisaari, the envoy selected by Securiy Council (with the approval of Russia and China as well). Let see what the results will be at the end. Anyway, everyone agrees that this is the end of the proces. Period.
These last ditch talks were the last chance that US and the Albanians gave the Europeans to come united with an independence recognition.
If EU can't do that, EU will be the one that looks split on the issue. But still, individual countries can recognize independence, and those who don't will start looking like decayed teeth in the EU mouth.
Not recognizing the independence of Kosovo this time around...antagonizes you in the world scene. At a time when everyone wants to go as far away from Russia as possible, who'd be willing to have a common stance with them over the West?
That alone makes a country look horrible, especially an EU country...the pressure is too high on those little countries in a dilemma, they can't align themselves with Russia just like that, not without labels like "traitors" imprinted on their heads.
Funcakes, you state that every country wants to distance itself from Russia. I'm afraid that's what you want to believe.
Some countries have already joined the Russia/China alliance and others are waiting to join. This doesn't sound to me like they are running away from Russia.
As far as the 'smaller' countries who won't recognize independent Kosovo being like decayed teeth in the mouth of Europe is quite an overstatement. Again, this is the way you see them and would like the rest of Europe to see them. There are too many of them for Europe to think of them as that. All it takes is one and your entry to EU is blocked. Doesn't sound like a decayed tooth to me because a decayed tooth can be taken out but a country can't.
"Yes, that IS true Mr. Draskovic. HOWEVER that same Rombouillet agreement would have given Nato FULL and UNRESTRICTED access to the WHOLE of Serbia. It was tantamount to the total occupation of Serbia by Nato"
Yes this is true, and for the record I did not support NATO's action. However, I would like you to show me one document where the Serbian government and negotiating team specifically objected to only this point, which was merely an Anex to the main Rambouillet Agreement. I don't believe we heard anything about it fro the Serbian leadership; what the sticking point was was the presence of internatinal forces in Kosova itself, which Serbia rejected in these negotiations. The issue of this Annex has only been raised by supporters and aplogists of Serbia and of Milosevic since that time to give some 'heroic' anti-colonial face to Serbia's rejection of Rambouillet, which, as Draskovic explains, heavily biased *in favour* of Serbian control of Kosova. Moreover, if the Annex suggests that NATO "set the bar too high" because the US believed "a little bombing was necessary" to help the Serbs sign on - a widely spread view - then it also seems that Belgrade wanted a "little bit of bombing" in order to have the cover to carry out its own quite diffeent plan - the Seselj plan, to empty Kosova of its Albanian population, which it proceeded to o with gusto. The reason I say this is that if Serbia did not want to be bombed, it acted very strangely after the collapse of the second rambouillet talks on March 15 - on March 19, four days before NATO began bombing, the army began its new massive ethnic cleansing campaign in earnest, driving ens of thousands of Alvbanians ot of northern Kosova. It was almost like saying to NATO - come on, get on with it.
Basically since one poster has stated both sides are desendants of the illyians so bascially are cousins who are feuding over land rights. Related but not wanting to admit that there is some albanian in serbs and serb in albanians but none do not want to admit what goes on behind closed doors. Anyway just another waste of a topic which both sides flame each other but never find a solution.
"Javonic,
Are you saying that you (Serbia)came victorious over NATO in the 1999 Kosova's War? That is funny. Who tells you these stories? Is that from Serbian Orthodox Church? Or is time to create new myths about the Serbian victories?
(EA, 21. October 2007 13:46)"
dear EA...
are you suffering from dyslexia or is that only a naive attempt to provoke me? :)
Yes Peggy, it takes only one of them to veto an EU membership...but have you ever heard of pressure?
Pressure is what governs this universe.
EU countries that align their policies with Russia are automatically viewed with the wrong eye.
And EU countries also have to have VERY strong reasons to veto a country from entering EU, reasons that if they differ from the big guys...automatically get downplayed and laughed at, and very hard to explain.
No one would play the veto game in a blindly partisan way, otherwise their own reputation gets put on the line, especially when talking about the small EU countries whose own standards are questionable.
Besides, what are they gonna do? Veto Kosovo's entry in EU? On what grounds? And what would they want to change in order to not use the veto? To strip it's independence off?
Funcakes,
You are starting to sound really arrogant with this big guy, little guy argument.
No country wants to be seen as a little guy. Enough countries join Russia/China alliance they will no longer be viewed as little guys but a big collective force.
Also this business of being seen with a wrong eye if you join Russia. Do you seriously believe that the US can go on intimidating countries for as long as they want?
Sooner rather than later these countries will want to have a voice and get their dignity back and will rebel against the "big guy". One way to do that is to be overlooked and their wishes dismissed by this "big guy" and be pushed into the arms of another big buy who is going to give them respect.
Pressure as you put it will not work for ever. The US is starting to be seen as a dictator who pressures and bullies the others to do as they are told. Pressure is precisely what is going to drive some countries away from US.
Yeah, sooner or later...but doesn't really seem like it will be soon enough.
Independence gets declared in December 10th, it will be recognized by enough big countries and the ones who aspire to be like them...and the only ones that won't recognize are, hmmm China, Russia, Serbia, oh...Congo of course.
It's intersting when this guy was a FM the only thing he could say was Kosova won't be indipendent,it will ever be part of Serbia etc... as soon as he steps down sudenly he shows the real facts,I think that Serbian politians and people should learn from him and get over with their myths claiming yours what was handed to you 100 years ago,it's like going in vacation someplace and after ur back home claiming that place was yours.
Wake up Serbia,We all know what's yours and what's not.
Ju were in Kosova as visitors!!!!
He said that direct talks on Kosovo between Belgrade and Priština did not exist as such, and that it was all just a form of manipulation.
“That’s one of the forms of manipulation, as there are no direct talks. They can’t be called direct when neither side is listening to the other’s suggestions,” said Drašković.
Kate, Cvele, Dragan, Jovanovic and others,
How many times have I been saying to you that these so-called "talks" or "negotiations" are a waste of time? There will no agreement when it comes to Kosova's Sovereignity. Kosovar Albanians will never accept to be called Serbian citizens after all they have been through because of the Serbia State. Can you get that? Serbia started a war in Kosova and it lost in 1999. As a looser you have nothing to offer rather than accepting what the others (NATO and European Union) will decide. Who start the war takes the consequences with it.
This comes from an ex-FM, he is not jokin about Kosova declaring Independence, and all we need is 192 countries and wolla... you have the Republic of Kosova
Why do you claim that Kosovar - Serbs make up 5 - 7% of Kosova's population when current statistics show a figure of 4.8 - 5.1%?
Also why do Serbs and their politicians claim that Kosova's territory under Serbia is 15% of the total land when the actual fact is 12.1%?
When it comes to facts I can never trust anything that is Belgrade-sponsored. If Kosova had NO albanians prior to 1950 than some came...how fast did these 10k or 15k immigrants multiply to outnumber today Serbs to 17:1? Did everyone of these immigrants have 20 babies?
Most of these facts that are spewed in this forum are based on fiction and we all need to think about them before we just take them as actual facts.
If you believe my facts are not real, research them.
I am really impressed to learn that an Serbian official is accepting the truth. What I am a bit disappointed to see is that Vuk has failed to mention all the atrocities Serbian government did to Albanian population in Kosova during last decades.
If an only if the Serbian government was more collaborative to promote democracy and living together with all the nations in former Yugoslavia, we would not be in this situation at all. Unfortunately the heads of the Serbian government were too greedy and wanted to control every single inch of the Yugoslavia (of course at the expense of the local inhabitants). Well, now it is too late to stop the last part of former Yugoslavia (Kosova) to go its own way (i.e. become Independent).
Vuk, has also failed to mention that if Serbia does not collaborate to make the Kosova Independence smooth, later on it will have to fight very hard to get what EU and US is offering now.
Vuk, see you in the independent Kosova.
There are actually direct talks taking place right now between Serbia and Kosova. Each side has its own position on the solution of the status quo. International community has its own solution also, which is based on the UN plan, outlined by Mr. Ahtisaari, the envoy selected by Securiy Council (with the approval of Russia and China as well). Let see what the results will be at the end. Anyway, everyone agrees that this is the end of the proces. Period.
Yes, that IS true Mr. Draskovic. HOWEVER that same Rombouillet agreement would have given Nato FULL and UNRESTRICTED access to the WHOLE of Serbia. It was tantamount to the total occupation of Serbia by Nato and left Serbia without ANY legal jurisdiction on where Nato could go or what they could do. IE: No country on the face of the earth would have agreed to such a proposal. That was their catch 22. Rombouillet talks were held for the sole purpose of Nato waging war against Serbia. They just wanted to make it LOOK like they tried to avoid it. Read between the lines.
I think you presented quite a strong argument and I agree that indeed if absolutely no decision can be made between the two sides and the US/EU (the states pro-independence) recognize independence of Kosovo, it needs to be supervised and monitored, though I disagree with the bending of international law for the sake of Kosovo and I see no real benefit for an independent Kosovo anyway.
There are some things which I would elaborate on the historical argument:
Illyrians did indeed inhabit most of what is now Yugoslavia (through Dacian and Thracian tribes have as well), but Albanians claiming that they are descended from Illyrians while Serbs being called Slavic is not entirely correct.
Invading Slavs from the North merely conquered and Slavicized a portion of the indigenous population, while the Albanian population wasn't (probably due to the fact that they were protected by living in the mountains). Both Serbs and Albanians are descended (either fully or partially) from the indigenous tribes, including the Illyrians.
So to say that Albanians were living there since 1500 BC whilst the "Serbs" only arrived there in the 7th Century is simply not true. Slavs arrived there in the 7th Century and Slavicized a portion of the indigenous population, and one of these cultures (the Serbian culture) originated in Kosovo.
Point of my argument: the ancestors of both people have been living there since the beginning, and even those more visibly descended from the invading Slavs have been there for centuries! They are all entitled to this land historically! Besides, Albanians have a state specifically for them: Albania.
Best example of what I mean is to look at the average Serb and compare him to the average Northern Slav (Russian, Pole, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Czech or Slovak): Serbs and other Southern Slavs are (on average) taller, more slim and darker (typically Dinarid people of the Balkans, obviously a typically Illyrian, Dacian and Thracian trait, characterized by the majority I genetic haplotype) while Poles and Northern Slavs are (on average) shorter, more stocky and fairer (typical Osteuropid feature of the original Slavic people, characterized by the majority R1A genetic haplotype).
On the other hand, contrary to my beliefs, EA says one thing:
"Kosovar Albanians will never accept to be called Serbian citizens after all they have been through because of the Serbia State."
This I cannot argue with and is the only valid argument I have seen from the Albanian side.
first, somebody should inform you that it was the Albanians who started the war in 1999, actually it was no war, since NATO didn´t dare to send ground-troops, and the so-called KLA was no real enemy.
second: given that they wanted to occupy all of Serbia, and after 78 days of bombings ( only destroying 15 serbian tanks ) they only occupied the southern serbian province of Kosovo i Metohija. and in addition they were glad to sign a document that secured the serbian sovereignty and territorial integrity.
so, if you call that a victory for NATO, so be it.
nothing changed, my dear friend. there´s still UNSC 1244, and you will learn to live with it.
Mr. Draskovic is a private person now, and therefore he must look for a way to sell his books... you should keep that in mind.
Draskovic is stating the obvious of what the Albanians have been threatening and crying about all along.
That they will "declare independnece"
But I can't wait to see who will actually go through and recognize them. Funny the US sure is silent these days, I guess this problem with Turkey too has forced them to turn another 90 degrees on the Kosovo issue.
To put it bluntly for you, the US has more important matters to deal with.
I can;t wait for them to actually declare it will be the what 4th-5th time now? The EU will be torn to pieces and the US will faint.
"Yes, that IS true Mr. Draskovic. HOWEVER that same Rombouillet agreement would have given Nato FULL and UNRESTRICTED access to the WHOLE of Serbia. It was tantamount to the total occupation of Serbia by Nato"
Yes this is true, and for the record I did not support NATO's action. However, I would like you to show me one document where the Serbian government and negotiating team specifically objected to only this point, which was merely an Anex to the main Rambouillet Agreement. I don't believe we heard anything about it fro the Serbian leadership; what the sticking point was was the presence of internatinal forces in Kosova itself, which Serbia rejected in these negotiations. The issue of this Annex has only been raised by supporters and aplogists of Serbia and of Milosevic since that time to give some 'heroic' anti-colonial face to Serbia's rejection of Rambouillet, which, as Draskovic explains, heavily biased *in favour* of Serbian control of Kosova. Moreover, if the Annex suggests that NATO "set the bar too high" because the US believed "a little bombing was necessary" to help the Serbs sign on - a widely spread view - then it also seems that Belgrade wanted a "little bit of bombing" in order to have the cover to carry out its own quite diffeent plan - the Seselj plan, to empty Kosova of its Albanian population, which it proceeded to o with gusto. The reason I say this is that if Serbia did not want to be bombed, it acted very strangely after the collapse of the second rambouillet talks on March 15 - on March 19, four days before NATO began bombing, the army began its new massive ethnic cleansing campaign in earnest, driving ens of thousands of Alvbanians ot of northern Kosova. It was almost like saying to NATO - come on, get on with it.
These last ditch talks were the last chance that US and the Albanians gave the Europeans to come united with an independence recognition.
If EU can't do that, EU will be the one that looks split on the issue. But still, individual countries can recognize independence, and those who don't will start looking like decayed teeth in the EU mouth.
Not recognizing the independence of Kosovo this time around...antagonizes you in the world scene. At a time when everyone wants to go as far away from Russia as possible, who'd be willing to have a common stance with them over the West?
That alone makes a country look horrible, especially an EU country...the pressure is too high on those little countries in a dilemma, they can't align themselves with Russia just like that, not without labels like "traitors" imprinted on their heads.
Mito,
"Why wait for the 10th? Do it now we dare you! ;)
Ideally would have been the 28th of November and you can guess why, but the Kosovar Albanian can wait few more days or weeks to coordianate their actions with the international community.
Javonic,
Are you saying that you (Serbia)came victorious over NATO in the 1999 Kosova's War? That is funny. Who tells you these stories? Is that from Serbian Orthodox Church? Or is time to create new myths about the Serbian victories?
"Javonic,
Are you saying that you (Serbia)came victorious over NATO in the 1999 Kosova's War? That is funny. Who tells you these stories? Is that from Serbian Orthodox Church? Or is time to create new myths about the Serbian victories?
(EA, 21. October 2007 13:46)"
dear EA...
are you suffering from dyslexia or is that only a naive attempt to provoke me? :)
Of course an agreed solution is the best solution!
Let’s take a closer look at some aspects regarding Kosova(o) where both sides, pro-independence and against-independence camps, disagree. Of course I’ve taken into consideration some good comments (but surely no emotional comments!).
LEGAL: All agree to the undeniable fact (see also the Yugoslav Constitution from 1974): The former Yugoslav federation comprised of Eight Autonomous Federal Units: Six Autonomous Republics (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia) and Two Autonomous Provinces. All eight federal units had the VETO right. So no decision could be taken or no law could be passed in the federal parliament without the CONSENT of all eight federal units. Albanians say: Legally Kosova was just as autonomous as Serbia in the former Yugoslav federation, so if other Federal Units, f.e. Slovenia, Croatia etc. could become independent, then why not Kosova? Serbs say: Well Kosova(o) was asymmetrically associated with Serbia and therefore it cannot become independent. According to Yugoslav Constitution from 1974 Kosova(o) and Vojvodina were also asymmetrically associated with Serbia, but it is an undeniable fact that Serbia could not take any decision without the CONSENT of Kosova(o) and Vojvodina. If the International Community decided tomorrow to keep Kosova(o) within Serbia but give the same autonomous rights as it had in the former Yugoslav federation than Kosova(o) would veto every decision made by the Serb parliament. In the end of the day we would have a non-functional state, and would be doomed to fail. This is neither in the interest of the Serbs nor Kosovars. However everybody agrees that the present situation (this legal limbo of Kosova(o)) is not sustainable.
HISTORICAL: Albanians say they are descendants of Illyrians (tribes who lived in the territory of the whole former Yugoslavia) are indigenous people of Kosova and they have been living there forever. Serbs say Kosovo was the birthplace of the one of the first Serb Kingdoms (in the 13-14th century), and it represents the cradle of their national identity. Commentator Peter Sudyka, 18. October 2007 21:35 (from against-independence camp) mentioned the example of Poland, which was ruled by many rulers, QUOTE: Polish and Lithuanian with Ukrainian and Belarussian, then Russian, Prussian and Austro-Hungarian, then Polish again, then German and Soviet and then Polish again” UNQUOTE. Peter has got a point there. The territory of Poland was ruled by many rulers during the history but today it is ruled by its own citizens, the Poles! According to this logic, Kosovo(a) should be ruled by Kosovars!
SOLUTION: So, what is the best solution: Independence, Confederation between Kosova(o) and Serbia, Integration of Kosova(o) into Serbia, Partition of Kosova(o)? The opinions of both parties cannot be more contradictory: Albanians (90% of the population) are in favour of independence, whereas Kosova(o)-Serbs (5-7% of the population) and Serbia are against it. In the end the International Community will decide the fate of Kosova(o), and everthing indicates some middle way, the Monitored Independence. Is that the best solution? I thing time will tell, but one thing is for sure both Albanians and Serbs need to get along with each other and live in harmony be it in the same state or in two separate states.
The sub-standard grammar in this article fits in well with a media organisation that, it appears, has made the decision to fill the majority of its television broadcasting schedule with Big Brother. Good stuff B92, you're really leading the way.
Basically since one poster has stated both sides are desendants of the illyians so bascially are cousins who are feuding over land rights. Related but not wanting to admit that there is some albanian in serbs and serb in albanians but none do not want to admit what goes on behind closed doors. Anyway just another waste of a topic which both sides flame each other but never find a solution.
Funcakes, you state that every country wants to distance itself from Russia. I'm afraid that's what you want to believe.
Some countries have already joined the Russia/China alliance and others are waiting to join. This doesn't sound to me like they are running away from Russia.
As far as the 'smaller' countries who won't recognize independent Kosovo being like decayed teeth in the mouth of Europe is quite an overstatement. Again, this is the way you see them and would like the rest of Europe to see them. There are too many of them for Europe to think of them as that. All it takes is one and your entry to EU is blocked. Doesn't sound like a decayed tooth to me because a decayed tooth can be taken out but a country can't.
Yes Peggy, it takes only one of them to veto an EU membership...but have you ever heard of pressure?
Pressure is what governs this universe.
EU countries that align their policies with Russia are automatically viewed with the wrong eye.
And EU countries also have to have VERY strong reasons to veto a country from entering EU, reasons that if they differ from the big guys...automatically get downplayed and laughed at, and very hard to explain.
No one would play the veto game in a blindly partisan way, otherwise their own reputation gets put on the line, especially when talking about the small EU countries whose own standards are questionable.
Besides, what are they gonna do? Veto Kosovo's entry in EU? On what grounds? And what would they want to change in order to not use the veto? To strip it's independence off?
Funcakes,
You are starting to sound really arrogant with this big guy, little guy argument.
No country wants to be seen as a little guy. Enough countries join Russia/China alliance they will no longer be viewed as little guys but a big collective force.
Also this business of being seen with a wrong eye if you join Russia. Do you seriously believe that the US can go on intimidating countries for as long as they want?
Sooner rather than later these countries will want to have a voice and get their dignity back and will rebel against the "big guy". One way to do that is to be overlooked and their wishes dismissed by this "big guy" and be pushed into the arms of another big buy who is going to give them respect.
Pressure as you put it will not work for ever. The US is starting to be seen as a dictator who pressures and bullies the others to do as they are told. Pressure is precisely what is going to drive some countries away from US.
Yeah, sooner or later...but doesn't really seem like it will be soon enough.
Independence gets declared in December 10th, it will be recognized by enough big countries and the ones who aspire to be like them...and the only ones that won't recognize are, hmmm China, Russia, Serbia, oh...Congo of course.
IMAGE SOURCE
24 Komentari
Sortiraj po: