Joe the albanian,
Congo was a sarchastic comment. The whole point is that the US would fix the conference with a mojority who would vote in there favour.
Jovan, I just don't understand why you Serbs retreat to belittling and insulting other members when you have nothing else to say. Is this how the youth is raised and taught in Serbia?
So that guy (non albanian) wrote that article and you insult another member by saying, "shows your maturity in regard to politics and of course your obviously limited general knowledge."
B-92
I do not know why my comments don't get published but i think i have a fair good idea.
Anyway good luck with your monologue. you surely are not interested in hearing what we have to say.
now the selfproclaimed superpower hasn´t just a problem with russian veto within un, but also with the veto of every single eu-member in the sphere of foreign policy.
how about washington negotiating just with the pristinars about indiependence, just like the last 8 years.
it stays the same, usa, uk, superpower albania and the virgin islands want an indiependent kosovo.
my dear Joe, no matter where you are from, but...for my personal taste, you are talking a little bit too light-minded and careless about nationality and honor ...
poeple who are quoting J.F.K are a little bit strange anyway, given that he had connections with the mafia and those mafia-organisations forced the members of tradeunions to vote for Kennedy.
if someone like this person is somebody you prefer to quote - it´s your decision.
but that also shows your maturity in regard to politics and of course your obviously limited general knowledge.
that´s something you can be prould of, of course, no matter who or what you prefer to be today, or tomorrow.
YOUR FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE ! The ride is over ,The only ones that will be affected is people of Kosovo ,Albanians ,Serbians and other minorities in Kosovo how have to live together. If they ever learn to respect each other and work together for the common good and peace. Then they will have a good future. They have to reject the pressure of outside interference how would love nothing better then to destablise Kosovo and push there self interest agendas. Make some kind of pretext to interfere and forward there agenda of hate ,division ,indifference to the suffering of all the people of Kosovo.
I took the time to read this Arsenijevic article and it definitely raises a number of valid points on the relations of the people in the Balkans, though the way it's written shows that it cannot be quoted for fact, rather it is just an opinion. I doubt that some of the things he said apply to all Serbs. You can't tell me that all Serbs have such perceptions of the Albanians. On the other hand just looking at the comments posted by the Serbs and the Albanians here, neither side will admit to their faults and both sides will forever accuse each other. Then again, from my personal experience, this type of commentary is mostly common among nationalists, I'd like to know what the average people think.
Yet at the same time, I feel we need to conclude that a good portion of this deep seated prejudice and mistrust are stemmed from direct experience of violence and conflict. Serbs don't base their prejudices on distinct memories of intimidation, threats to one's own livelihood, and visible acts of violence that have taken place since 1999. In other words, mutual mistrust and intolerance is primarily based on mutual acts of discrimination and intimidation, something the article overlooks.
Kosovo Has never been Province of Serbia...it actually been province of Yugoslavia like many Republics. SO Kosovo is the Last Remaining Problem of Yugoslavia...not Serbia....serbia never had Provinces...Good luck with Kosovo.
While I read your comments I can't help but realize that most of you have never been, are, and probably will never go in Kosova, nor do you have any relatives or friends who live there. I can personally name right now, without a list, more than 150 people, either family or friends who live in Kosova, and that makes me smile and ignore your comments half-way.
Today Kosova is populated by Albanians, and that was the same 1300 years ago, and will be the same 1300 years later. It's all about destiny and no one can do anything to change that.
These Americans will stop at nothing in order to set up a Nato base. I guess their think tank really believes that Kosovo is the strategic corner for their future objectives. I wonder which countries would be participating in this conference. I bet it would be the ones the US can force or blackmail into voting their direction. For certain you won't see countries like India, China, or anyone non- aligned with the US.
mike,
i think you missed the part where it says albanians have a
different language, different culture thus being treated differently, and considering serbs had interests in kosovo and so did albanians, made the situation slightly different than say serbs and croats
Do the Serbs know what UN is in Kosovo for. UN came to Kosovo to protect the people of Kosovo from Serbia's aggression and to make sure that it will never happen.
Well if you insist I will tell you with pleasure that I am an Albanian paraphrasing John F. Kennedy's famous saying in Berlin "Ich bin a Berliner".
Actuelly as most people know on this site I am a Hungarian American. But out of respect, sympathy and admiration for the K-Albanians I now solemnly profess I AM AN ALBANIAN! Since there are about 14 million Hungarians in and around Hungary, who feel just like me you can count them also as Albanians. Together with the 6 million Albanians in the Balkans that make a total of 20 million Albanians. In the future I can also sign my comments by "Joe the Albanian". It is like a badge of honor.
This is so ridiculous-the majority wants to give the Albanians everything they want and Serbia nothing. Nothing should be done with just a majority vote.
", but rather because both communities have been affected by war, violence, and social upheaval, and both sides tenaciously cling to ethnic myths of superiority that are seemingly based off of downgrading and belitting the other."
Our Albanian youth has a parent, brother, sister, or a friend dead. Your Serbian youth only heard bombs drop on Serbia --- that's all. You can't claim that war conditions have affected Serbia (besides economically) whereas this 100 year oppression followed by a war has not completely screwed up the people but changed our society.
Since Serbian teenagers have been leaving a cozy life I'd expect them to be better leaders and less followers. Serbian teenagers should be much more tolerant..but they aren't.
I guess the US will invite the Conference the UK, France, Germany,Russia and Italy and out vote Russia 5-1. When in reality it should be the major countries, US, EU, Russia, China, India and Congo.
I think Teni's "numbers game" post illustrates the problem quite well. The problem isn't what the Serbs did to the Albanians, its what the Albanians THINK the Serbs did to them.
Teni claims that 12,000 Kosovo-Albanians were killed by the Serbs, and she isn't the first Albanian I've heard saying that.
There is no way that 12,000 Albanians were killed. In August 2000 the Hague Tribunal announced that it had exhumed 2,788 bodies in Kosovo, based on 4,400 unique reports of killings (and not all of those people were Albanians).
In June 2000 the Red Cross reported that 3,368 civilians (2,500 Albanians, 400 Serbs, and 100 Roma) were still missing from the Kosovo war.
The combined total of confirmed dead and missing on all sides has never been more than 6,156. There is no way that 12,000 Albanians could have been killed, much less been victims of war crimes.
The majority of the bodies found in Kosovo were not even victims of war crimes. KFOR told Agence France Presse in July of 1999 that out of the 2,150 bodies that had been discovered up to that point only about 850 were thought to be victims of war crimes.
According information coming out of the Hague Tribunal (specifically Patrick Ball's testimony at the Milutinovic trial last year), the most recent combined total of dead and missing from the Kosovo war is about 4,200 people.
The claim of a million people ethnically cleansed is similarly absurd. There were never even a million refugees, much less one million victims of ethnic cleansing.
The Albanians are acting the way they are because they BELIEVE that they suffered a far worse fate than they actually did.
I'm sure the war wasn't fun, and undoubtedly people were victimized and did suffer, but it was hardly the modern-day Holocaust that they seem to think it was.
The treatment that they've doled out to the Serbs and Roma, and the scale of ethnically motivated crimes committed by Albanians over the last eight years has been equal to if not worse than what the Milosevic regime did to them.
We really have reached (if not gone past) the point of moral equivalance between the Serbs and the Albanians.
This notion of Albanian victimhood is laughable when we're in a situation where 75% of Kosovo's non-Albanian population is either a refugee living in Serbia-proper or an internally displaced person in Kosovo.
From the end of the war until the end of 2003, 847 Kosovo-Serbs were killed and another 1,154 went missing. Given that Serbs were only about 10% of Kosovo's population to begin with -- the scale of the brutality suffered by the Kosovo-Serb population was far worse than anything suffered by the Albanians under Milosevic.
The Albanians can not point the finger at Miloseivc and claim a "moral right" to independence, because they have more than gotten even with the Serbs. What ever debt Serbia owed to the Albanians for the crimes of Milosevic's regime it has been paid back with interest with the blood of the Kosovo Serbs.
Arsenijevic's article got me thinking some more, and I appreciate being able to read it. The crux of the matter is this, and let's not mince words: Albanians are essentially regarded as the "niggers" of the Balkans by most other groups. This is essentially what the article was says, and this is was essentially drives the level of intolerance and hatred generated against them by their surrounding neighbors. The article also raised a good point on the role of collective denial on part of the Serb people, both in regards to the war in Kosovo and in thinking that nothing can ever come out of anything created by, or led by, an Albanian. These prejudices, coupled with the idea that not only are Albanians living in Kosovo, they're overpopulating the area and kicking "us", the Serbs, out of our ancestral homeland. So it's bad enough that Albanians are regarded as stupid and backward, but that they are "stealing" our land makes it even worse. This was essentially what the article was trying to say is the collective mentality of Serbs today.
One problem I have with the article is that there is no causal link between this notion of deep seated prejudice and the human agency that perpetuates it. In other words, we have to ask ourselves why, out of all the other people in the Balkans, are the Albanians singled out as the scapegoat? I mean there's rivalry between Serbs and Croats, but Albanians are seen to be beneath both. What would warrant such animosity? Are Serbs genetically born with a hatred of Albanians? This is similar to asking if Turks are genetically built to deny the Armenian Genocide.
We cannot debunk an historical myth of victimhood on behalf of the Serbs by ascribing victimhood to the Albanians. Had 1999 until now produced no revenge attacks, no Orthodox churches destroyed, no Serb houses burned, and no Serb people killed, Serbs would have every obligation to eat their prejudicial words and hang their heads in shame. However, a key part of the article also says that now the levels of discrimination and wanton racism being being directed towards Serbs by Albanians. We might chalk it up to pent up rage and frustration and a sense of seeking revenge on one's former masters, but how do we explain acts of violence against women, children, priests, and innocent people all around? We cannot ignore these.
Knowing full well the views and opinions I have held on this site, I feel Arsenijevic's article was excellent in highlighting attitudinal perceptions of the "other" in the Balkans. Yet at the same time, I feel we need to conclude that a good portion of this deep seated prejudice and mistrust are stemmed from direct experience of violence and conflict. Serbs don't hate the Albanians just because they're different from them and that they breed a lot. They base their prejudices on distinct memories of intimidation, threats to one's own livelihood, and visible acts of violence that have taken place since 1999. In other words, mutual mistrust and intolerance is primarily based on mutual acts of discrimination and intimidation, something the article overlooks.
I'd be curious to hear from our more moderate Albanians like Teni, Nikshala, or Village-Bey on what they think of this. I think that if both sides get to the heart of the matter of why their groups collectively think they way they do about the other, we might start the long road to reconciliation and a better life for both peoples.
"the important thing is that you cant make a single setp further than northern Mitrovica.
(Nick, 19. October 2007 17:51)"
well, Nick... if that is it what is really important to you, than you are a really sad person.
but you ought to know that you´re disqualifying yourself either with such a comment.
to Miri: since you do not know me personally, it is quite immature to write something like that about me.
you are as well, disqualifying yourself, the only difference to Nick is that he is not getting "personal".
to your information, I am neither arrogant nor do I think bad of avergae Albanians. but that doesn´t count for you.
and last but not least, Joe, why don´t you admit being an Albanian? I mean, if Albanians are so proud like Miri just wrote, why are some of them here pretending to be non-albanians? ( like predictor did in his first comment here ) do you really believe that someone not being from southern Serbia really would write in that self-disqualifying way?
you are simply not credible!
you could name yourself Mortimer and I would not believe you to be english, you could name yourself Günter and again, you wouldn´t be credible as being a German...
it is so cheesy to see on and on those ineffectual attempts to deceive others here...you won´t get away with it.
and by getting personal on that low level won´t help you either!
so, please get over with that. it is no wonder that it is mostly you who are complaining about censorship...and now I understand that it must be very low-leveled, what the B92-guys censor here...if your comments are not getting posted.
When the US can get themselves straightened out, then they should consider talking about KosovO. It's completely irrelevant that the US AMbassador to NATO made the ridiculous remarks that she did - another piece of evidence that NATO is nothing but a puppet of the US (like we didn't know that already).
Amazing when something works for you, keep the VETO, when it doesn't, pull it out.
Furthermore, the date has changed once again - this only proves that nothing will happen.
Serbian citizens irrespective of ethnicity?" You surely cannot mean K-Albanians because they are no longer citizens of Serbia. They were once upon a time citizens of Yugoslavia, that is true.
(teni, 19. October 2007 15:52)
Teni- Just a simple question. Who are they citizens of? Surely not Kosovo. And if they are where was I when it became a country. And as for them being Yugoslavian citizens once upon a time, when Yugo split up, and Kosovo fell under Serbia you became Serbian citizens. You may not like it but thats the way it is. You can complain all you want, you can claim independence all you want, reality is that you are Serbian Citizens, you don't like that you can move to any country you want just so you don't have Serbian Citizenship. But to have Kosovo citizenship as you want will never happen and isn't logical. Any sain person can understand that.
Joe, you may respect the Albanians but you have little to no respect for Serbs as is displayed in your comments, so your one good deed is cancelled out by the other and places you in a precarious position to frame any moral judegement.
On a second note, and the reason for me writing this comment before I saw Joe's comment, the Arsenijevic article is very telling and very blunt. I can't disagree with most of what was said, though I draw attention to the final part in which many Serb youths show a surprisingly display of discrimination against non-Serbs. I'm curious to know what percentage of Albanian students of equal age show parallel levels of contempt towards Serbs and other non-Albanians. I say this not to throw off blame on one side and place it on another, but rather because both communities have been affected by war, violence, and social upheaval, and both sides tenaciously cling to ethnic myths of superiority that are seemingly based off of downgrading and belitting the other. The article speaks of a general Serb contempt for Albanians, but how many Albanians were raised to show intolerance towards Serbs?
Kosovo albanians ARE still citizens of Serbia, the several thousands albanians from Kosovo that apply for serb passport clearly shows that they are willing to accept serbian citizenship.
However all illegal immigrants and their children from the 70:s and 80:s from albania might not qualify for serbian citizenship.
This desperate act of the US shows that they know that their promises to the Kosovo albanians can not be honored if the Russians and chinese put an end to all this with their vetos, therefore they try to make up some new rules for "this unique case Kosovo is" However they are naive if they think that the Russians will allow these new rules. Its the same as if you are losing in poker, you just can't make up some new rules just before showdown that a pair of threes will beat a flush, regardless if that is what you are having on your hand at that moment... The opponentw would never accept that, just the same in international politics.
I find this segement to be not worth reading, bringing up the past is going to solve the problems that are now. I read about the rapes, the killings the torture so forth was this not done on both sides? No one side is without guilt Teni and his crew preach about independence and how will independence be? Let me see a liter of fuel is more that 1 euro a litter of oil 3 euros, buk or bread 75 cents i remember it being 20 cents the closer you think independence is coming the worst things will get for those who have nothing. No one looks at that only jumping up and down independence will when independence hits you in the face and reality sets in the hand is going to be out for help. You ask for independence now you have it. It is like feeding a baby a steak and telling it to eat. I said this once and i will say it now, the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence the sun cast a false shadow when kosovo is going. I cannot wait to here teni, afrim, ida point fingers blame nato, unmik and soon Eu for all the problems.
"In fact many citizens – our young particularly – disappointed by all sides, seem to have decided that they don't believe in anything any more, like that simpleton bathing in the lake."
Vladimir portrays those who are not naive as simpletons. I wonder if this "simpleton", was simple when he refused to believe the lies fabricated by the US State department that soccer fields were being used as giant cemeteries in KiM. A day never went by without James Reubin exaggerated true events on the ground. He and Clinton should have been called to give evidence during Milosevic's trial. He would have made quick work of them.
This, self loathing "Serb," Vladimir is clearly on someone's payroll to discredit Serbs, referring to his own people as way as simpletons or barbarians, all the while constructing an article completely based on insinuation and exaggeration. This article does not have one shred of proof to back up its insinuations!!!
This article may comfort some Albanian expansionists, or give them a a reason to pursue hegemony over the Serbs in Kosovo, but it will treated as a laughingstock in Serbia and not worth the paper it is printed on.
I am not surprised that there are not more "Serbian" voices like Vladimir's. Some Albanians would portray that objectivesness as Serbian revisionism, but like the "Simpleton," I too am not duped to be a self loathing Serb, on a mission to amputate my land.
Contrary to Vladimir's claims that Serbs are self loathing or guilt ridden, I say we are a proud race, with a glorious history that has served as a European example of peace, democracy and justice.
To Teni et al. Try and understand that K.Albanians are living in Serbia through choice. Remember that Kosovo was a part of Serbia during the days when it was part of Jugoslavia.
You are simply trying to justify your aggression against Serbia and your designs on Kosovo by inflating and perpetuating the hatred of Albanians against their fellow Serb citizens. A far more successful solution to the plight of Serbs & Albanians would be to cooperate rather than insist on creating division. It's naive to assume that a change in status or independence will solve your problems.
I am just wondering why some of your messages don't get suppressed. You show a lot of disrespect and arrogance toward the K-Albanians. As a none Albanian reading your messages I have even more understanding and sympathy for them. You seem to forget that the colonialist era is over a long time ago.
You know Jovan,
We Albanians are a proud people, sometimes too proud. Because we are not you negroes we don't want to live under your terms, and calling us your citizens doesn't make it right. You probably read the article with a smile in your face that's because you are one of those described by the author.
signandsight is well known for putting together articles found across the web in a quie nonreflective way...
this one is so openly anti-serbian that I really doubt that this man has written it only out of a journalistic impulse, but that´s another topic.
if you Albanians see yourself as the negroes of the balkans, so be it, the Serbs here are constantly and continiously trying to explain to you that you are serbian CITIZENS as well, but if you just wish to wind yourself in self-pity... that is your choice.
but it won´t change the fact, that you have no right whatsoever to take away serbian territory.
it simply is not yours alone.
it belongst to the whole of Serbia and that is definitely something you will learn in the future, otherwise you are only shooting yourself into the feet.
I was commenting on the first draft of this article which had a different title and contained only the last part of the existing artcile.
On the other hand, i like the idea of the coference, so long as its brief and decisive.
As for whether independence will come soon or not, so what if it takes another few months, the important thing is that you cant make a single setp further than northern Mitrovica.
"he diplomats added that while France said the idea should be considered, Paris also believes it could only be organized, "in a period of time measuring many months," after December 10. "
could it be that the above posted excerpt from the article is the reason for that quite emotional commenting by teni, Nick etc. ?
you are being duped, and if you do not get it by now, you certainly will in the future.
what is so sad about it, it is your own fault, that things are not progressing...
the french say "many months" ...
I say never, because I am honest to you.
and so republica srpska in bosnia should have full indepence right after and the serbs in croatia should also have wide autonomy are independence also bottom line
southern states could ask for independence like california and miami to name a few since mexicnas are absolute majority and Miami are Cubans same with Texas so they could ask for wide autonomy are independence
So now more tricks by the americans to try to bypass the UNSC and a veto in any way they can. Do they think Serbs and Russians are stupid? How many times does Russia have to tell them 'no'? Let me make it clear to them, or anyone who is listening, the UN Security Council is the only legal means to change borders, and it shall not be bypassed. If you choose the ignore the UNSC, then you will have world chaos on your hands, with every minority group in the world using the 'Kosovo precedent' as justification for terrorism and separatism.
It would be interesting to see how Serbia and Russia would react to such a proposal if one were indeed on the table. Given all the boasting about enjoying the support of most of the world , Serbia should not have a problem with it. If they do not agree on the other hand, it would show what we have been saying all along: that most countries support Kosova's independence and the only thing standing in its way is a Russian veto. Simple.
Here is the path.
http://www.signandsight.
com/features/1582.html
Princip: Before answering your point I invite you to read Zeka's comment that proves my point better than I ever could. And I also want to ask you what exactly you mean by "Serbian citizens irrespective of ethnicity?" You surely cannot mean K-Albanians because they are no longer citizens of Serbia. They were once upon a time citizens of Yugoslavia, that is true.
As for what you say I have repeatedly said that what happened to the Serbs after the war was shameful and unacceptable. But although I detest playing the numbers game don't forget that around 12000 K-Albanians died, approximately 100 000 houses burned and God knows how many were raped, tortured, arrested, beaten etc and more than 1 million were ethnically cleansed. (And no it was not because of the bombing.)And that was all on top of what Milosevic had done before the war started. Does it seem a normal state of affairs to you to have 600 000 thousand K-Albanians out of 2 million arrested for "informative talks", in 7 years? While these figures do in no way justify what happened to the Serbs they do explain why it happened. And I am afraid that by insisting that Kosova stay part of Serbia you are simply laying the ground for more of the same in years to come. From both sides.
the status is what is is and hopefully for everyone citizens benefit in Serbia everyone will realise the state they are in and start the reconcilation to a better Serbia for all.
Teni, your version of events is so twisted and unrealistic it's almost funny, even if it is deadly serious. Perpetuating these exaggerations does noone any good.
So Mr. Kostunica and crew want to contiue sitting and talking while the people of Kosova suffer the consequences of lack of status.
I say NO and everyone should say NO to a continuation of talks with Serbia.
Every effort by the Kosovar delegation to be constructive up to this point has been used by weak EU politicians to justify a postponement of status by claiming that progress is beeing made because the parties are "smiling at each other"
Such hypochrisy.
Our political leaders as well are failing to reflect the level of public anger for the delays in Kosovo, and this anger will sooner or later boil over.
What does it really take for the EU to realize that we do not care what Serbia thinks and we do not care what Russia thinks and finally we do not want to become a testing ground for all types of experiments, the latest beeing "EU unity in foreign policy"
So long as Kosova is linked to Serbia in whatever form, there WILL be conflict and there WILL be trouble.
However, i am confident that after December 10th, the people of Kosova will say ENOUGH and declare independence.
and what about all the non-Albanians who have suffered been raped, mutilated, tortured (mentally & physically), killed and ethnically cleansed at the hands of the mafiocracy that has a strangle hold over the ordinary Serbian (irrespective of ethnicity) citizens in this Serbian province?
It is not just in the last years that they have been suffering as you are only too aware.
I don't now how many of the Serbs here took the trouble to read Arsenijevic's article, but those that did had some pretty vitriolic remarks about it. That simply drives home the point that Kosova can never, ever be anything but an independent state because most Albanians know from experience that what Arsenijevic was saying is absolutely right, while the Serbs are in denial about it. Princip & company can go on and on as much as they like about Serbia being tolerant, democratic etc, but they should remember that if they suffered under Milosevi, the K-Albanians suffered 1000 times worse. After all I don't remember the VJ killing, raping, burning and plundering any Serb villages or towns. So given this situation how can one even speak of reconciliation between Serbia and Kosova and them living happily together ever after? That is just about the greatest nonsense anyone can think of and everybody knows it. So Jeremic and his ilk can ask for extensions of talks and what not but even if they do get an extension they will never convince K-Albanians that they have a future in Serbia. Having autonomy and being demilitarized under Serb rule for the Kosovars basically amounts to living under the same roof with the person who beat, tortured and killed you and depending on that person's goodwill for your wellbeing.
I don't now how many of the Serbs here took the trouble to read Arsenijevic's article, but those that did had some pretty vitriolic remarks about it. That simply drives home the point that Kosova can never, ever be anything but an independent state because most Albanians know from experience that what Arsenijevic was saying is absolutely right, while the Serbs are in denial about it. Princip & company can go on and on as much as they like about Serbia being tolerant, democratic etc, but they should remember that if they suffered under Milosevi, the K-Albanians suffered 1000 times worse. After all I don't remember the VJ killing, raping, burning and plundering any Serb villages or towns. So given this situation how can one even speak of reconciliation between Serbia and Kosova and them living happily together ever after? That is just about the greatest nonsense anyone can think of and everybody knows it. So Jeremic and his ilk can ask for extensions of talks and what not but even if they do get an extension they will never convince K-Albanians that they have a future in Serbia. Having autonomy and being demilitarized under Serb rule for the Kosovars basically amounts to living under the same roof with the person who beat, tortured and killed you and depending on that person's goodwill for your wellbeing.
So now more tricks by the americans to try to bypass the UNSC and a veto in any way they can. Do they think Serbs and Russians are stupid? How many times does Russia have to tell them 'no'? Let me make it clear to them, or anyone who is listening, the UN Security Council is the only legal means to change borders, and it shall not be bypassed. If you choose the ignore the UNSC, then you will have world chaos on your hands, with every minority group in the world using the 'Kosovo precedent' as justification for terrorism and separatism.
Here is the path.
http://www.signandsight.
com/features/1582.html
Princip: Before answering your point I invite you to read Zeka's comment that proves my point better than I ever could. And I also want to ask you what exactly you mean by "Serbian citizens irrespective of ethnicity?" You surely cannot mean K-Albanians because they are no longer citizens of Serbia. They were once upon a time citizens of Yugoslavia, that is true.
As for what you say I have repeatedly said that what happened to the Serbs after the war was shameful and unacceptable. But although I detest playing the numbers game don't forget that around 12000 K-Albanians died, approximately 100 000 houses burned and God knows how many were raped, tortured, arrested, beaten etc and more than 1 million were ethnically cleansed. (And no it was not because of the bombing.)And that was all on top of what Milosevic had done before the war started. Does it seem a normal state of affairs to you to have 600 000 thousand K-Albanians out of 2 million arrested for "informative talks", in 7 years? While these figures do in no way justify what happened to the Serbs they do explain why it happened. And I am afraid that by insisting that Kosova stay part of Serbia you are simply laying the ground for more of the same in years to come. From both sides.
and what about all the non-Albanians who have suffered been raped, mutilated, tortured (mentally & physically), killed and ethnically cleansed at the hands of the mafiocracy that has a strangle hold over the ordinary Serbian (irrespective of ethnicity) citizens in this Serbian province?
It is not just in the last years that they have been suffering as you are only too aware.
So Mr. Kostunica and crew want to contiue sitting and talking while the people of Kosova suffer the consequences of lack of status.
I say NO and everyone should say NO to a continuation of talks with Serbia.
Every effort by the Kosovar delegation to be constructive up to this point has been used by weak EU politicians to justify a postponement of status by claiming that progress is beeing made because the parties are "smiling at each other"
Such hypochrisy.
Our political leaders as well are failing to reflect the level of public anger for the delays in Kosovo, and this anger will sooner or later boil over.
What does it really take for the EU to realize that we do not care what Serbia thinks and we do not care what Russia thinks and finally we do not want to become a testing ground for all types of experiments, the latest beeing "EU unity in foreign policy"
So long as Kosova is linked to Serbia in whatever form, there WILL be conflict and there WILL be trouble.
However, i am confident that after December 10th, the people of Kosova will say ENOUGH and declare independence.
"he diplomats added that while France said the idea should be considered, Paris also believes it could only be organized, "in a period of time measuring many months," after December 10. "
could it be that the above posted excerpt from the article is the reason for that quite emotional commenting by teni, Nick etc. ?
you are being duped, and if you do not get it by now, you certainly will in the future.
what is so sad about it, it is your own fault, that things are not progressing...
the french say "many months" ...
I say never, because I am honest to you.
Teni, your version of events is so twisted and unrealistic it's almost funny, even if it is deadly serious. Perpetuating these exaggerations does noone any good.
and so republica srpska in bosnia should have full indepence right after and the serbs in croatia should also have wide autonomy are independence also bottom line
I think Teni's "numbers game" post illustrates the problem quite well. The problem isn't what the Serbs did to the Albanians, its what the Albanians THINK the Serbs did to them.
Teni claims that 12,000 Kosovo-Albanians were killed by the Serbs, and she isn't the first Albanian I've heard saying that.
There is no way that 12,000 Albanians were killed. In August 2000 the Hague Tribunal announced that it had exhumed 2,788 bodies in Kosovo, based on 4,400 unique reports of killings (and not all of those people were Albanians).
In June 2000 the Red Cross reported that 3,368 civilians (2,500 Albanians, 400 Serbs, and 100 Roma) were still missing from the Kosovo war.
The combined total of confirmed dead and missing on all sides has never been more than 6,156. There is no way that 12,000 Albanians could have been killed, much less been victims of war crimes.
The majority of the bodies found in Kosovo were not even victims of war crimes. KFOR told Agence France Presse in July of 1999 that out of the 2,150 bodies that had been discovered up to that point only about 850 were thought to be victims of war crimes.
According information coming out of the Hague Tribunal (specifically Patrick Ball's testimony at the Milutinovic trial last year), the most recent combined total of dead and missing from the Kosovo war is about 4,200 people.
The claim of a million people ethnically cleansed is similarly absurd. There were never even a million refugees, much less one million victims of ethnic cleansing.
The Albanians are acting the way they are because they BELIEVE that they suffered a far worse fate than they actually did.
I'm sure the war wasn't fun, and undoubtedly people were victimized and did suffer, but it was hardly the modern-day Holocaust that they seem to think it was.
The treatment that they've doled out to the Serbs and Roma, and the scale of ethnically motivated crimes committed by Albanians over the last eight years has been equal to if not worse than what the Milosevic regime did to them.
We really have reached (if not gone past) the point of moral equivalance between the Serbs and the Albanians.
This notion of Albanian victimhood is laughable when we're in a situation where 75% of Kosovo's non-Albanian population is either a refugee living in Serbia-proper or an internally displaced person in Kosovo.
From the end of the war until the end of 2003, 847 Kosovo-Serbs were killed and another 1,154 went missing. Given that Serbs were only about 10% of Kosovo's population to begin with -- the scale of the brutality suffered by the Kosovo-Serb population was far worse than anything suffered by the Albanians under Milosevic.
The Albanians can not point the finger at Miloseivc and claim a "moral right" to independence, because they have more than gotten even with the Serbs. What ever debt Serbia owed to the Albanians for the crimes of Milosevic's regime it has been paid back with interest with the blood of the Kosovo Serbs.
signandsight is well known for putting together articles found across the web in a quie nonreflective way...
this one is so openly anti-serbian that I really doubt that this man has written it only out of a journalistic impulse, but that´s another topic.
if you Albanians see yourself as the negroes of the balkans, so be it, the Serbs here are constantly and continiously trying to explain to you that you are serbian CITIZENS as well, but if you just wish to wind yourself in self-pity... that is your choice.
but it won´t change the fact, that you have no right whatsoever to take away serbian territory.
it simply is not yours alone.
it belongst to the whole of Serbia and that is definitely something you will learn in the future, otherwise you are only shooting yourself into the feet.
the status is what is is and hopefully for everyone citizens benefit in Serbia everyone will realise the state they are in and start the reconcilation to a better Serbia for all.
It would be interesting to see how Serbia and Russia would react to such a proposal if one were indeed on the table. Given all the boasting about enjoying the support of most of the world , Serbia should not have a problem with it. If they do not agree on the other hand, it would show what we have been saying all along: that most countries support Kosova's independence and the only thing standing in its way is a Russian veto. Simple.
Serbian citizens irrespective of ethnicity?" You surely cannot mean K-Albanians because they are no longer citizens of Serbia. They were once upon a time citizens of Yugoslavia, that is true.
(teni, 19. October 2007 15:52)
Teni- Just a simple question. Who are they citizens of? Surely not Kosovo. And if they are where was I when it became a country. And as for them being Yugoslavian citizens once upon a time, when Yugo split up, and Kosovo fell under Serbia you became Serbian citizens. You may not like it but thats the way it is. You can complain all you want, you can claim independence all you want, reality is that you are Serbian Citizens, you don't like that you can move to any country you want just so you don't have Serbian Citizenship. But to have Kosovo citizenship as you want will never happen and isn't logical. Any sain person can understand that.
Kosovo albanians ARE still citizens of Serbia, the several thousands albanians from Kosovo that apply for serb passport clearly shows that they are willing to accept serbian citizenship.
However all illegal immigrants and their children from the 70:s and 80:s from albania might not qualify for serbian citizenship.
This desperate act of the US shows that they know that their promises to the Kosovo albanians can not be honored if the Russians and chinese put an end to all this with their vetos, therefore they try to make up some new rules for "this unique case Kosovo is" However they are naive if they think that the Russians will allow these new rules. Its the same as if you are losing in poker, you just can't make up some new rules just before showdown that a pair of threes will beat a flush, regardless if that is what you are having on your hand at that moment... The opponentw would never accept that, just the same in international politics.
When the US can get themselves straightened out, then they should consider talking about KosovO. It's completely irrelevant that the US AMbassador to NATO made the ridiculous remarks that she did - another piece of evidence that NATO is nothing but a puppet of the US (like we didn't know that already).
Amazing when something works for you, keep the VETO, when it doesn't, pull it out.
Furthermore, the date has changed once again - this only proves that nothing will happen.
southern states could ask for independence like california and miami to name a few since mexicnas are absolute majority and Miami are Cubans same with Texas so they could ask for wide autonomy are independence
I am just wondering why some of your messages don't get suppressed. You show a lot of disrespect and arrogance toward the K-Albanians. As a none Albanian reading your messages I have even more understanding and sympathy for them. You seem to forget that the colonialist era is over a long time ago.
"In fact many citizens – our young particularly – disappointed by all sides, seem to have decided that they don't believe in anything any more, like that simpleton bathing in the lake."
Vladimir portrays those who are not naive as simpletons. I wonder if this "simpleton", was simple when he refused to believe the lies fabricated by the US State department that soccer fields were being used as giant cemeteries in KiM. A day never went by without James Reubin exaggerated true events on the ground. He and Clinton should have been called to give evidence during Milosevic's trial. He would have made quick work of them.
This, self loathing "Serb," Vladimir is clearly on someone's payroll to discredit Serbs, referring to his own people as way as simpletons or barbarians, all the while constructing an article completely based on insinuation and exaggeration. This article does not have one shred of proof to back up its insinuations!!!
This article may comfort some Albanian expansionists, or give them a a reason to pursue hegemony over the Serbs in Kosovo, but it will treated as a laughingstock in Serbia and not worth the paper it is printed on.
I am not surprised that there are not more "Serbian" voices like Vladimir's. Some Albanians would portray that objectivesness as Serbian revisionism, but like the "Simpleton," I too am not duped to be a self loathing Serb, on a mission to amputate my land.
Contrary to Vladimir's claims that Serbs are self loathing or guilt ridden, I say we are a proud race, with a glorious history that has served as a European example of peace, democracy and justice.
Joe, you may respect the Albanians but you have little to no respect for Serbs as is displayed in your comments, so your one good deed is cancelled out by the other and places you in a precarious position to frame any moral judegement.
On a second note, and the reason for me writing this comment before I saw Joe's comment, the Arsenijevic article is very telling and very blunt. I can't disagree with most of what was said, though I draw attention to the final part in which many Serb youths show a surprisingly display of discrimination against non-Serbs. I'm curious to know what percentage of Albanian students of equal age show parallel levels of contempt towards Serbs and other non-Albanians. I say this not to throw off blame on one side and place it on another, but rather because both communities have been affected by war, violence, and social upheaval, and both sides tenaciously cling to ethnic myths of superiority that are seemingly based off of downgrading and belitting the other. The article speaks of a general Serb contempt for Albanians, but how many Albanians were raised to show intolerance towards Serbs?
To Teni et al. Try and understand that K.Albanians are living in Serbia through choice. Remember that Kosovo was a part of Serbia during the days when it was part of Jugoslavia.
You are simply trying to justify your aggression against Serbia and your designs on Kosovo by inflating and perpetuating the hatred of Albanians against their fellow Serb citizens. A far more successful solution to the plight of Serbs & Albanians would be to cooperate rather than insist on creating division. It's naive to assume that a change in status or independence will solve your problems.
"the important thing is that you cant make a single setp further than northern Mitrovica.
(Nick, 19. October 2007 17:51)"
well, Nick... if that is it what is really important to you, than you are a really sad person.
but you ought to know that you´re disqualifying yourself either with such a comment.
to Miri: since you do not know me personally, it is quite immature to write something like that about me.
you are as well, disqualifying yourself, the only difference to Nick is that he is not getting "personal".
to your information, I am neither arrogant nor do I think bad of avergae Albanians. but that doesn´t count for you.
and last but not least, Joe, why don´t you admit being an Albanian? I mean, if Albanians are so proud like Miri just wrote, why are some of them here pretending to be non-albanians? ( like predictor did in his first comment here ) do you really believe that someone not being from southern Serbia really would write in that self-disqualifying way?
you are simply not credible!
you could name yourself Mortimer and I would not believe you to be english, you could name yourself Günter and again, you wouldn´t be credible as being a German...
it is so cheesy to see on and on those ineffectual attempts to deceive others here...you won´t get away with it.
and by getting personal on that low level won´t help you either!
so, please get over with that. it is no wonder that it is mostly you who are complaining about censorship...and now I understand that it must be very low-leveled, what the B92-guys censor here...if your comments are not getting posted.
You know Jovan,
We Albanians are a proud people, sometimes too proud. Because we are not you negroes we don't want to live under your terms, and calling us your citizens doesn't make it right. You probably read the article with a smile in your face that's because you are one of those described by the author.
Well if you insist I will tell you with pleasure that I am an Albanian paraphrasing John F. Kennedy's famous saying in Berlin "Ich bin a Berliner".
Actuelly as most people know on this site I am a Hungarian American. But out of respect, sympathy and admiration for the K-Albanians I now solemnly profess I AM AN ALBANIAN! Since there are about 14 million Hungarians in and around Hungary, who feel just like me you can count them also as Albanians. Together with the 6 million Albanians in the Balkans that make a total of 20 million Albanians. In the future I can also sign my comments by "Joe the Albanian". It is like a badge of honor.
I was commenting on the first draft of this article which had a different title and contained only the last part of the existing artcile.
On the other hand, i like the idea of the coference, so long as its brief and decisive.
As for whether independence will come soon or not, so what if it takes another few months, the important thing is that you cant make a single setp further than northern Mitrovica.
I find this segement to be not worth reading, bringing up the past is going to solve the problems that are now. I read about the rapes, the killings the torture so forth was this not done on both sides? No one side is without guilt Teni and his crew preach about independence and how will independence be? Let me see a liter of fuel is more that 1 euro a litter of oil 3 euros, buk or bread 75 cents i remember it being 20 cents the closer you think independence is coming the worst things will get for those who have nothing. No one looks at that only jumping up and down independence will when independence hits you in the face and reality sets in the hand is going to be out for help. You ask for independence now you have it. It is like feeding a baby a steak and telling it to eat. I said this once and i will say it now, the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence the sun cast a false shadow when kosovo is going. I cannot wait to here teni, afrim, ida point fingers blame nato, unmik and soon Eu for all the problems.
Arsenijevic's article got me thinking some more, and I appreciate being able to read it. The crux of the matter is this, and let's not mince words: Albanians are essentially regarded as the "niggers" of the Balkans by most other groups. This is essentially what the article was says, and this is was essentially drives the level of intolerance and hatred generated against them by their surrounding neighbors. The article also raised a good point on the role of collective denial on part of the Serb people, both in regards to the war in Kosovo and in thinking that nothing can ever come out of anything created by, or led by, an Albanian. These prejudices, coupled with the idea that not only are Albanians living in Kosovo, they're overpopulating the area and kicking "us", the Serbs, out of our ancestral homeland. So it's bad enough that Albanians are regarded as stupid and backward, but that they are "stealing" our land makes it even worse. This was essentially what the article was trying to say is the collective mentality of Serbs today.
One problem I have with the article is that there is no causal link between this notion of deep seated prejudice and the human agency that perpetuates it. In other words, we have to ask ourselves why, out of all the other people in the Balkans, are the Albanians singled out as the scapegoat? I mean there's rivalry between Serbs and Croats, but Albanians are seen to be beneath both. What would warrant such animosity? Are Serbs genetically born with a hatred of Albanians? This is similar to asking if Turks are genetically built to deny the Armenian Genocide.
We cannot debunk an historical myth of victimhood on behalf of the Serbs by ascribing victimhood to the Albanians. Had 1999 until now produced no revenge attacks, no Orthodox churches destroyed, no Serb houses burned, and no Serb people killed, Serbs would have every obligation to eat their prejudicial words and hang their heads in shame. However, a key part of the article also says that now the levels of discrimination and wanton racism being being directed towards Serbs by Albanians. We might chalk it up to pent up rage and frustration and a sense of seeking revenge on one's former masters, but how do we explain acts of violence against women, children, priests, and innocent people all around? We cannot ignore these.
Knowing full well the views and opinions I have held on this site, I feel Arsenijevic's article was excellent in highlighting attitudinal perceptions of the "other" in the Balkans. Yet at the same time, I feel we need to conclude that a good portion of this deep seated prejudice and mistrust are stemmed from direct experience of violence and conflict. Serbs don't hate the Albanians just because they're different from them and that they breed a lot. They base their prejudices on distinct memories of intimidation, threats to one's own livelihood, and visible acts of violence that have taken place since 1999. In other words, mutual mistrust and intolerance is primarily based on mutual acts of discrimination and intimidation, something the article overlooks.
I'd be curious to hear from our more moderate Albanians like Teni, Nikshala, or Village-Bey on what they think of this. I think that if both sides get to the heart of the matter of why their groups collectively think they way they do about the other, we might start the long road to reconciliation and a better life for both peoples.
", but rather because both communities have been affected by war, violence, and social upheaval, and both sides tenaciously cling to ethnic myths of superiority that are seemingly based off of downgrading and belitting the other."
Our Albanian youth has a parent, brother, sister, or a friend dead. Your Serbian youth only heard bombs drop on Serbia --- that's all. You can't claim that war conditions have affected Serbia (besides economically) whereas this 100 year oppression followed by a war has not completely screwed up the people but changed our society.
Since Serbian teenagers have been leaving a cozy life I'd expect them to be better leaders and less followers. Serbian teenagers should be much more tolerant..but they aren't.
I guess the US will invite the Conference the UK, France, Germany,Russia and Italy and out vote Russia 5-1. When in reality it should be the major countries, US, EU, Russia, China, India and Congo.
This is so ridiculous-the majority wants to give the Albanians everything they want and Serbia nothing. Nothing should be done with just a majority vote.
mike,
i think you missed the part where it says albanians have a
different language, different culture thus being treated differently, and considering serbs had interests in kosovo and so did albanians, made the situation slightly different than say serbs and croats
While I read your comments I can't help but realize that most of you have never been, are, and probably will never go in Kosova, nor do you have any relatives or friends who live there. I can personally name right now, without a list, more than 150 people, either family or friends who live in Kosova, and that makes me smile and ignore your comments half-way.
Today Kosova is populated by Albanians, and that was the same 1300 years ago, and will be the same 1300 years later. It's all about destiny and no one can do anything to change that.
Kosovo Has never been Province of Serbia...it actually been province of Yugoslavia like many Republics. SO Kosovo is the Last Remaining Problem of Yugoslavia...not Serbia....serbia never had Provinces...Good luck with Kosovo.
Do the Serbs know what UN is in Kosovo for. UN came to Kosovo to protect the people of Kosovo from Serbia's aggression and to make sure that it will never happen.
my dear Joe, no matter where you are from, but...for my personal taste, you are talking a little bit too light-minded and careless about nationality and honor ...
poeple who are quoting J.F.K are a little bit strange anyway, given that he had connections with the mafia and those mafia-organisations forced the members of tradeunions to vote for Kennedy.
if someone like this person is somebody you prefer to quote - it´s your decision.
but that also shows your maturity in regard to politics and of course your obviously limited general knowledge.
that´s something you can be prould of, of course, no matter who or what you prefer to be today, or tomorrow.
B-92
I do not know why my comments don't get published but i think i have a fair good idea.
Anyway good luck with your monologue. you surely are not interested in hearing what we have to say.
These Americans will stop at nothing in order to set up a Nato base. I guess their think tank really believes that Kosovo is the strategic corner for their future objectives. I wonder which countries would be participating in this conference. I bet it would be the ones the US can force or blackmail into voting their direction. For certain you won't see countries like India, China, or anyone non- aligned with the US.
YOUR FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE ! The ride is over ,The only ones that will be affected is people of Kosovo ,Albanians ,Serbians and other minorities in Kosovo how have to live together. If they ever learn to respect each other and work together for the common good and peace. Then they will have a good future. They have to reject the pressure of outside interference how would love nothing better then to destablise Kosovo and push there self interest agendas. Make some kind of pretext to interfere and forward there agenda of hate ,division ,indifference to the suffering of all the people of Kosovo.
I took the time to read this Arsenijevic article and it definitely raises a number of valid points on the relations of the people in the Balkans, though the way it's written shows that it cannot be quoted for fact, rather it is just an opinion. I doubt that some of the things he said apply to all Serbs. You can't tell me that all Serbs have such perceptions of the Albanians. On the other hand just looking at the comments posted by the Serbs and the Albanians here, neither side will admit to their faults and both sides will forever accuse each other. Then again, from my personal experience, this type of commentary is mostly common among nationalists, I'd like to know what the average people think.
now the selfproclaimed superpower hasn´t just a problem with russian veto within un, but also with the veto of every single eu-member in the sphere of foreign policy.
how about washington negotiating just with the pristinars about indiependence, just like the last 8 years.
it stays the same, usa, uk, superpower albania and the virgin islands want an indiependent kosovo.
Jovan, I just don't understand why you Serbs retreat to belittling and insulting other members when you have nothing else to say. Is this how the youth is raised and taught in Serbia?
So that guy (non albanian) wrote that article and you insult another member by saying, "shows your maturity in regard to politics and of course your obviously limited general knowledge."
Yet at the same time, I feel we need to conclude that a good portion of this deep seated prejudice and mistrust are stemmed from direct experience of violence and conflict. Serbs don't base their prejudices on distinct memories of intimidation, threats to one's own livelihood, and visible acts of violence that have taken place since 1999. In other words, mutual mistrust and intolerance is primarily based on mutual acts of discrimination and intimidation, something the article overlooks.
Joe the albanian,
Congo was a sarchastic comment. The whole point is that the US would fix the conference with a mojority who would vote in there favour.
and what about all the non-Albanians who have suffered been raped, mutilated, tortured (mentally & physically), killed and ethnically cleansed at the hands of the mafiocracy that has a strangle hold over the ordinary Serbian (irrespective of ethnicity) citizens in this Serbian province?
It is not just in the last years that they have been suffering as you are only too aware.
I don't now how many of the Serbs here took the trouble to read Arsenijevic's article, but those that did had some pretty vitriolic remarks about it. That simply drives home the point that Kosova can never, ever be anything but an independent state because most Albanians know from experience that what Arsenijevic was saying is absolutely right, while the Serbs are in denial about it. Princip & company can go on and on as much as they like about Serbia being tolerant, democratic etc, but they should remember that if they suffered under Milosevi, the K-Albanians suffered 1000 times worse. After all I don't remember the VJ killing, raping, burning and plundering any Serb villages or towns. So given this situation how can one even speak of reconciliation between Serbia and Kosova and them living happily together ever after? That is just about the greatest nonsense anyone can think of and everybody knows it. So Jeremic and his ilk can ask for extensions of talks and what not but even if they do get an extension they will never convince K-Albanians that they have a future in Serbia. Having autonomy and being demilitarized under Serb rule for the Kosovars basically amounts to living under the same roof with the person who beat, tortured and killed you and depending on that person's goodwill for your wellbeing.
So Mr. Kostunica and crew want to contiue sitting and talking while the people of Kosova suffer the consequences of lack of status.
I say NO and everyone should say NO to a continuation of talks with Serbia.
Every effort by the Kosovar delegation to be constructive up to this point has been used by weak EU politicians to justify a postponement of status by claiming that progress is beeing made because the parties are "smiling at each other"
Such hypochrisy.
Our political leaders as well are failing to reflect the level of public anger for the delays in Kosovo, and this anger will sooner or later boil over.
What does it really take for the EU to realize that we do not care what Serbia thinks and we do not care what Russia thinks and finally we do not want to become a testing ground for all types of experiments, the latest beeing "EU unity in foreign policy"
So long as Kosova is linked to Serbia in whatever form, there WILL be conflict and there WILL be trouble.
However, i am confident that after December 10th, the people of Kosova will say ENOUGH and declare independence.
Here is the path.
http://www.signandsight.
com/features/1582.html
Princip: Before answering your point I invite you to read Zeka's comment that proves my point better than I ever could. And I also want to ask you what exactly you mean by "Serbian citizens irrespective of ethnicity?" You surely cannot mean K-Albanians because they are no longer citizens of Serbia. They were once upon a time citizens of Yugoslavia, that is true.
As for what you say I have repeatedly said that what happened to the Serbs after the war was shameful and unacceptable. But although I detest playing the numbers game don't forget that around 12000 K-Albanians died, approximately 100 000 houses burned and God knows how many were raped, tortured, arrested, beaten etc and more than 1 million were ethnically cleansed. (And no it was not because of the bombing.)And that was all on top of what Milosevic had done before the war started. Does it seem a normal state of affairs to you to have 600 000 thousand K-Albanians out of 2 million arrested for "informative talks", in 7 years? While these figures do in no way justify what happened to the Serbs they do explain why it happened. And I am afraid that by insisting that Kosova stay part of Serbia you are simply laying the ground for more of the same in years to come. From both sides.
and so republica srpska in bosnia should have full indepence right after and the serbs in croatia should also have wide autonomy are independence also bottom line
It would be interesting to see how Serbia and Russia would react to such a proposal if one were indeed on the table. Given all the boasting about enjoying the support of most of the world , Serbia should not have a problem with it. If they do not agree on the other hand, it would show what we have been saying all along: that most countries support Kosova's independence and the only thing standing in its way is a Russian veto. Simple.
I am just wondering why some of your messages don't get suppressed. You show a lot of disrespect and arrogance toward the K-Albanians. As a none Albanian reading your messages I have even more understanding and sympathy for them. You seem to forget that the colonialist era is over a long time ago.
Teni, your version of events is so twisted and unrealistic it's almost funny, even if it is deadly serious. Perpetuating these exaggerations does noone any good.
So now more tricks by the americans to try to bypass the UNSC and a veto in any way they can. Do they think Serbs and Russians are stupid? How many times does Russia have to tell them 'no'? Let me make it clear to them, or anyone who is listening, the UN Security Council is the only legal means to change borders, and it shall not be bypassed. If you choose the ignore the UNSC, then you will have world chaos on your hands, with every minority group in the world using the 'Kosovo precedent' as justification for terrorism and separatism.
You know Jovan,
We Albanians are a proud people, sometimes too proud. Because we are not you negroes we don't want to live under your terms, and calling us your citizens doesn't make it right. You probably read the article with a smile in your face that's because you are one of those described by the author.
Do the Serbs know what UN is in Kosovo for. UN came to Kosovo to protect the people of Kosovo from Serbia's aggression and to make sure that it will never happen.
the status is what is is and hopefully for everyone citizens benefit in Serbia everyone will realise the state they are in and start the reconcilation to a better Serbia for all.
southern states could ask for independence like california and miami to name a few since mexicnas are absolute majority and Miami are Cubans same with Texas so they could ask for wide autonomy are independence
I was commenting on the first draft of this article which had a different title and contained only the last part of the existing artcile.
On the other hand, i like the idea of the coference, so long as its brief and decisive.
As for whether independence will come soon or not, so what if it takes another few months, the important thing is that you cant make a single setp further than northern Mitrovica.
", but rather because both communities have been affected by war, violence, and social upheaval, and both sides tenaciously cling to ethnic myths of superiority that are seemingly based off of downgrading and belitting the other."
Our Albanian youth has a parent, brother, sister, or a friend dead. Your Serbian youth only heard bombs drop on Serbia --- that's all. You can't claim that war conditions have affected Serbia (besides economically) whereas this 100 year oppression followed by a war has not completely screwed up the people but changed our society.
Since Serbian teenagers have been leaving a cozy life I'd expect them to be better leaders and less followers. Serbian teenagers should be much more tolerant..but they aren't.
Well if you insist I will tell you with pleasure that I am an Albanian paraphrasing John F. Kennedy's famous saying in Berlin "Ich bin a Berliner".
Actuelly as most people know on this site I am a Hungarian American. But out of respect, sympathy and admiration for the K-Albanians I now solemnly profess I AM AN ALBANIAN! Since there are about 14 million Hungarians in and around Hungary, who feel just like me you can count them also as Albanians. Together with the 6 million Albanians in the Balkans that make a total of 20 million Albanians. In the future I can also sign my comments by "Joe the Albanian". It is like a badge of honor.
"he diplomats added that while France said the idea should be considered, Paris also believes it could only be organized, "in a period of time measuring many months," after December 10. "
could it be that the above posted excerpt from the article is the reason for that quite emotional commenting by teni, Nick etc. ?
you are being duped, and if you do not get it by now, you certainly will in the future.
what is so sad about it, it is your own fault, that things are not progressing...
the french say "many months" ...
I say never, because I am honest to you.
signandsight is well known for putting together articles found across the web in a quie nonreflective way...
this one is so openly anti-serbian that I really doubt that this man has written it only out of a journalistic impulse, but that´s another topic.
if you Albanians see yourself as the negroes of the balkans, so be it, the Serbs here are constantly and continiously trying to explain to you that you are serbian CITIZENS as well, but if you just wish to wind yourself in self-pity... that is your choice.
but it won´t change the fact, that you have no right whatsoever to take away serbian territory.
it simply is not yours alone.
it belongst to the whole of Serbia and that is definitely something you will learn in the future, otherwise you are only shooting yourself into the feet.
"In fact many citizens – our young particularly – disappointed by all sides, seem to have decided that they don't believe in anything any more, like that simpleton bathing in the lake."
Vladimir portrays those who are not naive as simpletons. I wonder if this "simpleton", was simple when he refused to believe the lies fabricated by the US State department that soccer fields were being used as giant cemeteries in KiM. A day never went by without James Reubin exaggerated true events on the ground. He and Clinton should have been called to give evidence during Milosevic's trial. He would have made quick work of them.
This, self loathing "Serb," Vladimir is clearly on someone's payroll to discredit Serbs, referring to his own people as way as simpletons or barbarians, all the while constructing an article completely based on insinuation and exaggeration. This article does not have one shred of proof to back up its insinuations!!!
This article may comfort some Albanian expansionists, or give them a a reason to pursue hegemony over the Serbs in Kosovo, but it will treated as a laughingstock in Serbia and not worth the paper it is printed on.
I am not surprised that there are not more "Serbian" voices like Vladimir's. Some Albanians would portray that objectivesness as Serbian revisionism, but like the "Simpleton," I too am not duped to be a self loathing Serb, on a mission to amputate my land.
Contrary to Vladimir's claims that Serbs are self loathing or guilt ridden, I say we are a proud race, with a glorious history that has served as a European example of peace, democracy and justice.
Joe, you may respect the Albanians but you have little to no respect for Serbs as is displayed in your comments, so your one good deed is cancelled out by the other and places you in a precarious position to frame any moral judegement.
On a second note, and the reason for me writing this comment before I saw Joe's comment, the Arsenijevic article is very telling and very blunt. I can't disagree with most of what was said, though I draw attention to the final part in which many Serb youths show a surprisingly display of discrimination against non-Serbs. I'm curious to know what percentage of Albanian students of equal age show parallel levels of contempt towards Serbs and other non-Albanians. I say this not to throw off blame on one side and place it on another, but rather because both communities have been affected by war, violence, and social upheaval, and both sides tenaciously cling to ethnic myths of superiority that are seemingly based off of downgrading and belitting the other. The article speaks of a general Serb contempt for Albanians, but how many Albanians were raised to show intolerance towards Serbs?
I think Teni's "numbers game" post illustrates the problem quite well. The problem isn't what the Serbs did to the Albanians, its what the Albanians THINK the Serbs did to them.
Teni claims that 12,000 Kosovo-Albanians were killed by the Serbs, and she isn't the first Albanian I've heard saying that.
There is no way that 12,000 Albanians were killed. In August 2000 the Hague Tribunal announced that it had exhumed 2,788 bodies in Kosovo, based on 4,400 unique reports of killings (and not all of those people were Albanians).
In June 2000 the Red Cross reported that 3,368 civilians (2,500 Albanians, 400 Serbs, and 100 Roma) were still missing from the Kosovo war.
The combined total of confirmed dead and missing on all sides has never been more than 6,156. There is no way that 12,000 Albanians could have been killed, much less been victims of war crimes.
The majority of the bodies found in Kosovo were not even victims of war crimes. KFOR told Agence France Presse in July of 1999 that out of the 2,150 bodies that had been discovered up to that point only about 850 were thought to be victims of war crimes.
According information coming out of the Hague Tribunal (specifically Patrick Ball's testimony at the Milutinovic trial last year), the most recent combined total of dead and missing from the Kosovo war is about 4,200 people.
The claim of a million people ethnically cleansed is similarly absurd. There were never even a million refugees, much less one million victims of ethnic cleansing.
The Albanians are acting the way they are because they BELIEVE that they suffered a far worse fate than they actually did.
I'm sure the war wasn't fun, and undoubtedly people were victimized and did suffer, but it was hardly the modern-day Holocaust that they seem to think it was.
The treatment that they've doled out to the Serbs and Roma, and the scale of ethnically motivated crimes committed by Albanians over the last eight years has been equal to if not worse than what the Milosevic regime did to them.
We really have reached (if not gone past) the point of moral equivalance between the Serbs and the Albanians.
This notion of Albanian victimhood is laughable when we're in a situation where 75% of Kosovo's non-Albanian population is either a refugee living in Serbia-proper or an internally displaced person in Kosovo.
From the end of the war until the end of 2003, 847 Kosovo-Serbs were killed and another 1,154 went missing. Given that Serbs were only about 10% of Kosovo's population to begin with -- the scale of the brutality suffered by the Kosovo-Serb population was far worse than anything suffered by the Albanians under Milosevic.
The Albanians can not point the finger at Miloseivc and claim a "moral right" to independence, because they have more than gotten even with the Serbs. What ever debt Serbia owed to the Albanians for the crimes of Milosevic's regime it has been paid back with interest with the blood of the Kosovo Serbs.
I find this segement to be not worth reading, bringing up the past is going to solve the problems that are now. I read about the rapes, the killings the torture so forth was this not done on both sides? No one side is without guilt Teni and his crew preach about independence and how will independence be? Let me see a liter of fuel is more that 1 euro a litter of oil 3 euros, buk or bread 75 cents i remember it being 20 cents the closer you think independence is coming the worst things will get for those who have nothing. No one looks at that only jumping up and down independence will when independence hits you in the face and reality sets in the hand is going to be out for help. You ask for independence now you have it. It is like feeding a baby a steak and telling it to eat. I said this once and i will say it now, the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence the sun cast a false shadow when kosovo is going. I cannot wait to here teni, afrim, ida point fingers blame nato, unmik and soon Eu for all the problems.
To Teni et al. Try and understand that K.Albanians are living in Serbia through choice. Remember that Kosovo was a part of Serbia during the days when it was part of Jugoslavia.
You are simply trying to justify your aggression against Serbia and your designs on Kosovo by inflating and perpetuating the hatred of Albanians against their fellow Serb citizens. A far more successful solution to the plight of Serbs & Albanians would be to cooperate rather than insist on creating division. It's naive to assume that a change in status or independence will solve your problems.
Kosovo albanians ARE still citizens of Serbia, the several thousands albanians from Kosovo that apply for serb passport clearly shows that they are willing to accept serbian citizenship.
However all illegal immigrants and their children from the 70:s and 80:s from albania might not qualify for serbian citizenship.
This desperate act of the US shows that they know that their promises to the Kosovo albanians can not be honored if the Russians and chinese put an end to all this with their vetos, therefore they try to make up some new rules for "this unique case Kosovo is" However they are naive if they think that the Russians will allow these new rules. Its the same as if you are losing in poker, you just can't make up some new rules just before showdown that a pair of threes will beat a flush, regardless if that is what you are having on your hand at that moment... The opponentw would never accept that, just the same in international politics.
Arsenijevic's article got me thinking some more, and I appreciate being able to read it. The crux of the matter is this, and let's not mince words: Albanians are essentially regarded as the "niggers" of the Balkans by most other groups. This is essentially what the article was says, and this is was essentially drives the level of intolerance and hatred generated against them by their surrounding neighbors. The article also raised a good point on the role of collective denial on part of the Serb people, both in regards to the war in Kosovo and in thinking that nothing can ever come out of anything created by, or led by, an Albanian. These prejudices, coupled with the idea that not only are Albanians living in Kosovo, they're overpopulating the area and kicking "us", the Serbs, out of our ancestral homeland. So it's bad enough that Albanians are regarded as stupid and backward, but that they are "stealing" our land makes it even worse. This was essentially what the article was trying to say is the collective mentality of Serbs today.
One problem I have with the article is that there is no causal link between this notion of deep seated prejudice and the human agency that perpetuates it. In other words, we have to ask ourselves why, out of all the other people in the Balkans, are the Albanians singled out as the scapegoat? I mean there's rivalry between Serbs and Croats, but Albanians are seen to be beneath both. What would warrant such animosity? Are Serbs genetically born with a hatred of Albanians? This is similar to asking if Turks are genetically built to deny the Armenian Genocide.
We cannot debunk an historical myth of victimhood on behalf of the Serbs by ascribing victimhood to the Albanians. Had 1999 until now produced no revenge attacks, no Orthodox churches destroyed, no Serb houses burned, and no Serb people killed, Serbs would have every obligation to eat their prejudicial words and hang their heads in shame. However, a key part of the article also says that now the levels of discrimination and wanton racism being being directed towards Serbs by Albanians. We might chalk it up to pent up rage and frustration and a sense of seeking revenge on one's former masters, but how do we explain acts of violence against women, children, priests, and innocent people all around? We cannot ignore these.
Knowing full well the views and opinions I have held on this site, I feel Arsenijevic's article was excellent in highlighting attitudinal perceptions of the "other" in the Balkans. Yet at the same time, I feel we need to conclude that a good portion of this deep seated prejudice and mistrust are stemmed from direct experience of violence and conflict. Serbs don't hate the Albanians just because they're different from them and that they breed a lot. They base their prejudices on distinct memories of intimidation, threats to one's own livelihood, and visible acts of violence that have taken place since 1999. In other words, mutual mistrust and intolerance is primarily based on mutual acts of discrimination and intimidation, something the article overlooks.
I'd be curious to hear from our more moderate Albanians like Teni, Nikshala, or Village-Bey on what they think of this. I think that if both sides get to the heart of the matter of why their groups collectively think they way they do about the other, we might start the long road to reconciliation and a better life for both peoples.
mike,
i think you missed the part where it says albanians have a
different language, different culture thus being treated differently, and considering serbs had interests in kosovo and so did albanians, made the situation slightly different than say serbs and croats
While I read your comments I can't help but realize that most of you have never been, are, and probably will never go in Kosova, nor do you have any relatives or friends who live there. I can personally name right now, without a list, more than 150 people, either family or friends who live in Kosova, and that makes me smile and ignore your comments half-way.
Today Kosova is populated by Albanians, and that was the same 1300 years ago, and will be the same 1300 years later. It's all about destiny and no one can do anything to change that.
Kosovo Has never been Province of Serbia...it actually been province of Yugoslavia like many Republics. SO Kosovo is the Last Remaining Problem of Yugoslavia...not Serbia....serbia never had Provinces...Good luck with Kosovo.
B-92
I do not know why my comments don't get published but i think i have a fair good idea.
Anyway good luck with your monologue. you surely are not interested in hearing what we have to say.
Jovan, I just don't understand why you Serbs retreat to belittling and insulting other members when you have nothing else to say. Is this how the youth is raised and taught in Serbia?
So that guy (non albanian) wrote that article and you insult another member by saying, "shows your maturity in regard to politics and of course your obviously limited general knowledge."
Serbian citizens irrespective of ethnicity?" You surely cannot mean K-Albanians because they are no longer citizens of Serbia. They were once upon a time citizens of Yugoslavia, that is true.
(teni, 19. October 2007 15:52)
Teni- Just a simple question. Who are they citizens of? Surely not Kosovo. And if they are where was I when it became a country. And as for them being Yugoslavian citizens once upon a time, when Yugo split up, and Kosovo fell under Serbia you became Serbian citizens. You may not like it but thats the way it is. You can complain all you want, you can claim independence all you want, reality is that you are Serbian Citizens, you don't like that you can move to any country you want just so you don't have Serbian Citizenship. But to have Kosovo citizenship as you want will never happen and isn't logical. Any sain person can understand that.
When the US can get themselves straightened out, then they should consider talking about KosovO. It's completely irrelevant that the US AMbassador to NATO made the ridiculous remarks that she did - another piece of evidence that NATO is nothing but a puppet of the US (like we didn't know that already).
Amazing when something works for you, keep the VETO, when it doesn't, pull it out.
Furthermore, the date has changed once again - this only proves that nothing will happen.
"the important thing is that you cant make a single setp further than northern Mitrovica.
(Nick, 19. October 2007 17:51)"
well, Nick... if that is it what is really important to you, than you are a really sad person.
but you ought to know that you´re disqualifying yourself either with such a comment.
to Miri: since you do not know me personally, it is quite immature to write something like that about me.
you are as well, disqualifying yourself, the only difference to Nick is that he is not getting "personal".
to your information, I am neither arrogant nor do I think bad of avergae Albanians. but that doesn´t count for you.
and last but not least, Joe, why don´t you admit being an Albanian? I mean, if Albanians are so proud like Miri just wrote, why are some of them here pretending to be non-albanians? ( like predictor did in his first comment here ) do you really believe that someone not being from southern Serbia really would write in that self-disqualifying way?
you are simply not credible!
you could name yourself Mortimer and I would not believe you to be english, you could name yourself Günter and again, you wouldn´t be credible as being a German...
it is so cheesy to see on and on those ineffectual attempts to deceive others here...you won´t get away with it.
and by getting personal on that low level won´t help you either!
so, please get over with that. it is no wonder that it is mostly you who are complaining about censorship...and now I understand that it must be very low-leveled, what the B92-guys censor here...if your comments are not getting posted.
This is so ridiculous-the majority wants to give the Albanians everything they want and Serbia nothing. Nothing should be done with just a majority vote.
I guess the US will invite the Conference the UK, France, Germany,Russia and Italy and out vote Russia 5-1. When in reality it should be the major countries, US, EU, Russia, China, India and Congo.
These Americans will stop at nothing in order to set up a Nato base. I guess their think tank really believes that Kosovo is the strategic corner for their future objectives. I wonder which countries would be participating in this conference. I bet it would be the ones the US can force or blackmail into voting their direction. For certain you won't see countries like India, China, or anyone non- aligned with the US.
Yet at the same time, I feel we need to conclude that a good portion of this deep seated prejudice and mistrust are stemmed from direct experience of violence and conflict. Serbs don't base their prejudices on distinct memories of intimidation, threats to one's own livelihood, and visible acts of violence that have taken place since 1999. In other words, mutual mistrust and intolerance is primarily based on mutual acts of discrimination and intimidation, something the article overlooks.
YOUR FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE ! The ride is over ,The only ones that will be affected is people of Kosovo ,Albanians ,Serbians and other minorities in Kosovo how have to live together. If they ever learn to respect each other and work together for the common good and peace. Then they will have a good future. They have to reject the pressure of outside interference how would love nothing better then to destablise Kosovo and push there self interest agendas. Make some kind of pretext to interfere and forward there agenda of hate ,division ,indifference to the suffering of all the people of Kosovo.
I took the time to read this Arsenijevic article and it definitely raises a number of valid points on the relations of the people in the Balkans, though the way it's written shows that it cannot be quoted for fact, rather it is just an opinion. I doubt that some of the things he said apply to all Serbs. You can't tell me that all Serbs have such perceptions of the Albanians. On the other hand just looking at the comments posted by the Serbs and the Albanians here, neither side will admit to their faults and both sides will forever accuse each other. Then again, from my personal experience, this type of commentary is mostly common among nationalists, I'd like to know what the average people think.
my dear Joe, no matter where you are from, but...for my personal taste, you are talking a little bit too light-minded and careless about nationality and honor ...
poeple who are quoting J.F.K are a little bit strange anyway, given that he had connections with the mafia and those mafia-organisations forced the members of tradeunions to vote for Kennedy.
if someone like this person is somebody you prefer to quote - it´s your decision.
but that also shows your maturity in regard to politics and of course your obviously limited general knowledge.
that´s something you can be prould of, of course, no matter who or what you prefer to be today, or tomorrow.
now the selfproclaimed superpower hasn´t just a problem with russian veto within un, but also with the veto of every single eu-member in the sphere of foreign policy.
how about washington negotiating just with the pristinars about indiependence, just like the last 8 years.
it stays the same, usa, uk, superpower albania and the virgin islands want an indiependent kosovo.
Joe the albanian,
Congo was a sarchastic comment. The whole point is that the US would fix the conference with a mojority who would vote in there favour.
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