U.S., Russia clash at UN over Kosovo

So according to Endri, albanians are no way responsible for violence that they caused or might cause, if not granted independence. It's serbs fault, if they're attacked by albanians. Make's sense to anyone?

Endri,

most developed nations do not agree in
"final solution" - this sounds horribly reminiscent of the Nazi's of the second world war. Putin recently did remind everyone about the consequences of Munich in 1938 and your comments suggest that "final solutions" being forced would bring closure when it clearly did not in 1941 let alone now in 2007!

Serbia with the support of Russia is wanting to find a "lasting solution" based on compromise, respect of human rights and international norms and laws.

Who is exactly trying to provoke an Albanian violent reaction? What has this to do with Albania?

With regards the Serbian Albanians they need to accept the state they are in and make the best opportunity for all in Serbia irrespective of ethnicity - you can't sub-divide a nation state because an ethnic minority become a local majority unless of course the state itself agrees - that really would create a huge precedent and rift in international norms and laws. Anyone up for an independent London?

UN SC resolution 1244 is clearly not going to be revoked without a "compromise and lasting" solution" so accept the state your in and in the words of former British PM Blair "conform to it"!

M.Miller, in response to your statement. That is how the WEST referred to the Serbs living in Croatia and Bosnia. CROATIAN SERBS, BOSNIAN SERBS, you never heard of that? Is it disrespectful when you do it to us? So naturally Serbs or anyone else has every right to refer to Albanians living in Serbia as SERBIAN ALBANIANS. They are SERBIAN CITIZENS of ALBANIAN ethnicity.

Keep dreaming Endri, there's no end in sight unless Albanians accept the fact that they're only a minority in Serbia and as such they can only get what other minorities in the world get, no more no less.

You Albanians are amazing. Most of you blew off Peter Sudyka's comments which are DEAD ON. If Kosovo declares unilateral independence, the Kosovo Serbs North of Mitrovica will too, and without UN backing, you have nothing but a partitioned country (CAN YOU SAY CYPRUS???). Like I said, chest-thumping and dreaming can only do so much. What, do you expect, the U.S. to withdraw troops from Iraq and Afghnaistan to "stabalize" the region? How long before the Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats say, "why not us too?" You guys are oblivious to the ramafications this has globally (which is why the U.S. backed off independence talks). But you push your nonsense on trying to persuade others here who are a little brighter than you think with chest-thumping and lavish stories. Face it, the EU will not tolerate violence coming from you guys because you're ticked off. That's not how civilized people behave. So my advice, get use to discourse and politics like everyone else....

Sooner or later Albanians will realise that they only have 2 choices, either to negotiate with Serbia or stay in limbo forever.

Teni, KS, Nikshala, Agim & Albanian camp, what would the Serbs do if Ceku & co. declare independence? Well the real question is what will Pristina do when N-Kosovo declares independence from Pristina? I'll tell you, VS will rush in and secure N-Kosovo, it's declcration will be recognised by Russia & other countries that opposed Kosovo independence. Don't worry about the valley, Serbia (VS) is securing that area as we speak just read past reports. No one wants partition but it will happen involenteraly. Anyway how can Pristina keep the majority in N-Kosovo (Serbs) under Pristina against their own will when they don't want anything to do with Pristina?

M. Miller, when people use the name Kosova, they are being purposely disrespective also. Even the Pristina spokespeople use it's actual name, Kosovo. BTW, if you live in Serbia, you are Serbian, not necessarily a Serb. Not hard to understand, is it?

” he stressed, adding that “most council members agree that negotiations need to end on December 10.”

Kongo included?

However the serbo-russian strategy is quite clear and it is the same low one.
In this case by continually avoiding the final solution,and in the meantime trying to provoke an Albanian violent reaction,therefore putting them on the wrong.We had a clear successful example of this policy during the 2004 riots.
in albania we have a proverb.."Even the river sleeps but the enemy dont",so i guess "someone" is working a lot in the shadow.
Fortunatelly 10 december is real,is near and finally will put an end to this absurd situation.

The only thing that can destabelize the region is rushing this along. This is going to take time and the thing that the UN is afraid of is the K-Albanians taking up arms. There are many things that Pristina needs to work on before the IC even thinks of any form of a solution to the status. One that comes to mind and should be a big prereq. is human rights of non-Albanians. Lets start there and we'll work on the rest of the things on Ban's list. The threat of violence should not be rewarded. Peaceful talks is the key for a solution not the ANA, KLA or whatever terrorist group that my pop up as freedom fighters in Kosovo. Serbia wants a peaceful solution not another war. Lets get these war criminals(Ceku, Hacim Tacim & others) out of the Pristina gov. and elect people that care for the K-Albanians in Nov. So when Nov. 17 comes lets elect a democratic gov. in Pristina not re-elect them again. If the Serbs did it in Serbia than the K-Albanians can do it in Kosovo.

Since both the Russians and Serbs have an interest in instability in Kosova caused by the loss of patience on the side of the Albanians the Russian position, although highly cynical, makes perfect sense. And after all Russia is rather far away from Kosova so it has nothing to lose even from a new conflict there. The Serbs are being rather shortsighted though, because any gains they stand to make would be nullified by a renewal of violence in Kosova. And the K-Serbs and the Valley Albanians would unfortunately be the main victims of such an event.
Fortunately since the US and most of the EU have made their mind up already, and since a more belligerent Russia has already started to cause a more belligerent reaction on the part of the West, I don't think it will come to that. Kosova will declare its independence as Ceku said yesterday and there is absolutely nothing Russia can do to stop it.
And a question to the anti-independence camp here: What can anyone do when independence is declared? Nothing?

Sorry Princip, but I ahve yet to hear the term that you use "Serbian Albanians".
I don't know where you got that from but the only terms that we officially use is/are example: K-A,K-S, K-Roma etc...
You are doing that just to be disrespectful towards others.

"And a question to the anti-independence camp here: What can anyone do when independence is declared? Nothing?"

Kosovo Serbs declare independence and express their desire for reintegration with Serbia perhaps? Since Kosovo will obviously not be recognized by the UNSC, the borders will not be official by any means and the Kosovo Serbs will simply rejoin Serbia, taking the Northern side with them (Russia, China and others will recognize this independence from Kosovo the same way the US and some EU states will).

My point is this: cannot you not see how unilateral declaration of independence will not bring stability to the region? It will not end on Dec 10, that is for sure!

"Fortunately since the US and most of the EU have made their mind up already, and since a more belligerent Russia has already started to cause a more belligerent reaction on the part of the West, I don't think it will come to that."

It's not as black and white as you think. SOME EU states will follow the US in recognizing Kosovo unilaterally, SOME EU states will insist on the Ahtisaari package, while SOME EU states will not recognize Kosovo independence unless it comes from the UNSC.

Can you not see why negotiations are necessary and a common ground must be found?

"My dear Princip why don't you accept in the state that we are in and that is the State of Kosova, because where I am standing I don't see Serbian state any where. "

Because Serbs are just as stubborn as Albanians when it comes to this issue.

Endri

Blaming Serbia for the rising threat of violence form the side of the Kosovo Albanians does not make any sense and cannot be rewarded. They need to be patient and come to an agreement with Serbia.

My dear Princip why don't you accept in the state that we are in and that is the State of Kosova, because where I am standing I don't see Serbian state any where.
Accept the fact that you will never see that movie again, ever.

did those albanian experts writing here ever think of what they are doing here?

I mean... you should just sit back and think.
and keep in mind that 70% of all Albanians in KiM live in the vicinity around Pristina...
so, if there really happened anything like an albanian attack their loss would not only be the north of Kosovo.

Princip:What Milosevic attempted to do in Kosova, and Mladic and Karadzic in BiH were quite reminiscent of the "final solution", BiH more so than Kosova. The same goes for Russia in Chechnya. Tell me where the respect for human rights and international laws and norms was in those cases and then we can talk. How can K-Albanians ever live under Serb sovereignty if your prime minister and president and the whole political establishment continually refer to them as extremists and terrorists and what not? And if you say that they mean the KLA that changes nothing: the KLA was and is supported by the K-Albanians and the KLA are K-Albanians.
But to be frank I think what you guys are doing is venting your frustration at the fact that Kosova is lost, rather than interpreting the facts. Ceku said that come December 10 he will wait for a few days and declare independence. The few days may turn into a week or two at most, but then it will happen. And the fact that he said that shows that that's what our friends in the West agree to. Let's see what you can do about that. We will not have long to wait.

Princip UK says.....you can't sub-divide a nation state because an ethnic minority become a local majority unless of course the state itself agrees - that really would create a huge precedent and rift in international norms and laws.

This is true when reviewing the case of anywhere else, but KosovO. There hasn't been stability since the first invader stepped on Serbian land.

Sooner or later Albanians will realise that they only have 2 choices, either to negotiate with Serbia or stay in limbo forever.
(python, 10. October 2007 15:09)
unfortunatly, those are the only options that you see Python. There are plenty of other options out there that you may not like.
1. Independence under Ahtisaari's plan
2. Independence under new Troika's plan.
3.Unilateral independence.
4. Kosova join Albania (and Serbia cannot do anything about it)
As you see the sky is brighter if you see it without glasses.

village bey,

it´s the Albanians who are threatening, better don´t forget that!

what I wrote, is no threat, but a serious attempt to make clear that the Albanians would only shoot themselves into their own feet, if they started a new conflict!

it would not be necessary to empty the Priština-region at all, I want those poeple to stay, of course!

what I want to say, and you deliberately seem to wish to turn into a "threat", is something completely different: your KLA or ANA-thughs or whatever you wanna call them, would not be able to withstand the serbian army.

you can write rambo-phrases as much as you wish to, but the fact remains in place.

you would end up with lots of refugees in the Priština-area and all because of a bunch of criminals that deliberately want to escalate things in order to maintain their illegal profit from the chaos in KiM.

that is something you obviously do not want to see, or you are simply staying quiet with reason.
one alternative or the other, you are not looking very serious if you do not face the facts.

M. Miller I agree.
Princip and the others finally started to realized that Kosovo is lost for them.

"The North might secede but if that happens it would open the question of Macedonia and Presheva. And even if those are not brought into play what arguments could Serbia or Russia possibly raise against the unification of the rest of Kosova with Albania?"

You see teni, this is why I cannot see the benefit of unilateral independence for anybody, because there is no universal law or guarantee behind it that would prevent Macedonia and Presevo Albanians from breaking away and so forth, and so forth.

The Ahtisaari Plan would at least be better in that it has some guidelines that would indeed make it unique in some way, but tell me, how will unilateral independence not cause a precedent when all it takes is a few countries to recognize it (like Ceku wants it)? All it takes is one state.

"Albanians will never give up on independence and Serbia does not want to give up on Kosova. So you sort it out if you can because we can't."

There's the problem though teni, US wants unilateral, EU wants Ahtisaari and Russia wants mutual agreement, the world cannot come to an agreement and neither can you, so what next? Favor one and not the other? Imagine the consequences of that!

"Naturally a common agreement would be ideal, but it is impossible. "

I am not surprised, given the history between these people in the region. I am idealizing, I know, but I still pray for it, it would be the best for all!

"And one comment on Russia: By saying that Kosova should serve as a precendent Russia is playing with fire. It might get Abkhazia but what about the Caucasus?"

This is exactly my point teni, Caucasus and Balkans have something in common: lots of different ethnics groups, a history of many wars and horrific bloodshed, hatred, and one too many foreign powers meddling in it.

But going back to this issue, here it is in black and white: UNSC sidestepped and 1244 ignored because US didn't want to risk Russian veto in Albania's favor, Russia threatened veto at UNSC in Serbia's favor, so evidently it CANNOT be left for anyone else to decide (although I still personally believe that UNSC is the only legal and safe way), other than the Kosovo Albanians and Serbians. They have been given a great opportunity by the Troika, may they use it to their advantages!

Both sides have to sacrifice something, but neither can be allowed to leave empty-handed, because that cannot bring stability to the region.

Time for violence has passed. Albanians are uneasy yes but no one is even contemplating any violent form of action. Serbia might cherish the thought of a backlash but it’s not going to happen.
Her insistence on a bizarre form of sovereignty over Kosovo is very strange. On their proposal Serbia is prepared to even relinquish border control. It knows too well that Albanians cannot and do not want to be integrated.
Now her sovereignty formula by definition excludes the absolute majority of the population, so the sovereignty rights only cover the territory and Serb minority. According to this all major attributes of sovereignty will be absent and Kosova will be let to its own devices. Theoretically will be a final push for more segregation, separation and maybe score settling.
I would argue that at this stage the threat of violence comes directly from Serbia and her action. It has undertaken a proactive campaign with strategic aims that do not make sense.
It knows full well that she is limiting her chances to have any sort of control on Kosova, be it nominal, and yet is prepared to insist on something which is not feasible. One may wonder why a kind of sovereignty only in name is preferred over Kosovas’ own sovereignty which in turn might bring greater benefits the region and even for Serbia. Indonesia went through the same experience with East Timor and the process was much easier.

Serbia did not suffer the consequences of the Yugoslav wars in its own territory and it is only natural that they should attempt to escape the Yugoslav mess untouched.

To Serbs, maintaining Kosova is a matter of pride and nationalism, something they were told to do back in school when learning about the Heavenly Serb People and Greater Serbia.

No Serb, other than Kosova Serbs actually has a justifiable or concrete interest in Kosova.

Even if Serbia somehow succeeds in formally keeping Kosova in its map (because quite frankly that is all they will be able to do anyways) that alone will not guarantee your access or control over Kosova.

We (Kosova Albanians) live here and the only possible way you are going to keep Kosova is if you send your police and army to occupy it.

Serbia has lost, accept it and get over it.

Village-bey, just a quick reply to your comment on sovereignty: this is one of the main sticking points to Serbia's proposal of Kosovo's autonomy, and something that is untenable. Including land within the confines of a state also means including its people. By that measure, some form of legitimate sovereingty must be felt by the people towards the government, and there can be no connection if said government is essentially disengaged from the people. This is the reason why Belgrade either needs to completely engage the Albanians or let everything go. While I don't condone the violence, and neither do you or Teni, you both gave valid arguments against the conditions of non-sovereign control over Kosovo (at least the Albanian parts) by Belgrade.

M.Miller: Albanians never referred to themselves as Serbian Albanians. In Albania we call them simply Kosovar, because it is implicit that they are Albanians. In fact they always referred to themselves as Albanians, nothing else. At the most you could call them Albanians of Serbia but that nowadays refers only to Valley Albanians, who as you can see prefer Valley to Serbian. Semantics but semantics always mattered in the Balkans. And if Princip is a consistent sort of guy he should shortly start speaking of K-Albanian Serbs.

Oooo, a security council meeting on Kosovo.

What a waste of time. They can all veto each other and nothing would get done.

That message has been received, and it's now time to go ahead with Plan B, the recognition game.

Individual countries will recognize Kosovo's independence, and the security council can save it's vetoes for other issues.

and one more thing, I forgot in addition to my previous answer to village bey:

"Jovan,
I do not usually answer people like you "

that is the reason why your comments do not get the "okay" to be published here: you are not capable of staying serious, but instead you are getting only personal!

so, do not wonder if you´re not being published!

you should first learn to stay focused on the issue instead of trying to provoke others...

hope you got the message.

Funcake, your saying that the Albanians never did a thing to a single Serb in Kosovo. Lets see, revenge attacks on Serbs in 99 to present, the destruction of Serbian religious sites, kidnapings, 2004 riots over fales accusations & no freedom of movement. I think thats more than enough for N-Kosovo to declaire independence from Pristina.

Yes Mike,
That’s why Ischinger and by him I mean EU, constantly insists on getting a detailed explanation of how Serbia proposes to integrate the Albanian population into the state.
The answer might have shocked him, it sure shocked me.
BG surprise reply was that they acknowledge that Albanians will remain hostile to Serbia and they do not have ANY plans to integrate them. This still doesn’t stop BG in wanting Albanians or maybe their shade on the ground to be part of this fictitious construct.
Pathetic excuse if you ask me.

Jovan,
I do not usually answer people like you but I am curious to know what do you mean by that ominous threat?
Are you saying that you are going to empty a dense populated area by all the its inhabitants. I am surprised that your comments get published and mine do not.
No real man should be bragging about what you’re saying.

I mean... you should just sit back and think.
and keep in mind that 70% of all Albanians in KiM live in the vicinity around Pristina...
so, if there really happened anything like an albanian attack their loss would not only be the north of Kosovo.
(Jovan, 10. October 2007 19:28)

Wow so only 30% of Kosovars DONT live in Prishtina. Jovan you sound like a true Kosovar Expert, please do enlighten us with facts from myths.com

No more than 25% (-+2%) live in Prishtina.

"keep in mind that 70% of all Albanians in KiM live in the vicinity around Pristina...

(Jovan, 10. October 2007 19:28)

So only 30% of Kosovars DONT live in Prishtina. Jovan you sound like a true Kosovar Expert, please do enlighten us with facts from myths.com

No more than 25% (-+2%) live in Prishtina."


KS, you should perhaps once again read my post, and maybe then you will understand it.
but, this time I urge you to READ it PROPERLY!

Prnicip

Only in 1990's Serbia and its govt were oblivious to the international law and now they claim that it should be adhered to because hey we woke up and there is international law and of course to mother Russia to this day international law doesn't apply to them in any shape, way or from.

' Most developed nations' the daydreaming goes on and on i see, so Romania, Slovakia, Russia, Greece and..... oh sorry US, UK, France, Germany, Austria, Italy and many more but the latter once are in favor of independence.

Just got in from outside and the British army is on the rampage on raping, massacring and deporting on mass anyone who is not indigenous in London- oh sorry yet again this is what Serbian army JNA did to ethnic Albanians, hence we do not want to stay with you any longer.

No oppression
No discrimination
No going back to 1999
No partition

Independence is coming and nothing you or your mother Russia can do to stop it. Kosovar Serbians will be enjoying President Ahtisaris proposal for the ethnic minorities in Kosova.

Princip...

Not what they said but their actions are the onlys capable to determine Nazis.Actions like ethnic cleansing,mass murder killings and so on...
So im not afraid of words and im convinced that Kosova needs a SOLUTION and this must be the FINAL one,so we will not have other armed wars in the balcans.


Python...

I dont know who is dreaming here,but i can just say that 6mil serbs can't rule 2mil albanians,that behind them have 4mil and 1mil albanians respectively in Albania and Macedonia,these are the facts and the plainly situation on the ground,and Im just trying to be,i dont se anything oneiric in my point of view.

Mr. Giver, the West has never referred K-Albanians as Serb-Albanians for reasons that are well known.
Princip and the other use this term in a mocking and provocative way towards K-Albanians. Even if you are right, the fact that we have exclusively refused to be called like that, it should be enough for you to refrain using this term.

People using this term do very well understand that its an offending term for K-Albanians and that's why they use it. In a way they accept themselves what "Serb" means for Albanians.

How comes nobody is saying nothing about Putin-Sarkozy meeting.
Mr Sarkozy said: A way will be found not to humiliate Russia over Kosovo essue.

Peter: I think your comments make a lot of sense and they are very probable scenarios. But they could have consequences that will not be as negative on the Albanians as you might think.
The North might secede but if that happens it would open the question of Macedonia and Presheva. And even if those are not brought into play what arguments could Serbia or Russia possibly raise against the unification of the rest of Kosova with Albania? And besides forget about autonomy for the few thousand Serbs that would be left in Kosova if that happened.
And as long as Kosova is recognized by some in the EU for the time being it will do. The important thing is that Kosova is independent of Serbia, the rest will come with time. We do have powerful friends you know.
Naturally a common agreement would be ideal, but it is impossible. Albanians will never give up on independence and Serbia does not want to give up on Kosova. So you sort it out if you can because we can't. Anyway one thing that the EU might do is make Serbias accession conditional on recognition of Kosova. A vote against accession is just as valid for Serbia as for Kosova. And 10 - 20 years from now recognition of Kosova's independence might not be as impossible as it seems now. For us it is worth the price.
And one comment on Russia: By saying that Kosova should serve as a precendent Russia is playing with fire. It might get Abkhazia but what about the Caucasus?

Delije - Russia, Serbia and the others not recognizing Kosovo's independence, but recognizing N-Kosovo's independence, would form a precedent.

See, Kosovo is NOT considered a precedent because there was the humanitarian NATO bombing to stop the killings of civilian Albanians.

But that doesn't work for Northern Kosovo, because Pristina never launched an ethnic cleansing crackdown like Milosevic did.

That's why, other areas in the world, that don't have the ethnic cleansing campain excuse, will also declare independence, and they will want recognition, and Russia with Serbia and the others CANNOT deny them recognition, because of the precedent that they set in Northern Kosovo.

On the other hand, the West can deny Northern Kosovo and the others recognition, because they were never the target of a brutal mass atrocity scenario like the one launched by Milosevic.

And when Presevo Valley, and Western Macedonia and the Albanians in Ulcijn, Montenegro declare their independence, Russia and Serbia will have to recognize their independence...because faced with the Northern Kosovo precedent, their hands would be tied.

That's why, the NATO bombing against Milosevic's policies make Kosovo a unique scenario, while a declaration of independence by Northern Kosovo would set a precedent that would force Russia, Serbia and the non-recognizers of Kosovo to come under a mountain of double-standards.

Giver,

Call them S/Albanians.

(CAN YOU SAY CYPRUS???).--tomislav

Yes we can say Cyprus. Can Serbs say Northern Cyprus? If K-Serbs decide as you dream, don't think for a moment that No Kosova will look like 'greek cyprus', because do you seriously believe KFOR/KPS/NATO/US will step aside and let any Serbian mup units into no. Kosova? lol, Nope, the reality about your dream points to a ONCE AGAIN isolated Serbian enclave, surrounded by EU/KFOR/KPS troops with little hope for a prosperous future. Why? Really, even your most richest and ardent supporters in Russia or Serbia cannot flush away their money on a people gambling on possible violent means to their goals. A sure way to lose an investment. Think alittle harder about living and getting along with your Albanian neighbors. They really have your best interest at heart with a mutually advantageous agreement on Ahtissari's Plan. K Serbs will see their lives grow in leaps and bounds with a decision to stay and participate in an Independent Kosova. Why? 'cause the whole world will be watching and monitoring developments in Kosova. This reality shows that the world will be voicing their support or not on whatever occurs in Kosova under the Ahtissari Plan.

Delilje - I don't know who did what to whom, but the MAIN story is:

Belgrade launched an ethnic cleansing compaign of national magnitudes, that blew into an international problem, with NATO having to launch the first humanitarian bombing in it's history.

Now tell me, when did the government in Pristina do that? When did this exact scenario happen in the world?

No where!

That's why, Kosovo as a whole does not form a precendent, but a partition of Kosovo the way you suggest...would set a precedent of international magnitudes.

This game has been played and it's over a long time ago, Kosovo will become independent and it would not be in Belgrade's or Russia's interest to allow partition or recognize a Northern Kosovo independence due to the implications it would have in their very own countries and beyond.

Delije,

we both know that if Mitrovica declares independence that KFOR, NATO, will all be there in 2 minutes. Is Serbia ready to intervene into another nations internal affairs (int law)? We will see.

Mitrovica has a chance of statehood much less than Vojvodina.

You Albanians and Albanian sympathizers need to give it a rest.

Janice,
Do you really believe that MUP is not in Northern Mitrovica? Having worked there, I know that NATO forces turn a blind eye to MANY things so please stop with the "THEY'LL BE IN RIGHT AWAY." I bet they will. Yeah, just like Bosnia is still in the headlines despite the fact the Croats and Serbs have created De Facto states. I'm sure NATO/whoever will stop trade between Mitrovica and Serbia just like they have with Bosnia. Ever been to Visegrad? Sure doesn't feel like Bosnia to me...

KS,
Stop provoking. Enough with your and everyone else's chest-thumping. I mean really, you guys realize your not even on the radar blip at the moment right? Do you really believe because you throw a few million dollars at lobbying that the US and EU will risk BILLIONS with Russia? I mean, you do know the Russians can turn the heat off for most Western Europeans right? Or make it very expensive? Get a clue...

You Albanians need to just look at the big picture because I know that it seems to be very hard. But your self-serving attitudes and lack of "Realpolitik" is what will lead you folks to be under the constant microscope of the EU. We'll see how well you guys are able to govern because if Albania is your model, well, lets not go there because we all know how Albania has been a "success" story...

Funcakes,
The whole world knows that NATO bombing was not for humanitarian reason but for control of Kosovo.

Decades of ethnic cleansing done by K-Albanians agains the Serbian population is very much the truth that is going to come out to the world much to your shock.

The truth will not stay hidden for ever. This constant propaganda about ethnic cleansing of Albanians is getting very old now. We all know that it was NATO bombing that started the exit from Kosovo.

The whole plan was in place to occupy Kosovo and this was the best reason so the propaganda about ethnic cleaninsing started.

I belive there is a god and all the guilty will be brought to justice one day. Citizens of the participating countries will be very ashamed of their leaders indeed.

My dear Princip why don't you accept in the state that we are in and that is the State of Kosova, because where I am standing I don't see Serbian state any where.
Accept the fact that you will never see that movie again, ever.

Sorry Princip, but I ahve yet to hear the term that you use "Serbian Albanians".
I don't know where you got that from but the only terms that we officially use is/are example: K-A,K-S, K-Roma etc...
You are doing that just to be disrespectful towards others.

M. Miller I agree.
Princip and the others finally started to realized that Kosovo is lost for them.

Serbia did not suffer the consequences of the Yugoslav wars in its own territory and it is only natural that they should attempt to escape the Yugoslav mess untouched.

To Serbs, maintaining Kosova is a matter of pride and nationalism, something they were told to do back in school when learning about the Heavenly Serb People and Greater Serbia.

No Serb, other than Kosova Serbs actually has a justifiable or concrete interest in Kosova.

Even if Serbia somehow succeeds in formally keeping Kosova in its map (because quite frankly that is all they will be able to do anyways) that alone will not guarantee your access or control over Kosova.

We (Kosova Albanians) live here and the only possible way you are going to keep Kosova is if you send your police and army to occupy it.

Serbia has lost, accept it and get over it.

M.Miller: Albanians never referred to themselves as Serbian Albanians. In Albania we call them simply Kosovar, because it is implicit that they are Albanians. In fact they always referred to themselves as Albanians, nothing else. At the most you could call them Albanians of Serbia but that nowadays refers only to Valley Albanians, who as you can see prefer Valley to Serbian. Semantics but semantics always mattered in the Balkans. And if Princip is a consistent sort of guy he should shortly start speaking of K-Albanian Serbs.

Endri,

most developed nations do not agree in
"final solution" - this sounds horribly reminiscent of the Nazi's of the second world war. Putin recently did remind everyone about the consequences of Munich in 1938 and your comments suggest that "final solutions" being forced would bring closure when it clearly did not in 1941 let alone now in 2007!

Serbia with the support of Russia is wanting to find a "lasting solution" based on compromise, respect of human rights and international norms and laws.

Who is exactly trying to provoke an Albanian violent reaction? What has this to do with Albania?

With regards the Serbian Albanians they need to accept the state they are in and make the best opportunity for all in Serbia irrespective of ethnicity - you can't sub-divide a nation state because an ethnic minority become a local majority unless of course the state itself agrees - that really would create a huge precedent and rift in international norms and laws. Anyone up for an independent London?

UN SC resolution 1244 is clearly not going to be revoked without a "compromise and lasting" solution" so accept the state your in and in the words of former British PM Blair "conform to it"!

Princip:What Milosevic attempted to do in Kosova, and Mladic and Karadzic in BiH were quite reminiscent of the "final solution", BiH more so than Kosova. The same goes for Russia in Chechnya. Tell me where the respect for human rights and international laws and norms was in those cases and then we can talk. How can K-Albanians ever live under Serb sovereignty if your prime minister and president and the whole political establishment continually refer to them as extremists and terrorists and what not? And if you say that they mean the KLA that changes nothing: the KLA was and is supported by the K-Albanians and the KLA are K-Albanians.
But to be frank I think what you guys are doing is venting your frustration at the fact that Kosova is lost, rather than interpreting the facts. Ceku said that come December 10 he will wait for a few days and declare independence. The few days may turn into a week or two at most, but then it will happen. And the fact that he said that shows that that's what our friends in the West agree to. Let's see what you can do about that. We will not have long to wait.

Mr. Giver, the West has never referred K-Albanians as Serb-Albanians for reasons that are well known.
Princip and the other use this term in a mocking and provocative way towards K-Albanians. Even if you are right, the fact that we have exclusively refused to be called like that, it should be enough for you to refrain using this term.

People using this term do very well understand that its an offending term for K-Albanians and that's why they use it. In a way they accept themselves what "Serb" means for Albanians.

Sooner or later Albanians will realise that they only have 2 choices, either to negotiate with Serbia or stay in limbo forever.
(python, 10. October 2007 15:09)
unfortunatly, those are the only options that you see Python. There are plenty of other options out there that you may not like.
1. Independence under Ahtisaari's plan
2. Independence under new Troika's plan.
3.Unilateral independence.
4. Kosova join Albania (and Serbia cannot do anything about it)
As you see the sky is brighter if you see it without glasses.

Delije - Russia, Serbia and the others not recognizing Kosovo's independence, but recognizing N-Kosovo's independence, would form a precedent.

See, Kosovo is NOT considered a precedent because there was the humanitarian NATO bombing to stop the killings of civilian Albanians.

But that doesn't work for Northern Kosovo, because Pristina never launched an ethnic cleansing crackdown like Milosevic did.

That's why, other areas in the world, that don't have the ethnic cleansing campain excuse, will also declare independence, and they will want recognition, and Russia with Serbia and the others CANNOT deny them recognition, because of the precedent that they set in Northern Kosovo.

On the other hand, the West can deny Northern Kosovo and the others recognition, because they were never the target of a brutal mass atrocity scenario like the one launched by Milosevic.

And when Presevo Valley, and Western Macedonia and the Albanians in Ulcijn, Montenegro declare their independence, Russia and Serbia will have to recognize their independence...because faced with the Northern Kosovo precedent, their hands would be tied.

That's why, the NATO bombing against Milosevic's policies make Kosovo a unique scenario, while a declaration of independence by Northern Kosovo would set a precedent that would force Russia, Serbia and the non-recognizers of Kosovo to come under a mountain of double-standards.

Since both the Russians and Serbs have an interest in instability in Kosova caused by the loss of patience on the side of the Albanians the Russian position, although highly cynical, makes perfect sense. And after all Russia is rather far away from Kosova so it has nothing to lose even from a new conflict there. The Serbs are being rather shortsighted though, because any gains they stand to make would be nullified by a renewal of violence in Kosova. And the K-Serbs and the Valley Albanians would unfortunately be the main victims of such an event.
Fortunately since the US and most of the EU have made their mind up already, and since a more belligerent Russia has already started to cause a more belligerent reaction on the part of the West, I don't think it will come to that. Kosova will declare its independence as Ceku said yesterday and there is absolutely nothing Russia can do to stop it.
And a question to the anti-independence camp here: What can anyone do when independence is declared? Nothing?

Prnicip

Only in 1990's Serbia and its govt were oblivious to the international law and now they claim that it should be adhered to because hey we woke up and there is international law and of course to mother Russia to this day international law doesn't apply to them in any shape, way or from.

' Most developed nations' the daydreaming goes on and on i see, so Romania, Slovakia, Russia, Greece and..... oh sorry US, UK, France, Germany, Austria, Italy and many more but the latter once are in favor of independence.

Just got in from outside and the British army is on the rampage on raping, massacring and deporting on mass anyone who is not indigenous in London- oh sorry yet again this is what Serbian army JNA did to ethnic Albanians, hence we do not want to stay with you any longer.

No oppression
No discrimination
No going back to 1999
No partition

Independence is coming and nothing you or your mother Russia can do to stop it. Kosovar Serbians will be enjoying President Ahtisaris proposal for the ethnic minorities in Kosova.

Princip...

Not what they said but their actions are the onlys capable to determine Nazis.Actions like ethnic cleansing,mass murder killings and so on...
So im not afraid of words and im convinced that Kosova needs a SOLUTION and this must be the FINAL one,so we will not have other armed wars in the balcans.


Python...

I dont know who is dreaming here,but i can just say that 6mil serbs can't rule 2mil albanians,that behind them have 4mil and 1mil albanians respectively in Albania and Macedonia,these are the facts and the plainly situation on the ground,and Im just trying to be,i dont se anything oneiric in my point of view.

Time for violence has passed. Albanians are uneasy yes but no one is even contemplating any violent form of action. Serbia might cherish the thought of a backlash but it’s not going to happen.
Her insistence on a bizarre form of sovereignty over Kosovo is very strange. On their proposal Serbia is prepared to even relinquish border control. It knows too well that Albanians cannot and do not want to be integrated.
Now her sovereignty formula by definition excludes the absolute majority of the population, so the sovereignty rights only cover the territory and Serb minority. According to this all major attributes of sovereignty will be absent and Kosova will be let to its own devices. Theoretically will be a final push for more segregation, separation and maybe score settling.
I would argue that at this stage the threat of violence comes directly from Serbia and her action. It has undertaken a proactive campaign with strategic aims that do not make sense.
It knows full well that she is limiting her chances to have any sort of control on Kosova, be it nominal, and yet is prepared to insist on something which is not feasible. One may wonder why a kind of sovereignty only in name is preferred over Kosovas’ own sovereignty which in turn might bring greater benefits the region and even for Serbia. Indonesia went through the same experience with East Timor and the process was much easier.

Oooo, a security council meeting on Kosovo.

What a waste of time. They can all veto each other and nothing would get done.

That message has been received, and it's now time to go ahead with Plan B, the recognition game.

Individual countries will recognize Kosovo's independence, and the security council can save it's vetoes for other issues.

Peter: I think your comments make a lot of sense and they are very probable scenarios. But they could have consequences that will not be as negative on the Albanians as you might think.
The North might secede but if that happens it would open the question of Macedonia and Presheva. And even if those are not brought into play what arguments could Serbia or Russia possibly raise against the unification of the rest of Kosova with Albania? And besides forget about autonomy for the few thousand Serbs that would be left in Kosova if that happened.
And as long as Kosova is recognized by some in the EU for the time being it will do. The important thing is that Kosova is independent of Serbia, the rest will come with time. We do have powerful friends you know.
Naturally a common agreement would be ideal, but it is impossible. Albanians will never give up on independence and Serbia does not want to give up on Kosova. So you sort it out if you can because we can't. Anyway one thing that the EU might do is make Serbias accession conditional on recognition of Kosova. A vote against accession is just as valid for Serbia as for Kosova. And 10 - 20 years from now recognition of Kosova's independence might not be as impossible as it seems now. For us it is worth the price.
And one comment on Russia: By saying that Kosova should serve as a precendent Russia is playing with fire. It might get Abkhazia but what about the Caucasus?

Yes Mike,
That’s why Ischinger and by him I mean EU, constantly insists on getting a detailed explanation of how Serbia proposes to integrate the Albanian population into the state.
The answer might have shocked him, it sure shocked me.
BG surprise reply was that they acknowledge that Albanians will remain hostile to Serbia and they do not have ANY plans to integrate them. This still doesn’t stop BG in wanting Albanians or maybe their shade on the ground to be part of this fictitious construct.
Pathetic excuse if you ask me.

Jovan,
I do not usually answer people like you but I am curious to know what do you mean by that ominous threat?
Are you saying that you are going to empty a dense populated area by all the its inhabitants. I am surprised that your comments get published and mine do not.
No real man should be bragging about what you’re saying.

I mean... you should just sit back and think.
and keep in mind that 70% of all Albanians in KiM live in the vicinity around Pristina...
so, if there really happened anything like an albanian attack their loss would not only be the north of Kosovo.
(Jovan, 10. October 2007 19:28)

Wow so only 30% of Kosovars DONT live in Prishtina. Jovan you sound like a true Kosovar Expert, please do enlighten us with facts from myths.com

No more than 25% (-+2%) live in Prishtina.

” he stressed, adding that “most council members agree that negotiations need to end on December 10.”

Kongo included?

However the serbo-russian strategy is quite clear and it is the same low one.
In this case by continually avoiding the final solution,and in the meantime trying to provoke an Albanian violent reaction,therefore putting them on the wrong.We had a clear successful example of this policy during the 2004 riots.
in albania we have a proverb.."Even the river sleeps but the enemy dont",so i guess "someone" is working a lot in the shadow.
Fortunatelly 10 december is real,is near and finally will put an end to this absurd situation.

The only thing that can destabelize the region is rushing this along. This is going to take time and the thing that the UN is afraid of is the K-Albanians taking up arms. There are many things that Pristina needs to work on before the IC even thinks of any form of a solution to the status. One that comes to mind and should be a big prereq. is human rights of non-Albanians. Lets start there and we'll work on the rest of the things on Ban's list. The threat of violence should not be rewarded. Peaceful talks is the key for a solution not the ANA, KLA or whatever terrorist group that my pop up as freedom fighters in Kosovo. Serbia wants a peaceful solution not another war. Lets get these war criminals(Ceku, Hacim Tacim & others) out of the Pristina gov. and elect people that care for the K-Albanians in Nov. So when Nov. 17 comes lets elect a democratic gov. in Pristina not re-elect them again. If the Serbs did it in Serbia than the K-Albanians can do it in Kosovo.

So according to Endri, albanians are no way responsible for violence that they caused or might cause, if not granted independence. It's serbs fault, if they're attacked by albanians. Make's sense to anyone?

Keep dreaming Endri, there's no end in sight unless Albanians accept the fact that they're only a minority in Serbia and as such they can only get what other minorities in the world get, no more no less.

Village-bey, just a quick reply to your comment on sovereignty: this is one of the main sticking points to Serbia's proposal of Kosovo's autonomy, and something that is untenable. Including land within the confines of a state also means including its people. By that measure, some form of legitimate sovereingty must be felt by the people towards the government, and there can be no connection if said government is essentially disengaged from the people. This is the reason why Belgrade either needs to completely engage the Albanians or let everything go. While I don't condone the violence, and neither do you or Teni, you both gave valid arguments against the conditions of non-sovereign control over Kosovo (at least the Albanian parts) by Belgrade.

M.Miller, in response to your statement. That is how the WEST referred to the Serbs living in Croatia and Bosnia. CROATIAN SERBS, BOSNIAN SERBS, you never heard of that? Is it disrespectful when you do it to us? So naturally Serbs or anyone else has every right to refer to Albanians living in Serbia as SERBIAN ALBANIANS. They are SERBIAN CITIZENS of ALBANIAN ethnicity.

How comes nobody is saying nothing about Putin-Sarkozy meeting.
Mr Sarkozy said: A way will be found not to humiliate Russia over Kosovo essue.

Giver,

Call them S/Albanians.

(CAN YOU SAY CYPRUS???).--tomislav

Yes we can say Cyprus. Can Serbs say Northern Cyprus? If K-Serbs decide as you dream, don't think for a moment that No Kosova will look like 'greek cyprus', because do you seriously believe KFOR/KPS/NATO/US will step aside and let any Serbian mup units into no. Kosova? lol, Nope, the reality about your dream points to a ONCE AGAIN isolated Serbian enclave, surrounded by EU/KFOR/KPS troops with little hope for a prosperous future. Why? Really, even your most richest and ardent supporters in Russia or Serbia cannot flush away their money on a people gambling on possible violent means to their goals. A sure way to lose an investment. Think alittle harder about living and getting along with your Albanian neighbors. They really have your best interest at heart with a mutually advantageous agreement on Ahtissari's Plan. K Serbs will see their lives grow in leaps and bounds with a decision to stay and participate in an Independent Kosova. Why? 'cause the whole world will be watching and monitoring developments in Kosova. This reality shows that the world will be voicing their support or not on whatever occurs in Kosova under the Ahtissari Plan.

Princip UK says.....you can't sub-divide a nation state because an ethnic minority become a local majority unless of course the state itself agrees - that really would create a huge precedent and rift in international norms and laws.

This is true when reviewing the case of anywhere else, but KosovO. There hasn't been stability since the first invader stepped on Serbian land.

Sooner or later Albanians will realise that they only have 2 choices, either to negotiate with Serbia or stay in limbo forever.

"And a question to the anti-independence camp here: What can anyone do when independence is declared? Nothing?"

Kosovo Serbs declare independence and express their desire for reintegration with Serbia perhaps? Since Kosovo will obviously not be recognized by the UNSC, the borders will not be official by any means and the Kosovo Serbs will simply rejoin Serbia, taking the Northern side with them (Russia, China and others will recognize this independence from Kosovo the same way the US and some EU states will).

My point is this: cannot you not see how unilateral declaration of independence will not bring stability to the region? It will not end on Dec 10, that is for sure!

"Fortunately since the US and most of the EU have made their mind up already, and since a more belligerent Russia has already started to cause a more belligerent reaction on the part of the West, I don't think it will come to that."

It's not as black and white as you think. SOME EU states will follow the US in recognizing Kosovo unilaterally, SOME EU states will insist on the Ahtisaari package, while SOME EU states will not recognize Kosovo independence unless it comes from the UNSC.

Can you not see why negotiations are necessary and a common ground must be found?

"My dear Princip why don't you accept in the state that we are in and that is the State of Kosova, because where I am standing I don't see Serbian state any where. "

Because Serbs are just as stubborn as Albanians when it comes to this issue.

Endri

Blaming Serbia for the rising threat of violence form the side of the Kosovo Albanians does not make any sense and cannot be rewarded. They need to be patient and come to an agreement with Serbia.

M. Miller, when people use the name Kosova, they are being purposely disrespective also. Even the Pristina spokespeople use it's actual name, Kosovo. BTW, if you live in Serbia, you are Serbian, not necessarily a Serb. Not hard to understand, is it?

You Albanians are amazing. Most of you blew off Peter Sudyka's comments which are DEAD ON. If Kosovo declares unilateral independence, the Kosovo Serbs North of Mitrovica will too, and without UN backing, you have nothing but a partitioned country (CAN YOU SAY CYPRUS???). Like I said, chest-thumping and dreaming can only do so much. What, do you expect, the U.S. to withdraw troops from Iraq and Afghnaistan to "stabalize" the region? How long before the Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats say, "why not us too?" You guys are oblivious to the ramafications this has globally (which is why the U.S. backed off independence talks). But you push your nonsense on trying to persuade others here who are a little brighter than you think with chest-thumping and lavish stories. Face it, the EU will not tolerate violence coming from you guys because you're ticked off. That's not how civilized people behave. So my advice, get use to discourse and politics like everyone else....

Teni, KS, Nikshala, Agim & Albanian camp, what would the Serbs do if Ceku & co. declare independence? Well the real question is what will Pristina do when N-Kosovo declares independence from Pristina? I'll tell you, VS will rush in and secure N-Kosovo, it's declcration will be recognised by Russia & other countries that opposed Kosovo independence. Don't worry about the valley, Serbia (VS) is securing that area as we speak just read past reports. No one wants partition but it will happen involenteraly. Anyway how can Pristina keep the majority in N-Kosovo (Serbs) under Pristina against their own will when they don't want anything to do with Pristina?

did those albanian experts writing here ever think of what they are doing here?

I mean... you should just sit back and think.
and keep in mind that 70% of all Albanians in KiM live in the vicinity around Pristina...
so, if there really happened anything like an albanian attack their loss would not only be the north of Kosovo.

"The North might secede but if that happens it would open the question of Macedonia and Presheva. And even if those are not brought into play what arguments could Serbia or Russia possibly raise against the unification of the rest of Kosova with Albania?"

You see teni, this is why I cannot see the benefit of unilateral independence for anybody, because there is no universal law or guarantee behind it that would prevent Macedonia and Presevo Albanians from breaking away and so forth, and so forth.

The Ahtisaari Plan would at least be better in that it has some guidelines that would indeed make it unique in some way, but tell me, how will unilateral independence not cause a precedent when all it takes is a few countries to recognize it (like Ceku wants it)? All it takes is one state.

"Albanians will never give up on independence and Serbia does not want to give up on Kosova. So you sort it out if you can because we can't."

There's the problem though teni, US wants unilateral, EU wants Ahtisaari and Russia wants mutual agreement, the world cannot come to an agreement and neither can you, so what next? Favor one and not the other? Imagine the consequences of that!

"Naturally a common agreement would be ideal, but it is impossible. "

I am not surprised, given the history between these people in the region. I am idealizing, I know, but I still pray for it, it would be the best for all!

"And one comment on Russia: By saying that Kosova should serve as a precendent Russia is playing with fire. It might get Abkhazia but what about the Caucasus?"

This is exactly my point teni, Caucasus and Balkans have something in common: lots of different ethnics groups, a history of many wars and horrific bloodshed, hatred, and one too many foreign powers meddling in it.

But going back to this issue, here it is in black and white: UNSC sidestepped and 1244 ignored because US didn't want to risk Russian veto in Albania's favor, Russia threatened veto at UNSC in Serbia's favor, so evidently it CANNOT be left for anyone else to decide (although I still personally believe that UNSC is the only legal and safe way), other than the Kosovo Albanians and Serbians. They have been given a great opportunity by the Troika, may they use it to their advantages!

Both sides have to sacrifice something, but neither can be allowed to leave empty-handed, because that cannot bring stability to the region.

village bey,

it´s the Albanians who are threatening, better don´t forget that!

what I wrote, is no threat, but a serious attempt to make clear that the Albanians would only shoot themselves into their own feet, if they started a new conflict!

it would not be necessary to empty the Priština-region at all, I want those poeple to stay, of course!

what I want to say, and you deliberately seem to wish to turn into a "threat", is something completely different: your KLA or ANA-thughs or whatever you wanna call them, would not be able to withstand the serbian army.

you can write rambo-phrases as much as you wish to, but the fact remains in place.

you would end up with lots of refugees in the Priština-area and all because of a bunch of criminals that deliberately want to escalate things in order to maintain their illegal profit from the chaos in KiM.

that is something you obviously do not want to see, or you are simply staying quiet with reason.
one alternative or the other, you are not looking very serious if you do not face the facts.

and one more thing, I forgot in addition to my previous answer to village bey:

"Jovan,
I do not usually answer people like you "

that is the reason why your comments do not get the "okay" to be published here: you are not capable of staying serious, but instead you are getting only personal!

so, do not wonder if you´re not being published!

you should first learn to stay focused on the issue instead of trying to provoke others...

hope you got the message.

Funcake, your saying that the Albanians never did a thing to a single Serb in Kosovo. Lets see, revenge attacks on Serbs in 99 to present, the destruction of Serbian religious sites, kidnapings, 2004 riots over fales accusations & no freedom of movement. I think thats more than enough for N-Kosovo to declaire independence from Pristina.

Delilje - I don't know who did what to whom, but the MAIN story is:

Belgrade launched an ethnic cleansing compaign of national magnitudes, that blew into an international problem, with NATO having to launch the first humanitarian bombing in it's history.

Now tell me, when did the government in Pristina do that? When did this exact scenario happen in the world?

No where!

That's why, Kosovo as a whole does not form a precendent, but a partition of Kosovo the way you suggest...would set a precedent of international magnitudes.

This game has been played and it's over a long time ago, Kosovo will become independent and it would not be in Belgrade's or Russia's interest to allow partition or recognize a Northern Kosovo independence due to the implications it would have in their very own countries and beyond.

Delije,

we both know that if Mitrovica declares independence that KFOR, NATO, will all be there in 2 minutes. Is Serbia ready to intervene into another nations internal affairs (int law)? We will see.

Mitrovica has a chance of statehood much less than Vojvodina.

You Albanians and Albanian sympathizers need to give it a rest.

Janice,
Do you really believe that MUP is not in Northern Mitrovica? Having worked there, I know that NATO forces turn a blind eye to MANY things so please stop with the "THEY'LL BE IN RIGHT AWAY." I bet they will. Yeah, just like Bosnia is still in the headlines despite the fact the Croats and Serbs have created De Facto states. I'm sure NATO/whoever will stop trade between Mitrovica and Serbia just like they have with Bosnia. Ever been to Visegrad? Sure doesn't feel like Bosnia to me...

KS,
Stop provoking. Enough with your and everyone else's chest-thumping. I mean really, you guys realize your not even on the radar blip at the moment right? Do you really believe because you throw a few million dollars at lobbying that the US and EU will risk BILLIONS with Russia? I mean, you do know the Russians can turn the heat off for most Western Europeans right? Or make it very expensive? Get a clue...

You Albanians need to just look at the big picture because I know that it seems to be very hard. But your self-serving attitudes and lack of "Realpolitik" is what will lead you folks to be under the constant microscope of the EU. We'll see how well you guys are able to govern because if Albania is your model, well, lets not go there because we all know how Albania has been a "success" story...

"keep in mind that 70% of all Albanians in KiM live in the vicinity around Pristina...

(Jovan, 10. October 2007 19:28)

So only 30% of Kosovars DONT live in Prishtina. Jovan you sound like a true Kosovar Expert, please do enlighten us with facts from myths.com

No more than 25% (-+2%) live in Prishtina."


KS, you should perhaps once again read my post, and maybe then you will understand it.
but, this time I urge you to READ it PROPERLY!

Funcakes,
The whole world knows that NATO bombing was not for humanitarian reason but for control of Kosovo.

Decades of ethnic cleansing done by K-Albanians agains the Serbian population is very much the truth that is going to come out to the world much to your shock.

The truth will not stay hidden for ever. This constant propaganda about ethnic cleansing of Albanians is getting very old now. We all know that it was NATO bombing that started the exit from Kosovo.

The whole plan was in place to occupy Kosovo and this was the best reason so the propaganda about ethnic cleaninsing started.

I belive there is a god and all the guilty will be brought to justice one day. Citizens of the participating countries will be very ashamed of their leaders indeed.