Kosovo: Incitement against Romanians

So does that mean Romania is not permitted to have reservations with regards to Kosovo independence? If they voice something different, does that make them enemies of the people of Kosovo or something?

This desperation of the Albanians is becoming troublesome, I don't think the EU will want such a country in its ranks.

This article is terribly misleading. The demonstrators on the 10th did not "storm government premises". The protesters walked into a police cordon that blocked the street for a non-violent march. The police reacted with firing teargas and rubber bullets 11 years out of date at close range to the head of protesters.
No investigation has "revealed that the Romanians acted according to regulations and law". Instead, investigations have revealed that the police reaction was unnecessary, avoidable, disproportionate and unlawful. Due to this, the use of rubber bullets is now banned in all UN operations. The main investigation report on the incident, the Dean report, also blamed operational chaos and an unclear chain of command for the death and injuries. Despite identifying Romanian police as the source of the deadly shots, the report could not identify individual gunners.
B92 should change this article immediately according to the facts outlined above.

Albanians inciting hate and distorting reality through the printed word...NO WAY!!!!

perhaps, the UNMIK-authorities should take a little bit more care of those albanian media-services in Kosovo ..they have also incited the 2004 pogroms against Serbs on the basis of false accusations...

who is in charge, actually? who does not take care about albanian extremism here?

They also released names of innocent Serbs. Thats not a paper that is a government tool. Clean propaganda machine that has never cited its sources for any of their articles.

"# Myabe, if the Romanians behaved a little more humanely towards the population they would be treated fairly, but taken the problems they created with that murder not too long ago, nobody really likes them. Nobody likes them period.
Beside, Albanians know what their attitude is as far as the stance on Independence.
(lazer, 7. October 2007 16:05)"

So because Romania is against independence, you are saying that nobody likes them? So does that mean Greek, Slovakian, Cypriot and Spanish peacekeepers in Kosovo are also in danger of retaliation because they don't like the idea of an independent Kosovo?

They got away very easy killing two Albanian protesters using out of date rubber bullets and now they ask why we disslike them.

Albanian EXTREMIST? Vetëvendosje is a movement NOTHING to do with killing or bombing anyone. Your racist tone is more and more appearant every day.

Two Romanian soldiers kill Albanians and you call us extremists? Those soldiers had no right to point their guns at PEOPLE's heads, it's called protocol.

The free media should have the right to portray the Romanian soldiers as barbaric or w/e it wants to portray them as.

Well after 2004 what do u expect them to do. Allow it to escalate?

I guess the Albanians picked that notion up from Bush, "Your either with us, or against us". A very democratic way of viewing things, I must say.

Peter Sudyka,

no we are saying that Kosovars don't like Romanian "peace keepers" bc they shot at civilians (right in the head).

Protocols say that they are only allowed to shoot no higher than chest.

louie

Well to begin with, the only two countries where the new member states are not allowed to work legally are France and Germany (until 2011 I believe).

About the Poles in the UK, you talk mostly of uneducated workers going off to do physical labor in the UK, to earn money so they can have a lot more quicker back in Poland, because the UK economy is stronger than that of Poland and so is the currency.

However, to blame the crime entirely on Poles in the UK is not fair, there are masses of other nationalities in the UK (Turks, Pakistanis, colonials from Africa, the Caribbean, India etc.), and while yes, Polish workers have been known to live like squatters, drink too much etc., but I one thing you don't hear of is this extremism and violence evident in Kosovo by the Kosovar Albanians, NLA, KLA etc., that is all I was saying.

Peter Sudyka,
I have read few of your comments and even though you never liked the idea of Kosovo to be independent,I won't hate you,but I won't agree with your comments!
You are writing all the time about"EU is not happy to have a country like this or like that,you are telling K-Albanians to behave in the future",etc.
That's fair enough!
In 2004,all then EU countries opened the door to the new EU Members.
While majority of then EU countries, still won't allow the new members of EU to work,UK allowed that!!!
And what happened,around 3 million Eastern Europians are now working in UK and 90% are Poles!
In the first year they worked hard.Now, they won't go back to their country,they are abusing the system!
They are claiming Child Benefit for the children born in Poland,when they rent the house,they don't show the right number of tenants,in some cases eight people sleep in one room,the crime is higher and I think UK made a mistake by letting such a big number of new EU States to work in UK!
K-Albanians are not "Angels",but K-Albanians are in Europe and they should be excepted by EU!!!

What is trying to do that Romanian commander?

Myabe, if the Romanians behaved a little more humanely towards the population they would be treated fairly, but taken the problems they created with that murder not too long ago, nobody really likes them. Nobody likes them period.
Beside, Albanians know what their attitude is as far as the stance on Independence.

B92: Comments which include insults, indecencies, racial or national hate messages and intolerance of any kind will not be published. Hateful words are not allowed on B92’s site.

AND NOW, TAKE A LOOK:

Albanians inciting hate and distorting reality through the printed word...NO WAY!!!!
(vrnjak, 7. October 2007 16:26)

I was a US KFOR soldier stationed at Bondsteel from Sep 2005 - May 2007. I was in MNTF - C at Camp Clarke the night of the Vetevendosje protests in Pristina.

The Irish were on high alert because Vetevendosje is a radical and extremist group that is trying to incite the ignorant youth of Kosovo against minorities and UNMIK.

This reality is recognized by KFOR and the UN. The PISG pretends they do not support Vetevendosje but the bottom line is that groups says and does things that the intl community would not accept from Ceku and Sediju.

The protesters became very violent and belligerent during the march and UNMIK - P, KPS, and KFOR responded with appropriate, reasonable, necessary, and proportional force to dissipate the threat.

is there or is there not illegal incitement against these people, or are they lying? are you in kosovo aware that this is NOT how young democracies work? do you even want a democracy?

Once Independent, Kosova/o will be able to influence and pick and choose which countries will have piecekeepers on the ground.
No Russians, Romanians, Slovakians, Greek and cyprus!!!

Louie,
You are absolutely right in your last comment. I am Albanians but I live and work in the UK. Some people here don't want to hear the truth especially when it is not a sweet one.

Well , in Romania not everybody thinks they are innocent. IF they where guilty they should receive punishment.Maybe it really wasn`t their fault. Idon`t know it.

I forgot to add one more thing. Because regulations/protocols were not followed UNMIK Police Comisioner was fired and Romanian Riot Police was sent back home. They could not be prosecuted in Kosovo becuase the have Diplomatic Imunity...prety much similar to the story of the BLACKWATEr in Iraq. So using little common sence which I think all of you have, you wont need to long to come up with a conclusion on who was right and who was wrong. Thank you!

Kim, I agree that the article is misleading, but your comment is somewhat misleading too. From all accounts, the protest was not calm and peaceful, as your portrayal of it would have us believe. The Dean report says: "Police used tear gas and rubber bullets when about 3,000 protesters tried to break through police lines to reach government buildings. Film footage showed the protestors throwing stones and other heavy objects at police, including wooden placards.

In an investigation published on 23 February, Balkan Insight revealed that UN police had opened fire and continued to fire while advancing towards the protesters, even when it was apparent the crowd was retreating."

So there were excesses on both sides. The police did not fire without provocation, into a peaceful group of protesters. On the other hand, the fact that at least some of the protesters were violent does not exonerate the Romanian gunners.

A REPLY YO ANTHONY, the "US KFOR SOLDIER"

Anthony, I am one of the inside guys (for the lack of the better term) who knows how things SHOULD work. I am sory I cant say more to that but read carefuly what I have to say:
Nobody denies that protesters were violent.Everybody knows that. You said, quote "KFOR RESPONDED WITH APPROPRITAE FORCE....."

i.I dont think you are certified to to EVALUATE if Romanian Riot Police used excessive force or not, knowing the fact that Internal Investigations (the certified guys who are not Kosovo Albanians) determined that Romanians DID NOT FOLLOW protocol/rules for use of force. Thats why someone had to be held accountable. In this case UNMIK Police Commisioner was fired.
ii.KFOR did not respond. They were not to respond. The only ones that were supposed to and did respond were Kosovo Police Service, SPU (Romanians) and MSU (Italian Carabinieri). This tells me ones again that you have NOTHING TO DO with KFOR and you were not even close to the protests.

iii.Rubber bullets are NOT ALOWED in UN Missions thats what their SOP (Standars of Operations) says. Even if they were allowed to use them, the ammunition they used (the rubber bullets) were EXPIRED, which means they cant be used!

iv. If you are really who you claim you are you should also know that quote "THEY SHALL NOT BE AIMED ABOVE CHEST...." in this case rubber bullets. Do you know how these two guys died in the protest? HEAD WOUNDS INFLICTED BY RUBBER BULLETS...So if someone gets 2 in their head you cant tell me that Romanians used appropriate force. Thats how these 2 protesters died.

v.If you were really a US KFOR Soldier explain to me how come you were stationed in Kosovo from 2005-2007? We all know that tour of duty is 12 months. If indeed you were a US KFOR Soldier you should have undergone a Riot Control Training (the one i have undergone). One part of that training explains EXCATLY how NON-LETHAL WEAPONS are to be used, in this case rubber bullets. It`s something called RULES FOR USE OF FORCE which clearly states that those things should not be aimed BELLOW CHEST ONLY...Thats why they call them NON-LETHAL so nobody dies! Comments are wellcome

Ofcourse I hate to see people dying.

But Albaninas were attacking UN persons. Why?

Albanians should ACCEPT they live in Serbia. An focus their energy on reintegrating in Serbia.

No demonstrations are needed then.

The deal was autonomy.
Ofcourse UN/EU should stay there to help ALL Kosovars.

But Albanians must stop complaining. The deal was autonomy. Stop crying for independence and get a life!

Welcome in Europe!

This desperation of the Albanians is becoming troublesome, I don't think the EU will want such a country in its ranks.
(Peter Sudyka, 7. October 2007 15:41)
Dear Peter,
the only reason in my previous comment I mentioned the influx of new EU countries to UK is to reply to your comments above.
In no way the rise of crime in UK is down to Poles,I apologise if I have upset you.
What I wanted to explain to you that K-Albanians are from Europe and no matter what kind of impression you have regarding us as a nation,EU is "stucked" with us!!!
I consider Balkan Nations almost the same.We have to "thank" Turkish for letting us behind decades from real Europians.
Just watch the news in Balkans,
every day killings are happening,protests,etc.This is typical Balkans.Whenever the Turks were,there are still problems.
The things I am writing now are not relevant to you,but I am really sad about the situation in Balkans.
In every country corruption is high that you would be crazy to invest in these countries.
I think some of the new EU countries joined a bit early or maybe unprepared.
I don't believe on EU as a long investment.There are to many different nations,languages,cultures,etc.I don't think so it will work.
They want to "copy" USA,but Americans are dreamers and they believe in themselves,while us in Balkans,we only dream!
Everyone dreams to join EU,I want Kosovo and Serbia to join the EU,but how long it will last!!!
Peace and Love!

NEWSFLASH if there were not a demostration that incited violence would not even be discussing rubber bullet or romanians. Just because some jackass ran his mouth and incited a riot cause the death of those two people. They figured Romanian KFOR would run like usual but stood there ground and use approriate force. I don't care what Noli or any other person who says there was too much force. Yeah right put yourself in there shoes and what would you do stand there and get beat or killed. Wrong answer if people respected the law and troops sent there to protect them from the Serbs and decide well we will do what we want learn a terrible lesson. Two people lost there lives for what someone else's agenda? You can flame me all you want but none of your poster do not know what you were talking about. Shooting off your mouth about something you don't know what happen because YOU WERE NOT THERE. Leave this subject alone and have respect for those who lost there lives. Did US KFOR shoot rubber bullets at Serb Protesters in Mitrovica? The protest threw rocks and got tear gassed. Some KFOR injuries but they got the picture. Just like those people who thought Romanians would run, remember folks you cannot do as you want no matter what country you are in.

"What I wanted to explain to you that K-Albanians are from Europe and no matter what kind of impression you have regarding us as a nation,EU is "stucked" with us!!! "

Of course Albanians have the right to the EU, the are as European as anyone else, I was merely referring to this mentality of threatening or endangering people who do not agree with your world-view, and that it is all.

"Everyone dreams to join EU,I want Kosovo and Serbia to join the EU,but how long it will last!!! "

Both have the right and inevitably they will be, I am only of the opinion that under Serbia, they will enter quicker. The quicker the better, this is my opinion, one thing the EU does give is great opportunities to develop as a person, I know this very well.

To George:

First of all I’m sorry to see intellectual people (that’s what you think you are and probably are) react to ignorant, provocating Predictors comments. He does not deserve your attention. He doesn’t deserve anyone’s attention...but let’s leave him aside and concentrate on the issue of losing friends;

First of all Kosovo didn’t get close to independence because Romania, Greece and Slovaks. You mentioned that they were part of NATO alliance and bombed Serbia etc etc. I have to disagree with you on that! All the above mentioned countries rejected the idea of bombing Serbia except Bulgaria. NATO did not launch any attacks on Serbia from any of these countries. There is no NATO base in Slovakia and Romania and Greece didn’t agree to take part. NATO Troops were attacked in Greece! Bulgaria did not take part on bombing but provided its airspace. Just because we have reservations toward these countries does not mean we hate them, taking into account statements coming from Slovakia, Greece (who are pretty much same as US to Serbia). Do you know Greeks have boots (military troops) on ground in Kosovo? Was there any Greek soldier ever attacked including March Riots? NEGATIVE...none. Was there any Slovak soldier ever attacked? NOPE. Now everybody knows how Albanians feel about Russians and they didn’t hesitate to say that loud...Do you know what they did with them? Well they got attacked a lot which resulted in 2 Russian casualties. Was that right even thou they don’t like us? NOPE it wasn’t right! Are you getting my point?

Now if we start loosing friends because of people like predictor we didn`t/don`t need them to begin with. People know who we are and how we feel. Come on people we are all grown-ups here, so lets behave appropriate and use our brain that lord gave us to think.

Now regarding Romanians;
You probably watch news and are up to date with on international affairs. Tell me what happened in the US when word got out that BLACKWATER Security allegedly killed 20 Iraqis and were flown back to US because they are immune to Iraqi Prosecution? Well, a lot of people started asking questions...Can you just shoot people and not be held accountable for? Of course not. Let me enlighten you in case you don’t know what happened. There was a congressional hearing because of that incident. People from BLACKWATER were GRILLED for 5 hours straight, in front of congress not to mention US Diplomatic Corps responsible for them! Now what have we learned from this...Well, if you shoot people you have to answer questions, Iraq, US, does not matter! Now, what have Romanians done so far regarding that issue? NOTHING! Do you think they could write a letter of condolence to the families of those 2 guys? Do you think they could have told everyone that CASE IS BEING INVESTIGATED? Failing to do that is pretty bad especially for a EU member state who calls on countries around the world to respect human rights and all that. The same EU member states that attack every US policy regarding Terrorism and Detainees. I mean I’m confused....Help me to understand this! Just because Romania is an EU member means that we can’t ask questions because we can piss our friends off? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not in favor of grilling Romanians and I don’t believe those guys wanted to kill anyone that day but if they want to teach Serb and Albanians about respecting human rights this is hardly the way...and they should not be wondering when they find themselves in the middle of the violent riot. Albanian or Serb. Everybody should be accountable for its actions PERIOD!
Thank you for taking your time to read this long coment.

Noli from KOSOVO, recently returned from Iraq

P.S.:Would apprectiate any coment input on my coment! Honestly...

Noli: you wrote:
“First of all I’m sorry to see intellectual people (that’s what you think you are and probably are) react to ignorant, provocating Predictors comments. He does not deserve your attention. He doesn’t deserve anyone’s attention...but let’s leave him aside and concentrate on the issue of losing friends;”

I can clearly see your impartiality intentions. But, obviously you did not have a chance to read George’s earlier comments; I can quote him to you now:
- “I can assure Kosovo Albanians that Romania will never recognize an independent Kosovo (meaning here in self declaration – apparently, because if EU consensus is reached they can simply not react differently).
- ”I really hope that Brussels will not ask us EU people (meaning here in Romania) to jump whenever US wants that from us”,
- “Romania was the country that assisted US in Iraq war”
- “Maybe you should remember that Kosovo is where it is today, i.e. closer than never to its independence, not only due to US and UK or Germany, but also due to Romanians (and Bulgarians, Slovakians, Spaniards, Greeks and many others) as those countries also supported the NATO bombings on Milosevic forces in 1999.” By George

I apologize to George if I did not quote him word by word as I couldn’t remember all, but the meaning is right. You can clearly see at first that he is coming in contradiction with him self, and I do not want to comment that any longer.

George,

I am just curious, why are you mentioning these countries: Romanians (and Bulgarians, Slovakians, Spaniards, Greeks? EU is much bigger, right?

Noli
Do you still believe in Santa Claus? Obviously you do, as you still believe that you can solve the Kosova problem commenting here with people whom you don’t even know, imagining them as intellectuals or even friends!

Ron wrote: “Of course I hate to see people dying.
But Albanians were attacking UN persons. Why?"
Yes, Albanians had attacked the UN(police officers), but they were unarmed and it was crystal clear that there was no threat from deadly force. But, Romanians p.officers, they used the rubber bullets aiming on the prohibited zones(head and chest)causing deadly wounds on the demonstrators. They killed them. See for these the international” Basic principles for the use of force and firearms for law enforcement officials". Rubber bullets is to be considered as an intermediate weapon and not deadly force weapon.
ANTHONY: you are not a US soldier, but nevertheless, if you as an US soldier will react same way as Romanians did on Albanians, the rest of your life you could spent on the death row.

To Predictor, and Noli, from George:

Predictor, please do not mislead Noli and others quoting me in a selective way, especially that I have already answered your accusation of contradiction on 28 Sept.
Both of you may check the respective post on the B92 story titled “Tadic Kosovo compromise has no alternative” of 26 September 2007, it is the last one on the webpage.

Also, regarding the issue of self-proclaimed independence, the key word in my previous post (of 28 Sept.) was "unilaterally". I was saying: "you [Kosovo Albanians] may proclaim unilaterally the Kosovo independence on daily basis after December 10, but don't expect to be accepted and considered as valid, at least not by Romania!"

I think everybody agrees on this scenario, that if Kosovo proclaims its independence without the official backing of EU, some countries in EU will step back from their position, even countries who are now favourable to Kosovo independence. The problem is not the outcome – independence – but how it is obtained, i.e. trough self-proclamation without approval of EU, or by consensus reached within EU.

Of course that Romania will abide by any UN decision on Kosovo (if there will be one, it seems not after the Russians veto threat), and also will go along with EU common political decison on this issue. I dare to say Bucharest is not considering Kosovo issue so important to jeopardize it’s relations within EU by being the only one to oppose a EU common voice on this issue. In other words, we are realist people, so if all the other agree, we will join them. Hope Kosovo Albanians will not take it personally, because it is not.

From this perspective, Pristina should be worried more about Spain, Greece and Cyprus, who are having direct problems (you all have seen the recent developments in Spain, regarding ETA and its political wing, people arrested, violent protests etc.) and also a more powerful voice inside EU. Romania’s concern is related to the possible usage of a Kosovo precedent by Russia against Moldavia Republic, in the Transdniestr separatists case, because we recognized Moldavia Republic in its constitutional borders and we support them as such. As for Transilvania, often mentioned, this is a solved issue already, Hungarian minority political party is part of the Bucharest Govt. for years, Budapest and Bucharest governments have joint sessions each year, Open Sky Treaty, etc. By the way, that’s one of the reasons we were admitted into EU.

Predictor, regarding your question:
“I am just curious, why are you mentioning these countries: Romanians (and Bulgarians, Slovakians, Spaniards, Greeks? EU is much bigger, right?”

I have mentioned only these countries because usually they are mentioned as opposing Kosovo independence inside EU. If you got the idea of my post, would have make no sense, in the respective context, to mention US, it is pretty clear Americans are enjoying a very permissive medium in Kosovo…

However, Predictor, you have not answered my question in the end of my previous post, right before the quote from ICG report on March 2004 events. Any thoughts?

Noli,
Thanks for your remarks.
Still, my reply to Predictor was not only addressed to him, but also to other people, more balanced and open to debate. I am happy to see I have reached this goal.

Now, some comments on your post, to clarify some issues:

Not only Bulgaria, but also Romania provided airspace for NATO bombings. Romania accepted the bombings as intended to remove a dictatorial regime (Milosevic) and when I say Romania, I mean not only the political leadership but also common people. We Romanian have seen this as a proof that we are ready to join NATO and to be a partner with NATO countries. Of course, this was a “real politik” decision, but one should no underestimate the fact that Romania sacrificed in this issue not only billions of dollars as collateral damages (e.g. the blockade of Danube) but also the friendship of Serbs. All over the NATO bombings period, this attitude was prevalent in Romanian media, exception being made by the (at that time) Social Democrat Party (ex-Communists) who were trying to use this issue to attack the liberal reformist Government in Bucharest in place between 1996 and 2000.

Last but not least, Romania decided to refuse access on her airspace for Russia, when Moscow was trying to reinforce the bridgehead the SFOR-originated Russian troops did occupy Pristina airport, right before NATO to enter Kosovo. Bulgaria did the same. Therefore, their involvement in the conflict, limited of course (we were not NATO members at that time) should not be denied. And for sure NATO was not bashed and attacked in Romania, at that time, as it happened in Greece!

My point is that Albanians should look for more friends than only US, because US still cannot do freely everything they want in the world (they needed partners for Afghanistan, for Irak, they need partners for Kosovo too).
And I agree with you that a relation of centuries old, as the one between Romanians and Albanians (or the one between Serbs and Romanians) will not disappear overnight just because people like Predictor (I hope I understood correctly your sayings on this matters).

Now, on Romanian Gendarmery in Kosovo:

The comparison with Blackwater case is not consistent and correct, not to mention that is unfair for Romanian Gendarms, not only because Kosovo is not Irak (thanks God!) but also for several reasons: Blackwater people are mercenaries, everybody knows that their human resources are relying heavily on people who previously were discharged from the US army or police (why? easy to guess!), they are using the principle “shoot first, ask questions later”, and in the cases mentioned in Congress, they were acting by themselves, only under the general umbrella of US contracts. That’s why they were grilled in the Congress, and I am sure some of them are very “trigger happy” and guilty. Also, it is important to establish their mental set-up: that Irakians are all enemies, and not to be trusted, because anybody could be a crazy insurgent.

On the other, Romanian Gendarms are a professional police force; they have a job to continue in Romania, so for them it is important how they are assessed by their own officers and also UNMIK officials; for that, they cannot afford mistakes, and their mindset is very different of the one of Blackwater’ people, especially that they have no grudge against any of Kosovo ethnicities and they know also that Romania is not the alfa and omega in solving Kosovo issue, so they feel neutral in this confrontation; they don’t feel threatened in Kosovo, so they have no reason to be “trigger-happy”; and in Kosovo, they are under UNMIK command, according to the contract between UN and Bucharest, and that’s why the investigation was conducted by UNMIK, and not by Bucharest, because their actions on 10 February were conform with the standard action procedures in Romania. It was not like the Gendarms burst into a house in search for weapons and killed the inhabitants by mistake: the demonstrators were attacking the police forces with everything they could get a grip on. And as long UNMIK established that individual culpabilities cannot be established in the deaths of 10 Feb., Bucharest cannot go against this decision (although Romania co-operated with UNMIK, as UNMIK admitted officially, and the Gendarms have stayed another extra month in Kosovo only for that – something many countries, fully developed democracies, would not do).
It may not look OK, but any country is protecting its citizens, especially when they are acting on behalf of International Community.

This is why I have mentioned in my previous post the deaths of Kosovo Albanians killed by American, Danish and French KFOR troops in March 2004. Did UNMIK or KFOR even bothered to investigate? No, because in all cases, the soldiers were not even ever identified, and shipped out of Kosovo in no-time…

Noli, you say:
“Just because Romania is an EU member means that we can’t ask questions because we can piss our friends off?”
That was not my intention, my previous post was only responding to Predictor offensive suggestions.
Romania is not a perfect country or democracy, this is understood (come on, not even the great US of A are not such things!). This is why am still continuing this debate, because I feel I can put some light on some issues and get some light from others, on other issues or the same ones. At the end of the day, the debate is important as an exercise of free thought, the participants are less important as individuals.

And I fully agree with you that everybody should be accountable for his/her actions. Nobody is perfect, and there is a general saying all over the world: see first your sins, before accusing others. Because “those who take the sword, will die by the sword” (and I quote the Bible although I am not a religious person, but Christianity somehow “copyrighted” many old sayings :) I think if everybody will pay attention to this – Romanians, Albanians, Americans – then many problems will be solved…

Apologies to everybody for the long post,

Best from Kosovo,
George

To George, and Noli

George, we got the point now, as it seems we would much better understand each other talking with fingers than writing here. Honestly saying I, personally, have nothing against the Romania, and Romanians at all, in contrary I really regret them when I saw them for the first and the last time in Romania (meaning 17 years ago). I presume, and hope, things have changed since. Regarding your concern over Moldavia, it could be that you are right; however, Moldova is an independent country today, and I have nothing agains that, so no fear Kosova could be a precedent. This idea, actually, comes from BG circles. Also idea that two Albanian states in the Balkans are out of question is from BG, while Albania had nothing against two Romanian countries, right? Simply said, I do not understand Romanian politics (especially when they were part of the UN SC – until dec. 2006) towards Kosova, why did they oppose any positive attitude of the others.
Simple question: what will an independent Kosova harm Romania?
Regarding the ICG report from 2004 you know that very well that every one living in Kosova (including internationals right) is fully aware of (meaning firstly of people interested is reading it). I am one of them. I must say it is not comparable at all with events on February 10, even though I am not a supporter of Albin Kurti initiative at all. While 2004 was a Kosova wide unrest, in what even KFOR, KPS and UN Police lost control of the situation, and Serb minority was seriously endangered, February 10 was something completely different: protesters were trying to go through the police cordon, and that’s all! That is actually happening every day in the west Europe and US, and nobody is shot, right?


Noli,
I got your point too. I do not criticize your English, it’s fine, honestly. I was too tough, maybe when I said “persona non grata”, but, I found no reason for a Romanian guy to express such a comment towards us Kosovars and Kosova issue, trying to defend his compatriots in an issue that, even in Romania, I believe, they would be indicted.

I guess the Albanians picked that notion up from Bush, "Your either with us, or against us". A very democratic way of viewing things, I must say.
(CoscoVo, 7. October 2007 18:15)


^^^^ this is coming from a person who pounds his chest at the sound of "1389" and "Serb".

I bet the Serbian population are the proudest/nationalistic ethnicity in Europe, period.

With us or against us should be your moto.

Us Albanians need to be fair and stop pointing the finger at everyone.

On 10 of February 2007,Romanian gendarmes had used the unjustified deadly force against the unarmed demonstrators. Until the Romanian government doesn't punish their police officers who killed two of our Albanian brothers, I (w)e will treat them as killers.

louie, I doubt if many people who have lived in London for any long length of time would blame Poles for the high crime rate. Polish workers especially builders are renowned in England for doing quality work at reasonable cost. I dont want to point out any other immigrant communities as contributing disproportionately to the high crime rate because its not necessary because most people know who they are, and they're not from europe. Its a fact.

I am an “International” (Polish) working in Kosovo, I have arrived immediately after 10 February events. I deal on daily basis with Kosovo Albanians, from officials to common people. I must say that nobody even mentioned the 10 February case as a reason of hating Romanians, generally or particularly those present in Kosovo. K Albanians are more concerned with the fact that Romania is not supporting Kosovo independence, despite the fact that (as I was told) Romanians have helped a lot the Albanians in the past centuries (the National Anthem of Albania was composed by a Romanian composer?! Many Albanian intellectuals have lived and worked in Romania ??!).

It also should be mentioned that Vetevendosje Movement is not so popular as some of its leaders hope to be among K Albanians - and there are several reasons for this, including the radicalism of the group ("Out with internationals from Kosovo" is translated by many citizens as "Out with all internationals, including US, from Kosovo!", therefore unacceptable) and also the fact that they are young (maybe except the leader, Kurti) and were not involved in the KLA war. Actually, a lot of common people in Kosovo told me that they see Vetevendosje as (and I quote an interlocutor) "a bunch of crazy teenagers who like to play with big words, while everybody knows that the real power here belongs to people with big guns, aka. ex-KLA members".

However, the reports of Intl. Prosecutor Robert Dean are quite clear about the lack of coordination among UNMIK officials responsible in dealing with such situations. Also, it is emphasized in the reports that UNMIK International Police (they were also Polish and Ukrainian Police at that place) should not have been used on 10 February, because Kosovo Police Service has enough manpower and experience to deal with such situations (there are some units called ROSU in KPS, Regional Operative Special Units, which proved to be very effective in such situations but were not used on 10 February, for unknown reasons). As a side note, I believe it is sad that after 8 years of Intl. Community efforts in training and capacity-building of KPS, those people are not let to do their job and internationals are still in charge with such crises. I was told by different people different reasons for this, including that UNMIK lost confidence in KPS in March 2004, when significant numbers of KPS officers simply joined the rioters Kosovo wide.

The poor coordination with KPS was one of the reasons for not only the UN Police Commissioner resigned, but also the Chief of Kosovo's Minister of Interior. It was a joint failure in dealing with the protest (which was announced as “peaceful” but very quickly became a violent one, I’ve seen footage from the spot).

Also, an important thing is connected with general UN policies regarding street riots control. The enquiry discovered that national contingents forming UNMIK Police are not sharing a common policy and protocol in regarding the usage of rubber bullets. So, what may be legal in Romania or Poland or Ukraine may not be the standard UN procedure, or the Kosovo Police Service procedures.

Last but not least, it seems that Romanians are “benefiting” in all this debate from the fact that Romania is seen as opposing Kosovo independence, therefore an “easy” target for the local media, which frames the protesters as heroes (as if they were simple bystanders) and blames UNMIK generally for everything bad happening in Kosovo (in this very case, K Albanian media is acting as if the protesters were not trying to attack Kosovo institutions and buildings together with international ones in Pristina).

Considering Romania’s position regarding Kosova and its statusand its status and, its position toward BG (even during the Milosevic rule), we should not allow any of them being part of the UN, OSCE, NATO or EU mission, simply declaring Romanian officials in these organizations as “persona non grata”.

Anothercanadian,

I completely agree with you.
Anyway, we can not compare behaviors of an organized and hierarchic institution such are police units and protesters coming from different places, eventually with different intentions etc.

To predictor:
Are you really serious when saying these words???

"Considering Romania’s position regarding Kosova and its statusand its status and, its position toward BG (even during the Milosevic rule), we should not allow any of them being part of the UN, OSCE, NATO or EU mission, simply declaring Romanian officials in these organizations as “persona non grata”.

This lines are resulting from a combination of:
30% insolence
30% lack of wisdom
30% lack of gratitude
10% the complex of "Albanians are never guilty; always the others are responsible for everything".

Maybe you should remember that Kosovo is where it is today, i.e. closer than never to its independence, not only due to US and UK or Germany, but also due to Romanians (and Bulgarians, Slovakians, Spaniards, Greeks and many others) as those countries also supported the NATO bombings on Milosevic forces in 1999.

To all Albanians posting on this forum: please understand that such statements like Mr. predictor makes are damaging for your own image. Moreover, you are losing friends, whom you may need in the future. 10 February 2007 was a sad day because two people died. But to transform this incident in a basis for the what Mr. predictor is proposing is very wrong.

Mr. predictor, you are on a wrong path, and if Kosovo Albanians in charge in Pristina are thinking like you do, then you really have a problem.

By the way, Mr. predictor, I am curious to know what is your proposal for the Russians serving in International organizations active in Kosovo... What about Slovakians, Greeks, Spaniards, Cypriots? And if tomorrow Germany or Sweden will not support Kosovo independence, you will launch the same proposal regarding their citizens?
And what about the US policemen, Danish and French KFOR soldiers who did shoot and killed Albanian rioters on March 2004, in various parts of Kosovo? Or the lives of more than ten Albanians killed back then are not worth enough to spoil relations with countries sympathetic toward the cause of independent Kosovo...

Well, as some food for thought, please read here an excerpt from the International Crisis Group (American think-thank) Report on March 2004 riots in Kosovo:

“[On 24 March 2004] Remarkably, the Kosovo Albanians celebrated the 24 March 1999 beginning of NATO's bombing of the Serbs on their behalf on auto-pilot. Pre-prepared TV footage was broadcast of 1999 liberation scenes just days after mobs had launched sustained attacks on NATO soldiers, injuring dozens of them; street billboards and full-page newspaper advertisements pronounced the anniversary message: "Thank you NATO"! President Rugova delivered a solemn congratulatory address. The obituary pages of the 24 March newspapers printed row upon row of portraits of Albanian children (especially children), women and men killed by the Serbian forces in 1999. This was a society in denial, clinging desperately to its own sense of victimisation and the heady days when it was briefly the world's darling.”
If they really want to have a good future, I believe Kosovo Albanians should leave this state of denial and assume some responsibilities, inter alia learning not to attack those who contributed in their salvation.

To Predictor

Did you CAREFULY read my comment?

Noli why are you still here shooting off your mouth? You were never in Iraq and why bring up Blackwater? This is discussion about Romanians and Kosovo Riots. Don't Hijack threads. If you were in Iraq you were there with a Serbian Passport probably and furthermore you should not comment on stuff you know nothing about if you were not at the scene of this blackwater mess then you don't know what happen. So you think Kosovo should be in the EU just because they are in Europe, well sir, Turkey has a much better economy than Kosovo and it is not there because of human rights violations this is the reason why. So there sir, i think you should do more research before posting. To join the EU you have to be able to contribute not go there looking for a hand out.

Noli you said:
Did you CAREFULY read my comment?
(Noli, 9. October 2007 01:56)

No I did not, as was not worth of. I mean was not of reading carefully! Why? Let me explain why:
You said: “Tell me what happened in the US when word got out that BLACKWATER Security allegedly killed 20 Iraqis and were flown back to US because they are immune to Iraqi Prosecution?”
First of all, if you have any knowledge of the law regulation and rules, you should be aware that, that “analogy” is not institute that is allowed to be used when criminal law is in question! Not even taking as a precedent as you did in this case!
Secondly, you speak about the immunity! You should be aware that immunity of the UNMIK members is not unlimited, are you? Additionally, immunity of the UNMIK members, individually or collectively (meaning on the groups of them not mission wide), can be taken off by even SG or SRSG at any time (remember UNHCR international mission member rape case?). That’s actually the main reason why the Romanian police went back to Romania very soon after the incident!

TO: Unknown Comic

Well I was doing a comparison between 2 separate incident which resulted in loss of human lives and dealing with aftermath, where in case of BLACKWATER even before investigations were over they called on congressional hearing. In the other incident Romania didn’t do anything! Got my point so far? In case you didn’t I’m going to take my precious time to enlighten you…Its taking responsibility for your actions. Holding people accountable. It’s very irrelevant if I was at the scene or not (Didn’t claim I was at the scene)I was not assessing the Baghdad incident. I commented VERY CLEARLY...So for those of you with the lack of basic reading skills there is nothing I can do. Read carefully and try to get the concept out of the comment.

Predictor, if you want to to give me a lesson on English and correct my technical mistakes, fine but apparently you missed my point again so I’m going to try to simplify that for you and everyone else:

Bottom line: THERE IS NO IMMUNITY THAT SHOULD/WOULD PROTECT PEOPLE/OFFICIALS WHEN COMMITING A CRIME(S)! I hope this is clear enough!

Now, accept my apologies for my earlier comments that referred to you …I was mislead by George’s response to you. I should have not made a mistake you did in your last comment. It does also not mean that I agree with everything you say…Declaring Romanians “NON-GRATA” in this case. If we wanted to do something like that we would have to do that with a lot of others too, with which I totally agree, if you want to satisfy your inner anger (mine too). I think that’s hardly the way! Again, if you have second thoughts about my comment I recommend you read it ones again:

Bottom line: THERE IS NO IMMUNITY THAT SHOULD/WOULD PROTECT PEOPLE/OFFICIALS WHEN COMMITING A CRIME(S)! I hope this is clear enough!

And you were right about me having no idea who I was discussing with and friends stuff. No hard feelings

Noli you are a real smart guy, if you know so much about Blackwater then you must have been on the convoy that got shot up. No they did not fly anyone back to the US they just change there tactics. unforuntaely you don't know what you are talking about. I wish you did have a creidible comment but you don't so you just talk about Romanian PeaceKeepers and Blackwater. Romania will still on the Map and so will Blackwater. I will just ignore you post from now on since you know so much about Iraq and work there for so long. You tell us how it is in Baghdad or whereever your are based. Bottom line when you think you can damage private property and run rampant over established authority you learn fast that KFOR will not put up with craziness.

Noli,

To my understanding MSU falls under the command structure of KFOR and the idea that KFOR responded properly goes along with KFOR contingency plans, which I am sure you are not privy to.

I served 22 moths in Kosovo becuase after my initial tour of 12 months I was graciously granted an extension because I enjoyed my work there.

It is very easy for anyone on these boards to second guess the work of policeman and soldiers who are out there every day dealing with threats . Things happen in the 'fog of war', rubber bullets, like other 'non-lethal munitions' are not very accurate. Once again because MSU is part of the KFOR command structure and not the UN one there are different SOPs. The idea that the bullets could be expired never came out while I was in Kosovo, but I chalk this up to the fog of war too. I have been very critical of the KFOR structure, organization, and response and that shows a lapse. Trainings in riot control does have SOPs, but these vary by nation, not properly enforced at a KFOR level, and I am willing to bet the outcome could have went a hundred different ways depending which nation you put in that situation.

I did not claim that I was there that day, I said I was an observer at Camp Clarke in MTNF-C and witnessed KFOR contingency plans being drawn up, KFOR intel reports on the 'self determination' movement, and reports from the MSU on the ground.

It is very easy for one of the high minded UN arm chair generals to evaluate the actions and decisions made under duress and under threat.

Myabe, if the Romanians behaved a little more humanely towards the population they would be treated fairly, but taken the problems they created with that murder not too long ago, nobody really likes them. Nobody likes them period.
Beside, Albanians know what their attitude is as far as the stance on Independence.

What is trying to do that Romanian commander?

Peter Sudyka,
I have read few of your comments and even though you never liked the idea of Kosovo to be independent,I won't hate you,but I won't agree with your comments!
You are writing all the time about"EU is not happy to have a country like this or like that,you are telling K-Albanians to behave in the future",etc.
That's fair enough!
In 2004,all then EU countries opened the door to the new EU Members.
While majority of then EU countries, still won't allow the new members of EU to work,UK allowed that!!!
And what happened,around 3 million Eastern Europians are now working in UK and 90% are Poles!
In the first year they worked hard.Now, they won't go back to their country,they are abusing the system!
They are claiming Child Benefit for the children born in Poland,when they rent the house,they don't show the right number of tenants,in some cases eight people sleep in one room,the crime is higher and I think UK made a mistake by letting such a big number of new EU States to work in UK!
K-Albanians are not "Angels",but K-Albanians are in Europe and they should be excepted by EU!!!

This article is terribly misleading. The demonstrators on the 10th did not "storm government premises". The protesters walked into a police cordon that blocked the street for a non-violent march. The police reacted with firing teargas and rubber bullets 11 years out of date at close range to the head of protesters.
No investigation has "revealed that the Romanians acted according to regulations and law". Instead, investigations have revealed that the police reaction was unnecessary, avoidable, disproportionate and unlawful. Due to this, the use of rubber bullets is now banned in all UN operations. The main investigation report on the incident, the Dean report, also blamed operational chaos and an unclear chain of command for the death and injuries. Despite identifying Romanian police as the source of the deadly shots, the report could not identify individual gunners.
B92 should change this article immediately according to the facts outlined above.

They got away very easy killing two Albanian protesters using out of date rubber bullets and now they ask why we disslike them.

Albanian EXTREMIST? Vetëvendosje is a movement NOTHING to do with killing or bombing anyone. Your racist tone is more and more appearant every day.

Two Romanian soldiers kill Albanians and you call us extremists? Those soldiers had no right to point their guns at PEOPLE's heads, it's called protocol.

The free media should have the right to portray the Romanian soldiers as barbaric or w/e it wants to portray them as.

Albanians inciting hate and distorting reality through the printed word...NO WAY!!!!

Peter Sudyka,

no we are saying that Kosovars don't like Romanian "peace keepers" bc they shot at civilians (right in the head).

Protocols say that they are only allowed to shoot no higher than chest.

Once Independent, Kosova/o will be able to influence and pick and choose which countries will have piecekeepers on the ground.
No Russians, Romanians, Slovakians, Greek and cyprus!!!

Louie,
You are absolutely right in your last comment. I am Albanians but I live and work in the UK. Some people here don't want to hear the truth especially when it is not a sweet one.

perhaps, the UNMIK-authorities should take a little bit more care of those albanian media-services in Kosovo ..they have also incited the 2004 pogroms against Serbs on the basis of false accusations...

who is in charge, actually? who does not take care about albanian extremism here?

They also released names of innocent Serbs. Thats not a paper that is a government tool. Clean propaganda machine that has never cited its sources for any of their articles.

B92: Comments which include insults, indecencies, racial or national hate messages and intolerance of any kind will not be published. Hateful words are not allowed on B92’s site.

AND NOW, TAKE A LOOK:

Albanians inciting hate and distorting reality through the printed word...NO WAY!!!!
(vrnjak, 7. October 2007 16:26)

I forgot to add one more thing. Because regulations/protocols were not followed UNMIK Police Comisioner was fired and Romanian Riot Police was sent back home. They could not be prosecuted in Kosovo becuase the have Diplomatic Imunity...prety much similar to the story of the BLACKWATEr in Iraq. So using little common sence which I think all of you have, you wont need to long to come up with a conclusion on who was right and who was wrong. Thank you!

So does that mean Romania is not permitted to have reservations with regards to Kosovo independence? If they voice something different, does that make them enemies of the people of Kosovo or something?

This desperation of the Albanians is becoming troublesome, I don't think the EU will want such a country in its ranks.

"# Myabe, if the Romanians behaved a little more humanely towards the population they would be treated fairly, but taken the problems they created with that murder not too long ago, nobody really likes them. Nobody likes them period.
Beside, Albanians know what their attitude is as far as the stance on Independence.
(lazer, 7. October 2007 16:05)"

So because Romania is against independence, you are saying that nobody likes them? So does that mean Greek, Slovakian, Cypriot and Spanish peacekeepers in Kosovo are also in danger of retaliation because they don't like the idea of an independent Kosovo?

Us Albanians need to be fair and stop pointing the finger at everyone.

"What I wanted to explain to you that K-Albanians are from Europe and no matter what kind of impression you have regarding us as a nation,EU is "stucked" with us!!! "

Of course Albanians have the right to the EU, the are as European as anyone else, I was merely referring to this mentality of threatening or endangering people who do not agree with your world-view, and that it is all.

"Everyone dreams to join EU,I want Kosovo and Serbia to join the EU,but how long it will last!!! "

Both have the right and inevitably they will be, I am only of the opinion that under Serbia, they will enter quicker. The quicker the better, this is my opinion, one thing the EU does give is great opportunities to develop as a person, I know this very well.

To George:

First of all I’m sorry to see intellectual people (that’s what you think you are and probably are) react to ignorant, provocating Predictors comments. He does not deserve your attention. He doesn’t deserve anyone’s attention...but let’s leave him aside and concentrate on the issue of losing friends;

First of all Kosovo didn’t get close to independence because Romania, Greece and Slovaks. You mentioned that they were part of NATO alliance and bombed Serbia etc etc. I have to disagree with you on that! All the above mentioned countries rejected the idea of bombing Serbia except Bulgaria. NATO did not launch any attacks on Serbia from any of these countries. There is no NATO base in Slovakia and Romania and Greece didn’t agree to take part. NATO Troops were attacked in Greece! Bulgaria did not take part on bombing but provided its airspace. Just because we have reservations toward these countries does not mean we hate them, taking into account statements coming from Slovakia, Greece (who are pretty much same as US to Serbia). Do you know Greeks have boots (military troops) on ground in Kosovo? Was there any Greek soldier ever attacked including March Riots? NEGATIVE...none. Was there any Slovak soldier ever attacked? NOPE. Now everybody knows how Albanians feel about Russians and they didn’t hesitate to say that loud...Do you know what they did with them? Well they got attacked a lot which resulted in 2 Russian casualties. Was that right even thou they don’t like us? NOPE it wasn’t right! Are you getting my point?

Now if we start loosing friends because of people like predictor we didn`t/don`t need them to begin with. People know who we are and how we feel. Come on people we are all grown-ups here, so lets behave appropriate and use our brain that lord gave us to think.

Now regarding Romanians;
You probably watch news and are up to date with on international affairs. Tell me what happened in the US when word got out that BLACKWATER Security allegedly killed 20 Iraqis and were flown back to US because they are immune to Iraqi Prosecution? Well, a lot of people started asking questions...Can you just shoot people and not be held accountable for? Of course not. Let me enlighten you in case you don’t know what happened. There was a congressional hearing because of that incident. People from BLACKWATER were GRILLED for 5 hours straight, in front of congress not to mention US Diplomatic Corps responsible for them! Now what have we learned from this...Well, if you shoot people you have to answer questions, Iraq, US, does not matter! Now, what have Romanians done so far regarding that issue? NOTHING! Do you think they could write a letter of condolence to the families of those 2 guys? Do you think they could have told everyone that CASE IS BEING INVESTIGATED? Failing to do that is pretty bad especially for a EU member state who calls on countries around the world to respect human rights and all that. The same EU member states that attack every US policy regarding Terrorism and Detainees. I mean I’m confused....Help me to understand this! Just because Romania is an EU member means that we can’t ask questions because we can piss our friends off? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not in favor of grilling Romanians and I don’t believe those guys wanted to kill anyone that day but if they want to teach Serb and Albanians about respecting human rights this is hardly the way...and they should not be wondering when they find themselves in the middle of the violent riot. Albanian or Serb. Everybody should be accountable for its actions PERIOD!
Thank you for taking your time to read this long coment.

Noli from KOSOVO, recently returned from Iraq

P.S.:Would apprectiate any coment input on my coment! Honestly...

Ron wrote: “Of course I hate to see people dying.
But Albanians were attacking UN persons. Why?"
Yes, Albanians had attacked the UN(police officers), but they were unarmed and it was crystal clear that there was no threat from deadly force. But, Romanians p.officers, they used the rubber bullets aiming on the prohibited zones(head and chest)causing deadly wounds on the demonstrators. They killed them. See for these the international” Basic principles for the use of force and firearms for law enforcement officials". Rubber bullets is to be considered as an intermediate weapon and not deadly force weapon.
ANTHONY: you are not a US soldier, but nevertheless, if you as an US soldier will react same way as Romanians did on Albanians, the rest of your life you could spent on the death row.

is there or is there not illegal incitement against these people, or are they lying? are you in kosovo aware that this is NOT how young democracies work? do you even want a democracy?

Well after 2004 what do u expect them to do. Allow it to escalate?

I guess the Albanians picked that notion up from Bush, "Your either with us, or against us". A very democratic way of viewing things, I must say.

louie

Well to begin with, the only two countries where the new member states are not allowed to work legally are France and Germany (until 2011 I believe).

About the Poles in the UK, you talk mostly of uneducated workers going off to do physical labor in the UK, to earn money so they can have a lot more quicker back in Poland, because the UK economy is stronger than that of Poland and so is the currency.

However, to blame the crime entirely on Poles in the UK is not fair, there are masses of other nationalities in the UK (Turks, Pakistanis, colonials from Africa, the Caribbean, India etc.), and while yes, Polish workers have been known to live like squatters, drink too much etc., but I one thing you don't hear of is this extremism and violence evident in Kosovo by the Kosovar Albanians, NLA, KLA etc., that is all I was saying.

Well , in Romania not everybody thinks they are innocent. IF they where guilty they should receive punishment.Maybe it really wasn`t their fault. Idon`t know it.

I was a US KFOR soldier stationed at Bondsteel from Sep 2005 - May 2007. I was in MNTF - C at Camp Clarke the night of the Vetevendosje protests in Pristina.

The Irish were on high alert because Vetevendosje is a radical and extremist group that is trying to incite the ignorant youth of Kosovo against minorities and UNMIK.

This reality is recognized by KFOR and the UN. The PISG pretends they do not support Vetevendosje but the bottom line is that groups says and does things that the intl community would not accept from Ceku and Sediju.

The protesters became very violent and belligerent during the march and UNMIK - P, KPS, and KFOR responded with appropriate, reasonable, necessary, and proportional force to dissipate the threat.

Kim, I agree that the article is misleading, but your comment is somewhat misleading too. From all accounts, the protest was not calm and peaceful, as your portrayal of it would have us believe. The Dean report says: "Police used tear gas and rubber bullets when about 3,000 protesters tried to break through police lines to reach government buildings. Film footage showed the protestors throwing stones and other heavy objects at police, including wooden placards.

In an investigation published on 23 February, Balkan Insight revealed that UN police had opened fire and continued to fire while advancing towards the protesters, even when it was apparent the crowd was retreating."

So there were excesses on both sides. The police did not fire without provocation, into a peaceful group of protesters. On the other hand, the fact that at least some of the protesters were violent does not exonerate the Romanian gunners.

I guess the Albanians picked that notion up from Bush, "Your either with us, or against us". A very democratic way of viewing things, I must say.
(CoscoVo, 7. October 2007 18:15)


^^^^ this is coming from a person who pounds his chest at the sound of "1389" and "Serb".

I bet the Serbian population are the proudest/nationalistic ethnicity in Europe, period.

With us or against us should be your moto.

On 10 of February 2007,Romanian gendarmes had used the unjustified deadly force against the unarmed demonstrators. Until the Romanian government doesn't punish their police officers who killed two of our Albanian brothers, I (w)e will treat them as killers.

louie, I doubt if many people who have lived in London for any long length of time would blame Poles for the high crime rate. Polish workers especially builders are renowned in England for doing quality work at reasonable cost. I dont want to point out any other immigrant communities as contributing disproportionately to the high crime rate because its not necessary because most people know who they are, and they're not from europe. Its a fact.

I am an “International” (Polish) working in Kosovo, I have arrived immediately after 10 February events. I deal on daily basis with Kosovo Albanians, from officials to common people. I must say that nobody even mentioned the 10 February case as a reason of hating Romanians, generally or particularly those present in Kosovo. K Albanians are more concerned with the fact that Romania is not supporting Kosovo independence, despite the fact that (as I was told) Romanians have helped a lot the Albanians in the past centuries (the National Anthem of Albania was composed by a Romanian composer?! Many Albanian intellectuals have lived and worked in Romania ??!).

It also should be mentioned that Vetevendosje Movement is not so popular as some of its leaders hope to be among K Albanians - and there are several reasons for this, including the radicalism of the group ("Out with internationals from Kosovo" is translated by many citizens as "Out with all internationals, including US, from Kosovo!", therefore unacceptable) and also the fact that they are young (maybe except the leader, Kurti) and were not involved in the KLA war. Actually, a lot of common people in Kosovo told me that they see Vetevendosje as (and I quote an interlocutor) "a bunch of crazy teenagers who like to play with big words, while everybody knows that the real power here belongs to people with big guns, aka. ex-KLA members".

However, the reports of Intl. Prosecutor Robert Dean are quite clear about the lack of coordination among UNMIK officials responsible in dealing with such situations. Also, it is emphasized in the reports that UNMIK International Police (they were also Polish and Ukrainian Police at that place) should not have been used on 10 February, because Kosovo Police Service has enough manpower and experience to deal with such situations (there are some units called ROSU in KPS, Regional Operative Special Units, which proved to be very effective in such situations but were not used on 10 February, for unknown reasons). As a side note, I believe it is sad that after 8 years of Intl. Community efforts in training and capacity-building of KPS, those people are not let to do their job and internationals are still in charge with such crises. I was told by different people different reasons for this, including that UNMIK lost confidence in KPS in March 2004, when significant numbers of KPS officers simply joined the rioters Kosovo wide.

The poor coordination with KPS was one of the reasons for not only the UN Police Commissioner resigned, but also the Chief of Kosovo's Minister of Interior. It was a joint failure in dealing with the protest (which was announced as “peaceful” but very quickly became a violent one, I’ve seen footage from the spot).

Also, an important thing is connected with general UN policies regarding street riots control. The enquiry discovered that national contingents forming UNMIK Police are not sharing a common policy and protocol in regarding the usage of rubber bullets. So, what may be legal in Romania or Poland or Ukraine may not be the standard UN procedure, or the Kosovo Police Service procedures.

Last but not least, it seems that Romanians are “benefiting” in all this debate from the fact that Romania is seen as opposing Kosovo independence, therefore an “easy” target for the local media, which frames the protesters as heroes (as if they were simple bystanders) and blames UNMIK generally for everything bad happening in Kosovo (in this very case, K Albanian media is acting as if the protesters were not trying to attack Kosovo institutions and buildings together with international ones in Pristina).

Considering Romania’s position regarding Kosova and its statusand its status and, its position toward BG (even during the Milosevic rule), we should not allow any of them being part of the UN, OSCE, NATO or EU mission, simply declaring Romanian officials in these organizations as “persona non grata”.

Anothercanadian,

I completely agree with you.
Anyway, we can not compare behaviors of an organized and hierarchic institution such are police units and protesters coming from different places, eventually with different intentions etc.

A REPLY YO ANTHONY, the "US KFOR SOLDIER"

Anthony, I am one of the inside guys (for the lack of the better term) who knows how things SHOULD work. I am sory I cant say more to that but read carefuly what I have to say:
Nobody denies that protesters were violent.Everybody knows that. You said, quote "KFOR RESPONDED WITH APPROPRITAE FORCE....."

i.I dont think you are certified to to EVALUATE if Romanian Riot Police used excessive force or not, knowing the fact that Internal Investigations (the certified guys who are not Kosovo Albanians) determined that Romanians DID NOT FOLLOW protocol/rules for use of force. Thats why someone had to be held accountable. In this case UNMIK Police Commisioner was fired.
ii.KFOR did not respond. They were not to respond. The only ones that were supposed to and did respond were Kosovo Police Service, SPU (Romanians) and MSU (Italian Carabinieri). This tells me ones again that you have NOTHING TO DO with KFOR and you were not even close to the protests.

iii.Rubber bullets are NOT ALOWED in UN Missions thats what their SOP (Standars of Operations) says. Even if they were allowed to use them, the ammunition they used (the rubber bullets) were EXPIRED, which means they cant be used!

iv. If you are really who you claim you are you should also know that quote "THEY SHALL NOT BE AIMED ABOVE CHEST...." in this case rubber bullets. Do you know how these two guys died in the protest? HEAD WOUNDS INFLICTED BY RUBBER BULLETS...So if someone gets 2 in their head you cant tell me that Romanians used appropriate force. Thats how these 2 protesters died.

v.If you were really a US KFOR Soldier explain to me how come you were stationed in Kosovo from 2005-2007? We all know that tour of duty is 12 months. If indeed you were a US KFOR Soldier you should have undergone a Riot Control Training (the one i have undergone). One part of that training explains EXCATLY how NON-LETHAL WEAPONS are to be used, in this case rubber bullets. It`s something called RULES FOR USE OF FORCE which clearly states that those things should not be aimed BELLOW CHEST ONLY...Thats why they call them NON-LETHAL so nobody dies! Comments are wellcome

To predictor:
Are you really serious when saying these words???

"Considering Romania’s position regarding Kosova and its statusand its status and, its position toward BG (even during the Milosevic rule), we should not allow any of them being part of the UN, OSCE, NATO or EU mission, simply declaring Romanian officials in these organizations as “persona non grata”.

This lines are resulting from a combination of:
30% insolence
30% lack of wisdom
30% lack of gratitude
10% the complex of "Albanians are never guilty; always the others are responsible for everything".

Maybe you should remember that Kosovo is where it is today, i.e. closer than never to its independence, not only due to US and UK or Germany, but also due to Romanians (and Bulgarians, Slovakians, Spaniards, Greeks and many others) as those countries also supported the NATO bombings on Milosevic forces in 1999.

To all Albanians posting on this forum: please understand that such statements like Mr. predictor makes are damaging for your own image. Moreover, you are losing friends, whom you may need in the future. 10 February 2007 was a sad day because two people died. But to transform this incident in a basis for the what Mr. predictor is proposing is very wrong.

Mr. predictor, you are on a wrong path, and if Kosovo Albanians in charge in Pristina are thinking like you do, then you really have a problem.

By the way, Mr. predictor, I am curious to know what is your proposal for the Russians serving in International organizations active in Kosovo... What about Slovakians, Greeks, Spaniards, Cypriots? And if tomorrow Germany or Sweden will not support Kosovo independence, you will launch the same proposal regarding their citizens?
And what about the US policemen, Danish and French KFOR soldiers who did shoot and killed Albanian rioters on March 2004, in various parts of Kosovo? Or the lives of more than ten Albanians killed back then are not worth enough to spoil relations with countries sympathetic toward the cause of independent Kosovo...

Well, as some food for thought, please read here an excerpt from the International Crisis Group (American think-thank) Report on March 2004 riots in Kosovo:

“[On 24 March 2004] Remarkably, the Kosovo Albanians celebrated the 24 March 1999 beginning of NATO's bombing of the Serbs on their behalf on auto-pilot. Pre-prepared TV footage was broadcast of 1999 liberation scenes just days after mobs had launched sustained attacks on NATO soldiers, injuring dozens of them; street billboards and full-page newspaper advertisements pronounced the anniversary message: "Thank you NATO"! President Rugova delivered a solemn congratulatory address. The obituary pages of the 24 March newspapers printed row upon row of portraits of Albanian children (especially children), women and men killed by the Serbian forces in 1999. This was a society in denial, clinging desperately to its own sense of victimisation and the heady days when it was briefly the world's darling.”
If they really want to have a good future, I believe Kosovo Albanians should leave this state of denial and assume some responsibilities, inter alia learning not to attack those who contributed in their salvation.

Ofcourse I hate to see people dying.

But Albaninas were attacking UN persons. Why?

Albanians should ACCEPT they live in Serbia. An focus their energy on reintegrating in Serbia.

No demonstrations are needed then.

The deal was autonomy.
Ofcourse UN/EU should stay there to help ALL Kosovars.

But Albanians must stop complaining. The deal was autonomy. Stop crying for independence and get a life!

Welcome in Europe!

This desperation of the Albanians is becoming troublesome, I don't think the EU will want such a country in its ranks.
(Peter Sudyka, 7. October 2007 15:41)
Dear Peter,
the only reason in my previous comment I mentioned the influx of new EU countries to UK is to reply to your comments above.
In no way the rise of crime in UK is down to Poles,I apologise if I have upset you.
What I wanted to explain to you that K-Albanians are from Europe and no matter what kind of impression you have regarding us as a nation,EU is "stucked" with us!!!
I consider Balkan Nations almost the same.We have to "thank" Turkish for letting us behind decades from real Europians.
Just watch the news in Balkans,
every day killings are happening,protests,etc.This is typical Balkans.Whenever the Turks were,there are still problems.
The things I am writing now are not relevant to you,but I am really sad about the situation in Balkans.
In every country corruption is high that you would be crazy to invest in these countries.
I think some of the new EU countries joined a bit early or maybe unprepared.
I don't believe on EU as a long investment.There are to many different nations,languages,cultures,etc.I don't think so it will work.
They want to "copy" USA,but Americans are dreamers and they believe in themselves,while us in Balkans,we only dream!
Everyone dreams to join EU,I want Kosovo and Serbia to join the EU,but how long it will last!!!
Peace and Love!

NEWSFLASH if there were not a demostration that incited violence would not even be discussing rubber bullet or romanians. Just because some jackass ran his mouth and incited a riot cause the death of those two people. They figured Romanian KFOR would run like usual but stood there ground and use approriate force. I don't care what Noli or any other person who says there was too much force. Yeah right put yourself in there shoes and what would you do stand there and get beat or killed. Wrong answer if people respected the law and troops sent there to protect them from the Serbs and decide well we will do what we want learn a terrible lesson. Two people lost there lives for what someone else's agenda? You can flame me all you want but none of your poster do not know what you were talking about. Shooting off your mouth about something you don't know what happen because YOU WERE NOT THERE. Leave this subject alone and have respect for those who lost there lives. Did US KFOR shoot rubber bullets at Serb Protesters in Mitrovica? The protest threw rocks and got tear gassed. Some KFOR injuries but they got the picture. Just like those people who thought Romanians would run, remember folks you cannot do as you want no matter what country you are in.

Noli: you wrote:
“First of all I’m sorry to see intellectual people (that’s what you think you are and probably are) react to ignorant, provocating Predictors comments. He does not deserve your attention. He doesn’t deserve anyone’s attention...but let’s leave him aside and concentrate on the issue of losing friends;”

I can clearly see your impartiality intentions. But, obviously you did not have a chance to read George’s earlier comments; I can quote him to you now:
- “I can assure Kosovo Albanians that Romania will never recognize an independent Kosovo (meaning here in self declaration – apparently, because if EU consensus is reached they can simply not react differently).
- ”I really hope that Brussels will not ask us EU people (meaning here in Romania) to jump whenever US wants that from us”,
- “Romania was the country that assisted US in Iraq war”
- “Maybe you should remember that Kosovo is where it is today, i.e. closer than never to its independence, not only due to US and UK or Germany, but also due to Romanians (and Bulgarians, Slovakians, Spaniards, Greeks and many others) as those countries also supported the NATO bombings on Milosevic forces in 1999.” By George

I apologize to George if I did not quote him word by word as I couldn’t remember all, but the meaning is right. You can clearly see at first that he is coming in contradiction with him self, and I do not want to comment that any longer.

George,

I am just curious, why are you mentioning these countries: Romanians (and Bulgarians, Slovakians, Spaniards, Greeks? EU is much bigger, right?

Noli
Do you still believe in Santa Claus? Obviously you do, as you still believe that you can solve the Kosova problem commenting here with people whom you don’t even know, imagining them as intellectuals or even friends!

To Predictor

Did you CAREFULY read my comment?

Noli why are you still here shooting off your mouth? You were never in Iraq and why bring up Blackwater? This is discussion about Romanians and Kosovo Riots. Don't Hijack threads. If you were in Iraq you were there with a Serbian Passport probably and furthermore you should not comment on stuff you know nothing about if you were not at the scene of this blackwater mess then you don't know what happen. So you think Kosovo should be in the EU just because they are in Europe, well sir, Turkey has a much better economy than Kosovo and it is not there because of human rights violations this is the reason why. So there sir, i think you should do more research before posting. To join the EU you have to be able to contribute not go there looking for a hand out.

Noli you said:
Did you CAREFULY read my comment?
(Noli, 9. October 2007 01:56)

No I did not, as was not worth of. I mean was not of reading carefully! Why? Let me explain why:
You said: “Tell me what happened in the US when word got out that BLACKWATER Security allegedly killed 20 Iraqis and were flown back to US because they are immune to Iraqi Prosecution?”
First of all, if you have any knowledge of the law regulation and rules, you should be aware that, that “analogy” is not institute that is allowed to be used when criminal law is in question! Not even taking as a precedent as you did in this case!
Secondly, you speak about the immunity! You should be aware that immunity of the UNMIK members is not unlimited, are you? Additionally, immunity of the UNMIK members, individually or collectively (meaning on the groups of them not mission wide), can be taken off by even SG or SRSG at any time (remember UNHCR international mission member rape case?). That’s actually the main reason why the Romanian police went back to Romania very soon after the incident!

TO: Unknown Comic

Well I was doing a comparison between 2 separate incident which resulted in loss of human lives and dealing with aftermath, where in case of BLACKWATER even before investigations were over they called on congressional hearing. In the other incident Romania didn’t do anything! Got my point so far? In case you didn’t I’m going to take my precious time to enlighten you…Its taking responsibility for your actions. Holding people accountable. It’s very irrelevant if I was at the scene or not (Didn’t claim I was at the scene)I was not assessing the Baghdad incident. I commented VERY CLEARLY...So for those of you with the lack of basic reading skills there is nothing I can do. Read carefully and try to get the concept out of the comment.

Predictor, if you want to to give me a lesson on English and correct my technical mistakes, fine but apparently you missed my point again so I’m going to try to simplify that for you and everyone else:

Bottom line: THERE IS NO IMMUNITY THAT SHOULD/WOULD PROTECT PEOPLE/OFFICIALS WHEN COMMITING A CRIME(S)! I hope this is clear enough!

Now, accept my apologies for my earlier comments that referred to you …I was mislead by George’s response to you. I should have not made a mistake you did in your last comment. It does also not mean that I agree with everything you say…Declaring Romanians “NON-GRATA” in this case. If we wanted to do something like that we would have to do that with a lot of others too, with which I totally agree, if you want to satisfy your inner anger (mine too). I think that’s hardly the way! Again, if you have second thoughts about my comment I recommend you read it ones again:

Bottom line: THERE IS NO IMMUNITY THAT SHOULD/WOULD PROTECT PEOPLE/OFFICIALS WHEN COMMITING A CRIME(S)! I hope this is clear enough!

And you were right about me having no idea who I was discussing with and friends stuff. No hard feelings

To Predictor, and Noli, from George:

Predictor, please do not mislead Noli and others quoting me in a selective way, especially that I have already answered your accusation of contradiction on 28 Sept.
Both of you may check the respective post on the B92 story titled “Tadic Kosovo compromise has no alternative” of 26 September 2007, it is the last one on the webpage.

Also, regarding the issue of self-proclaimed independence, the key word in my previous post (of 28 Sept.) was "unilaterally". I was saying: "you [Kosovo Albanians] may proclaim unilaterally the Kosovo independence on daily basis after December 10, but don't expect to be accepted and considered as valid, at least not by Romania!"

I think everybody agrees on this scenario, that if Kosovo proclaims its independence without the official backing of EU, some countries in EU will step back from their position, even countries who are now favourable to Kosovo independence. The problem is not the outcome – independence – but how it is obtained, i.e. trough self-proclamation without approval of EU, or by consensus reached within EU.

Of course that Romania will abide by any UN decision on Kosovo (if there will be one, it seems not after the Russians veto threat), and also will go along with EU common political decison on this issue. I dare to say Bucharest is not considering Kosovo issue so important to jeopardize it’s relations within EU by being the only one to oppose a EU common voice on this issue. In other words, we are realist people, so if all the other agree, we will join them. Hope Kosovo Albanians will not take it personally, because it is not.

From this perspective, Pristina should be worried more about Spain, Greece and Cyprus, who are having direct problems (you all have seen the recent developments in Spain, regarding ETA and its political wing, people arrested, violent protests etc.) and also a more powerful voice inside EU. Romania’s concern is related to the possible usage of a Kosovo precedent by Russia against Moldavia Republic, in the Transdniestr separatists case, because we recognized Moldavia Republic in its constitutional borders and we support them as such. As for Transilvania, often mentioned, this is a solved issue already, Hungarian minority political party is part of the Bucharest Govt. for years, Budapest and Bucharest governments have joint sessions each year, Open Sky Treaty, etc. By the way, that’s one of the reasons we were admitted into EU.

Predictor, regarding your question:
“I am just curious, why are you mentioning these countries: Romanians (and Bulgarians, Slovakians, Spaniards, Greeks? EU is much bigger, right?”

I have mentioned only these countries because usually they are mentioned as opposing Kosovo independence inside EU. If you got the idea of my post, would have make no sense, in the respective context, to mention US, it is pretty clear Americans are enjoying a very permissive medium in Kosovo…

However, Predictor, you have not answered my question in the end of my previous post, right before the quote from ICG report on March 2004 events. Any thoughts?

Noli,
Thanks for your remarks.
Still, my reply to Predictor was not only addressed to him, but also to other people, more balanced and open to debate. I am happy to see I have reached this goal.

Now, some comments on your post, to clarify some issues:

Not only Bulgaria, but also Romania provided airspace for NATO bombings. Romania accepted the bombings as intended to remove a dictatorial regime (Milosevic) and when I say Romania, I mean not only the political leadership but also common people. We Romanian have seen this as a proof that we are ready to join NATO and to be a partner with NATO countries. Of course, this was a “real politik” decision, but one should no underestimate the fact that Romania sacrificed in this issue not only billions of dollars as collateral damages (e.g. the blockade of Danube) but also the friendship of Serbs. All over the NATO bombings period, this attitude was prevalent in Romanian media, exception being made by the (at that time) Social Democrat Party (ex-Communists) who were trying to use this issue to attack the liberal reformist Government in Bucharest in place between 1996 and 2000.

Last but not least, Romania decided to refuse access on her airspace for Russia, when Moscow was trying to reinforce the bridgehead the SFOR-originated Russian troops did occupy Pristina airport, right before NATO to enter Kosovo. Bulgaria did the same. Therefore, their involvement in the conflict, limited of course (we were not NATO members at that time) should not be denied. And for sure NATO was not bashed and attacked in Romania, at that time, as it happened in Greece!

My point is that Albanians should look for more friends than only US, because US still cannot do freely everything they want in the world (they needed partners for Afghanistan, for Irak, they need partners for Kosovo too).
And I agree with you that a relation of centuries old, as the one between Romanians and Albanians (or the one between Serbs and Romanians) will not disappear overnight just because people like Predictor (I hope I understood correctly your sayings on this matters).

Now, on Romanian Gendarmery in Kosovo:

The comparison with Blackwater case is not consistent and correct, not to mention that is unfair for Romanian Gendarms, not only because Kosovo is not Irak (thanks God!) but also for several reasons: Blackwater people are mercenaries, everybody knows that their human resources are relying heavily on people who previously were discharged from the US army or police (why? easy to guess!), they are using the principle “shoot first, ask questions later”, and in the cases mentioned in Congress, they were acting by themselves, only under the general umbrella of US contracts. That’s why they were grilled in the Congress, and I am sure some of them are very “trigger happy” and guilty. Also, it is important to establish their mental set-up: that Irakians are all enemies, and not to be trusted, because anybody could be a crazy insurgent.

On the other, Romanian Gendarms are a professional police force; they have a job to continue in Romania, so for them it is important how they are assessed by their own officers and also UNMIK officials; for that, they cannot afford mistakes, and their mindset is very different of the one of Blackwater’ people, especially that they have no grudge against any of Kosovo ethnicities and they know also that Romania is not the alfa and omega in solving Kosovo issue, so they feel neutral in this confrontation; they don’t feel threatened in Kosovo, so they have no reason to be “trigger-happy”; and in Kosovo, they are under UNMIK command, according to the contract between UN and Bucharest, and that’s why the investigation was conducted by UNMIK, and not by Bucharest, because their actions on 10 February were conform with the standard action procedures in Romania. It was not like the Gendarms burst into a house in search for weapons and killed the inhabitants by mistake: the demonstrators were attacking the police forces with everything they could get a grip on. And as long UNMIK established that individual culpabilities cannot be established in the deaths of 10 Feb., Bucharest cannot go against this decision (although Romania co-operated with UNMIK, as UNMIK admitted officially, and the Gendarms have stayed another extra month in Kosovo only for that – something many countries, fully developed democracies, would not do).
It may not look OK, but any country is protecting its citizens, especially when they are acting on behalf of International Community.

This is why I have mentioned in my previous post the deaths of Kosovo Albanians killed by American, Danish and French KFOR troops in March 2004. Did UNMIK or KFOR even bothered to investigate? No, because in all cases, the soldiers were not even ever identified, and shipped out of Kosovo in no-time…

Noli, you say:
“Just because Romania is an EU member means that we can’t ask questions because we can piss our friends off?”
That was not my intention, my previous post was only responding to Predictor offensive suggestions.
Romania is not a perfect country or democracy, this is understood (come on, not even the great US of A are not such things!). This is why am still continuing this debate, because I feel I can put some light on some issues and get some light from others, on other issues or the same ones. At the end of the day, the debate is important as an exercise of free thought, the participants are less important as individuals.

And I fully agree with you that everybody should be accountable for his/her actions. Nobody is perfect, and there is a general saying all over the world: see first your sins, before accusing others. Because “those who take the sword, will die by the sword” (and I quote the Bible although I am not a religious person, but Christianity somehow “copyrighted” many old sayings :) I think if everybody will pay attention to this – Romanians, Albanians, Americans – then many problems will be solved…

Apologies to everybody for the long post,

Best from Kosovo,
George

Noli you are a real smart guy, if you know so much about Blackwater then you must have been on the convoy that got shot up. No they did not fly anyone back to the US they just change there tactics. unforuntaely you don't know what you are talking about. I wish you did have a creidible comment but you don't so you just talk about Romanian PeaceKeepers and Blackwater. Romania will still on the Map and so will Blackwater. I will just ignore you post from now on since you know so much about Iraq and work there for so long. You tell us how it is in Baghdad or whereever your are based. Bottom line when you think you can damage private property and run rampant over established authority you learn fast that KFOR will not put up with craziness.

To George, and Noli

George, we got the point now, as it seems we would much better understand each other talking with fingers than writing here. Honestly saying I, personally, have nothing against the Romania, and Romanians at all, in contrary I really regret them when I saw them for the first and the last time in Romania (meaning 17 years ago). I presume, and hope, things have changed since. Regarding your concern over Moldavia, it could be that you are right; however, Moldova is an independent country today, and I have nothing agains that, so no fear Kosova could be a precedent. This idea, actually, comes from BG circles. Also idea that two Albanian states in the Balkans are out of question is from BG, while Albania had nothing against two Romanian countries, right? Simply said, I do not understand Romanian politics (especially when they were part of the UN SC – until dec. 2006) towards Kosova, why did they oppose any positive attitude of the others.
Simple question: what will an independent Kosova harm Romania?
Regarding the ICG report from 2004 you know that very well that every one living in Kosova (including internationals right) is fully aware of (meaning firstly of people interested is reading it). I am one of them. I must say it is not comparable at all with events on February 10, even though I am not a supporter of Albin Kurti initiative at all. While 2004 was a Kosova wide unrest, in what even KFOR, KPS and UN Police lost control of the situation, and Serb minority was seriously endangered, February 10 was something completely different: protesters were trying to go through the police cordon, and that’s all! That is actually happening every day in the west Europe and US, and nobody is shot, right?


Noli,
I got your point too. I do not criticize your English, it’s fine, honestly. I was too tough, maybe when I said “persona non grata”, but, I found no reason for a Romanian guy to express such a comment towards us Kosovars and Kosova issue, trying to defend his compatriots in an issue that, even in Romania, I believe, they would be indicted.

Noli,

To my understanding MSU falls under the command structure of KFOR and the idea that KFOR responded properly goes along with KFOR contingency plans, which I am sure you are not privy to.

I served 22 moths in Kosovo becuase after my initial tour of 12 months I was graciously granted an extension because I enjoyed my work there.

It is very easy for anyone on these boards to second guess the work of policeman and soldiers who are out there every day dealing with threats . Things happen in the 'fog of war', rubber bullets, like other 'non-lethal munitions' are not very accurate. Once again because MSU is part of the KFOR command structure and not the UN one there are different SOPs. The idea that the bullets could be expired never came out while I was in Kosovo, but I chalk this up to the fog of war too. I have been very critical of the KFOR structure, organization, and response and that shows a lapse. Trainings in riot control does have SOPs, but these vary by nation, not properly enforced at a KFOR level, and I am willing to bet the outcome could have went a hundred different ways depending which nation you put in that situation.

I did not claim that I was there that day, I said I was an observer at Camp Clarke in MTNF-C and witnessed KFOR contingency plans being drawn up, KFOR intel reports on the 'self determination' movement, and reports from the MSU on the ground.

It is very easy for one of the high minded UN arm chair generals to evaluate the actions and decisions made under duress and under threat.