Sunday, 07.10.2007.
13:13
Forensics have dug up 157 bodies from the Zeleni Jadar mass grave, believed to be those of the 1995 Srebrenica massacre victims.
Izvor: Beta
pre 16 godina
"I hope that all Serbs remember JULY 1995 when their troops massacred indiscriminately men and boys as young as 12 years." ??????
Srebrenica - age structure
killed or missing
2 boys 8-years old
1 boy 11-years old
3 boys 12-years old
7 boys 13-years old
22 boys 14-years old
79 boys 15-years old
approx. 160 boys 16-years old
approx. 220 boys 17-years old
approx. 280 boys 18-years old
approximately 7800 adult man
approx. 28 adult women
pre 16 godina
«You accused Serbs of being Orthodox but not Christians. »
Serbs who rape women and kill children cannot be considered Christians, no matter if they are Catholics or Orthodox.
This is what I meant. I do not talk about ordinary Serbs, I talk about people like Mladic, Arkan and the Scorpions, who massacred 10s of thousands of innocent people and would go to Church to ask a benediction.
This is a travesty of God and faith.
pre 16 godina
Victor says... "You know well that no posters on this forum refer to all Serbs as bad and evil. This is a 'free affirmation'. On this forum, we only speak of Serbs who perpetrated horrible crimes, and not about the ordinary Serbs. Most of the Serb readers don't establish this simple difference."
Simple difference, my foot, and I do not believe you!
You, Victor, champion the flawed and dangerous idea of 'collective guilt' of all Serbs on this site repeatedly.
One only needs to read your previous posts on this site to see that you are guilty of this and I have vigoursly commented about it.
Are we to be appreciative of your 'free affirmation'? You think the Serbs need you to affirm anything?
You accused Serbs of being Orthodox but not Christians. Thank goodness, B92 realized their error after publishing it and they removed it.
You say…"There are very few Serbs on this forum who are compassionate and remorseful."
What arrogance! When someone commented on one of your many offensive posts, you said ..."Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned.
(Victor, 5. October 2007)
After reading your comments on this site, I believe that anything you contribute here or publish should be considered historical fiction.
pre 16 godina
To Kate an like Kate commentators
I Ilir did not said Serbs are not human, I did only take you as defender of all Serbian government atrocities they made in Serbian name during all this past years in Balkan.
If Serbian people want to go ahead with life in Western way of Democracy and with them their government they need to apologizes to all these people they did so much PAIN.
pre 16 godina
Alan,
I would be glad to engage is a discussion with you but do you agree that these discussions would remain personal and you wwon't use the content on this forum?
pre 16 godina
«There are loads of Serbs on this planet who feel compassion for any victim».
This I know Mr Jaksic and, if you read me well, I have no doubts about this reality. You will notice that I speak about «Serbs on this forum», like Ida, Ratko and a few others who have no compassion at all for all the victims. Ida told me that the kids I have worked with for years as a psycho-educator, and their parents, tell me tales and lies. I find this rude and cruel. Fortunately, there are Serbs like Matthew, Kate and yourself, who are more objective, and I will be glad to share a few chapters of my book,,, but it's written in French.
Be re-assured, I do not stigmatize your nation for the war in Bosnia or what was done to little children; I simply transpose their testimonies, as they are, to show adults what they have done to innocent children. Saying this, I certainly know that Serb children were also traumatized, and what they would tell me is exactly what the Bosniak children have told me during my numerous meetings with them. I know they have suffered the same trauma which I feel through their drawings and their stories.
pre 16 godina
«...to just paint all Serbs as bad, many posters here end up looking more bigoted than anything else.»
Kate,
You know well that no posters on this forum refer to all Serbs as bad and evil. This is a 'free affirmation'. On this forum, we only speak of Serbs who perpetrated horrible crimes, and not about the ordinary Serbs. Most of the Serb readers don't establish this simple difference.
I agree with you Kate that all sided have committed crimes, but not in the same measure as the Serbs. Even the ICTY talk about an «orgy of crimes» when the refer to the crimes committed by the Serbs during the war. I understand that it is very unpleasant and displeasing for you to be stigmatized like this, but it is the reality. Fifty years after WW2, Germans still feel the effects of the what Germany accomplished as a wound to their soul.
Of course, History will note the crimes committed by the three parties but, according to many observers, the Serbs will hold the responsibility for most of the crimes perpetrated during the 1992-1995 war.
This is unfortunate for good people like you, Kate.
pre 16 godina
«Every comment that comes from you is twisted one sided. »
nele,
I have worked with Bosniaks an the story I will tell is the one that children told me, and I believe the children. A child does not lie unless adults like you show them how to lie!
Ida,
«There were unarmed Serb soldiers who were ambushed and massacred leaving Tuzla »
In a war, that the way to do with the enemy. This is a strategy of war. But you cannot remove 300 people from an hospital and gun them down. That's a crime.
pre 16 godina
Victor - I really hope that you will show less bias in your book draft 'The war, as told by children' than you do on this site.
I hope that you are also interviewing and including Serbian victims, all children who suffered under the bombing by Nato, and victims of the KLA.
pre 16 godina
Ida, stop. This ain't helping our people.
Srebrenica really did happen. I find it depressing like I've said in the above comment (I hope the moderators will add that one soon).
What you're saying about how the bodies could be those of Serbs, that used to be said a lot a few years ago at the height of Srebrenica denial.
Let me tell you something based on what I've heard. Some of these mass graves get discovered based on information from Bosnian Serbs themselves! Bosnian Serbs who were involved in the burial and the heinous re-burial process (you've heard of the secondary mass graves).
Understand now?
Ida, you can't find a truer Serbian patriot than me. And I'm telling you, Srebrenica denial does not help our people.
pre 16 godina
"There are very few Serbs on this forum who are compassionate and remorseful."
Not necessarily the case.
There are loads of Serbs on this planet who feel compassion for any victim. I know that I consider what happened in Srebrenica to be a great tragedy and find the whole issue to be depressing.
Remorse, however, is not something that anyone should be compelled to do especially if he/she had no hand in a particular affair or incident.
Like I've said, I think what happened is very sad, but I don't believe I should degrade myself by apologising for something someone else did, because of course I could not have done ANYTHING to have stopped that. In fact, I also feel helpless looking at what happened knowing that someone else did this and I and other decent conscientious people could do nothing to stop that. And it saddens me to think how some individuals have done something that we still see today, that neither I nor anyone decent would ever asked for. Thus perpetuating the helplessness I feel.
What I disagree with is this: "I hope that all Serbs remember JULY 1995 when their troops massacred indiscriminately men and boys as young as 12 years."
I'm not saying that people should not know about this. I think when people study the war in Bosnia, that, of course, they have to hear about this. What I disagree with is the guilt-tripping you engage in. You've got to stop that, Victor. You don't and you won't achieve anything with it. In fact, if I dare say, you shouldn't achieve anything with it.
Serbian history is long, and in my opinion does not deserve to be reduced to what happened in the last 18 years.
You mentioned writing a book, Victor. Please write to me about what you hope to write, as I'd like to ask questions.
Google "Balkan Anarchist" and you will find my page.
pre 16 godina
These are UNIDENTIFIED and in a region where the Muslim army operated. There were unarmed Serb soldiers who were ambushed and massacred leaving Tuzla - hundreds of them are missing.
The Muslims will automatically claim anyone as a Muslim from Srebrenica without identification.
Further I read that these are body parts mainly which means that the number is often multiplied several times.
A Serb observed Muslims at graves scenes of taking apart a body and putting it into several different bags and carrying the bags before the cameras to make one person look like 6.
Unless VICTOR can give us some names here he may be counting dead Serbs killed by Naser Oric's troops or his headquarters in Tuzla.
pre 16 godina
Seriously Victor where did you go to school the Josph Goebbels College of propaganda. If you are an educator of children what hope do we have for the next generation. Every comment that comes from you is twisted one sided. I suggest you read the children’s book Pinocchio or the Boy Who Cried Wolf.
pre 16 godina
«... pain and losses people in Bosnia are still having, mostly Muslim Bosnians and that even after so many years from the War in Bosnia.»
As I was writing yesterday, every day for years (1998-2005) I heard all the gruesome stories of Bosniak children, women and men, about what they went through during the war, and I am still shocked and saddened.
Yesterday, Ida called them tales and lies! And she is not the only Serbs to make such comments. Ratko does the same. There are very few Serbs on this forum who are compassionate and remorseful.
Actually, I am writing a book about my experience, as a psycho-educator, and I will try to present through facts how deep the pain still is, years after the war.
The Title: The war, as told by children.
pre 16 godina
Too bad Serbia was found NOT GUILTY of genocide, and that 30,000 Muslim civilians were killed in the war (many of whom used guns and fought just like salaried soldiers) This is proven by the fact that that 89% of all casualties were men. Where are all the women and children???
Maybe Bosnian Muslims should look in the mirror and ask why they chose to disrespect the Serbs of Bosnia by rejecting compriomise in 1992 and choosing a war of dominance- a slap in the face for the 300,000-700,000 Serbs killed in World War 2 and the hundreds of years of Islamic slavery of Serbs by Bosniaks and Turks.
Had they respected Serbs they would not have put their populations in risk of revenge. But, they wanted everything and were willing to sacrifice anything to get it- even their own.
pre 16 godina
Ilir Pristina - If it were Albanians who had killed those boys and men at Srebrenica then I'm sure that you wouldn't be sounding so morally outraged or even make a comment (especially if the victims were Serbians). But there you go.
And Victor - I hardly think that the Croatian side is squeaky clean when it comes to judging other ethnicities so harshly.
I find this all abhorrent and disgusting. Not just Srebrenica because that is the most highly publicised and large scale killing, but all murders of civilians in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo. Of all ethnicities.
There were terrible things done to people from all groups BY people of all groups in Europe's most horrendous civil war since WWII. Most people on this thread are so anti-Serb that they are happy to view things in a mono-faceted way.
But everyone knows that there were not criminals on just one side and victims on another. It was an ugly civil war.
I honestly pray that history isn't repeated and hope that the families of all victims find some peace during the rest of their shattered lives. Many of those who died were really just kids, which makes it all the more tragic.
Ilir - I have no problem at all condemning the murder of innocents and never would. That includes what happened at Srebrenica (but I think that the Dutch troops should have intervened.)
Even if those killed were soldiers, there are guidelines on dealing with prisoners of war which had obviously gone out the window.
I would also, like any other normal person, condemn the murder, rape, torture and loss of all the people who were stuck there to face this terrible war. Crimes committed by Serbs, Bosnian Muslims, Croatians, 'soldiers of fortune', mujahadeen or whoever.
I think that all decent people outside of this civil war (who hadn't had a family member killed and been ravaged with hate), feels the same. That if they could have stopped just one of these crimes they would have, and not checked beforehand what ethnicity anyone was.
Ironically by seizing an opportunity to just paint all Serbs as bad, many posters here end up looking more bigoted than anything else.
pre 16 godina
Ilir,
What happened in Srebrenica was extremely terrible, shameful and a war crime. As a Serb I can not condemn it strongly enough.
Serbs had very legitimate fears of a revival of Ustashe crimes against our civilian population, however that fear was used by criminals in Belgrade to commit terrible atrocities and enrich themselves at the expense of the Serbian, Croatian, Bosniak and Albanian populations.
What I find even more disturbing is the fact that the Hague blamed the civilians of Srebrenica for the crimes committed by Oric in order to give him a lighter sentence. Basically convicting these murdered civilians of war crimes without a trial or representation.
pre 16 godina
Hi, It's very very bad for pain and losses people in Bosnia are still having, mostly Muslim Bosnians and that even after so many years from the War in Bosnia.
To: Princip UK and Kate, so good comment writers (only defending Serbian side in Kosovo case) please can you comment something here.
Thanks
Ilir Pristina
pre 16 godina
Python,
In Zvornik, trucks loaded with the corpses of the women and children were seen leaving the village.
Women were raped and then killed, so she would not denounce the rapists.
I think that you should read more about the atrocities committed by the paramilitaries and local militias; they did not spare the women and children.
pre 16 godina
According to the propoganda we should expect to exhume another 7,843 remains. Forensics and hard, varifiable data is the worst enemy of Serb-haters. Victor, when the figures are revised to
pre 16 godina
Oh yes, victor knows right away that this was the work of Serbs?
He tries to point out and make it seem that only Serbs killed people. By the way in Srebrenica, how many Serbs were slaughtered by bosnian muslims but was never reported? This occured before the so called "Srebrenica Massacre."
pre 16 godina
To Vuk ,Ida and others how still like to deny of mass graves in Srpska. Also the murder ,violent ethnic cleansing of 690,000 from pre war population, of 740,000 Bosniaks ,Croatians & others from Srpska.
pre 16 godina
"Indiscriminately" is not the right word to be used here my friend Victor. Killing only soldiers, those in uniforms and those hiding in civilian clothes, is perfectly normal in every war. All women, children and elderly were spared, weren't they?
pre 16 godina
«The mass grave is one of the largest discovered in the Drina River area.»
This is a reminder to all Serbs that what was accomplished in Bosnia by their soldiers, paramilitaries and even local militias, are not tales and lies. Innocent people were herded every week during the war by the troops and massacred by the 100s.
I hope that all Serbs remember JULY 1995 when their troops massacred indiscriminately men and boys as young as 12 years.
pre 16 godina
«The mass grave is one of the largest discovered in the Drina River area.»
This is a reminder to all Serbs that what was accomplished in Bosnia by their soldiers, paramilitaries and even local militias, are not tales and lies. Innocent people were herded every week during the war by the troops and massacred by the 100s.
I hope that all Serbs remember JULY 1995 when their troops massacred indiscriminately men and boys as young as 12 years.
pre 16 godina
Python,
In Zvornik, trucks loaded with the corpses of the women and children were seen leaving the village.
Women were raped and then killed, so she would not denounce the rapists.
I think that you should read more about the atrocities committed by the paramilitaries and local militias; they did not spare the women and children.
pre 16 godina
«You accused Serbs of being Orthodox but not Christians. »
Serbs who rape women and kill children cannot be considered Christians, no matter if they are Catholics or Orthodox.
This is what I meant. I do not talk about ordinary Serbs, I talk about people like Mladic, Arkan and the Scorpions, who massacred 10s of thousands of innocent people and would go to Church to ask a benediction.
This is a travesty of God and faith.
pre 16 godina
«There are loads of Serbs on this planet who feel compassion for any victim».
This I know Mr Jaksic and, if you read me well, I have no doubts about this reality. You will notice that I speak about «Serbs on this forum», like Ida, Ratko and a few others who have no compassion at all for all the victims. Ida told me that the kids I have worked with for years as a psycho-educator, and their parents, tell me tales and lies. I find this rude and cruel. Fortunately, there are Serbs like Matthew, Kate and yourself, who are more objective, and I will be glad to share a few chapters of my book,,, but it's written in French.
Be re-assured, I do not stigmatize your nation for the war in Bosnia or what was done to little children; I simply transpose their testimonies, as they are, to show adults what they have done to innocent children. Saying this, I certainly know that Serb children were also traumatized, and what they would tell me is exactly what the Bosniak children have told me during my numerous meetings with them. I know they have suffered the same trauma which I feel through their drawings and their stories.
pre 16 godina
To Vuk ,Ida and others how still like to deny of mass graves in Srpska. Also the murder ,violent ethnic cleansing of 690,000 from pre war population, of 740,000 Bosniaks ,Croatians & others from Srpska.
pre 16 godina
Ilir Pristina - If it were Albanians who had killed those boys and men at Srebrenica then I'm sure that you wouldn't be sounding so morally outraged or even make a comment (especially if the victims were Serbians). But there you go.
And Victor - I hardly think that the Croatian side is squeaky clean when it comes to judging other ethnicities so harshly.
I find this all abhorrent and disgusting. Not just Srebrenica because that is the most highly publicised and large scale killing, but all murders of civilians in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo. Of all ethnicities.
There were terrible things done to people from all groups BY people of all groups in Europe's most horrendous civil war since WWII. Most people on this thread are so anti-Serb that they are happy to view things in a mono-faceted way.
But everyone knows that there were not criminals on just one side and victims on another. It was an ugly civil war.
I honestly pray that history isn't repeated and hope that the families of all victims find some peace during the rest of their shattered lives. Many of those who died were really just kids, which makes it all the more tragic.
Ilir - I have no problem at all condemning the murder of innocents and never would. That includes what happened at Srebrenica (but I think that the Dutch troops should have intervened.)
Even if those killed were soldiers, there are guidelines on dealing with prisoners of war which had obviously gone out the window.
I would also, like any other normal person, condemn the murder, rape, torture and loss of all the people who were stuck there to face this terrible war. Crimes committed by Serbs, Bosnian Muslims, Croatians, 'soldiers of fortune', mujahadeen or whoever.
I think that all decent people outside of this civil war (who hadn't had a family member killed and been ravaged with hate), feels the same. That if they could have stopped just one of these crimes they would have, and not checked beforehand what ethnicity anyone was.
Ironically by seizing an opportunity to just paint all Serbs as bad, many posters here end up looking more bigoted than anything else.
pre 16 godina
"Indiscriminately" is not the right word to be used here my friend Victor. Killing only soldiers, those in uniforms and those hiding in civilian clothes, is perfectly normal in every war. All women, children and elderly were spared, weren't they?
pre 16 godina
Oh yes, victor knows right away that this was the work of Serbs?
He tries to point out and make it seem that only Serbs killed people. By the way in Srebrenica, how many Serbs were slaughtered by bosnian muslims but was never reported? This occured before the so called "Srebrenica Massacre."
pre 16 godina
Ilir,
What happened in Srebrenica was extremely terrible, shameful and a war crime. As a Serb I can not condemn it strongly enough.
Serbs had very legitimate fears of a revival of Ustashe crimes against our civilian population, however that fear was used by criminals in Belgrade to commit terrible atrocities and enrich themselves at the expense of the Serbian, Croatian, Bosniak and Albanian populations.
What I find even more disturbing is the fact that the Hague blamed the civilians of Srebrenica for the crimes committed by Oric in order to give him a lighter sentence. Basically convicting these murdered civilians of war crimes without a trial or representation.
pre 16 godina
Too bad Serbia was found NOT GUILTY of genocide, and that 30,000 Muslim civilians were killed in the war (many of whom used guns and fought just like salaried soldiers) This is proven by the fact that that 89% of all casualties were men. Where are all the women and children???
Maybe Bosnian Muslims should look in the mirror and ask why they chose to disrespect the Serbs of Bosnia by rejecting compriomise in 1992 and choosing a war of dominance- a slap in the face for the 300,000-700,000 Serbs killed in World War 2 and the hundreds of years of Islamic slavery of Serbs by Bosniaks and Turks.
Had they respected Serbs they would not have put their populations in risk of revenge. But, they wanted everything and were willing to sacrifice anything to get it- even their own.
pre 16 godina
«Every comment that comes from you is twisted one sided. »
nele,
I have worked with Bosniaks an the story I will tell is the one that children told me, and I believe the children. A child does not lie unless adults like you show them how to lie!
Ida,
«There were unarmed Serb soldiers who were ambushed and massacred leaving Tuzla »
In a war, that the way to do with the enemy. This is a strategy of war. But you cannot remove 300 people from an hospital and gun them down. That's a crime.
pre 16 godina
«...to just paint all Serbs as bad, many posters here end up looking more bigoted than anything else.»
Kate,
You know well that no posters on this forum refer to all Serbs as bad and evil. This is a 'free affirmation'. On this forum, we only speak of Serbs who perpetrated horrible crimes, and not about the ordinary Serbs. Most of the Serb readers don't establish this simple difference.
I agree with you Kate that all sided have committed crimes, but not in the same measure as the Serbs. Even the ICTY talk about an «orgy of crimes» when the refer to the crimes committed by the Serbs during the war. I understand that it is very unpleasant and displeasing for you to be stigmatized like this, but it is the reality. Fifty years after WW2, Germans still feel the effects of the what Germany accomplished as a wound to their soul.
Of course, History will note the crimes committed by the three parties but, according to many observers, the Serbs will hold the responsibility for most of the crimes perpetrated during the 1992-1995 war.
This is unfortunate for good people like you, Kate.
pre 16 godina
According to the propoganda we should expect to exhume another 7,843 remains. Forensics and hard, varifiable data is the worst enemy of Serb-haters. Victor, when the figures are revised to
pre 16 godina
Hi, It's very very bad for pain and losses people in Bosnia are still having, mostly Muslim Bosnians and that even after so many years from the War in Bosnia.
To: Princip UK and Kate, so good comment writers (only defending Serbian side in Kosovo case) please can you comment something here.
Thanks
Ilir Pristina
pre 16 godina
Victor - I really hope that you will show less bias in your book draft 'The war, as told by children' than you do on this site.
I hope that you are also interviewing and including Serbian victims, all children who suffered under the bombing by Nato, and victims of the KLA.
pre 16 godina
Alan,
I would be glad to engage is a discussion with you but do you agree that these discussions would remain personal and you wwon't use the content on this forum?
pre 16 godina
To Kate an like Kate commentators
I Ilir did not said Serbs are not human, I did only take you as defender of all Serbian government atrocities they made in Serbian name during all this past years in Balkan.
If Serbian people want to go ahead with life in Western way of Democracy and with them their government they need to apologizes to all these people they did so much PAIN.
pre 16 godina
«... pain and losses people in Bosnia are still having, mostly Muslim Bosnians and that even after so many years from the War in Bosnia.»
As I was writing yesterday, every day for years (1998-2005) I heard all the gruesome stories of Bosniak children, women and men, about what they went through during the war, and I am still shocked and saddened.
Yesterday, Ida called them tales and lies! And she is not the only Serbs to make such comments. Ratko does the same. There are very few Serbs on this forum who are compassionate and remorseful.
Actually, I am writing a book about my experience, as a psycho-educator, and I will try to present through facts how deep the pain still is, years after the war.
The Title: The war, as told by children.
pre 16 godina
These are UNIDENTIFIED and in a region where the Muslim army operated. There were unarmed Serb soldiers who were ambushed and massacred leaving Tuzla - hundreds of them are missing.
The Muslims will automatically claim anyone as a Muslim from Srebrenica without identification.
Further I read that these are body parts mainly which means that the number is often multiplied several times.
A Serb observed Muslims at graves scenes of taking apart a body and putting it into several different bags and carrying the bags before the cameras to make one person look like 6.
Unless VICTOR can give us some names here he may be counting dead Serbs killed by Naser Oric's troops or his headquarters in Tuzla.
pre 16 godina
Seriously Victor where did you go to school the Josph Goebbels College of propaganda. If you are an educator of children what hope do we have for the next generation. Every comment that comes from you is twisted one sided. I suggest you read the children’s book Pinocchio or the Boy Who Cried Wolf.
pre 16 godina
Ida, stop. This ain't helping our people.
Srebrenica really did happen. I find it depressing like I've said in the above comment (I hope the moderators will add that one soon).
What you're saying about how the bodies could be those of Serbs, that used to be said a lot a few years ago at the height of Srebrenica denial.
Let me tell you something based on what I've heard. Some of these mass graves get discovered based on information from Bosnian Serbs themselves! Bosnian Serbs who were involved in the burial and the heinous re-burial process (you've heard of the secondary mass graves).
Understand now?
Ida, you can't find a truer Serbian patriot than me. And I'm telling you, Srebrenica denial does not help our people.
pre 16 godina
"There are very few Serbs on this forum who are compassionate and remorseful."
Not necessarily the case.
There are loads of Serbs on this planet who feel compassion for any victim. I know that I consider what happened in Srebrenica to be a great tragedy and find the whole issue to be depressing.
Remorse, however, is not something that anyone should be compelled to do especially if he/she had no hand in a particular affair or incident.
Like I've said, I think what happened is very sad, but I don't believe I should degrade myself by apologising for something someone else did, because of course I could not have done ANYTHING to have stopped that. In fact, I also feel helpless looking at what happened knowing that someone else did this and I and other decent conscientious people could do nothing to stop that. And it saddens me to think how some individuals have done something that we still see today, that neither I nor anyone decent would ever asked for. Thus perpetuating the helplessness I feel.
What I disagree with is this: "I hope that all Serbs remember JULY 1995 when their troops massacred indiscriminately men and boys as young as 12 years."
I'm not saying that people should not know about this. I think when people study the war in Bosnia, that, of course, they have to hear about this. What I disagree with is the guilt-tripping you engage in. You've got to stop that, Victor. You don't and you won't achieve anything with it. In fact, if I dare say, you shouldn't achieve anything with it.
Serbian history is long, and in my opinion does not deserve to be reduced to what happened in the last 18 years.
You mentioned writing a book, Victor. Please write to me about what you hope to write, as I'd like to ask questions.
Google "Balkan Anarchist" and you will find my page.
pre 16 godina
Victor says... "You know well that no posters on this forum refer to all Serbs as bad and evil. This is a 'free affirmation'. On this forum, we only speak of Serbs who perpetrated horrible crimes, and not about the ordinary Serbs. Most of the Serb readers don't establish this simple difference."
Simple difference, my foot, and I do not believe you!
You, Victor, champion the flawed and dangerous idea of 'collective guilt' of all Serbs on this site repeatedly.
One only needs to read your previous posts on this site to see that you are guilty of this and I have vigoursly commented about it.
Are we to be appreciative of your 'free affirmation'? You think the Serbs need you to affirm anything?
You accused Serbs of being Orthodox but not Christians. Thank goodness, B92 realized their error after publishing it and they removed it.
You say…"There are very few Serbs on this forum who are compassionate and remorseful."
What arrogance! When someone commented on one of your many offensive posts, you said ..."Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned.
(Victor, 5. October 2007)
After reading your comments on this site, I believe that anything you contribute here or publish should be considered historical fiction.
pre 16 godina
"I hope that all Serbs remember JULY 1995 when their troops massacred indiscriminately men and boys as young as 12 years." ??????
Srebrenica - age structure
killed or missing
2 boys 8-years old
1 boy 11-years old
3 boys 12-years old
7 boys 13-years old
22 boys 14-years old
79 boys 15-years old
approx. 160 boys 16-years old
approx. 220 boys 17-years old
approx. 280 boys 18-years old
approximately 7800 adult man
approx. 28 adult women
pre 16 godina
«The mass grave is one of the largest discovered in the Drina River area.»
This is a reminder to all Serbs that what was accomplished in Bosnia by their soldiers, paramilitaries and even local militias, are not tales and lies. Innocent people were herded every week during the war by the troops and massacred by the 100s.
I hope that all Serbs remember JULY 1995 when their troops massacred indiscriminately men and boys as young as 12 years.
pre 16 godina
To Vuk ,Ida and others how still like to deny of mass graves in Srpska. Also the murder ,violent ethnic cleansing of 690,000 from pre war population, of 740,000 Bosniaks ,Croatians & others from Srpska.
pre 16 godina
Python,
In Zvornik, trucks loaded with the corpses of the women and children were seen leaving the village.
Women were raped and then killed, so she would not denounce the rapists.
I think that you should read more about the atrocities committed by the paramilitaries and local militias; they did not spare the women and children.
pre 16 godina
«... pain and losses people in Bosnia are still having, mostly Muslim Bosnians and that even after so many years from the War in Bosnia.»
As I was writing yesterday, every day for years (1998-2005) I heard all the gruesome stories of Bosniak children, women and men, about what they went through during the war, and I am still shocked and saddened.
Yesterday, Ida called them tales and lies! And she is not the only Serbs to make such comments. Ratko does the same. There are very few Serbs on this forum who are compassionate and remorseful.
Actually, I am writing a book about my experience, as a psycho-educator, and I will try to present through facts how deep the pain still is, years after the war.
The Title: The war, as told by children.
pre 16 godina
"Indiscriminately" is not the right word to be used here my friend Victor. Killing only soldiers, those in uniforms and those hiding in civilian clothes, is perfectly normal in every war. All women, children and elderly were spared, weren't they?
pre 16 godina
Hi, It's very very bad for pain and losses people in Bosnia are still having, mostly Muslim Bosnians and that even after so many years from the War in Bosnia.
To: Princip UK and Kate, so good comment writers (only defending Serbian side in Kosovo case) please can you comment something here.
Thanks
Ilir Pristina
pre 16 godina
Oh yes, victor knows right away that this was the work of Serbs?
He tries to point out and make it seem that only Serbs killed people. By the way in Srebrenica, how many Serbs were slaughtered by bosnian muslims but was never reported? This occured before the so called "Srebrenica Massacre."
pre 16 godina
According to the propoganda we should expect to exhume another 7,843 remains. Forensics and hard, varifiable data is the worst enemy of Serb-haters. Victor, when the figures are revised to
pre 16 godina
Ilir,
What happened in Srebrenica was extremely terrible, shameful and a war crime. As a Serb I can not condemn it strongly enough.
Serbs had very legitimate fears of a revival of Ustashe crimes against our civilian population, however that fear was used by criminals in Belgrade to commit terrible atrocities and enrich themselves at the expense of the Serbian, Croatian, Bosniak and Albanian populations.
What I find even more disturbing is the fact that the Hague blamed the civilians of Srebrenica for the crimes committed by Oric in order to give him a lighter sentence. Basically convicting these murdered civilians of war crimes without a trial or representation.
pre 16 godina
Too bad Serbia was found NOT GUILTY of genocide, and that 30,000 Muslim civilians were killed in the war (many of whom used guns and fought just like salaried soldiers) This is proven by the fact that that 89% of all casualties were men. Where are all the women and children???
Maybe Bosnian Muslims should look in the mirror and ask why they chose to disrespect the Serbs of Bosnia by rejecting compriomise in 1992 and choosing a war of dominance- a slap in the face for the 300,000-700,000 Serbs killed in World War 2 and the hundreds of years of Islamic slavery of Serbs by Bosniaks and Turks.
Had they respected Serbs they would not have put their populations in risk of revenge. But, they wanted everything and were willing to sacrifice anything to get it- even their own.
pre 16 godina
Ilir Pristina - If it were Albanians who had killed those boys and men at Srebrenica then I'm sure that you wouldn't be sounding so morally outraged or even make a comment (especially if the victims were Serbians). But there you go.
And Victor - I hardly think that the Croatian side is squeaky clean when it comes to judging other ethnicities so harshly.
I find this all abhorrent and disgusting. Not just Srebrenica because that is the most highly publicised and large scale killing, but all murders of civilians in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo. Of all ethnicities.
There were terrible things done to people from all groups BY people of all groups in Europe's most horrendous civil war since WWII. Most people on this thread are so anti-Serb that they are happy to view things in a mono-faceted way.
But everyone knows that there were not criminals on just one side and victims on another. It was an ugly civil war.
I honestly pray that history isn't repeated and hope that the families of all victims find some peace during the rest of their shattered lives. Many of those who died were really just kids, which makes it all the more tragic.
Ilir - I have no problem at all condemning the murder of innocents and never would. That includes what happened at Srebrenica (but I think that the Dutch troops should have intervened.)
Even if those killed were soldiers, there are guidelines on dealing with prisoners of war which had obviously gone out the window.
I would also, like any other normal person, condemn the murder, rape, torture and loss of all the people who were stuck there to face this terrible war. Crimes committed by Serbs, Bosnian Muslims, Croatians, 'soldiers of fortune', mujahadeen or whoever.
I think that all decent people outside of this civil war (who hadn't had a family member killed and been ravaged with hate), feels the same. That if they could have stopped just one of these crimes they would have, and not checked beforehand what ethnicity anyone was.
Ironically by seizing an opportunity to just paint all Serbs as bad, many posters here end up looking more bigoted than anything else.
pre 16 godina
These are UNIDENTIFIED and in a region where the Muslim army operated. There were unarmed Serb soldiers who were ambushed and massacred leaving Tuzla - hundreds of them are missing.
The Muslims will automatically claim anyone as a Muslim from Srebrenica without identification.
Further I read that these are body parts mainly which means that the number is often multiplied several times.
A Serb observed Muslims at graves scenes of taking apart a body and putting it into several different bags and carrying the bags before the cameras to make one person look like 6.
Unless VICTOR can give us some names here he may be counting dead Serbs killed by Naser Oric's troops or his headquarters in Tuzla.
pre 16 godina
Seriously Victor where did you go to school the Josph Goebbels College of propaganda. If you are an educator of children what hope do we have for the next generation. Every comment that comes from you is twisted one sided. I suggest you read the children’s book Pinocchio or the Boy Who Cried Wolf.
pre 16 godina
"There are very few Serbs on this forum who are compassionate and remorseful."
Not necessarily the case.
There are loads of Serbs on this planet who feel compassion for any victim. I know that I consider what happened in Srebrenica to be a great tragedy and find the whole issue to be depressing.
Remorse, however, is not something that anyone should be compelled to do especially if he/she had no hand in a particular affair or incident.
Like I've said, I think what happened is very sad, but I don't believe I should degrade myself by apologising for something someone else did, because of course I could not have done ANYTHING to have stopped that. In fact, I also feel helpless looking at what happened knowing that someone else did this and I and other decent conscientious people could do nothing to stop that. And it saddens me to think how some individuals have done something that we still see today, that neither I nor anyone decent would ever asked for. Thus perpetuating the helplessness I feel.
What I disagree with is this: "I hope that all Serbs remember JULY 1995 when their troops massacred indiscriminately men and boys as young as 12 years."
I'm not saying that people should not know about this. I think when people study the war in Bosnia, that, of course, they have to hear about this. What I disagree with is the guilt-tripping you engage in. You've got to stop that, Victor. You don't and you won't achieve anything with it. In fact, if I dare say, you shouldn't achieve anything with it.
Serbian history is long, and in my opinion does not deserve to be reduced to what happened in the last 18 years.
You mentioned writing a book, Victor. Please write to me about what you hope to write, as I'd like to ask questions.
Google "Balkan Anarchist" and you will find my page.
pre 16 godina
Ida, stop. This ain't helping our people.
Srebrenica really did happen. I find it depressing like I've said in the above comment (I hope the moderators will add that one soon).
What you're saying about how the bodies could be those of Serbs, that used to be said a lot a few years ago at the height of Srebrenica denial.
Let me tell you something based on what I've heard. Some of these mass graves get discovered based on information from Bosnian Serbs themselves! Bosnian Serbs who were involved in the burial and the heinous re-burial process (you've heard of the secondary mass graves).
Understand now?
Ida, you can't find a truer Serbian patriot than me. And I'm telling you, Srebrenica denial does not help our people.
pre 16 godina
Victor - I really hope that you will show less bias in your book draft 'The war, as told by children' than you do on this site.
I hope that you are also interviewing and including Serbian victims, all children who suffered under the bombing by Nato, and victims of the KLA.
pre 16 godina
«Every comment that comes from you is twisted one sided. »
nele,
I have worked with Bosniaks an the story I will tell is the one that children told me, and I believe the children. A child does not lie unless adults like you show them how to lie!
Ida,
«There were unarmed Serb soldiers who were ambushed and massacred leaving Tuzla »
In a war, that the way to do with the enemy. This is a strategy of war. But you cannot remove 300 people from an hospital and gun them down. That's a crime.
pre 16 godina
«...to just paint all Serbs as bad, many posters here end up looking more bigoted than anything else.»
Kate,
You know well that no posters on this forum refer to all Serbs as bad and evil. This is a 'free affirmation'. On this forum, we only speak of Serbs who perpetrated horrible crimes, and not about the ordinary Serbs. Most of the Serb readers don't establish this simple difference.
I agree with you Kate that all sided have committed crimes, but not in the same measure as the Serbs. Even the ICTY talk about an «orgy of crimes» when the refer to the crimes committed by the Serbs during the war. I understand that it is very unpleasant and displeasing for you to be stigmatized like this, but it is the reality. Fifty years after WW2, Germans still feel the effects of the what Germany accomplished as a wound to their soul.
Of course, History will note the crimes committed by the three parties but, according to many observers, the Serbs will hold the responsibility for most of the crimes perpetrated during the 1992-1995 war.
This is unfortunate for good people like you, Kate.
pre 16 godina
«There are loads of Serbs on this planet who feel compassion for any victim».
This I know Mr Jaksic and, if you read me well, I have no doubts about this reality. You will notice that I speak about «Serbs on this forum», like Ida, Ratko and a few others who have no compassion at all for all the victims. Ida told me that the kids I have worked with for years as a psycho-educator, and their parents, tell me tales and lies. I find this rude and cruel. Fortunately, there are Serbs like Matthew, Kate and yourself, who are more objective, and I will be glad to share a few chapters of my book,,, but it's written in French.
Be re-assured, I do not stigmatize your nation for the war in Bosnia or what was done to little children; I simply transpose their testimonies, as they are, to show adults what they have done to innocent children. Saying this, I certainly know that Serb children were also traumatized, and what they would tell me is exactly what the Bosniak children have told me during my numerous meetings with them. I know they have suffered the same trauma which I feel through their drawings and their stories.
pre 16 godina
Alan,
I would be glad to engage is a discussion with you but do you agree that these discussions would remain personal and you wwon't use the content on this forum?
pre 16 godina
To Kate an like Kate commentators
I Ilir did not said Serbs are not human, I did only take you as defender of all Serbian government atrocities they made in Serbian name during all this past years in Balkan.
If Serbian people want to go ahead with life in Western way of Democracy and with them their government they need to apologizes to all these people they did so much PAIN.
pre 16 godina
Victor says... "You know well that no posters on this forum refer to all Serbs as bad and evil. This is a 'free affirmation'. On this forum, we only speak of Serbs who perpetrated horrible crimes, and not about the ordinary Serbs. Most of the Serb readers don't establish this simple difference."
Simple difference, my foot, and I do not believe you!
You, Victor, champion the flawed and dangerous idea of 'collective guilt' of all Serbs on this site repeatedly.
One only needs to read your previous posts on this site to see that you are guilty of this and I have vigoursly commented about it.
Are we to be appreciative of your 'free affirmation'? You think the Serbs need you to affirm anything?
You accused Serbs of being Orthodox but not Christians. Thank goodness, B92 realized their error after publishing it and they removed it.
You say…"There are very few Serbs on this forum who are compassionate and remorseful."
What arrogance! When someone commented on one of your many offensive posts, you said ..."Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned.
(Victor, 5. October 2007)
After reading your comments on this site, I believe that anything you contribute here or publish should be considered historical fiction.
pre 16 godina
«You accused Serbs of being Orthodox but not Christians. »
Serbs who rape women and kill children cannot be considered Christians, no matter if they are Catholics or Orthodox.
This is what I meant. I do not talk about ordinary Serbs, I talk about people like Mladic, Arkan and the Scorpions, who massacred 10s of thousands of innocent people and would go to Church to ask a benediction.
This is a travesty of God and faith.
pre 16 godina
"I hope that all Serbs remember JULY 1995 when their troops massacred indiscriminately men and boys as young as 12 years." ??????
Srebrenica - age structure
killed or missing
2 boys 8-years old
1 boy 11-years old
3 boys 12-years old
7 boys 13-years old
22 boys 14-years old
79 boys 15-years old
approx. 160 boys 16-years old
approx. 220 boys 17-years old
approx. 280 boys 18-years old
approximately 7800 adult man
approx. 28 adult women
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