Vukovar verdict sparks violence in Croatia

It is happening again, burning the Serb houses.

Well I hate to say I told you so but this is exactly what I was talking about yesterday.

The Croatian media and some politicians have whipped the Croatian people up into a frenzy and this is the result.

No reflection, no consideration of maybe what the Croatian public have been told may not be completely true. Only anger at the contravention of the official view.

Do we all feel better now for the outpouring? And of course the comments by the Serb on Ovcara in Vukovar are to be condemned as well.

Go ahead press the genocide suit and when theat fails go on another feeding frenzy with Serbs as victims. :(

Nice Vic, blame the Hague for the behavior of the Croat individuals who burned down ppls homes.
"They're angles, its the hague thats guilty".......poor form Vic, very poor


BK

Victor the ONLY people responsible for the violence are those that are carrying it out. Nobody else.

Stop pandering to them. Unacceptable, no exceptions or excuses.

“I am sure that the judges at the ICTY did not even think of the consequences of such a verdict. They are responsible for the violence generated by this incorrect judgment.”

In a civilized and democratic society, when there are disagreements, people do not respond by committing arson.

That they don’t agree with a verdict does not make the judges responsible for their crimes.

Each individual is responsible for their own actions.

Victor says…”We all know the principle sustaining that an ACTION always carry a REACTION. Then, if I show disrespect for you; you will probably show disrespect to me. If I hit you, you will probably hit me also... if you lack control on yourself.”

Quite frequently, Victor, you generalize and make such comments as “We all know” and preach the flawed idea of collective quilt. Please know that I disagree with you more often than not and I do not know what you believe. I am not guilty of anyone’s crime and I do not believe in revenge.

The acceptable reaction for every action is not disrespect, revenge and breaking the law. The reaction should be civil and not vengeful and within the confines of the law. As a parent raising two sons, I would be doing them a terrible disservice to teach them to seek “an eye for an eye”.

I am not the only individual who disagreed with your comment (#3) that you posted. Clearly, “we do not all know” what you know.

I completely disagree with Victor because those refugees are not responsible for what happened in Vukovar nor in Hauge. It would be like saying that Croat civilians are responsible for what happened to them in Vukovar. These are HATE crimes which should not be tolerated and they are more reminiscent of the Balkan wars which ripped through Yugoslavia. I am appalled that Victor has the audacity to claim that each Action has a Reaction. So should Serbs now organize a militia and destroy Croats homes? Is this how you Victor handle problems and conflicts? Very poor call Victor, shame on you! This is a typical reaction, its always someone else’s fault. Serbs have not done anything to Croats over the past 10 yrs the Serbian president even had the courage to apologize for the war crimes something the Croats have not nor do I expect them to do. If they ever decide to apologize they will have to start from WW2. Also if it had been Serbs committing these criminal acts to Croats, Bosniaks, or Albanians the article would have been on BBC.

"I am sure that the judges at the ICTY did not even think of the consequences of such a verdict. They are responsible for the violence generated by this incorrect judgment. "

Well this shows that our friend victor condones these crimes against Serbs.

victor, maybe you got the verdict mixed up with gotovina.

Victor,
Are you suggesting that serbs will be ethnically cleansed by Croatia YET AGAIN if we remain "arrogant"??

We need serbs from baranja to move to Vukovar and Ilok... that way we will be a majority there and will have the place under our control.

"I am sure that the judges at the ICTY did not even think of the consequences of such a verdict. They are responsible for the violence generated by this incorrect judgment."

does this gentleman live in a lawless country somewhere? someone should explain to him that judges rule based on evidence not in anticipation of what the mob will say.

btw... don't remember any muslim houses destroyed in serbia or rs for that matter when that oric character was set free. on the same day as vukovar, they set limaj free, no albanian flats demolished in belgrade or presevo.

no excuses for violence, no double standards, pls.

John#2,

You just forgot to add that it would also pop up on CNN as a top story of the day. And the headline would read, "SERBS KILLING CROATS AGAIN!"

«Serbian properties in Benkovac have been demolished and fights have broken out between Serbs and Croats in Vukovar.»

I am sure that the judges at the ICTY did not even think of the consequences of such a verdict. They are responsible for the violence generated by this incorrect judgment.

I do not agree though with the Croats to turn against innocent people who have suffered just as much as them of the war, and young Serbs should be thought not to be arrogant and learn about History, if they don't want it to be repeated.

well it looks like the croatian government has to restore the homes again and the people shouldnt blame anyone there was the verdict that means nothing was found on those guys.all thats doing is making croatia look bad .

Well here it goes again, as an American I can not understand why Serbs want to live in Croatia anyway. My study of this region, as far as I understand it, is the Croatians should be greatful that the Serbs fought for the Croats amacipation from the Austrian yoke. If it were not for the Serbs they would have been still under some one elses rule.The Serbs of Croatia have been victimized three times this past century. I believe that would be a hint that all Serbs are not welcome! All Serbs in Croatia today should sell their property and move to Serbia and help build a strong future for the next generation.

Roger,

We all know the principle sustaining that an ACTION always carry a REACTION. Then, if I show disrespect for you; you will probably show disrespect to me. If I hit you, you will probably hit me also... if you lack control on yourself.

This is what happening in Croatia. Could we conclude that the Croats who have reacted very violently have showed a lack of control.

I agree with you. «Each individual is responsible for their own actions.»

«Well this shows that our friend victor condones these crimes against Serbs. »

Ratko,

I have always been for respect, tolerance, justice, for all, no matter the nation. All the officers during the war in the Balkans who turned away their head and let «thugs» abuse helpless civilians do not deserve to be call a soldier or an officer. This is true for Krstic and also for Gotovina.

"We all know the principle sustaining that an ACTION always carry a REACTION. Then, if I show disrespect for you; you will probably show disrespect to me. If I hit you, you will probably hit me also... if you lack control on yourself.

This is what happening in Croatia."

if theres any logic to the claim in this msg at all, does this logic apply to what was happening in croatia in 1991, as a reaction to jasenovac action?
or does this gentleman believe that there is some sort of a time limit for this logic, after which it becomes unacceptable to in this way react to actions?

«Until the people realize that they are constantly used as a tool for political agendas there will not be unity nor peace in the Balkans»

Unity and peace will come in the Balkans when the people speak the truth about what happened in the Balkans during the last 10 or 15 years!

There is a palpable hatred among the three communities and I feel it when I go there and talk with the people. Next time, talk about the real thing with the people... and you’lle be able after to comment on the real issues.

Yes it's unfortunate but I wouldn't blame the government or press - citizens are genuinely mad about the verdict.

I condemn all acts of group punishment but on the other hand, returnees have to realize that they are in Croatia. They are Serbian by ancestry and have state funded Serbian institutions. In return they have to accept Croatia as their motherland, or at least, accept Croatian rule.

That 17 year old kid in Vukovar should reflect on where he wants to be. In my view, advocating for genocide can cause one to be stripped of their citizenship.

«...I am not the only individual who disagreed with your comment (#3) that you posted...»

As long as you agree with #1 and #2!

I do not agree with you all the time either dur to your lack of objectivity.

Most Serbs turned against Croatia in 1991. Not all, but many participated in the murder of Croats and the burning and looting of Croat homes, not to mention nearly 500,000 forced into exile from the war and occupation (1991-1995).

Until justice is properly served there will always be those taking out their anger.

If you look at where the incidents took place it was in the regions that experienced the most brutal of Serbian war crimes .... Vukovar and the area north of Zadar. Not a justification for what happened but gives some reason behind the retaliations.

«We all know the principle sustaining that an ACTION always carry a REACTION.»

When I use the words «we all know», it's to refer to common culture and knowledge.

Of course, we all know the principle ACTION/REACTION, Newton's Third Law of Motion

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

That's all I meant by WE ALL KNOW! As we say in French: «C'est une vérité de La Palisse.»

Victor,
I know what you meant, it was just an ignorant comment and not suitable for the situation. This has nothing to do with an ACTION as you say. It was just a hateful REACTION to something completely out of the hands of the SERBS. I would maybe, maybe understand if these 3 were tried in Belgrade and Croats were frustrated with Serbs because they felt the outcome was light. Yet there are no excuses for what Croats did and once again I will reiterate that I know the region really well, I have done numerous research projects on the Balkan history/war and the world has come accustomed to a low standard when dealing with Serbs because of the fact that the western lobby make it seem that ALL SERBS are evil and equated them with Nazis, which is far from the truth. Serbs are NOT guilty as a people rather the Serb, Croat, Muslim politicians as well as West are to blame for what happened and how it happened. Until the people realize that they are constantly used as a tool for political agendas there will not be unity nor peace in the Balkans. As we see Croats still blame innocent Serbs for what happened thus proving my point that Croats think Serbs are guilty as a people but Croats fail to reflect on what they themselves did in the war mainly because the West omitted to portray them is such a way.

SinCity,
If as you claim most Serbs civilians were involved in the criminal activities that went on in Croatia then the war would have been won by the SERBS. How many Serbs lived in Croatia before 1991? 400,000? I believe the number is something like that and lets say as YOU claim that many were involved in war crimes, you would have had a militia which would have been too large for Croats to handle. If this was all true then Croatia would be speaking SERBIAN. I am being sarcastic obviously however you fantasize very well. I doubt that there is even a 1% chance that these refugees that returned were guilty of anything other then being ethnically cleansed. Since you speak of displacement, why don’t we use Victor’s logic and state that the REACTION to Serb "aggression" already occurred. Don’t you remember Operation Storm in which majority of the Serbs were ethnically cleansed. How many more REACTIONS do you need to satisfy your taste, for you to say that the REACTION was sufficient and be content? I think ethnic cleansing of 400,000 people is enough, but maybe you might believe that continued torture and murder of innocent civilians would tickle your fancy. If so we are returning back to the WW2 and the Balkan War. I think people have to realize that the war ended and people should move forward. The most important way is to understand what happened to you in the war and also realize what you did. That way you understand that there were no angels rather crooked politicians and INNOCENT civilians, who to little fault of their own were involved in such an ugly event.

I have traveled to all of the former Yugoslav republics and spoke to people on variety of issues. Each complaint sounds the same, each community criticizes the other but fails to REFLECT. That is the issue, people in the Balkans see themselves as holding the only right opinion. When you do that you can never understand the alternative point of view and you will always feel like the victim even if sometimes you are not. That is the case here, Croats in this situation still feel like the victims because they feel like all of their history is righteous, and we all know its not.

«Serbian properties in Benkovac have been demolished and fights have broken out between Serbs and Croats in Vukovar.»

I am sure that the judges at the ICTY did not even think of the consequences of such a verdict. They are responsible for the violence generated by this incorrect judgment.

I do not agree though with the Croats to turn against innocent people who have suffered just as much as them of the war, and young Serbs should be thought not to be arrogant and learn about History, if they don't want it to be repeated.

«...I am not the only individual who disagreed with your comment (#3) that you posted...»

As long as you agree with #1 and #2!

I do not agree with you all the time either dur to your lack of objectivity.

Well here it goes again, as an American I can not understand why Serbs want to live in Croatia anyway. My study of this region, as far as I understand it, is the Croatians should be greatful that the Serbs fought for the Croats amacipation from the Austrian yoke. If it were not for the Serbs they would have been still under some one elses rule.The Serbs of Croatia have been victimized three times this past century. I believe that would be a hint that all Serbs are not welcome! All Serbs in Croatia today should sell their property and move to Serbia and help build a strong future for the next generation.

Yes it's unfortunate but I wouldn't blame the government or press - citizens are genuinely mad about the verdict.

I condemn all acts of group punishment but on the other hand, returnees have to realize that they are in Croatia. They are Serbian by ancestry and have state funded Serbian institutions. In return they have to accept Croatia as their motherland, or at least, accept Croatian rule.

That 17 year old kid in Vukovar should reflect on where he wants to be. In my view, advocating for genocide can cause one to be stripped of their citizenship.

Roger,

We all know the principle sustaining that an ACTION always carry a REACTION. Then, if I show disrespect for you; you will probably show disrespect to me. If I hit you, you will probably hit me also... if you lack control on yourself.

This is what happening in Croatia. Could we conclude that the Croats who have reacted very violently have showed a lack of control.

I agree with you. «Each individual is responsible for their own actions.»

«We all know the principle sustaining that an ACTION always carry a REACTION.»

When I use the words «we all know», it's to refer to common culture and knowledge.

Of course, we all know the principle ACTION/REACTION, Newton's Third Law of Motion

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

That's all I meant by WE ALL KNOW! As we say in French: «C'est une vérité de La Palisse.»

It is happening again, burning the Serb houses.

Well I hate to say I told you so but this is exactly what I was talking about yesterday.

The Croatian media and some politicians have whipped the Croatian people up into a frenzy and this is the result.

No reflection, no consideration of maybe what the Croatian public have been told may not be completely true. Only anger at the contravention of the official view.

Do we all feel better now for the outpouring? And of course the comments by the Serb on Ovcara in Vukovar are to be condemned as well.

Go ahead press the genocide suit and when theat fails go on another feeding frenzy with Serbs as victims. :(

"I am sure that the judges at the ICTY did not even think of the consequences of such a verdict. They are responsible for the violence generated by this incorrect judgment. "

Well this shows that our friend victor condones these crimes against Serbs.

victor, maybe you got the verdict mixed up with gotovina.

Nice Vic, blame the Hague for the behavior of the Croat individuals who burned down ppls homes.
"They're angles, its the hague thats guilty".......poor form Vic, very poor


BK

Victor,
Are you suggesting that serbs will be ethnically cleansed by Croatia YET AGAIN if we remain "arrogant"??

Victor the ONLY people responsible for the violence are those that are carrying it out. Nobody else.

Stop pandering to them. Unacceptable, no exceptions or excuses.

“I am sure that the judges at the ICTY did not even think of the consequences of such a verdict. They are responsible for the violence generated by this incorrect judgment.”

In a civilized and democratic society, when there are disagreements, people do not respond by committing arson.

That they don’t agree with a verdict does not make the judges responsible for their crimes.

Each individual is responsible for their own actions.

well it looks like the croatian government has to restore the homes again and the people shouldnt blame anyone there was the verdict that means nothing was found on those guys.all thats doing is making croatia look bad .

We need serbs from baranja to move to Vukovar and Ilok... that way we will be a majority there and will have the place under our control.

"I am sure that the judges at the ICTY did not even think of the consequences of such a verdict. They are responsible for the violence generated by this incorrect judgment."

does this gentleman live in a lawless country somewhere? someone should explain to him that judges rule based on evidence not in anticipation of what the mob will say.

btw... don't remember any muslim houses destroyed in serbia or rs for that matter when that oric character was set free. on the same day as vukovar, they set limaj free, no albanian flats demolished in belgrade or presevo.

no excuses for violence, no double standards, pls.

«Well this shows that our friend victor condones these crimes against Serbs. »

Ratko,

I have always been for respect, tolerance, justice, for all, no matter the nation. All the officers during the war in the Balkans who turned away their head and let «thugs» abuse helpless civilians do not deserve to be call a soldier or an officer. This is true for Krstic and also for Gotovina.

"We all know the principle sustaining that an ACTION always carry a REACTION. Then, if I show disrespect for you; you will probably show disrespect to me. If I hit you, you will probably hit me also... if you lack control on yourself.

This is what happening in Croatia."

if theres any logic to the claim in this msg at all, does this logic apply to what was happening in croatia in 1991, as a reaction to jasenovac action?
or does this gentleman believe that there is some sort of a time limit for this logic, after which it becomes unacceptable to in this way react to actions?

Victor says…”We all know the principle sustaining that an ACTION always carry a REACTION. Then, if I show disrespect for you; you will probably show disrespect to me. If I hit you, you will probably hit me also... if you lack control on yourself.”

Quite frequently, Victor, you generalize and make such comments as “We all know” and preach the flawed idea of collective quilt. Please know that I disagree with you more often than not and I do not know what you believe. I am not guilty of anyone’s crime and I do not believe in revenge.

The acceptable reaction for every action is not disrespect, revenge and breaking the law. The reaction should be civil and not vengeful and within the confines of the law. As a parent raising two sons, I would be doing them a terrible disservice to teach them to seek “an eye for an eye”.

I am not the only individual who disagreed with your comment (#3) that you posted. Clearly, “we do not all know” what you know.

I completely disagree with Victor because those refugees are not responsible for what happened in Vukovar nor in Hauge. It would be like saying that Croat civilians are responsible for what happened to them in Vukovar. These are HATE crimes which should not be tolerated and they are more reminiscent of the Balkan wars which ripped through Yugoslavia. I am appalled that Victor has the audacity to claim that each Action has a Reaction. So should Serbs now organize a militia and destroy Croats homes? Is this how you Victor handle problems and conflicts? Very poor call Victor, shame on you! This is a typical reaction, its always someone else’s fault. Serbs have not done anything to Croats over the past 10 yrs the Serbian president even had the courage to apologize for the war crimes something the Croats have not nor do I expect them to do. If they ever decide to apologize they will have to start from WW2. Also if it had been Serbs committing these criminal acts to Croats, Bosniaks, or Albanians the article would have been on BBC.

John#2,

You just forgot to add that it would also pop up on CNN as a top story of the day. And the headline would read, "SERBS KILLING CROATS AGAIN!"

Victor,
I know what you meant, it was just an ignorant comment and not suitable for the situation. This has nothing to do with an ACTION as you say. It was just a hateful REACTION to something completely out of the hands of the SERBS. I would maybe, maybe understand if these 3 were tried in Belgrade and Croats were frustrated with Serbs because they felt the outcome was light. Yet there are no excuses for what Croats did and once again I will reiterate that I know the region really well, I have done numerous research projects on the Balkan history/war and the world has come accustomed to a low standard when dealing with Serbs because of the fact that the western lobby make it seem that ALL SERBS are evil and equated them with Nazis, which is far from the truth. Serbs are NOT guilty as a people rather the Serb, Croat, Muslim politicians as well as West are to blame for what happened and how it happened. Until the people realize that they are constantly used as a tool for political agendas there will not be unity nor peace in the Balkans. As we see Croats still blame innocent Serbs for what happened thus proving my point that Croats think Serbs are guilty as a people but Croats fail to reflect on what they themselves did in the war mainly because the West omitted to portray them is such a way.

Most Serbs turned against Croatia in 1991. Not all, but many participated in the murder of Croats and the burning and looting of Croat homes, not to mention nearly 500,000 forced into exile from the war and occupation (1991-1995).

Until justice is properly served there will always be those taking out their anger.

If you look at where the incidents took place it was in the regions that experienced the most brutal of Serbian war crimes .... Vukovar and the area north of Zadar. Not a justification for what happened but gives some reason behind the retaliations.

SinCity,
If as you claim most Serbs civilians were involved in the criminal activities that went on in Croatia then the war would have been won by the SERBS. How many Serbs lived in Croatia before 1991? 400,000? I believe the number is something like that and lets say as YOU claim that many were involved in war crimes, you would have had a militia which would have been too large for Croats to handle. If this was all true then Croatia would be speaking SERBIAN. I am being sarcastic obviously however you fantasize very well. I doubt that there is even a 1% chance that these refugees that returned were guilty of anything other then being ethnically cleansed. Since you speak of displacement, why don’t we use Victor’s logic and state that the REACTION to Serb "aggression" already occurred. Don’t you remember Operation Storm in which majority of the Serbs were ethnically cleansed. How many more REACTIONS do you need to satisfy your taste, for you to say that the REACTION was sufficient and be content? I think ethnic cleansing of 400,000 people is enough, but maybe you might believe that continued torture and murder of innocent civilians would tickle your fancy. If so we are returning back to the WW2 and the Balkan War. I think people have to realize that the war ended and people should move forward. The most important way is to understand what happened to you in the war and also realize what you did. That way you understand that there were no angels rather crooked politicians and INNOCENT civilians, who to little fault of their own were involved in such an ugly event.

«Until the people realize that they are constantly used as a tool for political agendas there will not be unity nor peace in the Balkans»

Unity and peace will come in the Balkans when the people speak the truth about what happened in the Balkans during the last 10 or 15 years!

There is a palpable hatred among the three communities and I feel it when I go there and talk with the people. Next time, talk about the real thing with the people... and you’lle be able after to comment on the real issues.

I have traveled to all of the former Yugoslav republics and spoke to people on variety of issues. Each complaint sounds the same, each community criticizes the other but fails to REFLECT. That is the issue, people in the Balkans see themselves as holding the only right opinion. When you do that you can never understand the alternative point of view and you will always feel like the victim even if sometimes you are not. That is the case here, Croats in this situation still feel like the victims because they feel like all of their history is righteous, and we all know its not.