Who cares about Kosovo independence. Kosovo is small and full of drugsmuglers. The world have greater issues to take into concideration like the environment.
For someone who is not a Serb you're often "more catholic than the pope." :-) It's an Albanian saying ...
I'm kind of curious why that is and what nationality you are.
With regard to this article and others, I'll have to agree with Jovan here. It's too early to "declare victory" by either side. One thing is for certain though. These "direct" talks are a farce because for good or ill, the status of Kosovo will be determined by today's powers. It's 1913 all over again... even though the outcome may well be more favorable for the Albos this time around.
It seems like both sides have reduced themselves one more time to puppets on strings and I find that disturbing.
The Serbs probably have no love for Ramush Haradinaj, but I wonder whether a deal might have been reached by now had he been involved in the negotiations. He seems to have a reputation as a deal-maker kind of guy.
"With all due respect Kate but last time I checked 1244 resolution states Yugoslavia's sovereignty.
Yugoslavia is dead thus 1224 is invalid. Res 1244 does not apply anymore the moment that Serbia & Montenegro union was created. That union is dead as well and both countries went their own way.
Now we have a new independent country called Serbia claiming to be the sole heir to the sovereignty of ex Yugoslavia therefore want 1244 to be applied.
It's nice diplomatic move nonetheless but what if Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro and other republics claim the same and want to be the sole heir to ex Yugoslavia sovereignty? I am sure Serbia wouldn't like that move either. Thus, in this case, Kosova, EU & USA finds Serbia's claim as unacceptable and invalid. So after 10 of Dec this will be a valid claim and within international law for Eu & USA to recognize Kosova's Independence.
(Flamur,London, 27. September 2007 21:55)"
Flamur,
You are utterly confused.
The Yugoslavia stated in 1244 does not refer to the Yugoslavia of 1991 (with 6 republics). It refers to 1999's Yugoslavia (comprising Serbia and Montenegro). When Montenegro became independent, Serbia was recognized by the UN as the successor state to 1999's Yugoslavia which 1244 applies.
And what if a region wants to break away from a country but that area is divided over several areas (divide and conquer). Do they say: oh, we are not even a provice, forget.
The reality is: the Kosovars are looking for reasons.
Instead of interpreting the facts and then making your conclusions.
Sorry, EA and others, but if Kosovo was a republic things would be differnt.
Hey, if my dad was king of Holland things would be differnt for me. That's life!
Don't get me wrong: SERBIA NEEDS A GIVE KOSOVO A HUGE AMOUNT OF INDEPENDENT. UN TROOPS CAN STAY THERE. WESTERN MONEY IS NEEDED!
I say yes to all. But not to independence. Is that really so important? Get a life, and party on! We love you!
Thanks for the link but I don't see any difference of what I said and the paragraph on ur link.
The Socialist “Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was an original Member of the United Nations, the Charter having been signed on its behalf on 26 June 1945 and ratified 19 October 1945, until its dissolution following the establishment and subsequent admission as new Members of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Croatia, the Republic of Slovenia, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia"
If u read carefully it states quite clear that Yugoslavia was a member of UN from 1945 until its dissolution following... admission as new members etc. In another words Yugoslavia was dead the moment that other republics claimed their own membership, as you stated urself.
See also the dates of when Serbia was admitted, 1 Nov 2000 which is quite different with Yugoslavia 1945.Anyway its waste of time trying to explain this to you now.
Mark my word, Eu & USA will use exactly this point when they will recognize Kosova's Independence
As per ur question
"And if resolution 1244 is not valid anymore, then why isn't Kosovo independent already?"
(Rokka, 28. September 2007 00:09)
Well there are alot of reasons why Kosova is not independent yet but I will try to write a few.
1. It would've looked quite bad for International bodies who saved almost 2 million Albanians from masacres, rapes and starvation from Serbian Authority, to recognise them there and then and could not justify that move to their voters. They didn't want to look like someone breaking other countries so openly.
2. Wars on Iraq, Afghanistan and on terrorist made more headlines than Kosova hence the delay.
3. Status quo means more earnings for some UN Administrator.
4. In any state which is in transition u have crime and money laundering, again in the interest of those who administer that state, hence the prolonging of the final status.
Finally, the last 2 years of constant negotiations, conferences, meetings etc done by UN(Ahtisaari ) gave no results by either side,hence now we have the Ahtisaari's proposal-plan.
Since even this proposal was not accepted, the international bodies gave Serbia another chance to come up with another of their plan. Unfortunately Serbia gave mixed msg and International bodies were fed up and chose the 10 of dec 2007 as a final date.
Now all I say to you and everyone, just be patient and soon we will have an outcome.
A common sense says it will be Independent whereas Kate, Cvele, Princip and Co say never Independent, just some autonomy. So I say lets wait and see.
Hope this answered ur question which I am sure you already knew but its hard to accept it.
Link for you Flamur:http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/org1469.doc.htm#_edn12
Why is it that always when talk in here turns in to resolution 1244, albanians and other "independent Kosova" people are quick to state that Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore, and that's why resolution 1244 is null? The fact is(like it or not) that Serbia is the successor of Yugoslavia in UN, and there for inherited UN membership. Saying that Slovenia and Croatia and Bosnia have same right to yugoslavias membership in UN is here nor there, since they applied and received their own brand new membership. And Serbia inherited the old Yu membership. And if resolution 1244 is not valid anymore, then why isn't Kosovo independent already?
Kate
Resolution 1244 is very specific in that it protects Serbia's sovereignty. The text can't be changed to alter the basis of the resolution, any more than a constitution can be changed outside of democratic process."
With all due respect Kate but last time I checked 1244 resolution states Yugoslavia's sovereignty.
Yugoslavia is dead thus 1224 is invalid. Res 1244 does not apply anymore the moment that Serbia & Montenegro union was created. That union is dead as well and both countries went their own way.
Now we have a new independent country called Serbia claiming to be the sole heir to the sovereignty of ex Yugoslavia therefore want 1244 to be applied.
It's nice diplomatic move nonetheless but what if Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro and other republics claim the same and want to be the sole heir to ex Yugoslavia sovereignty? I am sure Serbia wouldn't like that move either. Thus, in this case, Kosova, EU & USA finds Serbia's claim as unacceptable and invalid. So after 10 of Dec this will be a valid claim and within international law for Eu & USA to recognize Kosova's Independence.
Serbia never asked for half of Albania did they?!
(kate, 27. September 2007 17:15)
Yes Kate, it did, in 1913, asking for the albanian-inhabitated land down to the river Shkumbin, Middle Albania, including the harbour of Durres, the main harbour of to-day Albania (guess why?), and occupying militarily (our Serbian friends would say "liberating" the half of the to-day Albania.
As a result of international power-balances and FULLY IGNORING the wish of the inhabitants of the occupied lands, Serbia got the today Kosovo and the to-day Macedonia, the Western part of which was also mainly albanian-inhabitated.
No one bothered then to offer a special status in form of an Ahtisari plan to the Albanians. Were that to happen then, or at any time until 1998, the K-Albanians today would have been the most loyal citizens of Serbia (as you so hole-heartedly wish).
There are plenty of readings on the topic, even from Serbian side (e.g. Dimitrije Tucovic). You'll be able then to understand the Albanian unwillingness to an Intl Law which would condemn them to return to very bad experiences. Taht is why virtually all K-Albanians are in favour of the independence from Serbia (but virtually no one would be against the dependence from the EU). Adding the impossibility for Serbia to rule the land again (excluding of course military handling), its proposal to renounce even to the border control (what kind of sovereignity then?) here you have the outcome, or the exception to the law, or the broad interpretation of the (in)famous 1244. Sorry to notice that Mr. Jeremic is more long-sighted than an you are.
James its true. It is for the will of the people. ALL people of Serbia. Since it reaffirms our sovereignty over Kosovo. Referendum was held and Kosovo remains with Serbia.
"Voice of America says that the so-called Plan B, as dubbed by daily Frankfurter Rundschau, effectively interprets resolution 1244 so broadly that it allows Priština to declare independence, and other countries to recognize it."
Isn't that what people do with various religious scripts to justify killing etc?
Resolution 1244 is very specific in that it protects Serbia's sovereignty. The text can't be changed to alter the basis of the resolution, any more than a constitution can be changed outside of democratic process.
All this shows is a complete state of shameful desperation by the US and various followers.
I am not surprised. I think we will see an independent Kosovo in a couple of months.
There is as far as I am concern no other alternative. I believe the Serbian side is offering concessions to Kosovo in exchange for Independence but it is highly unlikely that Kosovo will ever accept having even the slightest legal connections to Serbia. We should not forget that it was a Serbian State sponsored attempt to ethnically clean Kosovo and now we are dealing with a Serbian State sponsored “offer of substantial autonomy”. Anyone considering the substantial autonomy should realistically view the current situation in Kosovo. Kosovo has substantial autonomy. Kosovo has control over its borders; it is governed by, in reports assessed as “a democratically elected assembly” and has many other structures that define a sovereign state.
What should be offered is Substantial Independence. But the Kosovars have chosen to make concessions to this and are willing to accept “supervised independence”. A big step if you ask me. If we view the Ahtisaari Plan carefully we will see that the majority of the plan is concentrated on forming a highly decentralized independent Kosovo where the Serbs are given clearly more than their percentage could legitimize. The Serbian counterpart should enter new negotiations with the aim of sustaining the rights given to the Serb minority in Kosovo and if possible enforce them even more.
Being from Sweden I have even, though Burma has taken a lot of attention, lately been reading articles and comments from leading politicians and experts on the inevitability of resolving the Status of Kosovo without any delay and with a result that respects the democratic will of the people that will be most touched with the decision. There is also clearly no need for the Security Council to approve a resolution since it has shown to have clear flaws and an inability to act quickly enough.
It will therefore be with great interest that I follow the situation in Kosovo and the actions taken by the European Union. It is highly interesting to see if all our tax payers’ money has been well spent and if the EU is capable of steering Kosovo towards its final destination, Independence.
Anyone believing that Albanians will accept to give almost half of the nation to Serbia is completely wrong.
I think Albanians should act in clear an frank manner to these attempts of EU to trade with Russia on expense of Albanians- as they did in 1913. We’re not on sale. Auction can be closed. The philosophy ‘where they will get the money?’ is immoral. Now one ever made such a questions to neither of the nations seeking for independence. Did someone asked that form Algeria, Morocco, Macedonia, Montenegro...?
Wow, look at this now! There is a plan B that allows a broad interpretation of the 1244 UN resolution. Very interesting development, this is. 1244 indeed reaffirms sovereignty of the former Yugoslavia, however, additionally, it speaks about a final solution to the issue of Kosovo. When speaking about the final solution this resolution does not mention sovereignty anywhere at all nor does it reaffirm with respect to the future solution. Instead it refers to the Rambouillet accord which stipulates among others that a final settlement should be sought on the basis of the will of the people, opinions of relevant authorities, each Party's efforts regarding the implementation of this Agreement, and the Helsinki Final Act ...
Looking back, from the beginning of the Ahtisaari talks, and the events that brought us to the present situation this plan B was always the plan A. What "relevant authorities" wanted was a compromise or an agreement around the "will of the people". Furthermore, "the will of the people" was compromised even further when Kosovo side agreed to the EU supervision (they basically replaced Yugoslav sovereignty with EU supervision). So there is nothing new in this article, this was the only plan all along, from the first day the NATO campaign started. Milosevic refused this for exactly these reasons and not the he was stupid or something else. Having said this, if Serbia had chosen a democratic way of addressing this issue, Rambouillet, NATO campaign, and the famous 1244 would have never happened. By opening the can of worms and letting the worms out, Serbia created a mess that it could not handle, this brought the big powers in and here we are today.
What is amazing though, is the Russia's position in all this. They went along with this all the way until they managed to find suitable people in charge of Serbia (I would not be surprised if they worked fervently to get these people in charge, these remnants of Milosevic era) who would take the lead into stirring up things for the West (EU and US) and hampering their own democratic developments. This way Russia plays this game through its proxy, Serbia, who in the end is going to bear all the weight of the looming decision in the final settlement of the Kosovo issue. For the big powers life goes on despite Kosovo issue. On the other hand Serbia, instead of capitalizing on this opportunity and extending a hand of cooperation to Kosovo, become the first to recognize Kosovo's independence, improve the shattered image that Serbia has around the world, tap into the economic resources of EU as well as secure economical benefits within Kosovo itself, and move forward with economic development, overall turn the page for good for its people, Serbia chooses to be the Russia's proxy and do its dirty politics. The price for this will be Serbia's and its people alone to pay.
You see, Serbia can chose not to accept, so as some of you continuously claim that some day you can reclaim Kosovo again, since the powers of world will shift; but as things are the end of the world will happen long before this shift of powers takes place and Kosovo's independence is inevitable.
Might as well have plans C's D's E's and when you run out of letters use hieroglyphics because unless Russia approves. Goodbye Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine, Bosnia, Macedonia and so on. As well as any hope of relief for EU in terms of energy.
As for interpreting the Resolution 1244 differently doesn't mean the separatist regions will. Therefore, neither will Spain, Greece, Cyprus and so on. So still no EU unity.
I had to laugh when i read this. It just goes to show how desperate they are in trying to find a solution that suits them. One problem though, the following two paragraphs in resolution 1244:
Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,
Reaffirming the call in previous resolutions for substantial autonomy and meaningful self-administration for Kosovo.
And for all the Albanians that don't know about it yet, the UN recognised that Serbia took over from the FRY when Montenegro split away.
I can hear that argument crashing and burning right now in the UN.
Ahhh, the good old Texas sharpshooter approach. If you can't win by being more accurate than your opponent (complying with 1244), hit a blank wall and draw a target around the hole. Bullseye!
Not that international law has ever been anything else anyway. The strongest country uses force to get what it wants and then makes up rules, morals and international principles a posteriori, justifying whatever actions have already been taken.
I really ask myself what this wishful thinking is all about!
there is no such thing like a solution based on international law WITHOUT a resolution of the UNSC! if it was that easy, they wouldn´t have made such a big thing of it in prior.
so, how I interprete this socalled "news-article" by B92: if I do not have anything to publish, I publish anything.
and of course, all those emotionally engaged Albanian posters will once again jump around and boast how they have won, and how independence is a done deal...
I say, let´s see what future brings...but, ... better don´t buy the celbration-cake yet... you could waste your money!
Too much time has been wasted to please Serbia and Russia. Kosova deserves to move forward to its European future and freed from its hostage-takers with any price. In the modern world you can not force anyone into marrage. I hope it makes sense for the readers here. The separation between Kosova and Serbia happened since 1999. Two years takes for couple to live separatedly and you are automatically divorced according to British and French law. I hope that is also the case for the Serbian law. If not who cares. Important is that Europe and USA should decide swiftly to Kosova Sovereignity and certainly it will happen after the 10th of December. All the talk about "compromise" and "further negotiation" are demagogy.
I think I should reserve judgement until the sources are named and the details of this Plan B are clarified.
Meanwhile the EU (aka UK, France and probably Germany) should realize that this is a double-edged sword. They are not the only ones who can interpret 1244 broadly. So can Moscow, Belgrade and anybody else ......
I am not surprised. I think we will see an independent Kosovo in a couple of months.
There is as far as I am concern no other alternative. I believe the Serbian side is offering concessions to Kosovo in exchange for Independence but it is highly unlikely that Kosovo will ever accept having even the slightest legal connections to Serbia. We should not forget that it was a Serbian State sponsored attempt to ethnically clean Kosovo and now we are dealing with a Serbian State sponsored “offer of substantial autonomy”. Anyone considering the substantial autonomy should realistically view the current situation in Kosovo. Kosovo has substantial autonomy. Kosovo has control over its borders; it is governed by, in reports assessed as “a democratically elected assembly” and has many other structures that define a sovereign state.
What should be offered is Substantial Independence. But the Kosovars have chosen to make concessions to this and are willing to accept “supervised independence”. A big step if you ask me. If we view the Ahtisaari Plan carefully we will see that the majority of the plan is concentrated on forming a highly decentralized independent Kosovo where the Serbs are given clearly more than their percentage could legitimize. The Serbian counterpart should enter new negotiations with the aim of sustaining the rights given to the Serb minority in Kosovo and if possible enforce them even more.
Being from Sweden I have even, though Burma has taken a lot of attention, lately been reading articles and comments from leading politicians and experts on the inevitability of resolving the Status of Kosovo without any delay and with a result that respects the democratic will of the people that will be most touched with the decision. There is also clearly no need for the Security Council to approve a resolution since it has shown to have clear flaws and an inability to act quickly enough.
It will therefore be with great interest that I follow the situation in Kosovo and the actions taken by the European Union. It is highly interesting to see if all our tax payers’ money has been well spent and if the EU is capable of steering Kosovo towards its final destination, Independence.
Too much time has been wasted to please Serbia and Russia. Kosova deserves to move forward to its European future and freed from its hostage-takers with any price. In the modern world you can not force anyone into marrage. I hope it makes sense for the readers here. The separation between Kosova and Serbia happened since 1999. Two years takes for couple to live separatedly and you are automatically divorced according to British and French law. I hope that is also the case for the Serbian law. If not who cares. Important is that Europe and USA should decide swiftly to Kosova Sovereignity and certainly it will happen after the 10th of December. All the talk about "compromise" and "further negotiation" are demagogy.
Might as well have plans C's D's E's and when you run out of letters use hieroglyphics because unless Russia approves. Goodbye Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine, Bosnia, Macedonia and so on. As well as any hope of relief for EU in terms of energy.
As for interpreting the Resolution 1244 differently doesn't mean the separatist regions will. Therefore, neither will Spain, Greece, Cyprus and so on. So still no EU unity.
Wow, look at this now! There is a plan B that allows a broad interpretation of the 1244 UN resolution. Very interesting development, this is. 1244 indeed reaffirms sovereignty of the former Yugoslavia, however, additionally, it speaks about a final solution to the issue of Kosovo. When speaking about the final solution this resolution does not mention sovereignty anywhere at all nor does it reaffirm with respect to the future solution. Instead it refers to the Rambouillet accord which stipulates among others that a final settlement should be sought on the basis of the will of the people, opinions of relevant authorities, each Party's efforts regarding the implementation of this Agreement, and the Helsinki Final Act ...
Looking back, from the beginning of the Ahtisaari talks, and the events that brought us to the present situation this plan B was always the plan A. What "relevant authorities" wanted was a compromise or an agreement around the "will of the people". Furthermore, "the will of the people" was compromised even further when Kosovo side agreed to the EU supervision (they basically replaced Yugoslav sovereignty with EU supervision). So there is nothing new in this article, this was the only plan all along, from the first day the NATO campaign started. Milosevic refused this for exactly these reasons and not the he was stupid or something else. Having said this, if Serbia had chosen a democratic way of addressing this issue, Rambouillet, NATO campaign, and the famous 1244 would have never happened. By opening the can of worms and letting the worms out, Serbia created a mess that it could not handle, this brought the big powers in and here we are today.
What is amazing though, is the Russia's position in all this. They went along with this all the way until they managed to find suitable people in charge of Serbia (I would not be surprised if they worked fervently to get these people in charge, these remnants of Milosevic era) who would take the lead into stirring up things for the West (EU and US) and hampering their own democratic developments. This way Russia plays this game through its proxy, Serbia, who in the end is going to bear all the weight of the looming decision in the final settlement of the Kosovo issue. For the big powers life goes on despite Kosovo issue. On the other hand Serbia, instead of capitalizing on this opportunity and extending a hand of cooperation to Kosovo, become the first to recognize Kosovo's independence, improve the shattered image that Serbia has around the world, tap into the economic resources of EU as well as secure economical benefits within Kosovo itself, and move forward with economic development, overall turn the page for good for its people, Serbia chooses to be the Russia's proxy and do its dirty politics. The price for this will be Serbia's and its people alone to pay.
You see, Serbia can chose not to accept, so as some of you continuously claim that some day you can reclaim Kosovo again, since the powers of world will shift; but as things are the end of the world will happen long before this shift of powers takes place and Kosovo's independence is inevitable.
James its true. It is for the will of the people. ALL people of Serbia. Since it reaffirms our sovereignty over Kosovo. Referendum was held and Kosovo remains with Serbia.
"Voice of America says that the so-called Plan B, as dubbed by daily Frankfurter Rundschau, effectively interprets resolution 1244 so broadly that it allows Priština to declare independence, and other countries to recognize it."
Isn't that what people do with various religious scripts to justify killing etc?
Resolution 1244 is very specific in that it protects Serbia's sovereignty. The text can't be changed to alter the basis of the resolution, any more than a constitution can be changed outside of democratic process.
All this shows is a complete state of shameful desperation by the US and various followers.
Ahhh, the good old Texas sharpshooter approach. If you can't win by being more accurate than your opponent (complying with 1244), hit a blank wall and draw a target around the hole. Bullseye!
Not that international law has ever been anything else anyway. The strongest country uses force to get what it wants and then makes up rules, morals and international principles a posteriori, justifying whatever actions have already been taken.
I think I should reserve judgement until the sources are named and the details of this Plan B are clarified.
Meanwhile the EU (aka UK, France and probably Germany) should realize that this is a double-edged sword. They are not the only ones who can interpret 1244 broadly. So can Moscow, Belgrade and anybody else ......
I had to laugh when i read this. It just goes to show how desperate they are in trying to find a solution that suits them. One problem though, the following two paragraphs in resolution 1244:
Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,
Reaffirming the call in previous resolutions for substantial autonomy and meaningful self-administration for Kosovo.
And for all the Albanians that don't know about it yet, the UN recognised that Serbia took over from the FRY when Montenegro split away.
I can hear that argument crashing and burning right now in the UN.
I really ask myself what this wishful thinking is all about!
there is no such thing like a solution based on international law WITHOUT a resolution of the UNSC! if it was that easy, they wouldn´t have made such a big thing of it in prior.
so, how I interprete this socalled "news-article" by B92: if I do not have anything to publish, I publish anything.
and of course, all those emotionally engaged Albanian posters will once again jump around and boast how they have won, and how independence is a done deal...
I say, let´s see what future brings...but, ... better don´t buy the celbration-cake yet... you could waste your money!
Anyone believing that Albanians will accept to give almost half of the nation to Serbia is completely wrong.
I think Albanians should act in clear an frank manner to these attempts of EU to trade with Russia on expense of Albanians- as they did in 1913. We’re not on sale. Auction can be closed. The philosophy ‘where they will get the money?’ is immoral. Now one ever made such a questions to neither of the nations seeking for independence. Did someone asked that form Algeria, Morocco, Macedonia, Montenegro...?
Serbia never asked for half of Albania did they?!
(kate, 27. September 2007 17:15)
Yes Kate, it did, in 1913, asking for the albanian-inhabitated land down to the river Shkumbin, Middle Albania, including the harbour of Durres, the main harbour of to-day Albania (guess why?), and occupying militarily (our Serbian friends would say "liberating" the half of the to-day Albania.
As a result of international power-balances and FULLY IGNORING the wish of the inhabitants of the occupied lands, Serbia got the today Kosovo and the to-day Macedonia, the Western part of which was also mainly albanian-inhabitated.
No one bothered then to offer a special status in form of an Ahtisari plan to the Albanians. Were that to happen then, or at any time until 1998, the K-Albanians today would have been the most loyal citizens of Serbia (as you so hole-heartedly wish).
There are plenty of readings on the topic, even from Serbian side (e.g. Dimitrije Tucovic). You'll be able then to understand the Albanian unwillingness to an Intl Law which would condemn them to return to very bad experiences. Taht is why virtually all K-Albanians are in favour of the independence from Serbia (but virtually no one would be against the dependence from the EU). Adding the impossibility for Serbia to rule the land again (excluding of course military handling), its proposal to renounce even to the border control (what kind of sovereignity then?) here you have the outcome, or the exception to the law, or the broad interpretation of the (in)famous 1244. Sorry to notice that Mr. Jeremic is more long-sighted than an you are.
For someone who is not a Serb you're often "more catholic than the pope." :-) It's an Albanian saying ...
I'm kind of curious why that is and what nationality you are.
With regard to this article and others, I'll have to agree with Jovan here. It's too early to "declare victory" by either side. One thing is for certain though. These "direct" talks are a farce because for good or ill, the status of Kosovo will be determined by today's powers. It's 1913 all over again... even though the outcome may well be more favorable for the Albos this time around.
It seems like both sides have reduced themselves one more time to puppets on strings and I find that disturbing.
The Serbs probably have no love for Ramush Haradinaj, but I wonder whether a deal might have been reached by now had he been involved in the negotiations. He seems to have a reputation as a deal-maker kind of guy.
"With all due respect Kate but last time I checked 1244 resolution states Yugoslavia's sovereignty.
Yugoslavia is dead thus 1224 is invalid. Res 1244 does not apply anymore the moment that Serbia & Montenegro union was created. That union is dead as well and both countries went their own way.
Now we have a new independent country called Serbia claiming to be the sole heir to the sovereignty of ex Yugoslavia therefore want 1244 to be applied.
It's nice diplomatic move nonetheless but what if Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro and other republics claim the same and want to be the sole heir to ex Yugoslavia sovereignty? I am sure Serbia wouldn't like that move either. Thus, in this case, Kosova, EU & USA finds Serbia's claim as unacceptable and invalid. So after 10 of Dec this will be a valid claim and within international law for Eu & USA to recognize Kosova's Independence.
(Flamur,London, 27. September 2007 21:55)"
Flamur,
You are utterly confused.
The Yugoslavia stated in 1244 does not refer to the Yugoslavia of 1991 (with 6 republics). It refers to 1999's Yugoslavia (comprising Serbia and Montenegro). When Montenegro became independent, Serbia was recognized by the UN as the successor state to 1999's Yugoslavia which 1244 applies.
Kate
Resolution 1244 is very specific in that it protects Serbia's sovereignty. The text can't be changed to alter the basis of the resolution, any more than a constitution can be changed outside of democratic process."
With all due respect Kate but last time I checked 1244 resolution states Yugoslavia's sovereignty.
Yugoslavia is dead thus 1224 is invalid. Res 1244 does not apply anymore the moment that Serbia & Montenegro union was created. That union is dead as well and both countries went their own way.
Now we have a new independent country called Serbia claiming to be the sole heir to the sovereignty of ex Yugoslavia therefore want 1244 to be applied.
It's nice diplomatic move nonetheless but what if Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro and other republics claim the same and want to be the sole heir to ex Yugoslavia sovereignty? I am sure Serbia wouldn't like that move either. Thus, in this case, Kosova, EU & USA finds Serbia's claim as unacceptable and invalid. So after 10 of Dec this will be a valid claim and within international law for Eu & USA to recognize Kosova's Independence.
Link for you Flamur:http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/org1469.doc.htm#_edn12
Why is it that always when talk in here turns in to resolution 1244, albanians and other "independent Kosova" people are quick to state that Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore, and that's why resolution 1244 is null? The fact is(like it or not) that Serbia is the successor of Yugoslavia in UN, and there for inherited UN membership. Saying that Slovenia and Croatia and Bosnia have same right to yugoslavias membership in UN is here nor there, since they applied and received their own brand new membership. And Serbia inherited the old Yu membership. And if resolution 1244 is not valid anymore, then why isn't Kosovo independent already?
And what if a region wants to break away from a country but that area is divided over several areas (divide and conquer). Do they say: oh, we are not even a provice, forget.
The reality is: the Kosovars are looking for reasons.
Instead of interpreting the facts and then making your conclusions.
Sorry, EA and others, but if Kosovo was a republic things would be differnt.
Hey, if my dad was king of Holland things would be differnt for me. That's life!
Don't get me wrong: SERBIA NEEDS A GIVE KOSOVO A HUGE AMOUNT OF INDEPENDENT. UN TROOPS CAN STAY THERE. WESTERN MONEY IS NEEDED!
I say yes to all. But not to independence. Is that really so important? Get a life, and party on! We love you!
Thanks for the link but I don't see any difference of what I said and the paragraph on ur link.
The Socialist “Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was an original Member of the United Nations, the Charter having been signed on its behalf on 26 June 1945 and ratified 19 October 1945, until its dissolution following the establishment and subsequent admission as new Members of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Croatia, the Republic of Slovenia, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia"
If u read carefully it states quite clear that Yugoslavia was a member of UN from 1945 until its dissolution following... admission as new members etc. In another words Yugoslavia was dead the moment that other republics claimed their own membership, as you stated urself.
See also the dates of when Serbia was admitted, 1 Nov 2000 which is quite different with Yugoslavia 1945.Anyway its waste of time trying to explain this to you now.
Mark my word, Eu & USA will use exactly this point when they will recognize Kosova's Independence
As per ur question
"And if resolution 1244 is not valid anymore, then why isn't Kosovo independent already?"
(Rokka, 28. September 2007 00:09)
Well there are alot of reasons why Kosova is not independent yet but I will try to write a few.
1. It would've looked quite bad for International bodies who saved almost 2 million Albanians from masacres, rapes and starvation from Serbian Authority, to recognise them there and then and could not justify that move to their voters. They didn't want to look like someone breaking other countries so openly.
2. Wars on Iraq, Afghanistan and on terrorist made more headlines than Kosova hence the delay.
3. Status quo means more earnings for some UN Administrator.
4. In any state which is in transition u have crime and money laundering, again in the interest of those who administer that state, hence the prolonging of the final status.
Finally, the last 2 years of constant negotiations, conferences, meetings etc done by UN(Ahtisaari ) gave no results by either side,hence now we have the Ahtisaari's proposal-plan.
Since even this proposal was not accepted, the international bodies gave Serbia another chance to come up with another of their plan. Unfortunately Serbia gave mixed msg and International bodies were fed up and chose the 10 of dec 2007 as a final date.
Now all I say to you and everyone, just be patient and soon we will have an outcome.
A common sense says it will be Independent whereas Kate, Cvele, Princip and Co say never Independent, just some autonomy. So I say lets wait and see.
Hope this answered ur question which I am sure you already knew but its hard to accept it.
Who cares about Kosovo independence. Kosovo is small and full of drugsmuglers. The world have greater issues to take into concideration like the environment.
"Voice of America says that the so-called Plan B, as dubbed by daily Frankfurter Rundschau, effectively interprets resolution 1244 so broadly that it allows Priština to declare independence, and other countries to recognize it."
Isn't that what people do with various religious scripts to justify killing etc?
Resolution 1244 is very specific in that it protects Serbia's sovereignty. The text can't be changed to alter the basis of the resolution, any more than a constitution can be changed outside of democratic process.
All this shows is a complete state of shameful desperation by the US and various followers.
Anyone believing that Albanians will accept to give almost half of the nation to Serbia is completely wrong.
I think Albanians should act in clear an frank manner to these attempts of EU to trade with Russia on expense of Albanians- as they did in 1913. We’re not on sale. Auction can be closed. The philosophy ‘where they will get the money?’ is immoral. Now one ever made such a questions to neither of the nations seeking for independence. Did someone asked that form Algeria, Morocco, Macedonia, Montenegro...?
Too much time has been wasted to please Serbia and Russia. Kosova deserves to move forward to its European future and freed from its hostage-takers with any price. In the modern world you can not force anyone into marrage. I hope it makes sense for the readers here. The separation between Kosova and Serbia happened since 1999. Two years takes for couple to live separatedly and you are automatically divorced according to British and French law. I hope that is also the case for the Serbian law. If not who cares. Important is that Europe and USA should decide swiftly to Kosova Sovereignity and certainly it will happen after the 10th of December. All the talk about "compromise" and "further negotiation" are demagogy.
Might as well have plans C's D's E's and when you run out of letters use hieroglyphics because unless Russia approves. Goodbye Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine, Bosnia, Macedonia and so on. As well as any hope of relief for EU in terms of energy.
As for interpreting the Resolution 1244 differently doesn't mean the separatist regions will. Therefore, neither will Spain, Greece, Cyprus and so on. So still no EU unity.
Serbia never asked for half of Albania did they?!
(kate, 27. September 2007 17:15)
Yes Kate, it did, in 1913, asking for the albanian-inhabitated land down to the river Shkumbin, Middle Albania, including the harbour of Durres, the main harbour of to-day Albania (guess why?), and occupying militarily (our Serbian friends would say "liberating" the half of the to-day Albania.
As a result of international power-balances and FULLY IGNORING the wish of the inhabitants of the occupied lands, Serbia got the today Kosovo and the to-day Macedonia, the Western part of which was also mainly albanian-inhabitated.
No one bothered then to offer a special status in form of an Ahtisari plan to the Albanians. Were that to happen then, or at any time until 1998, the K-Albanians today would have been the most loyal citizens of Serbia (as you so hole-heartedly wish).
There are plenty of readings on the topic, even from Serbian side (e.g. Dimitrije Tucovic). You'll be able then to understand the Albanian unwillingness to an Intl Law which would condemn them to return to very bad experiences. Taht is why virtually all K-Albanians are in favour of the independence from Serbia (but virtually no one would be against the dependence from the EU). Adding the impossibility for Serbia to rule the land again (excluding of course military handling), its proposal to renounce even to the border control (what kind of sovereignity then?) here you have the outcome, or the exception to the law, or the broad interpretation of the (in)famous 1244. Sorry to notice that Mr. Jeremic is more long-sighted than an you are.
I think I should reserve judgement until the sources are named and the details of this Plan B are clarified.
Meanwhile the EU (aka UK, France and probably Germany) should realize that this is a double-edged sword. They are not the only ones who can interpret 1244 broadly. So can Moscow, Belgrade and anybody else ......
I had to laugh when i read this. It just goes to show how desperate they are in trying to find a solution that suits them. One problem though, the following two paragraphs in resolution 1244:
Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,
Reaffirming the call in previous resolutions for substantial autonomy and meaningful self-administration for Kosovo.
And for all the Albanians that don't know about it yet, the UN recognised that Serbia took over from the FRY when Montenegro split away.
I can hear that argument crashing and burning right now in the UN.
Wow, look at this now! There is a plan B that allows a broad interpretation of the 1244 UN resolution. Very interesting development, this is. 1244 indeed reaffirms sovereignty of the former Yugoslavia, however, additionally, it speaks about a final solution to the issue of Kosovo. When speaking about the final solution this resolution does not mention sovereignty anywhere at all nor does it reaffirm with respect to the future solution. Instead it refers to the Rambouillet accord which stipulates among others that a final settlement should be sought on the basis of the will of the people, opinions of relevant authorities, each Party's efforts regarding the implementation of this Agreement, and the Helsinki Final Act ...
Looking back, from the beginning of the Ahtisaari talks, and the events that brought us to the present situation this plan B was always the plan A. What "relevant authorities" wanted was a compromise or an agreement around the "will of the people". Furthermore, "the will of the people" was compromised even further when Kosovo side agreed to the EU supervision (they basically replaced Yugoslav sovereignty with EU supervision). So there is nothing new in this article, this was the only plan all along, from the first day the NATO campaign started. Milosevic refused this for exactly these reasons and not the he was stupid or something else. Having said this, if Serbia had chosen a democratic way of addressing this issue, Rambouillet, NATO campaign, and the famous 1244 would have never happened. By opening the can of worms and letting the worms out, Serbia created a mess that it could not handle, this brought the big powers in and here we are today.
What is amazing though, is the Russia's position in all this. They went along with this all the way until they managed to find suitable people in charge of Serbia (I would not be surprised if they worked fervently to get these people in charge, these remnants of Milosevic era) who would take the lead into stirring up things for the West (EU and US) and hampering their own democratic developments. This way Russia plays this game through its proxy, Serbia, who in the end is going to bear all the weight of the looming decision in the final settlement of the Kosovo issue. For the big powers life goes on despite Kosovo issue. On the other hand Serbia, instead of capitalizing on this opportunity and extending a hand of cooperation to Kosovo, become the first to recognize Kosovo's independence, improve the shattered image that Serbia has around the world, tap into the economic resources of EU as well as secure economical benefits within Kosovo itself, and move forward with economic development, overall turn the page for good for its people, Serbia chooses to be the Russia's proxy and do its dirty politics. The price for this will be Serbia's and its people alone to pay.
You see, Serbia can chose not to accept, so as some of you continuously claim that some day you can reclaim Kosovo again, since the powers of world will shift; but as things are the end of the world will happen long before this shift of powers takes place and Kosovo's independence is inevitable.
I am not surprised. I think we will see an independent Kosovo in a couple of months.
There is as far as I am concern no other alternative. I believe the Serbian side is offering concessions to Kosovo in exchange for Independence but it is highly unlikely that Kosovo will ever accept having even the slightest legal connections to Serbia. We should not forget that it was a Serbian State sponsored attempt to ethnically clean Kosovo and now we are dealing with a Serbian State sponsored “offer of substantial autonomy”. Anyone considering the substantial autonomy should realistically view the current situation in Kosovo. Kosovo has substantial autonomy. Kosovo has control over its borders; it is governed by, in reports assessed as “a democratically elected assembly” and has many other structures that define a sovereign state.
What should be offered is Substantial Independence. But the Kosovars have chosen to make concessions to this and are willing to accept “supervised independence”. A big step if you ask me. If we view the Ahtisaari Plan carefully we will see that the majority of the plan is concentrated on forming a highly decentralized independent Kosovo where the Serbs are given clearly more than their percentage could legitimize. The Serbian counterpart should enter new negotiations with the aim of sustaining the rights given to the Serb minority in Kosovo and if possible enforce them even more.
Being from Sweden I have even, though Burma has taken a lot of attention, lately been reading articles and comments from leading politicians and experts on the inevitability of resolving the Status of Kosovo without any delay and with a result that respects the democratic will of the people that will be most touched with the decision. There is also clearly no need for the Security Council to approve a resolution since it has shown to have clear flaws and an inability to act quickly enough.
It will therefore be with great interest that I follow the situation in Kosovo and the actions taken by the European Union. It is highly interesting to see if all our tax payers’ money has been well spent and if the EU is capable of steering Kosovo towards its final destination, Independence.
I really ask myself what this wishful thinking is all about!
there is no such thing like a solution based on international law WITHOUT a resolution of the UNSC! if it was that easy, they wouldn´t have made such a big thing of it in prior.
so, how I interprete this socalled "news-article" by B92: if I do not have anything to publish, I publish anything.
and of course, all those emotionally engaged Albanian posters will once again jump around and boast how they have won, and how independence is a done deal...
I say, let´s see what future brings...but, ... better don´t buy the celbration-cake yet... you could waste your money!
James its true. It is for the will of the people. ALL people of Serbia. Since it reaffirms our sovereignty over Kosovo. Referendum was held and Kosovo remains with Serbia.
Kate
Resolution 1244 is very specific in that it protects Serbia's sovereignty. The text can't be changed to alter the basis of the resolution, any more than a constitution can be changed outside of democratic process."
With all due respect Kate but last time I checked 1244 resolution states Yugoslavia's sovereignty.
Yugoslavia is dead thus 1224 is invalid. Res 1244 does not apply anymore the moment that Serbia & Montenegro union was created. That union is dead as well and both countries went their own way.
Now we have a new independent country called Serbia claiming to be the sole heir to the sovereignty of ex Yugoslavia therefore want 1244 to be applied.
It's nice diplomatic move nonetheless but what if Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro and other republics claim the same and want to be the sole heir to ex Yugoslavia sovereignty? I am sure Serbia wouldn't like that move either. Thus, in this case, Kosova, EU & USA finds Serbia's claim as unacceptable and invalid. So after 10 of Dec this will be a valid claim and within international law for Eu & USA to recognize Kosova's Independence.
Thanks for the link but I don't see any difference of what I said and the paragraph on ur link.
The Socialist “Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was an original Member of the United Nations, the Charter having been signed on its behalf on 26 June 1945 and ratified 19 October 1945, until its dissolution following the establishment and subsequent admission as new Members of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Croatia, the Republic of Slovenia, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia"
If u read carefully it states quite clear that Yugoslavia was a member of UN from 1945 until its dissolution following... admission as new members etc. In another words Yugoslavia was dead the moment that other republics claimed their own membership, as you stated urself.
See also the dates of when Serbia was admitted, 1 Nov 2000 which is quite different with Yugoslavia 1945.Anyway its waste of time trying to explain this to you now.
Mark my word, Eu & USA will use exactly this point when they will recognize Kosova's Independence
As per ur question
"And if resolution 1244 is not valid anymore, then why isn't Kosovo independent already?"
(Rokka, 28. September 2007 00:09)
Well there are alot of reasons why Kosova is not independent yet but I will try to write a few.
1. It would've looked quite bad for International bodies who saved almost 2 million Albanians from masacres, rapes and starvation from Serbian Authority, to recognise them there and then and could not justify that move to their voters. They didn't want to look like someone breaking other countries so openly.
2. Wars on Iraq, Afghanistan and on terrorist made more headlines than Kosova hence the delay.
3. Status quo means more earnings for some UN Administrator.
4. In any state which is in transition u have crime and money laundering, again in the interest of those who administer that state, hence the prolonging of the final status.
Finally, the last 2 years of constant negotiations, conferences, meetings etc done by UN(Ahtisaari ) gave no results by either side,hence now we have the Ahtisaari's proposal-plan.
Since even this proposal was not accepted, the international bodies gave Serbia another chance to come up with another of their plan. Unfortunately Serbia gave mixed msg and International bodies were fed up and chose the 10 of dec 2007 as a final date.
Now all I say to you and everyone, just be patient and soon we will have an outcome.
A common sense says it will be Independent whereas Kate, Cvele, Princip and Co say never Independent, just some autonomy. So I say lets wait and see.
Hope this answered ur question which I am sure you already knew but its hard to accept it.
Ahhh, the good old Texas sharpshooter approach. If you can't win by being more accurate than your opponent (complying with 1244), hit a blank wall and draw a target around the hole. Bullseye!
Not that international law has ever been anything else anyway. The strongest country uses force to get what it wants and then makes up rules, morals and international principles a posteriori, justifying whatever actions have already been taken.
Link for you Flamur:http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/org1469.doc.htm#_edn12
Why is it that always when talk in here turns in to resolution 1244, albanians and other "independent Kosova" people are quick to state that Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore, and that's why resolution 1244 is null? The fact is(like it or not) that Serbia is the successor of Yugoslavia in UN, and there for inherited UN membership. Saying that Slovenia and Croatia and Bosnia have same right to yugoslavias membership in UN is here nor there, since they applied and received their own brand new membership. And Serbia inherited the old Yu membership. And if resolution 1244 is not valid anymore, then why isn't Kosovo independent already?
And what if a region wants to break away from a country but that area is divided over several areas (divide and conquer). Do they say: oh, we are not even a provice, forget.
The reality is: the Kosovars are looking for reasons.
Instead of interpreting the facts and then making your conclusions.
Sorry, EA and others, but if Kosovo was a republic things would be differnt.
Hey, if my dad was king of Holland things would be differnt for me. That's life!
Don't get me wrong: SERBIA NEEDS A GIVE KOSOVO A HUGE AMOUNT OF INDEPENDENT. UN TROOPS CAN STAY THERE. WESTERN MONEY IS NEEDED!
I say yes to all. But not to independence. Is that really so important? Get a life, and party on! We love you!
"With all due respect Kate but last time I checked 1244 resolution states Yugoslavia's sovereignty.
Yugoslavia is dead thus 1224 is invalid. Res 1244 does not apply anymore the moment that Serbia & Montenegro union was created. That union is dead as well and both countries went their own way.
Now we have a new independent country called Serbia claiming to be the sole heir to the sovereignty of ex Yugoslavia therefore want 1244 to be applied.
It's nice diplomatic move nonetheless but what if Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro and other republics claim the same and want to be the sole heir to ex Yugoslavia sovereignty? I am sure Serbia wouldn't like that move either. Thus, in this case, Kosova, EU & USA finds Serbia's claim as unacceptable and invalid. So after 10 of Dec this will be a valid claim and within international law for Eu & USA to recognize Kosova's Independence.
(Flamur,London, 27. September 2007 21:55)"
Flamur,
You are utterly confused.
The Yugoslavia stated in 1244 does not refer to the Yugoslavia of 1991 (with 6 republics). It refers to 1999's Yugoslavia (comprising Serbia and Montenegro). When Montenegro became independent, Serbia was recognized by the UN as the successor state to 1999's Yugoslavia which 1244 applies.
For someone who is not a Serb you're often "more catholic than the pope." :-) It's an Albanian saying ...
I'm kind of curious why that is and what nationality you are.
With regard to this article and others, I'll have to agree with Jovan here. It's too early to "declare victory" by either side. One thing is for certain though. These "direct" talks are a farce because for good or ill, the status of Kosovo will be determined by today's powers. It's 1913 all over again... even though the outcome may well be more favorable for the Albos this time around.
It seems like both sides have reduced themselves one more time to puppets on strings and I find that disturbing.
The Serbs probably have no love for Ramush Haradinaj, but I wonder whether a deal might have been reached by now had he been involved in the negotiations. He seems to have a reputation as a deal-maker kind of guy.
Who cares about Kosovo independence. Kosovo is small and full of drugsmuglers. The world have greater issues to take into concideration like the environment.
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