"Serbia ready for major concessions"

This is just an attempt by serbian side to look like its trying to compomise.

Albanians are saying the same thing "we are willing to make major concessions and compromises, but we will not compomise on independence".

Basically, both sides have the same stance.

What are these concessions? I would like to know.

All Serbian "concessions" together are LESS than what we have now. This is ridiculous. As somebody wrote here yesterday, we were strongly for independence even in the time when there were tens of thousands of Serbian police and army in Kosovo, even when they were killing us and terrorising us. Why would we accept any "concessions" now, after we were killed, cleansed and then liberated. The time of concessions was 1988. Now you can only give concessions to Vojvodina and Sandzak.

Serbs are offering too much....If the albanians wont take this, then we should take some things away from original offer. Kosovo will never get independence so they should take this deal now while its a good one.

Nice try Vuk! But, no cigar and no raki. You MUST agree to Independence, nothing short of it. Period!!!

What amazing comments! Why don't we just say that Serbia can keep everything in Belgrade and up to Vojvodina. The rest could be Albanian!

The facts are that Albania is a separate nation, and Kosovo remains a province of Serbia with an ethnic majority of Albanians. In any other situation it would be accepted that it is fair and forward-thinking for Serbia to accept the powers of a regional government.

Serbia has made great concessions by offering such a high level of self governance, and yet judging by the comments here, if anyone holds out a hand of reconcilliation it will be bitten off.

The US is not in control of this situation, although it would be good if some worthy heads of state in the US could get control of the current administration.

There is too much at stake to just trounce international law and the respect of boundaries.

Kosova has to be a state and that's all. But what about Vojvodina? Will come time when Vojvodina will become state too.

one thing is for sure, that unless we seperate in total, meaning two equal states, with mutual legal respect...things will continue boiling ;-(
... but again Vuk is doing what the troika wanted "creativity" ... the trakta of Kosovo's delegation was highly creative too ... but these are just my opinions so ...

Perhaps we could accept confederation if Sanxhak will be part of kosova and toplica will be part of Kosova and east of Serbia will be part of Kosova. Basically if you turn back our land which was occupied by serbs 100 years ago. And if vojvodina would be state to.

I think the Serbs are doing the right thing but i hope it's not late. I just want peace

"What are these concessions? I would like to know.
(Victor, 27. September 2007 13:26) "

I will tell you victor,

Those consessions are something which croatia never offered Serbs in Srpska Krajiina. On top of that they were ALL ethnically and brutally clensed! Did croatia conpensate them for all of their lost property? No! They were just focused on creating a enthnically pure croatia.

"if anyone holds out a hand of reconcilliation it will be bitten off. " (Kate)

Holding out the hand of reconcilliation, would be if Serbia would admit the crimes that happened in Kosovo, accept responsibility and accept reality that Kosovo is lost.

Offer of autonomy is not holding out the hand of reconcilliation, its an insult to albanians and to common sense.

When will the Albanians make a step towards Serbia? Give up on something?

Like Victor, I too would like to see these concessions laid out in detail. Let's not be cryptic anymore: the clock is ticking, the Albanians are itching, and the Europeans are sweating. Show me how a near virtual independent Kosovo within the national framework of Serbia shows any signs of Serbian sovereignty over the area.

Second, we don't need to include other bits of territory in Serbia like some here have suggested. Sandzak/Raska has little to no bearing on current conditions in Kosovo. If we're trying to rectify errors that were made over 100 years ago, we also need to throw in Bosnia for Serbia, reattach Montenegro for Serbia, give Macedonia to the Bulgarians, and hell, while we're at it, give Constantinople and Smyrna back to the Greeks :) (oops, almost forget turning "eastern Turkey" back into "western Armenia too!)
No, it's time Serbia realizes if they want to retain Kosovo, they need to come up with something that puts the Ahtisaari Proposal to shame. Right now, that's the only thing on the table, and the only thing Washington is willing to support. If Serbia can convince the international community it is really, and I mean REALLY serious, these major concessions will have to actually come at a price for Belgrade, and a substantial gain for Pristina. In the end, it may even be better for Belgrade to just cut the Albnanian parts out entirely.

Kosovo was never albanian, and was never occupied, all civilized world knows that Serbia liberated it´s territory from the ottoman empire...

it seems like some Albanisn still don´t know...

KS,

Kosovo is only a province of Serbia. You know that!
Just like South Tirol is just a province of Italy.

You talk like you are a seperate entity. You are not.

Serbia is offering their citizens in Kosovo a lot.
Again: the Kurds have nothing!

Kosovo is like a selfih child. Sorry, but we don';t need children like that in the EU!
Get a life, grow up! And then join EU as part of Serbia!

Serbs are offering a lot more then a handshake. Without staying with us you will always be a puppet state of whomever occupies you. This way you remain in Serbia and you improve your lives. Also with this all our ties would improve with albania and it would have a chance to prosper. So that when you visit your family you have things like electricity. Oh! And security.

Both solutions will be very unsatisfying to either Serbia or Kosovo and will thus lead to years of trouble between the two entities. Therefore I think partitioning is the best option. It might sound as 'not done' but it would be very sad if partitioning is chosen anyway after another period(s) of strong violations. As the population of Kosovo Albanians is strongly increasing, keeping all of Kosovo within Serbia, the situation will only become worse for the long term...

On the other hand, Kosovar Albanians should realize nowadays Serbia cannot be compared with the country it was during SFRJ and Milosevic times. The new Serbian government is willing to create a situation in wich Serbs and Kosovar Albanians are (treated as) equal.

Vuk, you cannot turn back the wheel of history. Kosovo/a is already "de facto" independent. It already controls its own borders. You are no in position to make any concessions. You better start negotiations for partition now or you will be left with nothing.

To Kate: "if anyone holds out a hand of reconcilliation it will be bitten off. "

You know Kate, the way albanians see it is that Serbia is offering the hand of "reconciliation" and from behind its back is hiding the knife. K-Albanians will not shake that hand unless they are sure that there is no threat hiding behind it.

Ratko,
Please find a quote from Victor regarding the Serbs as “simply a minority” in Croatia.

“Exaactly, and I do not understand why the Serbs on this board believe that the Serbs should have been recognized In Croatia as a nation: they were simply a minority. (Victor, 20 January 2007, 15:08)”

One should conclude from his quote that all those individuals who are “simply a minority” living within the boundaries of a sovereign country should not be recognized as a separate nation.

Certainly, if this standard holds true for Croatia, then it holds true for Serbia.

Olf,

so, you are some kind of undercover-historian ...having access to knowledge other historians didn´t have in the last 90 years, right?

and to nikshala:
"And I can assure that the majority of the population of Kosovo in the beginning of 20th cenutry did NOT feel liberated when serbs forces came, and did NOT want to be liberated by serbs.
(nikshala, 27. September 2007 18:21)"

my dear nikshala.... Albanians were liberated too, although they had arranged themselves with the occupiers, ...like you did with the Ottomans, like you did with the Germans, like you are always willing to arrange yourself with foreign powers if it is only to harm the Serbs.

What a comment from Kate, "province of Serbia with an ethnic majority of Albanians" or Serbian place living by Albanians.
We are majority as you stress and Serbs (appart of Serb minority of Kosovo) has nothing to do with us. we dcan be only neigbour states.

I must say that this is not a bad start. In fact, what he said can be translated in so many ways. In his comments you can even read the Independence of Kosova too but, also you can comment it differently. It all matter how you see it ad which side you support.
Mike has mentioned Ahtisaari plan as a very good solution for Serbs in Kosova, and it is right to say so since some forgot that Serbs in Kosova are the ones that will be living there. Ahtisaari plan offer Serb minority a lot but I does not offer anything to Belgrade politicians, Princip and Kate. I should have not been rejected but accepted.
Princip and Kate are naming the Kosova inhabitants as Serbian – Albanians. I think that this is a improper term since K-Albanians do not accept Serbia for their country. Princip can call himself as he wants but cannot call someone something that they don’t accept or belong to.

Jovan, your knowledge of history is great. Can you please tell me where can I find a map of 1900 - 1988 with Kosova as a part of Serbia. I also would like to inform you Jovan that the ottoman empire archive is about to be available to all the countries. Once I get the material I will post it in here just to wake you up.

Guys, I know that most of you don’t live in Serbia and any decision will not effect you. Let us help Serbian and Albanian people live in peace with constructive ideas. Let us leave aside Milosevic ideas( thankfully only ideas) and start working on the future of these people.

Jovan

Without going back in history, which is pointless anyway, I will make one comment.

You cannot 'liberate' the LAND, you can only liberate PEOPLE. The land does not care who lives on it! (sounds like a riddicuolus statement anyway)

And I can assure that the majority of the population of Kosovo in the beginning of 20th cenutry did NOT feel liberated when serbs forces came, and did NOT want to be liberated by serbs.

Major consensions means Independence. Good thing the Serbian leadership understood its wrongs. Good step in the right direction.

If any contry has no right to gurd its own borders, where does that particular country stand?
Way to go Mr. FM, you don't have a country to speak about it.

"very, very wide self-governance" is what kosovars had with their 1974 constitution. and what happened??? will serbia reserve the right to do what did 1989-1999, and any problems arising after kosovans accept serbia's proposal will be considered as internal serbian problems. believe it or not, kosovars will agree to the 1244 status quo for another 1000 years rather than accepting the "very, very wide self-governance".

“Our platform is to do with very, very wide self-governance for the province"

Even a five year old kid, would figure out that, his statement is equal to Independens Kosova...

Yes, let's compromise. How about we form a federation as Beni suggested. The Albanians will give up on independence in return for a republic that includes the Presevo valley, the sandjak and the Morava valley. Also,a third republic, republic of Vojvodina, with Hungarian as the official language will be formed. Each republic will be inviolabvle and will have the right to cede as well as a veto right over all internal and external federal decisions. Serbia must abandon all "ethnic" symbols such as the double headed white eagle, and the Orthodox church must be marginalized. The federation will also e prohibited from having a standing army. That I think would be acceptable and a "compromise." Otherwise, we Kosovars, will stick with our superpower and declare independence on Dec. 10th.

Yeah right, and around 30% of Serbs voted for Sheshels party.

*Yes, let's compromise. How about we form a federation as Beni suggested. The Albanians will give up on independence in return for a republic that includes the Presevo valley, the sandjak and the Morava valley. Also,a third republic, republic of Vojvodina, with Hungarian as the official language will be formed. Each republic will be inviolabvle and will have the right to cede as well as a veto right over all internal and external federal decisions. Serbia must abandon all "ethnic" symbols such as the double headed white eagle, and the Orthodox church must be marginalized. The federation will also e prohibited from having a standing army. That I think would be acceptable and a "compromise."*

Some good ideas there John. Like I said before, if Serbia really wants to keep Kosovo-Methojia it will have to incorporate 2 million + ethnic Albanians into mainstream Serbian society. A federation I think will probably be what will be on the table at the end. Not only is a change of flag needed but also a change in political and economic makeup. A 'Yugoslav' Federation may be resurrected. However regarding the size of the new Kosovo entity, by all means I think the Presevo Albanians should be included in it too. However I'm not so sure if the Sandzhak Muslims would like to be included in the Kosovo entity as they have nothing in common with K-Albanians. Vojvodina on the other hand now has an ethnic Serb majority,despite it still being multiethnic. likewise the Sandzhak has a large Serb population. I have been to Serbia many times and its truly remarkable to see and witness so many ethnic groups live in harmony, Belgrade especially which is why I love the place. It is also great and very encouraging to hear some of the K-Albanians now talking about compromise and throwing down the gauntlet to their Serb compatriots here. John, great post and i'm sure that what you have mentioned will form the basis for such a compromise and respecting Serbia's territorial integrity. Zivjela Jugoslavija.

Kosova has to be a state and that's all. But what about Vojvodina? Will come time when Vojvodina will become state too.

Perhaps we could accept confederation if Sanxhak will be part of kosova and toplica will be part of Kosova and east of Serbia will be part of Kosova. Basically if you turn back our land which was occupied by serbs 100 years ago. And if vojvodina would be state to.

All Serbian "concessions" together are LESS than what we have now. This is ridiculous. As somebody wrote here yesterday, we were strongly for independence even in the time when there were tens of thousands of Serbian police and army in Kosovo, even when they were killing us and terrorising us. Why would we accept any "concessions" now, after we were killed, cleansed and then liberated. The time of concessions was 1988. Now you can only give concessions to Vojvodina and Sandzak.

What amazing comments! Why don't we just say that Serbia can keep everything in Belgrade and up to Vojvodina. The rest could be Albanian!

The facts are that Albania is a separate nation, and Kosovo remains a province of Serbia with an ethnic majority of Albanians. In any other situation it would be accepted that it is fair and forward-thinking for Serbia to accept the powers of a regional government.

Serbia has made great concessions by offering such a high level of self governance, and yet judging by the comments here, if anyone holds out a hand of reconcilliation it will be bitten off.

The US is not in control of this situation, although it would be good if some worthy heads of state in the US could get control of the current administration.

There is too much at stake to just trounce international law and the respect of boundaries.

This is just an attempt by serbian side to look like its trying to compomise.

Albanians are saying the same thing "we are willing to make major concessions and compromises, but we will not compomise on independence".

Basically, both sides have the same stance.

Serbs are offering too much....If the albanians wont take this, then we should take some things away from original offer. Kosovo will never get independence so they should take this deal now while its a good one.

one thing is for sure, that unless we seperate in total, meaning two equal states, with mutual legal respect...things will continue boiling ;-(
... but again Vuk is doing what the troika wanted "creativity" ... the trakta of Kosovo's delegation was highly creative too ... but these are just my opinions so ...

Nice try Vuk! But, no cigar and no raki. You MUST agree to Independence, nothing short of it. Period!!!

Vuk, you cannot turn back the wheel of history. Kosovo/a is already "de facto" independent. It already controls its own borders. You are no in position to make any concessions. You better start negotiations for partition now or you will be left with nothing.

"if anyone holds out a hand of reconcilliation it will be bitten off. " (Kate)

Holding out the hand of reconcilliation, would be if Serbia would admit the crimes that happened in Kosovo, accept responsibility and accept reality that Kosovo is lost.

Offer of autonomy is not holding out the hand of reconcilliation, its an insult to albanians and to common sense.

"What are these concessions? I would like to know.
(Victor, 27. September 2007 13:26) "

I will tell you victor,

Those consessions are something which croatia never offered Serbs in Srpska Krajiina. On top of that they were ALL ethnically and brutally clensed! Did croatia conpensate them for all of their lost property? No! They were just focused on creating a enthnically pure croatia.

What a comment from Kate, "province of Serbia with an ethnic majority of Albanians" or Serbian place living by Albanians.
We are majority as you stress and Serbs (appart of Serb minority of Kosovo) has nothing to do with us. we dcan be only neigbour states.

Kosovo was never albanian, and was never occupied, all civilized world knows that Serbia liberated it´s territory from the ottoman empire...

it seems like some Albanisn still don´t know...

I must say that this is not a bad start. In fact, what he said can be translated in so many ways. In his comments you can even read the Independence of Kosova too but, also you can comment it differently. It all matter how you see it ad which side you support.
Mike has mentioned Ahtisaari plan as a very good solution for Serbs in Kosova, and it is right to say so since some forgot that Serbs in Kosova are the ones that will be living there. Ahtisaari plan offer Serb minority a lot but I does not offer anything to Belgrade politicians, Princip and Kate. I should have not been rejected but accepted.
Princip and Kate are naming the Kosova inhabitants as Serbian – Albanians. I think that this is a improper term since K-Albanians do not accept Serbia for their country. Princip can call himself as he wants but cannot call someone something that they don’t accept or belong to.

Jovan, your knowledge of history is great. Can you please tell me where can I find a map of 1900 - 1988 with Kosova as a part of Serbia. I also would like to inform you Jovan that the ottoman empire archive is about to be available to all the countries. Once I get the material I will post it in here just to wake you up.

Guys, I know that most of you don’t live in Serbia and any decision will not effect you. Let us help Serbian and Albanian people live in peace with constructive ideas. Let us leave aside Milosevic ideas( thankfully only ideas) and start working on the future of these people.

Jovan

Without going back in history, which is pointless anyway, I will make one comment.

You cannot 'liberate' the LAND, you can only liberate PEOPLE. The land does not care who lives on it! (sounds like a riddicuolus statement anyway)

And I can assure that the majority of the population of Kosovo in the beginning of 20th cenutry did NOT feel liberated when serbs forces came, and did NOT want to be liberated by serbs.

Major consensions means Independence. Good thing the Serbian leadership understood its wrongs. Good step in the right direction.

What are these concessions? I would like to know.

I think the Serbs are doing the right thing but i hope it's not late. I just want peace

To Kate: "if anyone holds out a hand of reconcilliation it will be bitten off. "

You know Kate, the way albanians see it is that Serbia is offering the hand of "reconciliation" and from behind its back is hiding the knife. K-Albanians will not shake that hand unless they are sure that there is no threat hiding behind it.

When will the Albanians make a step towards Serbia? Give up on something?

KS,

Kosovo is only a province of Serbia. You know that!
Just like South Tirol is just a province of Italy.

You talk like you are a seperate entity. You are not.

Serbia is offering their citizens in Kosovo a lot.
Again: the Kurds have nothing!

Kosovo is like a selfih child. Sorry, but we don';t need children like that in the EU!
Get a life, grow up! And then join EU as part of Serbia!

“Our platform is to do with very, very wide self-governance for the province"

Even a five year old kid, would figure out that, his statement is equal to Independens Kosova...

"very, very wide self-governance" is what kosovars had with their 1974 constitution. and what happened??? will serbia reserve the right to do what did 1989-1999, and any problems arising after kosovans accept serbia's proposal will be considered as internal serbian problems. believe it or not, kosovars will agree to the 1244 status quo for another 1000 years rather than accepting the "very, very wide self-governance".

Like Victor, I too would like to see these concessions laid out in detail. Let's not be cryptic anymore: the clock is ticking, the Albanians are itching, and the Europeans are sweating. Show me how a near virtual independent Kosovo within the national framework of Serbia shows any signs of Serbian sovereignty over the area.

Second, we don't need to include other bits of territory in Serbia like some here have suggested. Sandzak/Raska has little to no bearing on current conditions in Kosovo. If we're trying to rectify errors that were made over 100 years ago, we also need to throw in Bosnia for Serbia, reattach Montenegro for Serbia, give Macedonia to the Bulgarians, and hell, while we're at it, give Constantinople and Smyrna back to the Greeks :) (oops, almost forget turning "eastern Turkey" back into "western Armenia too!)
No, it's time Serbia realizes if they want to retain Kosovo, they need to come up with something that puts the Ahtisaari Proposal to shame. Right now, that's the only thing on the table, and the only thing Washington is willing to support. If Serbia can convince the international community it is really, and I mean REALLY serious, these major concessions will have to actually come at a price for Belgrade, and a substantial gain for Pristina. In the end, it may even be better for Belgrade to just cut the Albnanian parts out entirely.

Ratko,
Please find a quote from Victor regarding the Serbs as “simply a minority” in Croatia.

“Exaactly, and I do not understand why the Serbs on this board believe that the Serbs should have been recognized In Croatia as a nation: they were simply a minority. (Victor, 20 January 2007, 15:08)”

One should conclude from his quote that all those individuals who are “simply a minority” living within the boundaries of a sovereign country should not be recognized as a separate nation.

Certainly, if this standard holds true for Croatia, then it holds true for Serbia.

Serbs are offering a lot more then a handshake. Without staying with us you will always be a puppet state of whomever occupies you. This way you remain in Serbia and you improve your lives. Also with this all our ties would improve with albania and it would have a chance to prosper. So that when you visit your family you have things like electricity. Oh! And security.

If any contry has no right to gurd its own borders, where does that particular country stand?
Way to go Mr. FM, you don't have a country to speak about it.

Olf,

so, you are some kind of undercover-historian ...having access to knowledge other historians didn´t have in the last 90 years, right?

and to nikshala:
"And I can assure that the majority of the population of Kosovo in the beginning of 20th cenutry did NOT feel liberated when serbs forces came, and did NOT want to be liberated by serbs.
(nikshala, 27. September 2007 18:21)"

my dear nikshala.... Albanians were liberated too, although they had arranged themselves with the occupiers, ...like you did with the Ottomans, like you did with the Germans, like you are always willing to arrange yourself with foreign powers if it is only to harm the Serbs.

Both solutions will be very unsatisfying to either Serbia or Kosovo and will thus lead to years of trouble between the two entities. Therefore I think partitioning is the best option. It might sound as 'not done' but it would be very sad if partitioning is chosen anyway after another period(s) of strong violations. As the population of Kosovo Albanians is strongly increasing, keeping all of Kosovo within Serbia, the situation will only become worse for the long term...

On the other hand, Kosovar Albanians should realize nowadays Serbia cannot be compared with the country it was during SFRJ and Milosevic times. The new Serbian government is willing to create a situation in wich Serbs and Kosovar Albanians are (treated as) equal.

Yes, let's compromise. How about we form a federation as Beni suggested. The Albanians will give up on independence in return for a republic that includes the Presevo valley, the sandjak and the Morava valley. Also,a third republic, republic of Vojvodina, with Hungarian as the official language will be formed. Each republic will be inviolabvle and will have the right to cede as well as a veto right over all internal and external federal decisions. Serbia must abandon all "ethnic" symbols such as the double headed white eagle, and the Orthodox church must be marginalized. The federation will also e prohibited from having a standing army. That I think would be acceptable and a "compromise." Otherwise, we Kosovars, will stick with our superpower and declare independence on Dec. 10th.

Yeah right, and around 30% of Serbs voted for Sheshels party.

*Yes, let's compromise. How about we form a federation as Beni suggested. The Albanians will give up on independence in return for a republic that includes the Presevo valley, the sandjak and the Morava valley. Also,a third republic, republic of Vojvodina, with Hungarian as the official language will be formed. Each republic will be inviolabvle and will have the right to cede as well as a veto right over all internal and external federal decisions. Serbia must abandon all "ethnic" symbols such as the double headed white eagle, and the Orthodox church must be marginalized. The federation will also e prohibited from having a standing army. That I think would be acceptable and a "compromise."*

Some good ideas there John. Like I said before, if Serbia really wants to keep Kosovo-Methojia it will have to incorporate 2 million + ethnic Albanians into mainstream Serbian society. A federation I think will probably be what will be on the table at the end. Not only is a change of flag needed but also a change in political and economic makeup. A 'Yugoslav' Federation may be resurrected. However regarding the size of the new Kosovo entity, by all means I think the Presevo Albanians should be included in it too. However I'm not so sure if the Sandzhak Muslims would like to be included in the Kosovo entity as they have nothing in common with K-Albanians. Vojvodina on the other hand now has an ethnic Serb majority,despite it still being multiethnic. likewise the Sandzhak has a large Serb population. I have been to Serbia many times and its truly remarkable to see and witness so many ethnic groups live in harmony, Belgrade especially which is why I love the place. It is also great and very encouraging to hear some of the K-Albanians now talking about compromise and throwing down the gauntlet to their Serb compatriots here. John, great post and i'm sure that what you have mentioned will form the basis for such a compromise and respecting Serbia's territorial integrity. Zivjela Jugoslavija.