Independence calls impede process, says Lavrov

village-bey, what you are suggesting is in direct violation of UN Resolution 1244, the Serbian constitution, & the Helsinki Act. Therefore ILLEGAL under international law. Nice try though...

What the Russians are suggesting and going to enforce (one way or another) is perfectly legal and satisfies the NEEDS (not DREAMS) of both sides. Kosovo has never been an independent Albanian state. Just because 1.8 million Serbs died in the Holocausts of WW1 & 2, which tipped the population scales in your favor doesn't mean you get a chunk of Serbia. It doesn't work that way.

The Serb and the Russian have completely ignored the fact that a possible agreement and compromise could be reached within confines of the new Kosovar State.
It is quite hypocritical to dismiss this option and pretend that the other side is insular to compromise.
If people have a problem with the name Kosova lets change it to something more neutral. We all know that the symbols of the new sate are going to be neutral.

Mr Lavrov,
No compromise on Sovereignity of Kosova. It is as simple as that. Please stop misleading the public opinion with the word "compromise" and "further negotiation". The public has had enough of that kind of rhetoric.

Autonomy is the only legal thing the albanians can get unless the serbs agrees to give them more. International law is crystal clear on that matter.

Mr Lavrov is he talking about international law when there is not law in Russia.I must say he is good komunist but shame is not working anymore.
It is the time for Russia to realise that they can not hold Kosovo-Serbia talks forever.

Village-Bey: You are saying that a compromise will be made AFTER Kosovo is made independent? And you really believe that a new name and flag would be accepted? Only if it was linked in some way to Albania.

EA: I hate treading old ground, but the fact is that it is Kosovo that wants to get something from Serbia and not the other way round. People usually negotiate for what they want. I am talking about real ownership, not a claim to land on a 'moral' basis.

But of course Serbia has to compromise in this situation which is why they are offering such a high level of autonomy. I believe that the US is making a major error if they don't help to develop this idea.

it is so amusing to see this showdown of statements from US and from Russia. I think they have decided of the final outcome, but in the meantime they have to keep us interested in reading and commenting what they have to say, its almost like ooo I had a thought and I will make into a news statement...
In the meantime people here in Kosovo are living in poor conditions and deteriorating even more as every day goes by. power cuts water shortages, are a normal accepted thing now ... unemployment has hit the roof ... the gap between the poor and the ritch is growing immensely ... one thing is for sure people cant keep going on to wait forever, talk forever ... and what other outcome is there, does anyone really sees a light in the end of the tunnel.
My opinion is that it is time to seperate in a civilazed manner (war is not a solution) ... let the new generations have a proper life education and better future ... not like us who have gone through hell and have had to live our lifes today for tomorrow, because we couldnt make long term plans.......
for the Russians talks are good, they actually even said look at Israel and Palestine they have been "talking for 60 years" I mean that does it for me, I am not interested to hear what else they have to say.
And from what I hear the situation in Serbia is n ot great either. It is almost impossible to grasp the fact that even Romania and Bulgaria are in EU and Serbia is not. Do you ever think about that?!
As for the state of Serbs in Kosovo, no comment, I feel sorry because they are just like the soldiers in a game of chess ;-(

Bravo Mr. Lavrov. This guy is a real diplomat.

I agree. It is totally counterproductive to press for one outsome while saying that a mutual agreement is preferred. It is almost as though the US is deliberately sabotaging any hope of an agreement, let alone putting appropriate pressure on the Kosovo Albanian side to compromise.

Again Kate as many in the Serb or pro-Serb camp here, is in denial. We HAVE Kosova Kate. Not a single Serb policeman or soldier there at the moment. We make up more than 90% of the population there. The Serbs can talk about resolutions and old history but the fact is that we own Kosova. We have demography n our side as well as the US and most of the EU. At least the countries that matter in the EU. The most the Serbs can realistically ask for now is the Northern bit, but that would raise the question of Preseva. And given that we are gonna get independence anyway shortly, I think we shouldn't even think of giving that much to the Serbs either.

Mr. Lavrov is right when he says ” The Troika is putting together mutually acceptable guidelines for the process. It’s up to the sides to find a solution, there’s no other way” This would be perfect but, Kharchenko the other day said that the agreement between two sides is not likely to happen what means that other solutions should be sought.

Lavrov said that “"Everyone who cares about stability in the Balkans, respect for international law and preventing dangerous and harmful precedents are doing everything in their power to help the sides to find a mutually acceptable solution in a direct manner." I think that this part of his message is going to rock Belgrade and its failed politicians since this must be seen as preparation for the next message to Belgrade. This tells that if there is no mutual agreement than sides are to act according to their plans but Russia will not support and not interfere.

I would like to remind the readers in his site that respect of the international law in combination with the politics of Milosevic(supported by most of the Serb posters in here) brought civil war to Yugoslavia. Once the international laws started to suite the situation on the ground than those barrier’s were passed and peace came back. International laws are entering a new phase of changes and this is for the sake of the entire international community, especially European.

Remember Berlin convention was not respected by then Serbian government in order to occupy Kosova by terrorising the Albanian population.

Another good news is that Ottoman empire archive is opening soon to governments what means that documents from this archive with destroy the dream of the Serbian politicians for a Greater Serbia.

Serbian poster, times are changing. You must change to in order to exist, it is law of the nature that unfortunately we cannot change.

Olf: "respect of the international law in combination with the politics of Milosevic(supported by most of the Serb posters in here)"

Although your comment is not aimed at me (I am not Serbian) how do you know that most Serb posters here supported Milosevic? It is not up to you to make such assumptions.

No Mr. Lavrov the pocess you are talking about has been done and over long time a go. The signal is that the end of dragging on is coming to an end.

The federal model I suggest, and that village bey alluded to, may only be reached if it is made perfectly clear to Pristina that unilateral anything is off the table. Personally, I don't blame the Pristina officials for making the threats they are. The rationale I've seen in the news and in these comment sections is that Washington is on board no matter what, and if Washington recognizes a unilateral move, most of Europe will have no choice but to follow step. Under these conditions, why would Pristina want to "compromise"? It's essentially the equivalent of going up to a cashier and saying "you gave me $10 in change when you should have given me only $1."

If Pristina realizes they will have to sing for their supper, they'll be more amicable to compromise. I doubt they'll abandon the idea of an independent Kosovo, but they'll be willing to go accept far more stipulations than the Ahtisaari Plan calls for - then we might see the federated Kosovo model.

Agreement in devolved power, separate competences and even federal agreements like Mike has suggested, will not need much effort if the will for compromise does really exist.
Kosvar identity is a factual reality. It is my strong belief that sociologically the two main ethnicities in Kosova have much more in common between themselves than they have with the inhabitants of their respective mother states. This could be another supporting argument to have a separate entity.
The issues here are political and require political decision, but I cannot see a reason why both people could not leave in peace by non-interfering into each others affairs. All we need to do is to break the barriers of fear and insecurity.
To be frank I am not interested in the view of a couple of Europeans here that have only joined the debate to get a reaction that they wont get otherwise.

Mike,

"and if Washington recognizes a unilateral move, most of Europe will have no choice but to follow step. "

- thus far there has been little other then the EU will act in unity and that suggests that most of Europe will not follow. I think Condi hinted that they would like the EU to be in step but the reality is it is not and the closer we get to 10th Decemebr the further the EU will get from the US line. The last round of internal bickering within the EU over the issue of Serbia's province held in Portugal recently showed that the anti-independence voice was getting louder and those who supported illegal independece is dwindling rapidly.

Did anyone brief Lavrov in that this isn't Russia?

Once again, I don't care what he thinks, Putin, Putin Jr I/II/III, or any Serbian politician; the outcome is clear in-de-pen-dance.

BTW only in Serbia is freedom of speech a threat.

I agree with you Princip, but unfortunately the US government still is suffering from Holbrooke Syndrome: a case of feeling that only Washington, as the saviour of the free world (and as someone who only read Kaplan's Balkan Ghosts and Huntington's Clash of Civilizations to get an idea of the Balkans), can bring peace to a group of crazy people that are gripped with eternal hatreds.

Such nonsensical thinking has already alienated a would-be cooperative government in Belgrade to look at Washington with suspicion. However I do think (more like hope) that before the December 10 deadline comes, the US and the EU will present Serbia with such an agreeable package in exchange for Kosovo's sovereignty that they would be fools to turn it down. Gone are the days when we can strong arm a country like Serbia to "take it and deal with it". If a negotiated settlement to Kosovo is what everone says they want, the West, so keen to grant Kosovo its independence, better come up with an unbelievable set of incentives for Serbia. And no, the Ahtisaari Plan is not a compromise. Those stipulations are obligatory.

Serbia may indeed get 95% of what it wants, so long as the remaining 5% is Kosovo's self determination. Serbia would still come out the better winner in the end, so long as their leaders recognize that.

"Another good news is that Ottoman empire archive is opening soon to governments what means that documents from this archive with destroy the dream of the Serbian politicians for a Greater Serbia.

Serbian poster, times are changing. You must change to in order to exist, it is law of the nature that unfortunately we cannot change.
(Olf, 26. September 2007 11:15)"

can anybody explain to "Olf" there are no archives of the Ottoman empire that were not accessible...something like that simply doesn´t exist! so, instead of writing pure fiction you should rather take care of what you are writing here, my dear Olf!

furthermore, those philosopies about "law of the nature"...have you read that in some albanian yellow-press?

"Did anyone brief Lavrov in that this isn't Russia?

Once again, I don't care what he thinks, Putin, Putin Jr I/II/III, or any Serbian politician; the outcome is clear in-de-pen-dance.

BTW only in Serbia is freedom of speech a threat.
(KS, 26. September 2007 21:11)"

Of course Kosovo isn't Russia. But the point is that any decision on Kosovo in the UN needs Russia's approval. You may not care what he thinks, but I bet you Prisitna privately does, even if they don't admit so openly.

Lavrov was clearly taking a dig at Ms Rice for her yet again threat on unilateral recognition. This is not the first time the US made this threat (only to be rescinded or watered down a few days later by them) and it won't be the last. The important point however is that the US needs Russian approval for anything to pass muster in the UNSC.

"The most the Serbs can realistically ask for now is the Northern bit, but that would raise the question of Preseva. And given that we are gonna get independence anyway shortly, I think we shouldn't even think of giving that much to the Serbs either.
(teni, 26. September 2007 14:29) "

teni,

And how on earth are you going to get your independence? ..... unless you mean unilaterally outside the UN ..... that would instantly create a de facto partition with this northern bit declaring itself part of Serbia ... in which case realistically there is nothing much Pristina can do about it.

KS,

You make me laugh!
Please go to China and say: the only outcome is Tibetan independence!

You would be NOWHERE without intervention from us, the West! But instead of being thankful you want it all.
Sorry, we did NOT intervene to create a new state.

You had since 1999 to reintegrate in Serbia. To truth is: Kosovars were never interested in that.
Please had said so before 1999. Good chance the West never intervened then.

I FEEL BETRAEYED BY THE KOSOVARS.

And sorry, but at least in Holland more people feel this way.

I agree. It is totally counterproductive to press for one outsome while saying that a mutual agreement is preferred. It is almost as though the US is deliberately sabotaging any hope of an agreement, let alone putting appropriate pressure on the Kosovo Albanian side to compromise.

Mr Lavrov is he talking about international law when there is not law in Russia.I must say he is good komunist but shame is not working anymore.
It is the time for Russia to realise that they can not hold Kosovo-Serbia talks forever.

Village-Bey: You are saying that a compromise will be made AFTER Kosovo is made independent? And you really believe that a new name and flag would be accepted? Only if it was linked in some way to Albania.

EA: I hate treading old ground, but the fact is that it is Kosovo that wants to get something from Serbia and not the other way round. People usually negotiate for what they want. I am talking about real ownership, not a claim to land on a 'moral' basis.

But of course Serbia has to compromise in this situation which is why they are offering such a high level of autonomy. I believe that the US is making a major error if they don't help to develop this idea.

village-bey, what you are suggesting is in direct violation of UN Resolution 1244, the Serbian constitution, & the Helsinki Act. Therefore ILLEGAL under international law. Nice try though...

What the Russians are suggesting and going to enforce (one way or another) is perfectly legal and satisfies the NEEDS (not DREAMS) of both sides. Kosovo has never been an independent Albanian state. Just because 1.8 million Serbs died in the Holocausts of WW1 & 2, which tipped the population scales in your favor doesn't mean you get a chunk of Serbia. It doesn't work that way.

Autonomy is the only legal thing the albanians can get unless the serbs agrees to give them more. International law is crystal clear on that matter.

The Serb and the Russian have completely ignored the fact that a possible agreement and compromise could be reached within confines of the new Kosovar State.
It is quite hypocritical to dismiss this option and pretend that the other side is insular to compromise.
If people have a problem with the name Kosova lets change it to something more neutral. We all know that the symbols of the new sate are going to be neutral.

Mr Lavrov,
No compromise on Sovereignity of Kosova. It is as simple as that. Please stop misleading the public opinion with the word "compromise" and "further negotiation". The public has had enough of that kind of rhetoric.

Mr. Lavrov is right when he says ” The Troika is putting together mutually acceptable guidelines for the process. It’s up to the sides to find a solution, there’s no other way” This would be perfect but, Kharchenko the other day said that the agreement between two sides is not likely to happen what means that other solutions should be sought.

Lavrov said that “"Everyone who cares about stability in the Balkans, respect for international law and preventing dangerous and harmful precedents are doing everything in their power to help the sides to find a mutually acceptable solution in a direct manner." I think that this part of his message is going to rock Belgrade and its failed politicians since this must be seen as preparation for the next message to Belgrade. This tells that if there is no mutual agreement than sides are to act according to their plans but Russia will not support and not interfere.

I would like to remind the readers in his site that respect of the international law in combination with the politics of Milosevic(supported by most of the Serb posters in here) brought civil war to Yugoslavia. Once the international laws started to suite the situation on the ground than those barrier’s were passed and peace came back. International laws are entering a new phase of changes and this is for the sake of the entire international community, especially European.

Remember Berlin convention was not respected by then Serbian government in order to occupy Kosova by terrorising the Albanian population.

Another good news is that Ottoman empire archive is opening soon to governments what means that documents from this archive with destroy the dream of the Serbian politicians for a Greater Serbia.

Serbian poster, times are changing. You must change to in order to exist, it is law of the nature that unfortunately we cannot change.

Olf: "respect of the international law in combination with the politics of Milosevic(supported by most of the Serb posters in here)"

Although your comment is not aimed at me (I am not Serbian) how do you know that most Serb posters here supported Milosevic? It is not up to you to make such assumptions.

Again Kate as many in the Serb or pro-Serb camp here, is in denial. We HAVE Kosova Kate. Not a single Serb policeman or soldier there at the moment. We make up more than 90% of the population there. The Serbs can talk about resolutions and old history but the fact is that we own Kosova. We have demography n our side as well as the US and most of the EU. At least the countries that matter in the EU. The most the Serbs can realistically ask for now is the Northern bit, but that would raise the question of Preseva. And given that we are gonna get independence anyway shortly, I think we shouldn't even think of giving that much to the Serbs either.

Bravo Mr. Lavrov. This guy is a real diplomat.

The federal model I suggest, and that village bey alluded to, may only be reached if it is made perfectly clear to Pristina that unilateral anything is off the table. Personally, I don't blame the Pristina officials for making the threats they are. The rationale I've seen in the news and in these comment sections is that Washington is on board no matter what, and if Washington recognizes a unilateral move, most of Europe will have no choice but to follow step. Under these conditions, why would Pristina want to "compromise"? It's essentially the equivalent of going up to a cashier and saying "you gave me $10 in change when you should have given me only $1."

If Pristina realizes they will have to sing for their supper, they'll be more amicable to compromise. I doubt they'll abandon the idea of an independent Kosovo, but they'll be willing to go accept far more stipulations than the Ahtisaari Plan calls for - then we might see the federated Kosovo model.

Agreement in devolved power, separate competences and even federal agreements like Mike has suggested, will not need much effort if the will for compromise does really exist.
Kosvar identity is a factual reality. It is my strong belief that sociologically the two main ethnicities in Kosova have much more in common between themselves than they have with the inhabitants of their respective mother states. This could be another supporting argument to have a separate entity.
The issues here are political and require political decision, but I cannot see a reason why both people could not leave in peace by non-interfering into each others affairs. All we need to do is to break the barriers of fear and insecurity.
To be frank I am not interested in the view of a couple of Europeans here that have only joined the debate to get a reaction that they wont get otherwise.

No Mr. Lavrov the pocess you are talking about has been done and over long time a go. The signal is that the end of dragging on is coming to an end.

Mike,

"and if Washington recognizes a unilateral move, most of Europe will have no choice but to follow step. "

- thus far there has been little other then the EU will act in unity and that suggests that most of Europe will not follow. I think Condi hinted that they would like the EU to be in step but the reality is it is not and the closer we get to 10th Decemebr the further the EU will get from the US line. The last round of internal bickering within the EU over the issue of Serbia's province held in Portugal recently showed that the anti-independence voice was getting louder and those who supported illegal independece is dwindling rapidly.

I agree with you Princip, but unfortunately the US government still is suffering from Holbrooke Syndrome: a case of feeling that only Washington, as the saviour of the free world (and as someone who only read Kaplan's Balkan Ghosts and Huntington's Clash of Civilizations to get an idea of the Balkans), can bring peace to a group of crazy people that are gripped with eternal hatreds.

Such nonsensical thinking has already alienated a would-be cooperative government in Belgrade to look at Washington with suspicion. However I do think (more like hope) that before the December 10 deadline comes, the US and the EU will present Serbia with such an agreeable package in exchange for Kosovo's sovereignty that they would be fools to turn it down. Gone are the days when we can strong arm a country like Serbia to "take it and deal with it". If a negotiated settlement to Kosovo is what everone says they want, the West, so keen to grant Kosovo its independence, better come up with an unbelievable set of incentives for Serbia. And no, the Ahtisaari Plan is not a compromise. Those stipulations are obligatory.

Serbia may indeed get 95% of what it wants, so long as the remaining 5% is Kosovo's self determination. Serbia would still come out the better winner in the end, so long as their leaders recognize that.

"Another good news is that Ottoman empire archive is opening soon to governments what means that documents from this archive with destroy the dream of the Serbian politicians for a Greater Serbia.

Serbian poster, times are changing. You must change to in order to exist, it is law of the nature that unfortunately we cannot change.
(Olf, 26. September 2007 11:15)"

can anybody explain to "Olf" there are no archives of the Ottoman empire that were not accessible...something like that simply doesn´t exist! so, instead of writing pure fiction you should rather take care of what you are writing here, my dear Olf!

furthermore, those philosopies about "law of the nature"...have you read that in some albanian yellow-press?

KS,

You make me laugh!
Please go to China and say: the only outcome is Tibetan independence!

You would be NOWHERE without intervention from us, the West! But instead of being thankful you want it all.
Sorry, we did NOT intervene to create a new state.

You had since 1999 to reintegrate in Serbia. To truth is: Kosovars were never interested in that.
Please had said so before 1999. Good chance the West never intervened then.

I FEEL BETRAEYED BY THE KOSOVARS.

And sorry, but at least in Holland more people feel this way.

"Did anyone brief Lavrov in that this isn't Russia?

Once again, I don't care what he thinks, Putin, Putin Jr I/II/III, or any Serbian politician; the outcome is clear in-de-pen-dance.

BTW only in Serbia is freedom of speech a threat.
(KS, 26. September 2007 21:11)"

Of course Kosovo isn't Russia. But the point is that any decision on Kosovo in the UN needs Russia's approval. You may not care what he thinks, but I bet you Prisitna privately does, even if they don't admit so openly.

Lavrov was clearly taking a dig at Ms Rice for her yet again threat on unilateral recognition. This is not the first time the US made this threat (only to be rescinded or watered down a few days later by them) and it won't be the last. The important point however is that the US needs Russian approval for anything to pass muster in the UNSC.

it is so amusing to see this showdown of statements from US and from Russia. I think they have decided of the final outcome, but in the meantime they have to keep us interested in reading and commenting what they have to say, its almost like ooo I had a thought and I will make into a news statement...
In the meantime people here in Kosovo are living in poor conditions and deteriorating even more as every day goes by. power cuts water shortages, are a normal accepted thing now ... unemployment has hit the roof ... the gap between the poor and the ritch is growing immensely ... one thing is for sure people cant keep going on to wait forever, talk forever ... and what other outcome is there, does anyone really sees a light in the end of the tunnel.
My opinion is that it is time to seperate in a civilazed manner (war is not a solution) ... let the new generations have a proper life education and better future ... not like us who have gone through hell and have had to live our lifes today for tomorrow, because we couldnt make long term plans.......
for the Russians talks are good, they actually even said look at Israel and Palestine they have been "talking for 60 years" I mean that does it for me, I am not interested to hear what else they have to say.
And from what I hear the situation in Serbia is n ot great either. It is almost impossible to grasp the fact that even Romania and Bulgaria are in EU and Serbia is not. Do you ever think about that?!
As for the state of Serbs in Kosovo, no comment, I feel sorry because they are just like the soldiers in a game of chess ;-(

Did anyone brief Lavrov in that this isn't Russia?

Once again, I don't care what he thinks, Putin, Putin Jr I/II/III, or any Serbian politician; the outcome is clear in-de-pen-dance.

BTW only in Serbia is freedom of speech a threat.

"The most the Serbs can realistically ask for now is the Northern bit, but that would raise the question of Preseva. And given that we are gonna get independence anyway shortly, I think we shouldn't even think of giving that much to the Serbs either.
(teni, 26. September 2007 14:29) "

teni,

And how on earth are you going to get your independence? ..... unless you mean unilaterally outside the UN ..... that would instantly create a de facto partition with this northern bit declaring itself part of Serbia ... in which case realistically there is nothing much Pristina can do about it.