Canada recognizes Macedonia's name

How can Macedonians claim they have anything to do with Alexander the great or ancient Macedonia when they are Slavs, by race creed and language.
Alexander was 1000 years dead by the time modern day Macedonians had even arrived in Skopje.

Don't oversimplify the issue. It's not just about the name but the connotations to culture and territory. It would be as if Canada decided to rename Quebec the Province of New York and then claim that Alexander Hamilton and Franklin Delano Roosevelt were from the Province of New York and then they would put the Statue of Liberty on their flag. I don't think that the State of New York or the US would be too happy.

In this issue the Greeks are even crazier than the Serbs on Kosovo, to make such problems about a simple name....

Andy, do you think that today's Americans are all related to George Washington? No, but they can still lay a claim to his legacy because they are American, regardless if their name happens to be Gonzalez, O'Malley, or Obama. Your argument holds no water. The Greeks of today may not be blood relatives of Alexander the Great but they share his culture and language which was Hellenic. Like I said, there's more to it than just a name.

I think Greece has the right and is not wrong to protest the name just as any country should if it finds it offensive or conflicting. What if the US decided to rename their country the United States Ruler of the World and seek recognition of it at the UN or other world bodies. I think a number of countries would protest so don't say that protesting a name is stupid. There is more to it than just a name.

Thank you CANADA!!!

Macedonians' claim to stick to the constitutional name of their state is completely legitimate and the whole nations should recognize them as Republic of Macedonia, including UN and its specialized agencies, EU and NATO. I'm happy that the Albanian Government was the first to recognize Macedonia by its constitutional name. Bravo Canada!

Well done Canada!

Everybody in the Balkans knows Macedonia as Macedonia. Today's Modern Greeks need to stop pretending they are related to the ancient Greeks and start doing something positive to help the Balkans move forward. This is a non-issue and no one has the right to tell other people how they can call themselves.

In this issue the Greeks are even crazier than the Serbs on Kosovo, to make such problems about a simple name....
(robert, 20. September 2007 15:58)

Only thing crazier is Albanians still clinging to their belief that Kosovo will be independent. One stupid comment deserves another.

Andy, it is your information that is questionable. I suppose the Ancient Greeks died out and were replaced by these peoples that you list in whole. That is what you're saying and it makes no sense. Yes, there were migrations of Slavs into the Balkans in the 6th through 8th century AD but what you are saying is that at that time the Greeks living there already ceased to exist and were replaced by the Slavs who then magically learned to speak Greek out of thin air. I don't claim that there is some ethnically pure race (which is a misnomer) called the Greeks. But culturally, linguistically, and geographically there is a continuous linkage between the Greeks of today and those of 3000 years ago. These are undisputable facts. You need to stop perpetuating the adage that a lie told often enough becomes the truth.

I don't have enough knowledge on this subject to offer an informed opinion but...
Canada also just passed a law allowing veiled women to vote or whomever is under the burka. All they need is 2 pieces if ID. Can you imagine, if in protest, male voters turned out in huge numbers wearing burkas?

the country does need to develop its economy and greece can help with that, but looking at web forums from the nation there does also seem to be a desire among many there to extend its territory ; if you don't believe me take a look ( I just posted a sourced example, but the mods didn't let it through - don't have a clue why)

Canada recognised Fyrom as "Macedonia" is a an attack on fundemental principles and Greece has every right to object.

The name Macedonia is a Greek name and is associated with the Ancient Greek Kingdom of Macedonia (Macedon) birthplace of Alexander The Great, who was GREEK!!! Not slavic.

The Slavs came into the Balkans in the 6th century AD, that means 1000 years after Alexander, so how can the state of Skopje claim a Greek name and history as their own? That is THEFT AND FRAUD.

These slavs are Bulgarians and Speak a western Bulgarian dialect, which Bulgaria admits to, but Skopje denies. The name Macedonia was impossed on them by the Yugoslav Communists in 1944 in order to steal Greek Macedonia and attach it to Yugoslavia to gain access to the Agean Sea.

It's not just about a name, it is an attempt by Fyrom and it's hostile diaspora to discredit the Ancient Greek Macedonians with the modern Greek Macedonians and claim the glorious history of Macedon and Alexander as their own and it is an absolute disgrace, insult and attack to Greece and anyone who can't see the Greek logic here is just not human.

Fyroms agenda is to wipe out Greek history and legacy and claim as their own.

every person has the rights too name there country as they wish,greece has no rights too rule the world or ban the countries name macedonia,the history has passed,we are living in a modern and happy world now,greeks claim that alexander was greek,macedonians claim that he wasnt greek,it has been said that he wasnt greek,though no one knows,maybe its time for a new world now,let the macedonians be free and happy ,goodluck too macedonia!

There is a saying that the truth hase longer legs than the lie. And the truth has cuaght up to the Greeks.We had enough lies from the Greeks teling us that Macedonia belongs to them and now another Country Canads does not believe them.Thanks to theConservetives and the Leadership of Steven Harper.

Andy, each time I have made logical arguments to refute your comments and each time all you do spout your opinion. By your method of argument then I can say the Macedonians are Japanese and without any supporting comments it would be true because I said it. If Modern Greeks cannot be called the cultural, linguistic, and geagraphical heirs of the Ancient Greeks then who can. You can believe what you want but it is not based on any sound logic. And then in desperation you throw out the discrimination card. The issue is not discrimination. It is about a newly established state attempting to stabilize itself and increase its legitimacy in the region and world arena by usurping another country's cultural symbols and heritage. It is not the Greeks that are claiming the entire geographical region of Macedonia for themselves but the Skopjan-Macedonians. It's these irridentist moves that are fueling the fire of the name dispute and to call the Star of Vergina and Alexander the Great non-Hellenic symbols is against all historical logic. By the way, prior to 1944 the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia was called the Republika Vardarska or Vardar Republic. What's wrong with that name? Could it be that the boundaries of that Republic are fixed at the current boundaries of FYROM whereas the Republic of Macedonia includes lands in Greece and Bulgaria? Just curious.

Andy, first of all if you read my comments I never once said that there exists some racially pure population in the Balkans, Greek or otherwise. In fact I agree with you on this point, however, there is a direct link LINGUISTICALLY and CULTURALLY with the Ancient Greeks and Modern Greeks. That's it. That's all. Secondly, the Ancient Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek, they worshiped the Greek gods, their cities had Greek names. The name Alexander is Greek for protector of men, his mother's name was Olympia, his father was Phillip (lover of horses in Greek). Alexander spread Greek ideals throughout the Middle East and Asia ushering in the Hellenistic Period, not the Slavic Period. The New Testament Bible talks of the letters of St. Paul to the Thessalonians and Phillipi, Greek cities located in Macedonia and from a source 300 years after Alexander. I don't see how again the historical facts are being missed. Based on this, the Ancient Macedonians are more directly related culturally and linguistically to the Greek peoples of that time. Why then does it not make sense that Greece can claim its Macedonian heritage?

Ion, please don't make false analogies. Today's Modern Greeks are neither the genetic nor cultural inheritors of the ancient Greeks. They are for the most part Slav, Vlach, Arvanite and a variety of Christian stock from the region. Greeks need to rewrite their history so it bears some truth. As for what language the ancient Macedonians spoke that has nothing to do with people 2500 years later that "chose" to learn to speak Greek.

Roger,

It is not the Gov. who passed the law; it is the Election president, Mr Mayrand. Mr Harper and all Canadian politicians are against and this law will be amended.

I am glad that Canada has recognized the independence of macedonia; it is why I am sure that Canada will also recognized the independence of Kosovo... and ultimately Quebec.

Victor; Canada is recognising us with our constitutional name in bi-lateral communication! We've been independent 16 years; what's that got to do with Kosovo independence?

Ion, if today's Modern Greeks want to believe they are descendants of the ancient Greeks that's their poison. they can drink it as they like. However, this is an ignorant lie and cannot be used as the basis for discriminating against Macedonians. Wake up please, we're living in the 21st century, not the 5th century BC.

Ion, since you'd like to stick to "the true facts", and since, according to you, today Greeks are ancestors of the ancient Greeks, why is Greece claiming Macedonia as it's own? Ancient Greeks never did. In written documents they refer to any people living North of Mt. Olympus as barbarians.
That is until Alexander conquered the Ancient Greek cities. After which they had not much of a choice.
As for the "purity" of a race, please get real. If there is even one family on the Balkan that stayed pure for the last 25 century, I'd like to meet them. And if you truly believe in that purity, I have a planet for sale. Interested?

Ion, your question begs to be answered by question.
If 20 century from now, somebody "digs out" your son or daughter's (or even yours perhaps) life story, would you say that yours/you should be "categorized" as English?
Or if you are not one with Greek background, then try to imagine you are.
You live in Canada, you speak English, write English, your kids go to English schools, you grandkids have names like John or Jackie. Only thing that is Greek about you is THE FACT that you say you ARE GREEK (or Greek background). But 20 century from now you are not going to be around to SAY THAT. So, you'll be ENGLISHMAN to some person who claims that, half Earth was populated by English people, since they spoke and embraced English (Western) culture. Just because in current times English (Western) culture is the most advanced culture.
Try to see the times in history through the eyes of the people living in times in question. And if ancient Greeks considered Macedonians as Barbarians, how can you centuries later claim different?
As for the fact of (non)purity of a nation, fact that we agree on, just adds that much more right to any country (not only Greece) from the region to claim continuity on the past.
And you are not serious when mentioning "Alexander not ushering the Slavic period". Are you? Let's stay adults.

Cira, I understand your analogy and I see what you are trying to say but the question remains: how can the Slavs living in Macedonia today claim Ancient Macedonia as their own when the facts are that the Macedonian culture and language, as stated in my previous comments, is Greek? This is the fundamental question that is being ignored. We can argue ad nauseum that their were probably Phrygians and Illyrians that lived in Macedonia that maybe also spoke Greek but ultimately Ancient Macedonia is more related to Greece than to the Illyrian, Phrygian, and later the Slavic tribes that lived in the area.

OK Ion, since you got my point I was trying to make, let me answer your question and hopefully end this debate.
I'll answer your first question last.
Todays Macedonians are not less related to ancient Macedonians then todays Greeks. I would even argue that todays Macedonians would be, genetically speaking, closer to ancient Macedonians from todays Greeks. Simply just by the fact that they occupy(d) same territory.
Macedonian territory, as I pointed out to you, was NORTH of Mt. Olympus. Greece and Greeks officially came to THAT ancient Macedonian territory, on August 10, 1913 with The Treaty of Bucharest (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/boshtml/bos149.htm). It was not Greek EVER before that.
This is historical fact and it is not up for interpretation. Then the question is: who lived on that territory, which includes todays province of Macedonia in Greece? See map at: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Balkan_Wars_Boundaries.jpg
Peoples (ancient Macedonians) do not vanish in thin air. They got mixed up with Slavs, Phrygians, Illyrians, Turks and everybody else who went through the Balkans, long before Greece (as country) came there. So much for purity of a race on the Balkans and claims of sole rights on a culture (addressed to Katherine two-three comments up).
As for ancient Macedonians, in the melting pot of Balkans they probably got assimilated in to the Slavs culture (hence todays Slavic language). It is no different then todays Italians and ancient Romans. They didn't/don't speak same language, according to Greek external political guidelines they are not the same peoples?
And to answer your "fundamental" question. Macedonians living in Macedonia today don't claim Ancient Macedonia as their own. They only claim to live on the same territory with the ancient Macedonians and is only logical to call that territory Macedonia. Culturally nobody disputes that Alexandar spread Hellenistic ideals throughout the Middle East and Asia (NOT Greek, since no such thing existed at the time). What todays Macedonians claim is that ancient Macedonians are amongst them and as I tried to explain it, only makes sense.
That's the OTHER side (non-cultural) of CONTINUITY.
What I fail to understand is how can Greece today claim not only rights on everything culturally Hellenistic, but also claim territory calling it Province of Macedonia (today Northern Greece) when until year 1913, was never even considered to be Greek? Further more deny basic human rights to whole population on that territory (check UN resolutions on Greece and it's human right record)?
With claiming sole rights on Hellenistic ideals and taking credit for the roots of todays democracy, todays Greek government should maybe pay more attention to the principals of what Hellenistic ideals were. DEMOCRACY - (adj) ruled by the people. ALL people, not only Greek.

Cira, I'm sorry I can't let the debate end yet. Like I said this argument could go on ad nauseum. I will try to address as many issues as I can as we are getting into very complex areas. The statement that Greeks did not come to Macedonia until 1913 is completely wrong. Macedonia was not incorporated into the modern Greek state until that date. That does not mean Greeks were not living there already. Greeks lived there at that time and back to times that pre-date Alexander the Great. You have to be cautious when you use the name of the country Greece and that something is Greek or Hellenistic. Greeks call their land Hellas, their country the Hellenic Republic. Saying someting is Greek or Hellenic also means something that is unified by this culture and language. The pro-Slavo-Macedonian argument that I have heard is that Greece did not exist in the region of Macedonia until 1913, as you say, and actually there was no country of Greece before 1830. Again, this is flawed logic because, yes, the state or political unit of the country of Greece did not exist but that does not mean Greeks didn't exist. The Kurds never had a state of their own yet we recognize them as Kurds (note that they are not usurping Turkey,'s Syria's, or Iraq's national symbols to state their existence). Because of this and using your "Balkan meting pot" analogy, the Ancient Macedonians also probably assimilated with the Greek populations living there (which predate the Slavs by several centuries) so your logic that because the Slavs lived where the Macedonians lived, they are therefore part of Slavo-Macedonia is just plain wrong. You contradict yourself when you say that the Balkans are a melting pot and then speak of genetic similarities to make distinctions between the two. It can't be done and I thought we agreed on this point. I also don't know why other name proposals can't be entertained such as I stated earlier, the Vardar Republic which was the name of FYROM encompassing its present day borders in the first half of the 20th century when it was still part of Yugoslavia. This of course was changed in 1942 or 1944 because Tito wanted to create problems for the allies and the Bulgarian elements on this front during WWII. Another name that is possible is Paeonia which was the name of the area given by the Ancient Macedonians that FYROM currently occupies. I think these names are just as respectful, descriptive, yet carry no irridentist or ethnic connotations. Just wondering.

I'll bite on this one (last time) bacause I have some SABSTANCIATED arguments on this questions (unlike you just repeating the official Greek stand on the issue of name). So get your coffee. This will take some time.
It is NOT ABOUT THE NAME. It is for the Greek government, since it want's to hold on to a teritory under ANY price, including blunt human rights violations.
And that is the problem Greece has today. Not only with Macedonia, but with ALL of it's neighbouring states (Turkey, Bulgaria and Albania).
So you can debate with me on issue of name all you want, but some things like PERSONAL EXPERIENCES are not up for debate. Let me elaborate on this.
You asking me "...why other name proposals can't be entertained...". Here is why.
1st - I lost uncle (my father's oldest brother at age 19) in the Greece Civil War 1944-1949, who was promised by one side in that conflict (the Greek Communist Party) that if they win Macedonians will be ALLOWED to speak, learn and pray in Macedonian language. Something that was OUTLAWED after 1913. Thousands Macedonians died with last words spoken in Macedonian (as much as Greek governments, past and present, like to despute existance of Macedonian minority in Greece, or Slavs Macedonian as you like to call them).
2nd - As a result of the Greece Civil War and loss of the war for the Greek Communist Party, TENS OF THOUSANDS of KIDS were EVACUATED from Province of Macedonia in Greece and sent all over Eastern Europe by Red Cross. Just because the Greek state at the time saw OPPORTUNITY to ethnically cleanse the area of "non-existent" Macedonian population.
Parents followed.
As a result we have HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Macednonians, that once lived in Northern Greece for centuries, now living outside of their villages, towns and cities, as refugees.
Oh, I know, you don't agree. I guessed that much. But let me tell you a short story.
MY PARENTS are 2 of the evacuated kids. It took my father 13 years to find and see his parents. My mother was "lucky" only 5.
And you are asking yourself "...why other name proposals can't be entertained...". For you it may be JUST a name. For me and thousands like me, is where my parents and their parents and so on, were born and are buried.
One more thing. My grandfather was born 1903, 10 years before Greece as a state came there, and his mother tongue was today's Macedonian. Please, don't call him a liar, by calling him Greek. Macedonians lived together with Greeks in that region in peace for centuries, including 5 centuries under Ottoman Empire. That is UNTIL GREEK STATE and it's militant politics from 1913 came along.
How far that militant politic extends some Canadian readers may ask? Let me illustrate.
I was born in Czech Republic as a result of my parents Red Cross evacuation. When at age of 20 (in 1985), after listining stories from my granfather about his beautiful village, I decided to obtain turist viza and see for my self (with Yugoslavian pasport at the time). In the Greek consulate in Skopje, I was given a form to fill. Standard stuff. Name, address and etc. Filled, I give it back to the clerk. Half an hour later I was called in to an office and given another, blank form. This time with verbal "instruction". From my place of birth, they concluded (and they were right) that my background is one of "those evacuated kids". If I wanted a visa I was "instructed", in the field of name to put NOT my real name (Ilija Petrovski), but Ilijas Petridis (sounds Greek, eh?). In the nationality field I was "instructed" to put Greek not Yugoslavian.
You do that to population for years and yes, I agree, there will be no Macedonians, there won't be Turks, Bugarians, nor Albanians in Greece. Only Greeks. But thank God for human spirit that can endure and HUMAN RIGHTS that can document. Also, thanks to countries like Canada, not so fast Ms. Greece.
Suffice to say, I explain the person at the Greek consulate, to take that form and ... where sun doesn't shine.
So, my dear online Greek friend Ion, can you ask me again "...why other name proposals can't be entertained..."?

Cira, I wanted to clarify my earlier suggestion for an alternative name. Paeonia (or Paionia) was the name of the region between the Vardar and Struma rivers around 500BC. Pelagonia is the name of the region to the west of that. My information comes from p. 72-73 of The Penguin Atlas of Ancient Greece (by Robert Morkot, published in 1996 by the Penguin Group of London). There is also a paragraph which I will quote exactly: "Certainly the Thracians and Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis, Orestis, and Lynkestis [the latter a region in Macedonia] spoke West Greek. It is also now accepted that the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their territory, they were essentially Greeks. The main difference between Macedonia and the city-states of the south was that it was ruled by a king and powerful nobility."

Dear Ion, I'm not going down the same path with you again. We exchanged our "opinions" on the history aspect of this conflict.
Rest I would like to leave to the historians to study. I would only add one thing. For every Robert Morkot (your quoted source) I can provide another with oposite stand on the subject ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language ). Like Eugene N. Borza, Ph.D ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search/Eugene_Borza ).
Now, if we could only move to the present, maybe there would be some kind of solution. But, even today, Greece continues to deny basic human rights to Macedonian minority in Greece. It continues to feed Greek people with pseudo self-importance propaganda in order to justify it's poor external politics. And results are here for all to see. Canada, same as many other countries, has and will recognize Macedonia under it's constitutional name. It is only a matter of time for UN to do the same.
Yelling "catch the thief" will only work for so many times, before one gets ignored and recognized as a paranoid neighbour on the block.
So Greece, please get on with it. And people like you Ion, maybe can help to bring change to the future of Greece?. I'm optimist by nature.

Why is it that the macedonians of FYROM argue that Macedonia is not Greek but yet they never argue how Macedonia is somehow part of FYROM? It's because they can't. There is no logical argument that can draw this conclusion.

In this issue the Greeks are even crazier than the Serbs on Kosovo, to make such problems about a simple name....
(robert, 20. September 2007 15:58)

Only thing crazier is Albanians still clinging to their belief that Kosovo will be independent. One stupid comment deserves another.

Everybody in the Balkans knows Macedonia as Macedonia. Today's Modern Greeks need to stop pretending they are related to the ancient Greeks and start doing something positive to help the Balkans move forward. This is a non-issue and no one has the right to tell other people how they can call themselves.

Ion, please don't make false analogies. Today's Modern Greeks are neither the genetic nor cultural inheritors of the ancient Greeks. They are for the most part Slav, Vlach, Arvanite and a variety of Christian stock from the region. Greeks need to rewrite their history so it bears some truth. As for what language the ancient Macedonians spoke that has nothing to do with people 2500 years later that "chose" to learn to speak Greek.

Thank you CANADA!!!

In this issue the Greeks are even crazier than the Serbs on Kosovo, to make such problems about a simple name....

Macedonians' claim to stick to the constitutional name of their state is completely legitimate and the whole nations should recognize them as Republic of Macedonia, including UN and its specialized agencies, EU and NATO. I'm happy that the Albanian Government was the first to recognize Macedonia by its constitutional name. Bravo Canada!

every person has the rights too name there country as they wish,greece has no rights too rule the world or ban the countries name macedonia,the history has passed,we are living in a modern and happy world now,greeks claim that alexander was greek,macedonians claim that he wasnt greek,it has been said that he wasnt greek,though no one knows,maybe its time for a new world now,let the macedonians be free and happy ,goodluck too macedonia!

There is a saying that the truth hase longer legs than the lie. And the truth has cuaght up to the Greeks.We had enough lies from the Greeks teling us that Macedonia belongs to them and now another Country Canads does not believe them.Thanks to theConservetives and the Leadership of Steven Harper.

Ion, if today's Modern Greeks want to believe they are descendants of the ancient Greeks that's their poison. they can drink it as they like. However, this is an ignorant lie and cannot be used as the basis for discriminating against Macedonians. Wake up please, we're living in the 21st century, not the 5th century BC.

Ion, since you'd like to stick to "the true facts", and since, according to you, today Greeks are ancestors of the ancient Greeks, why is Greece claiming Macedonia as it's own? Ancient Greeks never did. In written documents they refer to any people living North of Mt. Olympus as barbarians.
That is until Alexander conquered the Ancient Greek cities. After which they had not much of a choice.
As for the "purity" of a race, please get real. If there is even one family on the Balkan that stayed pure for the last 25 century, I'd like to meet them. And if you truly believe in that purity, I have a planet for sale. Interested?

OK Ion, since you got my point I was trying to make, let me answer your question and hopefully end this debate.
I'll answer your first question last.
Todays Macedonians are not less related to ancient Macedonians then todays Greeks. I would even argue that todays Macedonians would be, genetically speaking, closer to ancient Macedonians from todays Greeks. Simply just by the fact that they occupy(d) same territory.
Macedonian territory, as I pointed out to you, was NORTH of Mt. Olympus. Greece and Greeks officially came to THAT ancient Macedonian territory, on August 10, 1913 with The Treaty of Bucharest (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/boshtml/bos149.htm). It was not Greek EVER before that.
This is historical fact and it is not up for interpretation. Then the question is: who lived on that territory, which includes todays province of Macedonia in Greece? See map at: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Balkan_Wars_Boundaries.jpg
Peoples (ancient Macedonians) do not vanish in thin air. They got mixed up with Slavs, Phrygians, Illyrians, Turks and everybody else who went through the Balkans, long before Greece (as country) came there. So much for purity of a race on the Balkans and claims of sole rights on a culture (addressed to Katherine two-three comments up).
As for ancient Macedonians, in the melting pot of Balkans they probably got assimilated in to the Slavs culture (hence todays Slavic language). It is no different then todays Italians and ancient Romans. They didn't/don't speak same language, according to Greek external political guidelines they are not the same peoples?
And to answer your "fundamental" question. Macedonians living in Macedonia today don't claim Ancient Macedonia as their own. They only claim to live on the same territory with the ancient Macedonians and is only logical to call that territory Macedonia. Culturally nobody disputes that Alexandar spread Hellenistic ideals throughout the Middle East and Asia (NOT Greek, since no such thing existed at the time). What todays Macedonians claim is that ancient Macedonians are amongst them and as I tried to explain it, only makes sense.
That's the OTHER side (non-cultural) of CONTINUITY.
What I fail to understand is how can Greece today claim not only rights on everything culturally Hellenistic, but also claim territory calling it Province of Macedonia (today Northern Greece) when until year 1913, was never even considered to be Greek? Further more deny basic human rights to whole population on that territory (check UN resolutions on Greece and it's human right record)?
With claiming sole rights on Hellenistic ideals and taking credit for the roots of todays democracy, todays Greek government should maybe pay more attention to the principals of what Hellenistic ideals were. DEMOCRACY - (adj) ruled by the people. ALL people, not only Greek.

Well done Canada!

Don't oversimplify the issue. It's not just about the name but the connotations to culture and territory. It would be as if Canada decided to rename Quebec the Province of New York and then claim that Alexander Hamilton and Franklin Delano Roosevelt were from the Province of New York and then they would put the Statue of Liberty on their flag. I don't think that the State of New York or the US would be too happy.

How can Macedonians claim they have anything to do with Alexander the great or ancient Macedonia when they are Slavs, by race creed and language.
Alexander was 1000 years dead by the time modern day Macedonians had even arrived in Skopje.

I think Greece has the right and is not wrong to protest the name just as any country should if it finds it offensive or conflicting. What if the US decided to rename their country the United States Ruler of the World and seek recognition of it at the UN or other world bodies. I think a number of countries would protest so don't say that protesting a name is stupid. There is more to it than just a name.

I don't have enough knowledge on this subject to offer an informed opinion but...
Canada also just passed a law allowing veiled women to vote or whomever is under the burka. All they need is 2 pieces if ID. Can you imagine, if in protest, male voters turned out in huge numbers wearing burkas?

Andy, do you think that today's Americans are all related to George Washington? No, but they can still lay a claim to his legacy because they are American, regardless if their name happens to be Gonzalez, O'Malley, or Obama. Your argument holds no water. The Greeks of today may not be blood relatives of Alexander the Great but they share his culture and language which was Hellenic. Like I said, there's more to it than just a name.

the country does need to develop its economy and greece can help with that, but looking at web forums from the nation there does also seem to be a desire among many there to extend its territory ; if you don't believe me take a look ( I just posted a sourced example, but the mods didn't let it through - don't have a clue why)

Roger,

It is not the Gov. who passed the law; it is the Election president, Mr Mayrand. Mr Harper and all Canadian politicians are against and this law will be amended.

I am glad that Canada has recognized the independence of macedonia; it is why I am sure that Canada will also recognized the independence of Kosovo... and ultimately Quebec.

Victor; Canada is recognising us with our constitutional name in bi-lateral communication! We've been independent 16 years; what's that got to do with Kosovo independence?

Andy, it is your information that is questionable. I suppose the Ancient Greeks died out and were replaced by these peoples that you list in whole. That is what you're saying and it makes no sense. Yes, there were migrations of Slavs into the Balkans in the 6th through 8th century AD but what you are saying is that at that time the Greeks living there already ceased to exist and were replaced by the Slavs who then magically learned to speak Greek out of thin air. I don't claim that there is some ethnically pure race (which is a misnomer) called the Greeks. But culturally, linguistically, and geographically there is a continuous linkage between the Greeks of today and those of 3000 years ago. These are undisputable facts. You need to stop perpetuating the adage that a lie told often enough becomes the truth.

Andy, each time I have made logical arguments to refute your comments and each time all you do spout your opinion. By your method of argument then I can say the Macedonians are Japanese and without any supporting comments it would be true because I said it. If Modern Greeks cannot be called the cultural, linguistic, and geagraphical heirs of the Ancient Greeks then who can. You can believe what you want but it is not based on any sound logic. And then in desperation you throw out the discrimination card. The issue is not discrimination. It is about a newly established state attempting to stabilize itself and increase its legitimacy in the region and world arena by usurping another country's cultural symbols and heritage. It is not the Greeks that are claiming the entire geographical region of Macedonia for themselves but the Skopjan-Macedonians. It's these irridentist moves that are fueling the fire of the name dispute and to call the Star of Vergina and Alexander the Great non-Hellenic symbols is against all historical logic. By the way, prior to 1944 the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia was called the Republika Vardarska or Vardar Republic. What's wrong with that name? Could it be that the boundaries of that Republic are fixed at the current boundaries of FYROM whereas the Republic of Macedonia includes lands in Greece and Bulgaria? Just curious.

Andy, first of all if you read my comments I never once said that there exists some racially pure population in the Balkans, Greek or otherwise. In fact I agree with you on this point, however, there is a direct link LINGUISTICALLY and CULTURALLY with the Ancient Greeks and Modern Greeks. That's it. That's all. Secondly, the Ancient Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek, they worshiped the Greek gods, their cities had Greek names. The name Alexander is Greek for protector of men, his mother's name was Olympia, his father was Phillip (lover of horses in Greek). Alexander spread Greek ideals throughout the Middle East and Asia ushering in the Hellenistic Period, not the Slavic Period. The New Testament Bible talks of the letters of St. Paul to the Thessalonians and Phillipi, Greek cities located in Macedonia and from a source 300 years after Alexander. I don't see how again the historical facts are being missed. Based on this, the Ancient Macedonians are more directly related culturally and linguistically to the Greek peoples of that time. Why then does it not make sense that Greece can claim its Macedonian heritage?

Canada recognised Fyrom as "Macedonia" is a an attack on fundemental principles and Greece has every right to object.

The name Macedonia is a Greek name and is associated with the Ancient Greek Kingdom of Macedonia (Macedon) birthplace of Alexander The Great, who was GREEK!!! Not slavic.

The Slavs came into the Balkans in the 6th century AD, that means 1000 years after Alexander, so how can the state of Skopje claim a Greek name and history as their own? That is THEFT AND FRAUD.

These slavs are Bulgarians and Speak a western Bulgarian dialect, which Bulgaria admits to, but Skopje denies. The name Macedonia was impossed on them by the Yugoslav Communists in 1944 in order to steal Greek Macedonia and attach it to Yugoslavia to gain access to the Agean Sea.

It's not just about a name, it is an attempt by Fyrom and it's hostile diaspora to discredit the Ancient Greek Macedonians with the modern Greek Macedonians and claim the glorious history of Macedon and Alexander as their own and it is an absolute disgrace, insult and attack to Greece and anyone who can't see the Greek logic here is just not human.

Fyroms agenda is to wipe out Greek history and legacy and claim as their own.

Ion, your question begs to be answered by question.
If 20 century from now, somebody "digs out" your son or daughter's (or even yours perhaps) life story, would you say that yours/you should be "categorized" as English?
Or if you are not one with Greek background, then try to imagine you are.
You live in Canada, you speak English, write English, your kids go to English schools, you grandkids have names like John or Jackie. Only thing that is Greek about you is THE FACT that you say you ARE GREEK (or Greek background). But 20 century from now you are not going to be around to SAY THAT. So, you'll be ENGLISHMAN to some person who claims that, half Earth was populated by English people, since they spoke and embraced English (Western) culture. Just because in current times English (Western) culture is the most advanced culture.
Try to see the times in history through the eyes of the people living in times in question. And if ancient Greeks considered Macedonians as Barbarians, how can you centuries later claim different?
As for the fact of (non)purity of a nation, fact that we agree on, just adds that much more right to any country (not only Greece) from the region to claim continuity on the past.
And you are not serious when mentioning "Alexander not ushering the Slavic period". Are you? Let's stay adults.

Cira, I understand your analogy and I see what you are trying to say but the question remains: how can the Slavs living in Macedonia today claim Ancient Macedonia as their own when the facts are that the Macedonian culture and language, as stated in my previous comments, is Greek? This is the fundamental question that is being ignored. We can argue ad nauseum that their were probably Phrygians and Illyrians that lived in Macedonia that maybe also spoke Greek but ultimately Ancient Macedonia is more related to Greece than to the Illyrian, Phrygian, and later the Slavic tribes that lived in the area.

Cira, I'm sorry I can't let the debate end yet. Like I said this argument could go on ad nauseum. I will try to address as many issues as I can as we are getting into very complex areas. The statement that Greeks did not come to Macedonia until 1913 is completely wrong. Macedonia was not incorporated into the modern Greek state until that date. That does not mean Greeks were not living there already. Greeks lived there at that time and back to times that pre-date Alexander the Great. You have to be cautious when you use the name of the country Greece and that something is Greek or Hellenistic. Greeks call their land Hellas, their country the Hellenic Republic. Saying someting is Greek or Hellenic also means something that is unified by this culture and language. The pro-Slavo-Macedonian argument that I have heard is that Greece did not exist in the region of Macedonia until 1913, as you say, and actually there was no country of Greece before 1830. Again, this is flawed logic because, yes, the state or political unit of the country of Greece did not exist but that does not mean Greeks didn't exist. The Kurds never had a state of their own yet we recognize them as Kurds (note that they are not usurping Turkey,'s Syria's, or Iraq's national symbols to state their existence). Because of this and using your "Balkan meting pot" analogy, the Ancient Macedonians also probably assimilated with the Greek populations living there (which predate the Slavs by several centuries) so your logic that because the Slavs lived where the Macedonians lived, they are therefore part of Slavo-Macedonia is just plain wrong. You contradict yourself when you say that the Balkans are a melting pot and then speak of genetic similarities to make distinctions between the two. It can't be done and I thought we agreed on this point. I also don't know why other name proposals can't be entertained such as I stated earlier, the Vardar Republic which was the name of FYROM encompassing its present day borders in the first half of the 20th century when it was still part of Yugoslavia. This of course was changed in 1942 or 1944 because Tito wanted to create problems for the allies and the Bulgarian elements on this front during WWII. Another name that is possible is Paeonia which was the name of the area given by the Ancient Macedonians that FYROM currently occupies. I think these names are just as respectful, descriptive, yet carry no irridentist or ethnic connotations. Just wondering.

I'll bite on this one (last time) bacause I have some SABSTANCIATED arguments on this questions (unlike you just repeating the official Greek stand on the issue of name). So get your coffee. This will take some time.
It is NOT ABOUT THE NAME. It is for the Greek government, since it want's to hold on to a teritory under ANY price, including blunt human rights violations.
And that is the problem Greece has today. Not only with Macedonia, but with ALL of it's neighbouring states (Turkey, Bulgaria and Albania).
So you can debate with me on issue of name all you want, but some things like PERSONAL EXPERIENCES are not up for debate. Let me elaborate on this.
You asking me "...why other name proposals can't be entertained...". Here is why.
1st - I lost uncle (my father's oldest brother at age 19) in the Greece Civil War 1944-1949, who was promised by one side in that conflict (the Greek Communist Party) that if they win Macedonians will be ALLOWED to speak, learn and pray in Macedonian language. Something that was OUTLAWED after 1913. Thousands Macedonians died with last words spoken in Macedonian (as much as Greek governments, past and present, like to despute existance of Macedonian minority in Greece, or Slavs Macedonian as you like to call them).
2nd - As a result of the Greece Civil War and loss of the war for the Greek Communist Party, TENS OF THOUSANDS of KIDS were EVACUATED from Province of Macedonia in Greece and sent all over Eastern Europe by Red Cross. Just because the Greek state at the time saw OPPORTUNITY to ethnically cleanse the area of "non-existent" Macedonian population.
Parents followed.
As a result we have HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Macednonians, that once lived in Northern Greece for centuries, now living outside of their villages, towns and cities, as refugees.
Oh, I know, you don't agree. I guessed that much. But let me tell you a short story.
MY PARENTS are 2 of the evacuated kids. It took my father 13 years to find and see his parents. My mother was "lucky" only 5.
And you are asking yourself "...why other name proposals can't be entertained...". For you it may be JUST a name. For me and thousands like me, is where my parents and their parents and so on, were born and are buried.
One more thing. My grandfather was born 1903, 10 years before Greece as a state came there, and his mother tongue was today's Macedonian. Please, don't call him a liar, by calling him Greek. Macedonians lived together with Greeks in that region in peace for centuries, including 5 centuries under Ottoman Empire. That is UNTIL GREEK STATE and it's militant politics from 1913 came along.
How far that militant politic extends some Canadian readers may ask? Let me illustrate.
I was born in Czech Republic as a result of my parents Red Cross evacuation. When at age of 20 (in 1985), after listining stories from my granfather about his beautiful village, I decided to obtain turist viza and see for my self (with Yugoslavian pasport at the time). In the Greek consulate in Skopje, I was given a form to fill. Standard stuff. Name, address and etc. Filled, I give it back to the clerk. Half an hour later I was called in to an office and given another, blank form. This time with verbal "instruction". From my place of birth, they concluded (and they were right) that my background is one of "those evacuated kids". If I wanted a visa I was "instructed", in the field of name to put NOT my real name (Ilija Petrovski), but Ilijas Petridis (sounds Greek, eh?). In the nationality field I was "instructed" to put Greek not Yugoslavian.
You do that to population for years and yes, I agree, there will be no Macedonians, there won't be Turks, Bugarians, nor Albanians in Greece. Only Greeks. But thank God for human spirit that can endure and HUMAN RIGHTS that can document. Also, thanks to countries like Canada, not so fast Ms. Greece.
Suffice to say, I explain the person at the Greek consulate, to take that form and ... where sun doesn't shine.
So, my dear online Greek friend Ion, can you ask me again "...why other name proposals can't be entertained..."?

Cira, I wanted to clarify my earlier suggestion for an alternative name. Paeonia (or Paionia) was the name of the region between the Vardar and Struma rivers around 500BC. Pelagonia is the name of the region to the west of that. My information comes from p. 72-73 of The Penguin Atlas of Ancient Greece (by Robert Morkot, published in 1996 by the Penguin Group of London). There is also a paragraph which I will quote exactly: "Certainly the Thracians and Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis, Orestis, and Lynkestis [the latter a region in Macedonia] spoke West Greek. It is also now accepted that the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their territory, they were essentially Greeks. The main difference between Macedonia and the city-states of the south was that it was ruled by a king and powerful nobility."

Dear Ion, I'm not going down the same path with you again. We exchanged our "opinions" on the history aspect of this conflict.
Rest I would like to leave to the historians to study. I would only add one thing. For every Robert Morkot (your quoted source) I can provide another with oposite stand on the subject ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language ). Like Eugene N. Borza, Ph.D ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search/Eugene_Borza ).
Now, if we could only move to the present, maybe there would be some kind of solution. But, even today, Greece continues to deny basic human rights to Macedonian minority in Greece. It continues to feed Greek people with pseudo self-importance propaganda in order to justify it's poor external politics. And results are here for all to see. Canada, same as many other countries, has and will recognize Macedonia under it's constitutional name. It is only a matter of time for UN to do the same.
Yelling "catch the thief" will only work for so many times, before one gets ignored and recognized as a paranoid neighbour on the block.
So Greece, please get on with it. And people like you Ion, maybe can help to bring change to the future of Greece?. I'm optimist by nature.

Why is it that the macedonians of FYROM argue that Macedonia is not Greek but yet they never argue how Macedonia is somehow part of FYROM? It's because they can't. There is no logical argument that can draw this conclusion.