Friday, 07.09.2007.
09:57
Washington has voiced concern about contradictory signals from Serbia about the use of force to prevent Kosovo's independence.
Izvor: AFP
pre 16 godina
I am sorry but 1244 was meant to be: Kosovo within Serbia.
We all know that.
That's what the NATO won for the Kosovars. Not more, not less.
Kosovo=1244
Kosovo=province
Kosovo=Serbia
We all know that. Come on, guys, don't cheat! Apply the rules.'
(I am NOT from Serbia, not even from the Balkans)
pre 16 godina
Hi DimTuc,
I read through all links posted by Benny and yourself and I am halfway satisfied. The Kosovo list it does include the number but I would have liked to have seen dates, locations, more hard evidence as I have seen with many sites detailing Christian Holy sites damaged. Still, it is awful to hear and I feel remorse for all that went on. As for Bosnia the link you provided was kind of the same not really detailed enough to satisfy me but still a raw look into the damage that went on in the war. So thanks for to Benny and you for those.
I wasn't bringing in the Ottomon rule to whitewash anything Serbian. Its just that my first post was about churches in Kosovo being afflicted than you wrote back answering and furter using Bosnia as an example that is why I went into the past. In no way does the Ottoman oppression take the place of any crime a Serbian in uniform carried out...but it is something to take notice of why? Because Albanians are constantly screaming about the injustices they suffered in 78 days as their greatest argument to have an independent state...wow I can't imagine if they massacred by the Ustase and SS divisions and ruined for 500 years with turks and then in 1995 totally pushed out of Kosovo forever, what then would you say if 78 days was the greatest suffering of the Albanian people? one day that will be the distant past/ but don't you see if you can say that about Kosovo - Serbs can say the same. Krajina Serbs were almost totally killed off in the first WWI that is a fact along with any kind of Serb and then in the next WW the same. YOu can dispute that all you want, but there are countless graves to visit if you would like all through Serbian areas reminding us of the truth. And you can dispute facts but the truth is Serbia WON both wars, you can't dispute that, General Mihajlovic was given the highest honor by America. These are facts nothing to be disputed, the number dead will always be disputed but one innocent victim in the face of Nazi Germany, Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo Albanians were one too many. The fact is Croats, Bosniaks, K-Albanians, have always fought against freedom and with the death machine of the Germans, that is a fact...and you lost every time. The wars of the 90's were not fought by Serbia except the Kosovo war. Bosnia, Serbia no matter how much you want to believe did not fight, first it was Vojska Yugoslavia not Vojska Serbia and if Serbia was to fight the war would be over in months cause SErbia as Yugoslavia at that time was militarly stronger than all other ex-yugos. Really in Krajina it was a bunch of young kids fighting, poor kids from the farm, you don't realize that Serbs from Croatia wanted the same thing as you, Tudman stripped their rights as a people in 1991 before the war started, they wanted the same as K-Albanians. Bosnian Serbs also are not Islamic and didn't want to live under Isalm, the war was not started by Serbia which was Yugoslavia at the time. The war was started when Izetbegovic pushed to control the whole of Bosnia under Islam, when Christianity was and still is the majority. That war was complicated and a lot had to do with the premature recognition of states which was illegal under the constitution without a referendum, the ex states triggered that war, i'm sorry it wasnot Serbia. At that time Serbs did not even say they were Serbs, they were always Yugoslavs, I know that 100%. Tito never allowed Serbs their identities and convinced them they were Yugoslavs meanwhile everyone else even the montenegrins were allowed to call themselves their own. So...please Serbia did not want the Kosovo war or the 90's wars, Rambuliet was a gun to their head and Bosnia and Croatia was planned long ago.
pre 16 godina
Benny,
First thanks for the links, I read through them and the unesco site was most helpful, it partly satisfied me and the reason I say partly is because I can't find an exact list of Mosque's damaged, their locations and photographs, where as there are dozens of websites where I see the actual damage to Christian sites. Still, it was informative. And I never said that the war in Kosovo was a lie. I don't know where you got the idea from. Definitely it was not. And I know that both people suffered during the 78 days. 2,108 bodies found I know that figure it is reported throughout honest media...but it was not all Albanians - you know that. I understand an Albanians drive for freedom. I am just sorry that it is a place where Albanians cant claim their own. If it were Albanians that Kosovo was always home to then why weren't they fighting the Serbs in 1389...it was the Serbs fighting the Turks for Kosovo...where were the Albanians if it was theirs they would have been fighting no doubt. So, it is just hard to believe that Kosovo is anything but Serbian. Serbs too wanted freedom and that is why they fought against the Ottomans, Germany, Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia during the big wars and the Serbs won both times. The Kosovo war didn't have to happen do you really think little Serbia wanted to fight NATO - 18+ countries of the strongest in the world? But the fact is every Serb sees Kosovo as their Fatherland, and Albanians see Kosovo as home too...what will happen. I don't know...what I do know is Albanians live freely throughtout Serbia proper, no one bothers them, they live very free and with quality. We cannot say the same about a Serb living in Zagreb, or Ljubljana, Pristina, Tuzla, or anywhere else in the balkans. Why? I dont know but I do know that Croats, Muslims, many Albanians have hated Serbs long before the 1990's. Everybody knows that...and maybe it had something to do with the fact that all of these ethnic groups have hated Serbs for decades because they all lost in every big war.
pre 16 godina
lazer,
Why isn't Serbia allowed to protect its territorial integrety.
Kosovo is part of Serbia.
You may not like that, but it is the case.
And if the Northern part of Kosovo wants to stay with Serbia are Kosovar troops then allowed to go in?
May Kosovo protect its territorial integrety? And Serbia may not?
STRANGE WORLD!
pre 16 godina
Hi Rocky
Benny has provided a couple of links re the 200 or so mosques destroyed in Kosovo/a by the Serbian army.
Re the Bosnia figures, they come from the most thorough research to date on the Bosnia war, carried out by the Research and Documentation Centre, a team including Bosnian serbs, Croats, Muslims and international experts.
Quote:
" According to the results of our investigations 917 sacral complexes belonging to the Islamic Community were totally destroyed, while 731 were lightly or heavily damaged; 311 structures of Catholic Community were destroyed or damaged, as well as 34 belonging to the Orthodox Community and 7 to Jewish Community."
http://www.idc.org.ba/aboutus.html
As for the rest of your post, we could get into a big argument but its been done before. Bringing up the Ottoman empire to try to whitewash what the Serbian regime did to others in the 1990s is truly absurd. I know Serbian propaganda of the 1980s and 1990s conflated living and breathing Bosnian Muslim and Kosovar Albanian men, women and children with the Ottoman rulers of centuries ago, but that awful medievalist propaganda is not what you expect intelligent people to be regurgiating now. As for the rest of your 'history' lesson re WWI, WWII, the causes of the Balkan wars of the 1990s etc, I reject pretty much every "fact" you've put forward but I'm not gonna go into it all just at the moment. Just you should have a think before continually telling us all how "amazed" you are that people here are expressing views different to your own, have a think about how ludicrous it is to claim Serbia never wanted the wars in the 1990s yet Serbia just happened to the be state waging those wars, doing the vast bulk of the killing, the vast bulk of the destruction, the vast bulk of the ethnic cleansing etc, but then they cry wolf when at the *end* of such conflicts (ie, Krajina 1995) they get the same medicine. You see, it was quite OK when the Serbian (still called "Yugoslav") army drove 100s of 1000s of Croats from their homes in a third of Croatia in 1991 while destroying the country, but it is definitely not OK when the Croat army does the same in reverse in 1995. I'm certanly not justifying the second, just pointing to the absurdity of the Serb nationalist tendency to justify the first action by pointing to the reaction several years later.
pre 16 godina
ahmet isufi says…” The fact of the amtter is that b92 did edit my coment severaly and I never got my chance to explain to Albanian serbs the whole story.”.
The fact of the matter is that frequently I can’t understand your comments because the grammar and spelling is severely lacking in accuracy. Serbs or anyone else reading them can't get the full story.
pre 16 godina
Rocky said "
Serbs have won over oppression and in injustice in both World wars and the amount of destruction on their identity, sacrifice, culture, places of worship was more than any history book could offer. But they WON, freedom won. "
That's excactly what Albainans wont the oldest thing the humanity ever asked the basis of civilization -- its freedom.
I think I did explain to you earlier that there was a war In Kosovo/a and people were massacred houses burned and entire world saw it (except few of you !!!!)
Here few links to answer your question on burnings http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_09/uk/signe.htm
2. http://www.sacred-sites.org/preservation/kosovo.html.
3. http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kosovo98/photo/pics899/kos899g.htm
When you said earlier that the war was a lie let me quote The Kosovo war was unique in the history of international conflict, in that human-rights and forensics teams entered the territory on the heels of the arriving KFOR troops. Between June and October 1999, the International Criminal Tribunal oversaw exhumations from some 175 graves of the 525 gravesites they said had been marked off for investigation. (How many might remain undiscovered, given the Tribunal's limited resources and Serb efforts to cover up the crimes, is not known.) Some two thousand bodies -- 2,108, to be precise -- had been exhumed when the Tribunal issued its preliminary report in November 1999. Chief prosecutor Carla del Ponte also spoke of widespread evidence of tampering with the gravesites and destruction of evidence -- standard Serb procedure throughout the Balkans wars." link... http://www.gendercide.org/case_kosovo.html
I tried to attach the most independet media as possible in hope that at least you will have some respect for all those surviving families (whether being Albanian,Serbian or other)
thank you
pre 16 godina
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
The EU, UN & US is trying to bully around Serbia over the status of KosovO. One very "large" item that all these superpowers fail to realize is that KosovO is still a geographic part of Serbia.
State Department spokesman Tom Casey said, "We have two contradictory statements out there by two officials from the government," and added threats of military force were "unhelpful." President bush/the US and yourself included Mr. Casey haven't made any contradictory statements? I highly doubt that.
Any pro-albanian posters - if you're so gun-ho on the US backing you up - just look at all the wonderful things they're doing in the middle east.
pre 16 godina
Well,
I believe that all this comments are result of lack of information. Everybody spells out 1244 and international law. All the laws in Kosovo are in accordance with 1244 that is laws dealing with common things. Other things more sensitive had to go through New York, such as privatisation - Serbia opposed to that, it tried to stop, the issue was sent to New York, and the green light was given in accordance with 1244 - same with other issues including the status. Every thing is being done in accordance with 1244, which in addition to the text, has something between the lines. Otherwise, if UN HQ in New York would believe that the meaning of 1244, expressed between the lines, is that Kosovo would remain part of Serbia than they would never approve the sale of "Serbian enterprises, Serbian land, or anything". Same procedure will be used for its status, New York will say in accordance with 1244 we decided to accept the unsaid compromise between the parties and hence Kosovo will be like we meant it to be on 24 march 1999.
By the way, I cannot find any Kosovo strategic document prepared by internationals or with their assistance (as it happened from 1999) which doesn't foresee independence, and all such documents are build on such ground.
pre 16 godina
The fact of the amtter is that b92 did edit my coment severaly and I never got my chance to explain to Albanian serbs the whole story, Sorry guys.
pre 16 godina
If UN resolution 1244 and the Kumanovo military technical agreement is off then the serb army can enter Kosovo legally. If they do it is another matter but they can do it without breaching the law. It is not a threat but simple logic. Some police and army can return even under UN resolution 1244. Does it mean the albanians consider the UN resolution 1244 being a threat aswell?
pre 16 godina
I am glad to see this Prorokovic type statements. The more of it the better! The whole world will realize that without Milosevic Serbia is still the same as in the nineties, still a real danger to the lifes and well-being of the K-Albanians. So the only long awaited solution is the independence of Kosovo, pardon Kosova.
pre 16 godina
What's amazing about that link Cvele?
Don't you get it?
People have to go on with their everyday life after all. At the moment when the status of Kosovo is disputed people have needs to travel abroad. It says in the article that UNMIK passports are recognized only in 40 countries.
Just so you can get it let me spell it out for you.
THIS IS THE REASON WHY KOSOVO STATUS NEEDS TO BE RESOLVED ASAP. THIS IS THE REASON KOSOVO NEED TO BE INDEPENDENT ASAP.
PS: Don't make fun of the suffering of people.
pre 16 godina
DimTuc,
I did search the resources that were available to me and although I found no concrete list of Mosques damaged or destroyed in Kosovo during the 98-99 conflict I found two articles claiming that your figure was true. One was from a Western prosecutation witness from the Hague claiming that indeed over 200 Mosques were damaged or destroyed. The only problem is I can't find any lists or pictures or any other kind of substantial evidence. If you could forward me anything it would be great. If it indeed happened then shame on those commited the acts. Next 1650 Mosques afflicted during the Bosnia war, also could not find any information on this, please refer me to the right place. But since you are bringing up the past lets bring it up openly. I won't even begin to write about the suffering of the Serb and Greek and others during Ottoman rule. The Serb nation was inflicted with such severe oppression and crime that would be to gruesome to write about here but you can read very carefully anywhere about the Turks and their ways. So lets just get this straight for 500 years Serbs were subjected to the most grotesque crimes and treatment. Then lets move onto to WWI where Albanians fought with those who were against Freedom and justice and they lost and the German race and Hungarians lost together with the Croats and the Bosniaks. During that war the Serbs were almost completely erased from the world. WWII Albanians lost again along with the Nazi's, the Bosniaks and the Ustasa. You all lost and in that loss you destroyed most of Serbia and anything Serbian. Please don't play that game because history is clear Serbs have won over oppression and in injustice in both World wars and the amount of destruction on their identity, sacrifice, culture, places of worship was more than any history book could offer. But they WON, freedom won.
And in the wars of the 1990's Serbia never wanted. You still don't get that Croatia was planning independence long ago anybody who lived in that area in the 20th century knew it was every Croatian's dying wish to have independence just like long before you and Nikshala were born Albanians were hoping the same. Do you realize that there are almost no Serbs in Croatia, that is like now as Kosovo being 10% of Serbia's population and most being Albanian that they were almost all gone from Kosovo - only 3% left...most in the world enjoy hearing that Serbia is now home to 100000's of refugees. I don't know anything about 1650 Mosques destroyed in the war I do know that on various occasions there could have been an end to that war an Izetbegovic who twice removed his signature from the peace treaties and instead followed the creed of his Islamic Declaration of the 70's and went forward with his plan to centralize Bosnia under Islamic rule with or without force.
pre 16 godina
Perhaps the US needs to explain it's ACTIONS better to the world, for action speaks louder than words. How about these for starters: Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosovo, Bosnia, Greneda, Panama, Somalia, Sudan, Libya, Phillipines. Just as always, do as I say not as I do, for rules which apply to the world certainly don't match to the US.
pre 16 godina
Jovan,
Reading you post's is like reading a science fiction novel...
"it won´t be a real problem to control that territory militarily. you can believe me, I know what I am writing.
Serbia won´t be alone, there will be european personnel as well, or did you think the EU will let the Albanians attack serbian security forces in order to create instability??? "
NATO is prepared to act if Serb forces try to even get near the border..and i must say it wont be a pleasant for SerbForces..Like UK annalist sad "The serbian troops don't have the moral or the power to stand against KFOR or NATO trops in kosovo".
Good day..
pre 16 godina
But america says nothing to the daily albanian threats???
(Ratko, 7. September 2007 15:11)
Please do provide some links.
The only statement made from our goverment (Kosova Government) is that they will proclaim independence. That is not a threat but a diplomatic action which seeks world recognition.
threat (thrìt) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment.
pre 16 godina
Mospyt,
there are thousands getting their Serbian passports http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/administration/afp-news.html?id=070907141247.yxqrbta3&cat=null
pre 16 godina
Ahmet Isufi
If you were born in Kosovo you are a Serb (no ifs, buts, ands, ors). You are included in our population and as such are a Serbian with albanian heritage. I dont know how they do it in Albania and if you even consider the womens background when looking at heritage but in Serbia (coutry you are from) we look at it if you were born here. Sorta like US, Canada, Germany, cant be born in New York and say ur not American but are only a New Yorker. It doesnt make sence so nothing else counts. Otherwise you admit its an invasion of our country.
PRINCIP, KATE, ahmet, EVERYONE
THIS IS TRULLY AMAZING
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jWIhQCAuPGDNEruvqQKzy34KkxLQ
pre 16 godina
B92 this is no different then what our politicans are saying. Why are my comments that are basically mirroring those of some of our elected officials being sensored? As for me claiming that 10000 dead albans were all KLA its to properly balance the alban claims that they were all civilians. Without mentioning that they were armed. Its very unfair to me that in a dire time such as this, we are being silenced by our own media. Most if not all people I know agree with me that Serbia will be forced to act. So please post this as it is a reply to a couple of instigating posts by several albans.
pre 16 godina
Princip,
Many people (including myself) can guarantee you that Kosovo will soon proclaim its independence, thus this is not a threat but rather a fact.
Can you guarantee that Serb military will enter Kosovo after independence.
I really doubt that, thus don't put these two things in the same perspective.
pre 16 godina
to Valdet, sorry if it was someone elses comment, but I think it was Valdet.
Valdet,
compare Kosovo the small southern serbian province with the whole of Iraq, go on, take a map and compare!
Kosovo is small, slightly bigger than Rhode Island, USA.
it won´t be a real problem to control that territory militarily. you can believe me, I know what I am writing.
Serbia won´t be alone, there will be european personnel as well, or did you think the EU will let the Albanians attack serbian security forces in order to create instability???
like miri tried to speak in Einstein´s words... EU won´t make the same mistake a second time! Serbia is now a democratic country, and they have interests in Serbia!
that´s what makes your position quite limpy.
but you will realize that yourself, sooner or later.
pre 16 godina
Some serb camp posters are using deragotory language and you still post them. Once and for all, when you say serbian albanians that means the child that was born had a serbian father and albanian mother. So, please all of you uneducted serb camp get rid of that notion, because there is no such thing.
pre 16 godina
Kosovo is not a Serbian land Kosovo has been occupied by Serbs but it's not Serbian land... by law is still somehow part of Serbia but the law was wrong when they gave kosovo to serbia at london conference..... international community made a mistake by giving kosovo to serbia now they are trying to correct their mistake.........
in 1999 serbia had killed so many people masacred many of them and I'm from Reqak which the big massacre took place And let me tell you one thing Serbian army will never enter kosovo.
go read books when milosevic took power how he took the land from albanian people and give it to serbs just to make sure there was a serbian in kosovo..........
.......when human are in peace they look for war, when they are in war they look toward the peace..........
pre 16 godina
I don’t know of any country that would idly sit back and allow their boundaries to be forcibly changed by internal or external forces without responding.
If Serbia is attempting to keep the West guessing about what they see as their options and just how they will respond, they are doing a good job of it. Mixed signals are not a bad thing and Serbia is under no obligation to explain themselves.
pre 16 godina
Princip,there is no such thing as Serbian Albanian. You should know this!!!!
pre 16 godina
Serbia did not state any provocative it was merely pointing out in response the inevitable consequence of what the Serbian Albanian leadership say on a daily basis egged on by the US. I posted in comment 7 Botsan-Kharchenko understanding and it is clear that if the US want turn a blind eye to the "provocative" threats of the ethnic Albainan leadership they are bound to get a response from the Serbian side. At least that has cleared the air so hopefully the talks can get on with a reality that there is no alternative to a "negotiated comrpomise" apart from provocations in action rather then words. That said I am surprised at the patience most Serbian ministers have had upto now but the cats out of the bag now so get on with the talks and keep the jaw-jaw going till they find the Win-win!
pre 16 godina
So Marshal Law now has a woldwide ban, when a country's citizens start to declare their own rules and ignores the laws set forth by their government? hmmm was not aware.
pre 16 godina
Nikshala: "I do not know who predictor is, and I don't really see the point or the benefit in writing in two nicknames."
Me neither, or have the time, but apparently I am Princip as well as Kate!! LOL.
pre 16 godina
kate, at least we angree on something
pre 16 godina
Ofcourse america is now angry when Serbia makes a threat - because they are biased. Oh noooo Serbia made a threat.
But america says nothing to the daily albanian threats???
pre 16 godina
This circus of failed Serbian politicians needs proper Serbian Radicals so the world gets the proper picture of the Serbian politicians once again. Actually this kind of statements are proving why NATO had to intervene. This tells a lot how much are the these guys prepared to live with Kosova Albanians together. Also, it looks like now we are entering the phase when the rift between the Serbian political parties is growing. I cant wait to see further developments in Serbian political scene.
On the other hand K-Albanians are prepared to take their fate in their hands and declare the Independence and see except USA and UK who else is prepared to recognize it. According to the world diplomats Ahtisari plan is recognized as the only solution accepted for EU countries. So guess what, this plan Kosova government will adopt to start with even though I personally oppose it since it gives to much to a little minority.
Princip, by calling someone Serbian Albanian you are undervaluing your intelligence and knowledge, telling everyone that you have no knowledge of the ethnicities in Balkans and unfit for productive discussion. This to me sounds like posting in a very agitated state of mind. However, this does not matter at all since you are not going to call this name for very long.
I must admit that creating a state from scratch is not proving to be easy even in your own place. I guess that most of you do not understand this that’s why you are so much against it
pre 16 godina
No different from the mixed signals being sent by Washington, where one day its says it will work within the structures of international law to solve the Kosovo problem, and another when it says it will recognize a unilateral declaration of independence. Each country has their moderate Jeremic's and their loudmouth Holbrook's. The goal of international geopolitics is to keep the other competitors guessing...
pre 16 godina
Wonderful news. DSS is contributing for the indipendence of Kosova. Prorokovic for sure merits a medal from the President Sejdiu. Go ahead DSS, your work is to be rewarded soon with the statehood of Kosova.
pre 16 godina
Serbian Camp,
very often I here you (referring to the situation Iraq), like USA is not able to control the situation there-Iraq, in meantime that you support the deployment of Serb forces in Kosova. Well, what will be the Serbian chances to control Kosova? Who will send his sons here in Kosova? Will you gentleman’s and ladies enlist yourself for Kosova or rather you will prefer see the someone else’s son bleeding instead you?
pre 16 godina
Actually, it is the US who are sending mixed signals. On one hand they want Serbia to stop using inflammatory language and threaten military action in case greater albania were unilaterally recognized. On the other hand their whole argument for allowing a greater albania is to 'prevent the the threat of violence', which the albanians have been repeatedly threatening if they don't get their way. The threat of violence is the only card that the albanians have, and the US is happy to play that card. Hypocrites. We can see right through them. If the US were fair and impartial, which they are clearly not, they would tell the albanian side that threats of violence are unacceptable and will be put down by KFOR, with airplanes and bombs if necessary. Instead they use it as their main argument for the illegal and immoral plan to create a greater albania on Serbian soil. This is what happens when your whole foreign policy is based on which lobby groups donate the most money to corrupt government officials, instead of being based on truth and justice. Luckily, it looks like truth and justice are finally prevailing despite the albanian lobby groups well financed campaign of misinformation.
pre 16 godina
Well said Kosove
The whole point of the last weeks meeting was to ask the both side to refrain from saying inflamatory comments that might jeoperdise the negotianing process, something that both side agree to do.
But Serbia broke this agreement straight away, and it just shows that Serbia is not interested in negotiations because they know that albanians will not agree to their ridicuoul 'autonomy' proposals. And instead all they are trying to do is make the situation worse, and go down on history as the leaders who tried to stop the 'evil' powers stealing Kosovo.
At the end of the day these are just empty threats. They are directed at people like Jovan, Princip, Cvele, Raso, who still live in the 90s. The situation is not like in 1999 when the serbian army was already in Kosovo. If they tried to invade, militarily it would be a whole different story and a disaster, NATO wouldn't even have to use its ground troops, since they could stop the SA with bombs, before it even gets to Kosovo borders.
pre 16 godina
Hey Serb Camp, why are you getting so nervous?
I saw the video of the State Department conference. You should have seen it, it's on the web, google it.
" “They have promised, and they have violated the agreement less than a week after”, said Gallach. "
What a surprised, I'm so shocked.
pre 16 godina
Can someone from the serb camp explain what on earth is the Serb military supposed to do in Kosovo?
Let's say there is no KFOR, and then what? Do you think you can start a new war?
And if you do, what would you achieve? Do you think that you will be able to expel 2M albainans like in 1999, because otherwise I don't see the point of serb army being deployed in Kosovo.
Albert Einstein used to say: (more ore less like this) "Stupidity is when you repeat the same experiment over again and fail the same way over again"
pre 16 godina
If the US doesn't respect the Kumanovo agreement and UN resolution 1244 then of course Serbia can enter the province with its army. I dont understand why the americans seem so surprised?!?! Dont they know what they have agreed to?
pre 16 godina
Jovan
haha, I can assure you that I only write under the nickname 'nikshala'. whcih stand for my own name Kreshnik Shala.
I do not know who predictor is, and I don't really see the point or the benefit in writing in two nicknames.
Milosevic and the serbian politicans at the time , where doing and saying things that thought would benefit Serbia, but did it?
If its not benefiting albanians, why do you think that international community minus Russia, is discussion all options independence, partition, status-quo, apart from AUTONOMY? becasue they know the type of politicans in Belgrade, and they don't want another 1999 situation.
pre 16 godina
US as a country in the world always works to calm the world.
(lazer, 7. September 2007 12:48)
Of course Iraq war is very calming! LOL!
pre 16 godina
nikshala, ...or should I say predictor ( both the same person ) :
don´t be that naive... if it would serve the Albanians, they wouldn´t say it, that´s something you can be sure of.
if that is all what you can say, that everything that doesn´t fit into your view on how negotiations are being held, or how they are being prepared... than better stay quiet.
ps: stop pretending to be more than one writer...
pre 16 godina
I predict this Serbian Government as is,sorry to say, but, will not survive Dec 10th, given a fact that nobody knows who really is in charge.
The two partis in charge are split on many issues,like NATO, EU, Kosovo/a, they each are pulling on opposite side.
There is an old say: "when two argue the third one succeeds.
Princip=Kate, you are DREAMING., not only today, but, the last 8 years if you think that SA will go back to Kosovo.
The Kumanovo agreement was done in 1999, so the lives of Serbian asoldiers were to be spared. It does not hold any important value anymore.
And if Serbia wants to go into Kosovo...? Hold your breath, your russian friends will not help you.
Beside, dont forget that Albanians have "some" weapons that they did not have in 1999. And you know every Albanian house has an arm for their family protection, so try to invade!
And all the talk of re-conciliation and saving lives, shrines etc will die.
You seem to be a war monger of the worst kind. You are forgeting that US Foces are in Kosovo/a and they are not about to leave.
Examples: Germany, Korea, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, etc.
As I have said before, Russia is playing with fire. US is staying cool, but you know that no matter the President, US as a country in the world always works to calm the world.
pre 16 godina
Read and understand the following article: Belgrade’s statements on the use of force in Kosovo are a reaction to Pristina’s move – Russian Foreign Ministry envoy
"There is one objective aspect here: first of all, Kosovar Albanians continue to claim that their independence will soon be recognized and that they might proclaim independence unilaterally. Belgrade officials were forced to respond," the Russian diplomat said.
http://www.interfax.com/17/310848/Interview.aspx
Lets just leave at the fact that Serbia is ramping up it's diplomatic effort to protect it's sovereeignity and the US need to respect that first and foremost!
pre 16 godina
threats have started…
Are we going back to ‘90? ’90 have dragged us (meaning entire Balkans) back to 19 century, thanking to Milosevic’s.
Question is: Who wants back to the ’90ies? Everyone willing to live like we did in past 18 years just go ahead! As I said earlier, these kinds of crisis are helpful only for those in power, more precisely, as proven hundred times before, only for their bank accounts.
So go ahead, as you say “glavom u zid”…
pre 16 godina
unilateral action and the greatest part of kfor (italians, germans and all the small ones) goes home by their own will (as they announced and also b92 quoted).
but the 950 american kfor-soldiers can definitly count on american troops irak or afghanistan (the other us-victories).
the usa and the pristinars are not just politically isolated by the rest of/civilized world, nobody wants to "win" with them wars any longer too.
pre 16 godina
No matter how democratic country it is,Serbia is thinking the same like it did since 1990.
The best solution,North of I bar can get their own independence(they have enough politicians like Oliver Ivanovic and they can have a small state called North Kosovo or whatever they want to be called) or join Serbia,the rest of Kosovo will get their full independence(it wll be called Kosova or Dardania).Like this Serbia will never loose Kosovo and they can concentrate on joining EU and Kosovan Albanians will have a big task ahead but I believe they will manage.
It will be difficult for the people on "wrong" sides but there is no other solution without involving violence.
I know a lot of Kosovan Albanians won't agree with me,the fact is that We don't have a control of North of Ibar same like Serbia doesn't have a control of Kosova!
This is my personal"Win-Win".
Cheerio!
pre 16 godina
I don't think there is anything contradictory when a minister suggests that one option of many is to use military force when it's sovereignity is being attacked. Jeremic states the optimal option and that is that no-one wishes to use force and it is hoped it is not required. It will not of course be required if the US started to respect the soverignity of the Serbian state and kept it's nose out of Serbian internal matters with regards to it's southern Province.
Maybe it is time that Serbia requested complete clarification and an apology from the US regarding remarks made and alludied to by it's representatives defiling Serbia's sovereignity. Serbia needs to beef up it's dipolmatic effort and start demanding respect of it's UN recognised sovereignity - change the US mindset and a solution would be quick in it's formation. However, if the US continue to act so aggresivly and illegally recognised and tried to force a partition of the State of Serbia from it's southern province then the US cannot be surprised if Serbia did react in anyway possible to defend it's sovereignity.
The Serbian Albanians need to comprehend that the US cannot promise something that is not theirs to promise - it was not delivered in 1999, 00, 01,02,03,04,05,06 and definitly not 07 etc etc....
Is it not time to accept the state their in and "conform to it" and make a better Serbia for all it's people - a win-win solution? Which is better Win-Win or Lose-Lose?
pre 16 godina
DSS are doing a great service for to albanians. They are the biggest promoters of independence. If anybody had doubt about whether autonomy would work, Proroković alleviated those doubts.
DSS are getting more radical by the day. I'm glad they fail to saee, that they ar only harming Serbia. The most radical from all of them was Milosevic, and look where it took him and Serbia.
Thank you.
pre 16 godina
DSS are doing a great service for to albanians. They are the biggest promoters of independence. If anybody had doubt about whether autonomy would work, Proroković alleviated those doubts.
DSS are getting more radical by the day. I'm glad they fail to saee, that they ar only harming Serbia. The most radical from all of them was Milosevic, and look where it took him and Serbia.
Thank you.
pre 16 godina
I don't think there is anything contradictory when a minister suggests that one option of many is to use military force when it's sovereignity is being attacked. Jeremic states the optimal option and that is that no-one wishes to use force and it is hoped it is not required. It will not of course be required if the US started to respect the soverignity of the Serbian state and kept it's nose out of Serbian internal matters with regards to it's southern Province.
Maybe it is time that Serbia requested complete clarification and an apology from the US regarding remarks made and alludied to by it's representatives defiling Serbia's sovereignity. Serbia needs to beef up it's dipolmatic effort and start demanding respect of it's UN recognised sovereignity - change the US mindset and a solution would be quick in it's formation. However, if the US continue to act so aggresivly and illegally recognised and tried to force a partition of the State of Serbia from it's southern province then the US cannot be surprised if Serbia did react in anyway possible to defend it's sovereignity.
The Serbian Albanians need to comprehend that the US cannot promise something that is not theirs to promise - it was not delivered in 1999, 00, 01,02,03,04,05,06 and definitly not 07 etc etc....
Is it not time to accept the state their in and "conform to it" and make a better Serbia for all it's people - a win-win solution? Which is better Win-Win or Lose-Lose?
pre 16 godina
Jovan
haha, I can assure you that I only write under the nickname 'nikshala'. whcih stand for my own name Kreshnik Shala.
I do not know who predictor is, and I don't really see the point or the benefit in writing in two nicknames.
Milosevic and the serbian politicans at the time , where doing and saying things that thought would benefit Serbia, but did it?
If its not benefiting albanians, why do you think that international community minus Russia, is discussion all options independence, partition, status-quo, apart from AUTONOMY? becasue they know the type of politicans in Belgrade, and they don't want another 1999 situation.
pre 16 godina
Read and understand the following article: Belgrade’s statements on the use of force in Kosovo are a reaction to Pristina’s move – Russian Foreign Ministry envoy
"There is one objective aspect here: first of all, Kosovar Albanians continue to claim that their independence will soon be recognized and that they might proclaim independence unilaterally. Belgrade officials were forced to respond," the Russian diplomat said.
http://www.interfax.com/17/310848/Interview.aspx
Lets just leave at the fact that Serbia is ramping up it's diplomatic effort to protect it's sovereeignity and the US need to respect that first and foremost!
pre 16 godina
Ofcourse america is now angry when Serbia makes a threat - because they are biased. Oh noooo Serbia made a threat.
But america says nothing to the daily albanian threats???
pre 16 godina
Well said Kosove
The whole point of the last weeks meeting was to ask the both side to refrain from saying inflamatory comments that might jeoperdise the negotianing process, something that both side agree to do.
But Serbia broke this agreement straight away, and it just shows that Serbia is not interested in negotiations because they know that albanians will not agree to their ridicuoul 'autonomy' proposals. And instead all they are trying to do is make the situation worse, and go down on history as the leaders who tried to stop the 'evil' powers stealing Kosovo.
At the end of the day these are just empty threats. They are directed at people like Jovan, Princip, Cvele, Raso, who still live in the 90s. The situation is not like in 1999 when the serbian army was already in Kosovo. If they tried to invade, militarily it would be a whole different story and a disaster, NATO wouldn't even have to use its ground troops, since they could stop the SA with bombs, before it even gets to Kosovo borders.
pre 16 godina
unilateral action and the greatest part of kfor (italians, germans and all the small ones) goes home by their own will (as they announced and also b92 quoted).
but the 950 american kfor-soldiers can definitly count on american troops irak or afghanistan (the other us-victories).
the usa and the pristinars are not just politically isolated by the rest of/civilized world, nobody wants to "win" with them wars any longer too.
pre 16 godina
nikshala, ...or should I say predictor ( both the same person ) :
don´t be that naive... if it would serve the Albanians, they wouldn´t say it, that´s something you can be sure of.
if that is all what you can say, that everything that doesn´t fit into your view on how negotiations are being held, or how they are being prepared... than better stay quiet.
ps: stop pretending to be more than one writer...
pre 16 godina
I predict this Serbian Government as is,sorry to say, but, will not survive Dec 10th, given a fact that nobody knows who really is in charge.
The two partis in charge are split on many issues,like NATO, EU, Kosovo/a, they each are pulling on opposite side.
There is an old say: "when two argue the third one succeeds.
Princip=Kate, you are DREAMING., not only today, but, the last 8 years if you think that SA will go back to Kosovo.
The Kumanovo agreement was done in 1999, so the lives of Serbian asoldiers were to be spared. It does not hold any important value anymore.
And if Serbia wants to go into Kosovo...? Hold your breath, your russian friends will not help you.
Beside, dont forget that Albanians have "some" weapons that they did not have in 1999. And you know every Albanian house has an arm for their family protection, so try to invade!
And all the talk of re-conciliation and saving lives, shrines etc will die.
You seem to be a war monger of the worst kind. You are forgeting that US Foces are in Kosovo/a and they are not about to leave.
Examples: Germany, Korea, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, etc.
As I have said before, Russia is playing with fire. US is staying cool, but you know that no matter the President, US as a country in the world always works to calm the world.
pre 16 godina
I don’t know of any country that would idly sit back and allow their boundaries to be forcibly changed by internal or external forces without responding.
If Serbia is attempting to keep the West guessing about what they see as their options and just how they will respond, they are doing a good job of it. Mixed signals are not a bad thing and Serbia is under no obligation to explain themselves.
pre 16 godina
Jovan,
Reading you post's is like reading a science fiction novel...
"it won´t be a real problem to control that territory militarily. you can believe me, I know what I am writing.
Serbia won´t be alone, there will be european personnel as well, or did you think the EU will let the Albanians attack serbian security forces in order to create instability??? "
NATO is prepared to act if Serb forces try to even get near the border..and i must say it wont be a pleasant for SerbForces..Like UK annalist sad "The serbian troops don't have the moral or the power to stand against KFOR or NATO trops in kosovo".
Good day..
pre 16 godina
Hey Serb Camp, why are you getting so nervous?
I saw the video of the State Department conference. You should have seen it, it's on the web, google it.
" “They have promised, and they have violated the agreement less than a week after”, said Gallach. "
What a surprised, I'm so shocked.
pre 16 godina
Actually, it is the US who are sending mixed signals. On one hand they want Serbia to stop using inflammatory language and threaten military action in case greater albania were unilaterally recognized. On the other hand their whole argument for allowing a greater albania is to 'prevent the the threat of violence', which the albanians have been repeatedly threatening if they don't get their way. The threat of violence is the only card that the albanians have, and the US is happy to play that card. Hypocrites. We can see right through them. If the US were fair and impartial, which they are clearly not, they would tell the albanian side that threats of violence are unacceptable and will be put down by KFOR, with airplanes and bombs if necessary. Instead they use it as their main argument for the illegal and immoral plan to create a greater albania on Serbian soil. This is what happens when your whole foreign policy is based on which lobby groups donate the most money to corrupt government officials, instead of being based on truth and justice. Luckily, it looks like truth and justice are finally prevailing despite the albanian lobby groups well financed campaign of misinformation.
pre 16 godina
No matter how democratic country it is,Serbia is thinking the same like it did since 1990.
The best solution,North of I bar can get their own independence(they have enough politicians like Oliver Ivanovic and they can have a small state called North Kosovo or whatever they want to be called) or join Serbia,the rest of Kosovo will get their full independence(it wll be called Kosova or Dardania).Like this Serbia will never loose Kosovo and they can concentrate on joining EU and Kosovan Albanians will have a big task ahead but I believe they will manage.
It will be difficult for the people on "wrong" sides but there is no other solution without involving violence.
I know a lot of Kosovan Albanians won't agree with me,the fact is that We don't have a control of North of Ibar same like Serbia doesn't have a control of Kosova!
This is my personal"Win-Win".
Cheerio!
pre 16 godina
If the US doesn't respect the Kumanovo agreement and UN resolution 1244 then of course Serbia can enter the province with its army. I dont understand why the americans seem so surprised?!?! Dont they know what they have agreed to?
pre 16 godina
US as a country in the world always works to calm the world.
(lazer, 7. September 2007 12:48)
Of course Iraq war is very calming! LOL!
pre 16 godina
Can someone from the serb camp explain what on earth is the Serb military supposed to do in Kosovo?
Let's say there is no KFOR, and then what? Do you think you can start a new war?
And if you do, what would you achieve? Do you think that you will be able to expel 2M albainans like in 1999, because otherwise I don't see the point of serb army being deployed in Kosovo.
Albert Einstein used to say: (more ore less like this) "Stupidity is when you repeat the same experiment over again and fail the same way over again"
pre 16 godina
No different from the mixed signals being sent by Washington, where one day its says it will work within the structures of international law to solve the Kosovo problem, and another when it says it will recognize a unilateral declaration of independence. Each country has their moderate Jeremic's and their loudmouth Holbrook's. The goal of international geopolitics is to keep the other competitors guessing...
pre 16 godina
Serbian Camp,
very often I here you (referring to the situation Iraq), like USA is not able to control the situation there-Iraq, in meantime that you support the deployment of Serb forces in Kosova. Well, what will be the Serbian chances to control Kosova? Who will send his sons here in Kosova? Will you gentleman’s and ladies enlist yourself for Kosova or rather you will prefer see the someone else’s son bleeding instead you?
pre 16 godina
Serbia did not state any provocative it was merely pointing out in response the inevitable consequence of what the Serbian Albanian leadership say on a daily basis egged on by the US. I posted in comment 7 Botsan-Kharchenko understanding and it is clear that if the US want turn a blind eye to the "provocative" threats of the ethnic Albainan leadership they are bound to get a response from the Serbian side. At least that has cleared the air so hopefully the talks can get on with a reality that there is no alternative to a "negotiated comrpomise" apart from provocations in action rather then words. That said I am surprised at the patience most Serbian ministers have had upto now but the cats out of the bag now so get on with the talks and keep the jaw-jaw going till they find the Win-win!
pre 16 godina
Ahmet Isufi
If you were born in Kosovo you are a Serb (no ifs, buts, ands, ors). You are included in our population and as such are a Serbian with albanian heritage. I dont know how they do it in Albania and if you even consider the womens background when looking at heritage but in Serbia (coutry you are from) we look at it if you were born here. Sorta like US, Canada, Germany, cant be born in New York and say ur not American but are only a New Yorker. It doesnt make sence so nothing else counts. Otherwise you admit its an invasion of our country.
PRINCIP, KATE, ahmet, EVERYONE
THIS IS TRULLY AMAZING
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jWIhQCAuPGDNEruvqQKzy34KkxLQ
pre 16 godina
Nikshala: "I do not know who predictor is, and I don't really see the point or the benefit in writing in two nicknames."
Me neither, or have the time, but apparently I am Princip as well as Kate!! LOL.
pre 16 godina
to Valdet, sorry if it was someone elses comment, but I think it was Valdet.
Valdet,
compare Kosovo the small southern serbian province with the whole of Iraq, go on, take a map and compare!
Kosovo is small, slightly bigger than Rhode Island, USA.
it won´t be a real problem to control that territory militarily. you can believe me, I know what I am writing.
Serbia won´t be alone, there will be european personnel as well, or did you think the EU will let the Albanians attack serbian security forces in order to create instability???
like miri tried to speak in Einstein´s words... EU won´t make the same mistake a second time! Serbia is now a democratic country, and they have interests in Serbia!
that´s what makes your position quite limpy.
but you will realize that yourself, sooner or later.
pre 16 godina
Princip,
Many people (including myself) can guarantee you that Kosovo will soon proclaim its independence, thus this is not a threat but rather a fact.
Can you guarantee that Serb military will enter Kosovo after independence.
I really doubt that, thus don't put these two things in the same perspective.
pre 16 godina
Kosovo is not a Serbian land Kosovo has been occupied by Serbs but it's not Serbian land... by law is still somehow part of Serbia but the law was wrong when they gave kosovo to serbia at london conference..... international community made a mistake by giving kosovo to serbia now they are trying to correct their mistake.........
in 1999 serbia had killed so many people masacred many of them and I'm from Reqak which the big massacre took place And let me tell you one thing Serbian army will never enter kosovo.
go read books when milosevic took power how he took the land from albanian people and give it to serbs just to make sure there was a serbian in kosovo..........
.......when human are in peace they look for war, when they are in war they look toward the peace..........
pre 16 godina
threats have started…
Are we going back to ‘90? ’90 have dragged us (meaning entire Balkans) back to 19 century, thanking to Milosevic’s.
Question is: Who wants back to the ’90ies? Everyone willing to live like we did in past 18 years just go ahead! As I said earlier, these kinds of crisis are helpful only for those in power, more precisely, as proven hundred times before, only for their bank accounts.
So go ahead, as you say “glavom u zid”…
pre 16 godina
This circus of failed Serbian politicians needs proper Serbian Radicals so the world gets the proper picture of the Serbian politicians once again. Actually this kind of statements are proving why NATO had to intervene. This tells a lot how much are the these guys prepared to live with Kosova Albanians together. Also, it looks like now we are entering the phase when the rift between the Serbian political parties is growing. I cant wait to see further developments in Serbian political scene.
On the other hand K-Albanians are prepared to take their fate in their hands and declare the Independence and see except USA and UK who else is prepared to recognize it. According to the world diplomats Ahtisari plan is recognized as the only solution accepted for EU countries. So guess what, this plan Kosova government will adopt to start with even though I personally oppose it since it gives to much to a little minority.
Princip, by calling someone Serbian Albanian you are undervaluing your intelligence and knowledge, telling everyone that you have no knowledge of the ethnicities in Balkans and unfit for productive discussion. This to me sounds like posting in a very agitated state of mind. However, this does not matter at all since you are not going to call this name for very long.
I must admit that creating a state from scratch is not proving to be easy even in your own place. I guess that most of you do not understand this that’s why you are so much against it
pre 16 godina
So Marshal Law now has a woldwide ban, when a country's citizens start to declare their own rules and ignores the laws set forth by their government? hmmm was not aware.
pre 16 godina
B92 this is no different then what our politicans are saying. Why are my comments that are basically mirroring those of some of our elected officials being sensored? As for me claiming that 10000 dead albans were all KLA its to properly balance the alban claims that they were all civilians. Without mentioning that they were armed. Its very unfair to me that in a dire time such as this, we are being silenced by our own media. Most if not all people I know agree with me that Serbia will be forced to act. So please post this as it is a reply to a couple of instigating posts by several albans.
pre 16 godina
Perhaps the US needs to explain it's ACTIONS better to the world, for action speaks louder than words. How about these for starters: Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosovo, Bosnia, Greneda, Panama, Somalia, Sudan, Libya, Phillipines. Just as always, do as I say not as I do, for rules which apply to the world certainly don't match to the US.
pre 16 godina
The fact of the amtter is that b92 did edit my coment severaly and I never got my chance to explain to Albanian serbs the whole story, Sorry guys.
pre 16 godina
Wonderful news. DSS is contributing for the indipendence of Kosova. Prorokovic for sure merits a medal from the President Sejdiu. Go ahead DSS, your work is to be rewarded soon with the statehood of Kosova.
pre 16 godina
Princip,there is no such thing as Serbian Albanian. You should know this!!!!
pre 16 godina
Some serb camp posters are using deragotory language and you still post them. Once and for all, when you say serbian albanians that means the child that was born had a serbian father and albanian mother. So, please all of you uneducted serb camp get rid of that notion, because there is no such thing.
pre 16 godina
But america says nothing to the daily albanian threats???
(Ratko, 7. September 2007 15:11)
Please do provide some links.
The only statement made from our goverment (Kosova Government) is that they will proclaim independence. That is not a threat but a diplomatic action which seeks world recognition.
threat (thrìt) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment.
pre 16 godina
What's amazing about that link Cvele?
Don't you get it?
People have to go on with their everyday life after all. At the moment when the status of Kosovo is disputed people have needs to travel abroad. It says in the article that UNMIK passports are recognized only in 40 countries.
Just so you can get it let me spell it out for you.
THIS IS THE REASON WHY KOSOVO STATUS NEEDS TO BE RESOLVED ASAP. THIS IS THE REASON KOSOVO NEED TO BE INDEPENDENT ASAP.
PS: Don't make fun of the suffering of people.
pre 16 godina
kate, at least we angree on something
pre 16 godina
Mospyt,
there are thousands getting their Serbian passports http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/administration/afp-news.html?id=070907141247.yxqrbta3&cat=null
pre 16 godina
DimTuc,
I did search the resources that were available to me and although I found no concrete list of Mosques damaged or destroyed in Kosovo during the 98-99 conflict I found two articles claiming that your figure was true. One was from a Western prosecutation witness from the Hague claiming that indeed over 200 Mosques were damaged or destroyed. The only problem is I can't find any lists or pictures or any other kind of substantial evidence. If you could forward me anything it would be great. If it indeed happened then shame on those commited the acts. Next 1650 Mosques afflicted during the Bosnia war, also could not find any information on this, please refer me to the right place. But since you are bringing up the past lets bring it up openly. I won't even begin to write about the suffering of the Serb and Greek and others during Ottoman rule. The Serb nation was inflicted with such severe oppression and crime that would be to gruesome to write about here but you can read very carefully anywhere about the Turks and their ways. So lets just get this straight for 500 years Serbs were subjected to the most grotesque crimes and treatment. Then lets move onto to WWI where Albanians fought with those who were against Freedom and justice and they lost and the German race and Hungarians lost together with the Croats and the Bosniaks. During that war the Serbs were almost completely erased from the world. WWII Albanians lost again along with the Nazi's, the Bosniaks and the Ustasa. You all lost and in that loss you destroyed most of Serbia and anything Serbian. Please don't play that game because history is clear Serbs have won over oppression and in injustice in both World wars and the amount of destruction on their identity, sacrifice, culture, places of worship was more than any history book could offer. But they WON, freedom won.
And in the wars of the 1990's Serbia never wanted. You still don't get that Croatia was planning independence long ago anybody who lived in that area in the 20th century knew it was every Croatian's dying wish to have independence just like long before you and Nikshala were born Albanians were hoping the same. Do you realize that there are almost no Serbs in Croatia, that is like now as Kosovo being 10% of Serbia's population and most being Albanian that they were almost all gone from Kosovo - only 3% left...most in the world enjoy hearing that Serbia is now home to 100000's of refugees. I don't know anything about 1650 Mosques destroyed in the war I do know that on various occasions there could have been an end to that war an Izetbegovic who twice removed his signature from the peace treaties and instead followed the creed of his Islamic Declaration of the 70's and went forward with his plan to centralize Bosnia under Islamic rule with or without force.
pre 16 godina
If UN resolution 1244 and the Kumanovo military technical agreement is off then the serb army can enter Kosovo legally. If they do it is another matter but they can do it without breaching the law. It is not a threat but simple logic. Some police and army can return even under UN resolution 1244. Does it mean the albanians consider the UN resolution 1244 being a threat aswell?
pre 16 godina
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
The EU, UN & US is trying to bully around Serbia over the status of KosovO. One very "large" item that all these superpowers fail to realize is that KosovO is still a geographic part of Serbia.
State Department spokesman Tom Casey said, "We have two contradictory statements out there by two officials from the government," and added threats of military force were "unhelpful." President bush/the US and yourself included Mr. Casey haven't made any contradictory statements? I highly doubt that.
Any pro-albanian posters - if you're so gun-ho on the US backing you up - just look at all the wonderful things they're doing in the middle east.
pre 16 godina
ahmet isufi says…” The fact of the amtter is that b92 did edit my coment severaly and I never got my chance to explain to Albanian serbs the whole story.”.
The fact of the matter is that frequently I can’t understand your comments because the grammar and spelling is severely lacking in accuracy. Serbs or anyone else reading them can't get the full story.
pre 16 godina
I am glad to see this Prorokovic type statements. The more of it the better! The whole world will realize that without Milosevic Serbia is still the same as in the nineties, still a real danger to the lifes and well-being of the K-Albanians. So the only long awaited solution is the independence of Kosovo, pardon Kosova.
pre 16 godina
Rocky said "
Serbs have won over oppression and in injustice in both World wars and the amount of destruction on their identity, sacrifice, culture, places of worship was more than any history book could offer. But they WON, freedom won. "
That's excactly what Albainans wont the oldest thing the humanity ever asked the basis of civilization -- its freedom.
I think I did explain to you earlier that there was a war In Kosovo/a and people were massacred houses burned and entire world saw it (except few of you !!!!)
Here few links to answer your question on burnings http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_09/uk/signe.htm
2. http://www.sacred-sites.org/preservation/kosovo.html.
3. http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kosovo98/photo/pics899/kos899g.htm
When you said earlier that the war was a lie let me quote The Kosovo war was unique in the history of international conflict, in that human-rights and forensics teams entered the territory on the heels of the arriving KFOR troops. Between June and October 1999, the International Criminal Tribunal oversaw exhumations from some 175 graves of the 525 gravesites they said had been marked off for investigation. (How many might remain undiscovered, given the Tribunal's limited resources and Serb efforts to cover up the crimes, is not known.) Some two thousand bodies -- 2,108, to be precise -- had been exhumed when the Tribunal issued its preliminary report in November 1999. Chief prosecutor Carla del Ponte also spoke of widespread evidence of tampering with the gravesites and destruction of evidence -- standard Serb procedure throughout the Balkans wars." link... http://www.gendercide.org/case_kosovo.html
I tried to attach the most independet media as possible in hope that at least you will have some respect for all those surviving families (whether being Albanian,Serbian or other)
thank you
pre 16 godina
Hi Rocky
Benny has provided a couple of links re the 200 or so mosques destroyed in Kosovo/a by the Serbian army.
Re the Bosnia figures, they come from the most thorough research to date on the Bosnia war, carried out by the Research and Documentation Centre, a team including Bosnian serbs, Croats, Muslims and international experts.
Quote:
" According to the results of our investigations 917 sacral complexes belonging to the Islamic Community were totally destroyed, while 731 were lightly or heavily damaged; 311 structures of Catholic Community were destroyed or damaged, as well as 34 belonging to the Orthodox Community and 7 to Jewish Community."
http://www.idc.org.ba/aboutus.html
As for the rest of your post, we could get into a big argument but its been done before. Bringing up the Ottoman empire to try to whitewash what the Serbian regime did to others in the 1990s is truly absurd. I know Serbian propaganda of the 1980s and 1990s conflated living and breathing Bosnian Muslim and Kosovar Albanian men, women and children with the Ottoman rulers of centuries ago, but that awful medievalist propaganda is not what you expect intelligent people to be regurgiating now. As for the rest of your 'history' lesson re WWI, WWII, the causes of the Balkan wars of the 1990s etc, I reject pretty much every "fact" you've put forward but I'm not gonna go into it all just at the moment. Just you should have a think before continually telling us all how "amazed" you are that people here are expressing views different to your own, have a think about how ludicrous it is to claim Serbia never wanted the wars in the 1990s yet Serbia just happened to the be state waging those wars, doing the vast bulk of the killing, the vast bulk of the destruction, the vast bulk of the ethnic cleansing etc, but then they cry wolf when at the *end* of such conflicts (ie, Krajina 1995) they get the same medicine. You see, it was quite OK when the Serbian (still called "Yugoslav") army drove 100s of 1000s of Croats from their homes in a third of Croatia in 1991 while destroying the country, but it is definitely not OK when the Croat army does the same in reverse in 1995. I'm certanly not justifying the second, just pointing to the absurdity of the Serb nationalist tendency to justify the first action by pointing to the reaction several years later.
pre 16 godina
Hi DimTuc,
I read through all links posted by Benny and yourself and I am halfway satisfied. The Kosovo list it does include the number but I would have liked to have seen dates, locations, more hard evidence as I have seen with many sites detailing Christian Holy sites damaged. Still, it is awful to hear and I feel remorse for all that went on. As for Bosnia the link you provided was kind of the same not really detailed enough to satisfy me but still a raw look into the damage that went on in the war. So thanks for to Benny and you for those.
I wasn't bringing in the Ottomon rule to whitewash anything Serbian. Its just that my first post was about churches in Kosovo being afflicted than you wrote back answering and furter using Bosnia as an example that is why I went into the past. In no way does the Ottoman oppression take the place of any crime a Serbian in uniform carried out...but it is something to take notice of why? Because Albanians are constantly screaming about the injustices they suffered in 78 days as their greatest argument to have an independent state...wow I can't imagine if they massacred by the Ustase and SS divisions and ruined for 500 years with turks and then in 1995 totally pushed out of Kosovo forever, what then would you say if 78 days was the greatest suffering of the Albanian people? one day that will be the distant past/ but don't you see if you can say that about Kosovo - Serbs can say the same. Krajina Serbs were almost totally killed off in the first WWI that is a fact along with any kind of Serb and then in the next WW the same. YOu can dispute that all you want, but there are countless graves to visit if you would like all through Serbian areas reminding us of the truth. And you can dispute facts but the truth is Serbia WON both wars, you can't dispute that, General Mihajlovic was given the highest honor by America. These are facts nothing to be disputed, the number dead will always be disputed but one innocent victim in the face of Nazi Germany, Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo Albanians were one too many. The fact is Croats, Bosniaks, K-Albanians, have always fought against freedom and with the death machine of the Germans, that is a fact...and you lost every time. The wars of the 90's were not fought by Serbia except the Kosovo war. Bosnia, Serbia no matter how much you want to believe did not fight, first it was Vojska Yugoslavia not Vojska Serbia and if Serbia was to fight the war would be over in months cause SErbia as Yugoslavia at that time was militarly stronger than all other ex-yugos. Really in Krajina it was a bunch of young kids fighting, poor kids from the farm, you don't realize that Serbs from Croatia wanted the same thing as you, Tudman stripped their rights as a people in 1991 before the war started, they wanted the same as K-Albanians. Bosnian Serbs also are not Islamic and didn't want to live under Isalm, the war was not started by Serbia which was Yugoslavia at the time. The war was started when Izetbegovic pushed to control the whole of Bosnia under Islam, when Christianity was and still is the majority. That war was complicated and a lot had to do with the premature recognition of states which was illegal under the constitution without a referendum, the ex states triggered that war, i'm sorry it wasnot Serbia. At that time Serbs did not even say they were Serbs, they were always Yugoslavs, I know that 100%. Tito never allowed Serbs their identities and convinced them they were Yugoslavs meanwhile everyone else even the montenegrins were allowed to call themselves their own. So...please Serbia did not want the Kosovo war or the 90's wars, Rambuliet was a gun to their head and Bosnia and Croatia was planned long ago.
pre 16 godina
Well,
I believe that all this comments are result of lack of information. Everybody spells out 1244 and international law. All the laws in Kosovo are in accordance with 1244 that is laws dealing with common things. Other things more sensitive had to go through New York, such as privatisation - Serbia opposed to that, it tried to stop, the issue was sent to New York, and the green light was given in accordance with 1244 - same with other issues including the status. Every thing is being done in accordance with 1244, which in addition to the text, has something between the lines. Otherwise, if UN HQ in New York would believe that the meaning of 1244, expressed between the lines, is that Kosovo would remain part of Serbia than they would never approve the sale of "Serbian enterprises, Serbian land, or anything". Same procedure will be used for its status, New York will say in accordance with 1244 we decided to accept the unsaid compromise between the parties and hence Kosovo will be like we meant it to be on 24 march 1999.
By the way, I cannot find any Kosovo strategic document prepared by internationals or with their assistance (as it happened from 1999) which doesn't foresee independence, and all such documents are build on such ground.
pre 16 godina
lazer,
Why isn't Serbia allowed to protect its territorial integrety.
Kosovo is part of Serbia.
You may not like that, but it is the case.
And if the Northern part of Kosovo wants to stay with Serbia are Kosovar troops then allowed to go in?
May Kosovo protect its territorial integrety? And Serbia may not?
STRANGE WORLD!
pre 16 godina
Benny,
First thanks for the links, I read through them and the unesco site was most helpful, it partly satisfied me and the reason I say partly is because I can't find an exact list of Mosque's damaged, their locations and photographs, where as there are dozens of websites where I see the actual damage to Christian sites. Still, it was informative. And I never said that the war in Kosovo was a lie. I don't know where you got the idea from. Definitely it was not. And I know that both people suffered during the 78 days. 2,108 bodies found I know that figure it is reported throughout honest media...but it was not all Albanians - you know that. I understand an Albanians drive for freedom. I am just sorry that it is a place where Albanians cant claim their own. If it were Albanians that Kosovo was always home to then why weren't they fighting the Serbs in 1389...it was the Serbs fighting the Turks for Kosovo...where were the Albanians if it was theirs they would have been fighting no doubt. So, it is just hard to believe that Kosovo is anything but Serbian. Serbs too wanted freedom and that is why they fought against the Ottomans, Germany, Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia during the big wars and the Serbs won both times. The Kosovo war didn't have to happen do you really think little Serbia wanted to fight NATO - 18+ countries of the strongest in the world? But the fact is every Serb sees Kosovo as their Fatherland, and Albanians see Kosovo as home too...what will happen. I don't know...what I do know is Albanians live freely throughtout Serbia proper, no one bothers them, they live very free and with quality. We cannot say the same about a Serb living in Zagreb, or Ljubljana, Pristina, Tuzla, or anywhere else in the balkans. Why? I dont know but I do know that Croats, Muslims, many Albanians have hated Serbs long before the 1990's. Everybody knows that...and maybe it had something to do with the fact that all of these ethnic groups have hated Serbs for decades because they all lost in every big war.
pre 16 godina
I am sorry but 1244 was meant to be: Kosovo within Serbia.
We all know that.
That's what the NATO won for the Kosovars. Not more, not less.
Kosovo=1244
Kosovo=province
Kosovo=Serbia
We all know that. Come on, guys, don't cheat! Apply the rules.'
(I am NOT from Serbia, not even from the Balkans)
pre 16 godina
DSS are doing a great service for to albanians. They are the biggest promoters of independence. If anybody had doubt about whether autonomy would work, Proroković alleviated those doubts.
DSS are getting more radical by the day. I'm glad they fail to saee, that they ar only harming Serbia. The most radical from all of them was Milosevic, and look where it took him and Serbia.
Thank you.
pre 16 godina
I predict this Serbian Government as is,sorry to say, but, will not survive Dec 10th, given a fact that nobody knows who really is in charge.
The two partis in charge are split on many issues,like NATO, EU, Kosovo/a, they each are pulling on opposite side.
There is an old say: "when two argue the third one succeeds.
Princip=Kate, you are DREAMING., not only today, but, the last 8 years if you think that SA will go back to Kosovo.
The Kumanovo agreement was done in 1999, so the lives of Serbian asoldiers were to be spared. It does not hold any important value anymore.
And if Serbia wants to go into Kosovo...? Hold your breath, your russian friends will not help you.
Beside, dont forget that Albanians have "some" weapons that they did not have in 1999. And you know every Albanian house has an arm for their family protection, so try to invade!
And all the talk of re-conciliation and saving lives, shrines etc will die.
You seem to be a war monger of the worst kind. You are forgeting that US Foces are in Kosovo/a and they are not about to leave.
Examples: Germany, Korea, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, etc.
As I have said before, Russia is playing with fire. US is staying cool, but you know that no matter the President, US as a country in the world always works to calm the world.
pre 16 godina
Can someone from the serb camp explain what on earth is the Serb military supposed to do in Kosovo?
Let's say there is no KFOR, and then what? Do you think you can start a new war?
And if you do, what would you achieve? Do you think that you will be able to expel 2M albainans like in 1999, because otherwise I don't see the point of serb army being deployed in Kosovo.
Albert Einstein used to say: (more ore less like this) "Stupidity is when you repeat the same experiment over again and fail the same way over again"
pre 16 godina
This circus of failed Serbian politicians needs proper Serbian Radicals so the world gets the proper picture of the Serbian politicians once again. Actually this kind of statements are proving why NATO had to intervene. This tells a lot how much are the these guys prepared to live with Kosova Albanians together. Also, it looks like now we are entering the phase when the rift between the Serbian political parties is growing. I cant wait to see further developments in Serbian political scene.
On the other hand K-Albanians are prepared to take their fate in their hands and declare the Independence and see except USA and UK who else is prepared to recognize it. According to the world diplomats Ahtisari plan is recognized as the only solution accepted for EU countries. So guess what, this plan Kosova government will adopt to start with even though I personally oppose it since it gives to much to a little minority.
Princip, by calling someone Serbian Albanian you are undervaluing your intelligence and knowledge, telling everyone that you have no knowledge of the ethnicities in Balkans and unfit for productive discussion. This to me sounds like posting in a very agitated state of mind. However, this does not matter at all since you are not going to call this name for very long.
I must admit that creating a state from scratch is not proving to be easy even in your own place. I guess that most of you do not understand this that’s why you are so much against it
pre 16 godina
Kosovo is not a Serbian land Kosovo has been occupied by Serbs but it's not Serbian land... by law is still somehow part of Serbia but the law was wrong when they gave kosovo to serbia at london conference..... international community made a mistake by giving kosovo to serbia now they are trying to correct their mistake.........
in 1999 serbia had killed so many people masacred many of them and I'm from Reqak which the big massacre took place And let me tell you one thing Serbian army will never enter kosovo.
go read books when milosevic took power how he took the land from albanian people and give it to serbs just to make sure there was a serbian in kosovo..........
.......when human are in peace they look for war, when they are in war they look toward the peace..........
pre 16 godina
I don't think there is anything contradictory when a minister suggests that one option of many is to use military force when it's sovereignity is being attacked. Jeremic states the optimal option and that is that no-one wishes to use force and it is hoped it is not required. It will not of course be required if the US started to respect the soverignity of the Serbian state and kept it's nose out of Serbian internal matters with regards to it's southern Province.
Maybe it is time that Serbia requested complete clarification and an apology from the US regarding remarks made and alludied to by it's representatives defiling Serbia's sovereignity. Serbia needs to beef up it's dipolmatic effort and start demanding respect of it's UN recognised sovereignity - change the US mindset and a solution would be quick in it's formation. However, if the US continue to act so aggresivly and illegally recognised and tried to force a partition of the State of Serbia from it's southern province then the US cannot be surprised if Serbia did react in anyway possible to defend it's sovereignity.
The Serbian Albanians need to comprehend that the US cannot promise something that is not theirs to promise - it was not delivered in 1999, 00, 01,02,03,04,05,06 and definitly not 07 etc etc....
Is it not time to accept the state their in and "conform to it" and make a better Serbia for all it's people - a win-win solution? Which is better Win-Win or Lose-Lose?
pre 16 godina
No matter how democratic country it is,Serbia is thinking the same like it did since 1990.
The best solution,North of I bar can get their own independence(they have enough politicians like Oliver Ivanovic and they can have a small state called North Kosovo or whatever they want to be called) or join Serbia,the rest of Kosovo will get their full independence(it wll be called Kosova or Dardania).Like this Serbia will never loose Kosovo and they can concentrate on joining EU and Kosovan Albanians will have a big task ahead but I believe they will manage.
It will be difficult for the people on "wrong" sides but there is no other solution without involving violence.
I know a lot of Kosovan Albanians won't agree with me,the fact is that We don't have a control of North of Ibar same like Serbia doesn't have a control of Kosova!
This is my personal"Win-Win".
Cheerio!
pre 16 godina
Jovan
haha, I can assure you that I only write under the nickname 'nikshala'. whcih stand for my own name Kreshnik Shala.
I do not know who predictor is, and I don't really see the point or the benefit in writing in two nicknames.
Milosevic and the serbian politicans at the time , where doing and saying things that thought would benefit Serbia, but did it?
If its not benefiting albanians, why do you think that international community minus Russia, is discussion all options independence, partition, status-quo, apart from AUTONOMY? becasue they know the type of politicans in Belgrade, and they don't want another 1999 situation.
pre 16 godina
Hey Serb Camp, why are you getting so nervous?
I saw the video of the State Department conference. You should have seen it, it's on the web, google it.
" “They have promised, and they have violated the agreement less than a week after”, said Gallach. "
What a surprised, I'm so shocked.
pre 16 godina
Wonderful news. DSS is contributing for the indipendence of Kosova. Prorokovic for sure merits a medal from the President Sejdiu. Go ahead DSS, your work is to be rewarded soon with the statehood of Kosova.
pre 16 godina
Well said Kosove
The whole point of the last weeks meeting was to ask the both side to refrain from saying inflamatory comments that might jeoperdise the negotianing process, something that both side agree to do.
But Serbia broke this agreement straight away, and it just shows that Serbia is not interested in negotiations because they know that albanians will not agree to their ridicuoul 'autonomy' proposals. And instead all they are trying to do is make the situation worse, and go down on history as the leaders who tried to stop the 'evil' powers stealing Kosovo.
At the end of the day these are just empty threats. They are directed at people like Jovan, Princip, Cvele, Raso, who still live in the 90s. The situation is not like in 1999 when the serbian army was already in Kosovo. If they tried to invade, militarily it would be a whole different story and a disaster, NATO wouldn't even have to use its ground troops, since they could stop the SA with bombs, before it even gets to Kosovo borders.
pre 16 godina
Princip,there is no such thing as Serbian Albanian. You should know this!!!!
pre 16 godina
Princip,
Many people (including myself) can guarantee you that Kosovo will soon proclaim its independence, thus this is not a threat but rather a fact.
Can you guarantee that Serb military will enter Kosovo after independence.
I really doubt that, thus don't put these two things in the same perspective.
pre 16 godina
unilateral action and the greatest part of kfor (italians, germans and all the small ones) goes home by their own will (as they announced and also b92 quoted).
but the 950 american kfor-soldiers can definitly count on american troops irak or afghanistan (the other us-victories).
the usa and the pristinars are not just politically isolated by the rest of/civilized world, nobody wants to "win" with them wars any longer too.
pre 16 godina
Read and understand the following article: Belgrade’s statements on the use of force in Kosovo are a reaction to Pristina’s move – Russian Foreign Ministry envoy
"There is one objective aspect here: first of all, Kosovar Albanians continue to claim that their independence will soon be recognized and that they might proclaim independence unilaterally. Belgrade officials were forced to respond," the Russian diplomat said.
http://www.interfax.com/17/310848/Interview.aspx
Lets just leave at the fact that Serbia is ramping up it's diplomatic effort to protect it's sovereeignity and the US need to respect that first and foremost!
pre 16 godina
Serbian Camp,
very often I here you (referring to the situation Iraq), like USA is not able to control the situation there-Iraq, in meantime that you support the deployment of Serb forces in Kosova. Well, what will be the Serbian chances to control Kosova? Who will send his sons here in Kosova? Will you gentleman’s and ladies enlist yourself for Kosova or rather you will prefer see the someone else’s son bleeding instead you?
pre 16 godina
Actually, it is the US who are sending mixed signals. On one hand they want Serbia to stop using inflammatory language and threaten military action in case greater albania were unilaterally recognized. On the other hand their whole argument for allowing a greater albania is to 'prevent the the threat of violence', which the albanians have been repeatedly threatening if they don't get their way. The threat of violence is the only card that the albanians have, and the US is happy to play that card. Hypocrites. We can see right through them. If the US were fair and impartial, which they are clearly not, they would tell the albanian side that threats of violence are unacceptable and will be put down by KFOR, with airplanes and bombs if necessary. Instead they use it as their main argument for the illegal and immoral plan to create a greater albania on Serbian soil. This is what happens when your whole foreign policy is based on which lobby groups donate the most money to corrupt government officials, instead of being based on truth and justice. Luckily, it looks like truth and justice are finally prevailing despite the albanian lobby groups well financed campaign of misinformation.
pre 16 godina
B92 this is no different then what our politicans are saying. Why are my comments that are basically mirroring those of some of our elected officials being sensored? As for me claiming that 10000 dead albans were all KLA its to properly balance the alban claims that they were all civilians. Without mentioning that they were armed. Its very unfair to me that in a dire time such as this, we are being silenced by our own media. Most if not all people I know agree with me that Serbia will be forced to act. So please post this as it is a reply to a couple of instigating posts by several albans.
pre 16 godina
Some serb camp posters are using deragotory language and you still post them. Once and for all, when you say serbian albanians that means the child that was born had a serbian father and albanian mother. So, please all of you uneducted serb camp get rid of that notion, because there is no such thing.
pre 16 godina
Ahmet Isufi
If you were born in Kosovo you are a Serb (no ifs, buts, ands, ors). You are included in our population and as such are a Serbian with albanian heritage. I dont know how they do it in Albania and if you even consider the womens background when looking at heritage but in Serbia (coutry you are from) we look at it if you were born here. Sorta like US, Canada, Germany, cant be born in New York and say ur not American but are only a New Yorker. It doesnt make sence so nothing else counts. Otherwise you admit its an invasion of our country.
PRINCIP, KATE, ahmet, EVERYONE
THIS IS TRULLY AMAZING
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jWIhQCAuPGDNEruvqQKzy34KkxLQ
pre 16 godina
But america says nothing to the daily albanian threats???
(Ratko, 7. September 2007 15:11)
Please do provide some links.
The only statement made from our goverment (Kosova Government) is that they will proclaim independence. That is not a threat but a diplomatic action which seeks world recognition.
threat (thrìt) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment.
pre 16 godina
Jovan,
Reading you post's is like reading a science fiction novel...
"it won´t be a real problem to control that territory militarily. you can believe me, I know what I am writing.
Serbia won´t be alone, there will be european personnel as well, or did you think the EU will let the Albanians attack serbian security forces in order to create instability??? "
NATO is prepared to act if Serb forces try to even get near the border..and i must say it wont be a pleasant for SerbForces..Like UK annalist sad "The serbian troops don't have the moral or the power to stand against KFOR or NATO trops in kosovo".
Good day..
pre 16 godina
The fact of the amtter is that b92 did edit my coment severaly and I never got my chance to explain to Albanian serbs the whole story, Sorry guys.
pre 16 godina
I am glad to see this Prorokovic type statements. The more of it the better! The whole world will realize that without Milosevic Serbia is still the same as in the nineties, still a real danger to the lifes and well-being of the K-Albanians. So the only long awaited solution is the independence of Kosovo, pardon Kosova.
pre 16 godina
Hi Rocky
Benny has provided a couple of links re the 200 or so mosques destroyed in Kosovo/a by the Serbian army.
Re the Bosnia figures, they come from the most thorough research to date on the Bosnia war, carried out by the Research and Documentation Centre, a team including Bosnian serbs, Croats, Muslims and international experts.
Quote:
" According to the results of our investigations 917 sacral complexes belonging to the Islamic Community were totally destroyed, while 731 were lightly or heavily damaged; 311 structures of Catholic Community were destroyed or damaged, as well as 34 belonging to the Orthodox Community and 7 to Jewish Community."
http://www.idc.org.ba/aboutus.html
As for the rest of your post, we could get into a big argument but its been done before. Bringing up the Ottoman empire to try to whitewash what the Serbian regime did to others in the 1990s is truly absurd. I know Serbian propaganda of the 1980s and 1990s conflated living and breathing Bosnian Muslim and Kosovar Albanian men, women and children with the Ottoman rulers of centuries ago, but that awful medievalist propaganda is not what you expect intelligent people to be regurgiating now. As for the rest of your 'history' lesson re WWI, WWII, the causes of the Balkan wars of the 1990s etc, I reject pretty much every "fact" you've put forward but I'm not gonna go into it all just at the moment. Just you should have a think before continually telling us all how "amazed" you are that people here are expressing views different to your own, have a think about how ludicrous it is to claim Serbia never wanted the wars in the 1990s yet Serbia just happened to the be state waging those wars, doing the vast bulk of the killing, the vast bulk of the destruction, the vast bulk of the ethnic cleansing etc, but then they cry wolf when at the *end* of such conflicts (ie, Krajina 1995) they get the same medicine. You see, it was quite OK when the Serbian (still called "Yugoslav") army drove 100s of 1000s of Croats from their homes in a third of Croatia in 1991 while destroying the country, but it is definitely not OK when the Croat army does the same in reverse in 1995. I'm certanly not justifying the second, just pointing to the absurdity of the Serb nationalist tendency to justify the first action by pointing to the reaction several years later.
pre 16 godina
threats have started…
Are we going back to ‘90? ’90 have dragged us (meaning entire Balkans) back to 19 century, thanking to Milosevic’s.
Question is: Who wants back to the ’90ies? Everyone willing to live like we did in past 18 years just go ahead! As I said earlier, these kinds of crisis are helpful only for those in power, more precisely, as proven hundred times before, only for their bank accounts.
So go ahead, as you say “glavom u zid”…
pre 16 godina
nikshala, ...or should I say predictor ( both the same person ) :
don´t be that naive... if it would serve the Albanians, they wouldn´t say it, that´s something you can be sure of.
if that is all what you can say, that everything that doesn´t fit into your view on how negotiations are being held, or how they are being prepared... than better stay quiet.
ps: stop pretending to be more than one writer...
pre 16 godina
If the US doesn't respect the Kumanovo agreement and UN resolution 1244 then of course Serbia can enter the province with its army. I dont understand why the americans seem so surprised?!?! Dont they know what they have agreed to?
pre 16 godina
US as a country in the world always works to calm the world.
(lazer, 7. September 2007 12:48)
Of course Iraq war is very calming! LOL!
pre 16 godina
Ofcourse america is now angry when Serbia makes a threat - because they are biased. Oh noooo Serbia made a threat.
But america says nothing to the daily albanian threats???
pre 16 godina
No different from the mixed signals being sent by Washington, where one day its says it will work within the structures of international law to solve the Kosovo problem, and another when it says it will recognize a unilateral declaration of independence. Each country has their moderate Jeremic's and their loudmouth Holbrook's. The goal of international geopolitics is to keep the other competitors guessing...
pre 16 godina
Nikshala: "I do not know who predictor is, and I don't really see the point or the benefit in writing in two nicknames."
Me neither, or have the time, but apparently I am Princip as well as Kate!! LOL.
pre 16 godina
So Marshal Law now has a woldwide ban, when a country's citizens start to declare their own rules and ignores the laws set forth by their government? hmmm was not aware.
pre 16 godina
kate, at least we angree on something
pre 16 godina
Serbia did not state any provocative it was merely pointing out in response the inevitable consequence of what the Serbian Albanian leadership say on a daily basis egged on by the US. I posted in comment 7 Botsan-Kharchenko understanding and it is clear that if the US want turn a blind eye to the "provocative" threats of the ethnic Albainan leadership they are bound to get a response from the Serbian side. At least that has cleared the air so hopefully the talks can get on with a reality that there is no alternative to a "negotiated comrpomise" apart from provocations in action rather then words. That said I am surprised at the patience most Serbian ministers have had upto now but the cats out of the bag now so get on with the talks and keep the jaw-jaw going till they find the Win-win!
pre 16 godina
I don’t know of any country that would idly sit back and allow their boundaries to be forcibly changed by internal or external forces without responding.
If Serbia is attempting to keep the West guessing about what they see as their options and just how they will respond, they are doing a good job of it. Mixed signals are not a bad thing and Serbia is under no obligation to explain themselves.
pre 16 godina
to Valdet, sorry if it was someone elses comment, but I think it was Valdet.
Valdet,
compare Kosovo the small southern serbian province with the whole of Iraq, go on, take a map and compare!
Kosovo is small, slightly bigger than Rhode Island, USA.
it won´t be a real problem to control that territory militarily. you can believe me, I know what I am writing.
Serbia won´t be alone, there will be european personnel as well, or did you think the EU will let the Albanians attack serbian security forces in order to create instability???
like miri tried to speak in Einstein´s words... EU won´t make the same mistake a second time! Serbia is now a democratic country, and they have interests in Serbia!
that´s what makes your position quite limpy.
but you will realize that yourself, sooner or later.
pre 16 godina
Mospyt,
there are thousands getting their Serbian passports http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/administration/afp-news.html?id=070907141247.yxqrbta3&cat=null
pre 16 godina
Perhaps the US needs to explain it's ACTIONS better to the world, for action speaks louder than words. How about these for starters: Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosovo, Bosnia, Greneda, Panama, Somalia, Sudan, Libya, Phillipines. Just as always, do as I say not as I do, for rules which apply to the world certainly don't match to the US.
pre 16 godina
DimTuc,
I did search the resources that were available to me and although I found no concrete list of Mosques damaged or destroyed in Kosovo during the 98-99 conflict I found two articles claiming that your figure was true. One was from a Western prosecutation witness from the Hague claiming that indeed over 200 Mosques were damaged or destroyed. The only problem is I can't find any lists or pictures or any other kind of substantial evidence. If you could forward me anything it would be great. If it indeed happened then shame on those commited the acts. Next 1650 Mosques afflicted during the Bosnia war, also could not find any information on this, please refer me to the right place. But since you are bringing up the past lets bring it up openly. I won't even begin to write about the suffering of the Serb and Greek and others during Ottoman rule. The Serb nation was inflicted with such severe oppression and crime that would be to gruesome to write about here but you can read very carefully anywhere about the Turks and their ways. So lets just get this straight for 500 years Serbs were subjected to the most grotesque crimes and treatment. Then lets move onto to WWI where Albanians fought with those who were against Freedom and justice and they lost and the German race and Hungarians lost together with the Croats and the Bosniaks. During that war the Serbs were almost completely erased from the world. WWII Albanians lost again along with the Nazi's, the Bosniaks and the Ustasa. You all lost and in that loss you destroyed most of Serbia and anything Serbian. Please don't play that game because history is clear Serbs have won over oppression and in injustice in both World wars and the amount of destruction on their identity, sacrifice, culture, places of worship was more than any history book could offer. But they WON, freedom won.
And in the wars of the 1990's Serbia never wanted. You still don't get that Croatia was planning independence long ago anybody who lived in that area in the 20th century knew it was every Croatian's dying wish to have independence just like long before you and Nikshala were born Albanians were hoping the same. Do you realize that there are almost no Serbs in Croatia, that is like now as Kosovo being 10% of Serbia's population and most being Albanian that they were almost all gone from Kosovo - only 3% left...most in the world enjoy hearing that Serbia is now home to 100000's of refugees. I don't know anything about 1650 Mosques destroyed in the war I do know that on various occasions there could have been an end to that war an Izetbegovic who twice removed his signature from the peace treaties and instead followed the creed of his Islamic Declaration of the 70's and went forward with his plan to centralize Bosnia under Islamic rule with or without force.
pre 16 godina
What's amazing about that link Cvele?
Don't you get it?
People have to go on with their everyday life after all. At the moment when the status of Kosovo is disputed people have needs to travel abroad. It says in the article that UNMIK passports are recognized only in 40 countries.
Just so you can get it let me spell it out for you.
THIS IS THE REASON WHY KOSOVO STATUS NEEDS TO BE RESOLVED ASAP. THIS IS THE REASON KOSOVO NEED TO BE INDEPENDENT ASAP.
PS: Don't make fun of the suffering of people.
pre 16 godina
If UN resolution 1244 and the Kumanovo military technical agreement is off then the serb army can enter Kosovo legally. If they do it is another matter but they can do it without breaching the law. It is not a threat but simple logic. Some police and army can return even under UN resolution 1244. Does it mean the albanians consider the UN resolution 1244 being a threat aswell?
pre 16 godina
Well,
I believe that all this comments are result of lack of information. Everybody spells out 1244 and international law. All the laws in Kosovo are in accordance with 1244 that is laws dealing with common things. Other things more sensitive had to go through New York, such as privatisation - Serbia opposed to that, it tried to stop, the issue was sent to New York, and the green light was given in accordance with 1244 - same with other issues including the status. Every thing is being done in accordance with 1244, which in addition to the text, has something between the lines. Otherwise, if UN HQ in New York would believe that the meaning of 1244, expressed between the lines, is that Kosovo would remain part of Serbia than they would never approve the sale of "Serbian enterprises, Serbian land, or anything". Same procedure will be used for its status, New York will say in accordance with 1244 we decided to accept the unsaid compromise between the parties and hence Kosovo will be like we meant it to be on 24 march 1999.
By the way, I cannot find any Kosovo strategic document prepared by internationals or with their assistance (as it happened from 1999) which doesn't foresee independence, and all such documents are build on such ground.
pre 16 godina
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
The EU, UN & US is trying to bully around Serbia over the status of KosovO. One very "large" item that all these superpowers fail to realize is that KosovO is still a geographic part of Serbia.
State Department spokesman Tom Casey said, "We have two contradictory statements out there by two officials from the government," and added threats of military force were "unhelpful." President bush/the US and yourself included Mr. Casey haven't made any contradictory statements? I highly doubt that.
Any pro-albanian posters - if you're so gun-ho on the US backing you up - just look at all the wonderful things they're doing in the middle east.
pre 16 godina
Rocky said "
Serbs have won over oppression and in injustice in both World wars and the amount of destruction on their identity, sacrifice, culture, places of worship was more than any history book could offer. But they WON, freedom won. "
That's excactly what Albainans wont the oldest thing the humanity ever asked the basis of civilization -- its freedom.
I think I did explain to you earlier that there was a war In Kosovo/a and people were massacred houses burned and entire world saw it (except few of you !!!!)
Here few links to answer your question on burnings http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_09/uk/signe.htm
2. http://www.sacred-sites.org/preservation/kosovo.html.
3. http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kosovo98/photo/pics899/kos899g.htm
When you said earlier that the war was a lie let me quote The Kosovo war was unique in the history of international conflict, in that human-rights and forensics teams entered the territory on the heels of the arriving KFOR troops. Between June and October 1999, the International Criminal Tribunal oversaw exhumations from some 175 graves of the 525 gravesites they said had been marked off for investigation. (How many might remain undiscovered, given the Tribunal's limited resources and Serb efforts to cover up the crimes, is not known.) Some two thousand bodies -- 2,108, to be precise -- had been exhumed when the Tribunal issued its preliminary report in November 1999. Chief prosecutor Carla del Ponte also spoke of widespread evidence of tampering with the gravesites and destruction of evidence -- standard Serb procedure throughout the Balkans wars." link... http://www.gendercide.org/case_kosovo.html
I tried to attach the most independet media as possible in hope that at least you will have some respect for all those surviving families (whether being Albanian,Serbian or other)
thank you
pre 16 godina
ahmet isufi says…” The fact of the amtter is that b92 did edit my coment severaly and I never got my chance to explain to Albanian serbs the whole story.”.
The fact of the matter is that frequently I can’t understand your comments because the grammar and spelling is severely lacking in accuracy. Serbs or anyone else reading them can't get the full story.
pre 16 godina
lazer,
Why isn't Serbia allowed to protect its territorial integrety.
Kosovo is part of Serbia.
You may not like that, but it is the case.
And if the Northern part of Kosovo wants to stay with Serbia are Kosovar troops then allowed to go in?
May Kosovo protect its territorial integrety? And Serbia may not?
STRANGE WORLD!
pre 16 godina
Benny,
First thanks for the links, I read through them and the unesco site was most helpful, it partly satisfied me and the reason I say partly is because I can't find an exact list of Mosque's damaged, their locations and photographs, where as there are dozens of websites where I see the actual damage to Christian sites. Still, it was informative. And I never said that the war in Kosovo was a lie. I don't know where you got the idea from. Definitely it was not. And I know that both people suffered during the 78 days. 2,108 bodies found I know that figure it is reported throughout honest media...but it was not all Albanians - you know that. I understand an Albanians drive for freedom. I am just sorry that it is a place where Albanians cant claim their own. If it were Albanians that Kosovo was always home to then why weren't they fighting the Serbs in 1389...it was the Serbs fighting the Turks for Kosovo...where were the Albanians if it was theirs they would have been fighting no doubt. So, it is just hard to believe that Kosovo is anything but Serbian. Serbs too wanted freedom and that is why they fought against the Ottomans, Germany, Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia during the big wars and the Serbs won both times. The Kosovo war didn't have to happen do you really think little Serbia wanted to fight NATO - 18+ countries of the strongest in the world? But the fact is every Serb sees Kosovo as their Fatherland, and Albanians see Kosovo as home too...what will happen. I don't know...what I do know is Albanians live freely throughtout Serbia proper, no one bothers them, they live very free and with quality. We cannot say the same about a Serb living in Zagreb, or Ljubljana, Pristina, Tuzla, or anywhere else in the balkans. Why? I dont know but I do know that Croats, Muslims, many Albanians have hated Serbs long before the 1990's. Everybody knows that...and maybe it had something to do with the fact that all of these ethnic groups have hated Serbs for decades because they all lost in every big war.
pre 16 godina
Hi DimTuc,
I read through all links posted by Benny and yourself and I am halfway satisfied. The Kosovo list it does include the number but I would have liked to have seen dates, locations, more hard evidence as I have seen with many sites detailing Christian Holy sites damaged. Still, it is awful to hear and I feel remorse for all that went on. As for Bosnia the link you provided was kind of the same not really detailed enough to satisfy me but still a raw look into the damage that went on in the war. So thanks for to Benny and you for those.
I wasn't bringing in the Ottomon rule to whitewash anything Serbian. Its just that my first post was about churches in Kosovo being afflicted than you wrote back answering and furter using Bosnia as an example that is why I went into the past. In no way does the Ottoman oppression take the place of any crime a Serbian in uniform carried out...but it is something to take notice of why? Because Albanians are constantly screaming about the injustices they suffered in 78 days as their greatest argument to have an independent state...wow I can't imagine if they massacred by the Ustase and SS divisions and ruined for 500 years with turks and then in 1995 totally pushed out of Kosovo forever, what then would you say if 78 days was the greatest suffering of the Albanian people? one day that will be the distant past/ but don't you see if you can say that about Kosovo - Serbs can say the same. Krajina Serbs were almost totally killed off in the first WWI that is a fact along with any kind of Serb and then in the next WW the same. YOu can dispute that all you want, but there are countless graves to visit if you would like all through Serbian areas reminding us of the truth. And you can dispute facts but the truth is Serbia WON both wars, you can't dispute that, General Mihajlovic was given the highest honor by America. These are facts nothing to be disputed, the number dead will always be disputed but one innocent victim in the face of Nazi Germany, Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo Albanians were one too many. The fact is Croats, Bosniaks, K-Albanians, have always fought against freedom and with the death machine of the Germans, that is a fact...and you lost every time. The wars of the 90's were not fought by Serbia except the Kosovo war. Bosnia, Serbia no matter how much you want to believe did not fight, first it was Vojska Yugoslavia not Vojska Serbia and if Serbia was to fight the war would be over in months cause SErbia as Yugoslavia at that time was militarly stronger than all other ex-yugos. Really in Krajina it was a bunch of young kids fighting, poor kids from the farm, you don't realize that Serbs from Croatia wanted the same thing as you, Tudman stripped their rights as a people in 1991 before the war started, they wanted the same as K-Albanians. Bosnian Serbs also are not Islamic and didn't want to live under Isalm, the war was not started by Serbia which was Yugoslavia at the time. The war was started when Izetbegovic pushed to control the whole of Bosnia under Islam, when Christianity was and still is the majority. That war was complicated and a lot had to do with the premature recognition of states which was illegal under the constitution without a referendum, the ex states triggered that war, i'm sorry it wasnot Serbia. At that time Serbs did not even say they were Serbs, they were always Yugoslavs, I know that 100%. Tito never allowed Serbs their identities and convinced them they were Yugoslavs meanwhile everyone else even the montenegrins were allowed to call themselves their own. So...please Serbia did not want the Kosovo war or the 90's wars, Rambuliet was a gun to their head and Bosnia and Croatia was planned long ago.
pre 16 godina
I am sorry but 1244 was meant to be: Kosovo within Serbia.
We all know that.
That's what the NATO won for the Kosovars. Not more, not less.
Kosovo=1244
Kosovo=province
Kosovo=Serbia
We all know that. Come on, guys, don't cheat! Apply the rules.'
(I am NOT from Serbia, not even from the Balkans)
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