Ahmet Isufi,
Lets not play this game, I wrote that if you weren't satisfied if you really wanted to you could educate yourself with hundreds not dozens of websites on the destruction of Christianity in Kosovo.
Gee Rocky, I ought to reward you for findind serbian orthodox church web site. Thanks amn I really appreciate it. You got to be joking,right. That type of propganada I see it every day in Kosova coming from the man hiding behind religious cloth. Get real please, and come to Kosova and we can go around and do a real count if you are good at math. Again, the number does not exceede twenty in entire Kosova. Again if you are thinking of buildings popping up every where through out Kosova during Millosheviqs era, you can forget about it. those site are nothing but an ordinray building built illegaly on somebody elses land, such as : private Albanian land and Municipalities land.
DimTuc,
I did search the resources that were available to me and although I found no concrete list of Mosques damaged or destroyed in Kosovo during the 98-99 conflict I found two articles claiming that your figure was true. One was from a Western prosecutation witness from the Hague claiming that indeed over 200 Mosques were damaged or destroyed. The only problem is I can't find any lists or pictures or any other kind of substantial evidence. If you could forward me anything it would be great. If it indeed happened then shame on those commited the acts. Next 1650 Mosques afflicted during the Bosnia war, also could not find any information on this, please refer me to the right place. But since you are bringing up the past lets bring it up openly. I won't even begin to write about the suffering of the Serb and Greek and others during Ottoman rule. The Serb nation was inflicted with such severe oppression and crime that would be to gruesome to write about here but you can read very carefully anywhere about the Turks and their ways. So lets just get this straight for 500 years Serbs were subjected to the most grotesque crimes and treatment. Then lets move onto to WWI where Albanians fought with those who were against Freedom and justice and they lost and the German race and Hungarians lost together with the Croats and the Bosniaks. During that war the Serbs were almost completely erased from the world. WWII Albanians lost again along with the Nazi's, the Bosniaks and the Ustasa. You all lost and in that loss you destroyed most of Serbia and anything Serbian. Please don't play that game because history is clear Serbs have won over oppression and in injustice in both World wars and the amount of destruction on their identity, sacrifice, culture, places of worship was more than any history book could offer. But they WON, freedom won.
And in the wars of the 1990's Serbia never wanted. You still don't get that Croatia was planning independence long ago anybody who lived in that area in the 20th century knew it was every Croatian's dying wish to have independence just like long before you and Nikshala were born Albanians were hoping the same. Do you realize that there are almost no Serbs in Croatia, that is like now as Kosovo being 10% of Serbia's population and most being Albanian that they were almost all gone from Kosovo - only 3% left...most in the world enjoy hearing that Serbia is now home to 100000's of refugees. I don't know anything about 1650 Mosques destroyed in the war I do know that on various occasions there could have been an end to that war an Izetbegovic who twice removed his signature from the peace treaties and instead followed the creed of his Islamic Declaration of the 70's and went forward with his plan to centralize Bosnia under Islamic rule with or without force.
Montenegrin,
I think the Serbian Orthodox church is denying rights, not the others. The Serbian Orthodox church should start with recognizing the legitimate rights of the Montenegrin and Macedonian Orthodox churches, instead of mingling into those countries.
But, this behavior fits into the regular pattern: Serbia making trouble, with agression and territorial aspirations. Probably the Serbian Orthodox is still dreaming about Great Serbia.
(John3, 6. September 2007 13:29)
There was a comment from someone that everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Opinion is one thing, fact is another.
Fact:
The Eastern Orthodox Patrichiate Bartholomew in Constantinople,(Istanbul, Turkey) did not recognize the autocephalus church of so called "Mecedonia" which was under existance during Communist Tito's reign.
The same can be said of the so called "Montenegro Orthodox Church" which will not be regonized by Patrichiate Bartholomew.
We would like to take a moment of our posters' time and remind everyone that the standard of communication we seek to establish here will not allow for the denial of existence of nations, states, or religions, that clearly and legally exist.
This is a separate issue from our posters' personal persuasion. We therefore invite you to express your opinion and if you wish to do so, declare your own origins without any restriction.
This means that it is perfectly acceptable for a poster of Montenegrin origin to feel and considers her or himself a Serb. However, we will not seek to offend over one quarter of a million people who have declared themselves ethnic Montenegrins in the 2003 census conducted in that country, by allowing comments that deny their very existence.
By the same token, we will not publish comments that deny the existence of the Macedonian, Bosniak, Croatian, or any other nationality.
To Ahmet Istufi first...it didn't take me long to find numerous sources on Christian Holy sites damaged, vandalized, destroyed in Kosovo. Here are some posts...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1102315/posts (this was in just 3 days)
http://emperors-clothes.com/churchpics/list.htm
http://www.religioscope.com/info/notes/2002_022_serb_kosovo.htm
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/2004/marchweb-only/3-22-31.0.html
there are dozens and dozens more but I wont list all of them if these don't satisfy you, you can search for yourself it is quite simple and educational.
Rocky: "I just want some of this Albanians to please let me know why over one hundred churches were attacked and burned in Kosovo?"
These attacks by deranged individuals should of course be condemned, as they have been by Kosovar authorities. You may view their condemnatin as dishonst or not strong enough, and you're entitled to your opinion.
But to answer your question: do you think the reason (unjustified, of course, but nevertheless an explanation) may have something to do with the destruction of over 200 mosques - some one thirs of all in Kosova - in 1999 by the rampaging Serbian army and paramilitaries?
So to throw the question back to you:
"why over two hundred mosques were attacked and burned in Kosovo/a?"
Especially since these attacks, unlike the ones you refer to, were carried out by the official armed forces of the state.
And then also answer why 1650 mosques and Muslim holy places were either totally destroyed or lightly or heavily damaged in Bosnia, compared to 34 Orthodox churces (and even these Orthodox churches were attacked by the Croat forces, not the Bosnian govt), a difference of 50 to 1?
I guess you're just as con cerned about all, right, "person from California?"
"The Hague Tribunal put Filaret on its list of people suspected of aiding war crimes fugitives."
The Hague has a duty to bring its suspect list to a closure -- either indict the suspects or drop the charges. This is to be fair to the suspects rather than keep them in limbo like this. Just as those who are guilty must expect to be charged, those innocent are equally entitled to have their reputations cleared without undue delay.
He added Serbia must build good neighborly relations with other countries even when it does not agree with some of their decisions.
^^^ Same attitude should be applied to Kosova. Serbia doesn't have to like Kosova but it has to acknowledge Kosova and it's independent institutions. Yes, it does say that Kosova is a province of Serbia but face it, Serbia has not had any influence in that region nor will it ever hold any power over it.
Serbia needs to accept the fact that the Ahtisari plan is the biggest compromise that both sides can make. It guarantees unimaginable rights to minorities. I know you don't agree with me but you have to remember that the future of Kosovar-Serbs is with Kosova, not with Serbia.
Rocky, obviously you are new , becasue I have challenged all serb camp to name more that 10 orthodox churches that have been destroyed. Only one honest person and i forgat the anme but he was not a serb came up with concrete proof of 18 orthodox churches that have been partialy or badly damaged. i know the facts on the ground and not to fabricate evidence. If you call some new buildings erected during late 1990 on private properties and you put a cross on the top and you want to call that a medival orthodox church, thah I agree with you.
Another thing, at least one serb is aknolidging that Kosova is is not called Kosovo, and I am talking about the Kosovar that has posted few coments.
Way to to go Kosovar serb.
(ahmet isufi, 6. September 2007 21:31)
Ahmet, you did not answer the question sir? I guess your forgot about the one the burned that was broadcasted on CNN in 2004. I am not going to debate with you because you only see things the way you see it and further more i don't think all Kosovo Albanians think like you do sir. So i think you should step down as the lead spokesman and attend to your company to bring more jobs to Kosovo. Not to mention the Gentlemen on the steeple breaking off the cross. I guess that was a farce as well.
Hermon, I very appreciate your respect, as of the others, for Montenegro. Have you folks noticed that SERBIA IS RECOGNISED INDEPENDENT STATE as well?! Is it a bit shockingly, your attitude(s) related to this fact? Honnest can not be selective. One is, or is not, honnest. Both is not possible!
I see how you serb bloggers replied to John3 and to be quite honest is diguisting.
You people should understand that in a free society everybody's opinion should be respected no matter if you agree or disagree. At the moment you dont like some comments you jump right away calling him names like "ignoratnt" "low level" etc etc.
This is typical serbian by the way and it is exactly what your polititians do everyday.
I guess your poltician made a stupid statment and all of you should feel ashamed of that because Montenegro is a recognised independent country and should demand respect from everyone, specially from Serbian politicians.
Rocky, obviously you are new , becasue I have challenged all serb camp to name more that 10 orthodox churches that have been destroyed. Only one honest person and i forgat the anme but he was not a serb came up with concrete proof of 18 orthodox churches that have been partialy or badly damaged. i know the facts on the ground and not to fabricate evidence. If you call some new buildings erected during late 1990 on private properties and you put a cross on the top and you want to call that a medival orthodox church, thah I agree with you.
Another thing, at least one serb is aknolidging that Kosova is is not called Kosovo, and I am talking about the Kosovar that has posted few coments.
Way to to go Kosovar serb.
John3,
You wrote "The Orthodox churches are based on national states. Every country has its own church. Why should the Macedonians and the Montenegrins, living in international recognized states, not have the right on their own church, like the Bulgarians, the Ukrainians, etc. Why should Macedonians be part of the Serbian church? I am afraid that your answer will be: because they are Serbs, their states are not serious."
Well dear John3, I have never ever said or implied that montenegrins or macedonian people are serbs, they are not but I would consider us brothers or first cousins, but we are not the same.
They have their rights to their own churches, who have said anything else? They can be jehovas witnesses, convert to islam, budists or whatever they want and the serbian ortodox church have nothing to do with it. We have nothing against it. A montenegrin or macedonian church is not in conflict to the serbian church as long as they are not trying to steal serbian churches and monastaries. However I do belive that most montenegrins are followers of the serbian ortodox church, of course if the montenegrin church is more politizized that can change. Same as if they start to add lets say 30% italian words in their language it will be a new one called montenegrin
Once Milo leaves politics, his propaganda war against Serbia will stop. I predict that within a decade, Montenegro returns to its Serbian origins, both politically and culturally.
To John3. I would like to point out your Serbophobia to you. If it was only Serbs no one else wanted to live with then the rest of the peoples of the Balkans would be joining hands becoming one. You don't know the term Balkanization, a system of dividing peoples based on political interference. Let the Serbian Church live!
John3, obviously your level of understanding these problems is very low. Othervise, you wouldn't mix MAcedonian and Montenegrian church issues. These are completely different.
Whats the fuss?.... he's touched a nerve though. Its a dull, pointless news story. Move on... real issues to discuss. So what if some guy says that Montenegro is a 'quasi' state. C'mon B92, remove this story as the usual pathetic contributors are getting all excited over one man's name calling.
How many jokes do i know that involve a lazy Montenegrin??? Am i now to expect a tirade????
John3,
You obviously know nothing about canonical church law in the worldwide Eastern Orthodox Church.
Your comments about a greater Serbia have nothing to do with the actions of non-canonical Eastern Orthodox churches.
Using your own words, your comments are "complete nonsense" and your ignorance on the matter is quite clear.
Srboslav,
The Serbian Orthodox church is actively supporting war criminals, has blessed the Serbian forces committing genocide in Bosnia. The Republic of Serbia closed its eyes and let it happen. I thought Christianity is about peace, forgiving and respect.....
The Orthodox churches are based on national states. Every country has its own church. Why should the Macedonians and the Montenegrins, living in international recognized states, not have the right on their own church, like the Bulgarians, the Ukrainians, etc. Why should Macedonians be part of the Serbian church? I am afraid that your answer will be: because they are Serbs, their states are not serious.
The Serbian Church is in fact denying the Macedonian and Montenegrin identity and actively fighting against recognizing of the Macedonian and Montenegrin churches, because of dreams of the Great Serbia, arrogance and misplaced superiority. Your comments about sectarism are completely nonsense and have nothing to do with the recognizing.
By the way, I am not an Albanian :). Not only Albanians don't like Serbs. Practically nobody likes to live with Serbs and wants to break away. Not surprising if you know that the Constitution Serbia declares as a country for Serbs and 'others'. Looking to the recent history of Serbia and its attitude and respect to 'others' a highly discriminatory statement.
I think it is Montenegro who should make an apology, not Serbia. Montenegro is just trying to look like an honest state, but how can that be when Milo and his government were involved in criminal activity with italians?
Oh ya... but because america says Montenegro is ok then everyone must agree?
If you do not understand the meaning of “A sect of non-canonical Orthodox Churches, not recognised by the Eastern Orthodoxy’s Ecumenical Patriarch” then your comments are not based on fact.
This shows clearly that the Serbs do not respect anybody, not even their closest relatives the Montenegrins. No wonder that nobody wants to live with them. Once they splits from them they all live better and are more prosperous.
No surprise here, Simic is well known to prefer dabbling in quasi psychology and emotion rather than talking about facts. That’s why he is usually left out of state delegations which negotiate with international diplomats etc.
Regardless of the how accurate or not his latest statements are he is supposed to behave like a statesman not a guy sitting in a kafana arguing politics with his friends. Montenegro is an internationally recognised country now whether he likes it or not and if he cannot keep his mouth shut he ought to resign.
Thank heaven that Samardzic is the real power on serious international issues rather than this chest thumping stay-at-home advisor.
Is he the guy that was 'blessing' those red beret criminals before they shot those boys in Srebrenica, in that video? Talk about religious extremis, and terrorism.
in your dreams only Serbia would threat Montenegro with war, and only there since its never going to happen!
Some political differences does not lead to war, exept in albanian propaganda "if we do not get independece there will be war etc.."
Why should the Serbian ortodox church "recognizing the legitimate rights of the Montenegrin and Macedonian Orthodox churches" as you put it?
I belive that their churches are not dependent on what the Serbian ortodox church recognize or not.
They are secterictic churces not recognized by ANY other ortodox church and the serbian church can and should not go around and paying attention to the hundreds of different sects that exist in modern society.
Serbia should deliver Karadic and Miladic and then this problem would go away.If this guy is helping war criminals he deservers nothing less. He has not even declared that he is innocent! Good on Montenegro to respect international law.
Montenegrin,
I think the Serbian Orthodox church is denying rights, not the others. The Serbian Orthodox church should start with recognizing the legitimate rights of the Montenegrin and Macedonian Orthodox churches, instead of mingling into those countries.
But, this behavior fits into the regular pattern: Serbia making trouble, with agression and territorial aspirations. Probably the Serbian Orthodox is still dreaming about Great Serbia.
Unfortunatly I have to disagree with rest of participants. Montenegro state endagers religious rights of Orthodox people in Montenegro, for a longer period. This is just a peak. Mr ILic did a bit wrong political statement, but on the other hand very human. Sometime politics and humanity do not merge.
Mr Nikshala, let Monenegrins solve this with Serbia. In this case Albanian help is not very needful. You better influent on your people to not burn monasteries and churches any more.
One can only act for so long... sooner or later the true colors will prevail! Its about time Serbian politicians came out of their shell and confirmed who they really are. They behaving like adolescents would when they don’t get it their way ( They know it all ) Good luck to the current rhetoric as it will get you a lot of stick but no carrot whatsoever.
Well how sad and astonishing but also how funny. Brussels can breathe easy now kostunica's advisers have us in sights. i wonder what will it be for serbia leadership in the region or offensive rhetoric and sad isolation.
Serbia should deliver Karadic and Miladic and then this problem would go away.If this guy is helping war criminals he deservers nothing less. He has not even declared that he is innocent! Good on Montenegro to respect international law.
Montenegrin,
I think the Serbian Orthodox church is denying rights, not the others. The Serbian Orthodox church should start with recognizing the legitimate rights of the Montenegrin and Macedonian Orthodox churches, instead of mingling into those countries.
But, this behavior fits into the regular pattern: Serbia making trouble, with agression and territorial aspirations. Probably the Serbian Orthodox is still dreaming about Great Serbia.
Mr Nikshala, let Monenegrins solve this with Serbia. In this case Albanian help is not very needful. You better influent on your people to not burn monasteries and churches any more.
Is he the guy that was 'blessing' those red beret criminals before they shot those boys in Srebrenica, in that video? Talk about religious extremis, and terrorism.
Srboslav,
The Serbian Orthodox church is actively supporting war criminals, has blessed the Serbian forces committing genocide in Bosnia. The Republic of Serbia closed its eyes and let it happen. I thought Christianity is about peace, forgiving and respect.....
The Orthodox churches are based on national states. Every country has its own church. Why should the Macedonians and the Montenegrins, living in international recognized states, not have the right on their own church, like the Bulgarians, the Ukrainians, etc. Why should Macedonians be part of the Serbian church? I am afraid that your answer will be: because they are Serbs, their states are not serious.
The Serbian Church is in fact denying the Macedonian and Montenegrin identity and actively fighting against recognizing of the Macedonian and Montenegrin churches, because of dreams of the Great Serbia, arrogance and misplaced superiority. Your comments about sectarism are completely nonsense and have nothing to do with the recognizing.
By the way, I am not an Albanian :). Not only Albanians don't like Serbs. Practically nobody likes to live with Serbs and wants to break away. Not surprising if you know that the Constitution Serbia declares as a country for Serbs and 'others'. Looking to the recent history of Serbia and its attitude and respect to 'others' a highly discriminatory statement.
This shows clearly that the Serbs do not respect anybody, not even their closest relatives the Montenegrins. No wonder that nobody wants to live with them. Once they splits from them they all live better and are more prosperous.
I think it is Montenegro who should make an apology, not Serbia. Montenegro is just trying to look like an honest state, but how can that be when Milo and his government were involved in criminal activity with italians?
Oh ya... but because america says Montenegro is ok then everyone must agree?
in your dreams only Serbia would threat Montenegro with war, and only there since its never going to happen!
Some political differences does not lead to war, exept in albanian propaganda "if we do not get independece there will be war etc.."
Why should the Serbian ortodox church "recognizing the legitimate rights of the Montenegrin and Macedonian Orthodox churches" as you put it?
I belive that their churches are not dependent on what the Serbian ortodox church recognize or not.
They are secterictic churces not recognized by ANY other ortodox church and the serbian church can and should not go around and paying attention to the hundreds of different sects that exist in modern society.
Whats the fuss?.... he's touched a nerve though. Its a dull, pointless news story. Move on... real issues to discuss. So what if some guy says that Montenegro is a 'quasi' state. C'mon B92, remove this story as the usual pathetic contributors are getting all excited over one man's name calling.
How many jokes do i know that involve a lazy Montenegrin??? Am i now to expect a tirade????
Once Milo leaves politics, his propaganda war against Serbia will stop. I predict that within a decade, Montenegro returns to its Serbian origins, both politically and culturally.
I see how you serb bloggers replied to John3 and to be quite honest is diguisting.
You people should understand that in a free society everybody's opinion should be respected no matter if you agree or disagree. At the moment you dont like some comments you jump right away calling him names like "ignoratnt" "low level" etc etc.
This is typical serbian by the way and it is exactly what your polititians do everyday.
I guess your poltician made a stupid statment and all of you should feel ashamed of that because Montenegro is a recognised independent country and should demand respect from everyone, specially from Serbian politicians.
No surprise here, Simic is well known to prefer dabbling in quasi psychology and emotion rather than talking about facts. That’s why he is usually left out of state delegations which negotiate with international diplomats etc.
Regardless of the how accurate or not his latest statements are he is supposed to behave like a statesman not a guy sitting in a kafana arguing politics with his friends. Montenegro is an internationally recognised country now whether he likes it or not and if he cannot keep his mouth shut he ought to resign.
Thank heaven that Samardzic is the real power on serious international issues rather than this chest thumping stay-at-home advisor.
John3, obviously your level of understanding these problems is very low. Othervise, you wouldn't mix MAcedonian and Montenegrian church issues. These are completely different.
To John3. I would like to point out your Serbophobia to you. If it was only Serbs no one else wanted to live with then the rest of the peoples of the Balkans would be joining hands becoming one. You don't know the term Balkanization, a system of dividing peoples based on political interference. Let the Serbian Church live!
Rocky, obviously you are new , becasue I have challenged all serb camp to name more that 10 orthodox churches that have been destroyed. Only one honest person and i forgat the anme but he was not a serb came up with concrete proof of 18 orthodox churches that have been partialy or badly damaged. i know the facts on the ground and not to fabricate evidence. If you call some new buildings erected during late 1990 on private properties and you put a cross on the top and you want to call that a medival orthodox church, thah I agree with you.
Another thing, at least one serb is aknolidging that Kosova is is not called Kosovo, and I am talking about the Kosovar that has posted few coments.
Way to to go Kosovar serb.
One can only act for so long... sooner or later the true colors will prevail! Its about time Serbian politicians came out of their shell and confirmed who they really are. They behaving like adolescents would when they don’t get it their way ( They know it all ) Good luck to the current rhetoric as it will get you a lot of stick but no carrot whatsoever.
Unfortunatly I have to disagree with rest of participants. Montenegro state endagers religious rights of Orthodox people in Montenegro, for a longer period. This is just a peak. Mr ILic did a bit wrong political statement, but on the other hand very human. Sometime politics and humanity do not merge.
If you do not understand the meaning of “A sect of non-canonical Orthodox Churches, not recognised by the Eastern Orthodoxy’s Ecumenical Patriarch” then your comments are not based on fact.
John3,
You obviously know nothing about canonical church law in the worldwide Eastern Orthodox Church.
Your comments about a greater Serbia have nothing to do with the actions of non-canonical Eastern Orthodox churches.
Using your own words, your comments are "complete nonsense" and your ignorance on the matter is quite clear.
John3,
You wrote "The Orthodox churches are based on national states. Every country has its own church. Why should the Macedonians and the Montenegrins, living in international recognized states, not have the right on their own church, like the Bulgarians, the Ukrainians, etc. Why should Macedonians be part of the Serbian church? I am afraid that your answer will be: because they are Serbs, their states are not serious."
Well dear John3, I have never ever said or implied that montenegrins or macedonian people are serbs, they are not but I would consider us brothers or first cousins, but we are not the same.
They have their rights to their own churches, who have said anything else? They can be jehovas witnesses, convert to islam, budists or whatever they want and the serbian ortodox church have nothing to do with it. We have nothing against it. A montenegrin or macedonian church is not in conflict to the serbian church as long as they are not trying to steal serbian churches and monastaries. However I do belive that most montenegrins are followers of the serbian ortodox church, of course if the montenegrin church is more politizized that can change. Same as if they start to add lets say 30% italian words in their language it will be a new one called montenegrin
Well how sad and astonishing but also how funny. Brussels can breathe easy now kostunica's advisers have us in sights. i wonder what will it be for serbia leadership in the region or offensive rhetoric and sad isolation.
Hermon, I very appreciate your respect, as of the others, for Montenegro. Have you folks noticed that SERBIA IS RECOGNISED INDEPENDENT STATE as well?! Is it a bit shockingly, your attitude(s) related to this fact? Honnest can not be selective. One is, or is not, honnest. Both is not possible!
Rocky, obviously you are new , becasue I have challenged all serb camp to name more that 10 orthodox churches that have been destroyed. Only one honest person and i forgat the anme but he was not a serb came up with concrete proof of 18 orthodox churches that have been partialy or badly damaged. i know the facts on the ground and not to fabricate evidence. If you call some new buildings erected during late 1990 on private properties and you put a cross on the top and you want to call that a medival orthodox church, thah I agree with you.
Another thing, at least one serb is aknolidging that Kosova is is not called Kosovo, and I am talking about the Kosovar that has posted few coments.
Way to to go Kosovar serb.
(ahmet isufi, 6. September 2007 21:31)
Ahmet, you did not answer the question sir? I guess your forgot about the one the burned that was broadcasted on CNN in 2004. I am not going to debate with you because you only see things the way you see it and further more i don't think all Kosovo Albanians think like you do sir. So i think you should step down as the lead spokesman and attend to your company to bring more jobs to Kosovo. Not to mention the Gentlemen on the steeple breaking off the cross. I guess that was a farce as well.
"The Hague Tribunal put Filaret on its list of people suspected of aiding war crimes fugitives."
The Hague has a duty to bring its suspect list to a closure -- either indict the suspects or drop the charges. This is to be fair to the suspects rather than keep them in limbo like this. Just as those who are guilty must expect to be charged, those innocent are equally entitled to have their reputations cleared without undue delay.
We would like to take a moment of our posters' time and remind everyone that the standard of communication we seek to establish here will not allow for the denial of existence of nations, states, or religions, that clearly and legally exist.
This is a separate issue from our posters' personal persuasion. We therefore invite you to express your opinion and if you wish to do so, declare your own origins without any restriction.
This means that it is perfectly acceptable for a poster of Montenegrin origin to feel and considers her or himself a Serb. However, we will not seek to offend over one quarter of a million people who have declared themselves ethnic Montenegrins in the 2003 census conducted in that country, by allowing comments that deny their very existence.
By the same token, we will not publish comments that deny the existence of the Macedonian, Bosniak, Croatian, or any other nationality.
Montenegrin,
I think the Serbian Orthodox church is denying rights, not the others. The Serbian Orthodox church should start with recognizing the legitimate rights of the Montenegrin and Macedonian Orthodox churches, instead of mingling into those countries.
But, this behavior fits into the regular pattern: Serbia making trouble, with agression and territorial aspirations. Probably the Serbian Orthodox is still dreaming about Great Serbia.
(John3, 6. September 2007 13:29)
There was a comment from someone that everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Opinion is one thing, fact is another.
Fact:
The Eastern Orthodox Patrichiate Bartholomew in Constantinople,(Istanbul, Turkey) did not recognize the autocephalus church of so called "Mecedonia" which was under existance during Communist Tito's reign.
The same can be said of the so called "Montenegro Orthodox Church" which will not be regonized by Patrichiate Bartholomew.
Ahmet Isufi,
Lets not play this game, I wrote that if you weren't satisfied if you really wanted to you could educate yourself with hundreds not dozens of websites on the destruction of Christianity in Kosovo.
He added Serbia must build good neighborly relations with other countries even when it does not agree with some of their decisions.
^^^ Same attitude should be applied to Kosova. Serbia doesn't have to like Kosova but it has to acknowledge Kosova and it's independent institutions. Yes, it does say that Kosova is a province of Serbia but face it, Serbia has not had any influence in that region nor will it ever hold any power over it.
Serbia needs to accept the fact that the Ahtisari plan is the biggest compromise that both sides can make. It guarantees unimaginable rights to minorities. I know you don't agree with me but you have to remember that the future of Kosovar-Serbs is with Kosova, not with Serbia.
Rocky: "I just want some of this Albanians to please let me know why over one hundred churches were attacked and burned in Kosovo?"
These attacks by deranged individuals should of course be condemned, as they have been by Kosovar authorities. You may view their condemnatin as dishonst or not strong enough, and you're entitled to your opinion.
But to answer your question: do you think the reason (unjustified, of course, but nevertheless an explanation) may have something to do with the destruction of over 200 mosques - some one thirs of all in Kosova - in 1999 by the rampaging Serbian army and paramilitaries?
So to throw the question back to you:
"why over two hundred mosques were attacked and burned in Kosovo/a?"
Especially since these attacks, unlike the ones you refer to, were carried out by the official armed forces of the state.
And then also answer why 1650 mosques and Muslim holy places were either totally destroyed or lightly or heavily damaged in Bosnia, compared to 34 Orthodox churces (and even these Orthodox churches were attacked by the Croat forces, not the Bosnian govt), a difference of 50 to 1?
I guess you're just as con cerned about all, right, "person from California?"
To Ahmet Istufi first...it didn't take me long to find numerous sources on Christian Holy sites damaged, vandalized, destroyed in Kosovo. Here are some posts...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1102315/posts (this was in just 3 days)
http://emperors-clothes.com/churchpics/list.htm
http://www.religioscope.com/info/notes/2002_022_serb_kosovo.htm
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/2004/marchweb-only/3-22-31.0.html
there are dozens and dozens more but I wont list all of them if these don't satisfy you, you can search for yourself it is quite simple and educational.
DimTuc,
I did search the resources that were available to me and although I found no concrete list of Mosques damaged or destroyed in Kosovo during the 98-99 conflict I found two articles claiming that your figure was true. One was from a Western prosecutation witness from the Hague claiming that indeed over 200 Mosques were damaged or destroyed. The only problem is I can't find any lists or pictures or any other kind of substantial evidence. If you could forward me anything it would be great. If it indeed happened then shame on those commited the acts. Next 1650 Mosques afflicted during the Bosnia war, also could not find any information on this, please refer me to the right place. But since you are bringing up the past lets bring it up openly. I won't even begin to write about the suffering of the Serb and Greek and others during Ottoman rule. The Serb nation was inflicted with such severe oppression and crime that would be to gruesome to write about here but you can read very carefully anywhere about the Turks and their ways. So lets just get this straight for 500 years Serbs were subjected to the most grotesque crimes and treatment. Then lets move onto to WWI where Albanians fought with those who were against Freedom and justice and they lost and the German race and Hungarians lost together with the Croats and the Bosniaks. During that war the Serbs were almost completely erased from the world. WWII Albanians lost again along with the Nazi's, the Bosniaks and the Ustasa. You all lost and in that loss you destroyed most of Serbia and anything Serbian. Please don't play that game because history is clear Serbs have won over oppression and in injustice in both World wars and the amount of destruction on their identity, sacrifice, culture, places of worship was more than any history book could offer. But they WON, freedom won.
And in the wars of the 1990's Serbia never wanted. You still don't get that Croatia was planning independence long ago anybody who lived in that area in the 20th century knew it was every Croatian's dying wish to have independence just like long before you and Nikshala were born Albanians were hoping the same. Do you realize that there are almost no Serbs in Croatia, that is like now as Kosovo being 10% of Serbia's population and most being Albanian that they were almost all gone from Kosovo - only 3% left...most in the world enjoy hearing that Serbia is now home to 100000's of refugees. I don't know anything about 1650 Mosques destroyed in the war I do know that on various occasions there could have been an end to that war an Izetbegovic who twice removed his signature from the peace treaties and instead followed the creed of his Islamic Declaration of the 70's and went forward with his plan to centralize Bosnia under Islamic rule with or without force.
Gee Rocky, I ought to reward you for findind serbian orthodox church web site. Thanks amn I really appreciate it. You got to be joking,right. That type of propganada I see it every day in Kosova coming from the man hiding behind religious cloth. Get real please, and come to Kosova and we can go around and do a real count if you are good at math. Again, the number does not exceede twenty in entire Kosova. Again if you are thinking of buildings popping up every where through out Kosova during Millosheviqs era, you can forget about it. those site are nothing but an ordinray building built illegaly on somebody elses land, such as : private Albanian land and Municipalities land.
Montenegrin,
I think the Serbian Orthodox church is denying rights, not the others. The Serbian Orthodox church should start with recognizing the legitimate rights of the Montenegrin and Macedonian Orthodox churches, instead of mingling into those countries.
But, this behavior fits into the regular pattern: Serbia making trouble, with agression and territorial aspirations. Probably the Serbian Orthodox is still dreaming about Great Serbia.
Srboslav,
The Serbian Orthodox church is actively supporting war criminals, has blessed the Serbian forces committing genocide in Bosnia. The Republic of Serbia closed its eyes and let it happen. I thought Christianity is about peace, forgiving and respect.....
The Orthodox churches are based on national states. Every country has its own church. Why should the Macedonians and the Montenegrins, living in international recognized states, not have the right on their own church, like the Bulgarians, the Ukrainians, etc. Why should Macedonians be part of the Serbian church? I am afraid that your answer will be: because they are Serbs, their states are not serious.
The Serbian Church is in fact denying the Macedonian and Montenegrin identity and actively fighting against recognizing of the Macedonian and Montenegrin churches, because of dreams of the Great Serbia, arrogance and misplaced superiority. Your comments about sectarism are completely nonsense and have nothing to do with the recognizing.
By the way, I am not an Albanian :). Not only Albanians don't like Serbs. Practically nobody likes to live with Serbs and wants to break away. Not surprising if you know that the Constitution Serbia declares as a country for Serbs and 'others'. Looking to the recent history of Serbia and its attitude and respect to 'others' a highly discriminatory statement.
Rocky, obviously you are new , becasue I have challenged all serb camp to name more that 10 orthodox churches that have been destroyed. Only one honest person and i forgat the anme but he was not a serb came up with concrete proof of 18 orthodox churches that have been partialy or badly damaged. i know the facts on the ground and not to fabricate evidence. If you call some new buildings erected during late 1990 on private properties and you put a cross on the top and you want to call that a medival orthodox church, thah I agree with you.
Another thing, at least one serb is aknolidging that Kosova is is not called Kosovo, and I am talking about the Kosovar that has posted few coments.
Way to to go Kosovar serb.
Is he the guy that was 'blessing' those red beret criminals before they shot those boys in Srebrenica, in that video? Talk about religious extremis, and terrorism.
Serbia should deliver Karadic and Miladic and then this problem would go away.If this guy is helping war criminals he deservers nothing less. He has not even declared that he is innocent! Good on Montenegro to respect international law.
John3,
You obviously know nothing about canonical church law in the worldwide Eastern Orthodox Church.
Your comments about a greater Serbia have nothing to do with the actions of non-canonical Eastern Orthodox churches.
Using your own words, your comments are "complete nonsense" and your ignorance on the matter is quite clear.
Well how sad and astonishing but also how funny. Brussels can breathe easy now kostunica's advisers have us in sights. i wonder what will it be for serbia leadership in the region or offensive rhetoric and sad isolation.
One can only act for so long... sooner or later the true colors will prevail! Its about time Serbian politicians came out of their shell and confirmed who they really are. They behaving like adolescents would when they don’t get it their way ( They know it all ) Good luck to the current rhetoric as it will get you a lot of stick but no carrot whatsoever.
Unfortunatly I have to disagree with rest of participants. Montenegro state endagers religious rights of Orthodox people in Montenegro, for a longer period. This is just a peak. Mr ILic did a bit wrong political statement, but on the other hand very human. Sometime politics and humanity do not merge.
This shows clearly that the Serbs do not respect anybody, not even their closest relatives the Montenegrins. No wonder that nobody wants to live with them. Once they splits from them they all live better and are more prosperous.
Whats the fuss?.... he's touched a nerve though. Its a dull, pointless news story. Move on... real issues to discuss. So what if some guy says that Montenegro is a 'quasi' state. C'mon B92, remove this story as the usual pathetic contributors are getting all excited over one man's name calling.
How many jokes do i know that involve a lazy Montenegrin??? Am i now to expect a tirade????
I see how you serb bloggers replied to John3 and to be quite honest is diguisting.
You people should understand that in a free society everybody's opinion should be respected no matter if you agree or disagree. At the moment you dont like some comments you jump right away calling him names like "ignoratnt" "low level" etc etc.
This is typical serbian by the way and it is exactly what your polititians do everyday.
I guess your poltician made a stupid statment and all of you should feel ashamed of that because Montenegro is a recognised independent country and should demand respect from everyone, specially from Serbian politicians.
Mr Nikshala, let Monenegrins solve this with Serbia. In this case Albanian help is not very needful. You better influent on your people to not burn monasteries and churches any more.
If you do not understand the meaning of “A sect of non-canonical Orthodox Churches, not recognised by the Eastern Orthodoxy’s Ecumenical Patriarch” then your comments are not based on fact.
in your dreams only Serbia would threat Montenegro with war, and only there since its never going to happen!
Some political differences does not lead to war, exept in albanian propaganda "if we do not get independece there will be war etc.."
Why should the Serbian ortodox church "recognizing the legitimate rights of the Montenegrin and Macedonian Orthodox churches" as you put it?
I belive that their churches are not dependent on what the Serbian ortodox church recognize or not.
They are secterictic churces not recognized by ANY other ortodox church and the serbian church can and should not go around and paying attention to the hundreds of different sects that exist in modern society.
No surprise here, Simic is well known to prefer dabbling in quasi psychology and emotion rather than talking about facts. That’s why he is usually left out of state delegations which negotiate with international diplomats etc.
Regardless of the how accurate or not his latest statements are he is supposed to behave like a statesman not a guy sitting in a kafana arguing politics with his friends. Montenegro is an internationally recognised country now whether he likes it or not and if he cannot keep his mouth shut he ought to resign.
Thank heaven that Samardzic is the real power on serious international issues rather than this chest thumping stay-at-home advisor.
I think it is Montenegro who should make an apology, not Serbia. Montenegro is just trying to look like an honest state, but how can that be when Milo and his government were involved in criminal activity with italians?
Oh ya... but because america says Montenegro is ok then everyone must agree?
John3, obviously your level of understanding these problems is very low. Othervise, you wouldn't mix MAcedonian and Montenegrian church issues. These are completely different.
To John3. I would like to point out your Serbophobia to you. If it was only Serbs no one else wanted to live with then the rest of the peoples of the Balkans would be joining hands becoming one. You don't know the term Balkanization, a system of dividing peoples based on political interference. Let the Serbian Church live!
Once Milo leaves politics, his propaganda war against Serbia will stop. I predict that within a decade, Montenegro returns to its Serbian origins, both politically and culturally.
John3,
You wrote "The Orthodox churches are based on national states. Every country has its own church. Why should the Macedonians and the Montenegrins, living in international recognized states, not have the right on their own church, like the Bulgarians, the Ukrainians, etc. Why should Macedonians be part of the Serbian church? I am afraid that your answer will be: because they are Serbs, their states are not serious."
Well dear John3, I have never ever said or implied that montenegrins or macedonian people are serbs, they are not but I would consider us brothers or first cousins, but we are not the same.
They have their rights to their own churches, who have said anything else? They can be jehovas witnesses, convert to islam, budists or whatever they want and the serbian ortodox church have nothing to do with it. We have nothing against it. A montenegrin or macedonian church is not in conflict to the serbian church as long as they are not trying to steal serbian churches and monastaries. However I do belive that most montenegrins are followers of the serbian ortodox church, of course if the montenegrin church is more politizized that can change. Same as if they start to add lets say 30% italian words in their language it will be a new one called montenegrin
Hermon, I very appreciate your respect, as of the others, for Montenegro. Have you folks noticed that SERBIA IS RECOGNISED INDEPENDENT STATE as well?! Is it a bit shockingly, your attitude(s) related to this fact? Honnest can not be selective. One is, or is not, honnest. Both is not possible!
Rocky, obviously you are new , becasue I have challenged all serb camp to name more that 10 orthodox churches that have been destroyed. Only one honest person and i forgat the anme but he was not a serb came up with concrete proof of 18 orthodox churches that have been partialy or badly damaged. i know the facts on the ground and not to fabricate evidence. If you call some new buildings erected during late 1990 on private properties and you put a cross on the top and you want to call that a medival orthodox church, thah I agree with you.
Another thing, at least one serb is aknolidging that Kosova is is not called Kosovo, and I am talking about the Kosovar that has posted few coments.
Way to to go Kosovar serb.
(ahmet isufi, 6. September 2007 21:31)
Ahmet, you did not answer the question sir? I guess your forgot about the one the burned that was broadcasted on CNN in 2004. I am not going to debate with you because you only see things the way you see it and further more i don't think all Kosovo Albanians think like you do sir. So i think you should step down as the lead spokesman and attend to your company to bring more jobs to Kosovo. Not to mention the Gentlemen on the steeple breaking off the cross. I guess that was a farce as well.
He added Serbia must build good neighborly relations with other countries even when it does not agree with some of their decisions.
^^^ Same attitude should be applied to Kosova. Serbia doesn't have to like Kosova but it has to acknowledge Kosova and it's independent institutions. Yes, it does say that Kosova is a province of Serbia but face it, Serbia has not had any influence in that region nor will it ever hold any power over it.
Serbia needs to accept the fact that the Ahtisari plan is the biggest compromise that both sides can make. It guarantees unimaginable rights to minorities. I know you don't agree with me but you have to remember that the future of Kosovar-Serbs is with Kosova, not with Serbia.
"The Hague Tribunal put Filaret on its list of people suspected of aiding war crimes fugitives."
The Hague has a duty to bring its suspect list to a closure -- either indict the suspects or drop the charges. This is to be fair to the suspects rather than keep them in limbo like this. Just as those who are guilty must expect to be charged, those innocent are equally entitled to have their reputations cleared without undue delay.
Rocky: "I just want some of this Albanians to please let me know why over one hundred churches were attacked and burned in Kosovo?"
These attacks by deranged individuals should of course be condemned, as they have been by Kosovar authorities. You may view their condemnatin as dishonst or not strong enough, and you're entitled to your opinion.
But to answer your question: do you think the reason (unjustified, of course, but nevertheless an explanation) may have something to do with the destruction of over 200 mosques - some one thirs of all in Kosova - in 1999 by the rampaging Serbian army and paramilitaries?
So to throw the question back to you:
"why over two hundred mosques were attacked and burned in Kosovo/a?"
Especially since these attacks, unlike the ones you refer to, were carried out by the official armed forces of the state.
And then also answer why 1650 mosques and Muslim holy places were either totally destroyed or lightly or heavily damaged in Bosnia, compared to 34 Orthodox churces (and even these Orthodox churches were attacked by the Croat forces, not the Bosnian govt), a difference of 50 to 1?
I guess you're just as con cerned about all, right, "person from California?"
We would like to take a moment of our posters' time and remind everyone that the standard of communication we seek to establish here will not allow for the denial of existence of nations, states, or religions, that clearly and legally exist.
This is a separate issue from our posters' personal persuasion. We therefore invite you to express your opinion and if you wish to do so, declare your own origins without any restriction.
This means that it is perfectly acceptable for a poster of Montenegrin origin to feel and considers her or himself a Serb. However, we will not seek to offend over one quarter of a million people who have declared themselves ethnic Montenegrins in the 2003 census conducted in that country, by allowing comments that deny their very existence.
By the same token, we will not publish comments that deny the existence of the Macedonian, Bosniak, Croatian, or any other nationality.
To Ahmet Istufi first...it didn't take me long to find numerous sources on Christian Holy sites damaged, vandalized, destroyed in Kosovo. Here are some posts...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1102315/posts (this was in just 3 days)
http://emperors-clothes.com/churchpics/list.htm
http://www.religioscope.com/info/notes/2002_022_serb_kosovo.htm
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/2004/marchweb-only/3-22-31.0.html
there are dozens and dozens more but I wont list all of them if these don't satisfy you, you can search for yourself it is quite simple and educational.
DimTuc,
I did search the resources that were available to me and although I found no concrete list of Mosques damaged or destroyed in Kosovo during the 98-99 conflict I found two articles claiming that your figure was true. One was from a Western prosecutation witness from the Hague claiming that indeed over 200 Mosques were damaged or destroyed. The only problem is I can't find any lists or pictures or any other kind of substantial evidence. If you could forward me anything it would be great. If it indeed happened then shame on those commited the acts. Next 1650 Mosques afflicted during the Bosnia war, also could not find any information on this, please refer me to the right place. But since you are bringing up the past lets bring it up openly. I won't even begin to write about the suffering of the Serb and Greek and others during Ottoman rule. The Serb nation was inflicted with such severe oppression and crime that would be to gruesome to write about here but you can read very carefully anywhere about the Turks and their ways. So lets just get this straight for 500 years Serbs were subjected to the most grotesque crimes and treatment. Then lets move onto to WWI where Albanians fought with those who were against Freedom and justice and they lost and the German race and Hungarians lost together with the Croats and the Bosniaks. During that war the Serbs were almost completely erased from the world. WWII Albanians lost again along with the Nazi's, the Bosniaks and the Ustasa. You all lost and in that loss you destroyed most of Serbia and anything Serbian. Please don't play that game because history is clear Serbs have won over oppression and in injustice in both World wars and the amount of destruction on their identity, sacrifice, culture, places of worship was more than any history book could offer. But they WON, freedom won.
And in the wars of the 1990's Serbia never wanted. You still don't get that Croatia was planning independence long ago anybody who lived in that area in the 20th century knew it was every Croatian's dying wish to have independence just like long before you and Nikshala were born Albanians were hoping the same. Do you realize that there are almost no Serbs in Croatia, that is like now as Kosovo being 10% of Serbia's population and most being Albanian that they were almost all gone from Kosovo - only 3% left...most in the world enjoy hearing that Serbia is now home to 100000's of refugees. I don't know anything about 1650 Mosques destroyed in the war I do know that on various occasions there could have been an end to that war an Izetbegovic who twice removed his signature from the peace treaties and instead followed the creed of his Islamic Declaration of the 70's and went forward with his plan to centralize Bosnia under Islamic rule with or without force.
Montenegrin,
I think the Serbian Orthodox church is denying rights, not the others. The Serbian Orthodox church should start with recognizing the legitimate rights of the Montenegrin and Macedonian Orthodox churches, instead of mingling into those countries.
But, this behavior fits into the regular pattern: Serbia making trouble, with agression and territorial aspirations. Probably the Serbian Orthodox is still dreaming about Great Serbia.
(John3, 6. September 2007 13:29)
There was a comment from someone that everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Opinion is one thing, fact is another.
Fact:
The Eastern Orthodox Patrichiate Bartholomew in Constantinople,(Istanbul, Turkey) did not recognize the autocephalus church of so called "Mecedonia" which was under existance during Communist Tito's reign.
The same can be said of the so called "Montenegro Orthodox Church" which will not be regonized by Patrichiate Bartholomew.
Gee Rocky, I ought to reward you for findind serbian orthodox church web site. Thanks amn I really appreciate it. You got to be joking,right. That type of propganada I see it every day in Kosova coming from the man hiding behind religious cloth. Get real please, and come to Kosova and we can go around and do a real count if you are good at math. Again, the number does not exceede twenty in entire Kosova. Again if you are thinking of buildings popping up every where through out Kosova during Millosheviqs era, you can forget about it. those site are nothing but an ordinray building built illegaly on somebody elses land, such as : private Albanian land and Municipalities land.
Ahmet Isufi,
Lets not play this game, I wrote that if you weren't satisfied if you really wanted to you could educate yourself with hundreds not dozens of websites on the destruction of Christianity in Kosovo.
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