I still think joining NATO is picking sides, when we shouldn’t be forced to choose. I also want to know where Ment lives and where he grew up. He’s so damn reasonable, I’m nearly convinced he lives in the West.
Knez, thanks for your feedback. I agree Serbia could be a bridge between east and west (although these lines are becoming blurred) but it does not mean it can't join NATO to do so. On the contrary, I would argue that Serbia would play a stronger role as a bridge and facilitator within NATO than outside it. It may even be more beneficial to Russia to have Serbian sympathizers within NATO than outside it.
As far as NATO being an instrument of the US, this is completely false. Look at the disagreements over Russia and strategic missile defense, or at the positions on Kosovo status, or caveats in AFG. They are very different and it causes unease, but that is normal to have differences, and to work them out. What it does show is that not even the US can tell NATO what it can do. The US has a lot of pull in NATO, but even the very small countries have teeth--that is the nature of a consensus-oriented organization. It is actually quite beneficial to smaller countries such as Serbia.
(I knew Ment was Albanian, but was not sure from where.)
'Serbia will never forget the tragic events of 1999'.
What about the atrocities Serbs are responsible for in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo? Forgotten already? Serbia has no right at all to speak in this way. We should not forget that Serbia has the main responsibility for the violence on the Balkans, by trying to strip parts of Croatia and Bosnia. Strange to hear the same people who wanted to create the Great Serbia by taking taking territory from other sovereign states, are now talking about respect for international law and standards. It is more than ridiculous.
Principe you will never forget what NATO did in 1999 you joking no? For that you got to blame you'r goverment ,and for the memo your goverment and your people you know how much demage cost to whole ex yugoslavia in number of live's and material destruction seen to me you don't have clues ,maybe not because in 90 to 99 the RTS was so blind and that left serbia in big debt.And hold and see what will happening later in the years come, for all the dameges what serbia did to the EX... IT WILL PAY MONETARY same like germans who and still pay out the jews for they crimes in WWII... And this is in to a international law and can apply for any state who can prove a destruction and genocide from other state...
No need to rush into joining NATO. Military alliances can often become very entangled.
People act like it’s a choice between East and West, and it doesn’t have to be. Serbia, can and will be that bridge. Its our destiny, geographically, historically and spiritually.
Besides, joining NATO will offend our good friend Russia more than not joining would offend our friends in Europe.
Jorge you made some very good points the other day in regards to the benefits of reform and civilian oversight, and hopefully Serbia will learn what they need from the PfP and go on from there. Ment is an Albanian, but I completely agree the Balkans needs more level headed people like him. I’ve been very impressed with his ideas and he has my deep respect, even when we strongly disagree. If everyone in the Balkans were like him, we would not be in the mess we currently are.
"What makes Austria so special?" Mark, is this a serious question?
Austria, unlike Serbia, has been rich and democratic for decades. It is surrounded by safe and well-meaning neighbors--name just one with a border dispute.
Serbia, my friend, is not Austria, it is not CH, it is not Ireland, Finland or Sweden--unlike any of these countries, it is a country in political and economic transition surrounded by former rivals and enemies, all of which will have joined NATO in short time. This last point is one motivator for Serbia getting into NATO, not staying out! Do not expect Russia or Greece to come to Serbia's rescue in case anything heavy ever comes down again. Skeptical Serbs really have to wake up and realize that NATO will be its best security guarantee.
As far as Serbia being forced to buy Western arms to NATO--this is not true. Some countries will try to push these on Serbia, but Serbia has every right to say no, and use its materiel of choice. There is nothing in NATO that forces a country to buy something it does not want or need. Look at the large amount of ex-Warsaw Pact equipment that is still used in the newer NATO countries. Of course, some countries went out of their way in buying Western equipment to cozy up to the Americans or to try to get a Western face lift of sorts, but this is not expected or required from Serbia or anyone else. Of course, a lot of the Western equipment was just simply better quality so this was also a motivator for many countries to purchase it, but at the end of the day, Serb mission requirements will determine Serb arms purchases. And if you know anything about NATO, it is clear that Serbia will determine its level of participation in NATO and PfP and not the other way around.
Extermination? no extermination was what happened in Srebrenica and as I recall, serbia was the one that had massive concentration camps at places like Omarska. Babic ordered evacuation of Krajina a few days before Storm. that is a fact that cant be argued. There are things which cannot be twisted so you can make urself a victim. If anything it makes u sound uneducated
This is an interesting change of events.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/05/america/serbia.php?WT.mc_id=rssfrontpage
Serbia is now threatening to use force is Kosovo becomes independent. I'm sure the West and Albanians are shaking as the earth trembles under the Serbian army boots.
In case of Serbia, NATO attacked civilians for a few months killing up to 2000 innocent civilians; NATO bombed a TV studio in Belgrade, murdering more than dozen journalists... NATO also provided and is still providing cover for Albanian extremists in Kosovo to murder the Serbs, destroy Orthodox churches, force out at gun/knife point entire Serb population (save for a few elderly Serbs who are unable to move). In Croatia, NATO supported the Croat regime in the biggest ethnic extermination (of Serbs) in Europe since the end of WWII. In ex-Bosnia, NATO supported ethnic extermination of Serbs from two biggest cities, i.e. Sarajevo and Mostar, which are nowadays practicaly Serb-free.
If Serbia had a choice it would be advised to stay neutral in forthcoming conflict between Russia and USA. EU is big too, but in terms of its impact on foreign policy, it still is only a big satellite.
Serbia should cooperate with NATO as much as humanly possible but as far as actual membership is concerned a thorough cost/benefit analysis must be performed to determine whether Serbia will come out ahead in the equation.Austria,Sweden,switzerland etc. never needed NATO and even though France is a member it has always gone against NATO when it was in her interest to do so.Even today many NATO countries do not put their soldiers in actual jeopardy for Bush's follies.No country is ever going to attack the European homeland except for internal threats like the Islamists who got arrested today in Germany and Denmark.Europe's security problems are all internal due to the fact it is overflowing with Islamists.
Austria is not in NATO and they are surrounded by NATO countries. So what is the difference if Serbia joins the EU and not Nato. What makes Austria so special. Why should Serbia spend billions of pounds paying american arms for NATO standard weopans when they can spend it on areas that need it most. The kalanishkov is better than the UK SA80 assault rifle. If Serbias position is not that important than why did Rambouilet demand Nato can pass through and build bases in Serbia. Serbia does not have the money to spend on NATO standard weopanry, save it for building roads and infrastructure.
Great move! This will give our country more freedom to avoid questionable military deployments around the world without political repercussions.
I think Kostunica and Tadic are finding their political voice, and a truer sense of the Serbian mentality and historical tradition.
No doubt, as politicians, they have sensed the will of the people.
Nevertheless, Nato is becoming a relic in place of the EU, and I will bid "bon voyage," as in the last ten years, it has become a destabilizing force in the world in the face of the void that was creating when the cold war ended.
A resurgent Russia, China and EU are putting an end to American Imperialism.
Princip, tell us something we don't know--required? Joining NATO is, first of all, Serbia's choice and neither NATO nor any other country can decide for Serbia what it should do.
Jacques, let me ask you a question: what does it mean for a country to be neutral? Unless you can enlighten us, the term is rather silly these days, actually void of any meaning. Please, tell me neutral from what?
I agree with Ment, and I do not know where Ment is from but these are the types of mature positions needed in the Balkans these days.
I have a hunch Tex is right. The fact is that many politicians in countries in NATO provoke Russia for domestic political gain. This is annoying to many other NATO members, but the Russian government's public reaction is to criticize the whole organization--an action also designed for mere domestic political gain. The situation of the DS is tenuous given that Serbia needs continued Russian support on Kosovo, and given that the DSS are using the anti-NATO card as a way to keep their numbers from slipping and losing support to the Radicals.
Adrian you make a good point since NATO does not need bases in Serbia. It already has a strong presence in much more strategic areas. For those that still think that Serbia is the most geostrategic place on earth (or anywhere close to it), I will ask you to pull your head out of the ground and open your eyes.
I've criticized NATO many times--it has made mistakes and miscalculations in the Balkans, but I fully support Serbian (and Montenegrin) entry into NATO. It is just plain good for their security interests and it will help build peace and confidence in the region.
It will take some time to inform the public in SER and CG about what NATO is and what it does. We actually have a few years to talk about the costs and benefits of joining NATO.
In any case, whether you are for or against NATO accession, it is in many ways premature to talk about whether SER and CG should join NATO since the fact is that both countries are many years away from meeting the necessary criteria to join.
In the meantime, Serbia should work within PfP and it should go forward with efforts to modernize and reform its security sector--it is something that is good for Serbia whether it joins NATO or not. It should encourage intelligent debate on NATO so that the public is well informed.
The best advice anyone could give to Serbia is that regardless of Serbia's desire to join NATO, Serbia should work to give itself the real choice of joining or not joining NATO when the real time to decide arrives.
Since you lumped us all in one category (provocative), I wanted to clarify that the Serbian government is entitled to do whatever it thinks is right for Serbia.
I'm personally not concerned too much whether Serbia joins NATO or not, I just commented that some of the comments (we will never forget 1999, you bombed us etc.) sounded irrational, when considering the circumstances of that time period.
Now, you may say Serbia's affairs should not concern Albanians, but unfortunately Serbia is not in the Sahara or the Siberian tundra... it is next door. Not very long ago, Serbia was run by some pretty irrational folks with heavy consequences for the entire region and peoples, Albanians among them.
Btw... the reasons there are no Serbs in Tirana are:
1. Serbia was never a province of Albania
2. I guess most Serbs are generally not interested in coming. It's not like anyone is trying to stop you.
Mr. Jeremic, when you said "Serbia will never be able to forget the tragic events of 1999,", then you should be able to understand how Albanians feel.
"We will never be able to forget the tragic events of 1999,"
"Tex why should Serbia join NATO when it could join an emerging SCO? It seems to me the goals of SCO are more relevant to Serbia than NATO?
"
Because you would have no more neighbours then? If you would go to bed with the russkies , it would be over with any support from Romania , Slovakia or any other european country , because we hate the soviets!
Amazing how the daily provocative comments keep coming from albanain posters.
Why are you guys concerned about what Serbia will decide to do in the future? it becomes so annoying because it doesn't even concern you, yet you pretend to be all involved in the Serbian government. And then what's worse, next come albanian predictions about what is going to happen in Serbia???
Can one albanian poster tell me why there is albanians in Beograd if you don't want to do anything with Serbia? And then tell me how many Serbs are living in albania?
You can do one thing though - forget about stealing our land.
The argument that because NATO bombed you, that's why you should not join it is rather silly.
By that logic, Germany and Italy should have never joined NATO since they were bombed by the Allied forces in WWII. Neither should Greece have joined NATO because Italy and Germany invaded it before and killed thousands of them.
In any case, the Serbs know best what's good for them. Good luck with this ...
Serbia decision to skip the possibility of joining NATO is amazing people in Brussels.
Although Serbia will face tough time with the European Commission as they are trying to conclude the SAA.
Dark days are ahead of Serbia since the Kosova will be free.
I think this is conected with Russia support, after few months when Russia will not be needed for Serbia, the Serbian government will apply for NATO membership.
Well , i agree with you! It must be your own countries decision.
For NATO it doesn`t make really a difference , since Serbia is a small , landlocked country and there will be soon enough NATO-presence in the region.
If Tito ever did anything of any value for Yugoslavia it was his ability to follow the course of neutrality in a time of highley polarized world politics.
If Serbian political leaders had any sense they would keep well away from the PIP and NATO and in other words stay neutral
It is a poisonous chalice with the only beneficiary being the US of A and their arms industry.
If Tito ever did anything of any value for Yugoslavia it was his ability to follow the course of neutrality in a time of highley polarized world politics.
If Serbian political leaders had any sense they would keep well away from the PIP and NATO and in other words stay neutral
It is a poisonous chalice with the only beneficiary being the US of A and their arms industry.
Amazing how the daily provocative comments keep coming from albanain posters.
Why are you guys concerned about what Serbia will decide to do in the future? it becomes so annoying because it doesn't even concern you, yet you pretend to be all involved in the Serbian government. And then what's worse, next come albanian predictions about what is going to happen in Serbia???
Can one albanian poster tell me why there is albanians in Beograd if you don't want to do anything with Serbia? And then tell me how many Serbs are living in albania?
You can do one thing though - forget about stealing our land.
Well , i agree with you! It must be your own countries decision.
For NATO it doesn`t make really a difference , since Serbia is a small , landlocked country and there will be soon enough NATO-presence in the region.
I think this is conected with Russia support, after few months when Russia will not be needed for Serbia, the Serbian government will apply for NATO membership.
Serbia decision to skip the possibility of joining NATO is amazing people in Brussels.
Although Serbia will face tough time with the European Commission as they are trying to conclude the SAA.
Dark days are ahead of Serbia since the Kosova will be free.
The argument that because NATO bombed you, that's why you should not join it is rather silly.
By that logic, Germany and Italy should have never joined NATO since they were bombed by the Allied forces in WWII. Neither should Greece have joined NATO because Italy and Germany invaded it before and killed thousands of them.
In any case, the Serbs know best what's good for them. Good luck with this ...
Great move! This will give our country more freedom to avoid questionable military deployments around the world without political repercussions.
I think Kostunica and Tadic are finding their political voice, and a truer sense of the Serbian mentality and historical tradition.
No doubt, as politicians, they have sensed the will of the people.
Nevertheless, Nato is becoming a relic in place of the EU, and I will bid "bon voyage," as in the last ten years, it has become a destabilizing force in the world in the face of the void that was creating when the cold war ended.
A resurgent Russia, China and EU are putting an end to American Imperialism.
Mr. Jeremic, when you said "Serbia will never be able to forget the tragic events of 1999,", then you should be able to understand how Albanians feel.
"We will never be able to forget the tragic events of 1999,"
Since you lumped us all in one category (provocative), I wanted to clarify that the Serbian government is entitled to do whatever it thinks is right for Serbia.
I'm personally not concerned too much whether Serbia joins NATO or not, I just commented that some of the comments (we will never forget 1999, you bombed us etc.) sounded irrational, when considering the circumstances of that time period.
Now, you may say Serbia's affairs should not concern Albanians, but unfortunately Serbia is not in the Sahara or the Siberian tundra... it is next door. Not very long ago, Serbia was run by some pretty irrational folks with heavy consequences for the entire region and peoples, Albanians among them.
Btw... the reasons there are no Serbs in Tirana are:
1. Serbia was never a province of Albania
2. I guess most Serbs are generally not interested in coming. It's not like anyone is trying to stop you.
Princip, tell us something we don't know--required? Joining NATO is, first of all, Serbia's choice and neither NATO nor any other country can decide for Serbia what it should do.
Jacques, let me ask you a question: what does it mean for a country to be neutral? Unless you can enlighten us, the term is rather silly these days, actually void of any meaning. Please, tell me neutral from what?
I agree with Ment, and I do not know where Ment is from but these are the types of mature positions needed in the Balkans these days.
I have a hunch Tex is right. The fact is that many politicians in countries in NATO provoke Russia for domestic political gain. This is annoying to many other NATO members, but the Russian government's public reaction is to criticize the whole organization--an action also designed for mere domestic political gain. The situation of the DS is tenuous given that Serbia needs continued Russian support on Kosovo, and given that the DSS are using the anti-NATO card as a way to keep their numbers from slipping and losing support to the Radicals.
Adrian you make a good point since NATO does not need bases in Serbia. It already has a strong presence in much more strategic areas. For those that still think that Serbia is the most geostrategic place on earth (or anywhere close to it), I will ask you to pull your head out of the ground and open your eyes.
I've criticized NATO many times--it has made mistakes and miscalculations in the Balkans, but I fully support Serbian (and Montenegrin) entry into NATO. It is just plain good for their security interests and it will help build peace and confidence in the region.
It will take some time to inform the public in SER and CG about what NATO is and what it does. We actually have a few years to talk about the costs and benefits of joining NATO.
In any case, whether you are for or against NATO accession, it is in many ways premature to talk about whether SER and CG should join NATO since the fact is that both countries are many years away from meeting the necessary criteria to join.
In the meantime, Serbia should work within PfP and it should go forward with efforts to modernize and reform its security sector--it is something that is good for Serbia whether it joins NATO or not. It should encourage intelligent debate on NATO so that the public is well informed.
The best advice anyone could give to Serbia is that regardless of Serbia's desire to join NATO, Serbia should work to give itself the real choice of joining or not joining NATO when the real time to decide arrives.
Serbia should cooperate with NATO as much as humanly possible but as far as actual membership is concerned a thorough cost/benefit analysis must be performed to determine whether Serbia will come out ahead in the equation.Austria,Sweden,switzerland etc. never needed NATO and even though France is a member it has always gone against NATO when it was in her interest to do so.Even today many NATO countries do not put their soldiers in actual jeopardy for Bush's follies.No country is ever going to attack the European homeland except for internal threats like the Islamists who got arrested today in Germany and Denmark.Europe's security problems are all internal due to the fact it is overflowing with Islamists.
Austria is not in NATO and they are surrounded by NATO countries. So what is the difference if Serbia joins the EU and not Nato. What makes Austria so special. Why should Serbia spend billions of pounds paying american arms for NATO standard weopans when they can spend it on areas that need it most. The kalanishkov is better than the UK SA80 assault rifle. If Serbias position is not that important than why did Rambouilet demand Nato can pass through and build bases in Serbia. Serbia does not have the money to spend on NATO standard weopanry, save it for building roads and infrastructure.
This is an interesting change of events.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/05/america/serbia.php?WT.mc_id=rssfrontpage
Serbia is now threatening to use force is Kosovo becomes independent. I'm sure the West and Albanians are shaking as the earth trembles under the Serbian army boots.
In case of Serbia, NATO attacked civilians for a few months killing up to 2000 innocent civilians; NATO bombed a TV studio in Belgrade, murdering more than dozen journalists... NATO also provided and is still providing cover for Albanian extremists in Kosovo to murder the Serbs, destroy Orthodox churches, force out at gun/knife point entire Serb population (save for a few elderly Serbs who are unable to move). In Croatia, NATO supported the Croat regime in the biggest ethnic extermination (of Serbs) in Europe since the end of WWII. In ex-Bosnia, NATO supported ethnic extermination of Serbs from two biggest cities, i.e. Sarajevo and Mostar, which are nowadays practicaly Serb-free.
If Serbia had a choice it would be advised to stay neutral in forthcoming conflict between Russia and USA. EU is big too, but in terms of its impact on foreign policy, it still is only a big satellite.
Extermination? no extermination was what happened in Srebrenica and as I recall, serbia was the one that had massive concentration camps at places like Omarska. Babic ordered evacuation of Krajina a few days before Storm. that is a fact that cant be argued. There are things which cannot be twisted so you can make urself a victim. If anything it makes u sound uneducated
Principe you will never forget what NATO did in 1999 you joking no? For that you got to blame you'r goverment ,and for the memo your goverment and your people you know how much demage cost to whole ex yugoslavia in number of live's and material destruction seen to me you don't have clues ,maybe not because in 90 to 99 the RTS was so blind and that left serbia in big debt.And hold and see what will happening later in the years come, for all the dameges what serbia did to the EX... IT WILL PAY MONETARY same like germans who and still pay out the jews for they crimes in WWII... And this is in to a international law and can apply for any state who can prove a destruction and genocide from other state...
'Serbia will never forget the tragic events of 1999'.
What about the atrocities Serbs are responsible for in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo? Forgotten already? Serbia has no right at all to speak in this way. We should not forget that Serbia has the main responsibility for the violence on the Balkans, by trying to strip parts of Croatia and Bosnia. Strange to hear the same people who wanted to create the Great Serbia by taking taking territory from other sovereign states, are now talking about respect for international law and standards. It is more than ridiculous.
"Tex why should Serbia join NATO when it could join an emerging SCO? It seems to me the goals of SCO are more relevant to Serbia than NATO?
"
Because you would have no more neighbours then? If you would go to bed with the russkies , it would be over with any support from Romania , Slovakia or any other european country , because we hate the soviets!
"What makes Austria so special?" Mark, is this a serious question?
Austria, unlike Serbia, has been rich and democratic for decades. It is surrounded by safe and well-meaning neighbors--name just one with a border dispute.
Serbia, my friend, is not Austria, it is not CH, it is not Ireland, Finland or Sweden--unlike any of these countries, it is a country in political and economic transition surrounded by former rivals and enemies, all of which will have joined NATO in short time. This last point is one motivator for Serbia getting into NATO, not staying out! Do not expect Russia or Greece to come to Serbia's rescue in case anything heavy ever comes down again. Skeptical Serbs really have to wake up and realize that NATO will be its best security guarantee.
As far as Serbia being forced to buy Western arms to NATO--this is not true. Some countries will try to push these on Serbia, but Serbia has every right to say no, and use its materiel of choice. There is nothing in NATO that forces a country to buy something it does not want or need. Look at the large amount of ex-Warsaw Pact equipment that is still used in the newer NATO countries. Of course, some countries went out of their way in buying Western equipment to cozy up to the Americans or to try to get a Western face lift of sorts, but this is not expected or required from Serbia or anyone else. Of course, a lot of the Western equipment was just simply better quality so this was also a motivator for many countries to purchase it, but at the end of the day, Serb mission requirements will determine Serb arms purchases. And if you know anything about NATO, it is clear that Serbia will determine its level of participation in NATO and PfP and not the other way around.
No need to rush into joining NATO. Military alliances can often become very entangled.
People act like it’s a choice between East and West, and it doesn’t have to be. Serbia, can and will be that bridge. Its our destiny, geographically, historically and spiritually.
Besides, joining NATO will offend our good friend Russia more than not joining would offend our friends in Europe.
Jorge you made some very good points the other day in regards to the benefits of reform and civilian oversight, and hopefully Serbia will learn what they need from the PfP and go on from there. Ment is an Albanian, but I completely agree the Balkans needs more level headed people like him. I’ve been very impressed with his ideas and he has my deep respect, even when we strongly disagree. If everyone in the Balkans were like him, we would not be in the mess we currently are.
Knez, thanks for your feedback. I agree Serbia could be a bridge between east and west (although these lines are becoming blurred) but it does not mean it can't join NATO to do so. On the contrary, I would argue that Serbia would play a stronger role as a bridge and facilitator within NATO than outside it. It may even be more beneficial to Russia to have Serbian sympathizers within NATO than outside it.
As far as NATO being an instrument of the US, this is completely false. Look at the disagreements over Russia and strategic missile defense, or at the positions on Kosovo status, or caveats in AFG. They are very different and it causes unease, but that is normal to have differences, and to work them out. What it does show is that not even the US can tell NATO what it can do. The US has a lot of pull in NATO, but even the very small countries have teeth--that is the nature of a consensus-oriented organization. It is actually quite beneficial to smaller countries such as Serbia.
(I knew Ment was Albanian, but was not sure from where.)
I still think joining NATO is picking sides, when we shouldn’t be forced to choose. I also want to know where Ment lives and where he grew up. He’s so damn reasonable, I’m nearly convinced he lives in the West.
Amazing how the daily provocative comments keep coming from albanain posters.
Why are you guys concerned about what Serbia will decide to do in the future? it becomes so annoying because it doesn't even concern you, yet you pretend to be all involved in the Serbian government. And then what's worse, next come albanian predictions about what is going to happen in Serbia???
Can one albanian poster tell me why there is albanians in Beograd if you don't want to do anything with Serbia? And then tell me how many Serbs are living in albania?
You can do one thing though - forget about stealing our land.
In case of Serbia, NATO attacked civilians for a few months killing up to 2000 innocent civilians; NATO bombed a TV studio in Belgrade, murdering more than dozen journalists... NATO also provided and is still providing cover for Albanian extremists in Kosovo to murder the Serbs, destroy Orthodox churches, force out at gun/knife point entire Serb population (save for a few elderly Serbs who are unable to move). In Croatia, NATO supported the Croat regime in the biggest ethnic extermination (of Serbs) in Europe since the end of WWII. In ex-Bosnia, NATO supported ethnic extermination of Serbs from two biggest cities, i.e. Sarajevo and Mostar, which are nowadays practicaly Serb-free.
If Serbia had a choice it would be advised to stay neutral in forthcoming conflict between Russia and USA. EU is big too, but in terms of its impact on foreign policy, it still is only a big satellite.
If Tito ever did anything of any value for Yugoslavia it was his ability to follow the course of neutrality in a time of highley polarized world politics.
If Serbian political leaders had any sense they would keep well away from the PIP and NATO and in other words stay neutral
It is a poisonous chalice with the only beneficiary being the US of A and their arms industry.
Well , i agree with you! It must be your own countries decision.
For NATO it doesn`t make really a difference , since Serbia is a small , landlocked country and there will be soon enough NATO-presence in the region.
I think this is conected with Russia support, after few months when Russia will not be needed for Serbia, the Serbian government will apply for NATO membership.
Serbia decision to skip the possibility of joining NATO is amazing people in Brussels.
Although Serbia will face tough time with the European Commission as they are trying to conclude the SAA.
Dark days are ahead of Serbia since the Kosova will be free.
The argument that because NATO bombed you, that's why you should not join it is rather silly.
By that logic, Germany and Italy should have never joined NATO since they were bombed by the Allied forces in WWII. Neither should Greece have joined NATO because Italy and Germany invaded it before and killed thousands of them.
In any case, the Serbs know best what's good for them. Good luck with this ...
"Tex why should Serbia join NATO when it could join an emerging SCO? It seems to me the goals of SCO are more relevant to Serbia than NATO?
"
Because you would have no more neighbours then? If you would go to bed with the russkies , it would be over with any support from Romania , Slovakia or any other european country , because we hate the soviets!
Mr. Jeremic, when you said "Serbia will never be able to forget the tragic events of 1999,", then you should be able to understand how Albanians feel.
"We will never be able to forget the tragic events of 1999,"
Great move! This will give our country more freedom to avoid questionable military deployments around the world without political repercussions.
I think Kostunica and Tadic are finding their political voice, and a truer sense of the Serbian mentality and historical tradition.
No doubt, as politicians, they have sensed the will of the people.
Nevertheless, Nato is becoming a relic in place of the EU, and I will bid "bon voyage," as in the last ten years, it has become a destabilizing force in the world in the face of the void that was creating when the cold war ended.
A resurgent Russia, China and EU are putting an end to American Imperialism.
Since you lumped us all in one category (provocative), I wanted to clarify that the Serbian government is entitled to do whatever it thinks is right for Serbia.
I'm personally not concerned too much whether Serbia joins NATO or not, I just commented that some of the comments (we will never forget 1999, you bombed us etc.) sounded irrational, when considering the circumstances of that time period.
Now, you may say Serbia's affairs should not concern Albanians, but unfortunately Serbia is not in the Sahara or the Siberian tundra... it is next door. Not very long ago, Serbia was run by some pretty irrational folks with heavy consequences for the entire region and peoples, Albanians among them.
Btw... the reasons there are no Serbs in Tirana are:
1. Serbia was never a province of Albania
2. I guess most Serbs are generally not interested in coming. It's not like anyone is trying to stop you.
Princip, tell us something we don't know--required? Joining NATO is, first of all, Serbia's choice and neither NATO nor any other country can decide for Serbia what it should do.
Jacques, let me ask you a question: what does it mean for a country to be neutral? Unless you can enlighten us, the term is rather silly these days, actually void of any meaning. Please, tell me neutral from what?
I agree with Ment, and I do not know where Ment is from but these are the types of mature positions needed in the Balkans these days.
I have a hunch Tex is right. The fact is that many politicians in countries in NATO provoke Russia for domestic political gain. This is annoying to many other NATO members, but the Russian government's public reaction is to criticize the whole organization--an action also designed for mere domestic political gain. The situation of the DS is tenuous given that Serbia needs continued Russian support on Kosovo, and given that the DSS are using the anti-NATO card as a way to keep their numbers from slipping and losing support to the Radicals.
Adrian you make a good point since NATO does not need bases in Serbia. It already has a strong presence in much more strategic areas. For those that still think that Serbia is the most geostrategic place on earth (or anywhere close to it), I will ask you to pull your head out of the ground and open your eyes.
I've criticized NATO many times--it has made mistakes and miscalculations in the Balkans, but I fully support Serbian (and Montenegrin) entry into NATO. It is just plain good for their security interests and it will help build peace and confidence in the region.
It will take some time to inform the public in SER and CG about what NATO is and what it does. We actually have a few years to talk about the costs and benefits of joining NATO.
In any case, whether you are for or against NATO accession, it is in many ways premature to talk about whether SER and CG should join NATO since the fact is that both countries are many years away from meeting the necessary criteria to join.
In the meantime, Serbia should work within PfP and it should go forward with efforts to modernize and reform its security sector--it is something that is good for Serbia whether it joins NATO or not. It should encourage intelligent debate on NATO so that the public is well informed.
The best advice anyone could give to Serbia is that regardless of Serbia's desire to join NATO, Serbia should work to give itself the real choice of joining or not joining NATO when the real time to decide arrives.
Serbia should cooperate with NATO as much as humanly possible but as far as actual membership is concerned a thorough cost/benefit analysis must be performed to determine whether Serbia will come out ahead in the equation.Austria,Sweden,switzerland etc. never needed NATO and even though France is a member it has always gone against NATO when it was in her interest to do so.Even today many NATO countries do not put their soldiers in actual jeopardy for Bush's follies.No country is ever going to attack the European homeland except for internal threats like the Islamists who got arrested today in Germany and Denmark.Europe's security problems are all internal due to the fact it is overflowing with Islamists.
Austria is not in NATO and they are surrounded by NATO countries. So what is the difference if Serbia joins the EU and not Nato. What makes Austria so special. Why should Serbia spend billions of pounds paying american arms for NATO standard weopans when they can spend it on areas that need it most. The kalanishkov is better than the UK SA80 assault rifle. If Serbias position is not that important than why did Rambouilet demand Nato can pass through and build bases in Serbia. Serbia does not have the money to spend on NATO standard weopanry, save it for building roads and infrastructure.
This is an interesting change of events.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/05/america/serbia.php?WT.mc_id=rssfrontpage
Serbia is now threatening to use force is Kosovo becomes independent. I'm sure the West and Albanians are shaking as the earth trembles under the Serbian army boots.
Extermination? no extermination was what happened in Srebrenica and as I recall, serbia was the one that had massive concentration camps at places like Omarska. Babic ordered evacuation of Krajina a few days before Storm. that is a fact that cant be argued. There are things which cannot be twisted so you can make urself a victim. If anything it makes u sound uneducated
"What makes Austria so special?" Mark, is this a serious question?
Austria, unlike Serbia, has been rich and democratic for decades. It is surrounded by safe and well-meaning neighbors--name just one with a border dispute.
Serbia, my friend, is not Austria, it is not CH, it is not Ireland, Finland or Sweden--unlike any of these countries, it is a country in political and economic transition surrounded by former rivals and enemies, all of which will have joined NATO in short time. This last point is one motivator for Serbia getting into NATO, not staying out! Do not expect Russia or Greece to come to Serbia's rescue in case anything heavy ever comes down again. Skeptical Serbs really have to wake up and realize that NATO will be its best security guarantee.
As far as Serbia being forced to buy Western arms to NATO--this is not true. Some countries will try to push these on Serbia, but Serbia has every right to say no, and use its materiel of choice. There is nothing in NATO that forces a country to buy something it does not want or need. Look at the large amount of ex-Warsaw Pact equipment that is still used in the newer NATO countries. Of course, some countries went out of their way in buying Western equipment to cozy up to the Americans or to try to get a Western face lift of sorts, but this is not expected or required from Serbia or anyone else. Of course, a lot of the Western equipment was just simply better quality so this was also a motivator for many countries to purchase it, but at the end of the day, Serb mission requirements will determine Serb arms purchases. And if you know anything about NATO, it is clear that Serbia will determine its level of participation in NATO and PfP and not the other way around.
No need to rush into joining NATO. Military alliances can often become very entangled.
People act like it’s a choice between East and West, and it doesn’t have to be. Serbia, can and will be that bridge. Its our destiny, geographically, historically and spiritually.
Besides, joining NATO will offend our good friend Russia more than not joining would offend our friends in Europe.
Jorge you made some very good points the other day in regards to the benefits of reform and civilian oversight, and hopefully Serbia will learn what they need from the PfP and go on from there. Ment is an Albanian, but I completely agree the Balkans needs more level headed people like him. I’ve been very impressed with his ideas and he has my deep respect, even when we strongly disagree. If everyone in the Balkans were like him, we would not be in the mess we currently are.
Principe you will never forget what NATO did in 1999 you joking no? For that you got to blame you'r goverment ,and for the memo your goverment and your people you know how much demage cost to whole ex yugoslavia in number of live's and material destruction seen to me you don't have clues ,maybe not because in 90 to 99 the RTS was so blind and that left serbia in big debt.And hold and see what will happening later in the years come, for all the dameges what serbia did to the EX... IT WILL PAY MONETARY same like germans who and still pay out the jews for they crimes in WWII... And this is in to a international law and can apply for any state who can prove a destruction and genocide from other state...
'Serbia will never forget the tragic events of 1999'.
What about the atrocities Serbs are responsible for in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo? Forgotten already? Serbia has no right at all to speak in this way. We should not forget that Serbia has the main responsibility for the violence on the Balkans, by trying to strip parts of Croatia and Bosnia. Strange to hear the same people who wanted to create the Great Serbia by taking taking territory from other sovereign states, are now talking about respect for international law and standards. It is more than ridiculous.
Knez, thanks for your feedback. I agree Serbia could be a bridge between east and west (although these lines are becoming blurred) but it does not mean it can't join NATO to do so. On the contrary, I would argue that Serbia would play a stronger role as a bridge and facilitator within NATO than outside it. It may even be more beneficial to Russia to have Serbian sympathizers within NATO than outside it.
As far as NATO being an instrument of the US, this is completely false. Look at the disagreements over Russia and strategic missile defense, or at the positions on Kosovo status, or caveats in AFG. They are very different and it causes unease, but that is normal to have differences, and to work them out. What it does show is that not even the US can tell NATO what it can do. The US has a lot of pull in NATO, but even the very small countries have teeth--that is the nature of a consensus-oriented organization. It is actually quite beneficial to smaller countries such as Serbia.
(I knew Ment was Albanian, but was not sure from where.)
I still think joining NATO is picking sides, when we shouldn’t be forced to choose. I also want to know where Ment lives and where he grew up. He’s so damn reasonable, I’m nearly convinced he lives in the West.
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