For those having doubts of the future of INDEPENDENT Kosovo/a:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=BW&date=20070905&id=7419118
“Also, further to illegal arguments, there was no law that forced Allies to declare war on Germany in ww2, it was common sense.” Absolutely it is common sense that a nation under attack would defend itself. Yugoslavia had every right to self defence which was denied by NATO. It was Germany if you know the history of WWII that did the attacking in many cases without declaring war. You need to trace the events that led to the Yugoslav conflict to see who is responsible for what. You cannot expect the Helsinki accord to apply selectively. it must be applied uniformly not as an agenda of NATO applied selectively to achieve regime and economic change. The two links provide information that you obviously refuse to annualize. http://www.swans.com/library/art9/dianaj01.html
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10258
You provide three examples of speeches like Milosevic’s speech in Kosovo as an example of nationalism where even the Hague tribunal was not able to fabricate a single word that did not apply to the defense of all Yugoslavs. You provide a speech by Karadzic which warns of impending catastrophe for Mini Yugoslavia (Bosnia). He feared what happened. From the first bullets that killed guests at a Serbian wedding in Sarajevo those who unilaterally abrogated the Helsinki Accord by unilaterally recognizing Slovenia and Croatia (Germany) are first and foremost responsible.
Karaddgic in a CIA taped speech played at The Hague was overheard speaking with Milosevic. Milosevic: “You must do everything in your power to stop the people from Rising. Karadzic: I will do everything that I can but Iset wants war and whatever I do will be too late”
As for Colic’s speech I am not familiar with it but I am familiar with “BMA, led by Naser Oric, Hakija (Husein) Meholjic, Zulfo "Suceska" Tursunovic and Akif (Enez) Ustic have attacked several Bosnian Serb villages in Srebrenica's area. The following Bosnian Serbs villages were burned and destroyed: Osredak May 1992, Oparke June 01,1992 , Zagora July 05,1992 , Zalezje July 12, 1992 Pajici and Hrahna July 25, 1992 , Brezani July 30, 1992 , Fakovici October 1992, Kravice January 07, 1993 (Christmas Day for the Orthodox Bosnian Serbs)” so Colic’s speech is understandable. You need to see this article from Dani, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Hercegovina, June 22 1998 http://www.ex-yupress.com/dani/dani2.html to understand the Bosnian agenda.
It is very interesting what Carlos Martins Branco United nations official from Spain has to say about Srebrenica and don’t dismiss this as Serb propaganda since it is a Serbian web page but tell us where it is in error. Go to the link below.
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Bosnia/Srebrenica/Branco.html
You Kalifornian write of one standard of international law for one nation and American agenda for everyone else. Yugoslavia asked to have international law apply to its independence as a UN member in good standing and an example to much of the world where ethnic groups lived and shared a common identity. International law was subverted by NATO for its own agenda. Serbia continues to ask for the protection of International law just like Yugoslavia did but it is not in the interest of those who broke up Yugoslavia in the first place to observe this law because it requires multilateral decisions and is contrary to NATO agenda.
To all those who expressed their worries about MR Zobel's future career: He will be rewarded with one of Germany's top diplomatic posts in Brussels with the EU. There he will have quite a big say in the EU's policy towards countries aspiring to join.
- Sorry for those, who cannot prevent themselves from bashing those who act like honest critics! MR Zobel was right to point to the importance of Serbia's economic development.
Kalifornian
Walter, if Serbia respected any law, including its own adopted laws of yugoslavia, Serbia wouldn't have murdered 8000 men and boys of Srebrenica. When serbia follows its own laws, then they can expect all nations of this world to respect int'l law as it may apply to serbia. Otherwise, the world recognizes the laws that applies to nations who break laws, like that nasty thing called genocide and right to self determination.
Please, PLEASE, tell me in which part of Serbia is Srebrenica?
' In a world with no more legal barriers to might proclaiming itself right, there was nothing to stop a a "serbian" president from using military force to crush every conceivable adversary"(Until the serbs met up with their formidable foe..Int'l Law .. Helsinki's right of self determination).
You realize this thought is interchangeable for serbia too. As Srebia thought it could use its military might against its own civilian minorities. It is explicitly for this reason alone serbia was bombed 78 days straight, just to let their people know the plight of their minorities under the same bombardment by your belgrade leaders, and the price to pay for such abrogation of THAT SAME INT'L LAW, these same serbian leaders like to call out against those who use it to stop serbian aggression and expansion.
So you are telling me the the germans are responsible for:
- Milosevic speech and removal of Kosovo autonomy towards end of 80's
- Colonel Colic's speech in Prijedor: "...the Serb people needs to take vengeance, to avenge all the crimes committed against them"
- Karadzics parliamentary speech in 1991:
"If you embark upon the road which will take you to hell, it is a road that Slovenia and Croatia have already taken, what may happen is that you disappear because the Muslim people in Bosnia-Herzegovina has no arms, has no army of its own, and if it continues along this road, it will witness bloodshed and probably disappearance from these parts. "
- The PUBLISHED (May 12 1992) 6xstrategic goals for serbian people in BiH which include:
separating serbs and non-serbs, ensure access to the sea, seize territory in order to connect all serb parts.
- early RS Constitution said that RS is a state of serb people only, with no mention of minorities.
Now, when you consider all this (and I havent mentioned the attrocities commited), do you really think that serbia can be trusted as a law-abiding nation? there will be an arguement that this was Bosnian Serbs and not Serbia, but telephone conversations and documents prove that this early on, Milosevic and Karadzic were strongly linked, as they wanted to form a new Yugoslavia. Granted as time went on, the link became more loose but this early on, it was very strong.
And also, if serbs want to argue "this isnt serbs from serbia" then its hypocritical at best.
NATO acted to stop whats happened in Bosnia happening in Kosovo. UN Security Council hasnt been effective at all in stopping the war. Does anyone remember the Dutch troops in Srebrenica under so called "UN umbrella". Reality is UNSC had no guts to do anything and you can argue that NATO is illegal, but it was right. Serbia didnt follow the law the letter back then so its unrealistic to take it seriously when its trying to use the law to solve something it did illegally itself. Remember, serbs broke the mother of all laws FIRST-human rights. So once u break a law, dont expect a response within laws. In any case, since when did land become more important than people on the land?
Also, further to illegal arguments, there was no law that forced Allies to declare war on Germany in ww2, it was common sense.
Well it is up to Serbia to do whatever they want WITHIN Serbia.
As far WALTER'S comment is concerned, just for your info, Afghanistan has not been attacked on "moral grounds" but it was a military response to an attack that took place within the USA.
It is a shame that the rest of the world does not see what a threat the Middle Eastern terrorism poses for Western culture. But that is not the issue here.
Anyways, you are so quick to judge the Germans or Americans, but unfortunately, not only you but most of the Serb posters, have no decency to addmit to the crimes commited in your name and apologize.
And one more question for Walter:How in the hell did Albanians manage to expell 250.000 Serbs from Kosovo, considering that the Croats had to coordinate and plan for months, with their well equiped army, to execute the Krajina cleansing (300.000 people), whereas Albanian KLA was fighting against superior Serb army,police and other paramilitary formations only with outdated weaponry?!!!
I would love to get an answer not only from Walter but whomever.
To Canadian:
USA and EU are getting exhausted from Kosovo issue???
Interesting point of wiev. I would have asked you to elaborate but your comments don't make any sense so I will ask you to think once again about this. They have people, resources and god knows that they have patience (after all they don't have to live in this bad dream as we do). Whereas Serbia...well, NO COMMENT.When will the persecution of Serbs stop? Truly our reward in heaven is great!
(prince lazar, novi sad, 2. September 2007 22:59)
You can have it my friend.You dig your heels deeper by all means.
I personally am interested to get it in this life.
One more thing though Serbia is not CHINA nor Kosova Taiwan.
"I don´t know where you get your information from, but, didn´t you know that a few months ago even the socalled international court of justice made it quite clear that Serbia had nothing to do with the Srebrenica-events?
.....
(Jovan, 2. September 2007 20:33)"
Jovan, stop pretending to be a patriot for once and face the truth. Also your PR efforts are very week. The court did not punish the Serbian nation as a perpetrator. That is very different from saying that high ranked Serbian officials in the Government, Parliament, Judical Branch, Army, Military and security forces are found guilty and being prosecuted for their crimes. Very different.
If we were to follow your logic, then thousands of people decided to commit massive suicides at the same time in the same place, and after they killed themselves somehow magically they managed to bury themselves in massive graves. Those who fortunately decided not to kill themselves decided to ethnically cleanse themselves out of joy that they were going to live. And in all these killings the Serbian soldiers and high official were mere spectators who just out pure coincidence happened to be in the same place where all these thousands of suicides and hundreds of thousands ethnic cleansed people were.
I am not trying to convince you. An extremist or zealot will never admit he is wrong since all his world revolves around the idea that he is right and the rest of the world is wrong.
You are right KALIFORNIAN we “Don't expect any nation to treat serbia like a law abiding nation” SINCE THEY NEVER DID and since those nations that you protect use international law to achieve their global agenda by breaking it every day. Open your eyes and see the trees in the forest of Mainstream Media lies. As Diana Johnstone writes “The bombing of Yugoslavia marked a turning point in the expansion of U.S. military hegemony. For the first time, a European country was subjected to the type of U.S. intervention usually reserved for Central America. It also marked the end of Germany's postwar inhibition about foreign military intervention, and saw Germans returning to the scene of Nazi crimes with a clear conscience. For the first time, NATO abandoned its defensive posture and attacked a country that posed no threat to its member states, outside the NATO treaty area, and without seeking UN Security Council authorization. International law was circumvented in the name of an alleged higher moral imperative. A precedent was set. When the United States subsequently arrogated the right to bomb and invade Afghanistan on moral grounds, its NATO allies could only meekly offer to tag along. In a world with no more legal barriers to might proclaiming itself right, there was nothing to stop a U.S. president from using military force to crush every conceivable adversary. “ Your simplistic response without a thread of evidence exposes your limitations first about world history and shamelessly about your own if in fact you are from California.
And the serbs see through these kinds of hypocritical threats. Far from exhausting Serbia, we dig our heels in even more. They should not forget how many "exhausted" serbian soldiers, stood up to a much better armed force of 250,000 german nazi troops plus albanian nazi troops. When will the persecution of Serbs stop? Truly our reward in heaven is great!
"Kalifornian" wrote:
"Walter, if Serbia respected any law, including its own adopted laws of yugoslavia, Serbia wouldn't have murdered 8000 men and boys of Srebrenica."
I don´t know where you get your information from, but, didn´t you know that a few months ago even the socalled international court of justice made it quite clear that Serbia had nothing to do with the Srebrenica-events?
I mean, what must happen until you just once write the truth???
go educate yourself and next time first think than comment.
" If the big picture is EU than the small picture is don’t break international law in order to enforce your agenda. "
Walter, if Serbia respected any law, including its own adopted laws of yugoslavia, Serbia wouldn't have murdered 8000 men and boys of Srebrenica. When serbia follows its own laws, then they can expect all nations of this world to respect int'l law as it may apply to serbia. Otherwise, the world recognizes the laws that applies to nations who break laws, like that nasty thing called genocide and right to self determination.
." When Germany becomes a principled nation and uses international law as a tool of diplomacy then and only then you have a right to advise and criticize. "
Don't expect any nation to treat serbia like a law abiding nation. When Serbia knows it has done everything it could to compensate the victim's families of their heinous acts, then serbia might expect diplomats and ambassadors to treat serbia like a civilized equal. Otherwise, to serbia, bask with the likes of Idi Amin and Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler or Stalin. These uncontrolled murderers are in line in respecting Serbia's philosophy towards minorities and dissenters.
Here are just some politicians and diplomats which are the worst according to the Serbs.
1. Bill Clinton
2. Tony Blair
3. Madeline Albright
4. Jamie Shea
5. Lord Robertson
6. Soren Jessen-Peterson
7. Marti Ahtisari
8. Joachim Ryker
9. Michael Polt
10. German Ambassador Zobel
11 Bernard Kouchner (at times)
From this list it seems that anyone from the western world that does not agree with the views of the Serbian government is the worst diplomat or politician ever. It's so easy to accuse the others and never question your own self and your own views.
Feel free to add to this list.
Ron Taiwan is part of China always was and it should be again. As Formosa it was used in the colonial tug of war just like Hong Kong. Japan Britain and USA created the present status of Taiwan just like NATO has created the present status of Kosovo. This was done for self interest. Taiwan was placed into the hands of Chiang Kai Shek and his murderous regime just like Kosovo was handed over to the KLA. criminals. Hong Kong went back to China as Taiwan should and as Kosovo should go back to Serbia. Thousands of Chinese fled to British Columbia when Hong Kong reverted back to China with billions which they invested in our province and elsewhere, and thanks to that our economy boomed and Hong Kong went into a period of economic decline. When the Chinese who fled with their money realized that China had no intention to change Hong Kong’s status as the financial Capital of Asia the Chinese started to return to Hong Kong. I think the drug lords who are in control of Kosovo and the other criminal elements fear the loss of their ill gotten livelihood and like the Chinese who fled Hong Kong they will have to flee to Albania. Europe continues to destabilize Serbia in order to force partition or independence. Well Tiananmen Square did not work to destabilize china and Serbia will survive the present European pressure since International law ids on her side.
Goodbye and good riddance, Zobel. During your tenure you have managed to reinforce all the very worst stereotypes about Germany, the Germans and German lack of tact. You remain truly the worst diplomat I have ever come across! I just hope that the German MFA thinks long and hard about where to send you next.
Outgoing German Ambassador to Serbia Andreas Zobel says the Kosovo issue is "exhausting Serbia".
Actually not true and in fact the Kosovo issue is exhausting the EU and USA! The idea was to exhaust Serbia but like the NATO war in 1999 they underestimated the Serbs.
Mr. Zobel we can thank Germany for this exhaustion. It was your country that opened the door to this exhaustion after destabilization of Yugoslavia by the IMF and the World Bank. Your country participated with others in the bombing of Serbia to close out the last century. You paid your debts to your WWII allies to hoist this exhaustion on Serbia. You never intended to live by resolution 1224; if you had it would have been implemented ten years ago. It was under your watch that 250 000 Serbs were deprived of their homes in Kosovo. It was your unilateral recognition of Croatia that also led to 300 000 Serbs deprived of their homes in Croatia. Any nation with these kinds of refugee problems and a litany of lies by the Mainstream Media to justify what you have done would be exhausted. If the big picture is EU than the small picture is don’t break international law in order to enforce your agenda. Open Europe’s borders to Kosovo’s excess population so they can find work in your Country and elsewhere but that is exactly what you don’t want. Mr. Zobel and every Albanian who posts here want the principle of majority to apply to them but when Serbs ask for the same principle you and they call it Serbian Nationalism. When Germany becomes a principled nation and uses international law as a tool of diplomacy then and only then you have a right to advise and criticize.
Mr. Zobel we can thank Germany for this exhaustion. It was your country that opened the door to this exhaustion after destabilization of Yugoslavia by the IMF and the World Bank. Your country participated with others in the bombing of Serbia to close out the last century. You paid your debts to your WWII allies to hoist this exhaustion on Serbia. You never intended to live by resolution 1224; if you had it would have been implemented ten years ago. It was under your watch that 250 000 Serbs were deprived of their homes in Kosovo. It was your unilateral recognition of Croatia that also led to 300 000 Serbs deprived of their homes in Croatia. Any nation with these kinds of refugee problems and a litany of lies by the Mainstream Media to justify what you have done would be exhausted. If the big picture is EU than the small picture is don’t break international law in order to enforce your agenda. Open Europe’s borders to Kosovo’s excess population so they can find work in your Country and elsewhere but that is exactly what you don’t want. Mr. Zobel and every Albanian who posts here want the principle of majority to apply to them but when Serbs ask for the same principle you and they call it Serbian Nationalism. When Germany becomes a principled nation and uses international law as a tool of diplomacy then and only then you have a right to advise and criticize.
Goodbye and good riddance, Zobel. During your tenure you have managed to reinforce all the very worst stereotypes about Germany, the Germans and German lack of tact. You remain truly the worst diplomat I have ever come across! I just hope that the German MFA thinks long and hard about where to send you next.
Outgoing German Ambassador to Serbia Andreas Zobel says the Kosovo issue is "exhausting Serbia".
Actually not true and in fact the Kosovo issue is exhausting the EU and USA! The idea was to exhaust Serbia but like the NATO war in 1999 they underestimated the Serbs.
Ron Taiwan is part of China always was and it should be again. As Formosa it was used in the colonial tug of war just like Hong Kong. Japan Britain and USA created the present status of Taiwan just like NATO has created the present status of Kosovo. This was done for self interest. Taiwan was placed into the hands of Chiang Kai Shek and his murderous regime just like Kosovo was handed over to the KLA. criminals. Hong Kong went back to China as Taiwan should and as Kosovo should go back to Serbia. Thousands of Chinese fled to British Columbia when Hong Kong reverted back to China with billions which they invested in our province and elsewhere, and thanks to that our economy boomed and Hong Kong went into a period of economic decline. When the Chinese who fled with their money realized that China had no intention to change Hong Kong’s status as the financial Capital of Asia the Chinese started to return to Hong Kong. I think the drug lords who are in control of Kosovo and the other criminal elements fear the loss of their ill gotten livelihood and like the Chinese who fled Hong Kong they will have to flee to Albania. Europe continues to destabilize Serbia in order to force partition or independence. Well Tiananmen Square did not work to destabilize china and Serbia will survive the present European pressure since International law ids on her side.
"Kalifornian" wrote:
"Walter, if Serbia respected any law, including its own adopted laws of yugoslavia, Serbia wouldn't have murdered 8000 men and boys of Srebrenica."
I don´t know where you get your information from, but, didn´t you know that a few months ago even the socalled international court of justice made it quite clear that Serbia had nothing to do with the Srebrenica-events?
I mean, what must happen until you just once write the truth???
go educate yourself and next time first think than comment.
Here are just some politicians and diplomats which are the worst according to the Serbs.
1. Bill Clinton
2. Tony Blair
3. Madeline Albright
4. Jamie Shea
5. Lord Robertson
6. Soren Jessen-Peterson
7. Marti Ahtisari
8. Joachim Ryker
9. Michael Polt
10. German Ambassador Zobel
11 Bernard Kouchner (at times)
From this list it seems that anyone from the western world that does not agree with the views of the Serbian government is the worst diplomat or politician ever. It's so easy to accuse the others and never question your own self and your own views.
Feel free to add to this list.
You are right KALIFORNIAN we “Don't expect any nation to treat serbia like a law abiding nation” SINCE THEY NEVER DID and since those nations that you protect use international law to achieve their global agenda by breaking it every day. Open your eyes and see the trees in the forest of Mainstream Media lies. As Diana Johnstone writes “The bombing of Yugoslavia marked a turning point in the expansion of U.S. military hegemony. For the first time, a European country was subjected to the type of U.S. intervention usually reserved for Central America. It also marked the end of Germany's postwar inhibition about foreign military intervention, and saw Germans returning to the scene of Nazi crimes with a clear conscience. For the first time, NATO abandoned its defensive posture and attacked a country that posed no threat to its member states, outside the NATO treaty area, and without seeking UN Security Council authorization. International law was circumvented in the name of an alleged higher moral imperative. A precedent was set. When the United States subsequently arrogated the right to bomb and invade Afghanistan on moral grounds, its NATO allies could only meekly offer to tag along. In a world with no more legal barriers to might proclaiming itself right, there was nothing to stop a U.S. president from using military force to crush every conceivable adversary. “ Your simplistic response without a thread of evidence exposes your limitations first about world history and shamelessly about your own if in fact you are from California.
To all those who expressed their worries about MR Zobel's future career: He will be rewarded with one of Germany's top diplomatic posts in Brussels with the EU. There he will have quite a big say in the EU's policy towards countries aspiring to join.
- Sorry for those, who cannot prevent themselves from bashing those who act like honest critics! MR Zobel was right to point to the importance of Serbia's economic development.
" If the big picture is EU than the small picture is don’t break international law in order to enforce your agenda. "
Walter, if Serbia respected any law, including its own adopted laws of yugoslavia, Serbia wouldn't have murdered 8000 men and boys of Srebrenica. When serbia follows its own laws, then they can expect all nations of this world to respect int'l law as it may apply to serbia. Otherwise, the world recognizes the laws that applies to nations who break laws, like that nasty thing called genocide and right to self determination.
." When Germany becomes a principled nation and uses international law as a tool of diplomacy then and only then you have a right to advise and criticize. "
Don't expect any nation to treat serbia like a law abiding nation. When Serbia knows it has done everything it could to compensate the victim's families of their heinous acts, then serbia might expect diplomats and ambassadors to treat serbia like a civilized equal. Otherwise, to serbia, bask with the likes of Idi Amin and Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler or Stalin. These uncontrolled murderers are in line in respecting Serbia's philosophy towards minorities and dissenters.
And the serbs see through these kinds of hypocritical threats. Far from exhausting Serbia, we dig our heels in even more. They should not forget how many "exhausted" serbian soldiers, stood up to a much better armed force of 250,000 german nazi troops plus albanian nazi troops. When will the persecution of Serbs stop? Truly our reward in heaven is great!
"I don´t know where you get your information from, but, didn´t you know that a few months ago even the socalled international court of justice made it quite clear that Serbia had nothing to do with the Srebrenica-events?
.....
(Jovan, 2. September 2007 20:33)"
Jovan, stop pretending to be a patriot for once and face the truth. Also your PR efforts are very week. The court did not punish the Serbian nation as a perpetrator. That is very different from saying that high ranked Serbian officials in the Government, Parliament, Judical Branch, Army, Military and security forces are found guilty and being prosecuted for their crimes. Very different.
If we were to follow your logic, then thousands of people decided to commit massive suicides at the same time in the same place, and after they killed themselves somehow magically they managed to bury themselves in massive graves. Those who fortunately decided not to kill themselves decided to ethnically cleanse themselves out of joy that they were going to live. And in all these killings the Serbian soldiers and high official were mere spectators who just out pure coincidence happened to be in the same place where all these thousands of suicides and hundreds of thousands ethnic cleansed people were.
I am not trying to convince you. An extremist or zealot will never admit he is wrong since all his world revolves around the idea that he is right and the rest of the world is wrong.
Well it is up to Serbia to do whatever they want WITHIN Serbia.
As far WALTER'S comment is concerned, just for your info, Afghanistan has not been attacked on "moral grounds" but it was a military response to an attack that took place within the USA.
It is a shame that the rest of the world does not see what a threat the Middle Eastern terrorism poses for Western culture. But that is not the issue here.
Anyways, you are so quick to judge the Germans or Americans, but unfortunately, not only you but most of the Serb posters, have no decency to addmit to the crimes commited in your name and apologize.
And one more question for Walter:How in the hell did Albanians manage to expell 250.000 Serbs from Kosovo, considering that the Croats had to coordinate and plan for months, with their well equiped army, to execute the Krajina cleansing (300.000 people), whereas Albanian KLA was fighting against superior Serb army,police and other paramilitary formations only with outdated weaponry?!!!
I would love to get an answer not only from Walter but whomever.
To Canadian:
USA and EU are getting exhausted from Kosovo issue???
Interesting point of wiev. I would have asked you to elaborate but your comments don't make any sense so I will ask you to think once again about this. They have people, resources and god knows that they have patience (after all they don't have to live in this bad dream as we do). Whereas Serbia...well, NO COMMENT.When will the persecution of Serbs stop? Truly our reward in heaven is great!
(prince lazar, novi sad, 2. September 2007 22:59)
You can have it my friend.You dig your heels deeper by all means.
I personally am interested to get it in this life.
One more thing though Serbia is not CHINA nor Kosova Taiwan.
Kalifornian
Walter, if Serbia respected any law, including its own adopted laws of yugoslavia, Serbia wouldn't have murdered 8000 men and boys of Srebrenica. When serbia follows its own laws, then they can expect all nations of this world to respect int'l law as it may apply to serbia. Otherwise, the world recognizes the laws that applies to nations who break laws, like that nasty thing called genocide and right to self determination.
Please, PLEASE, tell me in which part of Serbia is Srebrenica?
' In a world with no more legal barriers to might proclaiming itself right, there was nothing to stop a a "serbian" president from using military force to crush every conceivable adversary"(Until the serbs met up with their formidable foe..Int'l Law .. Helsinki's right of self determination).
You realize this thought is interchangeable for serbia too. As Srebia thought it could use its military might against its own civilian minorities. It is explicitly for this reason alone serbia was bombed 78 days straight, just to let their people know the plight of their minorities under the same bombardment by your belgrade leaders, and the price to pay for such abrogation of THAT SAME INT'L LAW, these same serbian leaders like to call out against those who use it to stop serbian aggression and expansion.
So you are telling me the the germans are responsible for:
- Milosevic speech and removal of Kosovo autonomy towards end of 80's
- Colonel Colic's speech in Prijedor: "...the Serb people needs to take vengeance, to avenge all the crimes committed against them"
- Karadzics parliamentary speech in 1991:
"If you embark upon the road which will take you to hell, it is a road that Slovenia and Croatia have already taken, what may happen is that you disappear because the Muslim people in Bosnia-Herzegovina has no arms, has no army of its own, and if it continues along this road, it will witness bloodshed and probably disappearance from these parts. "
- The PUBLISHED (May 12 1992) 6xstrategic goals for serbian people in BiH which include:
separating serbs and non-serbs, ensure access to the sea, seize territory in order to connect all serb parts.
- early RS Constitution said that RS is a state of serb people only, with no mention of minorities.
Now, when you consider all this (and I havent mentioned the attrocities commited), do you really think that serbia can be trusted as a law-abiding nation? there will be an arguement that this was Bosnian Serbs and not Serbia, but telephone conversations and documents prove that this early on, Milosevic and Karadzic were strongly linked, as they wanted to form a new Yugoslavia. Granted as time went on, the link became more loose but this early on, it was very strong.
And also, if serbs want to argue "this isnt serbs from serbia" then its hypocritical at best.
NATO acted to stop whats happened in Bosnia happening in Kosovo. UN Security Council hasnt been effective at all in stopping the war. Does anyone remember the Dutch troops in Srebrenica under so called "UN umbrella". Reality is UNSC had no guts to do anything and you can argue that NATO is illegal, but it was right. Serbia didnt follow the law the letter back then so its unrealistic to take it seriously when its trying to use the law to solve something it did illegally itself. Remember, serbs broke the mother of all laws FIRST-human rights. So once u break a law, dont expect a response within laws. In any case, since when did land become more important than people on the land?
Also, further to illegal arguments, there was no law that forced Allies to declare war on Germany in ww2, it was common sense.
“Also, further to illegal arguments, there was no law that forced Allies to declare war on Germany in ww2, it was common sense.” Absolutely it is common sense that a nation under attack would defend itself. Yugoslavia had every right to self defence which was denied by NATO. It was Germany if you know the history of WWII that did the attacking in many cases without declaring war. You need to trace the events that led to the Yugoslav conflict to see who is responsible for what. You cannot expect the Helsinki accord to apply selectively. it must be applied uniformly not as an agenda of NATO applied selectively to achieve regime and economic change. The two links provide information that you obviously refuse to annualize. http://www.swans.com/library/art9/dianaj01.html
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10258
You provide three examples of speeches like Milosevic’s speech in Kosovo as an example of nationalism where even the Hague tribunal was not able to fabricate a single word that did not apply to the defense of all Yugoslavs. You provide a speech by Karadzic which warns of impending catastrophe for Mini Yugoslavia (Bosnia). He feared what happened. From the first bullets that killed guests at a Serbian wedding in Sarajevo those who unilaterally abrogated the Helsinki Accord by unilaterally recognizing Slovenia and Croatia (Germany) are first and foremost responsible.
Karaddgic in a CIA taped speech played at The Hague was overheard speaking with Milosevic. Milosevic: “You must do everything in your power to stop the people from Rising. Karadzic: I will do everything that I can but Iset wants war and whatever I do will be too late”
As for Colic’s speech I am not familiar with it but I am familiar with “BMA, led by Naser Oric, Hakija (Husein) Meholjic, Zulfo "Suceska" Tursunovic and Akif (Enez) Ustic have attacked several Bosnian Serb villages in Srebrenica's area. The following Bosnian Serbs villages were burned and destroyed: Osredak May 1992, Oparke June 01,1992 , Zagora July 05,1992 , Zalezje July 12, 1992 Pajici and Hrahna July 25, 1992 , Brezani July 30, 1992 , Fakovici October 1992, Kravice January 07, 1993 (Christmas Day for the Orthodox Bosnian Serbs)” so Colic’s speech is understandable. You need to see this article from Dani, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Hercegovina, June 22 1998 http://www.ex-yupress.com/dani/dani2.html to understand the Bosnian agenda.
It is very interesting what Carlos Martins Branco United nations official from Spain has to say about Srebrenica and don’t dismiss this as Serb propaganda since it is a Serbian web page but tell us where it is in error. Go to the link below.
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Bosnia/Srebrenica/Branco.html
You Kalifornian write of one standard of international law for one nation and American agenda for everyone else. Yugoslavia asked to have international law apply to its independence as a UN member in good standing and an example to much of the world where ethnic groups lived and shared a common identity. International law was subverted by NATO for its own agenda. Serbia continues to ask for the protection of International law just like Yugoslavia did but it is not in the interest of those who broke up Yugoslavia in the first place to observe this law because it requires multilateral decisions and is contrary to NATO agenda.
For those having doubts of the future of INDEPENDENT Kosovo/a:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=BW&date=20070905&id=7419118
" If the big picture is EU than the small picture is don’t break international law in order to enforce your agenda. "
Walter, if Serbia respected any law, including its own adopted laws of yugoslavia, Serbia wouldn't have murdered 8000 men and boys of Srebrenica. When serbia follows its own laws, then they can expect all nations of this world to respect int'l law as it may apply to serbia. Otherwise, the world recognizes the laws that applies to nations who break laws, like that nasty thing called genocide and right to self determination.
." When Germany becomes a principled nation and uses international law as a tool of diplomacy then and only then you have a right to advise and criticize. "
Don't expect any nation to treat serbia like a law abiding nation. When Serbia knows it has done everything it could to compensate the victim's families of their heinous acts, then serbia might expect diplomats and ambassadors to treat serbia like a civilized equal. Otherwise, to serbia, bask with the likes of Idi Amin and Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler or Stalin. These uncontrolled murderers are in line in respecting Serbia's philosophy towards minorities and dissenters.
"I don´t know where you get your information from, but, didn´t you know that a few months ago even the socalled international court of justice made it quite clear that Serbia had nothing to do with the Srebrenica-events?
.....
(Jovan, 2. September 2007 20:33)"
Jovan, stop pretending to be a patriot for once and face the truth. Also your PR efforts are very week. The court did not punish the Serbian nation as a perpetrator. That is very different from saying that high ranked Serbian officials in the Government, Parliament, Judical Branch, Army, Military and security forces are found guilty and being prosecuted for their crimes. Very different.
If we were to follow your logic, then thousands of people decided to commit massive suicides at the same time in the same place, and after they killed themselves somehow magically they managed to bury themselves in massive graves. Those who fortunately decided not to kill themselves decided to ethnically cleanse themselves out of joy that they were going to live. And in all these killings the Serbian soldiers and high official were mere spectators who just out pure coincidence happened to be in the same place where all these thousands of suicides and hundreds of thousands ethnic cleansed people were.
I am not trying to convince you. An extremist or zealot will never admit he is wrong since all his world revolves around the idea that he is right and the rest of the world is wrong.
And the serbs see through these kinds of hypocritical threats. Far from exhausting Serbia, we dig our heels in even more. They should not forget how many "exhausted" serbian soldiers, stood up to a much better armed force of 250,000 german nazi troops plus albanian nazi troops. When will the persecution of Serbs stop? Truly our reward in heaven is great!
Goodbye and good riddance, Zobel. During your tenure you have managed to reinforce all the very worst stereotypes about Germany, the Germans and German lack of tact. You remain truly the worst diplomat I have ever come across! I just hope that the German MFA thinks long and hard about where to send you next.
Mr. Zobel we can thank Germany for this exhaustion. It was your country that opened the door to this exhaustion after destabilization of Yugoslavia by the IMF and the World Bank. Your country participated with others in the bombing of Serbia to close out the last century. You paid your debts to your WWII allies to hoist this exhaustion on Serbia. You never intended to live by resolution 1224; if you had it would have been implemented ten years ago. It was under your watch that 250 000 Serbs were deprived of their homes in Kosovo. It was your unilateral recognition of Croatia that also led to 300 000 Serbs deprived of their homes in Croatia. Any nation with these kinds of refugee problems and a litany of lies by the Mainstream Media to justify what you have done would be exhausted. If the big picture is EU than the small picture is don’t break international law in order to enforce your agenda. Open Europe’s borders to Kosovo’s excess population so they can find work in your Country and elsewhere but that is exactly what you don’t want. Mr. Zobel and every Albanian who posts here want the principle of majority to apply to them but when Serbs ask for the same principle you and they call it Serbian Nationalism. When Germany becomes a principled nation and uses international law as a tool of diplomacy then and only then you have a right to advise and criticize.
Outgoing German Ambassador to Serbia Andreas Zobel says the Kosovo issue is "exhausting Serbia".
Actually not true and in fact the Kosovo issue is exhausting the EU and USA! The idea was to exhaust Serbia but like the NATO war in 1999 they underestimated the Serbs.
Here are just some politicians and diplomats which are the worst according to the Serbs.
1. Bill Clinton
2. Tony Blair
3. Madeline Albright
4. Jamie Shea
5. Lord Robertson
6. Soren Jessen-Peterson
7. Marti Ahtisari
8. Joachim Ryker
9. Michael Polt
10. German Ambassador Zobel
11 Bernard Kouchner (at times)
From this list it seems that anyone from the western world that does not agree with the views of the Serbian government is the worst diplomat or politician ever. It's so easy to accuse the others and never question your own self and your own views.
Feel free to add to this list.
You are right KALIFORNIAN we “Don't expect any nation to treat serbia like a law abiding nation” SINCE THEY NEVER DID and since those nations that you protect use international law to achieve their global agenda by breaking it every day. Open your eyes and see the trees in the forest of Mainstream Media lies. As Diana Johnstone writes “The bombing of Yugoslavia marked a turning point in the expansion of U.S. military hegemony. For the first time, a European country was subjected to the type of U.S. intervention usually reserved for Central America. It also marked the end of Germany's postwar inhibition about foreign military intervention, and saw Germans returning to the scene of Nazi crimes with a clear conscience. For the first time, NATO abandoned its defensive posture and attacked a country that posed no threat to its member states, outside the NATO treaty area, and without seeking UN Security Council authorization. International law was circumvented in the name of an alleged higher moral imperative. A precedent was set. When the United States subsequently arrogated the right to bomb and invade Afghanistan on moral grounds, its NATO allies could only meekly offer to tag along. In a world with no more legal barriers to might proclaiming itself right, there was nothing to stop a U.S. president from using military force to crush every conceivable adversary. “ Your simplistic response without a thread of evidence exposes your limitations first about world history and shamelessly about your own if in fact you are from California.
Ron Taiwan is part of China always was and it should be again. As Formosa it was used in the colonial tug of war just like Hong Kong. Japan Britain and USA created the present status of Taiwan just like NATO has created the present status of Kosovo. This was done for self interest. Taiwan was placed into the hands of Chiang Kai Shek and his murderous regime just like Kosovo was handed over to the KLA. criminals. Hong Kong went back to China as Taiwan should and as Kosovo should go back to Serbia. Thousands of Chinese fled to British Columbia when Hong Kong reverted back to China with billions which they invested in our province and elsewhere, and thanks to that our economy boomed and Hong Kong went into a period of economic decline. When the Chinese who fled with their money realized that China had no intention to change Hong Kong’s status as the financial Capital of Asia the Chinese started to return to Hong Kong. I think the drug lords who are in control of Kosovo and the other criminal elements fear the loss of their ill gotten livelihood and like the Chinese who fled Hong Kong they will have to flee to Albania. Europe continues to destabilize Serbia in order to force partition or independence. Well Tiananmen Square did not work to destabilize china and Serbia will survive the present European pressure since International law ids on her side.
"Kalifornian" wrote:
"Walter, if Serbia respected any law, including its own adopted laws of yugoslavia, Serbia wouldn't have murdered 8000 men and boys of Srebrenica."
I don´t know where you get your information from, but, didn´t you know that a few months ago even the socalled international court of justice made it quite clear that Serbia had nothing to do with the Srebrenica-events?
I mean, what must happen until you just once write the truth???
go educate yourself and next time first think than comment.
Well it is up to Serbia to do whatever they want WITHIN Serbia.
As far WALTER'S comment is concerned, just for your info, Afghanistan has not been attacked on "moral grounds" but it was a military response to an attack that took place within the USA.
It is a shame that the rest of the world does not see what a threat the Middle Eastern terrorism poses for Western culture. But that is not the issue here.
Anyways, you are so quick to judge the Germans or Americans, but unfortunately, not only you but most of the Serb posters, have no decency to addmit to the crimes commited in your name and apologize.
And one more question for Walter:How in the hell did Albanians manage to expell 250.000 Serbs from Kosovo, considering that the Croats had to coordinate and plan for months, with their well equiped army, to execute the Krajina cleansing (300.000 people), whereas Albanian KLA was fighting against superior Serb army,police and other paramilitary formations only with outdated weaponry?!!!
I would love to get an answer not only from Walter but whomever.
To Canadian:
USA and EU are getting exhausted from Kosovo issue???
Interesting point of wiev. I would have asked you to elaborate but your comments don't make any sense so I will ask you to think once again about this. They have people, resources and god knows that they have patience (after all they don't have to live in this bad dream as we do). Whereas Serbia...well, NO COMMENT.When will the persecution of Serbs stop? Truly our reward in heaven is great!
(prince lazar, novi sad, 2. September 2007 22:59)
You can have it my friend.You dig your heels deeper by all means.
I personally am interested to get it in this life.
One more thing though Serbia is not CHINA nor Kosova Taiwan.
' In a world with no more legal barriers to might proclaiming itself right, there was nothing to stop a a "serbian" president from using military force to crush every conceivable adversary"(Until the serbs met up with their formidable foe..Int'l Law .. Helsinki's right of self determination).
You realize this thought is interchangeable for serbia too. As Srebia thought it could use its military might against its own civilian minorities. It is explicitly for this reason alone serbia was bombed 78 days straight, just to let their people know the plight of their minorities under the same bombardment by your belgrade leaders, and the price to pay for such abrogation of THAT SAME INT'L LAW, these same serbian leaders like to call out against those who use it to stop serbian aggression and expansion.
So you are telling me the the germans are responsible for:
- Milosevic speech and removal of Kosovo autonomy towards end of 80's
- Colonel Colic's speech in Prijedor: "...the Serb people needs to take vengeance, to avenge all the crimes committed against them"
- Karadzics parliamentary speech in 1991:
"If you embark upon the road which will take you to hell, it is a road that Slovenia and Croatia have already taken, what may happen is that you disappear because the Muslim people in Bosnia-Herzegovina has no arms, has no army of its own, and if it continues along this road, it will witness bloodshed and probably disappearance from these parts. "
- The PUBLISHED (May 12 1992) 6xstrategic goals for serbian people in BiH which include:
separating serbs and non-serbs, ensure access to the sea, seize territory in order to connect all serb parts.
- early RS Constitution said that RS is a state of serb people only, with no mention of minorities.
Now, when you consider all this (and I havent mentioned the attrocities commited), do you really think that serbia can be trusted as a law-abiding nation? there will be an arguement that this was Bosnian Serbs and not Serbia, but telephone conversations and documents prove that this early on, Milosevic and Karadzic were strongly linked, as they wanted to form a new Yugoslavia. Granted as time went on, the link became more loose but this early on, it was very strong.
And also, if serbs want to argue "this isnt serbs from serbia" then its hypocritical at best.
NATO acted to stop whats happened in Bosnia happening in Kosovo. UN Security Council hasnt been effective at all in stopping the war. Does anyone remember the Dutch troops in Srebrenica under so called "UN umbrella". Reality is UNSC had no guts to do anything and you can argue that NATO is illegal, but it was right. Serbia didnt follow the law the letter back then so its unrealistic to take it seriously when its trying to use the law to solve something it did illegally itself. Remember, serbs broke the mother of all laws FIRST-human rights. So once u break a law, dont expect a response within laws. In any case, since when did land become more important than people on the land?
Also, further to illegal arguments, there was no law that forced Allies to declare war on Germany in ww2, it was common sense.
Kalifornian
Walter, if Serbia respected any law, including its own adopted laws of yugoslavia, Serbia wouldn't have murdered 8000 men and boys of Srebrenica. When serbia follows its own laws, then they can expect all nations of this world to respect int'l law as it may apply to serbia. Otherwise, the world recognizes the laws that applies to nations who break laws, like that nasty thing called genocide and right to self determination.
Please, PLEASE, tell me in which part of Serbia is Srebrenica?
To all those who expressed their worries about MR Zobel's future career: He will be rewarded with one of Germany's top diplomatic posts in Brussels with the EU. There he will have quite a big say in the EU's policy towards countries aspiring to join.
- Sorry for those, who cannot prevent themselves from bashing those who act like honest critics! MR Zobel was right to point to the importance of Serbia's economic development.
“Also, further to illegal arguments, there was no law that forced Allies to declare war on Germany in ww2, it was common sense.” Absolutely it is common sense that a nation under attack would defend itself. Yugoslavia had every right to self defence which was denied by NATO. It was Germany if you know the history of WWII that did the attacking in many cases without declaring war. You need to trace the events that led to the Yugoslav conflict to see who is responsible for what. You cannot expect the Helsinki accord to apply selectively. it must be applied uniformly not as an agenda of NATO applied selectively to achieve regime and economic change. The two links provide information that you obviously refuse to annualize. http://www.swans.com/library/art9/dianaj01.html
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10258
You provide three examples of speeches like Milosevic’s speech in Kosovo as an example of nationalism where even the Hague tribunal was not able to fabricate a single word that did not apply to the defense of all Yugoslavs. You provide a speech by Karadzic which warns of impending catastrophe for Mini Yugoslavia (Bosnia). He feared what happened. From the first bullets that killed guests at a Serbian wedding in Sarajevo those who unilaterally abrogated the Helsinki Accord by unilaterally recognizing Slovenia and Croatia (Germany) are first and foremost responsible.
Karaddgic in a CIA taped speech played at The Hague was overheard speaking with Milosevic. Milosevic: “You must do everything in your power to stop the people from Rising. Karadzic: I will do everything that I can but Iset wants war and whatever I do will be too late”
As for Colic’s speech I am not familiar with it but I am familiar with “BMA, led by Naser Oric, Hakija (Husein) Meholjic, Zulfo "Suceska" Tursunovic and Akif (Enez) Ustic have attacked several Bosnian Serb villages in Srebrenica's area. The following Bosnian Serbs villages were burned and destroyed: Osredak May 1992, Oparke June 01,1992 , Zagora July 05,1992 , Zalezje July 12, 1992 Pajici and Hrahna July 25, 1992 , Brezani July 30, 1992 , Fakovici October 1992, Kravice January 07, 1993 (Christmas Day for the Orthodox Bosnian Serbs)” so Colic’s speech is understandable. You need to see this article from Dani, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Hercegovina, June 22 1998 http://www.ex-yupress.com/dani/dani2.html to understand the Bosnian agenda.
It is very interesting what Carlos Martins Branco United nations official from Spain has to say about Srebrenica and don’t dismiss this as Serb propaganda since it is a Serbian web page but tell us where it is in error. Go to the link below.
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Bosnia/Srebrenica/Branco.html
You Kalifornian write of one standard of international law for one nation and American agenda for everyone else. Yugoslavia asked to have international law apply to its independence as a UN member in good standing and an example to much of the world where ethnic groups lived and shared a common identity. International law was subverted by NATO for its own agenda. Serbia continues to ask for the protection of International law just like Yugoslavia did but it is not in the interest of those who broke up Yugoslavia in the first place to observe this law because it requires multilateral decisions and is contrary to NATO agenda.
For those having doubts of the future of INDEPENDENT Kosovo/a:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=BW&date=20070905&id=7419118
IMAGE SOURCE
23 Komentari
Sortiraj po: