47

Thursday, 30.08.2007.

10:09

FM: Direct Kosovo talks in New York

Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremić said agreement was reached for Belgrade and Priština to start direct Kosovo talks soon.

Izvor: B92

FM: Direct Kosovo talks in New York IMAGE SOURCE
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47 Komentari

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KS

pre 16 godina

Jovan how do you expect me to take you seriously when you give me a source that is absolutely a joke?

That website is run by the Belgrade lobbyists, I know this because I read an article about this website in GOOGLE NEWS.

Why does it offend you that Albanians whether from Kosova, Albania, Macedonia, Presheva valley, Montenegro, and other places are PROUD PEOPLE.

Albanians are proud people, the end. Albanians are direct descendants of Illyrians, their greatest hero is Gjergj Kastrioti who saved Europe during Renaissance era from the Ottomans until he died.

Albanians have contributed to humanitarian causes (Saint Mother Tereza), etc etc.

ALbanians are loving and kind people, no matter how much serbianna tries to portray ALbanians as war-mongers or mafia driven people the humorous it gets.

I'm a Kosovar. I'm proud.

BTw did you ever think that I may be a Kosovar-Bosnian from Prizren? OR do you recognize any pro-independence poster as "albanians"?

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Walter

pre 16 godina

Mr. May the issue of birth rate was raised by others as a factor in Kosovo demographics. How it is racist to state that high birth rate is associated with poverty and illiteracy? How it is racist to state that high birth rate is associated with emigration and the need for aid to overpopulated regions by developing countries? How is it racist to suggest that ethnic wars and crime are also associated with poverty, and unemployment? Economic crisis in part created intentionally by the IMF and the World Bank that contributed to destabilization of Yugoslavia. When nations are economically strong with well developed education systems that allow for introspection, discussion and open debate the issues of demographics seldom leads to conflict. These comments which I feel are directed at all societies which are in transition in their development from clannism and paternalism to a more democratic social organization is not intent at racism since this comment applies to many parts of the Balkans. I have met many women from the Balkans who are ten times as smart as their husbands but the husband still lord over them. These women double shift while the husband sips coffee or jaws with his buddies while the woman serves washes dishes and does all other household chores. A 5 year old male child in Herzegovina I remember visiting cousins in a distant village and my female cousins had to wash my feet which I was capable of washing. Recently there has been a reemergence of kannun throughout Albania and Kosovo. Saying that this return to clan mentality is also associated with high birth rate, low education standards, agrarian societies and other economic ills is in no way racist. Does it make the Albanian demographic example any less or any more true or any more acceptable to you Mr. May if I had made my statement more general. Albanian, Croats and Serb men in the past and some more and some less today equated number of children with machismo and add to this ignorance, and religion and the need for more fingers to weed the fields this could apply to three quarters of the developing world. Some societies have a longer road to travel than others all you need to do is look at percentage of people in any society working in agriculture to see how far that society needs to travel. In America about 3% of the population works in Agriculture while in Serbia it is 30% and in Albania 46%.

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Gezim

pre 16 godina

wow wow wow To: all posters in B92.
You people you seems to have so much time to discus the politics, and have forgoten about the daily problems, and the situation that we are.
To Serb posters, i see that some of the posters anr very nacionalist, please be more polite, we are not here to kill eachother.
And to my fellow Albanians, whey dont you tray to do some changes in our citys, with our municipality, you see how many problems we have, why not critisazing our gouverment that they are not doing nothing, stop with ths status, its not up to us or up to the serbs, someone third is going to impose a solution and give an end to this.
I'm sick of it everything, day by day the situation gets worst.
Tell me please when the Independence comes, what than , what is going to be with people when they see that still the economy didnt change a bit, but the situation gets worst.
Why can some one please tell me why there is so much concentration only to the Independence, why not at the Economy, how can we improve the social life in Kosovo, the status will not resolve all the problems, you know that we have only 700 milions in our budget.
Please wake up, and open your eys.
We just want to live and have a job, and mind our own bussines.

Peace to All
Gezim

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james may

pre 16 godina

Dear B92

The commentary attached to this article regarding Kosovo Albanians awareness of birth control is prejudicial and racist in intent. Open public debate is very valuable but please be aware that hosting this content without any editorial comment (a statement addressing such comments, rather than cutting them) undermines B92's credibility of it's reporting on Kosovo, which is currently the most balanced and informative available in the English language.

James May
YIHR

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Jovan

pre 16 godina

Give the albanians the chanse to govern(not rule)over other minorities in New State of Kosovo!!!
(Che Guevara, 31. August 2007 00:03)

to the south-american guerillero: I am afraid you will have to continue dreaming of that "chanse"!

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JHam

pre 16 godina

Please December 10th hurry and get here so we can see who is going to declare independence or get told to be quite and negoitate more. Supervised independence is not Independence. I think everyone is assuming that after Dec 10th there will be big parties and all. Well i have marked my calendar and will wait to see what happens. I am not going to boast and line dance like some posters. I will leave that to others to do.

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Boban

pre 16 godina

"about 100 years"
In those 100 years albanians have killed and driven out Serbs from Kosovo. Lets not forget he mass illegal migration of albanians to Kosovo from Albania during WW2.

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Benny

pre 16 godina

First I hope the B92 will publish this long text
I want to thank and appologize to the moderator of B92 it will really take a lot of space but i think with a good intention everyone in this forum when talking about Serbia and Kosovo should be interested to read the facts before they make the comments
(
To Mr. JOVAN
I don't understand why most of you serbian posters are so unrealistic even nowdays after all these war in Fyrom. Kosovo has always been an Albanian territory, and it's not only theAlbanians that are saying this, but every historical book (except the one created by Academy of science and culture in Belgrade)in the world. Albanians are descendants of Illyrians. Illyria's territory reached the Danub river.
The slavs came from today's north Poland, Russia, from Biellorussia, and occupied the Illyrian tribes there where today is Serbia, Bulgary, Macedonia and other slavic people.
They assimilated the illyrian population and formed their own slavic states. Albanians were the only Illirians that rezisted assimilation. Serbs are slavs, speak slavic, how can you say that Kosovo, the Ancient Dardhania, an Illyrian tribe, is serbian? They speak albanian language, which is one of the oldest languages descends from the greek times. Albanian language doesn't derive from any other language.
Serbian language derives from russian, from slavic tribes. How can you say that Kosovo is Serbian?

Go and read some real historical materials, not only serbian propaganda history. You may read all famous encyclopedias on the web, and they say exactly what i quoted here.

Why do you keep on lying and believing nationalists false propaganda?
I will give you some brief facts and will atach to it a link where all of you including Albanians can learn their ancient disputes properly.
When the Roman Empire divided into east and west in 395, the territories of modern Albania became part of the Byzantine Empire. As in the Roman Empire, some Illyrians rose to positions of eminence in the new empire. Three of the emperors who shaped the early history of Byzantium (reigning from 491 to 565) were of Illyrian origin: Anastasius I, Justin I, and—the most celebrated of Byzantine emperors—Justinian I.
In the first decades under Byzantine rule (until 461), Illyria suffered the devastation of raids by Visigoths, Huns, and Ostrogoths. Not long after these barbarian invaders swept through the Balkans, the Slavs appeared. Between the 6th and 8th centuries they settled in Illyrian territories and proceeded to assimilate Illyrian tribes in much of what is now Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Serbia. The tribes of southern Illyria, however—including modern Albania—averted assimilation and preserved their native tongue.

In the course of several centuries, under the impact of Roman, Byzantine, and Slavic cultures, the tribes of southern Illyria underwent a transformation, and a transition occurred from the old Illyrian population to a new Albanian one. As a consequence, from the 8th to the 11th century, the name Illyria gradually gave way to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century AD by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, of the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbëri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage. (Scholars have not been able to determine the origin of Shqipëria, the Albanians' own name for their land, which is believed to have supplanted the name Albania during the 16th and 17th centuries. It probably was derived from shqipe, or “eagle,” which, modified into shqipëria, became “the land of the eagle.”)

Long before that event, Christianity had become the established religion in Albania, supplanting pagan polytheism and eclipsing for the most part the humanistic world outlook and institutions inherited from the Greek and Roman civilizations. But, though the country was in the fold of Byzantium, Albanian Christians remained under the jurisdiction of the Roman pope until 732. In that year the iconoclast Byzantine emperor Leo III, angered by Albanian archbishops because they had supported Rome in the Iconoclastic Controversy, detached the Albanian church from the Roman pope and placed it under the patriarch of Constantinople. When the Christian church split in 1054 between the East and Rome, southern Albania retained its tie to Constantinople while northern Albania reverted to the jurisdiction of Rome. This split in the Albanian church marked the first significant religious fragmentation of the country.
Owing partly to the weakness of the Byzantine Empire, Albania, beginning in the 9th century, came under the domination, in whole or in part, of a succession of foreign powers: Bulgarians, Norman crusaders, the Angevins of southern Italy, Serbs, and Venetians. The final occupation of the country in 1347 by the Serbs, led by Stefan Dušan, caused massive migrations of Albanians abroad, especially to Greece and the Aegean islands. By the mid-14th century, Byzantine rule had come to an end in Albania, after nearly 1,000 years.
A few decades later the country was confronted with a new threat, that of the Turks, who at this juncture were expanding their power in the Balkans. The Ottoman Turks invaded Albania in 1388 and completed the occupation of the country about four decades later (1430). But after 1443 an Albanian of military genius—Gjergj Kastrioti (1405–68), known as Skanderbeg—rallied the Albanian princes and succeeded in driving the occupiers out. For the next 25 years, operating out of his stronghold in the mountain town of Krujë, Skanderbeg frustrated every attempt by the Turks to regain Albania, which they envisioned as a springboard for the invasion of Italy and western Europe. His unequal fight against the mightiest power of the time won the esteem of Europe as well as some support in the form of money and military aid from Naples, the papacy, Venice, and Ragusa. After he died, Albanian resistance gradually collapsed, enabling the Turks to reoccupy the country by 1506.

Skanderbeg's long struggle to keep Albania free became highly significant to the Albanian people, as it strengthened their solidarity, made them more conscious of their national identity, and served later as a great source of inspiration in their struggle for national unity, freedom, and independence.
And this is where the turning pont for most albanian religions and geographic point.
The Turks established their dominion over Albania just as the Renaissance began to unfold in Europe, so that, cut off from contact and exchanges with western Europe, Albania had no chance to participate in, or benefit from, the humanistic achievements of that era. Conquest also caused great suffering and vast destruction of the country's economy, commerce, art, and culture. Moreover, to escape persecution by their conquerors, about one-fourth of the country's population fled abroad to southern Italy, Sicily, and the Dalmatian coast.
Although the Turks ruled Albania for more than four centuries, they were unable to extend their authority throughout the country. In the highland regions Turkish authorities exercised only a formal sovereignty, as the highlanders refused to pay taxes, serve in the army, or surrender their arms—although they did pay an annual tribute to Constantinople.

Albanians rose in rebellion time and again against Ottoman occupation. In order to check the ravages of Albanian resistance—which was partly motivated by religious feelings, namely, defense of the Christian faith—as well as to bring Albania spiritually closer to Turkey, the Ottomans initiated a systematic drive toward the end of the 16th century to Islamize the population. This drive continued through the following century, by the end of which two-thirds of the people had converted to Islam. A major reason Albanians became Muslims was to escape Turkish violence and exploitation, an instance of which was a crushing tax that Christians would have to pay if they refused to convert.

Islamization aggravated the religious fragmentation of Albanian society, which had first appeared in the Middle Ages and which was later used by Constantinople and Albania's neighbours in attempts to divide and denationalize the Albanian people. Hence leaders of the Albanian national movement in the 19th century used the rallying cry “The religion of Albanians is Albanianism” in order to overcome religious divisions and foster national unity.

The basis of Ottoman rule in Albania was a feudalmilitary system of landed estates, called timars, which were awarded to military lords for loyalty and service to the empire. As Ottoman power began to decline in the 18th century, the central authority of the empire in Albania gave way to the local authority of autonomy-minded lords. The most successful of these lords were three generations of pashas of the Bushati family, who dominated most of northern Albania from 1757 to 1831, and Ali Pasa Tepelenë of Janina (now Ioánnina, Greece), a colourful Oriental-type despot who ruled over southern Albania and northern Greece from 1788 to 1822. These pashas created separate states within the Ottoman state until they were overthrown by the sultan.

After the fall of the pashas, in 1831 Turkey officially abolished the timar system. In the wake of its collapse, economic and social power passed from the feudal lords to private landowning beys and, in the northern highlands, to tribal chieftains called bajraktars, who presided over given territories with rigid patriarchal societies that were often torn by blood feuds. Peasants who were formerly serfs now worked on the estates of the beys as tenant farmers.

Ottoman rule in Albania remained backward and oppressive to the end. In these circumstances, many Albanians went abroad in search of careers and advancement within the empire, and an unusually large number of them, in proportion to Albania's population, rose to positions of prominence as government and military leaders. More than two dozen grand viziers (similar to prime ministers) of Turkey were of Albanian origin.


And one of the most important topics where Serbs should focus on is:
By the mid-19th century Turkey was in the throes of the “Eastern Question,” as the peoples of the Balkans, including Albanians, sought to realize their national aspirations. To defend and promote their national interests, Albanians met in Prizren, a town in Kosovo, in 1878 and founded the Albanian League. The league had two main goals, one political and the other cultural. First, it strove (unsuccessfully) to unify all Albanian territories—at the time divided among the four vilayets, or provinces, of Kosovo, Shkodër, Monastir, and Janina—into one autonomous state within the framework of the Ottoman Empire. Second, it spearheaded a movement to develop Albanian language, literature, education, and culture. In line with the second program, in 1908 Albanian leaders met in the town of Monastir (now Bitola, Macedonia) and adopted a national alphabet. Based mostly on the Latin script, this supplanted several other alphabets, including Arabic and Greek, that were in use until then.
The Albanian League was suppressed by the Turks in 1881, in part because they were alarmed by its strong nationalistic orientation. By then, however, the league had become a powerful symbol of Albania's national awakening, and its ideas and objectives fueled the drive that culminated later in national independence.

When the Young Turks, who seized power in Istanbul in 1908, ignored their commitments to Albanians to institute democratic reforms and to grant autonomy, Albanians embarked on an armed struggle, which, at the end of three years (1910–12), forced the Turks to agree, in effect, to grant their demands. Alarmed at the prospect of Albanian autonomy, Albania's Balkan neighbours, who had already made plans to partition the region, declared war on Turkey in October 1912, and Greek, Serbian, and Montenegrin armies advanced into Albanian territories.

To prevent the annihilation of the country, Albanian national delegates met at a congress in Vlorë. They were led by Ismail Qemal, an Albanian who had held several high positions in the Ottoman government. On Nov. 28, 1912, the congress issued the Vlorë proclamation, which declared Albania's independence.
Shortly after the defeat of Turkey by the Balkan allies, a conference of ambassadors of the Great Powers (Britain, Germany, Russia, Austria-Hungary, France, and Italy) convened in London in December 1912 to settle the outstanding issues raised by the conflict. With support given to the Albanians by Austria-Hungary and Italy, the conference agreed to create an independent state of Albania. But, in drawing the borders of the new state, owing to strong pressure from Albania's neighbours, the Great Powers largely ignored demographic realities and ceded the vast region of Kosovo to Serbia, while, in the south, Greece was given the greater part of Çamëria, a part of the old region of Epirus centred on the Thíamis River. Many observers doubted whether the new state would be viable with about one-half of Albanian lands and population left outside its borders, especially since these lands were the most productive in food grains and livestock. On the other hand, a small community of about 35,000 ethnic Greeks was included within Albania's borders. (However, Greece, which counted all Albanians of the Orthodox faith—20 percent of the population—as Greeks, claimed that the number of ethnic Greeks was considerably larger.) Thereafter, Kosovo and the Greek minority remained troublesome issues in Albanian-Greek and Albanian-Yugoslav relations.
The Great Powers also appointed a German prince, Wilhelm zu Wied, as ruler of Albania. Wilhelm arrived in Albania in March 1914, but his unfamiliarity with Albania and its problems, compounded by complications arising from the outbreak of World War I, led him to depart from Albania six months later. The war plunged the country into a new crisis, as the armies of Austria-Hungary, France, Italy, Greece, Montenegro, and Serbia invaded and occupied it. Left without any political leadership or authority, the country was in chaos, and its very fate hung in the balance. At the Paris Peace Conference after the war, the extinction of Albania was averted largely through the efforts of U.S. President Woodrow Wilson, who vetoed a plan by Britain, France, and Italy to partition Albania among its neighbours.

A national congress, held in Lushnje in January 1920, laid the foundations of a new government. In December of that year Albania, this time with the help of Britain, gained admission to the League of Nations, thereby winning for the first time international recognition as a sovereign nation and state.

Maybe some other time we will elaborate on most recent history which i think will not benefit to the Serbs in this forum sunce it goes against their propaganda
Link http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-42640/Albania#476152.hook
Thank you for your understanding

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GSP

pre 16 godina

Hamid writes - ...They have some things at stake there ,but not a lot.Kosova is gone...

Kosova is gone, correct! It's KOSOVO! Thank you for your clarification

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nodonedeal

pre 16 godina

Albanians in Kosovo-Metohija have done nothing to help themselves prosper in the last 100 years+ to help themselves - besides complain and demand independence - as if this is some sort of panacea. Do they not see that they are still nothing, without the US/EU backing? Why not improve yourselves on your own? Serbs would not have minded if you wanted to work and improve - as oppossed to complaining and sticking your hands out. I for one, have zero sympathy for K_Albanians. You have to earn and work for your respect. There is no free lunch in the West. You'll see.

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lazer

pre 16 godina

So...New York, huh.
well, since I am here already I guess I'll try to get the inside scoop, since I will have some kind of access to at least the Kosovan side.(Albanian)

Walter, I'll be yelling so you can here me in Western Canada.
Its funny how everything gravitates towards US.
How come they did not go to Moscow?
Or at least Paracin?
You guys (Serbian), should be nicer and more insightful about the whole thing.

Kate=Princip, which one are you today?

**Peace**

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Nick

pre 16 godina

Kate,

The natality rate in Kosova was high due to the fact that most of the population lived in rural areas before the war.

The rural areas were viewed by Serbia as potential hot spots of rebellion and were therefore suppressed and impoverished, which naturally results in higher natality.

With the ending of the war and a percentage of the rural population moving to the cities, the birthrates will gradually stabilize.

Furthermore, please spare us the lessons on emancipation of women. While the Albanian society is not exactly an example for Women’s Rights, Serbia isn’t that much better either. Most of Serbia, except for Belgrade and perhaps Vojvodina are similar in this aspect.

Do not forget that we have lived with Serbs for centuries, and while you may fool readers who do not have sufficient knowledge of Serbian society and social structures you certainly are not going to be able to fool me or other Kosova Albanian readers here. Serbs are in general a very Patriarchal society, much like Kosova Albanians and sometimes even more so.

If your intention is to educate us on Women’s rights, then perhaps you should start with Serbia first and work your way down.

B92

By allowing offensive comments such as the one from "benefactor" you are opening the door to a stream of inappropriate comments. I don’t know who is moderating these forums now, but it certainly seems that you have considerably lowered the criteria.

While i have nothing but the deepest respect for enabling us Kosova Albanians to express our opinions here i must ask you to be a little more rigorous when permitting the posting of comments.

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Che Guevara

pre 16 godina

In my opinion, serbs had enough time(about 100 years)to show they know how to govern and develop all parts of ex-Jugoslavija.Instead,they did nothing; more over they repressed,persuaded,tortured,expelled albanian population from their land.In Kosovo,serbs did not govern,they ruled.Europe made a mistake early 1900's.Now is time to correct that mistake they made by giving the albanian people "de jure" the indipendence.Give the albanians the chanse to govern(not rule)over other minorities in New State of Kosovo!!!

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Jovan

pre 16 godina

"Than they call us illegal and we've been here since the Illyrians."
(KS, 30. August 2007 17:13)

besides the wrong orthography...a question towards KS:

and YOU are saying the Serbs "believe in myths"???

they´ve anyway only been invented to caress the albanian soul... it gives them something to be proud of, even if it is only fiction.

and now something completely new for you, KS,... todays Albanians came to the Balkans just in the same time as the Serbs did, namely between the 5th and 7th century.
sorry if it hurts you, but everything else is only wishful thinking.

for all those who want to read some real info:
www.kosovocompromise.com

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Hamid Karzai

pre 16 godina

Serbs should look for a way to enhance their relations with the new state of Kosova.They have some things at stake there ,but not a lot.Kosova is gone. The way demografics are going there there will be more people there than in Serbia. So any dream of a military action will lead to Preshevo valley succession, not to Kosovo reintegracion. The benefits of Serbias holding Kosova will be negative.That place can't feed enough hungry Kosovars, let alone Serbs.The independence of Kosova will be Serbias liberation. I will not be surprised when Serbs will understand that and will celebrate it together. We got rid of you and you got rid of us

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ruzhni

pre 16 godina

The fact on the constitution 1974 is also that Albanians have misused it and made life of Serbs unberrable. It is the time when the most of the serb population has resettled, and by returning it in year 1999 the ethnic cleamsing continued. This is why the constitution can not be the base point, although minister of Slovenia has the interest to make it so. Do not forget that its them that are designers of the 1974 constitution (in order to lead its nation to the first ever independance).
It would be mature if Albanians would reconsider their position and also their "uncles" position and if the new unrest in the world is what will lead them to the independance and the achievement of their ever dreams, or as I would say it is the time to make an compromise and do not provoke us. The Serbia was never as strong and the nation is likelly to respond on the challenge.
And did you succed in the last 8 years to achieve modern european democratic society, non extreeme with the respect towards your fellow neighbours that are not albanians. I would say that you didn't, and have seen it with my own eis. The world has changed from 1998 till now and the information is much harder to be beautified. I wouldn't count on it if I were you.

It is the time for compromise, or in the all or nothing game its likelly that we will all stay with a big nothing. Just take a glance at Iraq and all is already told.

Peace brothers

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Walter

pre 16 godina

Most people who have many children are poorly educated and see children as a way out of poverty i.e. more hands to till the fields. If you look at birth rate around the world you will see that it is highest in countries where education standards are low and available arable land cannot sustain them. Unemployment, hunger and poverty are the ultimate result which is followed by wars, emigration, usually illegal. It is quite self explanatory you only need to read Malthusian Theory of Population to understand that. These countries want the developed world to admit their nationals or to provide aid to feed or provide jobs that they have outstripped within their territory. A cow will newer jump over a fence if there is sufficient pasture where she is feeding and the same is true of people. Recently I was purvey to a ship where 900 workers who were from the Balkans, South and South East Asia, Middle East and the Caribbean . These workers worked seven days a week 19 hours per day with very low paw. I did not meet a single worker from Northern Europe. Remember the cow story that is the reason you will not see Swedes or others on these ships. Europe is tired of the population pressure from the Balkans and elsewhere particularly when that brings with it crime and an outlay of tax dollars to sustain the illegal immigrants. In part the developing world is at fault because they historically exploited the less developed world spending 80% of revenue in territories that they colonized on political control to exploit and very little on education and infrastructure thus contributing to poverty, and overpopulation. The methods that they used in the past to control resources exploitation have changed from direct occupation to divide and rule, regime change, as well as financial control through like minded surrogates that they support.

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Walter

pre 16 godina

Mat you are correct, but I wonder if this is more of what Malthus theorizes or just simply refusal by workers in more developed countries to do that work. In Canada in our old age homes, at least in my town, you will find 50% of the workers from less developed countries working as caregivers. In Canada we have benefited from the low level of labor immigrants as well as from the professional sector. In several government rum departments the management positions are held by new immigrants from the Balkans. We impoverish the Balkans by taking their best educated which we lack due to retirement.

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mat

pre 16 godina

yes kate
and that is the exact reason why europe will face a serious crisis in 50 years.

there are fewer to support the aging population. either make more kids or import. that's a decision a lot of european countries will face.

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Hermon

pre 16 godina

@ Kate
I have been following your comments carefully and i have noticed that in every 2-3 messages you repeat the followin statement.
"Because Kosovo is not at a starting point of independence; it is still officially part of a sovereign state."
It is true tha Kosova is still officialy part of Serbia but dont forget that thats why these negotiations are being conducted. In order to find another solution for Kosova. Because the current status is NOT GOOD. And for your information the current status is full autonomy, and since its not working why should we even consider it?
So please do not mention that fact in the future becaus brngs no benefit to the discussion.
Cheers!!!

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benefactor

pre 16 godina

Why doesn't the UN start educating K_Albanians on birth control, and supply them with contraceptives - like they do in other under-developed, poverty stricken places around the world? The burden of too many hungry children to feed is an impediment to any group of people trying to fight out of poverty. The NATO could help in that area too.

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PB

pre 16 godina

The result is very simple. Unless there is a negotiated settlement now, 1) the albanians will have no official recognition, and 2) the lack of resolution will be the pretext for another war in the region whther it be 1, 5,10,20..years from now.

No agreed solution will be bad for all concerned, as neither side will be allowed to enter the EU. The status quo will just be stored up trouble for the future.

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Agim Elshani

pre 16 godina

Nick , you forgat to tell Ratko that average serb family has one kid and according to gallop pol 60 of married couples don;t like to have kids at all.

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kate

pre 16 godina

Agim - are you aware that the number of children you have is no longer a status symbol in the developed world? Or that some couples just can't afford to have loads of kids even if they wanted to because they don't want to live in abject poverty?

Are you aware that in the rest of Europe women actually do other things apart from have one baby after another? They have one or two (or as many as THEY choose), get educated, have a career or whatever but their goals exceed just being a babymaker.

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Delije

pre 16 godina

How about the Albanians give up on independence. How can 8 million or so people give up their land against their will. The Albanians must stop and realise that the Serbs will not walk away from this empty handed and everyones knows this. The Albanians want independence, and thats the last thing I want to happen but who the hell am I anyway, they may or may not get it, but reallity is the will get something. Partition may be the answer, even though they refuse to talk about it. They will sooner or later. I don't see what's so bad about it. That it will start a domino effect around the region, not Serbia's problem.

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nikshala

pre 16 godina

Ratko

I know you are looking for reasons to justify the current population make up in Kosovo because then it will confirm you belief that albanians are just these illegal land grabing immigrants who with the help of rest of the world apart from Russia are trying to destroy Serbia, but like I said somewhere else - anybody who has been in Kosovo in the last 8 years and knows the region can tell you that no albanians from Albania came to Kosovo after 99 (when I say no albanian - i mean no significant numbers).

I do not know where you are getting this inforamtion.

I also do not know what figures you have of the albanian population in Kosovo pre 99. but there were always around 2 million albanians in Kosovo in the last few years.

If there has been a slight population increase -its due to high birth rate of albanian in Kosovo. You might not know this but the average Kosovan family has at least 4 or 5 kids. Many have up to 7 or 8. And the minimum have 3.

I only know two families that have two kids.

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Nick

pre 16 godina

Ratko,

There are very few Albanians from Albania in Kosova.

Very few Albanians from Albania even visit Kosova and those that do mostly visit the western towns near the border mainly for medical care and such things.

Most Albanians from Albania that i know work for the UN adminstration or other international organizations and they are not many.

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ahmet isufi

pre 16 godina

Ratko,
Illegal attack on jugoslavija in 1999.
as everybody can see you are living in the past and is time for you to waake up from e bad dream. With the start of wars in 90 Yugo no longer exists, where have you been boy?

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KS

pre 16 godina

It seems that you are proud of the past wars in former Yugoslavia.

Peace to Kosovo & Serbia
(Fred, 30. August 2007 15:42)

Fred not only that but they are proud that all these wars Slobodan Milosevic took any serb refugee and dumped them into Kosova. The police and military took the Kosovars out of schools and jobs and put in those positions anyone who was a non-albanian (montenegrian, serbian,Bosnian-serb, etc). Than they call us illegal and we've been here since the Illyrians.

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Ratko

pre 16 godina

Those 2 million albanians - how many of them came illegally into KiM after the illegal attack on Jugoslavija???
This was NOT the population of albanians prior to 99!

Preporučujem 5 Ne preporučujem 1
Fred

pre 16 godina

kate - go a read the 1974 constitution of Former Yugoslavia and have a close look what was Kosovo's status at that time. How it differed form Serbia's?

See what Mr. Rupel said:
“That status was, in the time of Yugoslavia, practically identical to the status of a republic that no one stopped from becoming a state,” Rupel said.
in an article published by B92 yesterday.

Stop mentioning a war, who will you fight NATO?

It seems that you are proud of the past wars in former Yugoslavia.

Peace to Kosovo & Serbia

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fratko

pre 16 godina

thanks BiBi

Kate my dear, Kosovo had accordign to the consitution of 1975 autonomy (very little short of a republic), it was even a constitutional member of Yugoslav Federation, the right of a vote) ... The UNMIK administration does not consider the changes that Milosevic made to our constitution in 1989, therefore officialy Kosovo is an autonomous region blla blla. These talks are to enhance that status to supervised independence, which comes short of a full independence, which i think we will never have, cus we will join the EU soon, and part of the independece will be left with the EU, for which we have no deliberations at all.
So if we all have one starting point, and we get the facts right, than we can maybe come closer to have similiar thoughts and visions for the future!

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Luke

pre 16 godina

The situation has been compared with anything from Northern Cyprus to Vatican or Texas. Here's another parallel, I hope you bear with me through it.

In my opinion, a relationship between a majority and a minority should be that of a loving parent and a respectful child sharing a common household.

In the case that interests us all, however, the parent has not been very loving nor the child respectful.

When the child got rebellious,
the parent grabbed a knife and chased the child out of the house. The child got help from his uncle, who beat up the parent until he let go of the
knife and let the child move back in to child's room with the uncle there to protect the child.

For now, the child is living with his uncle in his room and both want to separate the child's room from the rest of the house and get rid of the
influence of the parent. The parent is keen to keep the child and especially the room as part of his house. Though the parent has little control over the child, he has with the help of his cousin so far managed to avert any decisions aimed at separating the room.

So, essentially, we are speaking whether we can trust the parent in having control over the child and the child's room. The relationship has not been calm in past, and the parent has had some serrious fights with his neighbours recently, too. Or should the room be cut off from the rest of the house and should the child be let to have his own separate life, breaking the traditional bond in a serious way.

So, for example, Kate is obviously for "family values" and wants a valid high court order for separation, or otherwise the traditional bond of family should hold. Ahmet ants the child to have a chance to live on his
own and have his room for himself, and thinks it is a proven case that the parent cannot be trusted.

And now the representatives of both the child and the parent are having indirect talks in Vienna to find a solution to their problem.

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village-bey

pre 16 godina

If one negotiating side necessitates the functionality of talks with the expansion of their remit and the insistence of no deadlines knowing full well the other side cannot be convinced on the Serbian regime’s benevolence; that to me sounds like a delaying tactic of no substance. It maybe that there are no real parallel with this but Serbian insistence this time is very reminiscent to previous talks where Serbian claims on ground rules during the day was accompanied by noisy, drunken nights.

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fratko

pre 16 godina

Kate = the fortune teller !!!
I am scared, our future is not so bright, I will go get a second opinion, cus this one i dont like LOL ...
go on B92 publish this one at least? are you feeling like the big brother...cus I feel that my voice is not being heard at all ;-(

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Nick

pre 16 godina

Kate,

You can package it however you like, autonomy is still autonomy and as such is unacceptable to the Kosova Albanians.

Oh, and talking about packages, why cant we package independence in a way that both sides will accept it?

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kate

pre 16 godina

Nick: Firstly, thank you for your politeness
unlike the ramblings of some posters. One in particular is showing signs of being a sandwich short of a picnic at the moment.

"Oh, and talking about packages, why cant we package independence in a way that both sides will accept it?"

You can, I am sure, predict what I'm going to say. Because Kosovo is not at a starting point of independence; it is still officially part of a sovereign state. Therefore autonomy with elements of independence is far more realistic than the other way round.

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kate

pre 16 godina

No, Benny, I didn't forget the point about the A Plan at all, I just didn't want to paste virtually the whole article.

That is why I said: "So maybe Princip is right that Ahtisaari 'lite' will be integrated with some more realistic ground rules."

The quote that you have used says exactly that - the A Plan is still officially the basis but can be 'thoroughly expanded'. In other words altered and incorporated into any new plan (which would then go through the UN).

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Benny

pre 16 godina

Kate

YEs but you seem to forget that the report says also
"However, the sources add that UN envoy Martti Ahtisaari's plan officially remains the basis for a deal, although it can be "thoroughly expanded."
You just don't accept the facts for some reasonb.

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adriano

pre 16 godina

i hope you are right kate, i hope that the decision will be pushed so serbia can get its independence.
after all this months debating here you got stuck with a "may not" on independence?
anyway all the best to the all the delegates. they will have an emotional roller coaster ride.

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kate

pre 16 godina

Village-bey - I don't think anyone does think that the talks are endless or hopes that they are. But it may well be that the end recommendation is not independence but something which will be accepted by both sides. Or rather pushed to be accepted so that the solution can go through the UN and not undermine all international processes and laws.

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village-bey

pre 16 godina

Belgrade has become increasingly reliant of the process of talks and meditation, presumably hoping that they can go on forever.
The talks are there to serve a well defined purpose and not to be seen as an end in itself. This exercise might be pointless but at the end of this concessionary period would be an end decision.
This process is not a never-ending one and it is a mean towards a specific end.
The quicker this is acknowledged the better.

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kate

pre 16 godina

"...the process is heading toward the six principles that Belgrade had presented to the Contact Group, including that the two sides should eventually launch direct talks.

"Belgrade also believes that status is the key issue, that other topics can also be discussed, that there is no deadline, that the UN Security Council Resolution 1244 is the basis for the talks, and that their outcome must be verified by the UN Security Council."

Very interesting. So maybe Princip is right that Ahtisaari 'lite' will be integrated with some more realistic ground rules.

I actually think that with so much at stake (ie. the avoidance of war), the Troika will really try and make this work backed strongly by the EU.

I suspect that there will be a high level of supervised autonomy with elements of independence, packaged in a way which can be delivered as a win for both sides.

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Nick

pre 16 godina

Kate,

You can package it however you like, autonomy is still autonomy and as such is unacceptable to the Kosova Albanians.

Oh, and talking about packages, why cant we package independence in a way that both sides will accept it?

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kate

pre 16 godina

Nick: Firstly, thank you for your politeness
unlike the ramblings of some posters. One in particular is showing signs of being a sandwich short of a picnic at the moment.

"Oh, and talking about packages, why cant we package independence in a way that both sides will accept it?"

You can, I am sure, predict what I'm going to say. Because Kosovo is not at a starting point of independence; it is still officially part of a sovereign state. Therefore autonomy with elements of independence is far more realistic than the other way round.

Preporučujem 12 Ne preporučujem 2
village-bey

pre 16 godina

Belgrade has become increasingly reliant of the process of talks and meditation, presumably hoping that they can go on forever.
The talks are there to serve a well defined purpose and not to be seen as an end in itself. This exercise might be pointless but at the end of this concessionary period would be an end decision.
This process is not a never-ending one and it is a mean towards a specific end.
The quicker this is acknowledged the better.

Preporučujem 10 Ne preporučujem 5
kate

pre 16 godina

Village-bey - I don't think anyone does think that the talks are endless or hopes that they are. But it may well be that the end recommendation is not independence but something which will be accepted by both sides. Or rather pushed to be accepted so that the solution can go through the UN and not undermine all international processes and laws.

Preporučujem 10 Ne preporučujem 3
kate

pre 16 godina

Agim - are you aware that the number of children you have is no longer a status symbol in the developed world? Or that some couples just can't afford to have loads of kids even if they wanted to because they don't want to live in abject poverty?

Are you aware that in the rest of Europe women actually do other things apart from have one baby after another? They have one or two (or as many as THEY choose), get educated, have a career or whatever but their goals exceed just being a babymaker.

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kate

pre 16 godina

"...the process is heading toward the six principles that Belgrade had presented to the Contact Group, including that the two sides should eventually launch direct talks.

"Belgrade also believes that status is the key issue, that other topics can also be discussed, that there is no deadline, that the UN Security Council Resolution 1244 is the basis for the talks, and that their outcome must be verified by the UN Security Council."

Very interesting. So maybe Princip is right that Ahtisaari 'lite' will be integrated with some more realistic ground rules.

I actually think that with so much at stake (ie. the avoidance of war), the Troika will really try and make this work backed strongly by the EU.

I suspect that there will be a high level of supervised autonomy with elements of independence, packaged in a way which can be delivered as a win for both sides.

Preporučujem 9 Ne preporučujem 3
Walter

pre 16 godina

Most people who have many children are poorly educated and see children as a way out of poverty i.e. more hands to till the fields. If you look at birth rate around the world you will see that it is highest in countries where education standards are low and available arable land cannot sustain them. Unemployment, hunger and poverty are the ultimate result which is followed by wars, emigration, usually illegal. It is quite self explanatory you only need to read Malthusian Theory of Population to understand that. These countries want the developed world to admit their nationals or to provide aid to feed or provide jobs that they have outstripped within their territory. A cow will newer jump over a fence if there is sufficient pasture where she is feeding and the same is true of people. Recently I was purvey to a ship where 900 workers who were from the Balkans, South and South East Asia, Middle East and the Caribbean . These workers worked seven days a week 19 hours per day with very low paw. I did not meet a single worker from Northern Europe. Remember the cow story that is the reason you will not see Swedes or others on these ships. Europe is tired of the population pressure from the Balkans and elsewhere particularly when that brings with it crime and an outlay of tax dollars to sustain the illegal immigrants. In part the developing world is at fault because they historically exploited the less developed world spending 80% of revenue in territories that they colonized on political control to exploit and very little on education and infrastructure thus contributing to poverty, and overpopulation. The methods that they used in the past to control resources exploitation have changed from direct occupation to divide and rule, regime change, as well as financial control through like minded surrogates that they support.

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kate

pre 16 godina

No, Benny, I didn't forget the point about the A Plan at all, I just didn't want to paste virtually the whole article.

That is why I said: "So maybe Princip is right that Ahtisaari 'lite' will be integrated with some more realistic ground rules."

The quote that you have used says exactly that - the A Plan is still officially the basis but can be 'thoroughly expanded'. In other words altered and incorporated into any new plan (which would then go through the UN).

Preporučujem 6 Ne preporučujem 2
Fred

pre 16 godina

kate - go a read the 1974 constitution of Former Yugoslavia and have a close look what was Kosovo's status at that time. How it differed form Serbia's?

See what Mr. Rupel said:
“That status was, in the time of Yugoslavia, practically identical to the status of a republic that no one stopped from becoming a state,” Rupel said.
in an article published by B92 yesterday.

Stop mentioning a war, who will you fight NATO?

It seems that you are proud of the past wars in former Yugoslavia.

Peace to Kosovo & Serbia

Preporučujem 6 Ne preporučujem 3
ruzhni

pre 16 godina

The fact on the constitution 1974 is also that Albanians have misused it and made life of Serbs unberrable. It is the time when the most of the serb population has resettled, and by returning it in year 1999 the ethnic cleamsing continued. This is why the constitution can not be the base point, although minister of Slovenia has the interest to make it so. Do not forget that its them that are designers of the 1974 constitution (in order to lead its nation to the first ever independance).
It would be mature if Albanians would reconsider their position and also their "uncles" position and if the new unrest in the world is what will lead them to the independance and the achievement of their ever dreams, or as I would say it is the time to make an compromise and do not provoke us. The Serbia was never as strong and the nation is likelly to respond on the challenge.
And did you succed in the last 8 years to achieve modern european democratic society, non extreeme with the respect towards your fellow neighbours that are not albanians. I would say that you didn't, and have seen it with my own eis. The world has changed from 1998 till now and the information is much harder to be beautified. I wouldn't count on it if I were you.

It is the time for compromise, or in the all or nothing game its likelly that we will all stay with a big nothing. Just take a glance at Iraq and all is already told.

Peace brothers

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Benny

pre 16 godina

Kate

YEs but you seem to forget that the report says also
"However, the sources add that UN envoy Martti Ahtisaari's plan officially remains the basis for a deal, although it can be "thoroughly expanded."
You just don't accept the facts for some reasonb.

Preporučujem 5 Ne preporučujem 3
adriano

pre 16 godina

i hope you are right kate, i hope that the decision will be pushed so serbia can get its independence.
after all this months debating here you got stuck with a "may not" on independence?
anyway all the best to the all the delegates. they will have an emotional roller coaster ride.

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fratko

pre 16 godina

thanks BiBi

Kate my dear, Kosovo had accordign to the consitution of 1975 autonomy (very little short of a republic), it was even a constitutional member of Yugoslav Federation, the right of a vote) ... The UNMIK administration does not consider the changes that Milosevic made to our constitution in 1989, therefore officialy Kosovo is an autonomous region blla blla. These talks are to enhance that status to supervised independence, which comes short of a full independence, which i think we will never have, cus we will join the EU soon, and part of the independece will be left with the EU, for which we have no deliberations at all.
So if we all have one starting point, and we get the facts right, than we can maybe come closer to have similiar thoughts and visions for the future!

Preporučujem 5 Ne preporučujem 5
village-bey

pre 16 godina

If one negotiating side necessitates the functionality of talks with the expansion of their remit and the insistence of no deadlines knowing full well the other side cannot be convinced on the Serbian regime’s benevolence; that to me sounds like a delaying tactic of no substance. It maybe that there are no real parallel with this but Serbian insistence this time is very reminiscent to previous talks where Serbian claims on ground rules during the day was accompanied by noisy, drunken nights.

Preporučujem 5 Ne preporučujem 3
Ratko

pre 16 godina

Those 2 million albanians - how many of them came illegally into KiM after the illegal attack on Jugoslavija???
This was NOT the population of albanians prior to 99!

Preporučujem 5 Ne preporučujem 1
KS

pre 16 godina

It seems that you are proud of the past wars in former Yugoslavia.

Peace to Kosovo & Serbia
(Fred, 30. August 2007 15:42)

Fred not only that but they are proud that all these wars Slobodan Milosevic took any serb refugee and dumped them into Kosova. The police and military took the Kosovars out of schools and jobs and put in those positions anyone who was a non-albanian (montenegrian, serbian,Bosnian-serb, etc). Than they call us illegal and we've been here since the Illyrians.

Preporučujem 5 Ne preporučujem 2
Delije

pre 16 godina

How about the Albanians give up on independence. How can 8 million or so people give up their land against their will. The Albanians must stop and realise that the Serbs will not walk away from this empty handed and everyones knows this. The Albanians want independence, and thats the last thing I want to happen but who the hell am I anyway, they may or may not get it, but reallity is the will get something. Partition may be the answer, even though they refuse to talk about it. They will sooner or later. I don't see what's so bad about it. That it will start a domino effect around the region, not Serbia's problem.

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benefactor

pre 16 godina

Why doesn't the UN start educating K_Albanians on birth control, and supply them with contraceptives - like they do in other under-developed, poverty stricken places around the world? The burden of too many hungry children to feed is an impediment to any group of people trying to fight out of poverty. The NATO could help in that area too.

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Walter

pre 16 godina

Mat you are correct, but I wonder if this is more of what Malthus theorizes or just simply refusal by workers in more developed countries to do that work. In Canada in our old age homes, at least in my town, you will find 50% of the workers from less developed countries working as caregivers. In Canada we have benefited from the low level of labor immigrants as well as from the professional sector. In several government rum departments the management positions are held by new immigrants from the Balkans. We impoverish the Balkans by taking their best educated which we lack due to retirement.

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Hamid Karzai

pre 16 godina

Serbs should look for a way to enhance their relations with the new state of Kosova.They have some things at stake there ,but not a lot.Kosova is gone. The way demografics are going there there will be more people there than in Serbia. So any dream of a military action will lead to Preshevo valley succession, not to Kosovo reintegracion. The benefits of Serbias holding Kosova will be negative.That place can't feed enough hungry Kosovars, let alone Serbs.The independence of Kosova will be Serbias liberation. I will not be surprised when Serbs will understand that and will celebrate it together. We got rid of you and you got rid of us

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Che Guevara

pre 16 godina

In my opinion, serbs had enough time(about 100 years)to show they know how to govern and develop all parts of ex-Jugoslavija.Instead,they did nothing; more over they repressed,persuaded,tortured,expelled albanian population from their land.In Kosovo,serbs did not govern,they ruled.Europe made a mistake early 1900's.Now is time to correct that mistake they made by giving the albanian people "de jure" the indipendence.Give the albanians the chanse to govern(not rule)over other minorities in New State of Kosovo!!!

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fratko

pre 16 godina

Kate = the fortune teller !!!
I am scared, our future is not so bright, I will go get a second opinion, cus this one i dont like LOL ...
go on B92 publish this one at least? are you feeling like the big brother...cus I feel that my voice is not being heard at all ;-(

Preporučujem 4 Ne preporučujem 5
nikshala

pre 16 godina

Ratko

I know you are looking for reasons to justify the current population make up in Kosovo because then it will confirm you belief that albanians are just these illegal land grabing immigrants who with the help of rest of the world apart from Russia are trying to destroy Serbia, but like I said somewhere else - anybody who has been in Kosovo in the last 8 years and knows the region can tell you that no albanians from Albania came to Kosovo after 99 (when I say no albanian - i mean no significant numbers).

I do not know where you are getting this inforamtion.

I also do not know what figures you have of the albanian population in Kosovo pre 99. but there were always around 2 million albanians in Kosovo in the last few years.

If there has been a slight population increase -its due to high birth rate of albanian in Kosovo. You might not know this but the average Kosovan family has at least 4 or 5 kids. Many have up to 7 or 8. And the minimum have 3.

I only know two families that have two kids.

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Nick

pre 16 godina

Ratko,

There are very few Albanians from Albania in Kosova.

Very few Albanians from Albania even visit Kosova and those that do mostly visit the western towns near the border mainly for medical care and such things.

Most Albanians from Albania that i know work for the UN adminstration or other international organizations and they are not many.

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Agim Elshani

pre 16 godina

Nick , you forgat to tell Ratko that average serb family has one kid and according to gallop pol 60 of married couples don;t like to have kids at all.

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PB

pre 16 godina

The result is very simple. Unless there is a negotiated settlement now, 1) the albanians will have no official recognition, and 2) the lack of resolution will be the pretext for another war in the region whther it be 1, 5,10,20..years from now.

No agreed solution will be bad for all concerned, as neither side will be allowed to enter the EU. The status quo will just be stored up trouble for the future.

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james may

pre 16 godina

Dear B92

The commentary attached to this article regarding Kosovo Albanians awareness of birth control is prejudicial and racist in intent. Open public debate is very valuable but please be aware that hosting this content without any editorial comment (a statement addressing such comments, rather than cutting them) undermines B92's credibility of it's reporting on Kosovo, which is currently the most balanced and informative available in the English language.

James May
YIHR

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ahmet isufi

pre 16 godina

Ratko,
Illegal attack on jugoslavija in 1999.
as everybody can see you are living in the past and is time for you to waake up from e bad dream. With the start of wars in 90 Yugo no longer exists, where have you been boy?

Preporučujem 2 Ne preporučujem 3
Hermon

pre 16 godina

@ Kate
I have been following your comments carefully and i have noticed that in every 2-3 messages you repeat the followin statement.
"Because Kosovo is not at a starting point of independence; it is still officially part of a sovereign state."
It is true tha Kosova is still officialy part of Serbia but dont forget that thats why these negotiations are being conducted. In order to find another solution for Kosova. Because the current status is NOT GOOD. And for your information the current status is full autonomy, and since its not working why should we even consider it?
So please do not mention that fact in the future becaus brngs no benefit to the discussion.
Cheers!!!

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Jovan

pre 16 godina

"Than they call us illegal and we've been here since the Illyrians."
(KS, 30. August 2007 17:13)

besides the wrong orthography...a question towards KS:

and YOU are saying the Serbs "believe in myths"???

they´ve anyway only been invented to caress the albanian soul... it gives them something to be proud of, even if it is only fiction.

and now something completely new for you, KS,... todays Albanians came to the Balkans just in the same time as the Serbs did, namely between the 5th and 7th century.
sorry if it hurts you, but everything else is only wishful thinking.

for all those who want to read some real info:
www.kosovocompromise.com

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nodonedeal

pre 16 godina

Albanians in Kosovo-Metohija have done nothing to help themselves prosper in the last 100 years+ to help themselves - besides complain and demand independence - as if this is some sort of panacea. Do they not see that they are still nothing, without the US/EU backing? Why not improve yourselves on your own? Serbs would not have minded if you wanted to work and improve - as oppossed to complaining and sticking your hands out. I for one, have zero sympathy for K_Albanians. You have to earn and work for your respect. There is no free lunch in the West. You'll see.

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GSP

pre 16 godina

Hamid writes - ...They have some things at stake there ,but not a lot.Kosova is gone...

Kosova is gone, correct! It's KOSOVO! Thank you for your clarification

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Boban

pre 16 godina

"about 100 years"
In those 100 years albanians have killed and driven out Serbs from Kosovo. Lets not forget he mass illegal migration of albanians to Kosovo from Albania during WW2.

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JHam

pre 16 godina

Please December 10th hurry and get here so we can see who is going to declare independence or get told to be quite and negoitate more. Supervised independence is not Independence. I think everyone is assuming that after Dec 10th there will be big parties and all. Well i have marked my calendar and will wait to see what happens. I am not going to boast and line dance like some posters. I will leave that to others to do.

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Jovan

pre 16 godina

Give the albanians the chanse to govern(not rule)over other minorities in New State of Kosovo!!!
(Che Guevara, 31. August 2007 00:03)

to the south-american guerillero: I am afraid you will have to continue dreaming of that "chanse"!

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Luke

pre 16 godina

The situation has been compared with anything from Northern Cyprus to Vatican or Texas. Here's another parallel, I hope you bear with me through it.

In my opinion, a relationship between a majority and a minority should be that of a loving parent and a respectful child sharing a common household.

In the case that interests us all, however, the parent has not been very loving nor the child respectful.

When the child got rebellious,
the parent grabbed a knife and chased the child out of the house. The child got help from his uncle, who beat up the parent until he let go of the
knife and let the child move back in to child's room with the uncle there to protect the child.

For now, the child is living with his uncle in his room and both want to separate the child's room from the rest of the house and get rid of the
influence of the parent. The parent is keen to keep the child and especially the room as part of his house. Though the parent has little control over the child, he has with the help of his cousin so far managed to avert any decisions aimed at separating the room.

So, essentially, we are speaking whether we can trust the parent in having control over the child and the child's room. The relationship has not been calm in past, and the parent has had some serrious fights with his neighbours recently, too. Or should the room be cut off from the rest of the house and should the child be let to have his own separate life, breaking the traditional bond in a serious way.

So, for example, Kate is obviously for "family values" and wants a valid high court order for separation, or otherwise the traditional bond of family should hold. Ahmet ants the child to have a chance to live on his
own and have his room for himself, and thinks it is a proven case that the parent cannot be trusted.

And now the representatives of both the child and the parent are having indirect talks in Vienna to find a solution to their problem.

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mat

pre 16 godina

yes kate
and that is the exact reason why europe will face a serious crisis in 50 years.

there are fewer to support the aging population. either make more kids or import. that's a decision a lot of european countries will face.

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Nick

pre 16 godina

Kate,

The natality rate in Kosova was high due to the fact that most of the population lived in rural areas before the war.

The rural areas were viewed by Serbia as potential hot spots of rebellion and were therefore suppressed and impoverished, which naturally results in higher natality.

With the ending of the war and a percentage of the rural population moving to the cities, the birthrates will gradually stabilize.

Furthermore, please spare us the lessons on emancipation of women. While the Albanian society is not exactly an example for Women’s Rights, Serbia isn’t that much better either. Most of Serbia, except for Belgrade and perhaps Vojvodina are similar in this aspect.

Do not forget that we have lived with Serbs for centuries, and while you may fool readers who do not have sufficient knowledge of Serbian society and social structures you certainly are not going to be able to fool me or other Kosova Albanian readers here. Serbs are in general a very Patriarchal society, much like Kosova Albanians and sometimes even more so.

If your intention is to educate us on Women’s rights, then perhaps you should start with Serbia first and work your way down.

B92

By allowing offensive comments such as the one from "benefactor" you are opening the door to a stream of inappropriate comments. I don’t know who is moderating these forums now, but it certainly seems that you have considerably lowered the criteria.

While i have nothing but the deepest respect for enabling us Kosova Albanians to express our opinions here i must ask you to be a little more rigorous when permitting the posting of comments.

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Benny

pre 16 godina

First I hope the B92 will publish this long text
I want to thank and appologize to the moderator of B92 it will really take a lot of space but i think with a good intention everyone in this forum when talking about Serbia and Kosovo should be interested to read the facts before they make the comments
(
To Mr. JOVAN
I don't understand why most of you serbian posters are so unrealistic even nowdays after all these war in Fyrom. Kosovo has always been an Albanian territory, and it's not only theAlbanians that are saying this, but every historical book (except the one created by Academy of science and culture in Belgrade)in the world. Albanians are descendants of Illyrians. Illyria's territory reached the Danub river.
The slavs came from today's north Poland, Russia, from Biellorussia, and occupied the Illyrian tribes there where today is Serbia, Bulgary, Macedonia and other slavic people.
They assimilated the illyrian population and formed their own slavic states. Albanians were the only Illirians that rezisted assimilation. Serbs are slavs, speak slavic, how can you say that Kosovo, the Ancient Dardhania, an Illyrian tribe, is serbian? They speak albanian language, which is one of the oldest languages descends from the greek times. Albanian language doesn't derive from any other language.
Serbian language derives from russian, from slavic tribes. How can you say that Kosovo is Serbian?

Go and read some real historical materials, not only serbian propaganda history. You may read all famous encyclopedias on the web, and they say exactly what i quoted here.

Why do you keep on lying and believing nationalists false propaganda?
I will give you some brief facts and will atach to it a link where all of you including Albanians can learn their ancient disputes properly.
When the Roman Empire divided into east and west in 395, the territories of modern Albania became part of the Byzantine Empire. As in the Roman Empire, some Illyrians rose to positions of eminence in the new empire. Three of the emperors who shaped the early history of Byzantium (reigning from 491 to 565) were of Illyrian origin: Anastasius I, Justin I, and—the most celebrated of Byzantine emperors—Justinian I.
In the first decades under Byzantine rule (until 461), Illyria suffered the devastation of raids by Visigoths, Huns, and Ostrogoths. Not long after these barbarian invaders swept through the Balkans, the Slavs appeared. Between the 6th and 8th centuries they settled in Illyrian territories and proceeded to assimilate Illyrian tribes in much of what is now Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Serbia. The tribes of southern Illyria, however—including modern Albania—averted assimilation and preserved their native tongue.

In the course of several centuries, under the impact of Roman, Byzantine, and Slavic cultures, the tribes of southern Illyria underwent a transformation, and a transition occurred from the old Illyrian population to a new Albanian one. As a consequence, from the 8th to the 11th century, the name Illyria gradually gave way to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century AD by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, of the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbëri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage. (Scholars have not been able to determine the origin of Shqipëria, the Albanians' own name for their land, which is believed to have supplanted the name Albania during the 16th and 17th centuries. It probably was derived from shqipe, or “eagle,” which, modified into shqipëria, became “the land of the eagle.”)

Long before that event, Christianity had become the established religion in Albania, supplanting pagan polytheism and eclipsing for the most part the humanistic world outlook and institutions inherited from the Greek and Roman civilizations. But, though the country was in the fold of Byzantium, Albanian Christians remained under the jurisdiction of the Roman pope until 732. In that year the iconoclast Byzantine emperor Leo III, angered by Albanian archbishops because they had supported Rome in the Iconoclastic Controversy, detached the Albanian church from the Roman pope and placed it under the patriarch of Constantinople. When the Christian church split in 1054 between the East and Rome, southern Albania retained its tie to Constantinople while northern Albania reverted to the jurisdiction of Rome. This split in the Albanian church marked the first significant religious fragmentation of the country.
Owing partly to the weakness of the Byzantine Empire, Albania, beginning in the 9th century, came under the domination, in whole or in part, of a succession of foreign powers: Bulgarians, Norman crusaders, the Angevins of southern Italy, Serbs, and Venetians. The final occupation of the country in 1347 by the Serbs, led by Stefan Dušan, caused massive migrations of Albanians abroad, especially to Greece and the Aegean islands. By the mid-14th century, Byzantine rule had come to an end in Albania, after nearly 1,000 years.
A few decades later the country was confronted with a new threat, that of the Turks, who at this juncture were expanding their power in the Balkans. The Ottoman Turks invaded Albania in 1388 and completed the occupation of the country about four decades later (1430). But after 1443 an Albanian of military genius—Gjergj Kastrioti (1405–68), known as Skanderbeg—rallied the Albanian princes and succeeded in driving the occupiers out. For the next 25 years, operating out of his stronghold in the mountain town of Krujë, Skanderbeg frustrated every attempt by the Turks to regain Albania, which they envisioned as a springboard for the invasion of Italy and western Europe. His unequal fight against the mightiest power of the time won the esteem of Europe as well as some support in the form of money and military aid from Naples, the papacy, Venice, and Ragusa. After he died, Albanian resistance gradually collapsed, enabling the Turks to reoccupy the country by 1506.

Skanderbeg's long struggle to keep Albania free became highly significant to the Albanian people, as it strengthened their solidarity, made them more conscious of their national identity, and served later as a great source of inspiration in their struggle for national unity, freedom, and independence.
And this is where the turning pont for most albanian religions and geographic point.
The Turks established their dominion over Albania just as the Renaissance began to unfold in Europe, so that, cut off from contact and exchanges with western Europe, Albania had no chance to participate in, or benefit from, the humanistic achievements of that era. Conquest also caused great suffering and vast destruction of the country's economy, commerce, art, and culture. Moreover, to escape persecution by their conquerors, about one-fourth of the country's population fled abroad to southern Italy, Sicily, and the Dalmatian coast.
Although the Turks ruled Albania for more than four centuries, they were unable to extend their authority throughout the country. In the highland regions Turkish authorities exercised only a formal sovereignty, as the highlanders refused to pay taxes, serve in the army, or surrender their arms—although they did pay an annual tribute to Constantinople.

Albanians rose in rebellion time and again against Ottoman occupation. In order to check the ravages of Albanian resistance—which was partly motivated by religious feelings, namely, defense of the Christian faith—as well as to bring Albania spiritually closer to Turkey, the Ottomans initiated a systematic drive toward the end of the 16th century to Islamize the population. This drive continued through the following century, by the end of which two-thirds of the people had converted to Islam. A major reason Albanians became Muslims was to escape Turkish violence and exploitation, an instance of which was a crushing tax that Christians would have to pay if they refused to convert.

Islamization aggravated the religious fragmentation of Albanian society, which had first appeared in the Middle Ages and which was later used by Constantinople and Albania's neighbours in attempts to divide and denationalize the Albanian people. Hence leaders of the Albanian national movement in the 19th century used the rallying cry “The religion of Albanians is Albanianism” in order to overcome religious divisions and foster national unity.

The basis of Ottoman rule in Albania was a feudalmilitary system of landed estates, called timars, which were awarded to military lords for loyalty and service to the empire. As Ottoman power began to decline in the 18th century, the central authority of the empire in Albania gave way to the local authority of autonomy-minded lords. The most successful of these lords were three generations of pashas of the Bushati family, who dominated most of northern Albania from 1757 to 1831, and Ali Pasa Tepelenë of Janina (now Ioánnina, Greece), a colourful Oriental-type despot who ruled over southern Albania and northern Greece from 1788 to 1822. These pashas created separate states within the Ottoman state until they were overthrown by the sultan.

After the fall of the pashas, in 1831 Turkey officially abolished the timar system. In the wake of its collapse, economic and social power passed from the feudal lords to private landowning beys and, in the northern highlands, to tribal chieftains called bajraktars, who presided over given territories with rigid patriarchal societies that were often torn by blood feuds. Peasants who were formerly serfs now worked on the estates of the beys as tenant farmers.

Ottoman rule in Albania remained backward and oppressive to the end. In these circumstances, many Albanians went abroad in search of careers and advancement within the empire, and an unusually large number of them, in proportion to Albania's population, rose to positions of prominence as government and military leaders. More than two dozen grand viziers (similar to prime ministers) of Turkey were of Albanian origin.


And one of the most important topics where Serbs should focus on is:
By the mid-19th century Turkey was in the throes of the “Eastern Question,” as the peoples of the Balkans, including Albanians, sought to realize their national aspirations. To defend and promote their national interests, Albanians met in Prizren, a town in Kosovo, in 1878 and founded the Albanian League. The league had two main goals, one political and the other cultural. First, it strove (unsuccessfully) to unify all Albanian territories—at the time divided among the four vilayets, or provinces, of Kosovo, Shkodër, Monastir, and Janina—into one autonomous state within the framework of the Ottoman Empire. Second, it spearheaded a movement to develop Albanian language, literature, education, and culture. In line with the second program, in 1908 Albanian leaders met in the town of Monastir (now Bitola, Macedonia) and adopted a national alphabet. Based mostly on the Latin script, this supplanted several other alphabets, including Arabic and Greek, that were in use until then.
The Albanian League was suppressed by the Turks in 1881, in part because they were alarmed by its strong nationalistic orientation. By then, however, the league had become a powerful symbol of Albania's national awakening, and its ideas and objectives fueled the drive that culminated later in national independence.

When the Young Turks, who seized power in Istanbul in 1908, ignored their commitments to Albanians to institute democratic reforms and to grant autonomy, Albanians embarked on an armed struggle, which, at the end of three years (1910–12), forced the Turks to agree, in effect, to grant their demands. Alarmed at the prospect of Albanian autonomy, Albania's Balkan neighbours, who had already made plans to partition the region, declared war on Turkey in October 1912, and Greek, Serbian, and Montenegrin armies advanced into Albanian territories.

To prevent the annihilation of the country, Albanian national delegates met at a congress in Vlorë. They were led by Ismail Qemal, an Albanian who had held several high positions in the Ottoman government. On Nov. 28, 1912, the congress issued the Vlorë proclamation, which declared Albania's independence.
Shortly after the defeat of Turkey by the Balkan allies, a conference of ambassadors of the Great Powers (Britain, Germany, Russia, Austria-Hungary, France, and Italy) convened in London in December 1912 to settle the outstanding issues raised by the conflict. With support given to the Albanians by Austria-Hungary and Italy, the conference agreed to create an independent state of Albania. But, in drawing the borders of the new state, owing to strong pressure from Albania's neighbours, the Great Powers largely ignored demographic realities and ceded the vast region of Kosovo to Serbia, while, in the south, Greece was given the greater part of Çamëria, a part of the old region of Epirus centred on the Thíamis River. Many observers doubted whether the new state would be viable with about one-half of Albanian lands and population left outside its borders, especially since these lands were the most productive in food grains and livestock. On the other hand, a small community of about 35,000 ethnic Greeks was included within Albania's borders. (However, Greece, which counted all Albanians of the Orthodox faith—20 percent of the population—as Greeks, claimed that the number of ethnic Greeks was considerably larger.) Thereafter, Kosovo and the Greek minority remained troublesome issues in Albanian-Greek and Albanian-Yugoslav relations.
The Great Powers also appointed a German prince, Wilhelm zu Wied, as ruler of Albania. Wilhelm arrived in Albania in March 1914, but his unfamiliarity with Albania and its problems, compounded by complications arising from the outbreak of World War I, led him to depart from Albania six months later. The war plunged the country into a new crisis, as the armies of Austria-Hungary, France, Italy, Greece, Montenegro, and Serbia invaded and occupied it. Left without any political leadership or authority, the country was in chaos, and its very fate hung in the balance. At the Paris Peace Conference after the war, the extinction of Albania was averted largely through the efforts of U.S. President Woodrow Wilson, who vetoed a plan by Britain, France, and Italy to partition Albania among its neighbours.

A national congress, held in Lushnje in January 1920, laid the foundations of a new government. In December of that year Albania, this time with the help of Britain, gained admission to the League of Nations, thereby winning for the first time international recognition as a sovereign nation and state.

Maybe some other time we will elaborate on most recent history which i think will not benefit to the Serbs in this forum sunce it goes against their propaganda
Link http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-42640/Albania#476152.hook
Thank you for your understanding

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Gezim

pre 16 godina

wow wow wow To: all posters in B92.
You people you seems to have so much time to discus the politics, and have forgoten about the daily problems, and the situation that we are.
To Serb posters, i see that some of the posters anr very nacionalist, please be more polite, we are not here to kill eachother.
And to my fellow Albanians, whey dont you tray to do some changes in our citys, with our municipality, you see how many problems we have, why not critisazing our gouverment that they are not doing nothing, stop with ths status, its not up to us or up to the serbs, someone third is going to impose a solution and give an end to this.
I'm sick of it everything, day by day the situation gets worst.
Tell me please when the Independence comes, what than , what is going to be with people when they see that still the economy didnt change a bit, but the situation gets worst.
Why can some one please tell me why there is so much concentration only to the Independence, why not at the Economy, how can we improve the social life in Kosovo, the status will not resolve all the problems, you know that we have only 700 milions in our budget.
Please wake up, and open your eys.
We just want to live and have a job, and mind our own bussines.

Peace to All
Gezim

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lazer

pre 16 godina

So...New York, huh.
well, since I am here already I guess I'll try to get the inside scoop, since I will have some kind of access to at least the Kosovan side.(Albanian)

Walter, I'll be yelling so you can here me in Western Canada.
Its funny how everything gravitates towards US.
How come they did not go to Moscow?
Or at least Paracin?
You guys (Serbian), should be nicer and more insightful about the whole thing.

Kate=Princip, which one are you today?

**Peace**

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Walter

pre 16 godina

Mr. May the issue of birth rate was raised by others as a factor in Kosovo demographics. How it is racist to state that high birth rate is associated with poverty and illiteracy? How it is racist to state that high birth rate is associated with emigration and the need for aid to overpopulated regions by developing countries? How is it racist to suggest that ethnic wars and crime are also associated with poverty, and unemployment? Economic crisis in part created intentionally by the IMF and the World Bank that contributed to destabilization of Yugoslavia. When nations are economically strong with well developed education systems that allow for introspection, discussion and open debate the issues of demographics seldom leads to conflict. These comments which I feel are directed at all societies which are in transition in their development from clannism and paternalism to a more democratic social organization is not intent at racism since this comment applies to many parts of the Balkans. I have met many women from the Balkans who are ten times as smart as their husbands but the husband still lord over them. These women double shift while the husband sips coffee or jaws with his buddies while the woman serves washes dishes and does all other household chores. A 5 year old male child in Herzegovina I remember visiting cousins in a distant village and my female cousins had to wash my feet which I was capable of washing. Recently there has been a reemergence of kannun throughout Albania and Kosovo. Saying that this return to clan mentality is also associated with high birth rate, low education standards, agrarian societies and other economic ills is in no way racist. Does it make the Albanian demographic example any less or any more true or any more acceptable to you Mr. May if I had made my statement more general. Albanian, Croats and Serb men in the past and some more and some less today equated number of children with machismo and add to this ignorance, and religion and the need for more fingers to weed the fields this could apply to three quarters of the developing world. Some societies have a longer road to travel than others all you need to do is look at percentage of people in any society working in agriculture to see how far that society needs to travel. In America about 3% of the population works in Agriculture while in Serbia it is 30% and in Albania 46%.

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KS

pre 16 godina

Jovan how do you expect me to take you seriously when you give me a source that is absolutely a joke?

That website is run by the Belgrade lobbyists, I know this because I read an article about this website in GOOGLE NEWS.

Why does it offend you that Albanians whether from Kosova, Albania, Macedonia, Presheva valley, Montenegro, and other places are PROUD PEOPLE.

Albanians are proud people, the end. Albanians are direct descendants of Illyrians, their greatest hero is Gjergj Kastrioti who saved Europe during Renaissance era from the Ottomans until he died.

Albanians have contributed to humanitarian causes (Saint Mother Tereza), etc etc.

ALbanians are loving and kind people, no matter how much serbianna tries to portray ALbanians as war-mongers or mafia driven people the humorous it gets.

I'm a Kosovar. I'm proud.

BTw did you ever think that I may be a Kosovar-Bosnian from Prizren? OR do you recognize any pro-independence poster as "albanians"?

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village-bey

pre 16 godina

Belgrade has become increasingly reliant of the process of talks and meditation, presumably hoping that they can go on forever.
The talks are there to serve a well defined purpose and not to be seen as an end in itself. This exercise might be pointless but at the end of this concessionary period would be an end decision.
This process is not a never-ending one and it is a mean towards a specific end.
The quicker this is acknowledged the better.

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fratko

pre 16 godina

Kate = the fortune teller !!!
I am scared, our future is not so bright, I will go get a second opinion, cus this one i dont like LOL ...
go on B92 publish this one at least? are you feeling like the big brother...cus I feel that my voice is not being heard at all ;-(

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fratko

pre 16 godina

thanks BiBi

Kate my dear, Kosovo had accordign to the consitution of 1975 autonomy (very little short of a republic), it was even a constitutional member of Yugoslav Federation, the right of a vote) ... The UNMIK administration does not consider the changes that Milosevic made to our constitution in 1989, therefore officialy Kosovo is an autonomous region blla blla. These talks are to enhance that status to supervised independence, which comes short of a full independence, which i think we will never have, cus we will join the EU soon, and part of the independece will be left with the EU, for which we have no deliberations at all.
So if we all have one starting point, and we get the facts right, than we can maybe come closer to have similiar thoughts and visions for the future!

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adriano

pre 16 godina

i hope you are right kate, i hope that the decision will be pushed so serbia can get its independence.
after all this months debating here you got stuck with a "may not" on independence?
anyway all the best to the all the delegates. they will have an emotional roller coaster ride.

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kate

pre 16 godina

"...the process is heading toward the six principles that Belgrade had presented to the Contact Group, including that the two sides should eventually launch direct talks.

"Belgrade also believes that status is the key issue, that other topics can also be discussed, that there is no deadline, that the UN Security Council Resolution 1244 is the basis for the talks, and that their outcome must be verified by the UN Security Council."

Very interesting. So maybe Princip is right that Ahtisaari 'lite' will be integrated with some more realistic ground rules.

I actually think that with so much at stake (ie. the avoidance of war), the Troika will really try and make this work backed strongly by the EU.

I suspect that there will be a high level of supervised autonomy with elements of independence, packaged in a way which can be delivered as a win for both sides.

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kate

pre 16 godina

Village-bey - I don't think anyone does think that the talks are endless or hopes that they are. But it may well be that the end recommendation is not independence but something which will be accepted by both sides. Or rather pushed to be accepted so that the solution can go through the UN and not undermine all international processes and laws.

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Benny

pre 16 godina

Kate

YEs but you seem to forget that the report says also
"However, the sources add that UN envoy Martti Ahtisaari's plan officially remains the basis for a deal, although it can be "thoroughly expanded."
You just don't accept the facts for some reasonb.

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Nick

pre 16 godina

Kate,

You can package it however you like, autonomy is still autonomy and as such is unacceptable to the Kosova Albanians.

Oh, and talking about packages, why cant we package independence in a way that both sides will accept it?

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Fred

pre 16 godina

kate - go a read the 1974 constitution of Former Yugoslavia and have a close look what was Kosovo's status at that time. How it differed form Serbia's?

See what Mr. Rupel said:
“That status was, in the time of Yugoslavia, practically identical to the status of a republic that no one stopped from becoming a state,” Rupel said.
in an article published by B92 yesterday.

Stop mentioning a war, who will you fight NATO?

It seems that you are proud of the past wars in former Yugoslavia.

Peace to Kosovo & Serbia

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village-bey

pre 16 godina

If one negotiating side necessitates the functionality of talks with the expansion of their remit and the insistence of no deadlines knowing full well the other side cannot be convinced on the Serbian regime’s benevolence; that to me sounds like a delaying tactic of no substance. It maybe that there are no real parallel with this but Serbian insistence this time is very reminiscent to previous talks where Serbian claims on ground rules during the day was accompanied by noisy, drunken nights.

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ahmet isufi

pre 16 godina

Ratko,
Illegal attack on jugoslavija in 1999.
as everybody can see you are living in the past and is time for you to waake up from e bad dream. With the start of wars in 90 Yugo no longer exists, where have you been boy?

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Agim Elshani

pre 16 godina

Nick , you forgat to tell Ratko that average serb family has one kid and according to gallop pol 60 of married couples don;t like to have kids at all.

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Che Guevara

pre 16 godina

In my opinion, serbs had enough time(about 100 years)to show they know how to govern and develop all parts of ex-Jugoslavija.Instead,they did nothing; more over they repressed,persuaded,tortured,expelled albanian population from their land.In Kosovo,serbs did not govern,they ruled.Europe made a mistake early 1900's.Now is time to correct that mistake they made by giving the albanian people "de jure" the indipendence.Give the albanians the chanse to govern(not rule)over other minorities in New State of Kosovo!!!

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kate

pre 16 godina

No, Benny, I didn't forget the point about the A Plan at all, I just didn't want to paste virtually the whole article.

That is why I said: "So maybe Princip is right that Ahtisaari 'lite' will be integrated with some more realistic ground rules."

The quote that you have used says exactly that - the A Plan is still officially the basis but can be 'thoroughly expanded'. In other words altered and incorporated into any new plan (which would then go through the UN).

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kate

pre 16 godina

Nick: Firstly, thank you for your politeness
unlike the ramblings of some posters. One in particular is showing signs of being a sandwich short of a picnic at the moment.

"Oh, and talking about packages, why cant we package independence in a way that both sides will accept it?"

You can, I am sure, predict what I'm going to say. Because Kosovo is not at a starting point of independence; it is still officially part of a sovereign state. Therefore autonomy with elements of independence is far more realistic than the other way round.

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Luke

pre 16 godina

The situation has been compared with anything from Northern Cyprus to Vatican or Texas. Here's another parallel, I hope you bear with me through it.

In my opinion, a relationship between a majority and a minority should be that of a loving parent and a respectful child sharing a common household.

In the case that interests us all, however, the parent has not been very loving nor the child respectful.

When the child got rebellious,
the parent grabbed a knife and chased the child out of the house. The child got help from his uncle, who beat up the parent until he let go of the
knife and let the child move back in to child's room with the uncle there to protect the child.

For now, the child is living with his uncle in his room and both want to separate the child's room from the rest of the house and get rid of the
influence of the parent. The parent is keen to keep the child and especially the room as part of his house. Though the parent has little control over the child, he has with the help of his cousin so far managed to avert any decisions aimed at separating the room.

So, essentially, we are speaking whether we can trust the parent in having control over the child and the child's room. The relationship has not been calm in past, and the parent has had some serrious fights with his neighbours recently, too. Or should the room be cut off from the rest of the house and should the child be let to have his own separate life, breaking the traditional bond in a serious way.

So, for example, Kate is obviously for "family values" and wants a valid high court order for separation, or otherwise the traditional bond of family should hold. Ahmet ants the child to have a chance to live on his
own and have his room for himself, and thinks it is a proven case that the parent cannot be trusted.

And now the representatives of both the child and the parent are having indirect talks in Vienna to find a solution to their problem.

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KS

pre 16 godina

It seems that you are proud of the past wars in former Yugoslavia.

Peace to Kosovo & Serbia
(Fred, 30. August 2007 15:42)

Fred not only that but they are proud that all these wars Slobodan Milosevic took any serb refugee and dumped them into Kosova. The police and military took the Kosovars out of schools and jobs and put in those positions anyone who was a non-albanian (montenegrian, serbian,Bosnian-serb, etc). Than they call us illegal and we've been here since the Illyrians.

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nikshala

pre 16 godina

Ratko

I know you are looking for reasons to justify the current population make up in Kosovo because then it will confirm you belief that albanians are just these illegal land grabing immigrants who with the help of rest of the world apart from Russia are trying to destroy Serbia, but like I said somewhere else - anybody who has been in Kosovo in the last 8 years and knows the region can tell you that no albanians from Albania came to Kosovo after 99 (when I say no albanian - i mean no significant numbers).

I do not know where you are getting this inforamtion.

I also do not know what figures you have of the albanian population in Kosovo pre 99. but there were always around 2 million albanians in Kosovo in the last few years.

If there has been a slight population increase -its due to high birth rate of albanian in Kosovo. You might not know this but the average Kosovan family has at least 4 or 5 kids. Many have up to 7 or 8. And the minimum have 3.

I only know two families that have two kids.

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Nick

pre 16 godina

Ratko,

There are very few Albanians from Albania in Kosova.

Very few Albanians from Albania even visit Kosova and those that do mostly visit the western towns near the border mainly for medical care and such things.

Most Albanians from Albania that i know work for the UN adminstration or other international organizations and they are not many.

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mat

pre 16 godina

yes kate
and that is the exact reason why europe will face a serious crisis in 50 years.

there are fewer to support the aging population. either make more kids or import. that's a decision a lot of european countries will face.

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Hamid Karzai

pre 16 godina

Serbs should look for a way to enhance their relations with the new state of Kosova.They have some things at stake there ,but not a lot.Kosova is gone. The way demografics are going there there will be more people there than in Serbia. So any dream of a military action will lead to Preshevo valley succession, not to Kosovo reintegracion. The benefits of Serbias holding Kosova will be negative.That place can't feed enough hungry Kosovars, let alone Serbs.The independence of Kosova will be Serbias liberation. I will not be surprised when Serbs will understand that and will celebrate it together. We got rid of you and you got rid of us

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Ratko

pre 16 godina

Those 2 million albanians - how many of them came illegally into KiM after the illegal attack on Jugoslavija???
This was NOT the population of albanians prior to 99!

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Delije

pre 16 godina

How about the Albanians give up on independence. How can 8 million or so people give up their land against their will. The Albanians must stop and realise that the Serbs will not walk away from this empty handed and everyones knows this. The Albanians want independence, and thats the last thing I want to happen but who the hell am I anyway, they may or may not get it, but reallity is the will get something. Partition may be the answer, even though they refuse to talk about it. They will sooner or later. I don't see what's so bad about it. That it will start a domino effect around the region, not Serbia's problem.

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kate

pre 16 godina

Agim - are you aware that the number of children you have is no longer a status symbol in the developed world? Or that some couples just can't afford to have loads of kids even if they wanted to because they don't want to live in abject poverty?

Are you aware that in the rest of Europe women actually do other things apart from have one baby after another? They have one or two (or as many as THEY choose), get educated, have a career or whatever but their goals exceed just being a babymaker.

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Hermon

pre 16 godina

@ Kate
I have been following your comments carefully and i have noticed that in every 2-3 messages you repeat the followin statement.
"Because Kosovo is not at a starting point of independence; it is still officially part of a sovereign state."
It is true tha Kosova is still officialy part of Serbia but dont forget that thats why these negotiations are being conducted. In order to find another solution for Kosova. Because the current status is NOT GOOD. And for your information the current status is full autonomy, and since its not working why should we even consider it?
So please do not mention that fact in the future becaus brngs no benefit to the discussion.
Cheers!!!

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PB

pre 16 godina

The result is very simple. Unless there is a negotiated settlement now, 1) the albanians will have no official recognition, and 2) the lack of resolution will be the pretext for another war in the region whther it be 1, 5,10,20..years from now.

No agreed solution will be bad for all concerned, as neither side will be allowed to enter the EU. The status quo will just be stored up trouble for the future.

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benefactor

pre 16 godina

Why doesn't the UN start educating K_Albanians on birth control, and supply them with contraceptives - like they do in other under-developed, poverty stricken places around the world? The burden of too many hungry children to feed is an impediment to any group of people trying to fight out of poverty. The NATO could help in that area too.

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Walter

pre 16 godina

Most people who have many children are poorly educated and see children as a way out of poverty i.e. more hands to till the fields. If you look at birth rate around the world you will see that it is highest in countries where education standards are low and available arable land cannot sustain them. Unemployment, hunger and poverty are the ultimate result which is followed by wars, emigration, usually illegal. It is quite self explanatory you only need to read Malthusian Theory of Population to understand that. These countries want the developed world to admit their nationals or to provide aid to feed or provide jobs that they have outstripped within their territory. A cow will newer jump over a fence if there is sufficient pasture where she is feeding and the same is true of people. Recently I was purvey to a ship where 900 workers who were from the Balkans, South and South East Asia, Middle East and the Caribbean . These workers worked seven days a week 19 hours per day with very low paw. I did not meet a single worker from Northern Europe. Remember the cow story that is the reason you will not see Swedes or others on these ships. Europe is tired of the population pressure from the Balkans and elsewhere particularly when that brings with it crime and an outlay of tax dollars to sustain the illegal immigrants. In part the developing world is at fault because they historically exploited the less developed world spending 80% of revenue in territories that they colonized on political control to exploit and very little on education and infrastructure thus contributing to poverty, and overpopulation. The methods that they used in the past to control resources exploitation have changed from direct occupation to divide and rule, regime change, as well as financial control through like minded surrogates that they support.

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Walter

pre 16 godina

Mat you are correct, but I wonder if this is more of what Malthus theorizes or just simply refusal by workers in more developed countries to do that work. In Canada in our old age homes, at least in my town, you will find 50% of the workers from less developed countries working as caregivers. In Canada we have benefited from the low level of labor immigrants as well as from the professional sector. In several government rum departments the management positions are held by new immigrants from the Balkans. We impoverish the Balkans by taking their best educated which we lack due to retirement.

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ruzhni

pre 16 godina

The fact on the constitution 1974 is also that Albanians have misused it and made life of Serbs unberrable. It is the time when the most of the serb population has resettled, and by returning it in year 1999 the ethnic cleamsing continued. This is why the constitution can not be the base point, although minister of Slovenia has the interest to make it so. Do not forget that its them that are designers of the 1974 constitution (in order to lead its nation to the first ever independance).
It would be mature if Albanians would reconsider their position and also their "uncles" position and if the new unrest in the world is what will lead them to the independance and the achievement of their ever dreams, or as I would say it is the time to make an compromise and do not provoke us. The Serbia was never as strong and the nation is likelly to respond on the challenge.
And did you succed in the last 8 years to achieve modern european democratic society, non extreeme with the respect towards your fellow neighbours that are not albanians. I would say that you didn't, and have seen it with my own eis. The world has changed from 1998 till now and the information is much harder to be beautified. I wouldn't count on it if I were you.

It is the time for compromise, or in the all or nothing game its likelly that we will all stay with a big nothing. Just take a glance at Iraq and all is already told.

Peace brothers

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Jovan

pre 16 godina

"Than they call us illegal and we've been here since the Illyrians."
(KS, 30. August 2007 17:13)

besides the wrong orthography...a question towards KS:

and YOU are saying the Serbs "believe in myths"???

they´ve anyway only been invented to caress the albanian soul... it gives them something to be proud of, even if it is only fiction.

and now something completely new for you, KS,... todays Albanians came to the Balkans just in the same time as the Serbs did, namely between the 5th and 7th century.
sorry if it hurts you, but everything else is only wishful thinking.

for all those who want to read some real info:
www.kosovocompromise.com

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Benny

pre 16 godina

First I hope the B92 will publish this long text
I want to thank and appologize to the moderator of B92 it will really take a lot of space but i think with a good intention everyone in this forum when talking about Serbia and Kosovo should be interested to read the facts before they make the comments
(
To Mr. JOVAN
I don't understand why most of you serbian posters are so unrealistic even nowdays after all these war in Fyrom. Kosovo has always been an Albanian territory, and it's not only theAlbanians that are saying this, but every historical book (except the one created by Academy of science and culture in Belgrade)in the world. Albanians are descendants of Illyrians. Illyria's territory reached the Danub river.
The slavs came from today's north Poland, Russia, from Biellorussia, and occupied the Illyrian tribes there where today is Serbia, Bulgary, Macedonia and other slavic people.
They assimilated the illyrian population and formed their own slavic states. Albanians were the only Illirians that rezisted assimilation. Serbs are slavs, speak slavic, how can you say that Kosovo, the Ancient Dardhania, an Illyrian tribe, is serbian? They speak albanian language, which is one of the oldest languages descends from the greek times. Albanian language doesn't derive from any other language.
Serbian language derives from russian, from slavic tribes. How can you say that Kosovo is Serbian?

Go and read some real historical materials, not only serbian propaganda history. You may read all famous encyclopedias on the web, and they say exactly what i quoted here.

Why do you keep on lying and believing nationalists false propaganda?
I will give you some brief facts and will atach to it a link where all of you including Albanians can learn their ancient disputes properly.
When the Roman Empire divided into east and west in 395, the territories of modern Albania became part of the Byzantine Empire. As in the Roman Empire, some Illyrians rose to positions of eminence in the new empire. Three of the emperors who shaped the early history of Byzantium (reigning from 491 to 565) were of Illyrian origin: Anastasius I, Justin I, and—the most celebrated of Byzantine emperors—Justinian I.
In the first decades under Byzantine rule (until 461), Illyria suffered the devastation of raids by Visigoths, Huns, and Ostrogoths. Not long after these barbarian invaders swept through the Balkans, the Slavs appeared. Between the 6th and 8th centuries they settled in Illyrian territories and proceeded to assimilate Illyrian tribes in much of what is now Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Serbia. The tribes of southern Illyria, however—including modern Albania—averted assimilation and preserved their native tongue.

In the course of several centuries, under the impact of Roman, Byzantine, and Slavic cultures, the tribes of southern Illyria underwent a transformation, and a transition occurred from the old Illyrian population to a new Albanian one. As a consequence, from the 8th to the 11th century, the name Illyria gradually gave way to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century AD by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, of the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbëri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage. (Scholars have not been able to determine the origin of Shqipëria, the Albanians' own name for their land, which is believed to have supplanted the name Albania during the 16th and 17th centuries. It probably was derived from shqipe, or “eagle,” which, modified into shqipëria, became “the land of the eagle.”)

Long before that event, Christianity had become the established religion in Albania, supplanting pagan polytheism and eclipsing for the most part the humanistic world outlook and institutions inherited from the Greek and Roman civilizations. But, though the country was in the fold of Byzantium, Albanian Christians remained under the jurisdiction of the Roman pope until 732. In that year the iconoclast Byzantine emperor Leo III, angered by Albanian archbishops because they had supported Rome in the Iconoclastic Controversy, detached the Albanian church from the Roman pope and placed it under the patriarch of Constantinople. When the Christian church split in 1054 between the East and Rome, southern Albania retained its tie to Constantinople while northern Albania reverted to the jurisdiction of Rome. This split in the Albanian church marked the first significant religious fragmentation of the country.
Owing partly to the weakness of the Byzantine Empire, Albania, beginning in the 9th century, came under the domination, in whole or in part, of a succession of foreign powers: Bulgarians, Norman crusaders, the Angevins of southern Italy, Serbs, and Venetians. The final occupation of the country in 1347 by the Serbs, led by Stefan Dušan, caused massive migrations of Albanians abroad, especially to Greece and the Aegean islands. By the mid-14th century, Byzantine rule had come to an end in Albania, after nearly 1,000 years.
A few decades later the country was confronted with a new threat, that of the Turks, who at this juncture were expanding their power in the Balkans. The Ottoman Turks invaded Albania in 1388 and completed the occupation of the country about four decades later (1430). But after 1443 an Albanian of military genius—Gjergj Kastrioti (1405–68), known as Skanderbeg—rallied the Albanian princes and succeeded in driving the occupiers out. For the next 25 years, operating out of his stronghold in the mountain town of Krujë, Skanderbeg frustrated every attempt by the Turks to regain Albania, which they envisioned as a springboard for the invasion of Italy and western Europe. His unequal fight against the mightiest power of the time won the esteem of Europe as well as some support in the form of money and military aid from Naples, the papacy, Venice, and Ragusa. After he died, Albanian resistance gradually collapsed, enabling the Turks to reoccupy the country by 1506.

Skanderbeg's long struggle to keep Albania free became highly significant to the Albanian people, as it strengthened their solidarity, made them more conscious of their national identity, and served later as a great source of inspiration in their struggle for national unity, freedom, and independence.
And this is where the turning pont for most albanian religions and geographic point.
The Turks established their dominion over Albania just as the Renaissance began to unfold in Europe, so that, cut off from contact and exchanges with western Europe, Albania had no chance to participate in, or benefit from, the humanistic achievements of that era. Conquest also caused great suffering and vast destruction of the country's economy, commerce, art, and culture. Moreover, to escape persecution by their conquerors, about one-fourth of the country's population fled abroad to southern Italy, Sicily, and the Dalmatian coast.
Although the Turks ruled Albania for more than four centuries, they were unable to extend their authority throughout the country. In the highland regions Turkish authorities exercised only a formal sovereignty, as the highlanders refused to pay taxes, serve in the army, or surrender their arms—although they did pay an annual tribute to Constantinople.

Albanians rose in rebellion time and again against Ottoman occupation. In order to check the ravages of Albanian resistance—which was partly motivated by religious feelings, namely, defense of the Christian faith—as well as to bring Albania spiritually closer to Turkey, the Ottomans initiated a systematic drive toward the end of the 16th century to Islamize the population. This drive continued through the following century, by the end of which two-thirds of the people had converted to Islam. A major reason Albanians became Muslims was to escape Turkish violence and exploitation, an instance of which was a crushing tax that Christians would have to pay if they refused to convert.

Islamization aggravated the religious fragmentation of Albanian society, which had first appeared in the Middle Ages and which was later used by Constantinople and Albania's neighbours in attempts to divide and denationalize the Albanian people. Hence leaders of the Albanian national movement in the 19th century used the rallying cry “The religion of Albanians is Albanianism” in order to overcome religious divisions and foster national unity.

The basis of Ottoman rule in Albania was a feudalmilitary system of landed estates, called timars, which were awarded to military lords for loyalty and service to the empire. As Ottoman power began to decline in the 18th century, the central authority of the empire in Albania gave way to the local authority of autonomy-minded lords. The most successful of these lords were three generations of pashas of the Bushati family, who dominated most of northern Albania from 1757 to 1831, and Ali Pasa Tepelenë of Janina (now Ioánnina, Greece), a colourful Oriental-type despot who ruled over southern Albania and northern Greece from 1788 to 1822. These pashas created separate states within the Ottoman state until they were overthrown by the sultan.

After the fall of the pashas, in 1831 Turkey officially abolished the timar system. In the wake of its collapse, economic and social power passed from the feudal lords to private landowning beys and, in the northern highlands, to tribal chieftains called bajraktars, who presided over given territories with rigid patriarchal societies that were often torn by blood feuds. Peasants who were formerly serfs now worked on the estates of the beys as tenant farmers.

Ottoman rule in Albania remained backward and oppressive to the end. In these circumstances, many Albanians went abroad in search of careers and advancement within the empire, and an unusually large number of them, in proportion to Albania's population, rose to positions of prominence as government and military leaders. More than two dozen grand viziers (similar to prime ministers) of Turkey were of Albanian origin.


And one of the most important topics where Serbs should focus on is:
By the mid-19th century Turkey was in the throes of the “Eastern Question,” as the peoples of the Balkans, including Albanians, sought to realize their national aspirations. To defend and promote their national interests, Albanians met in Prizren, a town in Kosovo, in 1878 and founded the Albanian League. The league had two main goals, one political and the other cultural. First, it strove (unsuccessfully) to unify all Albanian territories—at the time divided among the four vilayets, or provinces, of Kosovo, Shkodër, Monastir, and Janina—into one autonomous state within the framework of the Ottoman Empire. Second, it spearheaded a movement to develop Albanian language, literature, education, and culture. In line with the second program, in 1908 Albanian leaders met in the town of Monastir (now Bitola, Macedonia) and adopted a national alphabet. Based mostly on the Latin script, this supplanted several other alphabets, including Arabic and Greek, that were in use until then.
The Albanian League was suppressed by the Turks in 1881, in part because they were alarmed by its strong nationalistic orientation. By then, however, the league had become a powerful symbol of Albania's national awakening, and its ideas and objectives fueled the drive that culminated later in national independence.

When the Young Turks, who seized power in Istanbul in 1908, ignored their commitments to Albanians to institute democratic reforms and to grant autonomy, Albanians embarked on an armed struggle, which, at the end of three years (1910–12), forced the Turks to agree, in effect, to grant their demands. Alarmed at the prospect of Albanian autonomy, Albania's Balkan neighbours, who had already made plans to partition the region, declared war on Turkey in October 1912, and Greek, Serbian, and Montenegrin armies advanced into Albanian territories.

To prevent the annihilation of the country, Albanian national delegates met at a congress in Vlorë. They were led by Ismail Qemal, an Albanian who had held several high positions in the Ottoman government. On Nov. 28, 1912, the congress issued the Vlorë proclamation, which declared Albania's independence.
Shortly after the defeat of Turkey by the Balkan allies, a conference of ambassadors of the Great Powers (Britain, Germany, Russia, Austria-Hungary, France, and Italy) convened in London in December 1912 to settle the outstanding issues raised by the conflict. With support given to the Albanians by Austria-Hungary and Italy, the conference agreed to create an independent state of Albania. But, in drawing the borders of the new state, owing to strong pressure from Albania's neighbours, the Great Powers largely ignored demographic realities and ceded the vast region of Kosovo to Serbia, while, in the south, Greece was given the greater part of Çamëria, a part of the old region of Epirus centred on the Thíamis River. Many observers doubted whether the new state would be viable with about one-half of Albanian lands and population left outside its borders, especially since these lands were the most productive in food grains and livestock. On the other hand, a small community of about 35,000 ethnic Greeks was included within Albania's borders. (However, Greece, which counted all Albanians of the Orthodox faith—20 percent of the population—as Greeks, claimed that the number of ethnic Greeks was considerably larger.) Thereafter, Kosovo and the Greek minority remained troublesome issues in Albanian-Greek and Albanian-Yugoslav relations.
The Great Powers also appointed a German prince, Wilhelm zu Wied, as ruler of Albania. Wilhelm arrived in Albania in March 1914, but his unfamiliarity with Albania and its problems, compounded by complications arising from the outbreak of World War I, led him to depart from Albania six months later. The war plunged the country into a new crisis, as the armies of Austria-Hungary, France, Italy, Greece, Montenegro, and Serbia invaded and occupied it. Left without any political leadership or authority, the country was in chaos, and its very fate hung in the balance. At the Paris Peace Conference after the war, the extinction of Albania was averted largely through the efforts of U.S. President Woodrow Wilson, who vetoed a plan by Britain, France, and Italy to partition Albania among its neighbours.

A national congress, held in Lushnje in January 1920, laid the foundations of a new government. In December of that year Albania, this time with the help of Britain, gained admission to the League of Nations, thereby winning for the first time international recognition as a sovereign nation and state.

Maybe some other time we will elaborate on most recent history which i think will not benefit to the Serbs in this forum sunce it goes against their propaganda
Link http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-42640/Albania#476152.hook
Thank you for your understanding

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Nick

pre 16 godina

Kate,

The natality rate in Kosova was high due to the fact that most of the population lived in rural areas before the war.

The rural areas were viewed by Serbia as potential hot spots of rebellion and were therefore suppressed and impoverished, which naturally results in higher natality.

With the ending of the war and a percentage of the rural population moving to the cities, the birthrates will gradually stabilize.

Furthermore, please spare us the lessons on emancipation of women. While the Albanian society is not exactly an example for Women’s Rights, Serbia isn’t that much better either. Most of Serbia, except for Belgrade and perhaps Vojvodina are similar in this aspect.

Do not forget that we have lived with Serbs for centuries, and while you may fool readers who do not have sufficient knowledge of Serbian society and social structures you certainly are not going to be able to fool me or other Kosova Albanian readers here. Serbs are in general a very Patriarchal society, much like Kosova Albanians and sometimes even more so.

If your intention is to educate us on Women’s rights, then perhaps you should start with Serbia first and work your way down.

B92

By allowing offensive comments such as the one from "benefactor" you are opening the door to a stream of inappropriate comments. I don’t know who is moderating these forums now, but it certainly seems that you have considerably lowered the criteria.

While i have nothing but the deepest respect for enabling us Kosova Albanians to express our opinions here i must ask you to be a little more rigorous when permitting the posting of comments.

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lazer

pre 16 godina

So...New York, huh.
well, since I am here already I guess I'll try to get the inside scoop, since I will have some kind of access to at least the Kosovan side.(Albanian)

Walter, I'll be yelling so you can here me in Western Canada.
Its funny how everything gravitates towards US.
How come they did not go to Moscow?
Or at least Paracin?
You guys (Serbian), should be nicer and more insightful about the whole thing.

Kate=Princip, which one are you today?

**Peace**

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nodonedeal

pre 16 godina

Albanians in Kosovo-Metohija have done nothing to help themselves prosper in the last 100 years+ to help themselves - besides complain and demand independence - as if this is some sort of panacea. Do they not see that they are still nothing, without the US/EU backing? Why not improve yourselves on your own? Serbs would not have minded if you wanted to work and improve - as oppossed to complaining and sticking your hands out. I for one, have zero sympathy for K_Albanians. You have to earn and work for your respect. There is no free lunch in the West. You'll see.

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GSP

pre 16 godina

Hamid writes - ...They have some things at stake there ,but not a lot.Kosova is gone...

Kosova is gone, correct! It's KOSOVO! Thank you for your clarification

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Boban

pre 16 godina

"about 100 years"
In those 100 years albanians have killed and driven out Serbs from Kosovo. Lets not forget he mass illegal migration of albanians to Kosovo from Albania during WW2.

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JHam

pre 16 godina

Please December 10th hurry and get here so we can see who is going to declare independence or get told to be quite and negoitate more. Supervised independence is not Independence. I think everyone is assuming that after Dec 10th there will be big parties and all. Well i have marked my calendar and will wait to see what happens. I am not going to boast and line dance like some posters. I will leave that to others to do.

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Jovan

pre 16 godina

Give the albanians the chanse to govern(not rule)over other minorities in New State of Kosovo!!!
(Che Guevara, 31. August 2007 00:03)

to the south-american guerillero: I am afraid you will have to continue dreaming of that "chanse"!

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Gezim

pre 16 godina

wow wow wow To: all posters in B92.
You people you seems to have so much time to discus the politics, and have forgoten about the daily problems, and the situation that we are.
To Serb posters, i see that some of the posters anr very nacionalist, please be more polite, we are not here to kill eachother.
And to my fellow Albanians, whey dont you tray to do some changes in our citys, with our municipality, you see how many problems we have, why not critisazing our gouverment that they are not doing nothing, stop with ths status, its not up to us or up to the serbs, someone third is going to impose a solution and give an end to this.
I'm sick of it everything, day by day the situation gets worst.
Tell me please when the Independence comes, what than , what is going to be with people when they see that still the economy didnt change a bit, but the situation gets worst.
Why can some one please tell me why there is so much concentration only to the Independence, why not at the Economy, how can we improve the social life in Kosovo, the status will not resolve all the problems, you know that we have only 700 milions in our budget.
Please wake up, and open your eys.
We just want to live and have a job, and mind our own bussines.

Peace to All
Gezim

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james may

pre 16 godina

Dear B92

The commentary attached to this article regarding Kosovo Albanians awareness of birth control is prejudicial and racist in intent. Open public debate is very valuable but please be aware that hosting this content without any editorial comment (a statement addressing such comments, rather than cutting them) undermines B92's credibility of it's reporting on Kosovo, which is currently the most balanced and informative available in the English language.

James May
YIHR

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Walter

pre 16 godina

Mr. May the issue of birth rate was raised by others as a factor in Kosovo demographics. How it is racist to state that high birth rate is associated with poverty and illiteracy? How it is racist to state that high birth rate is associated with emigration and the need for aid to overpopulated regions by developing countries? How is it racist to suggest that ethnic wars and crime are also associated with poverty, and unemployment? Economic crisis in part created intentionally by the IMF and the World Bank that contributed to destabilization of Yugoslavia. When nations are economically strong with well developed education systems that allow for introspection, discussion and open debate the issues of demographics seldom leads to conflict. These comments which I feel are directed at all societies which are in transition in their development from clannism and paternalism to a more democratic social organization is not intent at racism since this comment applies to many parts of the Balkans. I have met many women from the Balkans who are ten times as smart as their husbands but the husband still lord over them. These women double shift while the husband sips coffee or jaws with his buddies while the woman serves washes dishes and does all other household chores. A 5 year old male child in Herzegovina I remember visiting cousins in a distant village and my female cousins had to wash my feet which I was capable of washing. Recently there has been a reemergence of kannun throughout Albania and Kosovo. Saying that this return to clan mentality is also associated with high birth rate, low education standards, agrarian societies and other economic ills is in no way racist. Does it make the Albanian demographic example any less or any more true or any more acceptable to you Mr. May if I had made my statement more general. Albanian, Croats and Serb men in the past and some more and some less today equated number of children with machismo and add to this ignorance, and religion and the need for more fingers to weed the fields this could apply to three quarters of the developing world. Some societies have a longer road to travel than others all you need to do is look at percentage of people in any society working in agriculture to see how far that society needs to travel. In America about 3% of the population works in Agriculture while in Serbia it is 30% and in Albania 46%.

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KS

pre 16 godina

Jovan how do you expect me to take you seriously when you give me a source that is absolutely a joke?

That website is run by the Belgrade lobbyists, I know this because I read an article about this website in GOOGLE NEWS.

Why does it offend you that Albanians whether from Kosova, Albania, Macedonia, Presheva valley, Montenegro, and other places are PROUD PEOPLE.

Albanians are proud people, the end. Albanians are direct descendants of Illyrians, their greatest hero is Gjergj Kastrioti who saved Europe during Renaissance era from the Ottomans until he died.

Albanians have contributed to humanitarian causes (Saint Mother Tereza), etc etc.

ALbanians are loving and kind people, no matter how much serbianna tries to portray ALbanians as war-mongers or mafia driven people the humorous it gets.

I'm a Kosovar. I'm proud.

BTw did you ever think that I may be a Kosovar-Bosnian from Prizren? OR do you recognize any pro-independence poster as "albanians"?

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