British ambassador: Agreement, or Ahtisaari plan

the british ambassador should be told, that the average reader is not as stupid as he expects him to be! (
but, Ahtissari is clearly not on the table, since his plan failed in the UNSC, and before those albanian kids start crying all over again: it´s certainly not only Russia against it, so please do not bore the readers here with "analyses" like "Serbia and Russia are alone" etc., it would only be stupid, as already said.
unfortunately the UNSC-members do not talk about it officially, but if someone´s got a brain then he or she should be able to see what took place in the UNSC.

I think wordsworth is the one who is ridiculous, making those ridiculous comments. Was he not told that martis amazing plan is located in the garbage can? And we all know who's garbage can.

No nikshala we are not trying to justify anything since the crimes were committed against Serbs by the children of, as you write “Ustasi, SS Skanderbeg, blah blah blah.” We remind you of those crimes in whose name you build statues and honor them as your national heroes. We bring them up because you defend them as you defend those who killed people in cafés sipping coffee and police officers working on the roads in order to feed their family. You defend those who killed Albanians who opposed your point of view just like the Ustasi and the SS did in WWII. No Israel will not do that but the Germans did apologize for their actions and it is a crime in Germany to honor the memory of the SS and the Nazis unlike in Albania and Croatia where you name streets after the vilest criminals of the 20th Century. You see nikshala Serbs are not ashamed to tell the world that in every war they were on the side of justice unlike your side that always played a quisling card and now you want to forget those crimes with “blah blah blah” while you honor their perpetrators. .

Not so smart to put the pressure on Serbia to find an agreement with the provincial Kosovo govt when the carrot of independence is being dangled if this doesn't happen. Hardly an incentive for talks is it?

All this man is really saying is either offer independence or it will be imposed. Obviously he isn't up to speed on recent developments.

Such a simplistic lazy approach to this issue by someone who clearly does not care beyond speaking his lines. B92, if you interview him again, ask which side Serbia fought with in WWII - I bet he doesn't even know. These people are Bliar throwbacks.

Hahaha
OK go ahead. Implement a plan that EU has rejected from the get go without UNSC approval. British ambassadors have always been entertaining when they speak of things they know will never happen.

The British ambassador has as much power to grant Kosovo independence as he has to ask the mujahadeen in Afghanistan and Iraq not to kill anymore British soldiers.Has Russia extradited the gentleman that the British keep on insisting must face justice in a British court of law or is the Queen coming to her senses and realizing that Putin is a more powerful monarch?LOL.British dictates are pointless and they must stop issuing them in order to prevent further embarrassment to the Queen.

We have stated before on this blog how RIDICULOUS the statements of some members of DSS party were.
So, guys now you have it.
If no agreement is reached, Martti Ahtisari's plan will trigger automatically.
So much for your EMPTY talk, Mr. Prime minister and your worthless backwards Party DSS.
Where is Princip=Kate?

Dragan, trying to educate mr. Noel Malcolm?!?!

What a FIASCO!!!
This is so sad, so sad!

"Na brdovitom Balkanu".

**PEACE**

Nato and security?? Its failed at that simple task for the past 8+ years, give me a break. In the footage of albanians destroying a Serbian church, you clearly see Nato troops drive by and stop, then just go ahead and leave. They are worthless, and it makes me sick that the topic of independence is still being talked about. Independence for Kosovo is dead, not going to happen as long as there is 1 Serb alive on this earth!!! CCCC

Thers's little incentive in Pristina comming up with any ideas or a compromise if the default option they're being offered is the Athissari plan. That's ridiculous !

The alternatives sould be compromise or nothing. Then again perhaps supervised independence (aka Athissari plan)is a euphemism for keeping the status quo.

Come on Belgrade & Pristina get your act together and stop allow your future to be determined others.

What has made Kosova a unique case in international relations is the overlap of the West’s principled foreign policy with relative easiness of its application.
I guess it won’t take too much effort in establishing a new functional and multiethnic state. As soon as the status is determined the resolve should be at the real issues at hand, democratisation standards and prosperity.
What side did one fight in the first or second WW has no relevance on the matter whatsoever.

Ahmet, calm down....i said "Independence" for Kosovo is dead. What was wrong with that? Can you say that it isnt??? CCCC

Britain, please reward this man with a promotion, to the post in Tirana.

I'm sure he'd prefer it to Belgrade.

Kate

What does it matter which side Serbia fought in WW2? We are in the 21st century.

Every country in the world was in war in WW2 and every country had victims - but the only ones still going on about it are serbs (Ustasi, SS Skanderbeg, blah blah blah..) - they keep trying to justify their crimes on the back of what happended in WW2.

Based on the comments of some people from serb camp - Israel should probably throw some nuclear bombs at Germany.

And Kate you still haven't answered my question about you being in Kosovo?

as usual, he doesn´t understand.

hopefully he doesn´t want to, and not that he can´t understand.

the plan is finished, just like indiependence.

both are off the table, you like it or not, is not relevant.

there´s just a taiwanization left. acknowledged "indiependence" from uk, usa, albania and maybe zimbabwe, the real axis of evil (sorry to zimbabwe).

if at all, we shouldn´t forget that not even usa have acknowledged taiwan.

but to the contrary of taiwan (which of course will also end up in china), the taiwanization of kosmet is limited to the day when serbia gets into eu.

just 5 or 6 years away self-proclaimed states or self-proclaimed prime-ministers in south serbia.

start telling albanians the truth (like ischinger or ahtisaari) and stop daydreaming and telling to the serbs about a world you would love to live in, but a world that never will come true.

Walter

I cannot speak for Croatia since I am not very familiar with their celebrations, but I can assure no one in Kosovo celebrates anybody who fought on the side of germans.

You are right Germans did apologize - Why is Serbia not apologising for what it did to albanian and not it WW2, but only 8 years ago???


And you think serbs did not commit crimes in Kosovo in WW2? By great grandad and his brother together with 20 men of his village were killed by the serbs in front of my 13 year old grandad.

But thats irrelevant - it happened over 50 years ago - move on!

One more ultimatum like Rambouillet . What incentive is there when broth sides are told dig in your heels say no until the no for one side becomes a yes and if the Serbs don’t say uncle and say yes we will make it a yes. This ambassador is not principled like the former Canadian ambassador Joe Bissett who resigned rather than be a party to the new “Drang nach Osten” this time by NATO.

To; b92,
You refuse to post my comenst and there was no threats or any offensive words included whatsoever in my coments and you post coments coming from this guy named Obiliq, as follows:"Kosovo is dead, not going to happen as long as there is 1 Serb alive on this earth!!! CCCC". For me this is the most inlamatory statemant, yet you posted.
I am not even going to talk about this uneducated person named KRESO, he can not tell between an american and Brit Diplomat, let alone the rest of serb camp that use deragotory language and so on. As far as Kate , she tries to be diplomatic without any diplomacy. Good luck guys , I will have the last laugh.
b92 , again you dont have to print my coments becasue I becam thorn in your eye as well.

Nick, don't even bother waiting for answer. I have asked questions such as: can any of serb camp tell m ehow they are going to rule Kosova, if let say Kosova will be left with serbia and no serb camp had the guts to tell me HOW.
Getting back to the article, WAY TO GO MR. AMBASSASOR.

Mr Isufi,

the British Ambassador might as well be the American one. Both are singing from the same songsheet. If I were you I wouldnt be so confident about them delivering your holy grail of independence. As you can see their record of implementing democracy and giving freedom to the people of Afghanistan and Iraq has been quite exemplary.

Luciano,
Whose forces are in Kosovo?
US, British, France, Germany, Italy. Are there any Russian? NO!
Is population supporting these forces?
YES!
Is there any fight going on against forces?
NO.

Then I guess British have a lot to say in this case just like US, France, Italy, Germany.

The mujahadeen do not care what forces are in Kosovo.They will gladly kill as many Americans as they can anywhere on the planet.There is no need for Russian soldiers in Kosovo.The Greek Special Forces should be stationed at Serb religious sites and the buffer zone separating the north from the south.All Serbs living south of the Ibar must take this oppurtunity to migrate to the north because de facto separation is at hand now that de jure independence is obviously not going to happen.The EU works great as an economic/free trade zone but it cannot unanimously agree on any political decision of this nature and Russia is infinitely more important to the EU than 6 million Albanians.This is the reality in 2007 and not the people who are still living with a 1999 mindset.Every important European leader has said that there must be a UNSC Resolution to the Kosovo question and pretending you do not hear these statements is not going to change this fact.Shalom

this American should mind his own business and worry about Iraq ,afghanistan and now iran. People are tired of americans and their lies.

Dear Ahmet-

None of our posters are "thorns in our side"; on the contrary, their contribution is encouraged and welcome.

To address your complaint, our poster Obilic wrote, "independence for Kosovo is dead", rather than, "Kosovo is dead", as you say.

Understandably, even that may be seen as inflammatory by some, but it nevertheless remains within what we see as our readers' right to an opinion, just as that expressed by those of our visitors who claim the opposite.

However, when that opinion includes personal insults, calls to violence, unsubstantiated claims against whole nations, no amount of protest will get such messages posted, because they are quite simply contrary to the very core of the values we seek to promote.

We ask you all to find ways, which must be many, to get your message across without looking to insult or humiliate others.

There are many of our frequent posters on both sides of the divide that prove this to be possible and that we believe should be looked up to.

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

B92

Nikshala - I was talking about his general knowledge of history, and as he is in Serbia he should know something but probably knows little. That was my point.

As for having been in Kosovo, yes I have, but it was pre 1999.

Nikshala wrote:
"By great grandad and his brother together with 20 men of his village were killed by the serbs in front of my 13 year old grandad."

Nikshala,

can you answer us the reason why some of your families members fought against Serbs in WWII? I mean, they fought the NAZI-occupiers, did your family-members side with them?

or do you wanna make us believe that they were only killed because they were Albanians? look into some non-albanian history book! it could help you understanding who was on which side...

Ahmed,

We truly feel for you when you say that we are being derogatory when we say simple truths to you like kosovo will never be seperate from serbia. B92 is right in reminding you that only a very small percentage of serbian posts actually make to B92. I fully admitt that many of my posts were censured because they were derogatory. The reason they were so is not because I hate any nationality of people, but it is the natural expression that I have towards anyone that wishes to steal my land which my forefathers died for.

But let me tell you how your posts have been not only derogatory, but TREASONOUS: any Serbian citizen that expresses anti-state rhetoric or calls for independence is being TREASONOUS. Not having your way on a SERBIAN website is much better than having to deal with the full force of the law which many people suffer who are deemed traitors. Just ask John Walker Lindh who fought for the taliban (I hope you have no association with the KLA).

It still amazes me that you have been allowed as much leeway here on B92 ( A SERBIAN WEBSITE).

Also, Ahmed, if Serbia is so irrelevant and powerless. Why do you spend so much time trying to convince us EVERY DAY with your many posts. There are a few others such as Lazer, Nikshali. I think deep down, you are grateful that Serbia has subsidized Kosovo for SO MANY years by giving you schools, your own language, utilities, security etc etc. Sadly, the extreme elements within Kosovo society wanted more than this at the EXPENSE of serbs and the sad era of the Milosevic era ensued. How did those circumstances come about Ahmed if many minorities are enjoying full rights within Serbia and enjoyed them under jugoslavija?

I spend hours on B92 reading and learning but heck I am a Serb. I think you naturally feel that your rightful place is within Serbia or else you would not spend so much time here! You are on the right track. Hang in there!

Let us love and respect the King and be his loyal subjects.

"British Ambassador to Serbia Stephen Wordsworth told B92 Tuesday that if the two sides are unable to reach an agreement, then UN Special Envoy to Kosovo Martti Ahtisaari’s plan of supervised independence will be applied."
(KS, 29. August 2007 18:44)

Is he speaking for England? Or US? In any case they have been reduced to having their statements/wishes read by ambassadors. They are fully aware that this is going no where. So for now Serbs are satisfied because they know NATO will never unite to fight again for albans and none of the countries in support of unilateral independence will ever fight for it. Thats reality.

CCCC

Im assuming KLA is now going to ask NATO to bomb itself (Greece) for them.

http://www.serbianna.com/news/2007/02216.shtml

Nikshala how convenient that you don’t know anything about Croatia while at the same time you use the Ustase as an example of blah, blah blah. The whole Western World knows about it since it is taught in every school in the West and I think you learned it to but saw it as blah, blah. Blah. You should be ashamed of this since you see the death of 700, 000 Serbian women and children, 60, 000 Jewish people and uncounted number of Roma as blah, blah, blah. I have nothing else to say here since your blah, blah, blah is an indication how you value human life.

I would like to apollogize to the serb camp (kate, princip, raso, rade, obilic, ratko, jovan, etc).

I am sorry. All of you were completely right when you said that Ahtisari was a joke and his plan is in a garbage pin.

"British Ambassador to Serbia Stephen Wordsworth told B92 Tuesday that if the two sides are unable to reach an agreement, then UN Special Envoy to Kosovo Martti Ahtisaari’s plan of supervised independence will be applied."

The talk about history is not helpful especially since no one proclaims to be an authority on the matter. Albanians are not claiming that their version of history is the right one. Equally Serbian version cannot be sacrosanct, but that beside the point.
It is a mater of fact that the historical argument are brought up primarily by the Serbian side. It is amazing how far the collective memory stretches.
Saving Europe from Islam and having fought on the winning side in world wars are poor arguments for our contemporary problem.

ask which side Serbia fought with in WWII.
(kate, 29. August 2007 15:54)

With both sides like all the other Balkan countries.

To Amb.Wordsworth: If the two sides are unable to reach an agreement, then the Serbian plan on a broad-based autonomy for Kosovo and Metohija will be applied, but not the Ahtisaari's plan, rejected by the world community and the UN SC, in particular.

Dear Mr.Wordsworth - for too long is your country only repeating the slogans of US administration. We even don't need to hear your opinion - because we know what American administration says. Mr.William Montgomery himself noted in article - saying that Mr.Bush is probably the worst president in US history - so he will remain "true" to his reputation - worst president will be for the worst solution for Kosovo, As you already did for so many years under Mr.Blair - you need only to nod your heads - as Mr.Bush has already done thinking for politicians in UK.

It´s slap in the face with those true arguments, hot potates...
Where are lazars, houswives and Nikolic...

"So, in December we’ll see if a compromise is possible, and if no progress has been made, clearly we’ll be left with what’s already on the table – that is, the Ahtisaari plan," he went on to say."

Wishful thinking by Wordsworth. Moscow already rejected Ahtisaari.

More accurate to say that if talks fail, both sides will be left with nothing. Then if Pristina unilaterally declare independence, de facto partition will kick in.

"Well, I followed your advise and took a look to some non-albanian books and what I found out was:
1- All over the balkan countries and nations there were collaborationists such as Ustashi in Croatia, guys of Draza Mihajlovic in Serbia, Skanderbegs in Albania, the general Zervas in Greece etc.
2 - All these nations (except serbs) produced also strong anti-nazi movements. Tito in Croatia, Enver Hoxha in Albania and EAM, ELAS in Greece (so the war of the so called anti-nazi serbs is just an attempt to steal the heroic stand of the croats and the other non serbs of the former Yugoslavia for freedom of a country which serbs already destroyed.
3 - Serbs used WWII to follow their nationalist agenda, transforming it into a civil war, hunting croats and albanians (look what the gangs of your Draza have done to Kosovo, look how many jews were left on the germans hand unprotected, and look how Albania is nowadays the most supported country in the Balkans by Israel because of the way albanians acted toward hebrews during the war).
4 - And at the end, I tried to find who was in which side that time and now and I found out that serb have been all the time not on the freedom and high principles side, but on the panslavic, prorusian side. If russians would be nazi in the time, the serbs would have been all followers of their cousins. But given the fact that after the Hitler-Stalin pact to divide Poland, Germany attacked their partners, serbs decided to sypmathize their russian cousins. Nowadays serbs are again cheating with asian russians, against the interests of americans, british and all western civilization.

Mikel, 30. August 2007 16:36) "

Hold on a sec, I feel I have to come in here because as a student of Balkan history there are a few misconceptions here.

1) True, there was collaberationists all over the Balkans. You omitted General Nedic, one of the most repulsive characters in Serbian history. Draza Mihailjovic did not collaborate with the Germans. He rescued hundreds of Allied airmen shot down over YU. He later clashed with Tito over the tactics that the Partizans were conducting and his overall vision of the future YU.

2) Serbs and Montenegrins made up the bulk of the anti-fascist resistance be it in the Cetniks or Partizans. That figure was compounded in the future composition of the officer corps of the JNA whose corps that comprised some 70% of Serbs & Montenegrins. True Tito, Ribar & Kardelj were non Serb but you also fail to mention Serb officers in the Partizans who distinguished themselves - Djilas, Rankovic, Pijade, Tempo-Vukmanovic et al. You are rigth that the Partizans were multiethnic in composition but the most prominent ethnic groups in it were Serbs, Montenegrins Dalmatian Croats, Slovene & Macedonian communists. There were very few Bosniaks or Albanian members.

3. The 3rd statement you make defies all logic. You fail to mention 2 factors in outset the civil war. Tudjman's overtly racist and anti-semitic comments plus the rehabilitation of the Ustashe in the early 90's gave Serbs, communists and Jews legitimate reasons to fear the new revanchist Croatian state as Tudjman made explicitly clear that his new state made no allowances for the rights of the minority groups that I mentioned. If I was a Serb, Jew or communist living in Croatia circa 1991 I'd be screaming for the JNA to protect me.

Secondly the JNA officer corps was made up of quite a few non Serbs who fought against their own kin in order to maintain YU. Kadijevic (Croat), Brovat (Slovene)were 2 of the top men in the JNA. While researching for my thesis I encountered non-Serbs living in Belgrade who fought in JNA in Slovenia, Croatia and BiH. True there was a strong Velika Srbija agenda conducted by the nationalists but also there was a significant element of those in middle and upper ranks of the JNA who believed that what they were doing was preserving the SFRJ and Tito's Brotherhood & Unity. The reason the JNA went to war was primarilly to preserve SFRJ and that it saw the Slovene and Croation secessionists as fascists and western paid agents who were intent on undermining the socialist state.

4. This is completely off the wall in suggesting that the Serbs would have fought with the Nazis. You are ignoring the blindingly obvious. The reason Stalin signed the Non-Agression Pact with Nazi Germany was a kind of insurance policy in that he knew Hitler was inevitably that he was going to move against the USSR but was trying to delay for as ong as possible as the Red Army was not in a ready state. Hitler made no secret of his hatred for the Serbs for he saw tham as an obstacle in his policy of Lebensraum and that later manifested itself in the actions of the Ustashe and its allies in the attempted liquidation of Serbs, Jews, Roma and communists. Your statements are full of inaccuracies and are laughable at best.

Mike truth triumphed over racist ideology. You as a revisionist and I am honoring your ignorance of history by debating with you since you are not really arguing history but pushing forth a political agenda. You are like a poorly read and poorly informed creationist science student debating science in order to promote your view of theology. We have seen several times earlier on this forum the deniers have a strong urge to be treated as the other side. Debating with you gives your ignorance of history legitimacy. Revisionists like Mike despise the very tools of an honest debate - truth and common sense are not their tools of trade. Trying to debate with Mike whose knowledge of history is like nailing some marmalade to the wall. In plain English, Mike we exchange point of view here and if you lack knowledge don’t advertise it as you tell us that you have just read some non Albanian sources ‘wow’ and that makes you an expert. Would you like to provide those sources and no matter how hard you try your version of history will never be treated like the other side. I can substantiate the truth that I write and expose the lies that you write but to do that the liar gains ground by any shift towards their argument due to my lack of documentation not due to the truth of what I am saying. This is your goal Mike intentional or by lack of knowledge. You have no interest in the truth and you are on this blog to promote your agenda which is rooted in racist ideology.

Niall O'Doherty I am glad that they teach the same history in Ireland as we do in Western Canada. As I said in my post above your comments give legitimacy to Nick’s ratings. My understandings are that many Muslims in Bosnia did join the JNA and the Partisans as did the Dalmatians. Croats started joining in 1943 as they saw the writing on the wall. As for The Russo-German, Molotov-Ribbentrop or the Moscow Pact or whatever you want to call it you are absolutely correct. You omit however, USSR’s foreign minister Litvinov’s attempted to get Britain and France into an anti Nazi coalition which the later two ignored. Stalin saw this as an attempt by the British and the French to turn Hitler against USSR. A famous USSR cartoon 1937 shows a British bobby and a French gendarme (Chamberlain and Deladier) holding a road sign with and arrow pointing directing Hitler’s car towards Moscow.

First, Walter, sorry man, perhaps you mix me with some other person. I don't know any Mike.

O'Doherty, what I basically did was an answer to the guy spreading the idea that the serbs were the sheeps and the others the wolfs during the WWII. I said that 1 - everybody has his skeletons inside the closet. I said that 2 - croats, albanians, greeks and almost everybody in the Balkans has the name and the symbols of their antifascist war heroes. Serbs instead have only the unverified justification that there "were many serbs and montenegrins in the partisans formations".
I said 3 - that it is obvious that serbs have not such a big merit on the WWII given most of jewish population of former Yugoslavia was left to the german hands.
And at the end I said 4 - that more than any antifascist feeling, serbs used to have and still have a strong prorussian spirit. That's all. Some people can find it realistic, some others not. It depends from your point of view.

To B92 - thank you for your post. It was extremely tactful & well put. I know I speak for a number of us who appreciate it!

Kate wrote: "Such a simplistic lazy approach to this issue by someone who clearly does not care beyond speaking his lines."

Kate stop over-complicating the issue and try to think once.
For us Albanians this issue is simple. We have two choices: freedom or slavery. As you might have guessed we are going for freedom.
Serbia also has two choices: have a colonial type territory which it can exploit, or not have it. As you might have guessed they're going for the first choice. It is a very simple issue you see. The choices are simple too. No need to over-complicate it.

To all serb camp you sound pretty ridiculous when you post things such as

-NATO conspiracy(s) or WEST consp.

-Links to Serianna

-Facts about WW2 (selective reading)

-Facts about Kosova

First of all we know that almost anything you learn is from some Serbian media. Second of all you always relate any text to some conspiracy, stop it already it's annoying. Thirdly why do you always blame other people (UCK, KLA, NATO, America, WEST) you never once take responsibility for your own actions.

If you mention 3,000 killed since 1999 (source?) than please also post the fact that over 2,000 Kosovar-Albanians are located in serbia proper.

Both sides need to be more mature, maturity means complaining less to B92.

can you answer us the reason why some of your families members fought against Serbs in WWII? I mean, they fought the NAZI-occupiers, did your family-members side with them?

or do you wanna make us believe that they were only killed because they were Albanians? look into some non-albanian history book! it could help you understanding who was on which side...



Well, I followed your advise and took a look to some non-albanian books and what I found out was:
1- All over the balkan countries and nations there were collaborationists such as Ustashi in Croatia, guys of Draza Mihajlovic in Serbia, Skanderbegs in Albania, the general Zervas in Greece etc.
2 - All these nations (except serbs) produced also strong anti-nazi movements. Tito in Croatia, Enver Hoxha in Albania and EAM, ELAS in Greece (so the war of the so called anti-nazi serbs is just an attempt to steal the heroic stand of the croats and the other non serbs of the former Yugoslavia for freedom of a country which serbs already destroyed.
3 - Serbs used WWII to follow their nationalist agenda, transforming it into a civil war, hunting croats and albanians (look what the gangs of your Draza have done to Kosovo, look how many jews were left on the germans hand unprotected, and look how Albania is nowadays the most supported country in the Balkans by Israel because of the way albanians acted toward hebrews during the war).
4 - And at the end, I tried to find who was in which side that time and now and I found out that serb have been all the time not on the freedom and high principles side, but on the panslavic, prorusian side. If russians would be nazi in the time, the serbs would have been all followers of their cousins. But given the fact that after the Hitler-Stalin pact to divide Poland, Germany attacked their partners, serbs decided to sypmathize their russian cousins. Nowadays serbs are again cheating with asian russians, against the interests of americans, british and all western civilization. Take care.

PS. I am not the only one complaining but I am sure the ethnic serbian editors of B92 will cut huge unconfortable slices of my post, but it is ok. It will help to show the other nonserbs who visit this site how albanians and others have been since 1913 subject of discrimination and repression without being able to witness it only because of such a continuous, severe "editing" of facts.

This guy should call Chinese president now and say:

If no agreement with Tibet: indepence!

I mean, this is STUPID. Why should the Kosovars negotiate then?

It is like me negotiating with you over my debt. But if we don't agree I don't have to pay anything. Why should I be in for a compromise then?

Kate

What does it matter which side Serbia fought in WW2? We are in the 21st century.

Every country in the world was in war in WW2 and every country had victims - but the only ones still going on about it are serbs (Ustasi, SS Skanderbeg, blah blah blah..) - they keep trying to justify their crimes on the back of what happended in WW2.

Based on the comments of some people from serb camp - Israel should probably throw some nuclear bombs at Germany.

And Kate you still haven't answered my question about you being in Kosovo?

We have stated before on this blog how RIDICULOUS the statements of some members of DSS party were.
So, guys now you have it.
If no agreement is reached, Martti Ahtisari's plan will trigger automatically.
So much for your EMPTY talk, Mr. Prime minister and your worthless backwards Party DSS.
Where is Princip=Kate?

Dragan, trying to educate mr. Noel Malcolm?!?!

What a FIASCO!!!
This is so sad, so sad!

"Na brdovitom Balkanu".

**PEACE**

What has made Kosova a unique case in international relations is the overlap of the West’s principled foreign policy with relative easiness of its application.
I guess it won’t take too much effort in establishing a new functional and multiethnic state. As soon as the status is determined the resolve should be at the real issues at hand, democratisation standards and prosperity.
What side did one fight in the first or second WW has no relevance on the matter whatsoever.

To; b92,
You refuse to post my comenst and there was no threats or any offensive words included whatsoever in my coments and you post coments coming from this guy named Obiliq, as follows:"Kosovo is dead, not going to happen as long as there is 1 Serb alive on this earth!!! CCCC". For me this is the most inlamatory statemant, yet you posted.
I am not even going to talk about this uneducated person named KRESO, he can not tell between an american and Brit Diplomat, let alone the rest of serb camp that use deragotory language and so on. As far as Kate , she tries to be diplomatic without any diplomacy. Good luck guys , I will have the last laugh.
b92 , again you dont have to print my coments becasue I becam thorn in your eye as well.

Nick, don't even bother waiting for answer. I have asked questions such as: can any of serb camp tell m ehow they are going to rule Kosova, if let say Kosova will be left with serbia and no serb camp had the guts to tell me HOW.
Getting back to the article, WAY TO GO MR. AMBASSASOR.

I would like to apollogize to the serb camp (kate, princip, raso, rade, obilic, ratko, jovan, etc).

I am sorry. All of you were completely right when you said that Ahtisari was a joke and his plan is in a garbage pin.

"British Ambassador to Serbia Stephen Wordsworth told B92 Tuesday that if the two sides are unable to reach an agreement, then UN Special Envoy to Kosovo Martti Ahtisaari’s plan of supervised independence will be applied."

Nato and security?? Its failed at that simple task for the past 8+ years, give me a break. In the footage of albanians destroying a Serbian church, you clearly see Nato troops drive by and stop, then just go ahead and leave. They are worthless, and it makes me sick that the topic of independence is still being talked about. Independence for Kosovo is dead, not going to happen as long as there is 1 Serb alive on this earth!!! CCCC

It´s slap in the face with those true arguments, hot potates...
Where are lazars, houswives and Nikolic...

Luciano,
Whose forces are in Kosovo?
US, British, France, Germany, Italy. Are there any Russian? NO!
Is population supporting these forces?
YES!
Is there any fight going on against forces?
NO.

Then I guess British have a lot to say in this case just like US, France, Italy, Germany.

Not so smart to put the pressure on Serbia to find an agreement with the provincial Kosovo govt when the carrot of independence is being dangled if this doesn't happen. Hardly an incentive for talks is it?

All this man is really saying is either offer independence or it will be imposed. Obviously he isn't up to speed on recent developments.

Such a simplistic lazy approach to this issue by someone who clearly does not care beyond speaking his lines. B92, if you interview him again, ask which side Serbia fought with in WWII - I bet he doesn't even know. These people are Bliar throwbacks.

I think wordsworth is the one who is ridiculous, making those ridiculous comments. Was he not told that martis amazing plan is located in the garbage can? And we all know who's garbage can.

the british ambassador should be told, that the average reader is not as stupid as he expects him to be! (
but, Ahtissari is clearly not on the table, since his plan failed in the UNSC, and before those albanian kids start crying all over again: it´s certainly not only Russia against it, so please do not bore the readers here with "analyses" like "Serbia and Russia are alone" etc., it would only be stupid, as already said.
unfortunately the UNSC-members do not talk about it officially, but if someone´s got a brain then he or she should be able to see what took place in the UNSC.

Thers's little incentive in Pristina comming up with any ideas or a compromise if the default option they're being offered is the Athissari plan. That's ridiculous !

The alternatives sould be compromise or nothing. Then again perhaps supervised independence (aka Athissari plan)is a euphemism for keeping the status quo.

Come on Belgrade & Pristina get your act together and stop allow your future to be determined others.

this American should mind his own business and worry about Iraq ,afghanistan and now iran. People are tired of americans and their lies.

Britain, please reward this man with a promotion, to the post in Tirana.

I'm sure he'd prefer it to Belgrade.

Hahaha
OK go ahead. Implement a plan that EU has rejected from the get go without UNSC approval. British ambassadors have always been entertaining when they speak of things they know will never happen.

as usual, he doesn´t understand.

hopefully he doesn´t want to, and not that he can´t understand.

the plan is finished, just like indiependence.

both are off the table, you like it or not, is not relevant.

there´s just a taiwanization left. acknowledged "indiependence" from uk, usa, albania and maybe zimbabwe, the real axis of evil (sorry to zimbabwe).

if at all, we shouldn´t forget that not even usa have acknowledged taiwan.

but to the contrary of taiwan (which of course will also end up in china), the taiwanization of kosmet is limited to the day when serbia gets into eu.

just 5 or 6 years away self-proclaimed states or self-proclaimed prime-ministers in south serbia.

start telling albanians the truth (like ischinger or ahtisaari) and stop daydreaming and telling to the serbs about a world you would love to live in, but a world that never will come true.

One more ultimatum like Rambouillet . What incentive is there when broth sides are told dig in your heels say no until the no for one side becomes a yes and if the Serbs don’t say uncle and say yes we will make it a yes. This ambassador is not principled like the former Canadian ambassador Joe Bissett who resigned rather than be a party to the new “Drang nach Osten” this time by NATO.

Dear Ahmet-

None of our posters are "thorns in our side"; on the contrary, their contribution is encouraged and welcome.

To address your complaint, our poster Obilic wrote, "independence for Kosovo is dead", rather than, "Kosovo is dead", as you say.

Understandably, even that may be seen as inflammatory by some, but it nevertheless remains within what we see as our readers' right to an opinion, just as that expressed by those of our visitors who claim the opposite.

However, when that opinion includes personal insults, calls to violence, unsubstantiated claims against whole nations, no amount of protest will get such messages posted, because they are quite simply contrary to the very core of the values we seek to promote.

We ask you all to find ways, which must be many, to get your message across without looking to insult or humiliate others.

There are many of our frequent posters on both sides of the divide that prove this to be possible and that we believe should be looked up to.

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

B92

Ahmet, calm down....i said "Independence" for Kosovo is dead. What was wrong with that? Can you say that it isnt??? CCCC

No nikshala we are not trying to justify anything since the crimes were committed against Serbs by the children of, as you write “Ustasi, SS Skanderbeg, blah blah blah.” We remind you of those crimes in whose name you build statues and honor them as your national heroes. We bring them up because you defend them as you defend those who killed people in cafés sipping coffee and police officers working on the roads in order to feed their family. You defend those who killed Albanians who opposed your point of view just like the Ustasi and the SS did in WWII. No Israel will not do that but the Germans did apologize for their actions and it is a crime in Germany to honor the memory of the SS and the Nazis unlike in Albania and Croatia where you name streets after the vilest criminals of the 20th Century. You see nikshala Serbs are not ashamed to tell the world that in every war they were on the side of justice unlike your side that always played a quisling card and now you want to forget those crimes with “blah blah blah” while you honor their perpetrators. .

The British ambassador has as much power to grant Kosovo independence as he has to ask the mujahadeen in Afghanistan and Iraq not to kill anymore British soldiers.Has Russia extradited the gentleman that the British keep on insisting must face justice in a British court of law or is the Queen coming to her senses and realizing that Putin is a more powerful monarch?LOL.British dictates are pointless and they must stop issuing them in order to prevent further embarrassment to the Queen.

"British Ambassador to Serbia Stephen Wordsworth told B92 Tuesday that if the two sides are unable to reach an agreement, then UN Special Envoy to Kosovo Martti Ahtisaari’s plan of supervised independence will be applied."
(KS, 29. August 2007 18:44)

Is he speaking for England? Or US? In any case they have been reduced to having their statements/wishes read by ambassadors. They are fully aware that this is going no where. So for now Serbs are satisfied because they know NATO will never unite to fight again for albans and none of the countries in support of unilateral independence will ever fight for it. Thats reality.

CCCC

Walter

I cannot speak for Croatia since I am not very familiar with their celebrations, but I can assure no one in Kosovo celebrates anybody who fought on the side of germans.

You are right Germans did apologize - Why is Serbia not apologising for what it did to albanian and not it WW2, but only 8 years ago???


And you think serbs did not commit crimes in Kosovo in WW2? By great grandad and his brother together with 20 men of his village were killed by the serbs in front of my 13 year old grandad.

But thats irrelevant - it happened over 50 years ago - move on!

Nikshala wrote:
"By great grandad and his brother together with 20 men of his village were killed by the serbs in front of my 13 year old grandad."

Nikshala,

can you answer us the reason why some of your families members fought against Serbs in WWII? I mean, they fought the NAZI-occupiers, did your family-members side with them?

or do you wanna make us believe that they were only killed because they were Albanians? look into some non-albanian history book! it could help you understanding who was on which side...

The mujahadeen do not care what forces are in Kosovo.They will gladly kill as many Americans as they can anywhere on the planet.There is no need for Russian soldiers in Kosovo.The Greek Special Forces should be stationed at Serb religious sites and the buffer zone separating the north from the south.All Serbs living south of the Ibar must take this oppurtunity to migrate to the north because de facto separation is at hand now that de jure independence is obviously not going to happen.The EU works great as an economic/free trade zone but it cannot unanimously agree on any political decision of this nature and Russia is infinitely more important to the EU than 6 million Albanians.This is the reality in 2007 and not the people who are still living with a 1999 mindset.Every important European leader has said that there must be a UNSC Resolution to the Kosovo question and pretending you do not hear these statements is not going to change this fact.Shalom

The talk about history is not helpful especially since no one proclaims to be an authority on the matter. Albanians are not claiming that their version of history is the right one. Equally Serbian version cannot be sacrosanct, but that beside the point.
It is a mater of fact that the historical argument are brought up primarily by the Serbian side. It is amazing how far the collective memory stretches.
Saving Europe from Islam and having fought on the winning side in world wars are poor arguments for our contemporary problem.

ask which side Serbia fought with in WWII.
(kate, 29. August 2007 15:54)

With both sides like all the other Balkan countries.

Im assuming KLA is now going to ask NATO to bomb itself (Greece) for them.

http://www.serbianna.com/news/2007/02216.shtml

Kate wrote: "Such a simplistic lazy approach to this issue by someone who clearly does not care beyond speaking his lines."

Kate stop over-complicating the issue and try to think once.
For us Albanians this issue is simple. We have two choices: freedom or slavery. As you might have guessed we are going for freedom.
Serbia also has two choices: have a colonial type territory which it can exploit, or not have it. As you might have guessed they're going for the first choice. It is a very simple issue you see. The choices are simple too. No need to over-complicate it.

Ahmed,

We truly feel for you when you say that we are being derogatory when we say simple truths to you like kosovo will never be seperate from serbia. B92 is right in reminding you that only a very small percentage of serbian posts actually make to B92. I fully admitt that many of my posts were censured because they were derogatory. The reason they were so is not because I hate any nationality of people, but it is the natural expression that I have towards anyone that wishes to steal my land which my forefathers died for.

But let me tell you how your posts have been not only derogatory, but TREASONOUS: any Serbian citizen that expresses anti-state rhetoric or calls for independence is being TREASONOUS. Not having your way on a SERBIAN website is much better than having to deal with the full force of the law which many people suffer who are deemed traitors. Just ask John Walker Lindh who fought for the taliban (I hope you have no association with the KLA).

It still amazes me that you have been allowed as much leeway here on B92 ( A SERBIAN WEBSITE).

Also, Ahmed, if Serbia is so irrelevant and powerless. Why do you spend so much time trying to convince us EVERY DAY with your many posts. There are a few others such as Lazer, Nikshali. I think deep down, you are grateful that Serbia has subsidized Kosovo for SO MANY years by giving you schools, your own language, utilities, security etc etc. Sadly, the extreme elements within Kosovo society wanted more than this at the EXPENSE of serbs and the sad era of the Milosevic era ensued. How did those circumstances come about Ahmed if many minorities are enjoying full rights within Serbia and enjoyed them under jugoslavija?

I spend hours on B92 reading and learning but heck I am a Serb. I think you naturally feel that your rightful place is within Serbia or else you would not spend so much time here! You are on the right track. Hang in there!

Let us love and respect the King and be his loyal subjects.

can you answer us the reason why some of your families members fought against Serbs in WWII? I mean, they fought the NAZI-occupiers, did your family-members side with them?

or do you wanna make us believe that they were only killed because they were Albanians? look into some non-albanian history book! it could help you understanding who was on which side...



Well, I followed your advise and took a look to some non-albanian books and what I found out was:
1- All over the balkan countries and nations there were collaborationists such as Ustashi in Croatia, guys of Draza Mihajlovic in Serbia, Skanderbegs in Albania, the general Zervas in Greece etc.
2 - All these nations (except serbs) produced also strong anti-nazi movements. Tito in Croatia, Enver Hoxha in Albania and EAM, ELAS in Greece (so the war of the so called anti-nazi serbs is just an attempt to steal the heroic stand of the croats and the other non serbs of the former Yugoslavia for freedom of a country which serbs already destroyed.
3 - Serbs used WWII to follow their nationalist agenda, transforming it into a civil war, hunting croats and albanians (look what the gangs of your Draza have done to Kosovo, look how many jews were left on the germans hand unprotected, and look how Albania is nowadays the most supported country in the Balkans by Israel because of the way albanians acted toward hebrews during the war).
4 - And at the end, I tried to find who was in which side that time and now and I found out that serb have been all the time not on the freedom and high principles side, but on the panslavic, prorusian side. If russians would be nazi in the time, the serbs would have been all followers of their cousins. But given the fact that after the Hitler-Stalin pact to divide Poland, Germany attacked their partners, serbs decided to sypmathize their russian cousins. Nowadays serbs are again cheating with asian russians, against the interests of americans, british and all western civilization. Take care.

PS. I am not the only one complaining but I am sure the ethnic serbian editors of B92 will cut huge unconfortable slices of my post, but it is ok. It will help to show the other nonserbs who visit this site how albanians and others have been since 1913 subject of discrimination and repression without being able to witness it only because of such a continuous, severe "editing" of facts.

First, Walter, sorry man, perhaps you mix me with some other person. I don't know any Mike.

O'Doherty, what I basically did was an answer to the guy spreading the idea that the serbs were the sheeps and the others the wolfs during the WWII. I said that 1 - everybody has his skeletons inside the closet. I said that 2 - croats, albanians, greeks and almost everybody in the Balkans has the name and the symbols of their antifascist war heroes. Serbs instead have only the unverified justification that there "were many serbs and montenegrins in the partisans formations".
I said 3 - that it is obvious that serbs have not such a big merit on the WWII given most of jewish population of former Yugoslavia was left to the german hands.
And at the end I said 4 - that more than any antifascist feeling, serbs used to have and still have a strong prorussian spirit. That's all. Some people can find it realistic, some others not. It depends from your point of view.

Mr Isufi,

the British Ambassador might as well be the American one. Both are singing from the same songsheet. If I were you I wouldnt be so confident about them delivering your holy grail of independence. As you can see their record of implementing democracy and giving freedom to the people of Afghanistan and Iraq has been quite exemplary.

Nikshala - I was talking about his general knowledge of history, and as he is in Serbia he should know something but probably knows little. That was my point.

As for having been in Kosovo, yes I have, but it was pre 1999.

To all serb camp you sound pretty ridiculous when you post things such as

-NATO conspiracy(s) or WEST consp.

-Links to Serianna

-Facts about WW2 (selective reading)

-Facts about Kosova

First of all we know that almost anything you learn is from some Serbian media. Second of all you always relate any text to some conspiracy, stop it already it's annoying. Thirdly why do you always blame other people (UCK, KLA, NATO, America, WEST) you never once take responsibility for your own actions.

If you mention 3,000 killed since 1999 (source?) than please also post the fact that over 2,000 Kosovar-Albanians are located in serbia proper.

Both sides need to be more mature, maturity means complaining less to B92.

"So, in December we’ll see if a compromise is possible, and if no progress has been made, clearly we’ll be left with what’s already on the table – that is, the Ahtisaari plan," he went on to say."

Wishful thinking by Wordsworth. Moscow already rejected Ahtisaari.

More accurate to say that if talks fail, both sides will be left with nothing. Then if Pristina unilaterally declare independence, de facto partition will kick in.

Nikshala how convenient that you don’t know anything about Croatia while at the same time you use the Ustase as an example of blah, blah blah. The whole Western World knows about it since it is taught in every school in the West and I think you learned it to but saw it as blah, blah. Blah. You should be ashamed of this since you see the death of 700, 000 Serbian women and children, 60, 000 Jewish people and uncounted number of Roma as blah, blah, blah. I have nothing else to say here since your blah, blah, blah is an indication how you value human life.

To Amb.Wordsworth: If the two sides are unable to reach an agreement, then the Serbian plan on a broad-based autonomy for Kosovo and Metohija will be applied, but not the Ahtisaari's plan, rejected by the world community and the UN SC, in particular.

Dear Mr.Wordsworth - for too long is your country only repeating the slogans of US administration. We even don't need to hear your opinion - because we know what American administration says. Mr.William Montgomery himself noted in article - saying that Mr.Bush is probably the worst president in US history - so he will remain "true" to his reputation - worst president will be for the worst solution for Kosovo, As you already did for so many years under Mr.Blair - you need only to nod your heads - as Mr.Bush has already done thinking for politicians in UK.

"Well, I followed your advise and took a look to some non-albanian books and what I found out was:
1- All over the balkan countries and nations there were collaborationists such as Ustashi in Croatia, guys of Draza Mihajlovic in Serbia, Skanderbegs in Albania, the general Zervas in Greece etc.
2 - All these nations (except serbs) produced also strong anti-nazi movements. Tito in Croatia, Enver Hoxha in Albania and EAM, ELAS in Greece (so the war of the so called anti-nazi serbs is just an attempt to steal the heroic stand of the croats and the other non serbs of the former Yugoslavia for freedom of a country which serbs already destroyed.
3 - Serbs used WWII to follow their nationalist agenda, transforming it into a civil war, hunting croats and albanians (look what the gangs of your Draza have done to Kosovo, look how many jews were left on the germans hand unprotected, and look how Albania is nowadays the most supported country in the Balkans by Israel because of the way albanians acted toward hebrews during the war).
4 - And at the end, I tried to find who was in which side that time and now and I found out that serb have been all the time not on the freedom and high principles side, but on the panslavic, prorusian side. If russians would be nazi in the time, the serbs would have been all followers of their cousins. But given the fact that after the Hitler-Stalin pact to divide Poland, Germany attacked their partners, serbs decided to sypmathize their russian cousins. Nowadays serbs are again cheating with asian russians, against the interests of americans, british and all western civilization.

Mikel, 30. August 2007 16:36) "

Hold on a sec, I feel I have to come in here because as a student of Balkan history there are a few misconceptions here.

1) True, there was collaberationists all over the Balkans. You omitted General Nedic, one of the most repulsive characters in Serbian history. Draza Mihailjovic did not collaborate with the Germans. He rescued hundreds of Allied airmen shot down over YU. He later clashed with Tito over the tactics that the Partizans were conducting and his overall vision of the future YU.

2) Serbs and Montenegrins made up the bulk of the anti-fascist resistance be it in the Cetniks or Partizans. That figure was compounded in the future composition of the officer corps of the JNA whose corps that comprised some 70% of Serbs & Montenegrins. True Tito, Ribar & Kardelj were non Serb but you also fail to mention Serb officers in the Partizans who distinguished themselves - Djilas, Rankovic, Pijade, Tempo-Vukmanovic et al. You are rigth that the Partizans were multiethnic in composition but the most prominent ethnic groups in it were Serbs, Montenegrins Dalmatian Croats, Slovene & Macedonian communists. There were very few Bosniaks or Albanian members.

3. The 3rd statement you make defies all logic. You fail to mention 2 factors in outset the civil war. Tudjman's overtly racist and anti-semitic comments plus the rehabilitation of the Ustashe in the early 90's gave Serbs, communists and Jews legitimate reasons to fear the new revanchist Croatian state as Tudjman made explicitly clear that his new state made no allowances for the rights of the minority groups that I mentioned. If I was a Serb, Jew or communist living in Croatia circa 1991 I'd be screaming for the JNA to protect me.

Secondly the JNA officer corps was made up of quite a few non Serbs who fought against their own kin in order to maintain YU. Kadijevic (Croat), Brovat (Slovene)were 2 of the top men in the JNA. While researching for my thesis I encountered non-Serbs living in Belgrade who fought in JNA in Slovenia, Croatia and BiH. True there was a strong Velika Srbija agenda conducted by the nationalists but also there was a significant element of those in middle and upper ranks of the JNA who believed that what they were doing was preserving the SFRJ and Tito's Brotherhood & Unity. The reason the JNA went to war was primarilly to preserve SFRJ and that it saw the Slovene and Croation secessionists as fascists and western paid agents who were intent on undermining the socialist state.

4. This is completely off the wall in suggesting that the Serbs would have fought with the Nazis. You are ignoring the blindingly obvious. The reason Stalin signed the Non-Agression Pact with Nazi Germany was a kind of insurance policy in that he knew Hitler was inevitably that he was going to move against the USSR but was trying to delay for as ong as possible as the Red Army was not in a ready state. Hitler made no secret of his hatred for the Serbs for he saw tham as an obstacle in his policy of Lebensraum and that later manifested itself in the actions of the Ustashe and its allies in the attempted liquidation of Serbs, Jews, Roma and communists. Your statements are full of inaccuracies and are laughable at best.

Mike truth triumphed over racist ideology. You as a revisionist and I am honoring your ignorance of history by debating with you since you are not really arguing history but pushing forth a political agenda. You are like a poorly read and poorly informed creationist science student debating science in order to promote your view of theology. We have seen several times earlier on this forum the deniers have a strong urge to be treated as the other side. Debating with you gives your ignorance of history legitimacy. Revisionists like Mike despise the very tools of an honest debate - truth and common sense are not their tools of trade. Trying to debate with Mike whose knowledge of history is like nailing some marmalade to the wall. In plain English, Mike we exchange point of view here and if you lack knowledge don’t advertise it as you tell us that you have just read some non Albanian sources ‘wow’ and that makes you an expert. Would you like to provide those sources and no matter how hard you try your version of history will never be treated like the other side. I can substantiate the truth that I write and expose the lies that you write but to do that the liar gains ground by any shift towards their argument due to my lack of documentation not due to the truth of what I am saying. This is your goal Mike intentional or by lack of knowledge. You have no interest in the truth and you are on this blog to promote your agenda which is rooted in racist ideology.

Niall O'Doherty I am glad that they teach the same history in Ireland as we do in Western Canada. As I said in my post above your comments give legitimacy to Nick’s ratings. My understandings are that many Muslims in Bosnia did join the JNA and the Partisans as did the Dalmatians. Croats started joining in 1943 as they saw the writing on the wall. As for The Russo-German, Molotov-Ribbentrop or the Moscow Pact or whatever you want to call it you are absolutely correct. You omit however, USSR’s foreign minister Litvinov’s attempted to get Britain and France into an anti Nazi coalition which the later two ignored. Stalin saw this as an attempt by the British and the French to turn Hitler against USSR. A famous USSR cartoon 1937 shows a British bobby and a French gendarme (Chamberlain and Deladier) holding a road sign with and arrow pointing directing Hitler’s car towards Moscow.

To B92 - thank you for your post. It was extremely tactful & well put. I know I speak for a number of us who appreciate it!

This guy should call Chinese president now and say:

If no agreement with Tibet: indepence!

I mean, this is STUPID. Why should the Kosovars negotiate then?

It is like me negotiating with you over my debt. But if we don't agree I don't have to pay anything. Why should I be in for a compromise then?