Priština reacts to Dutch FM’s statement

"“I would like to point out that I did not suggest partition as a possible solution, rather as an example. If both sides agreed to it, the Dutch government would find it acceptable,” he stressed."

This reasonable approach is going to expose the intransigence of the Kosovo provincial government.

It just sounds farcical to hear Ceku et al talk about territorial integrity and not changing boundaries! But changing Serbian boundaries which are existing legitimate boundaries is okay? Such hypocrisy.

I really hope that there can be another solution instead of partition because it is still handing over a large chunk of sovereign territory. Judging by the comments from the Kosovo leadership they would never be satisfied until they have everything their own way. They would keep on attempting to annex territory in Presevo and beyond.

Ahmet commented just yesterday that when he looks around he is 'in Albania'. Not an independent Kosovo but a Greater Albania, which is so obviously the goal.

European boundaries cannot be redrawn based on regional ethnicity and threats of violence. If the UN and EU can't stand up to this sort of agenda now, it will never end.

The Troika should recommend that there should be a high level of autonomy with international supervision and staged reintegration into a new Serbia as part of the EU. This isn't an ideal solution for Serbia either because they would not have administrative control of the territory, but they have already voiced willingness to bend.

"As far as autonomy is concerend for Kosovo, thanks for being so 'generous', but no thanks!
(nikshala, 29. August 2007 12:04) "

Oh nikshala,

You can forget about independence. Stealing Serbian land is not allowed. We will wait for their beloved american friends to tell them that.

“If we start redrawing borders, who knows when and where it will stop,” he stressed"

who for heaven´s sake is the one who wants to redraw borders???

if this is not the most ridiculous statement made by him, then...

perhaps what is causing the real anger is that the Dutch is underlining the importance of a decision within the UN, ...the bell rings, ...it´s only a question of time until the illusionary pro-independence supporters will hear it.

The partition of Kosova will negatively affect all the region but first of all Serbia. The motto used for Nokia "The smaller, the better", could apply onwards to Serbia as well.

It is obvious that extremists can never be appeased but the majority of people are interested in their standard of living more than in politics.The EU must think outside the box on this Kosovo issue and apply the model uniformly in all the other conflict zones in Europe.Serbia's deed to Kosovo can never be legally revoked regardless of who lives on the land and tenants are in no position to usurp the landlord's legal rights.People come and go but the land is forever so if the EU wants to find a way to guarantee tenants rights then it can do so without usurping the landlord's interest.Shalom

Oh Kate

You and your autonomy.

Its one thing if you wish Kosovo would remain in Serbia (theoreically), but to actually suggest it as a possible solution, shows your lack of complete understandin of situation on the ground.

I have asked you many times, and many times you never answered - have you ever been in Kosovo post 1999 for a considerable amount of time? Have you ever talked to K. albanians in Kosovo?

I think i know the answer to that, but please answer and make it obvious to everyone else.

If you had been in Kosovo for considereable amount of time in contact K. Albanians then you would not be postiong ridicuolous proposals such as autonomy.

Like I said before any mature conversation regarding status of Kosovo, should start with the inevitable fact that at least the albanian part of Kosovo will get independence.

That is something that is not worth wasting time discussing, since it will never change.

What we should be discussin is what to do with the north of Kosovo - partition? autonomu within Kosovo? Confederation within Kosovo? etc etc.

As far as autonomy is concerend for Kosovo, thanks for being so 'generous', but no thanks!

Kate,

"This isn't an ideal solution for Serbia either because they would not have administrative control of the territory,"

The with your suggestion is that you are basicly offering us less than what we already have.

At this moment in time, all that we lack is the international recogninition of Kosova's Independence, because the independence itself was gained in 1999.

When i look out the window, i see no sign of Serbian sovreignty or administrative control. So how can you possibly offer us something that you neither have nor control?

Unfortunately, the only way for our two people to live in peace is to live apart, and the only way to live apart is Independence for Kosova.

If Pristinas reaction can get any more hypocritical. Lets see, territorial integrity of Kosovo didn't think they knew what that means. Honesty +K Albanian = oximoran. Listen Ceku & company, you have to understand that you are in no position to make demands or say this & that can or can not happen. You get what you get. Beggers cant be choosers. After they resolve this Kosovo situation the international community will wash their of the Albanian cause. No money in the world will drag them back into this again. So the Albanian population in the Greese, Macedonia & Montenegro have to deal with what they have because the cause is over. Serbia took the biggest hit in this situation just like they did vs the Turks when they sacrificed their lives to save Europe from the invading Ottomans. Greece: sorry for your loss and be strong my orthodox brothers.

1. Kosovo has not been independent since 1999.
2. Serbia did not win that war in 1999 but neither did Nato and the Albanians ( Resolution 1244)
3. kosovo will not be independent, I am not saying this because I am Serbian. You Albanians have to open your eyes just a bit. You have been promised independence since 1999 probably even before that by the U.S. they still haven’t delivered. Now they have more important thinks to worry about. Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, Terrorist, National Security.

All I am saying you guys should be a bit more realistic that your independence campaign is not the brightest.

If the highest powers where to grant you independence it would have been done by now.

Why do you think there has been a delay since 1999?

Why do you guys think that you can declare independence tomorrow.

All I am saying is that independence is not looking good.

Nick summed it up perfectly "Unfortunately, the only way for our two people to live in peace is to live apart, and the only way to live apart is Independence for Kosova."

Exactly, so partition is the only option. Unfortunately the Albanians want to control the Trepca mines which are mainly in the northern Serbian part of Kosovo. They claim that they cannot survive without this economic asset!! That's not Serbia's problem. The albanians will have to find other ways to make ends meet.

Kate
To reintegrate a new Serbia as part of the EU it would have been the best move but as we can see that EU and US have worked hard for the last 8 years to do the transition of Serbia but on the other hand Serbia's political elite has not changed from Milosevic's paths/ideas.
We hear every day comments of Belgrade's government threatening,walking out of international meetings,blocking Kosovan Serbs to return back to Kosovo,hiding war criminals,coruption etc.How EU and US will cooperate with such a government not stabile and not liable.
To many parties with to many wishes and all with partiac interests and people putting second,using radical and extrem propaganda for partiac benefits is not doing any good to Serbia or Europe.

Ratko,
Nobody is stealing the land of Serbia. Instead Serbia has to restituite the stolen lands by its forefathers (this process is already done with some other countries of the region). And now it is the turn of Kosova to get the statehood. And that means that Serbia is going to lie within its natural borders. And this is not a calamity. In fact this, coupled with the handling of the war criminals at the Hague Tribunal would create all the preconditions for Serbia to be considered a democratic and stable state, not Putin's way,of course.

Nikshala - Trepca mines in the north in the Serb part of Kosovo - so remind me again, which Albanian "authorities" are in charge there? Which Albanian forces are on the ground there? Unfortunately, just like Serbia can do nothing about NATO occupying Kosovo, the Albanians can do nothing about the Trepca mines being under Serbian control. Like i said, you'd better try to find another way to earn a living and if you can't then that's your problem, not Serbia's.

An Addendum. You Albanians talk about the "borders" of Kosovo as though it is a legitimate state. 1) it's an administrative border and 2) like i mentioned previously, even if you could make a case at the UN for statehood, the northern part of Kosovo could never legally be claimed by the Albanians as i'll explain again - NATO "intervened" to stop the "oppression" of the Albanians by the Serbs as allowed under the UN charter. But that law would only extend to Albanian lands as those were the people who were "oppressed". In northern Kosovo, when the JNA entered they did not fight with the Serbian population, therefore under NO UN law does the Albanians have the right to claim northern Kosovo and it can rightly stay within Serbia. No doubt this issue will not be discussedby the politicians as everyone knows this fact. The only discussion will be whether the albanian part of Kosovo will be allowed independence or not. And if you try to forcibly claim northern Kosovo then you will no doubt have a fight on your hands, which the US knows and can ill afford to take part in at the moment, especially as it looks likely they are about to open up a war on a third front - Iran.

One question which NO albanian has managed to answer yet. If this idea about independence is NOT about a land grab, then why do yo want to take the northern part as well? That's full of Serbs, not Albanians, why do you want that as well if all you want to do is have self determination? That's a pertinent question, especially considering your argument for independence states that you cannot live with the serbs? Why can you live with the Kosovo Serbs and no other Serbs?

I think evryone, Albanian and Serb on this forum know the answer to those questions. It's a naked attempt at a land grab. it has nothing to do with "oppression".

If you gain independence, good luck, but it'll be without the northern, Serbian dominated region of Kosovo.

"Inhumane, if Serbia cared for them, they would have put them in a shelter or somewhere better. Instead, serbia only wants to take Trepca.

B92 how can i post a link??
(KS, 29. August 2007 18:54) "

To ks,

It was albanians who ethnically clensed this Serb family from their ORIGINAL HOME!

Trepca mines are in the north, but they are controlled by Kosovan authorities, and as far as I know there are no serbs living in the mines! Therefore the mines belong to Kosovo -but wait a second, I thought Belgrade was intrested in K. Serbs and not the mines!

Resolution 1244 states its Serbian land. So its stealing Serbian land. But it wont be allowed. Serbia has to be willing to grant independence otherwise its autonomy. Nothing can change that. Not US not EU no one.

the idea of partition is so imature, and this dutch minister is really naive, for my opinion of course !!!

PB, what you wrote on your coment# 18, you are telling everybody that serbia is not after their so called craddle where Monastery of Deqni and Patriarch of Peja are of any interst to serbia, including all serb population living in those part such as Gorazhdevac, Ciga, Brestovika,Bjelllo polje, Osejane, Brezovica, hoqa and many other places, but all you care about norther part of Mitrovica where minireal wealth is located. way to go , you just showed you true face and i hope k-serbs will read your post.It is not about people and craddle of serbia is about natural wealth and greed.

Luciano

If you're correct on this whole landlord/tennant thing; then how do you explain East Timor, Hawaii, California, New Zealand, Israel, Australia?

Who cares what the Dutch government has to say? What have they done for anyone lately??

Furthermore to anyone on this commentary post that has made comments about KosovO & the "status" thereof - one question for you - who stole it & why. It is more important to any part of Serbia to remain with Serbia. Wonder how Hungary would feel if this independence happened?

KATE
"autonomy with international supervision "
Kate ,my question to you and other serbs that use the sme vocabularys : WHY YOU ALWAYS MENTION SUPERVISED AUTONOMY,IS THERE A NEED TO BE SUPERVISED,AFTER WE HAVE A SERBIAN WORD ,
You don don't have to answer ,we all know the answer

arben-Kosova-California: 'Supervised' autonomy is just a term. The same as 'supervised' independence. It refers to the period of international monitoring after any status decision is made. That's all.

First off, I would like to say to all the albanians who want this land- ITS KOSOVO, NOT KOSOVA, if you don't even know the legal name, why should you gain independence? And how can one say that we don't care about our people or our monasteries or the land itself? Serbia has been PAYING serbian people to go back so that we can outnumber your lot, we want to keep our land, and NO not for "greedy" purposes. Besides that, I totally agree with the landlord/tenant idea- I mean, put it this way, indians (no offense, just an example), started to move to new york in mass amounts, and soon enough they made up about 50% of New York's population. Now, what if they suddenly decided they wanted independence? , that they wanted to make New York THEIRS? Hm, let's see. No, it makes no sense at all, and this is EXACTLY what is happening to Kosovo. Kosovo has been apart of serbia since 1492. NOT ALBANIA. IT IS OURS, OUR HERITAGE, WE SHOULD NOT GIVE IT UP. It would show our weakness to give it to them, (just like we let montenegro seperate as well- don't you realize that it is a similar situation as kosovo?), instead, I say- we own it, we keep it. Who needs the E.U.? Have they done anything for us lately? No, actually they NEED US. We are the middle man, and without us, they will suffer, we're actually doing fine.

Technically, the "border" you are all referring to is actually a boundary, known as the administrative boundary line (ABL). Passing through this boundary for five years and spending many hours waiting to get through at Merdare, I was well schooled on its proper name.

As for my two cents: it is unclear to me why the Albanians would seek to subject Serbs in northern Kosovo to a situation they theymselves reject - being ruled by another group. This would be unacceptable to the Serbs and a constant thorn in the side of any K-Albanian dominated government. It's hypocracy all over again. For that reason, I feel the best solution for all involved is partition; this solution would mean comprimise from both sides, which is preferable to any zero-sum scenario. It's certainly not ideal, but Serbia deserves to gain something in this deal instead of losing everything. And the Albanians gain independence where they are the majority.

The more difficult question is what to do for other Serb dominated areas (though there are admittedly few) like Brezovica. Partition won't help them.

Whatever solution befalls Kosovo, I hope it is greeted peacefully.

Once again, visitors are reminded to link to outside articles they wish to alert fellow posters to, instead of copy pasting them in their entirety.

If you however wish to provide only some quotes, this will be posted with your message.

Thank you

B92

Kate ... (and the other Serbs folks who advocate autonomy)

Given the situation on the ground, autonomy would be IDEAL for Serbia; not a "compromise".

Serbia would get to keep the territory AND wash its hands of any responsibilities to help develop the province, since it is "autonomous." In other words, nothing would change from the pre-1999 situation. To the Kosovo Albanians this would mean that 10,000 of their folk died in vain. Like the other Albos here, I'd have to say autonomy is not an option.

Back to the article; the Dutch minister said "if both sides agree..." In that light, Ceku's criticism of that statement was unwarranted and unhelpful and why not say it, hypocritical. Again, given the situation on the ground, it is difficult to justify wanting to separate from Serbia entirely but then keep the Kosovo Serbs UNWILLINGLY under a "multi-ethnic" Kosovo state.

To the people here worried whether Kosovo partition will set a precedent for achieving ethnically pure states, I'd have to say, "not necessarily". If Kosovo were to be used as precedent, then the redrawing of borders elsewhere would also require MUTUAL agreements of those parties. I don't think Macedonia, Montenegro, Armenia, Romania, Moldavia or any other countries are in any mood to go through with partitions at this point.


Theoretically speaking, my personal order of preference would be:

1. A federal agreement of sorts - Kosovo (whole) is a republic and it cooperates with Serbia on foreign affairs and what not. Under this agreement, Kosovo is no longer autonomous and it gets to have a say in things like foreign policy etc. Call this independence "light". Serbia on the other hand, does not exactly "lose" Kosovo.

I expect many Albanians will probably not like this, but the way I look at it, we're all heading the same direction, the E.U. where're expected to give up some of the sovereignty of a nation state anyway.

Also, one of the main benefits I see of this over the 2nd choice below, is the removal of UN supervision over the "independent" Kosovo. That concept is replaced with cooperation between the two erstwhile foes and in the end that's what we'd all like to aim for. Between having an overlord vetoing what I do, or cooperation, I'd definitely pick the second option. This would also go a long way to disarm the extreme nationalists with their whole "Greater Albania" fear mongering.

2. Ahtisaari Plan

3. Partition

Exactly, so partition is the only option. Unfortunately the Albanians want to control the Trepca mines which are mainly in the northern Serbian part of Kosovo. They claim that they cannot survive without this economic asset!! That's not Serbia's problem. The albanians will have to find other ways to make ends meet.
(PB, 29. August 2007 13:17)

Serbia only wants to rob Kosova of its riches. I just saw on VOA (voice of america) these poor Kosovar-Serbs suffering in Belgrade (the capital of serbia); a family of 5 living in a room no more than 9x4. Inhumane, if Serbia cared for them, they would have put them in a shelter or somewhere better. Instead, serbia only wants to take Trepca.

B92 how can i post a link??

What the Albanians need to understand is that autonomy is a privilege that is granted by the federal government. Autonomy is granted only when its citizens are loyal to the state. The greatest communist crime perpetrated against Serbia was the establishment of the autonomous province of kosovo. The message was clear: the more insurrection and demands you make, the more you will be rewarded.

I am not a fan of milosevic myself because I think he harmed Serbia's interests in some ways, but he returned kosovo to its rightful status, based on the anti-state crimes that were happening there.

He sensed the Serbian Zeitgeist that this was the right thing to do.

I just wish that I could express myself fully here, to tell how I feel about my tax dollars being spit on by some of our neighbours in the south, tax dollars that helped support Albanian culture, but in the end, I agree with B92 that it does not help Serbia's interest, as a lot of the rhetoric is misunderstood by foreigners.

To my Albanian comrades: Don’t bite the hand that feeds you. We will forgive the sins of your forefathers, but you have to be willing to change. We offer you the PRIVILEDGE to the pursuit of happiness within the Serbian Kingdom. Be wise.

Agim Elshani - Correct. In the real world , countries only care about power and their resources. Whilst Serbia weant s to keep the Trepca mines, the Albanians want to steal it, and yes the word i used is correct - steal, as they have NO legal claim on northern Kosovo whatsoever. Many Serbs, including myself, have no interest in the churches in Kosovo. What's important is the standard of living. Praying in chiurch won't miraculously improve people's lives.

KS - Serbia cannot rob itself of something it already owns. On the contrary, it is the Albanians who want to rob the Serbs of their riches - the Trepca Mines on SERBIAN land , where the vast majority of the population are SERBIAN.

Explain to me why you have a right to claim northern Kosovo and the mines !!!! Come on, EXPLAIN.

To post a clickable link, simply copy and paste the entire url, complete with http://, of the page you wish to link fellow readers to.

Regards,

B92

RATKO, please don't talk about that family, like you said: "It was albanians who ethnically clensed this Serb family from their ORIGINAL HOME!", because I wrote a long article explaining everything but b92 decided not to post my article. Therefor blame b92 if you were intereste dto find out the truth.

KS,

I know families in Belgrade who AREN’T refugees who live under similar conditions. Its not unheard of.

Ment, I’m curious to hear more about your ideas.

What you are suggesting would be something like the old Yugoslavia. I think your right that when everyone joins the EU borders will start to be pretty meaningless. Why kill over borders when the end goal is to remove all borders in Europe. Voting districts are going to be what’s important. Also, very likely we would both get into the EU much quicker that way. On its own, without Trepca or union with Albanian, Kosova will have a difficult road to the EU.

Why don’t we agree to that on the condition that the EU lets us into the EU right now under “supervision”. Throw in Bosnia too, its already under “supervision”. Just announce to the international community that’s what we want. Let those Western countries that pretend to be so concerned for our fate put their money where their mouth is and do something right.

Regardless, I’d put instant EU membership at the top of my list for most desired outcomes.

But lets face, both our people will have the same issues being scattered in different countries when we join the EU. We have the opportunity right now to make some demands from the European community that will be beneficial for both our peoples.

In the past the West talked about imposing Kosovo independence on Serbia. This has obviously failed following Moscow's UN stand.

I know I am stirring up a hornet's nest here, but maybe it is time to talk about imposing partition on the 2 sides. With the additional clause that if the Albanians use this as an excuse to seek a greater Albania or stir trouble, that they must then be ostracised by the entire international community. This would be a powerful deterrent to any potential trouble makers since Kosovo's economy desperately needs foreign help.

And before anyone accuses me of being anti-Albanian, let me add that this principle should also apply to trouble makers from elsewhere eg. Chechnya, Srpska etc.

DimTuc ...

I think the option you suggested is fine too. The only difference is in details and maybe preference.

My preference would be to keep foreign intervention to a minimum. I think the first option would make a "Kosovo Confederation" unnecessary. The protection of minorities could be taken care of by a federal enforcement agency whose make-up would include different minorities, meaning Serb, Albanian, and any others in Kosovo and Serbia. The final structure would be more of a Serbia-Kosovo where Kosovo has a Serb minority population and Serbia has an Albanian minority population (Presevo etc.). This mutual dependency would probably ensure that both sides play nice to each other. I will not say that the Serbs and Albanians will grow to love one other any time soon as it will take some time for blood to cool off, but in the end an equality in decision making will go a long way to calm things down.

Mathew ...

Yes, the arrangement would be sort of like previous Yugoslavia, but in this case it would not be stitched together by communist ideology but rather by mutual understanding and a common end-goal.

You're right...a partitioned Kosovo, especially without any of the Trepca mines, would probably have a significantly harder time developing, but it's not impossible. If Singapore and Malta could figure out a way to get rich, so can Kosovo. It also has the benefit of having at least one friendly neighbour with which it can just eliminate any economic barriers at the very least. Still though... there are better options.

As for the EU, I'd love for the Balkans to join the EU, but I think joining now would be premature for the following reasons:

1. None of the countries you mentioned (including Albania - my country) have their act together quite yet. In other words, we tend to do reforms not because we believe in them, but mostly because of coercion from the EU, the World Bank and IMF. The problem with that is that we risk becoming like Romania, Poland, and to a lesser extent Bulgaria. Once these countries joined in, their resolve to keep going with the reforms went down the toilet. Premature "mission accomplished" so to speak. The Balkans would probably run in the same trouble.

2. This is probably pride talking, but why join the EU as beggars/"blackmailers"? Let these countries accomplish something worth mentioning first (such as laying ethnic conflicts to rest, reducing crime and corruption) before demanding membership. This way we might even get a better deal from the EU and less "supervision" once there. I think the intermediate goal should be to get the EU to open up the markets for us and leave the political stuff for later. Politically speaking, this gives the countries of the Balkans some breathing room to manneuver without all the red tape from Brussels, while maintaining the incentives to keep on reforming. We also have to face the fact that the EU is experiencing major enlargement fatigue at this moment.

Sorry for the long post ...

Ment, I’m a Yugophile, and being Montenegrin from a mixed clan I feel an affinity for the Albanians as well.

My motivations are threefold. One, to protect minorities, two for Serbs to preserve our culture in Kosovo, and three, for the Kosovar people to be economically stable. Any solution that meets those 3 criteria I would probably support.

I would have to say I think I pretty much agree with every thing you’ve said. However, I’m not a fan of Ahtisaari’s plan, it has some fatal flaws. Paragraph 3.7 of Annex II makes it relatively easy to modify or abolish most of the minority rights, and a lot of those protections are overly vague and open to interpretation anyway.

I look forward to hearing more of your comments, and don’t let the nationalists frustrate you.

Kete,
the point is that even you don't trust yourself,even you think that there is a need to be monotorized (supervised ),because you are not( Serbs) to be trusted.
I did't ask you to find another synonym for supervised

I don't think most of the people commenting here get the point about this partition talk.
If partition was to be seriously talked about then the Albanian side has to make some noise. It has to let the Troika and the international community that they are breaking their own principles. It has to make them aware. Once they make them aware and partition is seriously being talked about, then they point out that the no joining with other countries principle is broken too since partition breaks their principles. Then the Albanian side will get into the partition talks only under the condition that the Albanian side of Kosova/o joins Albania.
I think that is one possible scenario.

Ment:
"Theoretically speaking, my personal order of preference would be:

1. A federal agreement of sorts - Kosovo (whole) is a republic and it cooperates with Serbia on foreign affairs and what not.

"2. Ahtisaari Plan

"3. Partition"

What about (4) a mixture between 1 and 2 - Kosovo/a independent as in 2, but unlike the mere municipalities in 2, this Kosova is a confederation between a K Albanian and a K Serb state.

Even has aspects of 3 (partition), but without its most negative consequences.

And, like Ment's (1), could also have the benefit over 2 of the removal of UN supervision over the "independent" Kosovo/a (which would not have to exclude some international forces protecting the smaller and more vulnerable minority areas)

Noone neeeds to tell me it's far from a perfect solution, just that there seem to be none of those on offer

Kate,
First of all there was no need for answer ,because I new that you will only twist the word,you replaced "superised" w/ monitored .The point is why do you think there is a need for supervision,or monitoring ?.Why can you answer on asimple question with a simple answer like yeah, we use to kill you for last100 years ,and now the world dosen't trust us.

Mathew...

I definitely agree with you on the three priorities and if that means modifying and enhancing the plan... so be it. I'm willing to bet that even Ahtisaari himself would have no problem with refining some of the points of his plan.

Any attempts at improving the package though, would require that Serbia accept in principle the concept of an independent Kosovo as a starting point .... and we all know how well that's going :)

The partition of Kosova will negatively affect all the region but first of all Serbia. The motto used for Nokia "The smaller, the better", could apply onwards to Serbia as well.

Kate,

"This isn't an ideal solution for Serbia either because they would not have administrative control of the territory,"

The with your suggestion is that you are basicly offering us less than what we already have.

At this moment in time, all that we lack is the international recogninition of Kosova's Independence, because the independence itself was gained in 1999.

When i look out the window, i see no sign of Serbian sovreignty or administrative control. So how can you possibly offer us something that you neither have nor control?

Unfortunately, the only way for our two people to live in peace is to live apart, and the only way to live apart is Independence for Kosova.

Oh Kate

You and your autonomy.

Its one thing if you wish Kosovo would remain in Serbia (theoreically), but to actually suggest it as a possible solution, shows your lack of complete understandin of situation on the ground.

I have asked you many times, and many times you never answered - have you ever been in Kosovo post 1999 for a considerable amount of time? Have you ever talked to K. albanians in Kosovo?

I think i know the answer to that, but please answer and make it obvious to everyone else.

If you had been in Kosovo for considereable amount of time in contact K. Albanians then you would not be postiong ridicuolous proposals such as autonomy.

Like I said before any mature conversation regarding status of Kosovo, should start with the inevitable fact that at least the albanian part of Kosovo will get independence.

That is something that is not worth wasting time discussing, since it will never change.

What we should be discussin is what to do with the north of Kosovo - partition? autonomu within Kosovo? Confederation within Kosovo? etc etc.

As far as autonomy is concerend for Kosovo, thanks for being so 'generous', but no thanks!

"“I would like to point out that I did not suggest partition as a possible solution, rather as an example. If both sides agreed to it, the Dutch government would find it acceptable,” he stressed."

This reasonable approach is going to expose the intransigence of the Kosovo provincial government.

It just sounds farcical to hear Ceku et al talk about territorial integrity and not changing boundaries! But changing Serbian boundaries which are existing legitimate boundaries is okay? Such hypocrisy.

I really hope that there can be another solution instead of partition because it is still handing over a large chunk of sovereign territory. Judging by the comments from the Kosovo leadership they would never be satisfied until they have everything their own way. They would keep on attempting to annex territory in Presevo and beyond.

Ahmet commented just yesterday that when he looks around he is 'in Albania'. Not an independent Kosovo but a Greater Albania, which is so obviously the goal.

European boundaries cannot be redrawn based on regional ethnicity and threats of violence. If the UN and EU can't stand up to this sort of agenda now, it will never end.

The Troika should recommend that there should be a high level of autonomy with international supervision and staged reintegration into a new Serbia as part of the EU. This isn't an ideal solution for Serbia either because they would not have administrative control of the territory, but they have already voiced willingness to bend.

Trepca mines are in the north, but they are controlled by Kosovan authorities, and as far as I know there are no serbs living in the mines! Therefore the mines belong to Kosovo -but wait a second, I thought Belgrade was intrested in K. Serbs and not the mines!

Ratko,
Nobody is stealing the land of Serbia. Instead Serbia has to restituite the stolen lands by its forefathers (this process is already done with some other countries of the region). And now it is the turn of Kosova to get the statehood. And that means that Serbia is going to lie within its natural borders. And this is not a calamity. In fact this, coupled with the handling of the war criminals at the Hague Tribunal would create all the preconditions for Serbia to be considered a democratic and stable state, not Putin's way,of course.

Kate
To reintegrate a new Serbia as part of the EU it would have been the best move but as we can see that EU and US have worked hard for the last 8 years to do the transition of Serbia but on the other hand Serbia's political elite has not changed from Milosevic's paths/ideas.
We hear every day comments of Belgrade's government threatening,walking out of international meetings,blocking Kosovan Serbs to return back to Kosovo,hiding war criminals,coruption etc.How EU and US will cooperate with such a government not stabile and not liable.
To many parties with to many wishes and all with partiac interests and people putting second,using radical and extrem propaganda for partiac benefits is not doing any good to Serbia or Europe.

If Pristinas reaction can get any more hypocritical. Lets see, territorial integrity of Kosovo didn't think they knew what that means. Honesty +K Albanian = oximoran. Listen Ceku & company, you have to understand that you are in no position to make demands or say this & that can or can not happen. You get what you get. Beggers cant be choosers. After they resolve this Kosovo situation the international community will wash their of the Albanian cause. No money in the world will drag them back into this again. So the Albanian population in the Greese, Macedonia & Montenegro have to deal with what they have because the cause is over. Serbia took the biggest hit in this situation just like they did vs the Turks when they sacrificed their lives to save Europe from the invading Ottomans. Greece: sorry for your loss and be strong my orthodox brothers.

Kate ... (and the other Serbs folks who advocate autonomy)

Given the situation on the ground, autonomy would be IDEAL for Serbia; not a "compromise".

Serbia would get to keep the territory AND wash its hands of any responsibilities to help develop the province, since it is "autonomous." In other words, nothing would change from the pre-1999 situation. To the Kosovo Albanians this would mean that 10,000 of their folk died in vain. Like the other Albos here, I'd have to say autonomy is not an option.

Back to the article; the Dutch minister said "if both sides agree..." In that light, Ceku's criticism of that statement was unwarranted and unhelpful and why not say it, hypocritical. Again, given the situation on the ground, it is difficult to justify wanting to separate from Serbia entirely but then keep the Kosovo Serbs UNWILLINGLY under a "multi-ethnic" Kosovo state.

To the people here worried whether Kosovo partition will set a precedent for achieving ethnically pure states, I'd have to say, "not necessarily". If Kosovo were to be used as precedent, then the redrawing of borders elsewhere would also require MUTUAL agreements of those parties. I don't think Macedonia, Montenegro, Armenia, Romania, Moldavia or any other countries are in any mood to go through with partitions at this point.


Theoretically speaking, my personal order of preference would be:

1. A federal agreement of sorts - Kosovo (whole) is a republic and it cooperates with Serbia on foreign affairs and what not. Under this agreement, Kosovo is no longer autonomous and it gets to have a say in things like foreign policy etc. Call this independence "light". Serbia on the other hand, does not exactly "lose" Kosovo.

I expect many Albanians will probably not like this, but the way I look at it, we're all heading the same direction, the E.U. where're expected to give up some of the sovereignty of a nation state anyway.

Also, one of the main benefits I see of this over the 2nd choice below, is the removal of UN supervision over the "independent" Kosovo. That concept is replaced with cooperation between the two erstwhile foes and in the end that's what we'd all like to aim for. Between having an overlord vetoing what I do, or cooperation, I'd definitely pick the second option. This would also go a long way to disarm the extreme nationalists with their whole "Greater Albania" fear mongering.

2. Ahtisaari Plan

3. Partition

Exactly, so partition is the only option. Unfortunately the Albanians want to control the Trepca mines which are mainly in the northern Serbian part of Kosovo. They claim that they cannot survive without this economic asset!! That's not Serbia's problem. The albanians will have to find other ways to make ends meet.
(PB, 29. August 2007 13:17)

Serbia only wants to rob Kosova of its riches. I just saw on VOA (voice of america) these poor Kosovar-Serbs suffering in Belgrade (the capital of serbia); a family of 5 living in a room no more than 9x4. Inhumane, if Serbia cared for them, they would have put them in a shelter or somewhere better. Instead, serbia only wants to take Trepca.

B92 how can i post a link??

PB, what you wrote on your coment# 18, you are telling everybody that serbia is not after their so called craddle where Monastery of Deqni and Patriarch of Peja are of any interst to serbia, including all serb population living in those part such as Gorazhdevac, Ciga, Brestovika,Bjelllo polje, Osejane, Brezovica, hoqa and many other places, but all you care about norther part of Mitrovica where minireal wealth is located. way to go , you just showed you true face and i hope k-serbs will read your post.It is not about people and craddle of serbia is about natural wealth and greed.

RATKO, please don't talk about that family, like you said: "It was albanians who ethnically clensed this Serb family from their ORIGINAL HOME!", because I wrote a long article explaining everything but b92 decided not to post my article. Therefor blame b92 if you were intereste dto find out the truth.

the idea of partition is so imature, and this dutch minister is really naive, for my opinion of course !!!

“If we start redrawing borders, who knows when and where it will stop,” he stressed"

who for heaven´s sake is the one who wants to redraw borders???

if this is not the most ridiculous statement made by him, then...

perhaps what is causing the real anger is that the Dutch is underlining the importance of a decision within the UN, ...the bell rings, ...it´s only a question of time until the illusionary pro-independence supporters will hear it.

"As far as autonomy is concerend for Kosovo, thanks for being so 'generous', but no thanks!
(nikshala, 29. August 2007 12:04) "

Oh nikshala,

You can forget about independence. Stealing Serbian land is not allowed. We will wait for their beloved american friends to tell them that.

1. Kosovo has not been independent since 1999.
2. Serbia did not win that war in 1999 but neither did Nato and the Albanians ( Resolution 1244)
3. kosovo will not be independent, I am not saying this because I am Serbian. You Albanians have to open your eyes just a bit. You have been promised independence since 1999 probably even before that by the U.S. they still haven’t delivered. Now they have more important thinks to worry about. Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, Terrorist, National Security.

All I am saying you guys should be a bit more realistic that your independence campaign is not the brightest.

If the highest powers where to grant you independence it would have been done by now.

Why do you think there has been a delay since 1999?

Why do you guys think that you can declare independence tomorrow.

All I am saying is that independence is not looking good.

Resolution 1244 states its Serbian land. So its stealing Serbian land. But it wont be allowed. Serbia has to be willing to grant independence otherwise its autonomy. Nothing can change that. Not US not EU no one.

It is obvious that extremists can never be appeased but the majority of people are interested in their standard of living more than in politics.The EU must think outside the box on this Kosovo issue and apply the model uniformly in all the other conflict zones in Europe.Serbia's deed to Kosovo can never be legally revoked regardless of who lives on the land and tenants are in no position to usurp the landlord's legal rights.People come and go but the land is forever so if the EU wants to find a way to guarantee tenants rights then it can do so without usurping the landlord's interest.Shalom

Luciano

If you're correct on this whole landlord/tennant thing; then how do you explain East Timor, Hawaii, California, New Zealand, Israel, Australia?

KATE
"autonomy with international supervision "
Kate ,my question to you and other serbs that use the sme vocabularys : WHY YOU ALWAYS MENTION SUPERVISED AUTONOMY,IS THERE A NEED TO BE SUPERVISED,AFTER WE HAVE A SERBIAN WORD ,
You don don't have to answer ,we all know the answer

Kete,
the point is that even you don't trust yourself,even you think that there is a need to be monotorized (supervised ),because you are not( Serbs) to be trusted.
I did't ask you to find another synonym for supervised

Nick summed it up perfectly "Unfortunately, the only way for our two people to live in peace is to live apart, and the only way to live apart is Independence for Kosova."

Exactly, so partition is the only option. Unfortunately the Albanians want to control the Trepca mines which are mainly in the northern Serbian part of Kosovo. They claim that they cannot survive without this economic asset!! That's not Serbia's problem. The albanians will have to find other ways to make ends meet.

Once again, visitors are reminded to link to outside articles they wish to alert fellow posters to, instead of copy pasting them in their entirety.

If you however wish to provide only some quotes, this will be posted with your message.

Thank you

B92

Nikshala - Trepca mines in the north in the Serb part of Kosovo - so remind me again, which Albanian "authorities" are in charge there? Which Albanian forces are on the ground there? Unfortunately, just like Serbia can do nothing about NATO occupying Kosovo, the Albanians can do nothing about the Trepca mines being under Serbian control. Like i said, you'd better try to find another way to earn a living and if you can't then that's your problem, not Serbia's.

An Addendum. You Albanians talk about the "borders" of Kosovo as though it is a legitimate state. 1) it's an administrative border and 2) like i mentioned previously, even if you could make a case at the UN for statehood, the northern part of Kosovo could never legally be claimed by the Albanians as i'll explain again - NATO "intervened" to stop the "oppression" of the Albanians by the Serbs as allowed under the UN charter. But that law would only extend to Albanian lands as those were the people who were "oppressed". In northern Kosovo, when the JNA entered they did not fight with the Serbian population, therefore under NO UN law does the Albanians have the right to claim northern Kosovo and it can rightly stay within Serbia. No doubt this issue will not be discussedby the politicians as everyone knows this fact. The only discussion will be whether the albanian part of Kosovo will be allowed independence or not. And if you try to forcibly claim northern Kosovo then you will no doubt have a fight on your hands, which the US knows and can ill afford to take part in at the moment, especially as it looks likely they are about to open up a war on a third front - Iran.

One question which NO albanian has managed to answer yet. If this idea about independence is NOT about a land grab, then why do yo want to take the northern part as well? That's full of Serbs, not Albanians, why do you want that as well if all you want to do is have self determination? That's a pertinent question, especially considering your argument for independence states that you cannot live with the serbs? Why can you live with the Kosovo Serbs and no other Serbs?

I think evryone, Albanian and Serb on this forum know the answer to those questions. It's a naked attempt at a land grab. it has nothing to do with "oppression".

If you gain independence, good luck, but it'll be without the northern, Serbian dominated region of Kosovo.

To post a clickable link, simply copy and paste the entire url, complete with http://, of the page you wish to link fellow readers to.

Regards,

B92

"Inhumane, if Serbia cared for them, they would have put them in a shelter or somewhere better. Instead, serbia only wants to take Trepca.

B92 how can i post a link??
(KS, 29. August 2007 18:54) "

To ks,

It was albanians who ethnically clensed this Serb family from their ORIGINAL HOME!

Who cares what the Dutch government has to say? What have they done for anyone lately??

Furthermore to anyone on this commentary post that has made comments about KosovO & the "status" thereof - one question for you - who stole it & why. It is more important to any part of Serbia to remain with Serbia. Wonder how Hungary would feel if this independence happened?

arben-Kosova-California: 'Supervised' autonomy is just a term. The same as 'supervised' independence. It refers to the period of international monitoring after any status decision is made. That's all.

I don't think most of the people commenting here get the point about this partition talk.
If partition was to be seriously talked about then the Albanian side has to make some noise. It has to let the Troika and the international community that they are breaking their own principles. It has to make them aware. Once they make them aware and partition is seriously being talked about, then they point out that the no joining with other countries principle is broken too since partition breaks their principles. Then the Albanian side will get into the partition talks only under the condition that the Albanian side of Kosova/o joins Albania.
I think that is one possible scenario.

Ment:
"Theoretically speaking, my personal order of preference would be:

1. A federal agreement of sorts - Kosovo (whole) is a republic and it cooperates with Serbia on foreign affairs and what not.

"2. Ahtisaari Plan

"3. Partition"

What about (4) a mixture between 1 and 2 - Kosovo/a independent as in 2, but unlike the mere municipalities in 2, this Kosova is a confederation between a K Albanian and a K Serb state.

Even has aspects of 3 (partition), but without its most negative consequences.

And, like Ment's (1), could also have the benefit over 2 of the removal of UN supervision over the "independent" Kosovo/a (which would not have to exclude some international forces protecting the smaller and more vulnerable minority areas)

Noone neeeds to tell me it's far from a perfect solution, just that there seem to be none of those on offer

What the Albanians need to understand is that autonomy is a privilege that is granted by the federal government. Autonomy is granted only when its citizens are loyal to the state. The greatest communist crime perpetrated against Serbia was the establishment of the autonomous province of kosovo. The message was clear: the more insurrection and demands you make, the more you will be rewarded.

I am not a fan of milosevic myself because I think he harmed Serbia's interests in some ways, but he returned kosovo to its rightful status, based on the anti-state crimes that were happening there.

He sensed the Serbian Zeitgeist that this was the right thing to do.

I just wish that I could express myself fully here, to tell how I feel about my tax dollars being spit on by some of our neighbours in the south, tax dollars that helped support Albanian culture, but in the end, I agree with B92 that it does not help Serbia's interest, as a lot of the rhetoric is misunderstood by foreigners.

To my Albanian comrades: Don’t bite the hand that feeds you. We will forgive the sins of your forefathers, but you have to be willing to change. We offer you the PRIVILEDGE to the pursuit of happiness within the Serbian Kingdom. Be wise.

First off, I would like to say to all the albanians who want this land- ITS KOSOVO, NOT KOSOVA, if you don't even know the legal name, why should you gain independence? And how can one say that we don't care about our people or our monasteries or the land itself? Serbia has been PAYING serbian people to go back so that we can outnumber your lot, we want to keep our land, and NO not for "greedy" purposes. Besides that, I totally agree with the landlord/tenant idea- I mean, put it this way, indians (no offense, just an example), started to move to new york in mass amounts, and soon enough they made up about 50% of New York's population. Now, what if they suddenly decided they wanted independence? , that they wanted to make New York THEIRS? Hm, let's see. No, it makes no sense at all, and this is EXACTLY what is happening to Kosovo. Kosovo has been apart of serbia since 1492. NOT ALBANIA. IT IS OURS, OUR HERITAGE, WE SHOULD NOT GIVE IT UP. It would show our weakness to give it to them, (just like we let montenegro seperate as well- don't you realize that it is a similar situation as kosovo?), instead, I say- we own it, we keep it. Who needs the E.U.? Have they done anything for us lately? No, actually they NEED US. We are the middle man, and without us, they will suffer, we're actually doing fine.

KS,

I know families in Belgrade who AREN’T refugees who live under similar conditions. Its not unheard of.

Ment, I’m curious to hear more about your ideas.

What you are suggesting would be something like the old Yugoslavia. I think your right that when everyone joins the EU borders will start to be pretty meaningless. Why kill over borders when the end goal is to remove all borders in Europe. Voting districts are going to be what’s important. Also, very likely we would both get into the EU much quicker that way. On its own, without Trepca or union with Albanian, Kosova will have a difficult road to the EU.

Why don’t we agree to that on the condition that the EU lets us into the EU right now under “supervision”. Throw in Bosnia too, its already under “supervision”. Just announce to the international community that’s what we want. Let those Western countries that pretend to be so concerned for our fate put their money where their mouth is and do something right.

Regardless, I’d put instant EU membership at the top of my list for most desired outcomes.

But lets face, both our people will have the same issues being scattered in different countries when we join the EU. We have the opportunity right now to make some demands from the European community that will be beneficial for both our peoples.

In the past the West talked about imposing Kosovo independence on Serbia. This has obviously failed following Moscow's UN stand.

I know I am stirring up a hornet's nest here, but maybe it is time to talk about imposing partition on the 2 sides. With the additional clause that if the Albanians use this as an excuse to seek a greater Albania or stir trouble, that they must then be ostracised by the entire international community. This would be a powerful deterrent to any potential trouble makers since Kosovo's economy desperately needs foreign help.

And before anyone accuses me of being anti-Albanian, let me add that this principle should also apply to trouble makers from elsewhere eg. Chechnya, Srpska etc.

Kate,
First of all there was no need for answer ,because I new that you will only twist the word,you replaced "superised" w/ monitored .The point is why do you think there is a need for supervision,or monitoring ?.Why can you answer on asimple question with a simple answer like yeah, we use to kill you for last100 years ,and now the world dosen't trust us.

Technically, the "border" you are all referring to is actually a boundary, known as the administrative boundary line (ABL). Passing through this boundary for five years and spending many hours waiting to get through at Merdare, I was well schooled on its proper name.

As for my two cents: it is unclear to me why the Albanians would seek to subject Serbs in northern Kosovo to a situation they theymselves reject - being ruled by another group. This would be unacceptable to the Serbs and a constant thorn in the side of any K-Albanian dominated government. It's hypocracy all over again. For that reason, I feel the best solution for all involved is partition; this solution would mean comprimise from both sides, which is preferable to any zero-sum scenario. It's certainly not ideal, but Serbia deserves to gain something in this deal instead of losing everything. And the Albanians gain independence where they are the majority.

The more difficult question is what to do for other Serb dominated areas (though there are admittedly few) like Brezovica. Partition won't help them.

Whatever solution befalls Kosovo, I hope it is greeted peacefully.

Agim Elshani - Correct. In the real world , countries only care about power and their resources. Whilst Serbia weant s to keep the Trepca mines, the Albanians want to steal it, and yes the word i used is correct - steal, as they have NO legal claim on northern Kosovo whatsoever. Many Serbs, including myself, have no interest in the churches in Kosovo. What's important is the standard of living. Praying in chiurch won't miraculously improve people's lives.

KS - Serbia cannot rob itself of something it already owns. On the contrary, it is the Albanians who want to rob the Serbs of their riches - the Trepca Mines on SERBIAN land , where the vast majority of the population are SERBIAN.

Explain to me why you have a right to claim northern Kosovo and the mines !!!! Come on, EXPLAIN.

DimTuc ...

I think the option you suggested is fine too. The only difference is in details and maybe preference.

My preference would be to keep foreign intervention to a minimum. I think the first option would make a "Kosovo Confederation" unnecessary. The protection of minorities could be taken care of by a federal enforcement agency whose make-up would include different minorities, meaning Serb, Albanian, and any others in Kosovo and Serbia. The final structure would be more of a Serbia-Kosovo where Kosovo has a Serb minority population and Serbia has an Albanian minority population (Presevo etc.). This mutual dependency would probably ensure that both sides play nice to each other. I will not say that the Serbs and Albanians will grow to love one other any time soon as it will take some time for blood to cool off, but in the end an equality in decision making will go a long way to calm things down.

Mathew ...

Yes, the arrangement would be sort of like previous Yugoslavia, but in this case it would not be stitched together by communist ideology but rather by mutual understanding and a common end-goal.

You're right...a partitioned Kosovo, especially without any of the Trepca mines, would probably have a significantly harder time developing, but it's not impossible. If Singapore and Malta could figure out a way to get rich, so can Kosovo. It also has the benefit of having at least one friendly neighbour with which it can just eliminate any economic barriers at the very least. Still though... there are better options.

As for the EU, I'd love for the Balkans to join the EU, but I think joining now would be premature for the following reasons:

1. None of the countries you mentioned (including Albania - my country) have their act together quite yet. In other words, we tend to do reforms not because we believe in them, but mostly because of coercion from the EU, the World Bank and IMF. The problem with that is that we risk becoming like Romania, Poland, and to a lesser extent Bulgaria. Once these countries joined in, their resolve to keep going with the reforms went down the toilet. Premature "mission accomplished" so to speak. The Balkans would probably run in the same trouble.

2. This is probably pride talking, but why join the EU as beggars/"blackmailers"? Let these countries accomplish something worth mentioning first (such as laying ethnic conflicts to rest, reducing crime and corruption) before demanding membership. This way we might even get a better deal from the EU and less "supervision" once there. I think the intermediate goal should be to get the EU to open up the markets for us and leave the political stuff for later. Politically speaking, this gives the countries of the Balkans some breathing room to manneuver without all the red tape from Brussels, while maintaining the incentives to keep on reforming. We also have to face the fact that the EU is experiencing major enlargement fatigue at this moment.

Sorry for the long post ...

Ment, I’m a Yugophile, and being Montenegrin from a mixed clan I feel an affinity for the Albanians as well.

My motivations are threefold. One, to protect minorities, two for Serbs to preserve our culture in Kosovo, and three, for the Kosovar people to be economically stable. Any solution that meets those 3 criteria I would probably support.

I would have to say I think I pretty much agree with every thing you’ve said. However, I’m not a fan of Ahtisaari’s plan, it has some fatal flaws. Paragraph 3.7 of Annex II makes it relatively easy to modify or abolish most of the minority rights, and a lot of those protections are overly vague and open to interpretation anyway.

I look forward to hearing more of your comments, and don’t let the nationalists frustrate you.

Mathew...

I definitely agree with you on the three priorities and if that means modifying and enhancing the plan... so be it. I'm willing to bet that even Ahtisaari himself would have no problem with refining some of the points of his plan.

Any attempts at improving the package though, would require that Serbia accept in principle the concept of an independent Kosovo as a starting point .... and we all know how well that's going :)