Skopje maintains Kosovo position

Jack - I would like to support Macedonia but when their government makes ridiculous statements such as these, it makes supporting them impossible. It sounds like he is reading from a statement prepared for him by the US State Department. The Macedonian government is very myopic of they think that an independent Kosovo will not threaten their sovereignty. If Kosovo goes, so will western Macedonia - it is already a forbidden zone for anyone non-albanian anyways.
As for the name 'Macedonia', historically Macedonians are Hellenic people, not Slavs, and the present day Slavs that call themselves Macedonians have nothing to do with Alexander the Great. I am with the Greeks on this one. Greeks have been very good allies to Serbs.

Who do you Serbs support in the conflict between FYROM and Greece? Your Orthodox brothers the 'Macedonians' or your Orthodox brothers the Greeks? Just so we know if the Greeks are doing the right thing by supporting Serbia.

Although Macedonia officially maintains that ethnic Albanians form a quarter of her population, some estimates put is as high as over 40%. No wonder then that Skopje is worried.

" Western Macedonia an no-go area for non-albanians"!!! - Dragan what are you on about?
Have you ever been to Macedonia?

There is no limit to serbian propaganda

Macedonia has realized that a multi-ethnic state will exist based on mutual respect. Serbia had a chance but instead got greedy and started ethnic clensing and genocide-therefore making enemies of non-serbs. This is why the Serbian dream of Kosova is over and done. Albanians will never be caught dead in any form in the same state as Serbia. In addition, Serbia should worry because Albanians are going to double their population in the next 30-50 years while serb numbers are declining. So, Serbia with dominating older population will be neighboring an increasing and a predominantly young and vibrant population of Kosova.
-The wise say: "Better give up Kosova peacefully while still maintaining the state of Serbia (excluding Kosova)than be overcome by Albanians." ...Unless, of course, they decide to import youth from Russia-oh yes, Russian population statistics are no better than those of serbs.
My dear friends, Macedonia will be a peaceful multi-ethnic state with nothing to worry. Albanians there have a university and are rapidly gaining equal status with Macedonians. Macedonia will survive.

By 2010 70% of all energy in the Balkans will be provided by Russian gas lines running through Serbia, Macedonia will depend on this energy very much, also one must remember that Macedonia exports to Serbia more than anywhere else in the World. And the Macedonian government would do will to realize that 80% of their population share much in common with Serbian people, any move that alienates the relationship between these two peoples will be felt by the Macedonian Government, their people won't sit still for this, especially because they have their own problems with Albanians in their country. It is Macedonia that loses for choosing to back a greater Albania and NOT Serbia.

here we go the neighbours are getting nerveous,i just dont understand how can makedonia support ahtisari plan but not willing to do same for their albanian brothers, just dont know
zivela srbija....zoran

I 100% dis-agree with the our government's position on the Kosovo issue, Kosovo is Serbian and always will be. Dragain Western Macedonia is not as bad as it seems the only cities are Tetovo and Gostivar whom are a majority of Albanians otherwise the rest is all populated by Macedonians. No chance the Albanians form over 25% of our poppulation, I guarantee you that.

Zoran, the Ahtisari Plan for Macedonia has a different name. Its called the Ohrid agreement.
Unlike the Serbs the Macedonians decided or were made not to go for all or nothing. This is why today the Albanians are part of the state and state institutions there. I don't think the average Albanian there has any problem being in the state of Macedonia just as long the Ohrid agreement is fulfilled, or in other words be treated as equal citizens of Macedonia.
Serbia had the same chance as Macedonia but ruined it itself. If it had played smartly there wouldn't even be a Kosova/o question today. There would be Albanians in the Serbian parliament, the Serbian government; and Albanian would be an official language in Kosova/o. That is how the modern Serbia would look like today. Instead Serbia opted for ethnic cleansing and now it finds itself to be cornered by the west. Of course as always Serbia is blaming everyone else but itself.

It is no wonder, Skopje wants the Pandora box to remain close. Besides, they have to be in line with the EU since they have applied for EU and NATO membership. The Slav Macedonians know pretty well how precious is stability and peace the Ahtisari package guarantees.

Western Macedonia an no-go area for non-albanians"!!! - Dragan what are you on about?
Have you ever been to Macedonia?

There is no limit to serbian propaganda
(nikshala, 24. August 2007 16:51)

I'm gonna answer that for you because i grew up in Macedonia.

There are still some areas, especially villages, where Macdonian people or even officials are not welcome. There are whole Albanian populated villages where noone pays any utility bills and the officals don't dare to go in and collect the fees for fear of being shot dead. We couldn't live more divided lives than we already do, even if we tried. My opinion is that Albanians don't need the independence but integration into the comunties, they need to try to live with us, not against us!

here we go the neighbours are getting nerveous,i just dont understand how can makedonia support ahtisari plan but not willing to do same for their albanian brothers, just dont know
zivela srbija....zoran

We support Serbia but our goverment is on the american payroll:-)

Anyway, we are on the same side with our Serbian
brothers;-)

Dragan, your statement that Macedonia is "Greek" is uninformed and political (intentionally!?). Macedonia has never been Greek, but has always been a distinct and separate entity. The ancient orators of the city states themselves claim this ad infinitum!

There are 2 theories, Slav migrations. This recent theory is proposed by the creators of modern Greece, the Germans.( Why do no Roman historians mention the so-called Slav migrations?) Second, the whole area is paleo-Slavic. IE; the ancient Macedonians and others were proto-Slavs. This second theory is fast overtaking the first. Finally, the Greeks have no proof!! DO you have any? Orther than that the Anc. Maks. were Hellenized. (Hellenism, is a state of consciousness, a set of ethical guidelines as an ideal for human behaviour, not an Ethnic identifier.)
(Dimitar, 25. August 2007 08:30)
Hellenized means turned into Greek, lingusitically assimilated by Greeks
As for your 'Paleo-Slavic theory' it's too ludicrous to even deserve debating.
When the Slavs came to Macedonia they found a Greek-speaking population i.e. GREEKS
Deal with it

Dragan, your statement that Macedonia is "Greek" is uninformed and political (intentionally!?). Macedonia has never been Greek, but has always been a distinct and separate entity. The ancient orators of the city states themselves claim this ad infinitum!

There are 2 theories, Slav migrations. This recent theory is proposed by the creators of modern Greece, the Germans.( Why do no Roman historians mention the so-called Slav migrations?) Second, the whole area is paleo-Slavic. IE; the ancient Macedonians and others were proto-Slavs. This second theory is fast overtaking the first. Finally, the Greeks have no proof!! DO you have any? Orther than that the Anc. Maks. were Hellenized. (Hellenism, is a state of consciousness, a set of ethical guidelines as an ideal for human behaviour, not an Ethnic identifier.)

Dragan, just becasue greeks have been old allies for serbia you are willing to dostord the truth and don't care if you lie. By the way Macedonians are Bulgarians and not helenicas (word meaning greek) as you claim. You are willing to say anything and everything even if it means lying.

To my Greek Friends, I know this will hurt, but after all, I am a history professor.
Deal with this: Macedonians are Macedonian and Greeks are Greeks.
Greeks have nothing to do with Ancient Macedonians, the Macedonians do.
Alexandar was Macedonian not Greek.
Up until 1860 there was no such thing as "Greek" language. The Koine language was adopted by the English Govt which in turn told the Greek population "this is your language, use it!" This was done simply to stop Russian influence in the South Balkans. This is why England created "Greece" as a country.
The Greek Govt. has done some impressive propaganda in the past 17 years, the only problem is that OnLy the Greek population bought it, the others know a bit of history.
On Kosovo, Kosovo has always been Serbian. The problem is that the Albanians have been uneducated and unemployed, which brought to high natality and eventually to crime which today is and will always be out of control.
The West once again does criminal activities. First attacks Serbia (Iraq), creates a NATO country (Kosovo) which will be used as launch pad for future attacks and installation of rockets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language#History

You may be a history professor but that doesn't necessarily mean you are a good history professor. Koine is a form of Greek.
Modern 'Macedonians' are Slavs. Ancient Macedonians were not Slavs. Period.

To shqiptar:

Do you really believe that Albanians in Macedonia prefe Macedonia over joining Kosovo or Albania?

To Johnny:

Then let's work on that multi-ethnic Serbia NOW! But don't change borders please. Kosovo is part of Serbia. Serbia has to change. A LOT. But so have the Kosovars.

By the way: if Kosovo, why not Tibet or Kurdistan.

Was/is Iraq a multi-ethnic society. And what about China?

Ahmet I,
No, we are Macedonians! But you wouldn't know would you? Funny how all of our neighbours deny our beingness with the express result that their own histories, cultures, heritages are enriched while ours depleted.

"To Johnny:

Then let's work on that multi-ethnic Serbia NOW! But don't change borders please. Kosovo is part of Serbia. Serbia has to change. A LOT. But so have the Kosovars.

By the way: if Kosovo, why not Tibet or Kurdistan.

Was/is Iraq a multi-ethnic society. And what about China?
(Ron, 25. August 2007 04:18)"

1. Let me start from the end. I have nothing against Tibet and Kurdistan. If they manage to rally the world around them like the Albanians did, then they should get their independence if that is what they want. However they should not profit from the blood that we Albanians spilled and use that as an argument for themselves.

2. Iraq still has the chance to remain a multi-ethnic country. In fact their constitution states that they are a federal country. If that constitution is applied then each ethnicity has its own part in the confederation. My opinion is that after Bush is gone we are going to see a Federal multi-ethnic Iraq.

3.When people are in a difficult position they pick the wrong analogies. Who has the power in this world makes the laws, and those laws are made to serve the strong and maintain the week. Even though we like it to be different,it doesn't work that way in reality. In this world China is strong, Serbia is week. So the analogy seems wrong to me. As usual then we have the same law that applies differently to different peoples. That is simply how it works. In an ideal world China would not be a communist country and people around the world would be fair. There would be no wars and no poverty. However we don't live in such a world so some analogies are not the best ones.

4. If the issue of Kosova/o was between Serbia and another slav country in the Balkans it would have been solved a long time ago. Chances are Serbia would have gotten rid of Kosova/o by its own will if that was the case.

5.In our history in the balkans the Albanians and the Serbs have spent most of their time as enemies and an enemy state of mind is imprinted in our peoples. This enemy state of mind has been interrupted by small periods of dubious collaboration among the two peoples. Therefore up to the 1999 it was possible to do the same and collaborate with each other if people in charge gave collaboration a chance. Serbia which was in charge had the chance since the Albanians had a pacifist like Rugova as their leader. Under these a circumstances it would have been possible to have a multiethnic modern Serbia like the one i described in my earlier post. It would have been similar but more developed than Macedonia. However the Serbs wasted that chance. The war in 1999 changed all the circumstances. Now we are back to an enemy state of mind. It will take decades, maybe more than a century for our people to go back to that collaboration even though they doubted the intentions of the other.
Only taking in consideration how our people think about each other I think it is enough reason for the two peoples to go their different ways and not be ruled by the other. The war changed everything and ruined a golden opportunity for a modern multi-ethnic Serbia.
The next best thing is a multi-ethnic Kosova/o, where the local Serbs are in charge of their own security have their own schools, universities, official language, institutions, hospitals, guaranteed seats in the parliament, and government.They govern themselves locally also. Basically the Kosova/o of the future will look like Macedonia with NATO and EU as watchdogs.

Really?, who gives a thought to what the cowardly Fyrom leadership thinks, the Albanians there already have their own defacto statelet ready to be partitioned off to join Kosovo when the time is right. They Listened to the EU politicians and have lost Macedonia.

The Ancient Macedonians were the inhabitants of Macedon in ancient times. Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians, whether they originally spoke a Greek dialect or a distinct language, belonged to the Koine Greek speaking population in Hellenistic times. After the 4th century BCE, the ancient Macedonians were universally considered to be Greek by their contemporaries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians

Who do you Serbs support in the conflict between FYROM and Greece? Your Orthodox brothers the 'Macedonians' or your Orthodox brothers the Greeks? Just so we know if the Greeks are doing the right thing by supporting Serbia.

" Western Macedonia an no-go area for non-albanians"!!! - Dragan what are you on about?
Have you ever been to Macedonia?

There is no limit to serbian propaganda

here we go the neighbours are getting nerveous,i just dont understand how can makedonia support ahtisari plan but not willing to do same for their albanian brothers, just dont know
zivela srbija....zoran

We support Serbia but our goverment is on the american payroll:-)

Anyway, we are on the same side with our Serbian
brothers;-)

I 100% dis-agree with the our government's position on the Kosovo issue, Kosovo is Serbian and always will be. Dragain Western Macedonia is not as bad as it seems the only cities are Tetovo and Gostivar whom are a majority of Albanians otherwise the rest is all populated by Macedonians. No chance the Albanians form over 25% of our poppulation, I guarantee you that.

Macedonia has realized that a multi-ethnic state will exist based on mutual respect. Serbia had a chance but instead got greedy and started ethnic clensing and genocide-therefore making enemies of non-serbs. This is why the Serbian dream of Kosova is over and done. Albanians will never be caught dead in any form in the same state as Serbia. In addition, Serbia should worry because Albanians are going to double their population in the next 30-50 years while serb numbers are declining. So, Serbia with dominating older population will be neighboring an increasing and a predominantly young and vibrant population of Kosova.
-The wise say: "Better give up Kosova peacefully while still maintaining the state of Serbia (excluding Kosova)than be overcome by Albanians." ...Unless, of course, they decide to import youth from Russia-oh yes, Russian population statistics are no better than those of serbs.
My dear friends, Macedonia will be a peaceful multi-ethnic state with nothing to worry. Albanians there have a university and are rapidly gaining equal status with Macedonians. Macedonia will survive.

Zoran, the Ahtisari Plan for Macedonia has a different name. Its called the Ohrid agreement.
Unlike the Serbs the Macedonians decided or were made not to go for all or nothing. This is why today the Albanians are part of the state and state institutions there. I don't think the average Albanian there has any problem being in the state of Macedonia just as long the Ohrid agreement is fulfilled, or in other words be treated as equal citizens of Macedonia.
Serbia had the same chance as Macedonia but ruined it itself. If it had played smartly there wouldn't even be a Kosova/o question today. There would be Albanians in the Serbian parliament, the Serbian government; and Albanian would be an official language in Kosova/o. That is how the modern Serbia would look like today. Instead Serbia opted for ethnic cleansing and now it finds itself to be cornered by the west. Of course as always Serbia is blaming everyone else but itself.

Although Macedonia officially maintains that ethnic Albanians form a quarter of her population, some estimates put is as high as over 40%. No wonder then that Skopje is worried.

Jack - I would like to support Macedonia but when their government makes ridiculous statements such as these, it makes supporting them impossible. It sounds like he is reading from a statement prepared for him by the US State Department. The Macedonian government is very myopic of they think that an independent Kosovo will not threaten their sovereignty. If Kosovo goes, so will western Macedonia - it is already a forbidden zone for anyone non-albanian anyways.
As for the name 'Macedonia', historically Macedonians are Hellenic people, not Slavs, and the present day Slavs that call themselves Macedonians have nothing to do with Alexander the Great. I am with the Greeks on this one. Greeks have been very good allies to Serbs.

By 2010 70% of all energy in the Balkans will be provided by Russian gas lines running through Serbia, Macedonia will depend on this energy very much, also one must remember that Macedonia exports to Serbia more than anywhere else in the World. And the Macedonian government would do will to realize that 80% of their population share much in common with Serbian people, any move that alienates the relationship between these two peoples will be felt by the Macedonian Government, their people won't sit still for this, especially because they have their own problems with Albanians in their country. It is Macedonia that loses for choosing to back a greater Albania and NOT Serbia.

here we go the neighbours are getting nerveous,i just dont understand how can makedonia support ahtisari plan but not willing to do same for their albanian brothers, just dont know
zivela srbija....zoran

It is no wonder, Skopje wants the Pandora box to remain close. Besides, they have to be in line with the EU since they have applied for EU and NATO membership. The Slav Macedonians know pretty well how precious is stability and peace the Ahtisari package guarantees.

Western Macedonia an no-go area for non-albanians"!!! - Dragan what are you on about?
Have you ever been to Macedonia?

There is no limit to serbian propaganda
(nikshala, 24. August 2007 16:51)

I'm gonna answer that for you because i grew up in Macedonia.

There are still some areas, especially villages, where Macdonian people or even officials are not welcome. There are whole Albanian populated villages where noone pays any utility bills and the officals don't dare to go in and collect the fees for fear of being shot dead. We couldn't live more divided lives than we already do, even if we tried. My opinion is that Albanians don't need the independence but integration into the comunties, they need to try to live with us, not against us!

To shqiptar:

Do you really believe that Albanians in Macedonia prefe Macedonia over joining Kosovo or Albania?

To Johnny:

Then let's work on that multi-ethnic Serbia NOW! But don't change borders please. Kosovo is part of Serbia. Serbia has to change. A LOT. But so have the Kosovars.

By the way: if Kosovo, why not Tibet or Kurdistan.

Was/is Iraq a multi-ethnic society. And what about China?

Ahmet I,
No, we are Macedonians! But you wouldn't know would you? Funny how all of our neighbours deny our beingness with the express result that their own histories, cultures, heritages are enriched while ours depleted.

Dragan, your statement that Macedonia is "Greek" is uninformed and political (intentionally!?). Macedonia has never been Greek, but has always been a distinct and separate entity. The ancient orators of the city states themselves claim this ad infinitum!

There are 2 theories, Slav migrations. This recent theory is proposed by the creators of modern Greece, the Germans.( Why do no Roman historians mention the so-called Slav migrations?) Second, the whole area is paleo-Slavic. IE; the ancient Macedonians and others were proto-Slavs. This second theory is fast overtaking the first. Finally, the Greeks have no proof!! DO you have any? Orther than that the Anc. Maks. were Hellenized. (Hellenism, is a state of consciousness, a set of ethical guidelines as an ideal for human behaviour, not an Ethnic identifier.)

Dragan, just becasue greeks have been old allies for serbia you are willing to dostord the truth and don't care if you lie. By the way Macedonians are Bulgarians and not helenicas (word meaning greek) as you claim. You are willing to say anything and everything even if it means lying.

Dragan, your statement that Macedonia is "Greek" is uninformed and political (intentionally!?). Macedonia has never been Greek, but has always been a distinct and separate entity. The ancient orators of the city states themselves claim this ad infinitum!

There are 2 theories, Slav migrations. This recent theory is proposed by the creators of modern Greece, the Germans.( Why do no Roman historians mention the so-called Slav migrations?) Second, the whole area is paleo-Slavic. IE; the ancient Macedonians and others were proto-Slavs. This second theory is fast overtaking the first. Finally, the Greeks have no proof!! DO you have any? Orther than that the Anc. Maks. were Hellenized. (Hellenism, is a state of consciousness, a set of ethical guidelines as an ideal for human behaviour, not an Ethnic identifier.)
(Dimitar, 25. August 2007 08:30)
Hellenized means turned into Greek, lingusitically assimilated by Greeks
As for your 'Paleo-Slavic theory' it's too ludicrous to even deserve debating.
When the Slavs came to Macedonia they found a Greek-speaking population i.e. GREEKS
Deal with it

The Ancient Macedonians were the inhabitants of Macedon in ancient times. Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians, whether they originally spoke a Greek dialect or a distinct language, belonged to the Koine Greek speaking population in Hellenistic times. After the 4th century BCE, the ancient Macedonians were universally considered to be Greek by their contemporaries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians

To my Greek Friends, I know this will hurt, but after all, I am a history professor.
Deal with this: Macedonians are Macedonian and Greeks are Greeks.
Greeks have nothing to do with Ancient Macedonians, the Macedonians do.
Alexandar was Macedonian not Greek.
Up until 1860 there was no such thing as "Greek" language. The Koine language was adopted by the English Govt which in turn told the Greek population "this is your language, use it!" This was done simply to stop Russian influence in the South Balkans. This is why England created "Greece" as a country.
The Greek Govt. has done some impressive propaganda in the past 17 years, the only problem is that OnLy the Greek population bought it, the others know a bit of history.
On Kosovo, Kosovo has always been Serbian. The problem is that the Albanians have been uneducated and unemployed, which brought to high natality and eventually to crime which today is and will always be out of control.
The West once again does criminal activities. First attacks Serbia (Iraq), creates a NATO country (Kosovo) which will be used as launch pad for future attacks and installation of rockets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language#History

You may be a history professor but that doesn't necessarily mean you are a good history professor. Koine is a form of Greek.
Modern 'Macedonians' are Slavs. Ancient Macedonians were not Slavs. Period.

"To Johnny:

Then let's work on that multi-ethnic Serbia NOW! But don't change borders please. Kosovo is part of Serbia. Serbia has to change. A LOT. But so have the Kosovars.

By the way: if Kosovo, why not Tibet or Kurdistan.

Was/is Iraq a multi-ethnic society. And what about China?
(Ron, 25. August 2007 04:18)"

1. Let me start from the end. I have nothing against Tibet and Kurdistan. If they manage to rally the world around them like the Albanians did, then they should get their independence if that is what they want. However they should not profit from the blood that we Albanians spilled and use that as an argument for themselves.

2. Iraq still has the chance to remain a multi-ethnic country. In fact their constitution states that they are a federal country. If that constitution is applied then each ethnicity has its own part in the confederation. My opinion is that after Bush is gone we are going to see a Federal multi-ethnic Iraq.

3.When people are in a difficult position they pick the wrong analogies. Who has the power in this world makes the laws, and those laws are made to serve the strong and maintain the week. Even though we like it to be different,it doesn't work that way in reality. In this world China is strong, Serbia is week. So the analogy seems wrong to me. As usual then we have the same law that applies differently to different peoples. That is simply how it works. In an ideal world China would not be a communist country and people around the world would be fair. There would be no wars and no poverty. However we don't live in such a world so some analogies are not the best ones.

4. If the issue of Kosova/o was between Serbia and another slav country in the Balkans it would have been solved a long time ago. Chances are Serbia would have gotten rid of Kosova/o by its own will if that was the case.

5.In our history in the balkans the Albanians and the Serbs have spent most of their time as enemies and an enemy state of mind is imprinted in our peoples. This enemy state of mind has been interrupted by small periods of dubious collaboration among the two peoples. Therefore up to the 1999 it was possible to do the same and collaborate with each other if people in charge gave collaboration a chance. Serbia which was in charge had the chance since the Albanians had a pacifist like Rugova as their leader. Under these a circumstances it would have been possible to have a multiethnic modern Serbia like the one i described in my earlier post. It would have been similar but more developed than Macedonia. However the Serbs wasted that chance. The war in 1999 changed all the circumstances. Now we are back to an enemy state of mind. It will take decades, maybe more than a century for our people to go back to that collaboration even though they doubted the intentions of the other.
Only taking in consideration how our people think about each other I think it is enough reason for the two peoples to go their different ways and not be ruled by the other. The war changed everything and ruined a golden opportunity for a modern multi-ethnic Serbia.
The next best thing is a multi-ethnic Kosova/o, where the local Serbs are in charge of their own security have their own schools, universities, official language, institutions, hospitals, guaranteed seats in the parliament, and government.They govern themselves locally also. Basically the Kosova/o of the future will look like Macedonia with NATO and EU as watchdogs.

Really?, who gives a thought to what the cowardly Fyrom leadership thinks, the Albanians there already have their own defacto statelet ready to be partitioned off to join Kosovo when the time is right. They Listened to the EU politicians and have lost Macedonia.