"Fate of gov't could depend on Kosovo"

Regardless of what some people may think to the contrary, Serbia is to the Balkans, what Germany was to Central Europe - the keystone. A democratic Serbia will provide the critical stability and collective development of all surrounding states. A non-democratic Serbia will pull Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia, Croatia, Bosnia, and even Romania down with it. Therefore it is absolutely imperative that the international community does not dismiss Serbian interests in the same way it did during the 1990s. If we've learned anything, it's that Serbia will try to get what it wants regardless. Additionally, bringing Serbian interests within the concert of Europe lessens their need to seek Russian support. Serbia is far too important for the West to ignore.

You do realise he is trying to say there will be war if unilateral independence is declared?

"If Serbia is not willing to become trully democratic and a constructive member of the EU than she will be left behind like a kind of reservation or a second Belarus."

You're absolutely right about that, Joe. There's no denying that radical nationalism will always be an impediment to democratic reform, and the Germany economic miracle I seemed to have alluded to in my first comment, attested to that fact. Yet we also need to understand that post-war Germany was not continously punished and humiliated. They lost their eastern territories, they had Nuremburg, but then they were fully integrated into NATO. Serbia deserves no less and that their leaders need to make Faustian bargains with Moscow only endangers their democratization. So what I mean is that IF Serbia continues political maturation, like Germany, it will be beneficial for all.

Therefore, I think we would both agree that it is in the best interest for a radical-national coalition NOT to form in Belgrade. We want a Serbia to be like Germany in 1945, NOT in 1918.

Who will be the first one to scrutinize this well educated and spot on commentary, witch is pointing its finger towards truth and nothing but? Anyway with slight hint of war rhetoric being a polished statement not to upset Dictator Kustunica but the point was clearly made. The future should be EU and great co-operation with neighbouring country's. You will have Kosovo as a new neighbour don't forget!

To B92:

Why are my comments always being censored. I am not using fowl language or degrading anyone. I thought this forum was set up for us to express our point of you.
If the truth hurts, then why have this.

"So I wished nothing better than a coalition between Kostunica and the radicals."

And sadly for you Joe, but thankfully for the rest of us, such a coalition will not manifest. As much as you like to paint Serbia as this radical hotbed of nationalism brimming near overflow, and as much as you somehow need to believe Serbs are this group of unintellingent brutes to make yourself feel morally better, I'll put money on the prediction that the Western world that you seem to have every confidence will "deal" with Serbia accordingly will, actually continue to work with Belgrade and do its hardest to bring into the EU. They have finally come to realize than an isolated and bitter Serbia does no one good. Punishing Serbia only punishes the larger Balkan region. Therefore your Cold War mentality of Europe is thankfully no longer valid. Serbia will continue to have a significant influence over Kosovo after independence. Even if nothing other than the minimal stipulations of the Ahtisaari Plan are codified (and again, the West is firmly committed to this), Belgrade will enjoy numerous parallel links to many K-Serb institutions, municipalities and monasteries. Why you constantly feel the need to always think in absolutes is beyond my comprehension, but to each their own.

Tell you what. If you're right and I'm wrong in the end, contact me, and I'll buy you a Coke. The staple of American beverages.

Titanic,

First, I'm not a Serb. You must be new to this site.

Second, the majority of Serbs polled have consistantly been in favor of extradicting Mladic to the Hague, and with the exception of SRS and SPS supporters who see him as a hero, the rest of Serbia see him as one man holding the entire country hostage to international sanctions. If you believe a number of supporters at the Guca music festival as somehow indicative of the entire national attitude, I'd recommend you also look at the government-sponsored Thompson concert in Croata a few months ago where neo-Ustashism was visible for many to see.

I fail to see where you believe Serbia is a "failed" state without coming up with any facts and figures to support your claim. Is it an economic powerhouse? No. Is it a political power? Not likely, but you would do well to examine geopolitics beyond the borders of your own municipality to see that a) Serbia is no longer the Milosevic regime it once was, and b) the West is just as eager to integrate Serbia into the European system as Kosovo. Serbia still has a way to go, no doubt, but Europe, and the Balkans in particular, cannot afford another nationalist at the helm in Belgrade. That is what makes Serbian democratic consolidation and stability so crucial,and so important.

There we go, this is the official response from the DS I've been waitng for.
I've stated in prior threads the DS and DSS are not united on this issue, and perhaps on many others. The ball is in Kostunica's court. He should now form his "natural" alliance with Nikolic. Their policies are almost identical, if not, Kostunica has now crossed over to the SRS' turf. They either should call a vote of non confidence and have a reelection, or Kostunica should just join ranks with the Socialists and Radicals. I for one, never had
any confidence in Tadic. I recall his election platform speech where he proceeded to "prepare" the Serbs for the eventual loss of Kosovo. This is absurd coming from a potential president. What is very crucial is the support of the Russians.

cleve "You do realise he is trying to say there will be war if unilateral independence is declared?" You think he is threatening with violence?
Dont be redicolus man. NATO IS THERE DONT FORGET ;)

titanic....

calling Serbia a "failed state" and, what is even more absurd Russia a "quasi-state" ...only shows your state of mind!

at least in the capital of that "failed state" 100 000 Albanians live without being harmed...while in Kosovo, the southern serbian Province, don´t forget that, the few remaining Serbs who were not cleansed away yet by albanian brutality, can´t leave their ghetto-like village´s.

so much for "failed state", buddy...

I am quite sure, all those UNMIK and KFOR-guys who see what is going on there, will be very easily able to tell others WHO is resorting to plain violence and vandalism.

we could all see who that was, in the past 8 years.

unbelievable, that someone dares to speak of failed states who himself desperately wishes to get a state of his own...

The most important benefit for Serbia from the ongoing "negotiations" is to realize there is no place for her in "the West". EU is not where we belong.

Russia is our natural ally and we should forge the alliance with her. We should not join NATO gang, we should be a member of Shanghai Cooperation Organization.

The fact that a fair proportion of the population will undoubtedly get swept up in the rhetoric and go along with it won't do Serbia any favours either.

Paul,
Everybody would agree with you in one thing: Kalashnikov Kostunica always reasoned and acted like the radicals. He is a radical. So if finaly he would go into a coalision with them that would be something natural. The current charade would stop. The Western world would clearly see that it has to do with Milosevic type people - beligerant and not democratic - who can not be trusted in any way. That would be the final nail in the coffin of Serbian dreams about Kosovo. So I wished nothing better than a coalition between Kostunica and the radicals.

In all seriousness, most of the Serbs here have no clue what's at stake with threats such as the above.
Kostunica was never really a bright leader and mostly a biased and nationalist speaker on legal and political issues in Serbia. But he is not person who takes Serbia's survival and national future and its prosperity with any serious intent. If he thinks this is all a game, he will be sorely and harshly awakened by what's in store for him and his people if they continue on this path of obstruction and destabilization. He and his party better think twice before uttering another public word on the Kosova Independence issue in front of him.

Joe, I don't believe we share the same point of view. Watch,
wait and see what happens. When the Serbs were compliant and submissive like the US wanted us to be, Kosovo was on the brink of departure. Enter into the equation the Russians, and assertiveness
and defiance by the DSS, and look, were already considering partition. Form a coalition between the Radicals, Socialists, DSS, and
let's not forget the Russians,
and the US will abandon every dream of creating a Nato state in Serbia.

Mike,

A tangential argument full of impressive contradictions.

Quickly:

A. Serbia cannot ever be compared to Germany be it Weimar or National Socialist. For God's sake, if anything, it is the Serbs' universal lack of organization and penchant for internal conflicts that have condemned their lot to poverty and isolation throughout their history. Case in point: if Kosova was so important for its religious and cultural significance, why is it that Belgrade's Saint Sava Temple (a holy project whose functional specifications were laid out in 1895 which then went on to finally begin construction in 1935) STILL continues to remain unfinished to this day? Have you ever been in there? There's a bullet hole in Jesus's forehead which still has still not been removed from WWII; just look up to see it! Can you imagine any willed German comfortable with such a pathetic situation like this and still consider themselves the epicentre of their region? You're obviously blinded by a severe bias, especially in light of the fact that Germany was THE European economic power, but Serbia? Well, throughout this period it did raise a lot of pigs and raspberries while the Slovenes and Croats worked hard to become the most Westernized ex-Yugoslav states whose ability to semi-subsidize the whole stinking fantasy of FR Yugoslavia only lasted as long as the foreign grants kept coming in. Not exactly a compelling argument yours?

B. Sure, the majority of Serbs are in favor of extraditing Mladic. If that were the case, why was Mladic receiving a full pension from the Republic of Serbia only up until a few years ago? And also freely available to chat over Turkish coffee on Knez Mihailova any old time? Indeed, the Mladic and Karadzic T-shirts that were selling like hotcakes at the Guca gypsy festival were never removed or banned from being sold! How's that possible?

C. Kostunica consistently claims that Guca is Serbia i.e. the true face of Serbia. I could not agree more with him. But then again, he turns around and then states Kosova is the cultural cradle of Serbia even though Saint Sava is a unfinished and dusty (from the inside) some 100+ years after its initial conception? have you even considered that the majority of Serbs polled will outright admit that Kosova is lost and that they have never been there to visit during the course of their tired lives?
Isn't that as compelling an argument as any ... considering the disconnect between ordinary Serbs and their manipulative politicos? Hence the term: failed state.

D. The West is not as eager to integrate Serbia into the mainstream as you feebly hope for. As a matter of fact, it's already been stated by Germany (of all countries) that once Croatia gets in, all bets are off for the Balkan region given the ongoing lack of overall development and internal chaos. (Once again: nothing at all like your German comparison.) As a matter of fact, both the EU and US simply don't want to see another autistic war being waged for the sake of the Serbs' highly overinflated opinion of themselves given the hard facts on the ground.

E. Like I already stated, Croatia is off to the races. Serbia remains unstable and teetering on reinstating a version of that good old Nacertanje-styled jingoism (i.e. much worse than that which is currently in power.) Even though the majority of Serbs apparently back the extradition of Mladic (and what about the other 4 criminals??) and they also see Kosova as lost/gone. And remember when Nikolic became Speaker for what--3 days? Why was he replaced so quickly? Because the politicos in Belgrade knew all along that the "best" way to isolate and further hollow out Serbia is through the Radicals--Serbia will essentially implode well before it gets a chance to try and attack its more advanced neighbors (i.e. politically or economically.) It's in no ones interest to see Serbia become a parking lot of sorts, but then again, this is essentially what the Soviets did to those countries that fell behind their Iron Curtain. And no one really cared to change it for a long long time.

Good luck with it...

Ah, I love a good argument Titanic. Let me address your points one by one:

A. "Serbia cannot ever be compared to Germany be it Weimar or National Socialist."

My comparison of Serbia to Germany has little to do with economic factors and more with geographical. Key states that are politically unstable produce fears of uncertainties with its neighbors. One state rearming and militarizing will provoke neighboring countries to do the same. Even as late as 1992 the actions of Germany were seen as crucial influences to Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and even France. For all its unorganized mess you say Serbia is (and yes, I have been to Serbia, Belgrade, and the Catherdral of St. Sava), it is still noteworthy that Serbia can make or break regional stability in the Balkans. Even though Croatia is in a far better position economically today, it can still be influenced by neighborhood effects from its biggest regional competitor.

B. "Sure, the majority of Serbs are in favor of extraditing Mladic. If that were the case, why was Mladic receiving a full pension from the Republic of Serbia only up until a few years ago?"

You cannot blame that on the Serb people who had no control over that. Making this faulty connection is about as weak as saying Americans support torturing inmates and terrorists at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib because our government does, and condones it. The selling of T-shirts is also a faulty claim to collective thinking. Gotovina T-shirts are still hot items in many places in Croatia, yet you fail to make that connection with Croatian politics. The wearing of apparel is a far cry from taking up a gun an killing someone. I've seen dozens of T-shirts in the US calling for the assassination of President Bush.

C. "Kostunica consistently claims that Guca is Serbia i.e. the true face of Serbia. I could not agree more with him. But then again, he turns around and then states Kosova is the cultural cradle of Serbia"

News Flash: A state leader making the claim that "X is the true face of " is a typical thing for leaders to say when they are addressing an audience there. President Bush frequently cites the various "true" faces of America, be in in Texas, Colorado, New York, Philadephia, or even Florida. It's perfectly fine to have many "faces" of a country, and in Serbia's case, Kostunica is right: Guca is one of many: Kosovo, Belgrade, Petrovaradin, Orasac, etc. Why is St. Sava's still incomplete? Ever hear of Tito? The whole construction project was halted during his reign and did not resume until the late 1980s. You might have also heard of these little annoying things in the 1990s called "international sanctions". That can kind of delay construction work too. Using the huge catherdral of St. Sava as an indicator of a failed state is meaningless.

D. "The West is not as eager to integrate Serbia into the mainstream as you feebly hope for."

Then please explain to me why the West is practically bending over backwards to get them into the EU, even at the point of overlooking the fact Mladic is not in stripes? Explain to me why the West is so eager to have a pro-Western leader in power in Belgrade, and not someone like Nikolic? No Titanic, the West desperately wants Serbia into the EU because that solidifies the whole of the Balkans. In the infamous words of Richard Holbrooke, clearly no friend to Serbia: "If Serbia chooses Europe over Kosovo, the whole of the Balkans will get into Europe." No one wants any war, "autistic" or not, and I highly doubt your predicition will manifest.

E. "Like I already stated, Croatia is off to the races. Serbia remains unstable and teetering on reinstating a version of that good old Nacertanje-styled jingoism"

Croatia "solved" its national problem once it expelled Serbs from Knin-Krajina. They have no need for any notions of irredentism since most of Croatia is all Croat, and only the die hard nationalists are still after Hercegovina. Serbia on the other hand is currently going through a crisis of its own territory: a crisis that any state - yes even the docile Croats - would equally answer if placed in similar conditions. In spite of that, Serbs back the extradition of Mladic and everyone else (the surveys include all remaining war criminals) and while the vast majority of Serbs realize Kosovo is gone, they are not going to turn a blind eye to ongoing problems there.

And what about Nikolic? He was speaker for three days, and stepped down without any chaos or bloodshed. As much as you try to protray Serbia as some basket case, the SRS handled itself in a manner far more "democratic" than the DSS has been acting, so I fail to see what you're trying to prove there.

Titanic, I am not in any way suggesting Serbia is some veritable Switzerland waiting to blossom. It clearly has problems and unsolved issues from the 1990s and today. Most people do not trust their government and have little faith in their elected leaders. Yet this is not reason to call Serbia a "failed state". A "failed state" is one in which government is completely dysfunctional, sovereignty is highly challenged, and laws simply do not work because those in charge abuse their privileges. The only place such variables could possible count is towards Kosovo. The rest of Serbia is functioning like any other state. You seem to accuse me of having a bias towards Serbia, yet your counterarguments were full or normative statements and one-sides points that, while not completely untrue, were still enough to cause one to retort.

I appreciate your detailed responses and questions, yet I still firmly disagree on many of the claims you've made. It has less to do with a sense of bias, and more to do with how one appropriately understands the term "failed state" Ascribing Goldhagen-type criteria of pathological penchants for nationalism and brutality on an entire group of people is faulty and is hardly taken seriously in academic circles.

Thanks

"Regardless of what some people may think to the contrary, Serbia is to the Balkans, what Germany was to Central Europe - the keystone. A democratic Serbia will provide the critical stability and collective development of all surrounding states."

Sorry Mike. Serbia is essentially a failed state whose credibility is further weakened by its dependence (for vestiges of prestige) on quasi-states like Russia etc.

If what you were saying was true, you would have aprehended you war criminals (rather than celebrated them at the Guca gyspy-fest); furthermore, not only would Croatia NOT have gotten as close to the EU as it already HAS in so short a period of time, but Kosova would never have been targeted as the next state in line for independence relative to Serbia's most excellent democratic credentials.

Mike,

Don't exagerate the importance of shranken Serbia so much. Without Kosovo in the last 8 years it is a small country of some 7,5 millions impoverished inhabitants, a little bit bigger than the old Pashaluk of Belgrade. To compare it in regional importance with Germany - the economic engine of not only Central-Europe but of the whole EU - is absolutely ridiculous. Even in the immediate eighborhood Croatia - with a booming tourist industry and expected tourist revenue of 7 billions dollars this year - start to bypass Serbia in many way. I visited Croatia many times. I admire the hard working Croates in many way. They accomplished a small economic miracle in few years just like Germans after WWII and all this without a Marshall plan. Romania, the biggest country of the region with 22 millions inhabitants has a terrific growth and moving fast. Even Bulgaria is catching up with a fast pace. All these countries show Serbia that it is not possible to live by water and radical nationalism alone. If Serbia is not willing to become trully democratic and a constructive member of the EU than she will be left behind like a kind of reservation or a second Belarus.

To Marko Cvetanovic (Cvele),
I assure you that there won't be any war. Don't be afraid, instead be be back in school in September, because you desperately needs to learn. For eg. you will learn at geography class that from beginning of 2008, Serbia will have a new neighbour, that's Kosova.
Bon Courage.

“We should direct all our efforts towards winning the support of as many influential states as we can when it comes to Kosovo’s future status settlement,” Kolundžija said."

Not only do I agree with this woman but I support her arguments.

What she is suggesting is stopping this belgrade holding grudges and threatening other countries to not recognize Republic of Kosova. I think that this politician is ready to recognize Kosova as a neighbor country, Kosovars welcome her statements.

Who will be the first one to scrutinize this well educated and spot on commentary, witch is pointing its finger towards truth and nothing but? Anyway with slight hint of war rhetoric being a polished statement not to upset Dictator Kustunica but the point was clearly made. The future should be EU and great co-operation with neighbouring country's. You will have Kosovo as a new neighbour don't forget!

cleve "You do realise he is trying to say there will be war if unilateral independence is declared?" You think he is threatening with violence?
Dont be redicolus man. NATO IS THERE DONT FORGET ;)

Paul,
Everybody would agree with you in one thing: Kalashnikov Kostunica always reasoned and acted like the radicals. He is a radical. So if finaly he would go into a coalision with them that would be something natural. The current charade would stop. The Western world would clearly see that it has to do with Milosevic type people - beligerant and not democratic - who can not be trusted in any way. That would be the final nail in the coffin of Serbian dreams about Kosovo. So I wished nothing better than a coalition between Kostunica and the radicals.

Mike,

Don't exagerate the importance of shranken Serbia so much. Without Kosovo in the last 8 years it is a small country of some 7,5 millions impoverished inhabitants, a little bit bigger than the old Pashaluk of Belgrade. To compare it in regional importance with Germany - the economic engine of not only Central-Europe but of the whole EU - is absolutely ridiculous. Even in the immediate eighborhood Croatia - with a booming tourist industry and expected tourist revenue of 7 billions dollars this year - start to bypass Serbia in many way. I visited Croatia many times. I admire the hard working Croates in many way. They accomplished a small economic miracle in few years just like Germans after WWII and all this without a Marshall plan. Romania, the biggest country of the region with 22 millions inhabitants has a terrific growth and moving fast. Even Bulgaria is catching up with a fast pace. All these countries show Serbia that it is not possible to live by water and radical nationalism alone. If Serbia is not willing to become trully democratic and a constructive member of the EU than she will be left behind like a kind of reservation or a second Belarus.

You do realise he is trying to say there will be war if unilateral independence is declared?

"Regardless of what some people may think to the contrary, Serbia is to the Balkans, what Germany was to Central Europe - the keystone. A democratic Serbia will provide the critical stability and collective development of all surrounding states."

Sorry Mike. Serbia is essentially a failed state whose credibility is further weakened by its dependence (for vestiges of prestige) on quasi-states like Russia etc.

If what you were saying was true, you would have aprehended you war criminals (rather than celebrated them at the Guca gyspy-fest); furthermore, not only would Croatia NOT have gotten as close to the EU as it already HAS in so short a period of time, but Kosova would never have been targeted as the next state in line for independence relative to Serbia's most excellent democratic credentials.

In all seriousness, most of the Serbs here have no clue what's at stake with threats such as the above.
Kostunica was never really a bright leader and mostly a biased and nationalist speaker on legal and political issues in Serbia. But he is not person who takes Serbia's survival and national future and its prosperity with any serious intent. If he thinks this is all a game, he will be sorely and harshly awakened by what's in store for him and his people if they continue on this path of obstruction and destabilization. He and his party better think twice before uttering another public word on the Kosova Independence issue in front of him.

“We should direct all our efforts towards winning the support of as many influential states as we can when it comes to Kosovo’s future status settlement,” Kolundžija said."

Not only do I agree with this woman but I support her arguments.

What she is suggesting is stopping this belgrade holding grudges and threatening other countries to not recognize Republic of Kosova. I think that this politician is ready to recognize Kosova as a neighbor country, Kosovars welcome her statements.

Mike,

A tangential argument full of impressive contradictions.

Quickly:

A. Serbia cannot ever be compared to Germany be it Weimar or National Socialist. For God's sake, if anything, it is the Serbs' universal lack of organization and penchant for internal conflicts that have condemned their lot to poverty and isolation throughout their history. Case in point: if Kosova was so important for its religious and cultural significance, why is it that Belgrade's Saint Sava Temple (a holy project whose functional specifications were laid out in 1895 which then went on to finally begin construction in 1935) STILL continues to remain unfinished to this day? Have you ever been in there? There's a bullet hole in Jesus's forehead which still has still not been removed from WWII; just look up to see it! Can you imagine any willed German comfortable with such a pathetic situation like this and still consider themselves the epicentre of their region? You're obviously blinded by a severe bias, especially in light of the fact that Germany was THE European economic power, but Serbia? Well, throughout this period it did raise a lot of pigs and raspberries while the Slovenes and Croats worked hard to become the most Westernized ex-Yugoslav states whose ability to semi-subsidize the whole stinking fantasy of FR Yugoslavia only lasted as long as the foreign grants kept coming in. Not exactly a compelling argument yours?

B. Sure, the majority of Serbs are in favor of extraditing Mladic. If that were the case, why was Mladic receiving a full pension from the Republic of Serbia only up until a few years ago? And also freely available to chat over Turkish coffee on Knez Mihailova any old time? Indeed, the Mladic and Karadzic T-shirts that were selling like hotcakes at the Guca gypsy festival were never removed or banned from being sold! How's that possible?

C. Kostunica consistently claims that Guca is Serbia i.e. the true face of Serbia. I could not agree more with him. But then again, he turns around and then states Kosova is the cultural cradle of Serbia even though Saint Sava is a unfinished and dusty (from the inside) some 100+ years after its initial conception? have you even considered that the majority of Serbs polled will outright admit that Kosova is lost and that they have never been there to visit during the course of their tired lives?
Isn't that as compelling an argument as any ... considering the disconnect between ordinary Serbs and their manipulative politicos? Hence the term: failed state.

D. The West is not as eager to integrate Serbia into the mainstream as you feebly hope for. As a matter of fact, it's already been stated by Germany (of all countries) that once Croatia gets in, all bets are off for the Balkan region given the ongoing lack of overall development and internal chaos. (Once again: nothing at all like your German comparison.) As a matter of fact, both the EU and US simply don't want to see another autistic war being waged for the sake of the Serbs' highly overinflated opinion of themselves given the hard facts on the ground.

E. Like I already stated, Croatia is off to the races. Serbia remains unstable and teetering on reinstating a version of that good old Nacertanje-styled jingoism (i.e. much worse than that which is currently in power.) Even though the majority of Serbs apparently back the extradition of Mladic (and what about the other 4 criminals??) and they also see Kosova as lost/gone. And remember when Nikolic became Speaker for what--3 days? Why was he replaced so quickly? Because the politicos in Belgrade knew all along that the "best" way to isolate and further hollow out Serbia is through the Radicals--Serbia will essentially implode well before it gets a chance to try and attack its more advanced neighbors (i.e. politically or economically.) It's in no ones interest to see Serbia become a parking lot of sorts, but then again, this is essentially what the Soviets did to those countries that fell behind their Iron Curtain. And no one really cared to change it for a long long time.

Good luck with it...

The fact that a fair proportion of the population will undoubtedly get swept up in the rhetoric and go along with it won't do Serbia any favours either.

Regardless of what some people may think to the contrary, Serbia is to the Balkans, what Germany was to Central Europe - the keystone. A democratic Serbia will provide the critical stability and collective development of all surrounding states. A non-democratic Serbia will pull Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia, Croatia, Bosnia, and even Romania down with it. Therefore it is absolutely imperative that the international community does not dismiss Serbian interests in the same way it did during the 1990s. If we've learned anything, it's that Serbia will try to get what it wants regardless. Additionally, bringing Serbian interests within the concert of Europe lessens their need to seek Russian support. Serbia is far too important for the West to ignore.

There we go, this is the official response from the DS I've been waitng for.
I've stated in prior threads the DS and DSS are not united on this issue, and perhaps on many others. The ball is in Kostunica's court. He should now form his "natural" alliance with Nikolic. Their policies are almost identical, if not, Kostunica has now crossed over to the SRS' turf. They either should call a vote of non confidence and have a reelection, or Kostunica should just join ranks with the Socialists and Radicals. I for one, never had
any confidence in Tadic. I recall his election platform speech where he proceeded to "prepare" the Serbs for the eventual loss of Kosovo. This is absurd coming from a potential president. What is very crucial is the support of the Russians.

To B92:

Why are my comments always being censored. I am not using fowl language or degrading anyone. I thought this forum was set up for us to express our point of you.
If the truth hurts, then why have this.

"So I wished nothing better than a coalition between Kostunica and the radicals."

And sadly for you Joe, but thankfully for the rest of us, such a coalition will not manifest. As much as you like to paint Serbia as this radical hotbed of nationalism brimming near overflow, and as much as you somehow need to believe Serbs are this group of unintellingent brutes to make yourself feel morally better, I'll put money on the prediction that the Western world that you seem to have every confidence will "deal" with Serbia accordingly will, actually continue to work with Belgrade and do its hardest to bring into the EU. They have finally come to realize than an isolated and bitter Serbia does no one good. Punishing Serbia only punishes the larger Balkan region. Therefore your Cold War mentality of Europe is thankfully no longer valid. Serbia will continue to have a significant influence over Kosovo after independence. Even if nothing other than the minimal stipulations of the Ahtisaari Plan are codified (and again, the West is firmly committed to this), Belgrade will enjoy numerous parallel links to many K-Serb institutions, municipalities and monasteries. Why you constantly feel the need to always think in absolutes is beyond my comprehension, but to each their own.

Tell you what. If you're right and I'm wrong in the end, contact me, and I'll buy you a Coke. The staple of American beverages.

Titanic,

First, I'm not a Serb. You must be new to this site.

Second, the majority of Serbs polled have consistantly been in favor of extradicting Mladic to the Hague, and with the exception of SRS and SPS supporters who see him as a hero, the rest of Serbia see him as one man holding the entire country hostage to international sanctions. If you believe a number of supporters at the Guca music festival as somehow indicative of the entire national attitude, I'd recommend you also look at the government-sponsored Thompson concert in Croata a few months ago where neo-Ustashism was visible for many to see.

I fail to see where you believe Serbia is a "failed" state without coming up with any facts and figures to support your claim. Is it an economic powerhouse? No. Is it a political power? Not likely, but you would do well to examine geopolitics beyond the borders of your own municipality to see that a) Serbia is no longer the Milosevic regime it once was, and b) the West is just as eager to integrate Serbia into the European system as Kosovo. Serbia still has a way to go, no doubt, but Europe, and the Balkans in particular, cannot afford another nationalist at the helm in Belgrade. That is what makes Serbian democratic consolidation and stability so crucial,and so important.

"If Serbia is not willing to become trully democratic and a constructive member of the EU than she will be left behind like a kind of reservation or a second Belarus."

You're absolutely right about that, Joe. There's no denying that radical nationalism will always be an impediment to democratic reform, and the Germany economic miracle I seemed to have alluded to in my first comment, attested to that fact. Yet we also need to understand that post-war Germany was not continously punished and humiliated. They lost their eastern territories, they had Nuremburg, but then they were fully integrated into NATO. Serbia deserves no less and that their leaders need to make Faustian bargains with Moscow only endangers their democratization. So what I mean is that IF Serbia continues political maturation, like Germany, it will be beneficial for all.

Therefore, I think we would both agree that it is in the best interest for a radical-national coalition NOT to form in Belgrade. We want a Serbia to be like Germany in 1945, NOT in 1918.

Joe, I don't believe we share the same point of view. Watch,
wait and see what happens. When the Serbs were compliant and submissive like the US wanted us to be, Kosovo was on the brink of departure. Enter into the equation the Russians, and assertiveness
and defiance by the DSS, and look, were already considering partition. Form a coalition between the Radicals, Socialists, DSS, and
let's not forget the Russians,
and the US will abandon every dream of creating a Nato state in Serbia.

titanic....

calling Serbia a "failed state" and, what is even more absurd Russia a "quasi-state" ...only shows your state of mind!

at least in the capital of that "failed state" 100 000 Albanians live without being harmed...while in Kosovo, the southern serbian Province, don´t forget that, the few remaining Serbs who were not cleansed away yet by albanian brutality, can´t leave their ghetto-like village´s.

so much for "failed state", buddy...

I am quite sure, all those UNMIK and KFOR-guys who see what is going on there, will be very easily able to tell others WHO is resorting to plain violence and vandalism.

we could all see who that was, in the past 8 years.

unbelievable, that someone dares to speak of failed states who himself desperately wishes to get a state of his own...

The most important benefit for Serbia from the ongoing "negotiations" is to realize there is no place for her in "the West". EU is not where we belong.

Russia is our natural ally and we should forge the alliance with her. We should not join NATO gang, we should be a member of Shanghai Cooperation Organization.

Ah, I love a good argument Titanic. Let me address your points one by one:

A. "Serbia cannot ever be compared to Germany be it Weimar or National Socialist."

My comparison of Serbia to Germany has little to do with economic factors and more with geographical. Key states that are politically unstable produce fears of uncertainties with its neighbors. One state rearming and militarizing will provoke neighboring countries to do the same. Even as late as 1992 the actions of Germany were seen as crucial influences to Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and even France. For all its unorganized mess you say Serbia is (and yes, I have been to Serbia, Belgrade, and the Catherdral of St. Sava), it is still noteworthy that Serbia can make or break regional stability in the Balkans. Even though Croatia is in a far better position economically today, it can still be influenced by neighborhood effects from its biggest regional competitor.

B. "Sure, the majority of Serbs are in favor of extraditing Mladic. If that were the case, why was Mladic receiving a full pension from the Republic of Serbia only up until a few years ago?"

You cannot blame that on the Serb people who had no control over that. Making this faulty connection is about as weak as saying Americans support torturing inmates and terrorists at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib because our government does, and condones it. The selling of T-shirts is also a faulty claim to collective thinking. Gotovina T-shirts are still hot items in many places in Croatia, yet you fail to make that connection with Croatian politics. The wearing of apparel is a far cry from taking up a gun an killing someone. I've seen dozens of T-shirts in the US calling for the assassination of President Bush.

C. "Kostunica consistently claims that Guca is Serbia i.e. the true face of Serbia. I could not agree more with him. But then again, he turns around and then states Kosova is the cultural cradle of Serbia"

News Flash: A state leader making the claim that "X is the true face of " is a typical thing for leaders to say when they are addressing an audience there. President Bush frequently cites the various "true" faces of America, be in in Texas, Colorado, New York, Philadephia, or even Florida. It's perfectly fine to have many "faces" of a country, and in Serbia's case, Kostunica is right: Guca is one of many: Kosovo, Belgrade, Petrovaradin, Orasac, etc. Why is St. Sava's still incomplete? Ever hear of Tito? The whole construction project was halted during his reign and did not resume until the late 1980s. You might have also heard of these little annoying things in the 1990s called "international sanctions". That can kind of delay construction work too. Using the huge catherdral of St. Sava as an indicator of a failed state is meaningless.

D. "The West is not as eager to integrate Serbia into the mainstream as you feebly hope for."

Then please explain to me why the West is practically bending over backwards to get them into the EU, even at the point of overlooking the fact Mladic is not in stripes? Explain to me why the West is so eager to have a pro-Western leader in power in Belgrade, and not someone like Nikolic? No Titanic, the West desperately wants Serbia into the EU because that solidifies the whole of the Balkans. In the infamous words of Richard Holbrooke, clearly no friend to Serbia: "If Serbia chooses Europe over Kosovo, the whole of the Balkans will get into Europe." No one wants any war, "autistic" or not, and I highly doubt your predicition will manifest.

E. "Like I already stated, Croatia is off to the races. Serbia remains unstable and teetering on reinstating a version of that good old Nacertanje-styled jingoism"

Croatia "solved" its national problem once it expelled Serbs from Knin-Krajina. They have no need for any notions of irredentism since most of Croatia is all Croat, and only the die hard nationalists are still after Hercegovina. Serbia on the other hand is currently going through a crisis of its own territory: a crisis that any state - yes even the docile Croats - would equally answer if placed in similar conditions. In spite of that, Serbs back the extradition of Mladic and everyone else (the surveys include all remaining war criminals) and while the vast majority of Serbs realize Kosovo is gone, they are not going to turn a blind eye to ongoing problems there.

And what about Nikolic? He was speaker for three days, and stepped down without any chaos or bloodshed. As much as you try to protray Serbia as some basket case, the SRS handled itself in a manner far more "democratic" than the DSS has been acting, so I fail to see what you're trying to prove there.

Titanic, I am not in any way suggesting Serbia is some veritable Switzerland waiting to blossom. It clearly has problems and unsolved issues from the 1990s and today. Most people do not trust their government and have little faith in their elected leaders. Yet this is not reason to call Serbia a "failed state". A "failed state" is one in which government is completely dysfunctional, sovereignty is highly challenged, and laws simply do not work because those in charge abuse their privileges. The only place such variables could possible count is towards Kosovo. The rest of Serbia is functioning like any other state. You seem to accuse me of having a bias towards Serbia, yet your counterarguments were full or normative statements and one-sides points that, while not completely untrue, were still enough to cause one to retort.

I appreciate your detailed responses and questions, yet I still firmly disagree on many of the claims you've made. It has less to do with a sense of bias, and more to do with how one appropriately understands the term "failed state" Ascribing Goldhagen-type criteria of pathological penchants for nationalism and brutality on an entire group of people is faulty and is hardly taken seriously in academic circles.

Thanks

To Marko Cvetanovic (Cvele),
I assure you that there won't be any war. Don't be afraid, instead be be back in school in September, because you desperately needs to learn. For eg. you will learn at geography class that from beginning of 2008, Serbia will have a new neighbour, that's Kosova.
Bon Courage.