DSS continues war of words against NATO

His (Jocic) statements about NATO are "controversial" because they are true and NATO does not like the truth. Remember in 99 when NATO denied for almost 3 days that the F-117 was shot down? When the Serbs came up with irrefutable proof then NATO finally admitted to it. NATO lied & fabricated almost everything about their involvement in Yugoslavia. If Jocic is wrong, then let NATO prove him wrong, since they have no credibility when it comes to the truth!

Cleave: Joe Bissett the former Canadian ambassador to Belgrade was fired for saying NATO needed a cause to continue as a military alliance after Warsaw Pact disbanded. NATO nations aided, abetted and participated in the breakup of Yugoslavia. The ethnic conflict that they created by breaking treaties and international law was the fuel for the ethnic conflict fire that they set. The moral indignation and vilification of the Serbs that followed was the reason they gave for NATO’s need to continue as an alliance. The September 11th attack on the twin towers of which they were warned by the Israeli intelligence, they ignored, now NATO uses fear of terrorism as the reason for billions of dollars going into a bottomless pit of the US military industrial complex.

Project for the New American Century to which I have alluded many times is an “American neoconservative think tank based in Washington, D.C co founded as "a non-profit educational organization" by William Kristol and Robert Kagan in early 1997.” The who is who of the American Right Wing met in secret in Northern California and formulated the policy now being played out. In KOSOVO

Dragan Jočić has obviously seen this clause from the policy:

“REPOSITION U.S. FORCES to respond to 21st century strategic realities by shifting permanently-based forces to Southeast Europe and Southeast Asia, and by changing naval deployment patterns to reflect growing U.S. strategic concerns in East Asia. (iv)”

WOW! Princip, what you think?
I am SHOCKED. They are serious about this. People! Basically Serbia now holds key to if or not NATO will continue to exist. This brings up a huge blow to the legitimacy of NATO. Which ANY "rouge" states can use in UN against them. Simple truth is GAME OVER.

US might be forced to back down from this because now Serbs have completely switched their targets. We can talk all we want but NATO is incapable of doing anything serious to Serbia anymore.

While they were trying to put down US and Kosovo albans, they neglegtect to mention who the main benefactor of this little charade is. Drum roll please........... NATO!

This type of a scandal is not something NATO would be able to survive. Such a scandal would make the EAST question it as an organization build on exploitation through any means. And they would have the evidence they need.

CCCC

Lazer, by enjoying broad autonomy,as offered you will have more power than you actually deserved in regard to normally justified rights for minorities within sovereign nation-states!

so, don´t you feel ashamed to write such a comment,just obvious, only to provoke and accuse "the Serbs"?

Normally this type of stuff comes from the radical party... thank god that the dude from Kostunica's party has some brains. Anyways, it is apparent to anyone who studied the situation that NATO made life worse for the albanians. Most of their suffering happened after the bombing as a consequence of it.

This is to show the “anger” towards another loss as usual and it sounds like glorifying the loss, like the one of 1389.
(Olf, 16. August 2007 17:23)

you should know that Serbs are not "celebrating a loss" ( this can only be thought by an Albanian as it seems ) bu the sacrifice for higher values...

LAZER: You are yelling again. All I need to do here in Western Canada is open my window and I will be able to hear you. Where exacly does it say in the article as you write that Serbia would “NOT [---] SHARE POWER. One person one vote and Kosovo Albanian deputies sit in parliament like any other representative from throughout Serbia

well, Lazer... you can´t have it both.
either you have broad autonomy...what means you rule yourself down there in the serbian province of Kosovo i Metohija, or you live as every other citizen of the Republic of Serbia under the constitution of that State.

but wanting to interfere in serbian affairs without being a part of serbian politics is highly immature of you.
by the way isn´t it all the time the Albanians who are whining about the Serbs "have never been to Kosovo and do not know anything" ...and you live in the US and dare to give your opinion??? =)

once again Albanians contradicting themselves.
as usual.

Let us all be careful in throwing these type of statements around.
Not being FOR something or someone DOESN’T (necessarily) mean you are AGAINST it.
I hope this is not an utterly noble concept to anyone…?!?

The exception is , of course, that rancher-man from Texas with his black&white peripheral vision.

James I mentioned to my nephew that he was lucky to have come to Canada when he did because of all the benefits that the Canadian society provided new immigrants i.e. free English language lessons and for those who did not have a sponsor a monthly paycheck as well as medical and dental care which was not available to those who came some years before him. His response was that Canada was lucky to have him since the year of language lessons at a cost of $15, 000 has resulted in his ability to earn and employ four Canadians and pay five times that in taxes.

These language lessons have resulted in the ability of many who came from Yugoslavia Serb, Croat, Muslim and Albanian to do very well. These language lessons have also given them an added and important benefit the ability to be critical thinkers. You need to critically think about the things you wrote in your first paragraph above. Why is America spending billions on military goods and very little to promote peace, War pays dividends to investors while peace does not. Blackmail is the main arm of American diplomacy.

You write that many posters have established prosperous lives in the West. Correct. Does that mean that we should be silent about Iraq, Yugoslavia and any other illegal and barbaric act committed by our government? I am not a Serbian citizen, and I have no benefits from Serbia whatsoever, however I do benefit from America killing Iraqis and supporting OPEC. If they did not do that we would be paying $200+ a barrel for oil and the gas prices would be astronomical. I have no choice here other than protest, write letter and expose this criminal activity for the benefit of the Western consumer. Serbia needs to stand up to blackmail as they did to the Austro Hungarian Ultimatum, Operation Maritta or punishment and the Rambouillet Ultimatum unlike the Albanians who joined the SS en masse. James for Serbia it is better to be famous for resisting injustice than infamous like Albania for doing injustice,

James, Serbia has always aliened her foreign policy with those who support international law and this is what I and others support. I have no idea where you live James but you miss the whole point about democracy. Democracy gives you the right to be critical. Democracy is not nepotism or “uno mano lave notro” as the Italians say –one hand washes the other which is what takes place in Albania and in the Balkans in general. Your position James is that of a simple man who is in situations of injustice, and you have chosen the side of the oppressor because he is on your side. If you really want peace and democracy be on the side of justice both for yourself and your neighbor.

The DSS party is the mid ground between the Radicals and the DS. They have more common policies with the Radicals than with the DS. Kostunica, in reality, holds the power and calls the shots. Has anyone noticed the DS is always distancing themselves from the type of comments referred to in this article. I recall that Tadic had dismissed Russian help by stating he had never requested it. I've read that he (Tadic) was boasting about his Washington connections. Why doesn't Kostunica end this charade and join forces with the Radicals. I believe he would've, however, he was under immense pressure from the west, who supposedly does not meddle in the affairs of other nations. I believe that Serbia would be stronger in every sense if Kostunica would abandon Tadic and join Nikolic. I also believe that if gthe Radicals would change their name, it would be more palatable by other countries.

All I'll add to this article is that it is likely to be the intention of the Serbian govt. to ditch NATO membership as a very very strong signal to the EU that Serbia intends to protect it's sovereignty diplomatically first of course. Also as a fleeting shot it will also start discussions with SCO if the first message is not heard clearly enough. Joining NATO is not a prerequisite for joining the EU irrespective of the US belief that it should be! In any case the EU are looking at getting their own defense force together having lost a great deal of faith in the US self-interest force of NATO

The commander of U.S. troops in Kosovo denied on Thursday Serbian allegations the United States planned to turn the breakaway province into a "NATO state".



Serbia insists on maintaining its legal sovereignty over the land and is offering the people wide autonomy, but not a share in governing Serbia as equal citizens.

Unbelievable!!!

Serbia wants sovereignty and control over Kosovo, but NOT to SHARE POWER.

I wonder what planet do these people from DSS ( Koshtunica’s Party ), came from???

How the end aproach the Serb politicians are more and more nervouse. This is very bad aproach to the west.

Actually I do agree that the statement is immature and highly controversial but at the same time sends a message that Kosova is gone and the fault is with US and some EU countries, so they have found the guilty one, Halleluiah. This is to show the “anger” towards another loss as usual and it sounds like glorifying the loss, like the one of 1389.

To James:
I don't know your origin nor do I want to. How would you like your country and your people to be bombarded and ripped apart? Which nation in the world would align themselves with their enemies?
Are we supposed to embrace Nato, EU, and the US for their hostilities? Are we to thank them for their attempt to dismantle our country apart? And don't give me the the stories about the autrocities committed by the Serbs, rather, take a look into history and see how it all originated. But being who you are, the bias is embedded in your soul. Russia is a natural ally and is supporting Serbia against this malicious aggression, of course we will embrace them. Finaly, you state that the Serbs living abroad are hypocrites because they are'nt enduring the daily events in the Mother Land.
Unlike yourself, the Serbs abroad are living and breathing every event that's
transpiring in their homeland. If we were hypocrites we would'nt be on this board warding off biasness stemming from the likes of someone like yourself!! I support my country financialy and emotionaly. I came to Canada at FOUR years of age, and have conteplated many times joining the paramilitary. So you see, this lavish western lifestyle hasn't influenced me.

To Lazer:
Is'nt there anything more in your vocabulary besides your ignoramous comments that Kosovo will be independent.
You and Ahmet are like broken records. Try and address the arguemnts put forward, and NO!! Kosovo will never achieve independence!!!

This is a brilliant move that will pit the EU against tahe US as the EU has a lot more economic and political investment in Serbia than the US could ever hope to have. Ultimately threatening to exit Nato's "partnership for peace,", comes at a perfect time when America is being humiliated even more, in addition to its helplessness in the face of the UN, for its aggression in '99. This is true serbia-russian style brinkmanship that has come at the right time!

Albanians, I say again, it is impossible for such a poor area as kosovo to function apart from Serbia. No investor will invest as long as Serbia has claims over the province--too risky. The entire area for investors, will always be SOVEREIGN serbian territory and hence a no go area until normalization of relations with serbian.

I would invite Mr. Kostunica to please find more Ministers like these guys, who have been attacking NATO and the USA. It really is helping our cause when Serb ministers speak and behave as if they were from Iran or Cuba. I want to thank this minister and any other who publicly makes statements like these towards the NATO and the US.

Yes its true, the DSS stance is crass populism from a party that has supported neoliberal reforms that have hurt the poorest in the country. DSS is an opportunistic party adn should be shunned. But the positioin re: NATO is important as it reflects a general oppinion in Serbia (note the support for EU integration is seen as a different issue from NATO integration). It's time for a serious alternative to emerge in Serbia which rejects the neoliberal economic policies of the 'democrats' (including their cheerleeding for Western military adventurism and murder) and a party that rejects the bigotry of the Serbian right-wing chauvinist parties. Considering that 60% of the people don't vote, it's clear that such an alternative could inspire Serbia!! Let's look at the party platforms of movements and political parties in Latin America. Now there's a model for economic progress with dignity!!! :)

To bgagnon:

For your information, the Radicals did get the greatest number of votes, so I gusess the Serbian people do like their policies.

bganon, I have not "fallen" for any trap, of course there were "lies" and distortions from both sides, nothing is black & white in this world. NATO was doing something very bad and saying (lying) how good it was. Serbia was fighting terrorists/insurgency within it's own borders, while NATO under the guise of the "good guy" was attacking a country that had not attacked anyone else. The burden of the truth was on NATO'S shoulder. That hardly compares to Beograd's distortion of the # of aircraft shot down.

The only thing interesting about this repetitive anti NATO stand is the insight it gives into some of those commenting here.

Zoran, for example you seem to have fallen completely for the trap of reliving NATO bombardment. They didnt mention it in so many words but that type of rhetoric is aimed at people like you. You should bear in mind that it wasnt a case of the good (Serbia) versus the bad (NATO). As much as NATO lied about that plane and other attrocities comitted against civilians it wasnt as if Serbs werent being lied to by our own government. Can you remember how many NATO planes Serb state media announced that they destroyed? Yeah that was a lie too.

Walter I do understand and appreciate your approach but you are reading far too much into statements from Jocic. He is not an intellectual and doesnt base his decisions on information based on your reading list. Nor does he read clauses and annexes. Somebody else does that for him - if they do at all. Above all he bases his decisions on the good of his party - not the good of his people.

Paul if you think that the Radical Party will bring prosperity to Serbia then power to you. I dont share that opinion in the slightest. And nor do the majority of the Serbian people.

I notice a lack of moderate Serb opinion on this issue and count that down to slight embarassment - or boredom with same old tired rethoric.

I wont waste my time commenting this issue again and fall into the trap of letting the agenda be set by an extreme faction of DSS and their cheerleaders.

Considering the latest rhetoric from Serbia one should take very seriously Wisner's message to Serbia. And indeed after statements by Branislav Ristivojevic, spokesman for Prime Minister Vojilslav Kostunica's nationalist Democratic Party of Serbia that "We won't give up Kosovo, nor one inch of Serbian territory, for any kind of international integration process, whether it's NATO, the European Union or anything else," preceded by Minister for Kosovo Slobodan Samardzic who says that NATO wants Kosovo as a base for its strategic goals and on Wednesday urged Washington to give up "the project of creating a satellite, army barrack, state on foreign territory," today Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov added more to this tug of words (which only seemed to confirm the path Serbia has chosen) and accused the West of backing independence under threat of Albanian "violence and anarchy," saying Western governments were "inclined to give in to blackmail."

Many of the posters here have established prosperous lives on the same Western countries they now chide and deride every day (also, proudly speak of their educational achievements and riches there and in former republics of Yugoslavia, as though this adds more weight to their claims), and prophesies to the Serbs in Serbia not to accept anything short of Kosovo within Serbia, knowing that as things are headed Serbia may very well wind up being isolated (maybe even worst than Albania was after the WWII), and economically depended on an unreliable country famous only for its anti democratic policies in the past and in the present.

It is shocking to read that many Serb nationals living abroad, primarily in Western countries, think that somehow things will be much better if Serbia aligns itself with Russia. Yet themselves prefer to stay where they are, that is Western countries, in the comfort of their lavish lives in the West ... Now this is hypocrisy! What a shame ...


Perhaps you all prefer something like this. This way your money will bo worth more and you can fret about it during your holidays in Serbia ...

lazer,...your state of denial goes beyond all known boundaries...

since you do not succeed in the UNSC, it is only a question of time... Serbia will come back.
you can trust me on that.

and..go on, write independence in capital letters, it won´t help you...

To Zoran:
Regarding Nato's addmission with respect to their losses, many more stealth planes, and others, went down then they care to admit. I've read that over 1000 Tomahawk missles were intercepted and on average two planes were either shot or damaged each day. They (US) couldn't cripple our great air defence system, so they went after civilian targets. Serbia was held at gun point and to suffer consequences if they were to reveal the actual facts. They (US) didn't want the world to know the damage and shame that a small country has inflicted on them. Now the anti Serb audience on this forum will state that this is just a myth that the Serbs are employing to save face and demonstate how courages they were. Gentlemen, the Serbs indeed kicked some American ass!! If you would like to reflect at the events that occurred at that time and explain, why were so many planes required to bring down a small nation? If you recall, more and more and more...etc. planes were sent,
WHY!!! If you also recall, at the end, Nato mounted 50,000 troops around the Macedonian border supposedly to engage in hand combat. They then had to beg the Russians to intervene because they knew very well what was waiting,
what cowards!! My cousin fought in that war. The Serbs were dug in and salivating to welcome the foreigners on their soil. If you also recall, how many tanks rolled out of Kosovo at the end. The reality is that the Americans were shooting at cardboard targets. What a joke!!

Serbia is and will remain for some time to come a radical country. The problem was created by, among others, the Serbian Academy of Sciences who was and is one of the main architects of the breakdown of Yugoslavia and the main producer of methods for ethic cleansing.

If the intellectual elite of a country works hard towards coming up with effective means of ethnic cleansing and territorial expansion then what can we expect from the average citizen with mediocre, if any education?

So long as Serbs or Albanians are forced to obey one or the other there will be violence and there will be conflict. Its who we are now.

The only viable solution is to finally part ways and try to form a good neighborly relationship, i am absolutely sure that once neither Albanians nor Serbs are forced to obey or bow to each other we will eventually form a very good partnership which will ensure stability and peace in this region.

After all, both you and we grew up watching Kocka Kockica and Laku Noc Deco :)

No Nick I did not grow up watching Kocka Kockica and Laku Noc Deco> I grew up watching, The Road Runner, Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig, and The Lone Ranger where good guys killed bad guys without any reflection on who really was good and who was bad.

I felt that if Tito’s could call himself Walter and if Walter defended Belgrade Walter would be a good name that Anglo Saxons could relate to. Really Lazer we are a bit closer to Disneyland here in BC than you in NY but than you don’t need to visit Disneyland since you seem to live it in your posts. By the way my real name is Kralj Vukasin, I ruled Kosovo one time and my son Marko used to fly around Kosovo on a white horse like Lone Ranger protecting Serbs, and Albanians from Musa Kesedjija and all those other bad dudes and yes Victor even Croats liked my son Marko because my father-in-law knew his great battles better than the blind Montenegrin Guslar. I think that Walt Disney got his ideas from the Serbian Sagas for the Road Runner and Bugs Bunny. Lazer I though you were becoming reasonable you need to blame my parents for calling me Walter I had nothing to do with it.

Nick did you mean don’t know much about Serbia? It seems to me that they know a great deal about those who don’t know much about Serbia. We know it took 500 years of blood tax and enslavement and if you resisted you were impaled on a ‘trklja”. We know that thousand did not resist and they became Muslims and many fled and willingly or by force became Croats. We also know that the “Young Turks” in NATO are on the march that is the truth and you know “Truth is beauty and beauty is truth and that is all we need to know”

It's really said to hear this over an over again from Serbian politicians. Looks like they have not got the lesson yet. What strikes more is that Interior Minister Dragan Jočić is one of the most influential figures within Kostunica's party, meaning that it represents Serbian State's political stand on this matter. My question to Honorable Interior Minister Dragan Jočić is: Where are you heading Mr. Minister? Do you think Serbia can militarily and financially face NATO now? Is this a smart political move for Serbia and its people? By now we know the first Milosevic's war against NATO results? Let's hope Kostunica will not do the same mistake as his spiritual father.

When making these kind of statements, the cabinet is behind all atrocities done on the war last decade.

Feel really sorry for the Serbs, who is leading them. Hope one day the will wake up and though these guys from the armchair that they are enjoying so far.

Can they be more disgrace? By abusing the power that they have and not care what people want in Kosovo or Serbia.

What's the change that Serbia has undergone compare to Millosevi's era, NONE!

Peace to Kosove & Serbia!

Walter, living in Western Canada is by no means a plus, anyway, you are so fare away from NYC that I have to yell so you could hear me.
Here is a link:http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1635710020070816

Jovan,
I live in USA and here evrey person is covered by THE CONSTITUTION OF UNITED STATES OF AMERICA> If you were to come in USA as a tourist you would be covered as well.
Dont tell me about the rights of minorities stuff, that only exists in former Communist countries.
Everyone born in any country should have a right to live and share.

Paul, good comment! You wrote that 1000 or so tomahawk missiles were shot down, do you have a link or could you direct me to more information on NATO'S losses from the attack on Serbia/Montenegro?

To Zoran:

I followed the war intensely throughout. Regarding the links, use search words like Nato losses in Kosovo, nato casualities, ..etc. Use words relating to the war. Let me know how you did.

johny
thats the most rediculous comment ever. That would mean that starting with Germany for its atrocities during WW2 its sovereignty should be taken away and the country should be split into apropriate ammount of pieces. Same with US, it lied to its citizens about KOSOVO, IRAQ (WMDs), VIETNAM, etc and send its people to be slaughtered for finiancial and political reasons and not because they were threatened. So US should be broken into 52 individual states. Almost all countries in africa should then be broken up. Who gets to decide which country should then be sovereign? THE UN? Please tell me how that would be fair when its run by a few nations of which according to ur set of rules none of them should be sovereign either?

According to that then no nation in the world should be sovereign.

Its because of problems like these that once a country is sovereign its borders cannot change. No matter how many terrorists it kills in self deffence. Like US or Serbia.

CCC

To Johny:
Did you know there are two n's in "Johnny." Is it a mistake, or you just don't know how to spell your name. You talk about the one sided fabrications on BBC and CNN.
They are there for public consumption to brain wash people like you in order for governments to pursue their real aspirations. Did they ever show you the autrocities committed by the other side? Do they reveal two sides of the story. The answer is blowing in the wind. I thought that you pro-albanians were above those arguements since they are a double edged sword. Get with the program. When you do talk about autrocities, tell the WHOLE STORY and not only what suits you!!!

It is as if Milosevic is still in power in Belgrade... DSS should ask for a merge with the Radicals and SPS.

Very good post James.

It seems that Radicals in Serbia have rdicalized most of the serb posters here.
Never mind its either Serbs or Albanians that will leave the talks in Vienna.
I am sure the 120 days mean nothing and KosovA will become INDEPENDENT.

"It's time for a serious alternative to emerge in Serbia which rejects the neoliberal economic policies of the 'democrats' (including their cheerleeding for Western military adventurism and murder) and a party that rejects the bigotry of the Serbian right-wing chauvinist parties."

Thanks costa, perhaps the best comment on what is missing in Serbia's politics that I've yet seen on this list. The awful dilemmas been played out here by both sides quite often need to be rejected. Isn't it ironic that one day we see heralding of joint SerbianArmy-NATO cooperation on the border, agreements with NATO to move its troops through Serbian territory, Serbian membership of the PfP (ie NATO), and then the next day the same government denounces ... NATO, only because the latter does not see the most right-wing chauvinist version of Serbian policy in the region as in its interests.

Jovan,

Nobody is contradicting themselves but yourself. I might add that your comments are oftenly insulting. Kosova is and has always been an Albanian land in spite of the fact that you've managed to built some churches during timely occupations. As long as there are people like myself who have ended up without families as a result of Serbia's bruttality, Kosova will never be part of Serbia as much as you may like to repeat the nineties.

Gee, Walter I did not know they had Disney in Wester Canada.
Where the good guys killed the bad guys??
Wow, Walter, is that your real name, 'cause Walter is a German name.

Jočić should save his BS for the Kafana...

Walter,

Too bad, perhaps we could have communicated easier if both we had both watched Branko Kockica :)

Point is, very few Serbs who write here know much about Serbia and you lack of understanding of Serbia prior to 1999 makes discussions here extremely difficult.

"I don't know your origin nor do I want to. How would you like your country and your people to be bombarded and ripped apart?"

The Serbs don't get or act like they don't get something which is very simple and fundamental. Once a country engages in atrocities like Serbia did in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosova/o its sovereignty is forfeited, it is not sovereign anymore. This is the policy nowadays.

If I see the same images and videos on CNN, BBC, Reuters, and the major media like I saw during Kosova/o and Bosnia then any country that commits them has no right to be sovereign anymore, be it Albania, Germany, UK, Belgium etc etc.
As a fresh example let's take Darfur. Sudan's sovereignty should be forfeited because it has engaged in atrocities in Darfur. If that area was in Europe Sudan would have been bombed a long time ago. Now if anyone doesn't get it why Serbia got bombed it's sovereignty in a specific are is being forfeited then I don't think they will ever get it.

Walter,
Disneyland, Disneyworld, who cares who is closer to whom and what.
You still need a passport to go into Disneyland.
As far as your name I thought it was a nick name.
Walter brani Sarajevo is the true Walter (movie and TV series) to be exact.
Then Walter turned on Sarajevo and attacked it!!!
Musa Kesedjija was not an Albanian unless in your minds (serbian) an imaginatory figure.
Imagination is a wonderful thing isnt it.
I also admire your shrewdness, but in case of KosovA it will not HELP to be shrewd.
Its beyond that. I only speak the facts, and I know a lot of them that are not to good for your Serbia.
I also some facts that are very good for Serbia but, another time.
Your demeanor in attacking everything I say proves who you are or want to be.

KOSOVA INDEPENDENT!!!

**PEACE**

Actually I do agree that the statement is immature and highly controversial but at the same time sends a message that Kosova is gone and the fault is with US and some EU countries, so they have found the guilty one, Halleluiah. This is to show the “anger” towards another loss as usual and it sounds like glorifying the loss, like the one of 1389.

When making these kind of statements, the cabinet is behind all atrocities done on the war last decade.

Feel really sorry for the Serbs, who is leading them. Hope one day the will wake up and though these guys from the armchair that they are enjoying so far.

Can they be more disgrace? By abusing the power that they have and not care what people want in Kosovo or Serbia.

What's the change that Serbia has undergone compare to Millosevi's era, NONE!

Peace to Kosove & Serbia!

The commander of U.S. troops in Kosovo denied on Thursday Serbian allegations the United States planned to turn the breakaway province into a "NATO state".



Serbia insists on maintaining its legal sovereignty over the land and is offering the people wide autonomy, but not a share in governing Serbia as equal citizens.

Unbelievable!!!

Serbia wants sovereignty and control over Kosovo, but NOT to SHARE POWER.

I wonder what planet do these people from DSS ( Koshtunica’s Party ), came from???

How the end aproach the Serb politicians are more and more nervouse. This is very bad aproach to the west.

It is as if Milosevic is still in power in Belgrade... DSS should ask for a merge with the Radicals and SPS.

It's really said to hear this over an over again from Serbian politicians. Looks like they have not got the lesson yet. What strikes more is that Interior Minister Dragan Jočić is one of the most influential figures within Kostunica's party, meaning that it represents Serbian State's political stand on this matter. My question to Honorable Interior Minister Dragan Jočić is: Where are you heading Mr. Minister? Do you think Serbia can militarily and financially face NATO now? Is this a smart political move for Serbia and its people? By now we know the first Milosevic's war against NATO results? Let's hope Kostunica will not do the same mistake as his spiritual father.

To James:
I don't know your origin nor do I want to. How would you like your country and your people to be bombarded and ripped apart? Which nation in the world would align themselves with their enemies?
Are we supposed to embrace Nato, EU, and the US for their hostilities? Are we to thank them for their attempt to dismantle our country apart? And don't give me the the stories about the autrocities committed by the Serbs, rather, take a look into history and see how it all originated. But being who you are, the bias is embedded in your soul. Russia is a natural ally and is supporting Serbia against this malicious aggression, of course we will embrace them. Finaly, you state that the Serbs living abroad are hypocrites because they are'nt enduring the daily events in the Mother Land.
Unlike yourself, the Serbs abroad are living and breathing every event that's
transpiring in their homeland. If we were hypocrites we would'nt be on this board warding off biasness stemming from the likes of someone like yourself!! I support my country financialy and emotionaly. I came to Canada at FOUR years of age, and have conteplated many times joining the paramilitary. So you see, this lavish western lifestyle hasn't influenced me.

To Lazer:
Is'nt there anything more in your vocabulary besides your ignoramous comments that Kosovo will be independent.
You and Ahmet are like broken records. Try and address the arguemnts put forward, and NO!! Kosovo will never achieve independence!!!

Lazer, by enjoying broad autonomy,as offered you will have more power than you actually deserved in regard to normally justified rights for minorities within sovereign nation-states!

so, don´t you feel ashamed to write such a comment,just obvious, only to provoke and accuse "the Serbs"?

His (Jocic) statements about NATO are "controversial" because they are true and NATO does not like the truth. Remember in 99 when NATO denied for almost 3 days that the F-117 was shot down? When the Serbs came up with irrefutable proof then NATO finally admitted to it. NATO lied & fabricated almost everything about their involvement in Yugoslavia. If Jocic is wrong, then let NATO prove him wrong, since they have no credibility when it comes to the truth!

I would invite Mr. Kostunica to please find more Ministers like these guys, who have been attacking NATO and the USA. It really is helping our cause when Serb ministers speak and behave as if they were from Iran or Cuba. I want to thank this minister and any other who publicly makes statements like these towards the NATO and the US.

Walter, living in Western Canada is by no means a plus, anyway, you are so fare away from NYC that I have to yell so you could hear me.
Here is a link:http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1635710020070816

Jovan,
I live in USA and here evrey person is covered by THE CONSTITUTION OF UNITED STATES OF AMERICA> If you were to come in USA as a tourist you would be covered as well.
Dont tell me about the rights of minorities stuff, that only exists in former Communist countries.
Everyone born in any country should have a right to live and share.

The DSS party is the mid ground between the Radicals and the DS. They have more common policies with the Radicals than with the DS. Kostunica, in reality, holds the power and calls the shots. Has anyone noticed the DS is always distancing themselves from the type of comments referred to in this article. I recall that Tadic had dismissed Russian help by stating he had never requested it. I've read that he (Tadic) was boasting about his Washington connections. Why doesn't Kostunica end this charade and join forces with the Radicals. I believe he would've, however, he was under immense pressure from the west, who supposedly does not meddle in the affairs of other nations. I believe that Serbia would be stronger in every sense if Kostunica would abandon Tadic and join Nikolic. I also believe that if gthe Radicals would change their name, it would be more palatable by other countries.

WOW! Princip, what you think?
I am SHOCKED. They are serious about this. People! Basically Serbia now holds key to if or not NATO will continue to exist. This brings up a huge blow to the legitimacy of NATO. Which ANY "rouge" states can use in UN against them. Simple truth is GAME OVER.

US might be forced to back down from this because now Serbs have completely switched their targets. We can talk all we want but NATO is incapable of doing anything serious to Serbia anymore.

While they were trying to put down US and Kosovo albans, they neglegtect to mention who the main benefactor of this little charade is. Drum roll please........... NATO!

This type of a scandal is not something NATO would be able to survive. Such a scandal would make the EAST question it as an organization build on exploitation through any means. And they would have the evidence they need.

CCCC

This is to show the “anger” towards another loss as usual and it sounds like glorifying the loss, like the one of 1389.
(Olf, 16. August 2007 17:23)

you should know that Serbs are not "celebrating a loss" ( this can only be thought by an Albanian as it seems ) bu the sacrifice for higher values...

LAZER: You are yelling again. All I need to do here in Western Canada is open my window and I will be able to hear you. Where exacly does it say in the article as you write that Serbia would “NOT [---] SHARE POWER. One person one vote and Kosovo Albanian deputies sit in parliament like any other representative from throughout Serbia

The only thing interesting about this repetitive anti NATO stand is the insight it gives into some of those commenting here.

Zoran, for example you seem to have fallen completely for the trap of reliving NATO bombardment. They didnt mention it in so many words but that type of rhetoric is aimed at people like you. You should bear in mind that it wasnt a case of the good (Serbia) versus the bad (NATO). As much as NATO lied about that plane and other attrocities comitted against civilians it wasnt as if Serbs werent being lied to by our own government. Can you remember how many NATO planes Serb state media announced that they destroyed? Yeah that was a lie too.

Walter I do understand and appreciate your approach but you are reading far too much into statements from Jocic. He is not an intellectual and doesnt base his decisions on information based on your reading list. Nor does he read clauses and annexes. Somebody else does that for him - if they do at all. Above all he bases his decisions on the good of his party - not the good of his people.

Paul if you think that the Radical Party will bring prosperity to Serbia then power to you. I dont share that opinion in the slightest. And nor do the majority of the Serbian people.

I notice a lack of moderate Serb opinion on this issue and count that down to slight embarassment - or boredom with same old tired rethoric.

I wont waste my time commenting this issue again and fall into the trap of letting the agenda be set by an extreme faction of DSS and their cheerleaders.

well, Lazer... you can´t have it both.
either you have broad autonomy...what means you rule yourself down there in the serbian province of Kosovo i Metohija, or you live as every other citizen of the Republic of Serbia under the constitution of that State.

but wanting to interfere in serbian affairs without being a part of serbian politics is highly immature of you.
by the way isn´t it all the time the Albanians who are whining about the Serbs "have never been to Kosovo and do not know anything" ...and you live in the US and dare to give your opinion??? =)

once again Albanians contradicting themselves.
as usual.

Considering the latest rhetoric from Serbia one should take very seriously Wisner's message to Serbia. And indeed after statements by Branislav Ristivojevic, spokesman for Prime Minister Vojilslav Kostunica's nationalist Democratic Party of Serbia that "We won't give up Kosovo, nor one inch of Serbian territory, for any kind of international integration process, whether it's NATO, the European Union or anything else," preceded by Minister for Kosovo Slobodan Samardzic who says that NATO wants Kosovo as a base for its strategic goals and on Wednesday urged Washington to give up "the project of creating a satellite, army barrack, state on foreign territory," today Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov added more to this tug of words (which only seemed to confirm the path Serbia has chosen) and accused the West of backing independence under threat of Albanian "violence and anarchy," saying Western governments were "inclined to give in to blackmail."

Many of the posters here have established prosperous lives on the same Western countries they now chide and deride every day (also, proudly speak of their educational achievements and riches there and in former republics of Yugoslavia, as though this adds more weight to their claims), and prophesies to the Serbs in Serbia not to accept anything short of Kosovo within Serbia, knowing that as things are headed Serbia may very well wind up being isolated (maybe even worst than Albania was after the WWII), and economically depended on an unreliable country famous only for its anti democratic policies in the past and in the present.

It is shocking to read that many Serb nationals living abroad, primarily in Western countries, think that somehow things will be much better if Serbia aligns itself with Russia. Yet themselves prefer to stay where they are, that is Western countries, in the comfort of their lavish lives in the West ... Now this is hypocrisy! What a shame ...


Perhaps you all prefer something like this. This way your money will bo worth more and you can fret about it during your holidays in Serbia ...

To Zoran:
Regarding Nato's addmission with respect to their losses, many more stealth planes, and others, went down then they care to admit. I've read that over 1000 Tomahawk missles were intercepted and on average two planes were either shot or damaged each day. They (US) couldn't cripple our great air defence system, so they went after civilian targets. Serbia was held at gun point and to suffer consequences if they were to reveal the actual facts. They (US) didn't want the world to know the damage and shame that a small country has inflicted on them. Now the anti Serb audience on this forum will state that this is just a myth that the Serbs are employing to save face and demonstate how courages they were. Gentlemen, the Serbs indeed kicked some American ass!! If you would like to reflect at the events that occurred at that time and explain, why were so many planes required to bring down a small nation? If you recall, more and more and more...etc. planes were sent,
WHY!!! If you also recall, at the end, Nato mounted 50,000 troops around the Macedonian border supposedly to engage in hand combat. They then had to beg the Russians to intervene because they knew very well what was waiting,
what cowards!! My cousin fought in that war. The Serbs were dug in and salivating to welcome the foreigners on their soil. If you also recall, how many tanks rolled out of Kosovo at the end. The reality is that the Americans were shooting at cardboard targets. What a joke!!

Jovan,

Nobody is contradicting themselves but yourself. I might add that your comments are oftenly insulting. Kosova is and has always been an Albanian land in spite of the fact that you've managed to built some churches during timely occupations. As long as there are people like myself who have ended up without families as a result of Serbia's bruttality, Kosova will never be part of Serbia as much as you may like to repeat the nineties.

Serbia is and will remain for some time to come a radical country. The problem was created by, among others, the Serbian Academy of Sciences who was and is one of the main architects of the breakdown of Yugoslavia and the main producer of methods for ethic cleansing.

If the intellectual elite of a country works hard towards coming up with effective means of ethnic cleansing and territorial expansion then what can we expect from the average citizen with mediocre, if any education?

So long as Serbs or Albanians are forced to obey one or the other there will be violence and there will be conflict. Its who we are now.

The only viable solution is to finally part ways and try to form a good neighborly relationship, i am absolutely sure that once neither Albanians nor Serbs are forced to obey or bow to each other we will eventually form a very good partnership which will ensure stability and peace in this region.

After all, both you and we grew up watching Kocka Kockica and Laku Noc Deco :)

Gee, Walter I did not know they had Disney in Wester Canada.
Where the good guys killed the bad guys??
Wow, Walter, is that your real name, 'cause Walter is a German name.

Normally this type of stuff comes from the radical party... thank god that the dude from Kostunica's party has some brains. Anyways, it is apparent to anyone who studied the situation that NATO made life worse for the albanians. Most of their suffering happened after the bombing as a consequence of it.

Project for the New American Century to which I have alluded many times is an “American neoconservative think tank based in Washington, D.C co founded as "a non-profit educational organization" by William Kristol and Robert Kagan in early 1997.” The who is who of the American Right Wing met in secret in Northern California and formulated the policy now being played out. In KOSOVO

Dragan Jočić has obviously seen this clause from the policy:

“REPOSITION U.S. FORCES to respond to 21st century strategic realities by shifting permanently-based forces to Southeast Europe and Southeast Asia, and by changing naval deployment patterns to reflect growing U.S. strategic concerns in East Asia. (iv)”

Cleave: Joe Bissett the former Canadian ambassador to Belgrade was fired for saying NATO needed a cause to continue as a military alliance after Warsaw Pact disbanded. NATO nations aided, abetted and participated in the breakup of Yugoslavia. The ethnic conflict that they created by breaking treaties and international law was the fuel for the ethnic conflict fire that they set. The moral indignation and vilification of the Serbs that followed was the reason they gave for NATO’s need to continue as an alliance. The September 11th attack on the twin towers of which they were warned by the Israeli intelligence, they ignored, now NATO uses fear of terrorism as the reason for billions of dollars going into a bottomless pit of the US military industrial complex.

Yes its true, the DSS stance is crass populism from a party that has supported neoliberal reforms that have hurt the poorest in the country. DSS is an opportunistic party adn should be shunned. But the positioin re: NATO is important as it reflects a general oppinion in Serbia (note the support for EU integration is seen as a different issue from NATO integration). It's time for a serious alternative to emerge in Serbia which rejects the neoliberal economic policies of the 'democrats' (including their cheerleeding for Western military adventurism and murder) and a party that rejects the bigotry of the Serbian right-wing chauvinist parties. Considering that 60% of the people don't vote, it's clear that such an alternative could inspire Serbia!! Let's look at the party platforms of movements and political parties in Latin America. Now there's a model for economic progress with dignity!!! :)

Let us all be careful in throwing these type of statements around.
Not being FOR something or someone DOESN’T (necessarily) mean you are AGAINST it.
I hope this is not an utterly noble concept to anyone…?!?

The exception is , of course, that rancher-man from Texas with his black&white peripheral vision.

To bgagnon:

For your information, the Radicals did get the greatest number of votes, so I gusess the Serbian people do like their policies.

All I'll add to this article is that it is likely to be the intention of the Serbian govt. to ditch NATO membership as a very very strong signal to the EU that Serbia intends to protect it's sovereignty diplomatically first of course. Also as a fleeting shot it will also start discussions with SCO if the first message is not heard clearly enough. Joining NATO is not a prerequisite for joining the EU irrespective of the US belief that it should be! In any case the EU are looking at getting their own defense force together having lost a great deal of faith in the US self-interest force of NATO

Very good post James.

It seems that Radicals in Serbia have rdicalized most of the serb posters here.
Never mind its either Serbs or Albanians that will leave the talks in Vienna.
I am sure the 120 days mean nothing and KosovA will become INDEPENDENT.

bganon, I have not "fallen" for any trap, of course there were "lies" and distortions from both sides, nothing is black & white in this world. NATO was doing something very bad and saying (lying) how good it was. Serbia was fighting terrorists/insurgency within it's own borders, while NATO under the guise of the "good guy" was attacking a country that had not attacked anyone else. The burden of the truth was on NATO'S shoulder. That hardly compares to Beograd's distortion of the # of aircraft shot down.

lazer,...your state of denial goes beyond all known boundaries...

since you do not succeed in the UNSC, it is only a question of time... Serbia will come back.
you can trust me on that.

and..go on, write independence in capital letters, it won´t help you...

This is a brilliant move that will pit the EU against tahe US as the EU has a lot more economic and political investment in Serbia than the US could ever hope to have. Ultimately threatening to exit Nato's "partnership for peace,", comes at a perfect time when America is being humiliated even more, in addition to its helplessness in the face of the UN, for its aggression in '99. This is true serbia-russian style brinkmanship that has come at the right time!

Albanians, I say again, it is impossible for such a poor area as kosovo to function apart from Serbia. No investor will invest as long as Serbia has claims over the province--too risky. The entire area for investors, will always be SOVEREIGN serbian territory and hence a no go area until normalization of relations with serbian.

James I mentioned to my nephew that he was lucky to have come to Canada when he did because of all the benefits that the Canadian society provided new immigrants i.e. free English language lessons and for those who did not have a sponsor a monthly paycheck as well as medical and dental care which was not available to those who came some years before him. His response was that Canada was lucky to have him since the year of language lessons at a cost of $15, 000 has resulted in his ability to earn and employ four Canadians and pay five times that in taxes.

These language lessons have resulted in the ability of many who came from Yugoslavia Serb, Croat, Muslim and Albanian to do very well. These language lessons have also given them an added and important benefit the ability to be critical thinkers. You need to critically think about the things you wrote in your first paragraph above. Why is America spending billions on military goods and very little to promote peace, War pays dividends to investors while peace does not. Blackmail is the main arm of American diplomacy.

You write that many posters have established prosperous lives in the West. Correct. Does that mean that we should be silent about Iraq, Yugoslavia and any other illegal and barbaric act committed by our government? I am not a Serbian citizen, and I have no benefits from Serbia whatsoever, however I do benefit from America killing Iraqis and supporting OPEC. If they did not do that we would be paying $200+ a barrel for oil and the gas prices would be astronomical. I have no choice here other than protest, write letter and expose this criminal activity for the benefit of the Western consumer. Serbia needs to stand up to blackmail as they did to the Austro Hungarian Ultimatum, Operation Maritta or punishment and the Rambouillet Ultimatum unlike the Albanians who joined the SS en masse. James for Serbia it is better to be famous for resisting injustice than infamous like Albania for doing injustice,

James, Serbia has always aliened her foreign policy with those who support international law and this is what I and others support. I have no idea where you live James but you miss the whole point about democracy. Democracy gives you the right to be critical. Democracy is not nepotism or “uno mano lave notro” as the Italians say –one hand washes the other which is what takes place in Albania and in the Balkans in general. Your position James is that of a simple man who is in situations of injustice, and you have chosen the side of the oppressor because he is on your side. If you really want peace and democracy be on the side of justice both for yourself and your neighbor.

"It's time for a serious alternative to emerge in Serbia which rejects the neoliberal economic policies of the 'democrats' (including their cheerleeding for Western military adventurism and murder) and a party that rejects the bigotry of the Serbian right-wing chauvinist parties."

Thanks costa, perhaps the best comment on what is missing in Serbia's politics that I've yet seen on this list. The awful dilemmas been played out here by both sides quite often need to be rejected. Isn't it ironic that one day we see heralding of joint SerbianArmy-NATO cooperation on the border, agreements with NATO to move its troops through Serbian territory, Serbian membership of the PfP (ie NATO), and then the next day the same government denounces ... NATO, only because the latter does not see the most right-wing chauvinist version of Serbian policy in the region as in its interests.

No Nick I did not grow up watching Kocka Kockica and Laku Noc Deco> I grew up watching, The Road Runner, Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig, and The Lone Ranger where good guys killed bad guys without any reflection on who really was good and who was bad.

Jočić should save his BS for the Kafana...

Paul, good comment! You wrote that 1000 or so tomahawk missiles were shot down, do you have a link or could you direct me to more information on NATO'S losses from the attack on Serbia/Montenegro?

Walter,

Too bad, perhaps we could have communicated easier if both we had both watched Branko Kockica :)

Point is, very few Serbs who write here know much about Serbia and you lack of understanding of Serbia prior to 1999 makes discussions here extremely difficult.

I felt that if Tito’s could call himself Walter and if Walter defended Belgrade Walter would be a good name that Anglo Saxons could relate to. Really Lazer we are a bit closer to Disneyland here in BC than you in NY but than you don’t need to visit Disneyland since you seem to live it in your posts. By the way my real name is Kralj Vukasin, I ruled Kosovo one time and my son Marko used to fly around Kosovo on a white horse like Lone Ranger protecting Serbs, and Albanians from Musa Kesedjija and all those other bad dudes and yes Victor even Croats liked my son Marko because my father-in-law knew his great battles better than the blind Montenegrin Guslar. I think that Walt Disney got his ideas from the Serbian Sagas for the Road Runner and Bugs Bunny. Lazer I though you were becoming reasonable you need to blame my parents for calling me Walter I had nothing to do with it.

Nick did you mean don’t know much about Serbia? It seems to me that they know a great deal about those who don’t know much about Serbia. We know it took 500 years of blood tax and enslavement and if you resisted you were impaled on a ‘trklja”. We know that thousand did not resist and they became Muslims and many fled and willingly or by force became Croats. We also know that the “Young Turks” in NATO are on the march that is the truth and you know “Truth is beauty and beauty is truth and that is all we need to know”

To Zoran:

I followed the war intensely throughout. Regarding the links, use search words like Nato losses in Kosovo, nato casualities, ..etc. Use words relating to the war. Let me know how you did.

"I don't know your origin nor do I want to. How would you like your country and your people to be bombarded and ripped apart?"

The Serbs don't get or act like they don't get something which is very simple and fundamental. Once a country engages in atrocities like Serbia did in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosova/o its sovereignty is forfeited, it is not sovereign anymore. This is the policy nowadays.

If I see the same images and videos on CNN, BBC, Reuters, and the major media like I saw during Kosova/o and Bosnia then any country that commits them has no right to be sovereign anymore, be it Albania, Germany, UK, Belgium etc etc.
As a fresh example let's take Darfur. Sudan's sovereignty should be forfeited because it has engaged in atrocities in Darfur. If that area was in Europe Sudan would have been bombed a long time ago. Now if anyone doesn't get it why Serbia got bombed it's sovereignty in a specific are is being forfeited then I don't think they will ever get it.

johny
thats the most rediculous comment ever. That would mean that starting with Germany for its atrocities during WW2 its sovereignty should be taken away and the country should be split into apropriate ammount of pieces. Same with US, it lied to its citizens about KOSOVO, IRAQ (WMDs), VIETNAM, etc and send its people to be slaughtered for finiancial and political reasons and not because they were threatened. So US should be broken into 52 individual states. Almost all countries in africa should then be broken up. Who gets to decide which country should then be sovereign? THE UN? Please tell me how that would be fair when its run by a few nations of which according to ur set of rules none of them should be sovereign either?

According to that then no nation in the world should be sovereign.

Its because of problems like these that once a country is sovereign its borders cannot change. No matter how many terrorists it kills in self deffence. Like US or Serbia.

CCC

To Johny:
Did you know there are two n's in "Johnny." Is it a mistake, or you just don't know how to spell your name. You talk about the one sided fabrications on BBC and CNN.
They are there for public consumption to brain wash people like you in order for governments to pursue their real aspirations. Did they ever show you the autrocities committed by the other side? Do they reveal two sides of the story. The answer is blowing in the wind. I thought that you pro-albanians were above those arguements since they are a double edged sword. Get with the program. When you do talk about autrocities, tell the WHOLE STORY and not only what suits you!!!

Walter,
Disneyland, Disneyworld, who cares who is closer to whom and what.
You still need a passport to go into Disneyland.
As far as your name I thought it was a nick name.
Walter brani Sarajevo is the true Walter (movie and TV series) to be exact.
Then Walter turned on Sarajevo and attacked it!!!
Musa Kesedjija was not an Albanian unless in your minds (serbian) an imaginatory figure.
Imagination is a wonderful thing isnt it.
I also admire your shrewdness, but in case of KosovA it will not HELP to be shrewd.
Its beyond that. I only speak the facts, and I know a lot of them that are not to good for your Serbia.
I also some facts that are very good for Serbia but, another time.
Your demeanor in attacking everything I say proves who you are or want to be.

KOSOVA INDEPENDENT!!!

**PEACE**