First Kosovo status meeting: August 30

"European Union envoy Wolfgang Ischinger said that the principles of the Troika in the Kosovo status talks are based on United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 and principles of the Contact Group.

"He said that one of the principles of the Troika is not to propose solutions for the Kosovo problem, but to convince the two sides to make compromises that will bridge the gap between their stances."

That's all very well, and as it should be, but has anyone told the US? If they are standing on the sidelines giving the impression that they will support any unilateral declaration of independence, then what motivation will the Kosovo Albanian negotiating team have to participate?

The US needs to sing from the same songsheet as the EU. They need to send a clear message that they will no longer blindly support independence.

""We, as the Troika, will not give any proposals, partition or anything else. We stated clearly to both sides that the principle of the Troika is to accept every solution which the two sides are able to reach. That includes all options,” Ischinger said"

- get ready for intensive direct talks to brainstorm all options possible. There are many possible solutions here are just a few;
http://www.kosovocompromise.com/pages/kosovo_tommorow/sub_links/1/1.htm
Just because different options are thought of in a brainstorming session need not imply acceptance of any but these talks do need to be held so that everyone can think out of the "conflict" box that is always been threatened.

Win-win is possible by following a process of open and genuine (without prejudice) talks that do consider all options possible. This was denied by the bogus talks where not one second was actually given over to actual status - Ahtisaari just pushing his ICG pre-determined plans - hardly "negotiation" and a very poor example of "mediation"!

This is a great opportunity and if all truly believe that EU membership is a future goal then in all honesty trust and reconciliation must be an objective that should be formulated as an objective as part of the solution.

The EU has clearly told the US administration that they will not bypass the UN - this has been evident from the onset and should be no surprise. The fact that these talks are being held is clear of this case. Thus a solution that can pass in the UN must be found else the EU will just walk and pass the buck back to the parties concerned.

The US are in dire straits and equally need a credible way out that does not mean even greater loss of face since they have far too much on their plate and much discourse within NATO over current operations and it's own administration what with Rove about to resign. The US for all their huff & puff are in no position to bypass the UN especially given that they formulated and agreed 1244 which again has been noted as the principle of the talks. No one can escape the obligation of 1244 and its reaffirmation of Serbia's Sovereignity - this is not a historical myth but something that was agreed 8 years ago to end conflict.

My long held view is that I would not wish partition of the Sovereign & Democratic European State - Republic of Serbia be it 15, 5 or 1 % - this is a bad signal to unrest in any part of the world and equally goes against the EU grain of a "borderless society" and "inclusiveness". However, if a formula is agreed by both parties - whatever that is then clearly it would be passed in the UN.

It is good to look a fresh at what is already in the public domain and I would suggest all commentators look at the article; The Kosovo
Solution Series
Broad framework, many roads. By Aleksandar Mitic & Jan Oberg, .
http://www.kosovocompromise.com/pdf/print/kosovo_tommorow/3-01_1%20The%20Kosovo%20Solution%20Series.pdf

Reflect on page 6; The solution belongs to those who have the conflict

"It is a basic professional principle underlying the work of TFF that it analyses and mitigates conflicts; it does not present its own solutions. The philosophy is simple:
since conflicts belong to those who fight them, solutions should also belong to them.
All we can do as outsiders is to assist parties in finding solutions acceptable for all.
So, whether the parties together can find ways to create a Kosovo that is independent,
a Kosovo that is part of Serbia-Montenegro or something else is not our professional
concern.
What we do point out is that a conflict is solved only when..."
- all that is being said by the Troika suggests that they are in now in tune with the message eloquently put forth in this document. Hardly surprising then that we now have the EU formulating and spearheading the troika rather then all being dragged along by a imperialistic US. The talks are heading in the right direction but the difficult issues lie ahead and in all reality 4 months is a very short time so patience is required but much can be achieved in the next 4 months.

Ahtisari plan is dead and burried finally.

In the end the only solution that will lead to lasting peace in the whole region is a partition of Kosovo and independence for the albanian part and also for Republika Srpska.

If the albanians want to join europes poorest country, fine. Let them.
If the serbs in Republika Srpska wants to join Serbia in a united state, fine let them.

I was right all along , I have said it before many times that serbia does not care about religious sites, they only want the northern Mitrovica and nothing else. They care about natural resources and not the serbs living in Kosova.
Lets see how this will play out during these 120 days.

I agree to JHam, it´s always a little bit smarter to look what the future brings instead of "predicting" what will happen ( "Russia will back down before the one and only global superpower" )

as I said it so many times, let´s see what future brings.

I am confident.

Kate, I suspect the US deliberately wants to be seen to be on the sidelines. It's a powerful message to the Kosovo Albanian political leadership to cooperate.

The stakes have been raised for the US (energy security, missle shields, the dollar, trade wars, etc.) and they're getting tired of the Kosovo Albanian leadership's intransigence, which could drag the US into a quagmire.

I bet the US is telling Cheku et al that if they insist on 'independence or nothing', they'll end up with nothing.

Jovan, I don not think that Russia will back down on this one. Its their chance to show the world that there are more than one superpower in charge of European business.


Rade, I sincerely hope that you are right, Nothing would make me happier! well, exept one thing, a little call from Bush to Carla del Ponte telling her that Ceku will be charged by the Hague tribunal! Then the indictment would be headlines the next day..

I would suggest those who have not yet read Montgomery's new article on B92 "Frozen Conflicts" http://www.kosovocompromise.com/pdf/print/kosovo_tommorow/3-01_1%20The%20Kosovo%20Solution%20Series.pdf
to do so now because it gives quite a bit more insight in terms of where the EU is planning to guide these talks towards if no compromise occurs.

I have said it before there will be;
No Independence
No Illegal Declaration
No Illegal Recognition
No Violence - NATO will act!

So lets get on with finding a "compromise" that is agreeable for all and ensuring all in Serbia benefit - including it's province of Kosovo & Metohija.

The result is clear, There will be NO AGREEMENT between the two sides as everyone of us here knows very well and at the end the only option is the AHTISAARI PLAN which brings INDEPENDENCE to Kosova.
This 120 more days is only another way that Kosova and Serbia loose money for somethig that we all know that it will bring no agreement. It would be better for the two countries Kosova and Serbia to spend this money for people's needs.
Kosova will be independent and there is no other solution.

Ahmed and Afrim, you are the masters of spin.

Keep up the good work, your services will be required when the time comes to spin the final outcome, 'autonomy with elements of sovereignty' into 'independence'.

Ahmet, no you are not right.

While I can't speak for all serbs my own opinion is that serbs should get the northern part, not because of Trepca or its riches, but because thats there the serbs which are not etnically cleansed lives.

As much as I would like to keep Kosovo Polje and the manastaries I personally belives that its more important with people than dead things. Be it a monument, church, manastarie of historical value, but no serbs live there.

I do hope that the albanians will show a little restraint and not do a "taliban" thing and destroy this monument such as the talibans destroyed the Budha Statues but I am skeptical. To many churches and manastaries have been destroyed just because they are serbian..

BUT, its more important with peoples lives than buildings, therefor I say as a realistical solution that we the serbs get the northern part, and the albanians the rest. Its not what I emotionally want, then you could all move back to albania were you came from in the 70:s and 80:s but its a realistic solution. Of course it would be political suicide for a serbian politician to admit this, as it would be for an albanian politician aswell.

But history in Balkan has shown that no compromises usually does not lead to victory, exept in Croatia where etnichal cleansing led to croat victory. But this was almost 15 years ago, today its not an option. There are no more Milosevic, if he had been still in power you would already been having independence for Kosovo. So despite all hate for Sloba Milosevic, if it wasn't for his stubborness against NATO/west nobody in the west would have cared for the albanians, even less internvened. After all, in comparison to the Kurds in oil rich Kurdistan, Kosovo has little valure to the west. (of course many countries would like to expell the refugees back to Kosovo and therefor has an interest in independent Kosovo)

Absolutely right, Kate.

The Kosovo Albanian leadership has become a political liability for this Administration, as have various other unsavoury 'clients' in the past.

Srboslav, I suspect you'll get your wish.

The Hague might not be a bad option for Cheku, the way things are going. At least his life won't be in danger there.

to Ahmet Istufi - you are only right in your own mind. Not one time has anyone mentioned religion and you continue to post such atrocities.

There have been times where you showed a little bit of your human side, (like when apologizing to Kate), but, you and those like you are the reason Serbia is in the state it's in TODAY!

There isn't one single country/nation in the world that would not allow a person of another heritage to reside on "their land" just as long as everything was done through the proper channels - apply for citizenship, pay taxes, respect the people/heritage of the land. You on the other hand, have no respect for the land, heritage, people NOTHING that Serbia is. You still have this fantasy of the greater albania, which will not happen!

"Keep your friends close & your enemies closer"

Srboslav: I do not think Ceku is ever gonna be indicted (nor do I think he should be indicted) for anything that hapenned in Kosovo. You guys seem to place a lot of importance on him as the Chief of Staff of the KLA etc, but he only got that position late in the war, in 1999, and he was dealing with the reorganisation of the KLA and such. He was not really involved in the day to day fighting, but was simply trying to build the KLA into a regular army, rather than a guerrilla one. Anyone who knows the nature of the KLA will tell you that field commanders or zone commanderslike Haradinaj or Remi or Limaj did not really care that much about Ceku or Thaci or anyone for that matter.And if Ceku goes to the Hague I wonder how many Serb police chiefs and army commanders would fill up the Scheveningen detention centre.
Some 2000 Serbs have been killed in Kosovo that is true, but five times more Albanians were massacred, don't forget that. If you still deny that how can you ever hope to reconcile with the Albanians?
As for those who see an American hand behind everything that goes on in Kosovo: you are forgeting the Albanians. When the KLA started its war they were not supported by anyone and they were still willing to fight even against the Americans. The 'moderate' leadership of the K-Albanians led by Rugova did try to reach a deal with Serbia on less than independence for Kosovo and it was the refusal of Serbia to do so that empowered the KLA which from day one has fought for independence and nothing less than that. Now matters have gone simply too far for any K-Albanian to accept anything else even if the US were to beg us for it. If they did we would simply reject it and there would be more than enough people to fight.
And Rade, if you just look at the tones that many of us use when we refer to each other here, you would understand that Serbia and Kosovo can never be in one state again unless you want continued strife and conflict. Do you really believe that if we do not get independence we would just sit back and take it? It would be extremely naive on your part. K-Albanians have suffered too much for that and the fact that you have a Serb parliament dominated by the same people that were advocating the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo in the 1990s makes a mockery of any Serb claims that Serbia is willing to give Kosovo the broadest possible autonomy and other nonsense like that.

'Kosova will be independent and there is no other solution.'

Afrim, the situation of Kosovo is most analogous to that of the Sudeten Germans. They were the majority in a country neighbouring their 'fatherland'.

Check your history books before you effectively advocate the concept of 'lebensraum' for your people.

You persist in doing the Kosovo Albanians a disservice.

Teni

The only reason Ceku isn't in the Hague (yet) is because he's your (and the USA's) chief negotiator, and to say he shouldn't be in the Hague is a joke as he was a commander in the Croatian army during it's attack on the medak pocket which contained mainly civilians.

Lazer

Where do we start with you? If you try to keep hold of the northern part and declare unilateral independence, it'll be the death knell for Kosovo's economy. 1) there would be no way the Albanian regime would be allowed to enter the northern part, so the only way you could would be by force - hence another Blkan war (which the US could not justify backing as you would be seen as the aggressors) , and 2) read the other article on B92. Financial institutions are saying that unless you gain official recognition there will be no investment in Kosovo, because as is highly likely, Serbia would enact an economic blockade on Kosovo and Serbia is a much more important market tan Kosovo.

Has Mr. Ischinger been appointed as the spokesperson for the Troika?
Why is Mr. Wisner and the U.S. silent all of a sudden?
I remember many of you who are pro-independence beating your chests because you were confident that the U.S. was going to determine your fate.
Has the U.S. been marginalized by the E.U. and Russia? Now, wouldn’t that be a twist of fate.

Quoting(2005)Wolfgang Ischinger, "As older societies, we tend to think of ourselves as more experienced in the way societies evolve, and we tend to be skeptical of Americans who seem to think that if you believe hard enough, and you muster enough resources, you can change the world...In the last year or so, as we've engaged in discussions about the transformation of the Middle East and democracy, I have told my American friends that the region in this world that has seen the most transformation and change is Central and Eastern Europe--without shedding a drop of blood. So don't preach to us. And don't think transformative change will work according to mechanistic rules. This is very complicated. Changing the way people think often has to do with religious and cultural issues--we tend to think of them as long-term, and Americans think, Let's solve the problem in the next four years!"

I have not been using thisweb site for long time but coming back I find the same old thing, the likes of Princip that loves to copy and paste.
Post from Princip # 37,
How may times have you copy and paste same coment. I think you need to have a grasp with reality .
Kosova with or without your thoughts it will become Independent and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Rade - You may well right. But the intransigence is caused in part by comments from the US which has hyped up all expectations.

Nikshala - I wasn't talking about the roots of independence seeking, but of the belief that it can be delivered in the way that the US has presented.

They had no right to package up another nation's territory like that, and no right to say that independence was a fait accompli. I believe that this was a short-sighted and precipitous move.

Teni, let me first say that its a pleasure of arguing with you! I obviously do not agree with what you are writing but you are doing it in a polite way and I really like to have "normal" arguments with the opposite side!

But my mention of Ceku to the Hague was based on his career in Krajina mostly. I am not familiar with his role in Kosovo 98-99 therefor I cant relly comment on that.

And I do belive that independece is (unfortunately) unavailable in the long end. Not because of who has "the right" to Kosovo, but just because of simple numbers. Considering the numbers of albanians, legal or immigrants that live there it would only be problems for Serbia to keep whole Kosovo in the long end. Its sad about the people who can never return to their homes because Kosovo is unlikely to became multietnical again, and the albanians are not tolerant to the serbs there. I hope that they could treat the serbs the same as the 150 000 albanians living in Belgrade are treated but that will not happen.

So a partitin would be the best for all.

Of course full citizenship for Albania, Serbia including Kosovo, Bosnia, Croatia would also satisfy most peoples claim for free movement etc.. but it would take at least 15 years for that so its better to partition Kosovo and give them AND Republika Srpska independence.

But personally I am qurious, are the Albanians going to be satisfied with Kosovo? Don't you want Makedonija and parts of Montenegro, after all you are a LARGE minority there, in majority on some parts.

The claim that Albanians don't want to belong to albania I don't belive in. Why shouldn't them? Serbs in Republika Srpska don't want to belong to Croatia so it doesn't make sense that they don't want to unite.

To me it seems like TROIKA is intentionally loosing it credibility at early stages since this matter it is left to be decided by UNSC(USA). Of course that US are keeping quite like the Russians as the early stages of Vienna talks. US have been blackmailed by the Russians on this one. My opinion is that Ichinger at the moment is employed to discredit the EU, so the US will have the door open to intervene as usual.

Many of you in here think that the partition is the best solution. I think that partition is to complicated issue. Ischinger only mentioned the idea since it was mentioned by the journalists earlier.
If there is going to be a partition Serbia is losing again, though not everything. Before the Question for some in here that want partition;

What about the Presheva, Bujanoc and Medvegja?
What do you intend to partition?
Which parts go to who?
Are you willing to move the population?
What precedent will this present to the world?

I think that this scenario is not any feasible than Ahtisari package.
Ahtisari package gave more to minorities than to Albanian population. I never like the package since gave too much to Serbian minorities, but majority of population wanted it.

If UNSC does not find a solution we will find it. Just more time is needed to change this politicians and move ahead with our lives.

Teni, attitudes do need to change. The reality is that Serbia will not agree to reliquish sovereignty over its territory. The indicators are that self-proclaimed independence will not happen or will result in limited or no recognition.

Within that framework, the best solution needs to be found. Violence by any side will not solve anything. Cultural and economic self-determination is not a bad option for Kosovo Albanians if it means investments, jobs and a return to normality.

Teni, independence minus northern Kosovo seems to be on the table.

Full political autonomy, with economic sovereignty and the option of reintegration at a later date is probably the preferable option for all.

It's the sort of scenario that all the actors can call a win.

Of course, it's a small loss for everyone as well but not a humiliating one.

Kate

you are suggesting that albanians never knew or heard of independence, and the the US said' you know what guys, there is this thing called independence, why don't you ask for it?!!' and than the albians said 'thats sound good, hoooraayyy, we want independence, we want independence...!'.

Albanians have been asking for independence way before US supported it. Thats not going to change. Its not USA that rose the expectations and thirst for independence, but its the Milosevic regime and war crimes commited that did.

WASTE OF TIME.
Ahtisari's plan is a base for these talks, that might prove to be nothing, since there will be no partition and there will be INDEPENDENCE RECOGNITION.
You guys, have plenty of time to fantasize otherwise.

**PEACE**

To PB: Ceku was not an important commander in Croatia PB. He was a major or something in an artillery unit.

Srboslav: Thank you. To be honest though I must say that my comments are often simply emotional when the issue of Kosovo is discussed. It is simply too sensitive as I guess it is for you too. Nevertheless you are right: there is no substitute for a normal well argumented discussion whether one agrees with the other side or not.
You are right about the demography of Kosovo and I also thought that that would in the end be the determining factor. After all as they say demography is destiny. As for historical arguments, well there are always two or more sides to any of those.
As for Republica Srpska I agree with you completely. it should be allowed to decide its own future. After all what is the point of holding them against their will as part of Bosnia. In my opinnion that is an arrangement that will never work. That said though I do not really know what the ethnic make up of the Republica Srpska is and whether the other ethnic groups in it would agree with it moving away.
As for Kosovo I do not know if in the future it will ever join Albania. The possibility of partition certainly makes that a more acceptable option, although I must say that Albanians are more sceptic on creating a 'Greater Albania' than any of our neighbours who seem convinced that that is what we ultimately aim for. In the near future however that would simply not work for a host of reasons so no Albanian politician or party is even proposing it. Only some fringe parties who represent tiny portions of the electorate do. We have been seperated for nearly a century and although we are still one people Kosovo and Albania have to some extent developed distinctive identities. A federation of some sort would be the only viable unification as far as I am concerned. And don't forget that the elites in both Albania and Kosovo would stand too much to lose from unification.
As for Macedonia, the Albanians there never enjoyed the same support from Albania as the K -Albanians did. They seem to be doing fine in Macedonia and there is no reason for them to seccede. And if I take the cynical view: demography is destiny, so why seccede at all?

To Teni: : I do not think Ceku is ever gonna be indicted either, but I certainly believe he should have been. You are probably somewhat true about his history with the KLA in Kosovo, but you forgot to mention his not so white and innocent backgound from the 1995 US-supported expulsion of nearly 200,000 Serbs from the Krajina region. It is a disgrace that he, as one of the masterminders of this operation, still walks around without having to answer for this. He apparently owe a lot to his US friends in high places!

Ahtisaris' plan is in comma, isn't dead yet.Do not through it out,you will need it again by the end of the year!

Olf, you wrote this, and since I want partition I will answer MY opinions to your answer.

If there is going to be a partition Serbia is losing again, though not everything.

Not really, if Kosovo is independent and not divided, then we loose EVERYTHING

Before the Question for some in here that want partition;

What about the Presheva, Bujanoc and Medvegja?

These towns are not parts of Kosovo and not more related to the conflict than western Makedonija and souther parts of Montenegro there albanians also are in majority.

What do you intend to partition?

The parts that the serbs are not etnically cleansed would make a good start to keep, preferebly also bordering to serbia since enclaves would be hard to keep safe.

Which parts go to who?

Se my above answer, Kosovo polje, Pec (peja) and Gracanica would also be nice, but unfortunately impossible.


Are you willing to move the population?

They are already moved, against their will. I think "move" is a to nice term for cleansed... By partition some of them can atleast stay in their homes.


What precedent will this present to the world?

I think a recognized independent Kosovo would make a much more dangerous precedent than the northern parts in a diveded Kosovo.

Forget Abzhazia and Nagorno Karabach in the former soviet republics, they are of the same importance to the world as Kosovo (sorry albanian guys, but Kosovo is not that important to the west) But it would make a much more important precedent for example the Kurds in northern Iraq. Why should they want to stay in Iraq? They have oil and would do just fine without Iraq. And lets not forget the palestinians, why is their independence less important than Kosovos?
Also important would be potential independence for Tibet from China, Kashmir from India. Now we are talking about potentially SERIOUS conflicts with nuclear states involved...

JHam - I don't think that it's about pro or anti independence anymore. I think it's about the structure and process.

If the process adheres to the UN then there will be no independence, but possibly a partition (if Serbia agrees).

The EU have said that it intends to work within the UN, but the US has not said this - yet. And the US and EU most certainly don't want to be going in different directions, especially with troops on the ground.

I think JHam is right. Following all the statements by diplomats and politicians on Kosovo is like going on a rollercoaster ride. Within a week Ischinger has said that the Ahtisari plan is still on the table and that 1244 is the basis for negotiations and now he is speaking of partition. This all makes me think that he is sincere when he says that the Troika will limit its role to getting the two sides talking and nothing more. But that makes the Troika rather useless though. The two sides won't agree to anything, that much is clear, so what's the point of having this approach? In any case I think that the one option that is not off the table at all is independence of some sort for Kosovo. After all even the possibility of partitio implies independence for Kosovo minus the northern bit.

Princip: you better pray that Kosovo becomes independent otherwise we are in for a new round of trouble. Personally I am not looking forward to it. You might think differently since you apparently do not live in the area at all it seems.
And one more thing: for someone calling for a compromise you do not strike a very conciliatory tone. It seems more like you are dictating.

It has been 8 years since Serbia did not have any links economic,politic or social with Kosovo and Political Parties in Serbia still manage to use Kosovo as their weapon to come to power/their armchairs.I would really like to see Serbia's leaders if they can achieve anything or convince the electorate to vote for them ,not useing Kosovo or giving false hopes to people that they can take a land from each part of any ex republik of Yugoslavia.
It seems Belgrad will never join EU.

I'm happy to see a rather civil discussion happening today!

It seems that a major shift in happening in the negotiation process as the EU is taking a firm lead in developing a solution. The idea that partition is now on the table isn't so much a concession as it is a realistic facing of facts. The definitive line of sovereign control in Kosovo is now at the Ibar, and the EU may very well realize that integrating northern Kosovo into an independent state will be just as difficult as reintegrating an autonomous Kosovo back into Serbia. It also seems the US has tempered its overly ambitious plans for a quick and rapid Kosovo independence too without any serious institutional provisions. Cool heads and rational minds will win the day.

Prince, here you go again with your Propaganda Links. That link was nice to read but it does not have any facts, all its has are figures based on Belgrade’s heir say Propaganda and has no facts. If you need Facts go to the Official Serbian Government Web Site http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/
And stop using Belgrade’s Propaganda figures.

Teni:
"As for Republica Srpska I agree with you completely. it should be allowed to decide its own future. After all what is the point of holding them against their will as part of Bosnia. In my opinnion that is an arrangement that will never work. That said though I do not really know what the ethnic make up of the Republica Srpska is and whether the other ethnic groups in it would agree with it moving away."

Teni, precisely because you are not clear on the demography of RS, you shouldn't be giving that much away in discussion with the Serb nationalists. After all, the scale of crimes against humanity they committed in Bosnia is far higher than in Kosova, at least prior to NATO's attack, which actually allowed Milosevic-Seselj to attempt what they had previously only dreamt of. And this enormnous criminality is what created the monstrous entity called "Republika Spska". There is simply no equivalent to the historic entity of Kosova at all. There has never been any geographic, historic, cultural etc meaning to the current shape called RS.

If you simply mean that the Serb population, and the Croat population, of Bosnia should be able to secede if they wish, then I agree. But "the Serb population" is not "Republika Srpska".

The pre-war population of what is now called "RS" was approxmately 50% Serb and 50% non-Serb. Over a million non-Serbs were forced from the region, and every trace of Muslim culture, including every mosque, many dating back centuries, were demolished. The whole of east Bosnia -now all in RS - was overwhelmingly Muslim befire the cleansing of 1992 and 1995. That is almost the entire Serbian border region. If the pre-war Muslim population were able to return to their lands, then in any referndum there, they would not vote to enter Serbia. On the furthest part of Bosnia from Serbia, the so-called Bosnian Krajina, there are some barren ranges that were overwhelmingly Serb before the war, but the population were driven out by the Croatian army in 1995. These 50,000 or so Serbs could vote to join Serbia if they wished, but they would be isolated. The Banja Luka region in the north is thought of as the natural "Serb capital" of RS, but its prewar Serb majority was only 54%, the rest cleansed. Some areas around it were majority Serb, sme majority Muslim or Croat. Even if Banja Luka were to remain in RS and join Serbia, it would ave no connection to Serbia or even to cleansed eastern Bosnia, because the west and east parts of "RS" are connected by a "northern corridor" around Posavina which pre-war was almsot entirely Croat and Muslim, and so if these returness could vote, they would not vote to to join Serbia. Incidentally, many of the 160,000 Croats cleansed from Posavina are now living in the homes of Croatian Serbs cleansed by Tudjman in 1995; few Serbs who scream about Krajina wan to admit that a larg reason for the delay in Serb returns to Krajina is that the Posavina Croats are denied return to their homes in "Repblika Srpska", because if they returned, and the hundreds of thousands of Muslms also returned to east Bosnia and elsewhere, there would be no "RS."

By contrast, if every Serb refugee returned to Kosova - as is their right - they would stll make up no more than 10% of the population - deserving of all the best rights to be sure, and of a lot better than what they have got so far, but certainly with no right to block the will of the 90%

Hope this clears a few things up.

Belgrade needs to let go and Pristina needs to learn how to give up what is not really Kosovo.

If Kosovo becomes independent with the consent of Belgrade and with the sanction of the intl community, this would provide a precedent to secessionist states making it much harder for them to secede. The precedent would be: you can leave a state and become independent only if the rump state agrees. This would alleviate fears of states facing the possibility of seceding areas: Russia, Georgia, Bosnia, Sudan, Indonesia, Slovakia, Spain, etc.

As far as partition is concerned, it makes a lot of sense if it is part of a wider plan--such as that of Ahtissari. By itself, partition provides the greatest protection to the maximum number of Serbs who simply do not want to ruled by Pristina. Those not under direct Kosovo PISG rule, would be allowed to join Serbia. The remaining 50 to 70% would remain in Kosovo but afforded the rights and provisions (modified according to the new population of Serbs) that can ensure their and their culture's prosperity and safety.

As far as trading N. Kosovo for Presevo or other things, forget it. These areas are under the firm control of Belgrade so these are not up for renegotiation. Just like Kosovo will have minorities after a potential partition, so shall Serbia. Minorities must be protected everywhere.

Teni,

why should there be trouble? Surely you must realise that violence will not solve anything - is it not better to find the compromise that is inthe best interst of all in Serbia? Read the Montgomery article I refer to real link was in comment no. 39 - I was actually quite taken a back at some of the things that Montgomery made public and it would seem that this US citizen was certainly rowing back out of the dead-end having spoken to EU people in the know.

Lets face the reality violence is not required a lasting solution that means agreement by all parties is!

“Let’s just remember that Americans based in Kosova will probably never leave their bases.”

Those of you who believe that the Americans are solid friends need to educate yourselves about the American government’s concept of friendship.
America has no true friends, just acquaintances. These acquaintances are easily expendable and last as long as they determine them to be beneficial for their own personal interests.
We now hear rumblings that the USA could change from all-volunteer armed forces (because the military is spread so thin throughout the world) to mandatory enlistment. I can just imagine what great political ammunition this will give to those Democrats running for President.
I believe that it would be very easy for America to leave its bases in the Balkans.
It is far more important to remain in the White House than it is to worry about some far-off place called Kosovo.

"In the end the only solution that will lead to lasting peace in the whole region is a partition of Kosovo and independence for the albanian part and also for Republika Srpska."

Wrong. *If* partiton of Kosova ends up being the unfortunate "only way" to solve the problem, then the only possible spin-off in Bosnia, if there were one, would be a *partiton of Republika Srpska*, with "the Serb part" - ie the bits of it that had a Serb majority before the entire non-Serb half of the population there were driven out in 1992-5 - could join Serbia and all the previously "non-Serb" parts of RS be returned to Bosnia, from whom they were stolen in the Dayton crime of 1995. The "mixed bits" - probably most of it - woulod stay with multi-ethnic Bosnia. The "Serb bits" of RS mean Eastern Herzegovna, the only part of it on the Serbia border, and a few bits of rugged Dinaric range over b the Croatian border, a whole country away from Serbia. Nearly the whole of eastern Bosnia, ie, nearly the etire Serbia border region, would be lost to "RS" and Serbia in the partiton, and the previous non-Serb majority population could finally return.

As for partiton of Kosova, yes if that is the only possible compromise and the two sides agree, then so be it. But let's not talk about this partiton and then BS on about caring about the Kosova Serbs. A partiton giving north of the Ibar to Serbia only benefits Serbia, both economically and for face saving, but not the Kosova Serbs.

At present, the most secure section of the Kosova Serbs are the minority of them living north of the Ibar. In an independent Kosova under the Ahtissari Plan with wide powers for autonomous Serb municipalities, again the most secure K Serbs will be those north of the Ibar. Independence will be no treat to them at all, even if one assumed, wrongly IMO, it may be a threat to the others K Serbs. So such a partition is irrelevant to their security.

However, for the 60 percent of K Serbs living south of the Ibar, the following are possible consequences:

firstly, they becoem a minority of about 5 percent instead of about 10 percent (assuming 'returnee' numbers)

secondly, while full independence, with autnomosu Serb municipalities, would take away the reason for K Albanian hostilty to Serbs, and thus the crazies would lose any support base, an independence without Trepca may actualy increase resentment

thirdly, for the K Serbs living in the south in an independent Kosova, they would lose the great asset that north kosova currently represents for them, a large Serb body within Kosova, with its own university, hospitals etc. They would be far more isolated.

finally, independence with partiton, including partition of other states in the region as some suggest, opens up the possibility of 'greater albania' scenarios in the same way as it does 'greater serb' and 'greater croat' scenarios. It is the logic of it. If so, the K Serbs south of the Ibar would go from a 5 percent minority to a less than 1 percent minority.

DimTuc: Thank you for the information. I admit that I had no idea of the figures you provided and that I was speaking theoretically, i.e. a Serb entity should be allowed to chose whether it wants to stay in Bosnia or not. I am not trying to endorse anything Serb nationalists say.God forbid! That was not what I meant at all. And of course if R Srpska were to seccede all these issues you speak of would have to be adressed before hand.

PB: Ceku may be a lot of things but he is not the chief negotiator at all. For some reason you think that the guy is much more important than he really is. The only reason the guy is prime minister is because the prime minister had to be from Haradinaj's party. Ceku by himself is not important at all in Kosovo politics and he has no influence whatsoever. Even if he had any he is losing it during his term as prime minister.

Sorry wrong link here is the actual link I was refering to
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/in_focus.php?id=91

I have to say that I rather enjoyed this discussion about Kosovo.

Goes to show we dont need a playground style slogans and that there is some scope for understanding.

Ok, Dim Tuc, Teni, Princip, Srboslav. About the Republika Srpska and Kosovo issue and how its related.

The way I see it there are two points here. The first is the moral question, this question includes how many were murdered, ethnically cleansed and so on which leads to a given area having a majority of one particular people. Dim Tuck this is the argument you were using but I would caution you that history doesnt begin in 1998. To use the moral argument you would have to use an agreed date to start from. If Serbs for example insisted upon using 1945 as a date then Croatia would lose their (moral) right to a state immediately.

A crime that happened yesterday truly is no better or worse than the one that happened six months ago but how to decide? The moral argument is a minefield - although this wont stop those that went through trauma from using it.

The second question is one of mathematics - that is recognition of the situation on the ground and which people are in the majority and therefore their right to determine their own future.

It seems to me that international policy is based upon the second reality rather than the first - morality.

That is, the given majority - in an area will eventually gain the right to self determination if they press for it, call referendums and so on.

So on the parameter that matters - mathematics, there is a clear association between Republika Srpska and Kosovo. ie both areas have a majority that would likely change their status if given the choice.

Superficially some might say this situation rewards Serbia but for example clearly in the case of the Krajina Serbs - where Serbs had a clear majority in a defined geographical area which was cleansed, this is not the case. Today this area could have a similar status to Republika Srpska.

And in fact making the case for Republika Srpska on the basis of realpolitik (maths) means that those (Serbs) advocating such a solution are saying goodbye to Kosovo - even if they are saying hello to the partition of Kosovo.

In the end I think its so easy to get sucked into 'national' politics rather than be guided by principle. If all of us (including negotiators) were to adopt a unified principle rather than attempt to load the dice in 'our' peoples favour it would be much easier to come to compromise.

Princip:

“I have said it before there will be;
No Independence
No Illegal Declaration
No Illegal Recognition
No Violence - NATO will act!”

Nice prediction princip, but time when Serbia could say NO has ended long time ago. Don’t you, guys, realize that Serbia has entered postponed negotiations, in what insisted, and finally got with the help of Russia, totally unprepared, without any ideas how to proceed? There are numerous suggestions coming from different sources, mostly by Serbian journalists, on how could Kosovas issue be solved, proposing “partition”, “confederation”, “federation” etc. Is that what Serbian politician were waiting for? To be advised by some journalists what to negotiate in these talks?
You can see how serious are your political elite? Even you Princip, could make a proposition what to be negotiated in further talks between PR-BG, but not your politicians for sure, because they entered dear road.

"Give them all citizenship in Serbia even if they moved there in the 70:s and 80:s?"

Just as clarification!!

I have heard this argument before ( that K-Albanians came from Albania during 70 and 80s)and it is so meaningless.

In those years even a dog could not cross the border to Yugoslavia from Albania, because would have been electrocuted at the border garbled wires, let alone an exodus of this scale that the serbs arguing for.

Furthermore anyone who managed to escape Albania into Yugoslavia, in those years, made their way to US, not Kosovo.

Let's wait and see what will happen i am sure other commenters will have plenty of comments pro and anti independence.

The fact that Ischinger merely mentioned that partition is an interesting solution is diplomatic speak for saying, 'we should finally really really consider it.' I say this given that the word has been a taboo in policy circles, and that there are no other working solutions in sight, only the looming threat of a crisis in December.

The problem (for the Albanians) with an Albanian intransigent position or revolt is that if they revolt, Serbia will have a stronger case for keeping N. Kosovo. The UN could rule that Pristina is unfit to rule N. Kosovo, and could give the north to Serbia. The rest of Kosovo would get independence but the Russians would likely block a UN seat. This would not be good for Kosovo. Just think, can a non-UN member be part of NATO, of the EU? The Albanians need to be persuaded that they are shooting themselves in the foot if they don t start trying to make concessions and negotiating. Serbia needs to be persuaded that it needs to close a chapter in its history and let go of the Kosovo that is no longer hers. Serbia also needs to be persuaded that the West can make sure that Serbia will be left with a dignified outcome.

I say keep the Ahtissari plan, scratch the clause barring partition and let's all go home.

Bravo Ahmet!I am perplexed over your patience and rational, this is how a moderate human being should act!
Shame on you how even don´t bother to spell HIS name right...

Srboslav,

you shoul perhaps better start reading some of teni´s previous comments instead of praising him for being "polite"...
and even more important, I guess... is it to READ PROPERLY. I was referring to that nonsense constantly written about Russia.
I have said it the whole time, that times have changed and Russia has more to gain than to lose if supporting international law, and by the way Serbia.
you can see how eager Canada, Denmark and others suddenly are when it is about their own sovereignty in the northern ( arctic ) hemisphere... let´s see whether they will recognize "kosovah" against international law and against the UN-charter.

but I want to emphasize it and make it quite clear. there is no need for ANY partition of serbian territory. not at all.
autonomy is enough. and day by day Serbia´s position is getting stronger, so maybe you should not promote something that provokes albanian hunger for serbian territories.
if you should truly be a Serb, ...like some months ago a comment-writer known as "predictor" was trying to sell us here...and also turned out to be an Albanian.

I want Smaljovic to have my babies. She is intelligent, aware, honest, insightful - and she's a babe. Zivela Srbija!

mudri,
Do you know Ahmet Isufi?

To Jovan:

Regarding your comment that, "Russia will back down to the only superpower," are you an albanian using a Serbian alias. Russia was and always will be a superpower. Look at the direction these talks are heading, if it were not for mother Russia, Kosovo would be long lost. This is an opportunity for the Russians to assert themselves back on the world stage. They are not the Russians of the Yeltsin era. They are prosperous and eventually will control Europe with their oil and gaz. The Serbs are fortunate to have an ally
like the Russians.

This is the rhetoric everyday, one side says this one says that. Is anyone here sitting in those meetings? The only information coming out of those meeting is what the press officers are releasing. This is concerning Kosovo, not bosnia, not the Presevo Valley, and of course not Macedonia. Those areas are in other countries why tie that to Kosovo. let us stick to the subject. Of course always comment on stuff that we nothing about just to try to piss off the others. I used to to that just to make people mad who think they know what they are talking about but don't. Please folks let's use this forum to promote understanding not bring who did what and where. We are not historians we are the future.

lets see
Kosovo will never ever be a part of serbia anymore, also indepedence will arrive sometime these decade.

facing the trueth is the best thing to do.
Albanians and Serbians will never be as palestinians and israelis. I think we appreciate life more and both sides are not ready to go through wars again because it is stupid.
The Kosovo statusquo is itself a danger, it is Nirvana condition not just for Kosovo but Serbia too,
and please people when u leave a comment,dont say Serbia or Kosovo are rich because in compare to western countries they are very, very poor.
People in the balkans need to bury their nationalism and hatred and start growing intellectually

Lets suggest that the final outcome would be pleasing the majority of this forums writers. Can you really picture Kosova under Serbian rule. It took 18 years to internationalize Kosova issue (1981-1999). It will take less than 1 week to go back to a full scale war-that is 90% of the population raged against the “occupiers and colonizers.” Let’s just remember that Americans based in Kosova will probably never leave their bases.
Let’s be real and act like responsible adults. Ahtisaari plan will be the best plan for serbs-not Albanians. If Albanians would play their cards right they could easily get a lot more than Ahtisaari plan offers. However, it is always better to wait and see.

Jovane, this is not the first time I have been acused of being something that I am not. In the early 90: I was accused of both beeing a chetnik and a communist, depending on who I talked to.
To clearify even if I dont really have to, I am a serbian from Valjevo living abroad in a EU country.

And I didn't say that I agree with TENI, absolutely not. But I did say that my impression of him was that he was polite in his writing. I can't say that about the other albanians on this page. In his responses to me he has been, I cant answer to his other replies since I have not read them all. I am pretty new to this pages.

And regarding Russia they are in a win-win situation, regardless of Kosovos future.

A. If Kosovo stays within Serbia, they win because of obvious reason. They show that they are once again a true superpower

B. If they back down on their stance on Kosovo, they can go on and recognize independece for several parts of former Soviet such as Nagorno-Karabach, Dagestan?, Abzhazia and parts of Moldova.

I would really like to keep the whole Kosovo-Metohija within Serbia, and it really bothers me that violence will be rewarded. But unless some rigid aphartheid system is created that would make more problems for us in the long end. Just imagine if 2 million albanians would vote.. Then we would have an albanian prime minister. Therefore I support a partition. Just look at Srpska Republika Krajina, we lost everything there, fortunately Republika Srpska is not lost. And what should we do about Kosovo? Give them all citizenship in Serbia even if they moved there in the 70:s and 80:s? If we had acted 15 years ago it would have been a solution of returning illegal immigrants to Albania, but thats not possible now when Nato protects them.

I belive that they fool themselves thinking that it would be so good to be independent and Nato member. I have talked to some people in Poland, and they are feeling a little bothered over Nato. They were free from the Warswav pact and Soviet only to have new masters in Nato telling them wich fighter jets they can buy and wich they can not, all according to keeping up to Nato standards. Not surprisingly they must buy the American F-16 and not european Eurofighter or swedish Jas Gripen. Same goes for many other things in the Polish army. They feel like they have new masters telling them what to do.

Sorry if this was abit of topic, but I belive it has some relevance to the subjects we are discussing here such as nato

"We now hear rumblings that the USA could change from all-volunteer armed forces (because the military is spread so thin throughout the world) to mandatory enlistment. I can just imagine what great political ammunition this will give to those Democrats running for President.
I believe that it would be very easy for America to leave its bases in the Balkans. "

I live in America and I never hear this...do you just hear things? Also how about some sources? America = no draft.


America rewards those for joining the army instead of making them. Knowing you will get free education, a job, experience, and soooo much more does tend to make the on-the-edge to poverty kid join. If you don't believe me go check the US ARMY website, just google it.

The comments of Serbs backing partition of Kososova are mushrooming. Does this mean they are becoming more realist, or simply they are left with no argument? The second seems to be the case. Bottomline: in their subcoscience they are in favor of keeping at least a part of this past - robbed land. Alas, this process would bring Serbia to face with territorial disputes that will emerge. Therefore, if Serbian authorities don't see the real danger that the future will serve in response of partition, then for Serbia will work the motto that discribes Nokia "The smaller in size the bestperfomance".

Princip: you better pray that Kosovo becomes independent otherwise we are in for a new round of trouble. Personally I am not looking forward to it. You might think differently since you apparently do not live in the area at all it seems.
And one more thing: for someone calling for a compromise you do not strike a very conciliatory tone. It seems more like you are dictating.

"European Union envoy Wolfgang Ischinger said that the principles of the Troika in the Kosovo status talks are based on United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 and principles of the Contact Group.

"He said that one of the principles of the Troika is not to propose solutions for the Kosovo problem, but to convince the two sides to make compromises that will bridge the gap between their stances."

That's all very well, and as it should be, but has anyone told the US? If they are standing on the sidelines giving the impression that they will support any unilateral declaration of independence, then what motivation will the Kosovo Albanian negotiating team have to participate?

The US needs to sing from the same songsheet as the EU. They need to send a clear message that they will no longer blindly support independence.

Ahtisari plan is dead and burried finally.

In the end the only solution that will lead to lasting peace in the whole region is a partition of Kosovo and independence for the albanian part and also for Republika Srpska.

If the albanians want to join europes poorest country, fine. Let them.
If the serbs in Republika Srpska wants to join Serbia in a united state, fine let them.

I was right all along , I have said it before many times that serbia does not care about religious sites, they only want the northern Mitrovica and nothing else. They care about natural resources and not the serbs living in Kosova.
Lets see how this will play out during these 120 days.

The result is clear, There will be NO AGREEMENT between the two sides as everyone of us here knows very well and at the end the only option is the AHTISAARI PLAN which brings INDEPENDENCE to Kosova.
This 120 more days is only another way that Kosova and Serbia loose money for somethig that we all know that it will bring no agreement. It would be better for the two countries Kosova and Serbia to spend this money for people's needs.
Kosova will be independent and there is no other solution.

I think JHam is right. Following all the statements by diplomats and politicians on Kosovo is like going on a rollercoaster ride. Within a week Ischinger has said that the Ahtisari plan is still on the table and that 1244 is the basis for negotiations and now he is speaking of partition. This all makes me think that he is sincere when he says that the Troika will limit its role to getting the two sides talking and nothing more. But that makes the Troika rather useless though. The two sides won't agree to anything, that much is clear, so what's the point of having this approach? In any case I think that the one option that is not off the table at all is independence of some sort for Kosovo. After all even the possibility of partitio implies independence for Kosovo minus the northern bit.

It has been 8 years since Serbia did not have any links economic,politic or social with Kosovo and Political Parties in Serbia still manage to use Kosovo as their weapon to come to power/their armchairs.I would really like to see Serbia's leaders if they can achieve anything or convince the electorate to vote for them ,not useing Kosovo or giving false hopes to people that they can take a land from each part of any ex republik of Yugoslavia.
It seems Belgrad will never join EU.

Kate

you are suggesting that albanians never knew or heard of independence, and the the US said' you know what guys, there is this thing called independence, why don't you ask for it?!!' and than the albians said 'thats sound good, hoooraayyy, we want independence, we want independence...!'.

Albanians have been asking for independence way before US supported it. Thats not going to change. Its not USA that rose the expectations and thirst for independence, but its the Milosevic regime and war crimes commited that did.

WASTE OF TIME.
Ahtisari's plan is a base for these talks, that might prove to be nothing, since there will be no partition and there will be INDEPENDENCE RECOGNITION.
You guys, have plenty of time to fantasize otherwise.

**PEACE**

Absolutely right, Kate.

The Kosovo Albanian leadership has become a political liability for this Administration, as have various other unsavoury 'clients' in the past.

Srboslav, I suspect you'll get your wish.

The Hague might not be a bad option for Cheku, the way things are going. At least his life won't be in danger there.

The fact that Ischinger merely mentioned that partition is an interesting solution is diplomatic speak for saying, 'we should finally really really consider it.' I say this given that the word has been a taboo in policy circles, and that there are no other working solutions in sight, only the looming threat of a crisis in December.

The problem (for the Albanians) with an Albanian intransigent position or revolt is that if they revolt, Serbia will have a stronger case for keeping N. Kosovo. The UN could rule that Pristina is unfit to rule N. Kosovo, and could give the north to Serbia. The rest of Kosovo would get independence but the Russians would likely block a UN seat. This would not be good for Kosovo. Just think, can a non-UN member be part of NATO, of the EU? The Albanians need to be persuaded that they are shooting themselves in the foot if they don t start trying to make concessions and negotiating. Serbia needs to be persuaded that it needs to close a chapter in its history and let go of the Kosovo that is no longer hers. Serbia also needs to be persuaded that the West can make sure that Serbia will be left with a dignified outcome.

I say keep the Ahtissari plan, scratch the clause barring partition and let's all go home.

Srboslav: I do not think Ceku is ever gonna be indicted (nor do I think he should be indicted) for anything that hapenned in Kosovo. You guys seem to place a lot of importance on him as the Chief of Staff of the KLA etc, but he only got that position late in the war, in 1999, and he was dealing with the reorganisation of the KLA and such. He was not really involved in the day to day fighting, but was simply trying to build the KLA into a regular army, rather than a guerrilla one. Anyone who knows the nature of the KLA will tell you that field commanders or zone commanderslike Haradinaj or Remi or Limaj did not really care that much about Ceku or Thaci or anyone for that matter.And if Ceku goes to the Hague I wonder how many Serb police chiefs and army commanders would fill up the Scheveningen detention centre.
Some 2000 Serbs have been killed in Kosovo that is true, but five times more Albanians were massacred, don't forget that. If you still deny that how can you ever hope to reconcile with the Albanians?
As for those who see an American hand behind everything that goes on in Kosovo: you are forgeting the Albanians. When the KLA started its war they were not supported by anyone and they were still willing to fight even against the Americans. The 'moderate' leadership of the K-Albanians led by Rugova did try to reach a deal with Serbia on less than independence for Kosovo and it was the refusal of Serbia to do so that empowered the KLA which from day one has fought for independence and nothing less than that. Now matters have gone simply too far for any K-Albanian to accept anything else even if the US were to beg us for it. If they did we would simply reject it and there would be more than enough people to fight.
And Rade, if you just look at the tones that many of us use when we refer to each other here, you would understand that Serbia and Kosovo can never be in one state again unless you want continued strife and conflict. Do you really believe that if we do not get independence we would just sit back and take it? It would be extremely naive on your part. K-Albanians have suffered too much for that and the fact that you have a Serb parliament dominated by the same people that were advocating the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo in the 1990s makes a mockery of any Serb claims that Serbia is willing to give Kosovo the broadest possible autonomy and other nonsense like that.

"In the end the only solution that will lead to lasting peace in the whole region is a partition of Kosovo and independence for the albanian part and also for Republika Srpska."

Wrong. *If* partiton of Kosova ends up being the unfortunate "only way" to solve the problem, then the only possible spin-off in Bosnia, if there were one, would be a *partiton of Republika Srpska*, with "the Serb part" - ie the bits of it that had a Serb majority before the entire non-Serb half of the population there were driven out in 1992-5 - could join Serbia and all the previously "non-Serb" parts of RS be returned to Bosnia, from whom they were stolen in the Dayton crime of 1995. The "mixed bits" - probably most of it - woulod stay with multi-ethnic Bosnia. The "Serb bits" of RS mean Eastern Herzegovna, the only part of it on the Serbia border, and a few bits of rugged Dinaric range over b the Croatian border, a whole country away from Serbia. Nearly the whole of eastern Bosnia, ie, nearly the etire Serbia border region, would be lost to "RS" and Serbia in the partiton, and the previous non-Serb majority population could finally return.

As for partiton of Kosova, yes if that is the only possible compromise and the two sides agree, then so be it. But let's not talk about this partiton and then BS on about caring about the Kosova Serbs. A partiton giving north of the Ibar to Serbia only benefits Serbia, both economically and for face saving, but not the Kosova Serbs.

At present, the most secure section of the Kosova Serbs are the minority of them living north of the Ibar. In an independent Kosova under the Ahtissari Plan with wide powers for autonomous Serb municipalities, again the most secure K Serbs will be those north of the Ibar. Independence will be no treat to them at all, even if one assumed, wrongly IMO, it may be a threat to the others K Serbs. So such a partition is irrelevant to their security.

However, for the 60 percent of K Serbs living south of the Ibar, the following are possible consequences:

firstly, they becoem a minority of about 5 percent instead of about 10 percent (assuming 'returnee' numbers)

secondly, while full independence, with autnomosu Serb municipalities, would take away the reason for K Albanian hostilty to Serbs, and thus the crazies would lose any support base, an independence without Trepca may actualy increase resentment

thirdly, for the K Serbs living in the south in an independent Kosova, they would lose the great asset that north kosova currently represents for them, a large Serb body within Kosova, with its own university, hospitals etc. They would be far more isolated.

finally, independence with partiton, including partition of other states in the region as some suggest, opens up the possibility of 'greater albania' scenarios in the same way as it does 'greater serb' and 'greater croat' scenarios. It is the logic of it. If so, the K Serbs south of the Ibar would go from a 5 percent minority to a less than 1 percent minority.

To PB: Ceku was not an important commander in Croatia PB. He was a major or something in an artillery unit.

Srboslav: Thank you. To be honest though I must say that my comments are often simply emotional when the issue of Kosovo is discussed. It is simply too sensitive as I guess it is for you too. Nevertheless you are right: there is no substitute for a normal well argumented discussion whether one agrees with the other side or not.
You are right about the demography of Kosovo and I also thought that that would in the end be the determining factor. After all as they say demography is destiny. As for historical arguments, well there are always two or more sides to any of those.
As for Republica Srpska I agree with you completely. it should be allowed to decide its own future. After all what is the point of holding them against their will as part of Bosnia. In my opinnion that is an arrangement that will never work. That said though I do not really know what the ethnic make up of the Republica Srpska is and whether the other ethnic groups in it would agree with it moving away.
As for Kosovo I do not know if in the future it will ever join Albania. The possibility of partition certainly makes that a more acceptable option, although I must say that Albanians are more sceptic on creating a 'Greater Albania' than any of our neighbours who seem convinced that that is what we ultimately aim for. In the near future however that would simply not work for a host of reasons so no Albanian politician or party is even proposing it. Only some fringe parties who represent tiny portions of the electorate do. We have been seperated for nearly a century and although we are still one people Kosovo and Albania have to some extent developed distinctive identities. A federation of some sort would be the only viable unification as far as I am concerned. And don't forget that the elites in both Albania and Kosovo would stand too much to lose from unification.
As for Macedonia, the Albanians there never enjoyed the same support from Albania as the K -Albanians did. They seem to be doing fine in Macedonia and there is no reason for them to seccede. And if I take the cynical view: demography is destiny, so why seccede at all?

To me it seems like TROIKA is intentionally loosing it credibility at early stages since this matter it is left to be decided by UNSC(USA). Of course that US are keeping quite like the Russians as the early stages of Vienna talks. US have been blackmailed by the Russians on this one. My opinion is that Ichinger at the moment is employed to discredit the EU, so the US will have the door open to intervene as usual.

Many of you in here think that the partition is the best solution. I think that partition is to complicated issue. Ischinger only mentioned the idea since it was mentioned by the journalists earlier.
If there is going to be a partition Serbia is losing again, though not everything. Before the Question for some in here that want partition;

What about the Presheva, Bujanoc and Medvegja?
What do you intend to partition?
Which parts go to who?
Are you willing to move the population?
What precedent will this present to the world?

I think that this scenario is not any feasible than Ahtisari package.
Ahtisari package gave more to minorities than to Albanian population. I never like the package since gave too much to Serbian minorities, but majority of population wanted it.

If UNSC does not find a solution we will find it. Just more time is needed to change this politicians and move ahead with our lives.

Teni:
"As for Republica Srpska I agree with you completely. it should be allowed to decide its own future. After all what is the point of holding them against their will as part of Bosnia. In my opinnion that is an arrangement that will never work. That said though I do not really know what the ethnic make up of the Republica Srpska is and whether the other ethnic groups in it would agree with it moving away."

Teni, precisely because you are not clear on the demography of RS, you shouldn't be giving that much away in discussion with the Serb nationalists. After all, the scale of crimes against humanity they committed in Bosnia is far higher than in Kosova, at least prior to NATO's attack, which actually allowed Milosevic-Seselj to attempt what they had previously only dreamt of. And this enormnous criminality is what created the monstrous entity called "Republika Spska". There is simply no equivalent to the historic entity of Kosova at all. There has never been any geographic, historic, cultural etc meaning to the current shape called RS.

If you simply mean that the Serb population, and the Croat population, of Bosnia should be able to secede if they wish, then I agree. But "the Serb population" is not "Republika Srpska".

The pre-war population of what is now called "RS" was approxmately 50% Serb and 50% non-Serb. Over a million non-Serbs were forced from the region, and every trace of Muslim culture, including every mosque, many dating back centuries, were demolished. The whole of east Bosnia -now all in RS - was overwhelmingly Muslim befire the cleansing of 1992 and 1995. That is almost the entire Serbian border region. If the pre-war Muslim population were able to return to their lands, then in any referndum there, they would not vote to enter Serbia. On the furthest part of Bosnia from Serbia, the so-called Bosnian Krajina, there are some barren ranges that were overwhelmingly Serb before the war, but the population were driven out by the Croatian army in 1995. These 50,000 or so Serbs could vote to join Serbia if they wished, but they would be isolated. The Banja Luka region in the north is thought of as the natural "Serb capital" of RS, but its prewar Serb majority was only 54%, the rest cleansed. Some areas around it were majority Serb, sme majority Muslim or Croat. Even if Banja Luka were to remain in RS and join Serbia, it would ave no connection to Serbia or even to cleansed eastern Bosnia, because the west and east parts of "RS" are connected by a "northern corridor" around Posavina which pre-war was almsot entirely Croat and Muslim, and so if these returness could vote, they would not vote to to join Serbia. Incidentally, many of the 160,000 Croats cleansed from Posavina are now living in the homes of Croatian Serbs cleansed by Tudjman in 1995; few Serbs who scream about Krajina wan to admit that a larg reason for the delay in Serb returns to Krajina is that the Posavina Croats are denied return to their homes in "Repblika Srpska", because if they returned, and the hundreds of thousands of Muslms also returned to east Bosnia and elsewhere, there would be no "RS."

By contrast, if every Serb refugee returned to Kosova - as is their right - they would stll make up no more than 10% of the population - deserving of all the best rights to be sure, and of a lot better than what they have got so far, but certainly with no right to block the will of the 90%

Hope this clears a few things up.

DimTuc: Thank you for the information. I admit that I had no idea of the figures you provided and that I was speaking theoretically, i.e. a Serb entity should be allowed to chose whether it wants to stay in Bosnia or not. I am not trying to endorse anything Serb nationalists say.God forbid! That was not what I meant at all. And of course if R Srpska were to seccede all these issues you speak of would have to be adressed before hand.

PB: Ceku may be a lot of things but he is not the chief negotiator at all. For some reason you think that the guy is much more important than he really is. The only reason the guy is prime minister is because the prime minister had to be from Haradinaj's party. Ceku by himself is not important at all in Kosovo politics and he has no influence whatsoever. Even if he had any he is losing it during his term as prime minister.

I would suggest those who have not yet read Montgomery's new article on B92 "Frozen Conflicts" http://www.kosovocompromise.com/pdf/print/kosovo_tommorow/3-01_1%20The%20Kosovo%20Solution%20Series.pdf
to do so now because it gives quite a bit more insight in terms of where the EU is planning to guide these talks towards if no compromise occurs.

I have said it before there will be;
No Independence
No Illegal Declaration
No Illegal Recognition
No Violence - NATO will act!

So lets get on with finding a "compromise" that is agreeable for all and ensuring all in Serbia benefit - including it's province of Kosovo & Metohija.

I have not been using thisweb site for long time but coming back I find the same old thing, the likes of Princip that loves to copy and paste.
Post from Princip # 37,
How may times have you copy and paste same coment. I think you need to have a grasp with reality .
Kosova with or without your thoughts it will become Independent and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Ahtisaris' plan is in comma, isn't dead yet.Do not through it out,you will need it again by the end of the year!

""We, as the Troika, will not give any proposals, partition or anything else. We stated clearly to both sides that the principle of the Troika is to accept every solution which the two sides are able to reach. That includes all options,” Ischinger said"

- get ready for intensive direct talks to brainstorm all options possible. There are many possible solutions here are just a few;
http://www.kosovocompromise.com/pages/kosovo_tommorow/sub_links/1/1.htm
Just because different options are thought of in a brainstorming session need not imply acceptance of any but these talks do need to be held so that everyone can think out of the "conflict" box that is always been threatened.

Win-win is possible by following a process of open and genuine (without prejudice) talks that do consider all options possible. This was denied by the bogus talks where not one second was actually given over to actual status - Ahtisaari just pushing his ICG pre-determined plans - hardly "negotiation" and a very poor example of "mediation"!

This is a great opportunity and if all truly believe that EU membership is a future goal then in all honesty trust and reconciliation must be an objective that should be formulated as an objective as part of the solution.

The EU has clearly told the US administration that they will not bypass the UN - this has been evident from the onset and should be no surprise. The fact that these talks are being held is clear of this case. Thus a solution that can pass in the UN must be found else the EU will just walk and pass the buck back to the parties concerned.

The US are in dire straits and equally need a credible way out that does not mean even greater loss of face since they have far too much on their plate and much discourse within NATO over current operations and it's own administration what with Rove about to resign. The US for all their huff & puff are in no position to bypass the UN especially given that they formulated and agreed 1244 which again has been noted as the principle of the talks. No one can escape the obligation of 1244 and its reaffirmation of Serbia's Sovereignity - this is not a historical myth but something that was agreed 8 years ago to end conflict.

My long held view is that I would not wish partition of the Sovereign & Democratic European State - Republic of Serbia be it 15, 5 or 1 % - this is a bad signal to unrest in any part of the world and equally goes against the EU grain of a "borderless society" and "inclusiveness". However, if a formula is agreed by both parties - whatever that is then clearly it would be passed in the UN.

It is good to look a fresh at what is already in the public domain and I would suggest all commentators look at the article; The Kosovo
Solution Series
Broad framework, many roads. By Aleksandar Mitic & Jan Oberg, .
http://www.kosovocompromise.com/pdf/print/kosovo_tommorow/3-01_1%20The%20Kosovo%20Solution%20Series.pdf

Reflect on page 6; The solution belongs to those who have the conflict

"It is a basic professional principle underlying the work of TFF that it analyses and mitigates conflicts; it does not present its own solutions. The philosophy is simple:
since conflicts belong to those who fight them, solutions should also belong to them.
All we can do as outsiders is to assist parties in finding solutions acceptable for all.
So, whether the parties together can find ways to create a Kosovo that is independent,
a Kosovo that is part of Serbia-Montenegro or something else is not our professional
concern.
What we do point out is that a conflict is solved only when..."
- all that is being said by the Troika suggests that they are in now in tune with the message eloquently put forth in this document. Hardly surprising then that we now have the EU formulating and spearheading the troika rather then all being dragged along by a imperialistic US. The talks are heading in the right direction but the difficult issues lie ahead and in all reality 4 months is a very short time so patience is required but much can be achieved in the next 4 months.

Let's wait and see what will happen i am sure other commenters will have plenty of comments pro and anti independence.

JHam - I don't think that it's about pro or anti independence anymore. I think it's about the structure and process.

If the process adheres to the UN then there will be no independence, but possibly a partition (if Serbia agrees).

The EU have said that it intends to work within the UN, but the US has not said this - yet. And the US and EU most certainly don't want to be going in different directions, especially with troops on the ground.

I agree to JHam, it´s always a little bit smarter to look what the future brings instead of "predicting" what will happen ( "Russia will back down before the one and only global superpower" )

as I said it so many times, let´s see what future brings.

I am confident.

Kate, I suspect the US deliberately wants to be seen to be on the sidelines. It's a powerful message to the Kosovo Albanian political leadership to cooperate.

The stakes have been raised for the US (energy security, missle shields, the dollar, trade wars, etc.) and they're getting tired of the Kosovo Albanian leadership's intransigence, which could drag the US into a quagmire.

I bet the US is telling Cheku et al that if they insist on 'independence or nothing', they'll end up with nothing.

Ahmed and Afrim, you are the masters of spin.

Keep up the good work, your services will be required when the time comes to spin the final outcome, 'autonomy with elements of sovereignty' into 'independence'.

Jovan, I don not think that Russia will back down on this one. Its their chance to show the world that there are more than one superpower in charge of European business.


Rade, I sincerely hope that you are right, Nothing would make me happier! well, exept one thing, a little call from Bush to Carla del Ponte telling her that Ceku will be charged by the Hague tribunal! Then the indictment would be headlines the next day..

Rade - You may well right. But the intransigence is caused in part by comments from the US which has hyped up all expectations.

Teni, independence minus northern Kosovo seems to be on the table.

Full political autonomy, with economic sovereignty and the option of reintegration at a later date is probably the preferable option for all.

It's the sort of scenario that all the actors can call a win.

Of course, it's a small loss for everyone as well but not a humiliating one.

Has Mr. Ischinger been appointed as the spokesperson for the Troika?
Why is Mr. Wisner and the U.S. silent all of a sudden?
I remember many of you who are pro-independence beating your chests because you were confident that the U.S. was going to determine your fate.
Has the U.S. been marginalized by the E.U. and Russia? Now, wouldn’t that be a twist of fate.

Quoting(2005)Wolfgang Ischinger, "As older societies, we tend to think of ourselves as more experienced in the way societies evolve, and we tend to be skeptical of Americans who seem to think that if you believe hard enough, and you muster enough resources, you can change the world...In the last year or so, as we've engaged in discussions about the transformation of the Middle East and democracy, I have told my American friends that the region in this world that has seen the most transformation and change is Central and Eastern Europe--without shedding a drop of blood. So don't preach to us. And don't think transformative change will work according to mechanistic rules. This is very complicated. Changing the way people think often has to do with religious and cultural issues--we tend to think of them as long-term, and Americans think, Let's solve the problem in the next four years!"

I'm happy to see a rather civil discussion happening today!

It seems that a major shift in happening in the negotiation process as the EU is taking a firm lead in developing a solution. The idea that partition is now on the table isn't so much a concession as it is a realistic facing of facts. The definitive line of sovereign control in Kosovo is now at the Ibar, and the EU may very well realize that integrating northern Kosovo into an independent state will be just as difficult as reintegrating an autonomous Kosovo back into Serbia. It also seems the US has tempered its overly ambitious plans for a quick and rapid Kosovo independence too without any serious institutional provisions. Cool heads and rational minds will win the day.

Prince, here you go again with your Propaganda Links. That link was nice to read but it does not have any facts, all its has are figures based on Belgrade’s heir say Propaganda and has no facts. If you need Facts go to the Official Serbian Government Web Site http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/
And stop using Belgrade’s Propaganda figures.

Teni,

why should there be trouble? Surely you must realise that violence will not solve anything - is it not better to find the compromise that is inthe best interst of all in Serbia? Read the Montgomery article I refer to real link was in comment no. 39 - I was actually quite taken a back at some of the things that Montgomery made public and it would seem that this US citizen was certainly rowing back out of the dead-end having spoken to EU people in the know.

Lets face the reality violence is not required a lasting solution that means agreement by all parties is!

Ahmet, no you are not right.

While I can't speak for all serbs my own opinion is that serbs should get the northern part, not because of Trepca or its riches, but because thats there the serbs which are not etnically cleansed lives.

As much as I would like to keep Kosovo Polje and the manastaries I personally belives that its more important with people than dead things. Be it a monument, church, manastarie of historical value, but no serbs live there.

I do hope that the albanians will show a little restraint and not do a "taliban" thing and destroy this monument such as the talibans destroyed the Budha Statues but I am skeptical. To many churches and manastaries have been destroyed just because they are serbian..

BUT, its more important with peoples lives than buildings, therefor I say as a realistical solution that we the serbs get the northern part, and the albanians the rest. Its not what I emotionally want, then you could all move back to albania were you came from in the 70:s and 80:s but its a realistic solution. Of course it would be political suicide for a serbian politician to admit this, as it would be for an albanian politician aswell.

But history in Balkan has shown that no compromises usually does not lead to victory, exept in Croatia where etnichal cleansing led to croat victory. But this was almost 15 years ago, today its not an option. There are no more Milosevic, if he had been still in power you would already been having independence for Kosovo. So despite all hate for Sloba Milosevic, if it wasn't for his stubborness against NATO/west nobody in the west would have cared for the albanians, even less internvened. After all, in comparison to the Kurds in oil rich Kurdistan, Kosovo has little valure to the west. (of course many countries would like to expell the refugees back to Kosovo and therefor has an interest in independent Kosovo)

Nikshala - I wasn't talking about the roots of independence seeking, but of the belief that it can be delivered in the way that the US has presented.

They had no right to package up another nation's territory like that, and no right to say that independence was a fait accompli. I believe that this was a short-sighted and precipitous move.

to Ahmet Istufi - you are only right in your own mind. Not one time has anyone mentioned religion and you continue to post such atrocities.

There have been times where you showed a little bit of your human side, (like when apologizing to Kate), but, you and those like you are the reason Serbia is in the state it's in TODAY!

There isn't one single country/nation in the world that would not allow a person of another heritage to reside on "their land" just as long as everything was done through the proper channels - apply for citizenship, pay taxes, respect the people/heritage of the land. You on the other hand, have no respect for the land, heritage, people NOTHING that Serbia is. You still have this fantasy of the greater albania, which will not happen!

"Keep your friends close & your enemies closer"

Teni, let me first say that its a pleasure of arguing with you! I obviously do not agree with what you are writing but you are doing it in a polite way and I really like to have "normal" arguments with the opposite side!

But my mention of Ceku to the Hague was based on his career in Krajina mostly. I am not familiar with his role in Kosovo 98-99 therefor I cant relly comment on that.

And I do belive that independece is (unfortunately) unavailable in the long end. Not because of who has "the right" to Kosovo, but just because of simple numbers. Considering the numbers of albanians, legal or immigrants that live there it would only be problems for Serbia to keep whole Kosovo in the long end. Its sad about the people who can never return to their homes because Kosovo is unlikely to became multietnical again, and the albanians are not tolerant to the serbs there. I hope that they could treat the serbs the same as the 150 000 albanians living in Belgrade are treated but that will not happen.

So a partitin would be the best for all.

Of course full citizenship for Albania, Serbia including Kosovo, Bosnia, Croatia would also satisfy most peoples claim for free movement etc.. but it would take at least 15 years for that so its better to partition Kosovo and give them AND Republika Srpska independence.

But personally I am qurious, are the Albanians going to be satisfied with Kosovo? Don't you want Makedonija and parts of Montenegro, after all you are a LARGE minority there, in majority on some parts.

The claim that Albanians don't want to belong to albania I don't belive in. Why shouldn't them? Serbs in Republika Srpska don't want to belong to Croatia so it doesn't make sense that they don't want to unite.

'Kosova will be independent and there is no other solution.'

Afrim, the situation of Kosovo is most analogous to that of the Sudeten Germans. They were the majority in a country neighbouring their 'fatherland'.

Check your history books before you effectively advocate the concept of 'lebensraum' for your people.

You persist in doing the Kosovo Albanians a disservice.

Teni

The only reason Ceku isn't in the Hague (yet) is because he's your (and the USA's) chief negotiator, and to say he shouldn't be in the Hague is a joke as he was a commander in the Croatian army during it's attack on the medak pocket which contained mainly civilians.

Lazer

Where do we start with you? If you try to keep hold of the northern part and declare unilateral independence, it'll be the death knell for Kosovo's economy. 1) there would be no way the Albanian regime would be allowed to enter the northern part, so the only way you could would be by force - hence another Blkan war (which the US could not justify backing as you would be seen as the aggressors) , and 2) read the other article on B92. Financial institutions are saying that unless you gain official recognition there will be no investment in Kosovo, because as is highly likely, Serbia would enact an economic blockade on Kosovo and Serbia is a much more important market tan Kosovo.

To Teni: : I do not think Ceku is ever gonna be indicted either, but I certainly believe he should have been. You are probably somewhat true about his history with the KLA in Kosovo, but you forgot to mention his not so white and innocent backgound from the 1995 US-supported expulsion of nearly 200,000 Serbs from the Krajina region. It is a disgrace that he, as one of the masterminders of this operation, still walks around without having to answer for this. He apparently owe a lot to his US friends in high places!

Belgrade needs to let go and Pristina needs to learn how to give up what is not really Kosovo.

If Kosovo becomes independent with the consent of Belgrade and with the sanction of the intl community, this would provide a precedent to secessionist states making it much harder for them to secede. The precedent would be: you can leave a state and become independent only if the rump state agrees. This would alleviate fears of states facing the possibility of seceding areas: Russia, Georgia, Bosnia, Sudan, Indonesia, Slovakia, Spain, etc.

As far as partition is concerned, it makes a lot of sense if it is part of a wider plan--such as that of Ahtissari. By itself, partition provides the greatest protection to the maximum number of Serbs who simply do not want to ruled by Pristina. Those not under direct Kosovo PISG rule, would be allowed to join Serbia. The remaining 50 to 70% would remain in Kosovo but afforded the rights and provisions (modified according to the new population of Serbs) that can ensure their and their culture's prosperity and safety.

As far as trading N. Kosovo for Presevo or other things, forget it. These areas are under the firm control of Belgrade so these are not up for renegotiation. Just like Kosovo will have minorities after a potential partition, so shall Serbia. Minorities must be protected everywhere.

Teni, attitudes do need to change. The reality is that Serbia will not agree to reliquish sovereignty over its territory. The indicators are that self-proclaimed independence will not happen or will result in limited or no recognition.

Within that framework, the best solution needs to be found. Violence by any side will not solve anything. Cultural and economic self-determination is not a bad option for Kosovo Albanians if it means investments, jobs and a return to normality.

Sorry wrong link here is the actual link I was refering to
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/in_focus.php?id=91

Olf, you wrote this, and since I want partition I will answer MY opinions to your answer.

If there is going to be a partition Serbia is losing again, though not everything.

Not really, if Kosovo is independent and not divided, then we loose EVERYTHING

Before the Question for some in here that want partition;

What about the Presheva, Bujanoc and Medvegja?

These towns are not parts of Kosovo and not more related to the conflict than western Makedonija and souther parts of Montenegro there albanians also are in majority.

What do you intend to partition?

The parts that the serbs are not etnically cleansed would make a good start to keep, preferebly also bordering to serbia since enclaves would be hard to keep safe.

Which parts go to who?

Se my above answer, Kosovo polje, Pec (peja) and Gracanica would also be nice, but unfortunately impossible.


Are you willing to move the population?

They are already moved, against their will. I think "move" is a to nice term for cleansed... By partition some of them can atleast stay in their homes.


What precedent will this present to the world?

I think a recognized independent Kosovo would make a much more dangerous precedent than the northern parts in a diveded Kosovo.

Forget Abzhazia and Nagorno Karabach in the former soviet republics, they are of the same importance to the world as Kosovo (sorry albanian guys, but Kosovo is not that important to the west) But it would make a much more important precedent for example the Kurds in northern Iraq. Why should they want to stay in Iraq? They have oil and would do just fine without Iraq. And lets not forget the palestinians, why is their independence less important than Kosovos?
Also important would be potential independence for Tibet from China, Kashmir from India. Now we are talking about potentially SERIOUS conflicts with nuclear states involved...

Bravo Ahmet!I am perplexed over your patience and rational, this is how a moderate human being should act!
Shame on you how even don´t bother to spell HIS name right...

Srboslav,

you shoul perhaps better start reading some of teni´s previous comments instead of praising him for being "polite"...
and even more important, I guess... is it to READ PROPERLY. I was referring to that nonsense constantly written about Russia.
I have said it the whole time, that times have changed and Russia has more to gain than to lose if supporting international law, and by the way Serbia.
you can see how eager Canada, Denmark and others suddenly are when it is about their own sovereignty in the northern ( arctic ) hemisphere... let´s see whether they will recognize "kosovah" against international law and against the UN-charter.

but I want to emphasize it and make it quite clear. there is no need for ANY partition of serbian territory. not at all.
autonomy is enough. and day by day Serbia´s position is getting stronger, so maybe you should not promote something that provokes albanian hunger for serbian territories.
if you should truly be a Serb, ...like some months ago a comment-writer known as "predictor" was trying to sell us here...and also turned out to be an Albanian.

mudri,
Do you know Ahmet Isufi?

I have to say that I rather enjoyed this discussion about Kosovo.

Goes to show we dont need a playground style slogans and that there is some scope for understanding.

Ok, Dim Tuc, Teni, Princip, Srboslav. About the Republika Srpska and Kosovo issue and how its related.

The way I see it there are two points here. The first is the moral question, this question includes how many were murdered, ethnically cleansed and so on which leads to a given area having a majority of one particular people. Dim Tuck this is the argument you were using but I would caution you that history doesnt begin in 1998. To use the moral argument you would have to use an agreed date to start from. If Serbs for example insisted upon using 1945 as a date then Croatia would lose their (moral) right to a state immediately.

A crime that happened yesterday truly is no better or worse than the one that happened six months ago but how to decide? The moral argument is a minefield - although this wont stop those that went through trauma from using it.

The second question is one of mathematics - that is recognition of the situation on the ground and which people are in the majority and therefore their right to determine their own future.

It seems to me that international policy is based upon the second reality rather than the first - morality.

That is, the given majority - in an area will eventually gain the right to self determination if they press for it, call referendums and so on.

So on the parameter that matters - mathematics, there is a clear association between Republika Srpska and Kosovo. ie both areas have a majority that would likely change their status if given the choice.

Superficially some might say this situation rewards Serbia but for example clearly in the case of the Krajina Serbs - where Serbs had a clear majority in a defined geographical area which was cleansed, this is not the case. Today this area could have a similar status to Republika Srpska.

And in fact making the case for Republika Srpska on the basis of realpolitik (maths) means that those (Serbs) advocating such a solution are saying goodbye to Kosovo - even if they are saying hello to the partition of Kosovo.

In the end I think its so easy to get sucked into 'national' politics rather than be guided by principle. If all of us (including negotiators) were to adopt a unified principle rather than attempt to load the dice in 'our' peoples favour it would be much easier to come to compromise.

To Jovan:

Regarding your comment that, "Russia will back down to the only superpower," are you an albanian using a Serbian alias. Russia was and always will be a superpower. Look at the direction these talks are heading, if it were not for mother Russia, Kosovo would be long lost. This is an opportunity for the Russians to assert themselves back on the world stage. They are not the Russians of the Yeltsin era. They are prosperous and eventually will control Europe with their oil and gaz. The Serbs are fortunate to have an ally
like the Russians.

This is the rhetoric everyday, one side says this one says that. Is anyone here sitting in those meetings? The only information coming out of those meeting is what the press officers are releasing. This is concerning Kosovo, not bosnia, not the Presevo Valley, and of course not Macedonia. Those areas are in other countries why tie that to Kosovo. let us stick to the subject. Of course always comment on stuff that we nothing about just to try to piss off the others. I used to to that just to make people mad who think they know what they are talking about but don't. Please folks let's use this forum to promote understanding not bring who did what and where. We are not historians we are the future.

I want Smaljovic to have my babies. She is intelligent, aware, honest, insightful - and she's a babe. Zivela Srbija!

lets see
Kosovo will never ever be a part of serbia anymore, also indepedence will arrive sometime these decade.

facing the trueth is the best thing to do.
Albanians and Serbians will never be as palestinians and israelis. I think we appreciate life more and both sides are not ready to go through wars again because it is stupid.
The Kosovo statusquo is itself a danger, it is Nirvana condition not just for Kosovo but Serbia too,
and please people when u leave a comment,dont say Serbia or Kosovo are rich because in compare to western countries they are very, very poor.
People in the balkans need to bury their nationalism and hatred and start growing intellectually

Lets suggest that the final outcome would be pleasing the majority of this forums writers. Can you really picture Kosova under Serbian rule. It took 18 years to internationalize Kosova issue (1981-1999). It will take less than 1 week to go back to a full scale war-that is 90% of the population raged against the “occupiers and colonizers.” Let’s just remember that Americans based in Kosova will probably never leave their bases.
Let’s be real and act like responsible adults. Ahtisaari plan will be the best plan for serbs-not Albanians. If Albanians would play their cards right they could easily get a lot more than Ahtisaari plan offers. However, it is always better to wait and see.

Princip:

“I have said it before there will be;
No Independence
No Illegal Declaration
No Illegal Recognition
No Violence - NATO will act!”

Nice prediction princip, but time when Serbia could say NO has ended long time ago. Don’t you, guys, realize that Serbia has entered postponed negotiations, in what insisted, and finally got with the help of Russia, totally unprepared, without any ideas how to proceed? There are numerous suggestions coming from different sources, mostly by Serbian journalists, on how could Kosovas issue be solved, proposing “partition”, “confederation”, “federation” etc. Is that what Serbian politician were waiting for? To be advised by some journalists what to negotiate in these talks?
You can see how serious are your political elite? Even you Princip, could make a proposition what to be negotiated in further talks between PR-BG, but not your politicians for sure, because they entered dear road.

“Let’s just remember that Americans based in Kosova will probably never leave their bases.”

Those of you who believe that the Americans are solid friends need to educate yourselves about the American government’s concept of friendship.
America has no true friends, just acquaintances. These acquaintances are easily expendable and last as long as they determine them to be beneficial for their own personal interests.
We now hear rumblings that the USA could change from all-volunteer armed forces (because the military is spread so thin throughout the world) to mandatory enlistment. I can just imagine what great political ammunition this will give to those Democrats running for President.
I believe that it would be very easy for America to leave its bases in the Balkans.
It is far more important to remain in the White House than it is to worry about some far-off place called Kosovo.

Jovane, this is not the first time I have been acused of being something that I am not. In the early 90: I was accused of both beeing a chetnik and a communist, depending on who I talked to.
To clearify even if I dont really have to, I am a serbian from Valjevo living abroad in a EU country.

And I didn't say that I agree with TENI, absolutely not. But I did say that my impression of him was that he was polite in his writing. I can't say that about the other albanians on this page. In his responses to me he has been, I cant answer to his other replies since I have not read them all. I am pretty new to this pages.

And regarding Russia they are in a win-win situation, regardless of Kosovos future.

A. If Kosovo stays within Serbia, they win because of obvious reason. They show that they are once again a true superpower

B. If they back down on their stance on Kosovo, they can go on and recognize independece for several parts of former Soviet such as Nagorno-Karabach, Dagestan?, Abzhazia and parts of Moldova.

I would really like to keep the whole Kosovo-Metohija within Serbia, and it really bothers me that violence will be rewarded. But unless some rigid aphartheid system is created that would make more problems for us in the long end. Just imagine if 2 million albanians would vote.. Then we would have an albanian prime minister. Therefore I support a partition. Just look at Srpska Republika Krajina, we lost everything there, fortunately Republika Srpska is not lost. And what should we do about Kosovo? Give them all citizenship in Serbia even if they moved there in the 70:s and 80:s? If we had acted 15 years ago it would have been a solution of returning illegal immigrants to Albania, but thats not possible now when Nato protects them.

I belive that they fool themselves thinking that it would be so good to be independent and Nato member. I have talked to some people in Poland, and they are feeling a little bothered over Nato. They were free from the Warswav pact and Soviet only to have new masters in Nato telling them wich fighter jets they can buy and wich they can not, all according to keeping up to Nato standards. Not surprisingly they must buy the American F-16 and not european Eurofighter or swedish Jas Gripen. Same goes for many other things in the Polish army. They feel like they have new masters telling them what to do.

Sorry if this was abit of topic, but I belive it has some relevance to the subjects we are discussing here such as nato

"Give them all citizenship in Serbia even if they moved there in the 70:s and 80:s?"

Just as clarification!!

I have heard this argument before ( that K-Albanians came from Albania during 70 and 80s)and it is so meaningless.

In those years even a dog could not cross the border to Yugoslavia from Albania, because would have been electrocuted at the border garbled wires, let alone an exodus of this scale that the serbs arguing for.

Furthermore anyone who managed to escape Albania into Yugoslavia, in those years, made their way to US, not Kosovo.

"We now hear rumblings that the USA could change from all-volunteer armed forces (because the military is spread so thin throughout the world) to mandatory enlistment. I can just imagine what great political ammunition this will give to those Democrats running for President.
I believe that it would be very easy for America to leave its bases in the Balkans. "

I live in America and I never hear this...do you just hear things? Also how about some sources? America = no draft.


America rewards those for joining the army instead of making them. Knowing you will get free education, a job, experience, and soooo much more does tend to make the on-the-edge to poverty kid join. If you don't believe me go check the US ARMY website, just google it.

The comments of Serbs backing partition of Kososova are mushrooming. Does this mean they are becoming more realist, or simply they are left with no argument? The second seems to be the case. Bottomline: in their subcoscience they are in favor of keeping at least a part of this past - robbed land. Alas, this process would bring Serbia to face with territorial disputes that will emerge. Therefore, if Serbian authorities don't see the real danger that the future will serve in response of partition, then for Serbia will work the motto that discribes Nokia "The smaller in size the bestperfomance".