“Talks will not be based on Ahtisaari plan”

Predictor,

Your diatrade about Serbia's aggression against Ottoman Turkey in 1912 is simplistic and truly underlines your amatuer approach to history. Lest we forget the Ottoman Turkish aggression against Serbia in 1371, 1389 and 1455.

If i could be bothered engaging in a pointless show of how poor your arguement is i could compose a list of nations (Bosnia, Austria, Romania, Albania, Greece, Russia, Bulgaria) and a series of dates of Ottoman aggression against them. You are either ignoring the fact that the Ottoman Empire was an empire entirely based on conquest (vis-a-vis aggression). It had a primitive economy that stagnated as soon as expansion become impossible (17th and 18th centuries onwards).

To suggest the victim of this Ottoman aggression (Serbia) playing by the Ottoman rules (right of conquest) is unprincipled is a ludicrous suggestion. 'A' took from 'B' (Ottomans took from Serbia) so 'B' took it back from 'A' (Serbia took it back from the Ottomans). Simple maths really...

princip, Kate (that is pretending as non serb, Jovan and the rest. before you start to send your comments read the following:

Firstly, given that Kosovo was annexed by Serbia in an unlawful manner Kosovo’s independence will in no way be in contradiction with international law. On the contrary, Kosovo independence even before being qualified as a “classic case of secession from a sovereign state”, as Serbs argue, should be considered as “annulment of an unlawful annexation. In fact it was Serbia that acted in contradiction with international law in 1912 when it annexed Kosovo through military occupation after its aggression against the Ottoman Empire, “even though Kosovo had its historic and ethnic identity, accompanied by its right to liberation, whether that was from the Ottoman occupation (1912) or Fascist occupation (1944), and in spite of its geographical demographic and cultural integrity”. Consequently, instead of admitting its unlawful act, which she committed while violating international law in a bold manner, Serbia is now using an argument which is scientifically and historically unsustainable, namely to “preserve its sovereignty over Kosovo”, which, as proved by facts, she held in an unlawful manner for a long period of time without ever asking the majority population of Kosovo or having their consent. Kosovo was occupied during Balkan wars (1912-1913) in contradiction with the aspiration of the Albanians, expressed during their national liberation movement 1878-1912. In this manner Serbia, in spite of getting the “international legitimacy” for the occupation of Kosovo, in no way was able to justify the legitimacy of its act. In addition to this, Serbian possessive attitudes towards Kosovo which refer to history are unfounded. Firstly they are unfounded in its methodological qualification of the national character of a territory because if history is to be taken as a criteria, in light of contemporary national-territorial realities, Hungary has the right to the Panonic part of Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Hungary would argue about their rights over Belgrade, Greece would claim a right over Istanbul, Albania over Janina, Mexico over Florida and California, Sweden over Finland and Norway, Germany over Shlezi and Sudet regions, Denmark over Shlezivik, Iraq over Kuwait etc. Secondly, Serbia’s possessive attitudes towards Kosovo are unfounded in the aspect of material truth, since Kosovo, in spite of allegations of such nature “in neither a cradle of Serbian nation, nor of Serbian state”. Finally, imperialistic ambitions with “historic rights” could not be defended by England, France, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, which, as it is known “with centuries held many nations under their occupation. Therefore “with the destruction of colonial empires over 120 new states were created”. Serbia was “under the occupation of Ottoman Empire for over five centuries (1389-1878). Spain “had conquered all Latin America in the beginning of XVI century. Neither do “Russians ever mention their historic rights over Ukraine”. Historic arguments speak very clearly that “Serbs were placed in Kosovo with their expansion under the rule of Nemanjics’”. As a result of occupations during the Ottoman Empire, many ethnic minorities, such as Serbs, Turks and Roma, were placed in the ethnic Albanian territories. The Serbian minority was greatly expanded with the violent colonization that occurred between two world wars; nevertheless their percentage never exceeded 10% of the overall population. On the basis of these facts the conclusion is very clear: it was in deed the Serbian aggression, occupation and annexation of Kosovo that violated the international law and not otherwise, namely that Kosovo independence would violate international law. History is a witness of denationalization policies; of gross crimes against Albanians during 1912-1918; for the deportation of Albanians in Turkey and for confiscation the lands of the population and its colonization with Serbs and Montenegrins. The time period between February 1998 and June 10, 1999 only exceeded these special cases.
Secondly, the decision for Kosovo’s future cannot ignore the constitutional position of Kosovo in former Yugoslavia although Kosovo did not enjoy the status of a republic. However, most importantly, Kosovo was a constitute part of former Yugoslavia with a defined territory and borders, which could not be changed without its consent. Kosovo was directly represented in the former Yugoslav federation same as the other republics, not through Serbia because we would create a paradox as in that case Serbia would have three votes in the Federation, while the other units would have only one vote. With its political-territorial identities, its constitution, Kosovo was a federally constitute unit of the multinational federation of Yugoslavia. That Kosovo was not part of Serbia can be proven by the following historical and political facts: Kosovo was not part of the independent sovereign state of Serbia with its international personality recognized in the Berlin Congress (1878); Kosovo was not part of Serbia in the Second AVNOJ Congress (1943); Kosovo was not part of Serbia during its establishment as a federal unit in the Anti-Fascist Popular Liberation Council (1944); Kosovo was not part of Serbia in the structure of Constitutional Assembly of Yugoslavia when the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was founded (1945). Kosovo was not included in the sovereign Serbia, except in federal Serbia within federal Yugoslavia, during the military occupation of Kosovo (1945). Finally it is worth mentioning that the abolishment of Kosovo’s autonomy with the amendments in the Constitution of Serbia, an act, which occurred on March 28 1989, was done in an unlawful manner. Even if we didn’t have the essential deficiencies regarding the declaration in the Kosovo Assembly, deficiencies that are proven, “lack of free will”, as a result of extraordinary political pressures, makes the declaration for constitutional amendments unconstitutional.
Thirdly, the future of Kosovo cannot be compared with secessions in some other parts of the world. The states that remain reserved towards Kosovo independence should be mindful of this fact. They should instead look and find the “common ground” between Kosovo and certain other countries of the world, which have agreed to the removal of sovereignty over other territories. In this regard, the relations between Kosovo and Serbia are comparable with the relations of Indonesia and East Timor. As it is well known, East Timor was occupied and annexed by Indonesia in 1975, contrary to the will of Portugal as the external sovereign, a fact which makes the annexation of Indonesia unlawful. In 1988 Indonesian government recognized the right to self-determination to the East Timor people. Singapore is another example that should be taken under consideration. This country was partitioned from Malaysia in 1965. The example of Eritrea is also meaningful for Kosovo. It was the Ethiopian government that recognized the right to self-determination to Eritrea in 1991. The case of Kosovo is also similar to the case of Namibia. Partition of Namibia from South Africa and its independence occurred in 1991. Therefore Kosovo’s independence should not be compared with secession of territories that were not annexed in a unilateral manner (against the will of the people of the original sovereigns), which joined existing states but that they are operating in territories that were part of these states at the time when they were established. In this way even the separatist movements in Transdnjestrovle (Moldavia), in Southern Osetia and Abkazia (Georgia) that do not have the ethnic basis that Kosovo has and which didn’t have an autonomous or federal status at the time of dissolution of former Soviet Union as Kosovo had at the time of dissolution of former Yugoslavia. Finally, Kosovo Albanians are not comparable with Catalonians, Scots, Wellsians, Basks or Corsicans… because they did not face a massive deportation from the states, which controlled them.
Fourthly, the existence of Albania as an Albanian state cannot hinder the independence and sovereignty for Kosovo, because as we can recall from history neither did the status of Romania hinder the independence of Moldavia nor did the existence of France hindered the establishment of the canton-state of Switzerland. Finally, even if Kosovo was constituted as an Albanian state in the Balkans, this would be a handicap rather than an advantage of Albanian population in the Balkans. Consequently Kosovo fulfills all the criteria for being an independent and sovereign state. If it is about the size of the territory, 34 states with smaller territory are members of the UN. If it is about the population, 58 states with a smaller number of population are members of the UN. If it is for the acceptance or not of new states in the UN, it should be noted that between 1990 and 2002, UN has accepted 34 new member states. The proverb that “wherever we have facts, words become unnecessary” is not meaningless.

On the basis of these arguments and facts emphasized, in broad lines, the new political legal and international status of Kosovo should be the equivalent, without any doubt, with independence and sovereignty with internationally recognized personality in all of its territory, in the manner to ensure the consistent enforcement of law, including the northern part of Kosovo and the so-called municipalities with Serbian majority, which in the proposal of Ambassador Martti Ahtisari have gained significant competencies in the name of an asymmetric territorial and ethnic based decentralization, which in spite of its well intentions threatens the future of Kosovo. Serbian claims for the creation of two entities or for partitioning of Kosovo are unacceptable for Kosovo. These claims ignore the fact of expressively different demographic and national quantum and proportions. In the end we would like to emphasize the fact that Kosovo is not an ethnically diversifiable territory of an enclave character. Therefore the violent surrounding of one part of Kosovo’s territory, in spite of painful compromises that Kosovo delegation agreed to with decentralization, protective zones around Serbian heritage sites and favorable legislative procedures for minorities would directly contradict the derivative political entity of that territory and would not be in accordance with it.

What Predictor wrote is extremely important :

"In fact it was Serbia that acted in contradiction with international law in 1912 when it annexed Kosovo through military occupation after its aggression against the Ottoman Empire..."

This colourful claim illustrates the mindset of Albanian exremists, totally devoid of facts and logic, made of mix of brazen lies and naive expectations.

Predictor - you're not really living up to your name in your assertion that I am some sort of closet Serb! Not quite sure why you would think that, possibly because so many others on here pretending to be what they're not. I am not Serbian at all (or a secret mole for B92!), and if I was Serbian I would just say so.

There are plenty of internationals on here, hence the English language site. Doh!

I agree with Rade that the Contact Group & Troika are hoping to find some sort of compromise to save face. This will entail packaging up elements of sovereignty and then delivering it as a done deal to the Albanian leadership.

The Troika/ Contact Group will get as much as they can, and once agreed that will be it. None of these countries would then support a unilateral declaration of independence if a reasonable compromise had been offered.

This is now the end game and even the US are clearly getting fed up of the intransigence of the Kosovo Albanian leadership.

A general point: If Kosovo truly wants independence then why is there a constant referral to Albanianism? Any other province would never have a totally different ethnicity constantly tagged on their identity. If it really was true independence being sought there would not be constant references to Albania.

These will be serious and intensive negotiations and I think the ethnic-Albanian leadership need to brush up their negotiation skills since to stand by and just say we are not negotiating will not look good!

Ahtisaari plan is dead and gone - it can not be enforced and thus these new negotiations are taking place. But obstinance and an unwillingness to compromise will lose favors!

The Serbain Govt. are willing to discuss and compromise and have stated as such in very open terms even showing their hand regarding elements of sovereignity but they are not willing to break international laws and resolutions that create instability and reward threats of violence and the dismember the soverign state.

Obstinance by the ethnic-Albanian side reminds me of events in 1994 regarding Krajina and I guess sovereignity of the state being forced through is a lesson that needs to be heeded and not re-enacted. If everyone thinks out of the 'conflict' box and undersatnds the true meaning of negotiations, compromise, multi-ethnicity, reconciliation and truth a truly win-win is possible.

Dear me Predictor,

one wonders why you did not just put the link to this to provide validity to all the inaccuracies running through it.

All I need to state is if all that you copied and pasted were the case why was indeed is the international community so wrapped up in requesting Serbia's consent?
You know only too well that Serbia's sovereignity was RE-AFFIRMMED by the internactional community including so called 'friends' the US as recently as 1999 - no need to trace things back to medieval times or 1912!

Heres an intersting storyline for you from and ex-General in Pakistan regarding 'friends';

"Syed accused Washington of conspiring against the Muslim world, especially Pakistan, The Nation reported.

He said the US is supporting anti-Muslim forces to hurt Muslim interests in Kashmir, Palestine, Kosovo, Iraq and Iran.

"We should follow the path of Iran and that of Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrullah to resist US manipulation," "

http://story.malaysiasun.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/303b19022816233b/id/271718/cs/1/

Also all hose interested in obtaining a truthful perspective of events in Kosovo & Metohija over the last 8 years should read the latest book; Hiding Genocide in Kosovo — A Crime against God and Humanity by Iseult Henry
http://www.exilestreet.com/Columns/Gorin/20070808GorinAwaiting.html

Predictor
"In fact it was Serbia that acted in contradiction with international law in 1912 when it annexed Kosovo through military occupation after its aggression against the Ottoman Empire..."


Do you realise what you are saying? I hope for your sake u never mention this to any historian. They will laugh in your face.

All I can say is Resolution 1244. Serbia proper. Deal with it.

Teni
'Independence or nothing'?

Well nothing ofcourse! Yes u r right, there r many different proposals here by Serbs. While all the Serbs are treated to alban comments of illirians this and illirians that. So I mean realistically come on.

THE SITUATION IS MY DEAR ALBAN COUNTRYMAN:

-WEST (US+GERMANY) had NO idea that Russia would re-emerge so fast in global politics that their (US+GERMAN) heads are spinning. They thought they could give you independence but world has changed. So much so that US will eventually abandon this plan and recommend to u some form of autonomy, if they can not get the EU united. Its really that simple.

The EU does not have half the support necessary for unilateral declaration of independence of Kosovo. While for as long as Russia supplies EU with roughly 30% of its energy (some countries with over 80%) its very, VERY unlikely that u will have the necessary support.

US will not do this on their own because their senate would not approve such a bill in a million years.

So what it all boils down to is will countries such as Greece, Slovenia, Spain... recognise you unilateraly.

Not unless they want to stir up ethinc tensions in their own countries as well as having their energy supplies cut by disobeying Russia. All to satisfy US in its quest to break international law and in turn they get nothing from the States for their support.

EU's future is with energy rich Russia and 'free' labor China, and not with the consuming US.

Hey predictor,

looks like Surroi is in a bit of a panic;

"We have to be aware that fear is building among the people," Surroi told the Kosovo daily Express. "The people of Kosovo have a right to put pressure on their institutions," he said, adding that street protests "cannot be excluded."

"There is a feeling they have sacrificed everything for the sake of Kosovo's status. Not just the war, the burning and destruction, but everything they have sacrificed over the past eight years ... simply to have a status solution.""
http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKBYT83302220070808

Demonstrations yes if peaceful but remember No Violence - NATO will act. I guess the ethnic-Albanians who have been duped by their leadership and the US with promises that were not theirs to deliver will be feeling let down and especially given that "negotiations" mean negotiantions. But, all along I have said make the best of what is and realise that win-win is possible and still is - economic well being is more important than illegal status. Win-win is still there for the taking and it is better that the jaw-jaw continues till the compromise that all agree on is found which it be the outcome for stability and economic development.

Predictor,
Wikipedia.com as a reliable source? Please.
My sixteen-year-old son was not permitted to use wikipedia as a reference when writing a paper last year in his World History class. Anyone can edit the contents, even those who are illiterate.
You say, “you will read the real international history rather than one sided Serbian one”. So, we are to believe, according to you, that Albanians who contribute to wikipedia are truthful and not one sided? I don’t believe you.

Anthony - you are an educated man, you must feel like you are talking to a bunch of children here. Like someone else said, if this is the quality of arguments that will be coming from the albanian negotiating team, then Serbia has nothing to worry about. Yesterday, we had someone claim that the ancient Serbian Monasteries were actually albanian, and today we have someone claiming that Serbia illegally occupied Kosovo in 1912 and took it from the Turks...

Opinions without reasoning are not opinions, no matter how lengthy the post.

Kosovo and Metonija is legally part of Serbia, no ifs, buts, or qualifications.

The Kosovo Albanian leadership doesn't have sovereignty over one square centimitre of any land anywhere on this planet.

They have nothing to negotiate with, except a wish list. If it wasn't so, they'd have achieved their goals immediately after the illegal bombing of Serbia ceased.

Predictor in 1912, there was no UN, therefore no "international Law" as we know it today. Comparing the two is futile as when the UN was created, it was designed to create a new framework for relations between states. that simply didn't exist in 1912. It's like comparing chalk with cheese, so 99% of what you wrote was meaningless!! Please write less next time in order to preserve my eyesight. Thankyou.

Teni,
"And Princip let me assure you that the Albanians will go to the 'negotiations'. If you ever bothered to read any Albanian papers or to watch the news you would know. They'll go there and pretend to discuss and wait it out "

- I think the "pretending" is what the US will be most unhappy with as I am sure the EU will point out and the Russians won't need to say I told you so! Dear me talk about Freudian slips...

The Kosovo Albanian leadership doggedly clings to the all or nothing scenario. No political advantage to be gained there by the West.

The Serbian leadership is now being seen as the only chance the West has of saving face. If the West can wring some more meaningful concessions out of Tadic and Kostunica, they'll declare victory and tell the Kosovo Albanian leadership they've achieved 'independence' in all but name. That's why the talks have been set up this way, with both men present.

In any case, Serbia will never agree to renounce its sovereignty over Kosovo and Metohija and a resolution on recognising independence will never pass at the UN.

The best option for the West is to get the Serbs to agree to quasi-independence for those parts of Kosovo dominated by the Serbian Albanian minority, under tight international supervision. In return the West will continue to recognise Serbian sovereignty and help Serbia to forge a plan for peaceful reintegration of the province.

Any other option is becoming unthinkable and the whole independence kick will be seen as Bush's folly!

How right you are, Princip.

Predictor, you don't even have to read between the lines to realise that Surroi is making his move. Surroi knows that if Ceku doesn't toe the line and accept supervised autonomy, he's off to the Hague and Surroi is signalling his willingness to step in and finish the job.

Olf, has it ever in the last nine years occurred to you that you were deceived?

Do you remember when Serbia was 'bombed into submission' by NATO?

Why didn't NATO force the Serbs to sign away Kosovo and Metohija on the spot???

Certainly not ashamed of my Boskovic name. I made a BBC4 documentary with that name and therefore introduced myself as 'Shelmerdine'Boskovic' to the millions who watched it. Hardly hiding behind my ethnic origin eh? You try typing 'Anthony Shelmerdine'Boskovic Uk' before every post!!!! Its a long name.

As for Teni.... i was merely pointing out that 1912 was seen by Serbia (and the watching world) as a nation taking back her for province. I do not support a pan-Byzantine attack on present day Turkey as it is not the Ottoman Empire. It is a republic. However, in 1912 Serbia was fighting the Ottoman Empire just as in 1389 etc etc. I feel that you've twisted my point as no where in my comment do i suggest an attack on any nation?

As for my degree Aleks.... it may just be a 'BAhons' but it wasn't state sponsered nonsense churned out by some communist university peddling myths and half truths. I'm rightly proud that i specialised in the Balkans and its value certainly stands out on this site.

those albanian comments are continuing to amuse me!
especially predictor´s! ( as far as I remember it, in his first comment here, he introduced himself as a non-biased serb!!! )

Teni,

I dont care what reasons you may possess for wanting me 'not to be allowed to write anymore'? I think deep down inside it pains you that i dont have to break sweat to deconstruct your arguements. It is you who isn't welcome on B92. Civilised debate is about argueing with intelligence and respect. Calling for my expulsion (which is what you're suggesting) just because i disagree with your viewpoint is the behaviour of a spoilt brat.

Teni: "I think that Anthony with the difficult last name and the BA degree should not be allowed to write here anymore."

Why? You have to come to a Serbian news site because you do not have a similarly open forum for discussion, and think you can start banning the views of others?

Wow! Anthony Shelmerdine seems to have got under your skin. For someone who supports the publication of hitlists of young reservists it seems particularly ironic to call for another poster to be censored.

Anthony mentioned that he had studied history and has a personal in-depth knowledge of the Balkans in response to a question about history. Seems logical to me, and quite ridiculous for you to distort this or try and somehow use it as a cheap means to discredit his arguments.

Why not tell us a bit about your own credentials?

Everyone knows that these so called further "negotiations" are actually only negotiations between BG and Int. community, as Kosovar side has nothing that is to be negotiated with. As you can see at the start, Int.Comm. will start negotiations with BG over the several issues that has to do with Serbia itself, while explaining to BG politicians that Kosovas independence is not negotiable, but if they do want tyo negotiagte with Albanians then be prepared to talk about Presheva Valley and its destiny, as this issue is left appart in Vienna negotiations.

I suggest to Koshtunica and Tadiq to be more democratic in this coming meeting. Especially, to not show the same political opinion as had Milosevic. Koshtunica said before that he hopes for any compromise. I totally agree with him, because the independent of Kosova is on of compromises. The Albanians issue in Balkan can wider if the Serbian teams do not accept the independent of Kosova as a compromise.

Belgrade is telling Washington to show restrain WOW. Does this mean that Serbian failed politicians are going to come with more surprises? If so than it looks like they have started to feel the pressure from their people that want life’s like Princip, Kate, Anthony Shelmerdine (BAhons History UCL), they care no less about Kosova. They want jobs, prosperity, EU just like Princip, Kate, Anthony Shelmerdine I don’t blame the ordinary Serbian really, they have been deceived from their failed politicians in the past with exactly same politics as Princip, Kate, Anthony Shelmerdine propose.
Guys (Princip, Kate, Anthony Shelmerdine) ordinary Serbian is tired of these kind of suggestions.

Princip, you link spreads hate and have nothing to do with Kosova I can find so many links that link some Serb to terrorism. I believe it should not be allowed, both of them. It is really lucky for Balkans that people like that are not around to spark more trouble.

Anthony Shelmerdine, no need for BAhons History from UCL to know basic history. UCL should revoke the degree since it being misused

Predictor and Teni, have given a detailed explanation of the situation in Kosova.

Well done Predictor and Teni. You got my full support

I find it amazing that so many Albanians get on this site to tell us what is going to happen. Why? You aren't going to change anyone's mind, and all you do is instigate and propogate, just like in Kosovo. What's next - are you going to claim B92 as an Illyrian web site that was actually Albanian even before Al Gore invented the internet. My suggestion is promote peace and reconciliation and not veiled threats. Let's just wait and see what comes out these talks and beyond. There's no point in predicting the outcome, as your predictions have thus far failed miserably.

The Serb government can indeed count itself lucky for enjoying so much faith from its citizens. There are guys in these discussions who are willing to believe the greatest absurdities that Kostunica or whoever decide to feed to the public. Take it with a pinch of salt guys, please! It makes for better politics.
Now it seems Serbia has decided to warn America. That's good, that's very good. Go for it and let's see how much good it does you.
And Princip let me assure you that the Albanians will go to the 'negotiations'. If you ever bothered to read any Albanian papers or to watch the news you would know. They'll go there and pretend to discuss and wait it out while the Serb team gets blue in the face trying to explain 1244 and Serbia's love affair with Kosovo and what not. That's it. And it might be a good thing if the Ahtisari plan is dead cause it only envisaged conditional independence. Kosovo might get full independce after all.

Princip,

You don't need a link, there is an address you could reffer to if interested: visit www. wikipedia.com and serch for Albanians, Albanian army , Illyria etc and you will read the real international history rather than one sided Serbian one.

common sense indicates that since atishari plan was junked in the UNSC, independence is out of the negotiating table. the best the troika could recommend is as I said before something based on china-Hong Kong - Taiwan system. in short, 1 country 2 systems is the most acceptable solution to both parties. its a median between NO INDEPENDENCE AND INDEPENDENCE.

All I can say is Resolution 1244. Serbia proper. Deal with it.
(Cvele, 8. August 2007 15:30)

In 1244 it says Kosova is part of yugoslavia, and since that place don't exist anymore, thats Kosova's de-jury independent.

I'm gonna add that I love reading these comments that have nothing to do with the article. You click this link and you're reading comments about Surroi lmao.

For those who think I'm not American, you obviously don't know anything.

On the wikipedia thing, some of the touchy subjects like KOSOVA or Kosovo are locked so no "idiot" can change them.

Tell your son you can't copy and paste wikipedia but you could check their sources and basically base your thesis of their sources.

To A. Shelmerdin: Your grasp of international relations is indeed comendable. By following your logic Greece should attack Turkey to get Istanbul back and then they should attack Serbia too because the whole Balkans were part of the Byzantine Empire at some point and and Serbia should conquesr Macedonia...I guess you get the point.
And to all the Serb enthusiasts here: Kosovo is going to become independent. No one seriously doubts that, but I guess there is still a lot of wishful thinking on your part.
But let us assume for one moment that Kosovo is handed back to Serbia. What then? None of you are ever willing to offer an answer to that. You can call it blackmail - we Albanians call it an insurance policy - but the K - Albanians have always the insurgency option if all else fails. I guess with the exception of Kate who believes in peace and love between Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo if only a few Albanian 'miscreants' are kicked out most of you Serbs know that. They'll drag you down with them so you can say bye bye to the EU and to a prosperous Serbia.

I think that Anthony with the difficult last name and the BA degree should not be allowed to write here anymore.
And it is amazing to se how many proposals the Serb camp here has on Kosovo. I actually believe that there are as many proposals as there are Serbs. Hong Kong model or Taiwan model, autonomy plus, autonomy double plus, independence minus, and the list goes on and on. The same can be said of your government. That is usually a sign of desperation. The only thing left is for Kostunica to fall to his knees and start beging. That would be a sight. Not that it would change anything.
You don't see the Albanian side doing anything of the kind do you?
We have made up our minds guys: independence or nothing!
I doubt that the average citizen of Serbia shares the same determination.

Excellent summary of the state of affairs Cvele.

Rade: "Do you remember when Serbia was 'bombed into submission' by NATO? Why didn't NATO force the Serbs to sign away Kosovo and Metohija on the spot???"

Exactly! This was not a win by Nato as Princip has also pointed out many times. They had to allow Serbia to keep her boundaries including Kosovo.

The 'war' ended - which is always a good thing - but that was the time when new boundaries could have been agreed.

And teni - you say that I am an advocater of 'peace and love' like it's a bad thing. Only a lunatic or psychopath would be pro war (including polticians) unless it is to stop an invasion of their own territory, which is certainly NOT the case!

Anthony Shelmerdine-Бошковић, why are you hiding behind an English name? Are you ashamed of your Бошковић part? By the way, with Honors or without, it's jut a bachelor degree.

whatever happpens there the serbs in republica srpska in bosnia should seperate from the rest and republica srpska krajina should also seperate and the people of krajina back to their land and govern them self, like they did centuries ago. thats serbs land anyway and then partition kosovo

M. Ahtisari's plan for supervised Kosovo Independence is a plan put forward by him as a result of a dead end in negotiations, under the auspices of UN.
Kosovo Team will not negotiate Independence and the borders.
**PEACE**

Anthony by way of clarification: I was not proposing to censure you from the site. I made a joke aimed at something Dragan said and B92 decided to cut it. The end result is that it made it seem as if I was asking for you not to be allowed to write here. My apoliogies for that. And I hope that B92 will not cut this one too.

Kate, thank you. I notice no pro-Albanian responded. And no pro-Albanian poster addressed the key message of the article. The Ahtissari plan is dead and Ahtissari himself is no longer a part of the negotiations. Hmmm... Another 'victory' for the anti-international law side?

Well, whether we consider history argument or not Kosovo belongs to Serbia. Historically Serbs were there before Albanians, presently Resolution 1244 spells it all. Albanians were duped by good old Madeleine Albright.

Princip once again you are grasping at straws. It is becoming a pattern. Both sides are gonna be pretending as far as the issue of independence is concerned. Your government has made it clear that it will accept anything but and the Albanians have made it clear that they will accept nothing less. I believe they will both stick to those positions and have no intention of changing their minds. That amounts to pretendig to look for a compromise, doesn't it? The Americans are saying that after 120 days of negotiations Kosovo will in one way or the other become independent and they know full well where the Albanians stand. That implies that the Americans are going along with it, right? This far I haven't heard anyone in the EU or US ask the K- Albanians to give up their demad for independence. I have heard them ask Serbia to come to its senses. So for the life of me I don't know where you base that conclusion.

Have you guys noticed that this has already become some sort of a game or political match. One day the news are full of declarations by the west and US that Ahtisari's plan is the basis and Independence is not negotiable. The next day all the news is from the Russian and Serbian side about the opposite. It's like even all the news sites of the world have gotten involved in this and each day we will seee a different statement.

Let's get this over with before something big blows up in everyone's face.

Predictor, just listen to yourself.

"The Serbian minority was greatly expanded with the violent colonization that occurred between two world wars; nevertheless their percentage never exceeded 10% of the overall population."

Census 1961
646,604 Albanians (67.1%)
227,016 Serbs (23.5%)
37,588 Montenegrins (3.9%)
etc.

Census 1971: 1,243,693 total inhabitants

916,168 Albanians or 73.7%
228,264 Serbs (18.4%)
31,555 Montenegrins (2.5%)
etc. etc.

Census 1981: 1,584,558 total inhabitants

1,226,736 Albanians (77.42%)
209,498 Serbs (13.2%)
27,028 Montenegrins (1.7%)

etc.

I'm afraid that the rest of the comment is not more serious or accurate.

I agree with Benny. This becoming a political game. They should start looking for a solutions.
Somebody pointed here that Bosnian Serbs will want to separate too.
This is a thing that bothers me from the beginning.
Why didn't we have international conference setting the rules when Yugoslavia was falling apart?

predictor - you are comparing Kosovo with East Timor and Singapore, there is a big difference there that does not work in Albanian favour, they are both non-Muslim states that separated from Muslim ones.
Also if Serbs occupied Kosovo 100 years ago as you say then who built all those hundreds of Christian churches there 700 years ago? Maybe Albanian Muslims?

A remark to Predoctor: you have to visit Serbia and its part Kosovo first - before you write so lengthy highly controvercial and anacurate lecture.

John 1st
"Al Gore invented the internet"

LOL. He was helping with this process, i wouldn't say that he flat out invented it himself.

PB,

I think predictor wrotte (NOT PASTED) the post, and it is a fabulous one.
Its a different story that you and all you serbian posters dont like it 'cause it explains greatly in chronological manner how Serbia annexed Kosovo.
Again, you can not have it both ways.
What you do is legal, if the other side does similar what you did, oh no....its illegal.

Kate,
US Government has not had it with Albanians, in contrary, they like them very much. And , maybe it will prove as the most succesful project in US Foreign policy.

Lets get Kosovo INDEPENDENT and then will have **LOVE and PEACE** amongst each other.

To suggest the victim of this Ottoman aggression (Serbia) playing by the Ottoman rules (right of conquest) is unprincipled is a ludicrous suggestion. 'A' took from 'B' (Ottomans took from Serbia) so 'B' took it back from 'A' (Serbia took it back from the Ottomans). Simple maths really...
(Anthony Shelmerdine (BAhons History UCL), 8. August 2007 14:05)
And "0" brought "A", meaning, the Serbs brought KosovA from the Carpats in the seventh century - right Tony???

Historically Serbs were there before Albanians, ....
(Python, 9. August 2007 09:49)
Historically Serbs were in the Carpats, and Albanian ancestors were to the Danube...

one Question to all albanians who care to answer: When you say serbs would be the best treated minority under Ahtisaari plan, how are you planning to actually to do it? I mean, serbs are mistreated for eight years now, how would one proposal from a finnish guy change everything all of a sudden? Shouldn't you have been following the same standards stated in the proposal regarding minorities already all these years? Just tell me the plan, and don't start with "serbs mistreated us first", "independence will change everything" arguments. Trust is the key here, and it should be earned.It doesn't come in the form of some piece of paper written by a foreigner. You don't have to convince me about albanians good intensions, just convince the serbs...

princip, Kate (that is pretending as non serb, Jovan and the rest. before you start to send your comments read the following:

Firstly, given that Kosovo was annexed by Serbia in an unlawful manner Kosovo’s independence will in no way be in contradiction with international law. On the contrary, Kosovo independence even before being qualified as a “classic case of secession from a sovereign state”, as Serbs argue, should be considered as “annulment of an unlawful annexation. In fact it was Serbia that acted in contradiction with international law in 1912 when it annexed Kosovo through military occupation after its aggression against the Ottoman Empire, “even though Kosovo had its historic and ethnic identity, accompanied by its right to liberation, whether that was from the Ottoman occupation (1912) or Fascist occupation (1944), and in spite of its geographical demographic and cultural integrity”. Consequently, instead of admitting its unlawful act, which she committed while violating international law in a bold manner, Serbia is now using an argument which is scientifically and historically unsustainable, namely to “preserve its sovereignty over Kosovo”, which, as proved by facts, she held in an unlawful manner for a long period of time without ever asking the majority population of Kosovo or having their consent. Kosovo was occupied during Balkan wars (1912-1913) in contradiction with the aspiration of the Albanians, expressed during their national liberation movement 1878-1912. In this manner Serbia, in spite of getting the “international legitimacy” for the occupation of Kosovo, in no way was able to justify the legitimacy of its act. In addition to this, Serbian possessive attitudes towards Kosovo which refer to history are unfounded. Firstly they are unfounded in its methodological qualification of the national character of a territory because if history is to be taken as a criteria, in light of contemporary national-territorial realities, Hungary has the right to the Panonic part of Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Hungary would argue about their rights over Belgrade, Greece would claim a right over Istanbul, Albania over Janina, Mexico over Florida and California, Sweden over Finland and Norway, Germany over Shlezi and Sudet regions, Denmark over Shlezivik, Iraq over Kuwait etc. Secondly, Serbia’s possessive attitudes towards Kosovo are unfounded in the aspect of material truth, since Kosovo, in spite of allegations of such nature “in neither a cradle of Serbian nation, nor of Serbian state”. Finally, imperialistic ambitions with “historic rights” could not be defended by England, France, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, which, as it is known “with centuries held many nations under their occupation. Therefore “with the destruction of colonial empires over 120 new states were created”. Serbia was “under the occupation of Ottoman Empire for over five centuries (1389-1878). Spain “had conquered all Latin America in the beginning of XVI century. Neither do “Russians ever mention their historic rights over Ukraine”. Historic arguments speak very clearly that “Serbs were placed in Kosovo with their expansion under the rule of Nemanjics’”. As a result of occupations during the Ottoman Empire, many ethnic minorities, such as Serbs, Turks and Roma, were placed in the ethnic Albanian territories. The Serbian minority was greatly expanded with the violent colonization that occurred between two world wars; nevertheless their percentage never exceeded 10% of the overall population. On the basis of these facts the conclusion is very clear: it was in deed the Serbian aggression, occupation and annexation of Kosovo that violated the international law and not otherwise, namely that Kosovo independence would violate international law. History is a witness of denationalization policies; of gross crimes against Albanians during 1912-1918; for the deportation of Albanians in Turkey and for confiscation the lands of the population and its colonization with Serbs and Montenegrins. The time period between February 1998 and June 10, 1999 only exceeded these special cases.
Secondly, the decision for Kosovo’s future cannot ignore the constitutional position of Kosovo in former Yugoslavia although Kosovo did not enjoy the status of a republic. However, most importantly, Kosovo was a constitute part of former Yugoslavia with a defined territory and borders, which could not be changed without its consent. Kosovo was directly represented in the former Yugoslav federation same as the other republics, not through Serbia because we would create a paradox as in that case Serbia would have three votes in the Federation, while the other units would have only one vote. With its political-territorial identities, its constitution, Kosovo was a federally constitute unit of the multinational federation of Yugoslavia. That Kosovo was not part of Serbia can be proven by the following historical and political facts: Kosovo was not part of the independent sovereign state of Serbia with its international personality recognized in the Berlin Congress (1878); Kosovo was not part of Serbia in the Second AVNOJ Congress (1943); Kosovo was not part of Serbia during its establishment as a federal unit in the Anti-Fascist Popular Liberation Council (1944); Kosovo was not part of Serbia in the structure of Constitutional Assembly of Yugoslavia when the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was founded (1945). Kosovo was not included in the sovereign Serbia, except in federal Serbia within federal Yugoslavia, during the military occupation of Kosovo (1945). Finally it is worth mentioning that the abolishment of Kosovo’s autonomy with the amendments in the Constitution of Serbia, an act, which occurred on March 28 1989, was done in an unlawful manner. Even if we didn’t have the essential deficiencies regarding the declaration in the Kosovo Assembly, deficiencies that are proven, “lack of free will”, as a result of extraordinary political pressures, makes the declaration for constitutional amendments unconstitutional.
Thirdly, the future of Kosovo cannot be compared with secessions in some other parts of the world. The states that remain reserved towards Kosovo independence should be mindful of this fact. They should instead look and find the “common ground” between Kosovo and certain other countries of the world, which have agreed to the removal of sovereignty over other territories. In this regard, the relations between Kosovo and Serbia are comparable with the relations of Indonesia and East Timor. As it is well known, East Timor was occupied and annexed by Indonesia in 1975, contrary to the will of Portugal as the external sovereign, a fact which makes the annexation of Indonesia unlawful. In 1988 Indonesian government recognized the right to self-determination to the East Timor people. Singapore is another example that should be taken under consideration. This country was partitioned from Malaysia in 1965. The example of Eritrea is also meaningful for Kosovo. It was the Ethiopian government that recognized the right to self-determination to Eritrea in 1991. The case of Kosovo is also similar to the case of Namibia. Partition of Namibia from South Africa and its independence occurred in 1991. Therefore Kosovo’s independence should not be compared with secession of territories that were not annexed in a unilateral manner (against the will of the people of the original sovereigns), which joined existing states but that they are operating in territories that were part of these states at the time when they were established. In this way even the separatist movements in Transdnjestrovle (Moldavia), in Southern Osetia and Abkazia (Georgia) that do not have the ethnic basis that Kosovo has and which didn’t have an autonomous or federal status at the time of dissolution of former Soviet Union as Kosovo had at the time of dissolution of former Yugoslavia. Finally, Kosovo Albanians are not comparable with Catalonians, Scots, Wellsians, Basks or Corsicans… because they did not face a massive deportation from the states, which controlled them.
Fourthly, the existence of Albania as an Albanian state cannot hinder the independence and sovereignty for Kosovo, because as we can recall from history neither did the status of Romania hinder the independence of Moldavia nor did the existence of France hindered the establishment of the canton-state of Switzerland. Finally, even if Kosovo was constituted as an Albanian state in the Balkans, this would be a handicap rather than an advantage of Albanian population in the Balkans. Consequently Kosovo fulfills all the criteria for being an independent and sovereign state. If it is about the size of the territory, 34 states with smaller territory are members of the UN. If it is about the population, 58 states with a smaller number of population are members of the UN. If it is for the acceptance or not of new states in the UN, it should be noted that between 1990 and 2002, UN has accepted 34 new member states. The proverb that “wherever we have facts, words become unnecessary” is not meaningless.

On the basis of these arguments and facts emphasized, in broad lines, the new political legal and international status of Kosovo should be the equivalent, without any doubt, with independence and sovereignty with internationally recognized personality in all of its territory, in the manner to ensure the consistent enforcement of law, including the northern part of Kosovo and the so-called municipalities with Serbian majority, which in the proposal of Ambassador Martti Ahtisari have gained significant competencies in the name of an asymmetric territorial and ethnic based decentralization, which in spite of its well intentions threatens the future of Kosovo. Serbian claims for the creation of two entities or for partitioning of Kosovo are unacceptable for Kosovo. These claims ignore the fact of expressively different demographic and national quantum and proportions. In the end we would like to emphasize the fact that Kosovo is not an ethnically diversifiable territory of an enclave character. Therefore the violent surrounding of one part of Kosovo’s territory, in spite of painful compromises that Kosovo delegation agreed to with decentralization, protective zones around Serbian heritage sites and favorable legislative procedures for minorities would directly contradict the derivative political entity of that territory and would not be in accordance with it.

Anthony Shelmerdine-Бошковић, why are you hiding behind an English name? Are you ashamed of your Бошковић part? By the way, with Honors or without, it's jut a bachelor degree.

I suggest to Koshtunica and Tadiq to be more democratic in this coming meeting. Especially, to not show the same political opinion as had Milosevic. Koshtunica said before that he hopes for any compromise. I totally agree with him, because the independent of Kosova is on of compromises. The Albanians issue in Balkan can wider if the Serbian teams do not accept the independent of Kosova as a compromise.

The Serb government can indeed count itself lucky for enjoying so much faith from its citizens. There are guys in these discussions who are willing to believe the greatest absurdities that Kostunica or whoever decide to feed to the public. Take it with a pinch of salt guys, please! It makes for better politics.
Now it seems Serbia has decided to warn America. That's good, that's very good. Go for it and let's see how much good it does you.
And Princip let me assure you that the Albanians will go to the 'negotiations'. If you ever bothered to read any Albanian papers or to watch the news you would know. They'll go there and pretend to discuss and wait it out while the Serb team gets blue in the face trying to explain 1244 and Serbia's love affair with Kosovo and what not. That's it. And it might be a good thing if the Ahtisari plan is dead cause it only envisaged conditional independence. Kosovo might get full independce after all.

I think that Anthony with the difficult last name and the BA degree should not be allowed to write here anymore.
And it is amazing to se how many proposals the Serb camp here has on Kosovo. I actually believe that there are as many proposals as there are Serbs. Hong Kong model or Taiwan model, autonomy plus, autonomy double plus, independence minus, and the list goes on and on. The same can be said of your government. That is usually a sign of desperation. The only thing left is for Kostunica to fall to his knees and start beging. That would be a sight. Not that it would change anything.
You don't see the Albanian side doing anything of the kind do you?
We have made up our minds guys: independence or nothing!
I doubt that the average citizen of Serbia shares the same determination.

The Kosovo Albanian leadership doggedly clings to the all or nothing scenario. No political advantage to be gained there by the West.

The Serbian leadership is now being seen as the only chance the West has of saving face. If the West can wring some more meaningful concessions out of Tadic and Kostunica, they'll declare victory and tell the Kosovo Albanian leadership they've achieved 'independence' in all but name. That's why the talks have been set up this way, with both men present.

In any case, Serbia will never agree to renounce its sovereignty over Kosovo and Metohija and a resolution on recognising independence will never pass at the UN.

The best option for the West is to get the Serbs to agree to quasi-independence for those parts of Kosovo dominated by the Serbian Albanian minority, under tight international supervision. In return the West will continue to recognise Serbian sovereignty and help Serbia to forge a plan for peaceful reintegration of the province.

Any other option is becoming unthinkable and the whole independence kick will be seen as Bush's folly!

Everyone knows that these so called further "negotiations" are actually only negotiations between BG and Int. community, as Kosovar side has nothing that is to be negotiated with. As you can see at the start, Int.Comm. will start negotiations with BG over the several issues that has to do with Serbia itself, while explaining to BG politicians that Kosovas independence is not negotiable, but if they do want tyo negotiagte with Albanians then be prepared to talk about Presheva Valley and its destiny, as this issue is left appart in Vienna negotiations.

Predictor,

Your diatrade about Serbia's aggression against Ottoman Turkey in 1912 is simplistic and truly underlines your amatuer approach to history. Lest we forget the Ottoman Turkish aggression against Serbia in 1371, 1389 and 1455.

If i could be bothered engaging in a pointless show of how poor your arguement is i could compose a list of nations (Bosnia, Austria, Romania, Albania, Greece, Russia, Bulgaria) and a series of dates of Ottoman aggression against them. You are either ignoring the fact that the Ottoman Empire was an empire entirely based on conquest (vis-a-vis aggression). It had a primitive economy that stagnated as soon as expansion become impossible (17th and 18th centuries onwards).

To suggest the victim of this Ottoman aggression (Serbia) playing by the Ottoman rules (right of conquest) is unprincipled is a ludicrous suggestion. 'A' took from 'B' (Ottomans took from Serbia) so 'B' took it back from 'A' (Serbia took it back from the Ottomans). Simple maths really...

Princip,

You don't need a link, there is an address you could reffer to if interested: visit www. wikipedia.com and serch for Albanians, Albanian army , Illyria etc and you will read the real international history rather than one sided Serbian one.

To A. Shelmerdin: Your grasp of international relations is indeed comendable. By following your logic Greece should attack Turkey to get Istanbul back and then they should attack Serbia too because the whole Balkans were part of the Byzantine Empire at some point and and Serbia should conquesr Macedonia...I guess you get the point.
And to all the Serb enthusiasts here: Kosovo is going to become independent. No one seriously doubts that, but I guess there is still a lot of wishful thinking on your part.
But let us assume for one moment that Kosovo is handed back to Serbia. What then? None of you are ever willing to offer an answer to that. You can call it blackmail - we Albanians call it an insurance policy - but the K - Albanians have always the insurgency option if all else fails. I guess with the exception of Kate who believes in peace and love between Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo if only a few Albanian 'miscreants' are kicked out most of you Serbs know that. They'll drag you down with them so you can say bye bye to the EU and to a prosperous Serbia.

Belgrade is telling Washington to show restrain WOW. Does this mean that Serbian failed politicians are going to come with more surprises? If so than it looks like they have started to feel the pressure from their people that want life’s like Princip, Kate, Anthony Shelmerdine (BAhons History UCL), they care no less about Kosova. They want jobs, prosperity, EU just like Princip, Kate, Anthony Shelmerdine I don’t blame the ordinary Serbian really, they have been deceived from their failed politicians in the past with exactly same politics as Princip, Kate, Anthony Shelmerdine propose.
Guys (Princip, Kate, Anthony Shelmerdine) ordinary Serbian is tired of these kind of suggestions.

Princip, you link spreads hate and have nothing to do with Kosova I can find so many links that link some Serb to terrorism. I believe it should not be allowed, both of them. It is really lucky for Balkans that people like that are not around to spark more trouble.

Anthony Shelmerdine, no need for BAhons History from UCL to know basic history. UCL should revoke the degree since it being misused

Predictor and Teni, have given a detailed explanation of the situation in Kosova.

Well done Predictor and Teni. You got my full support

These will be serious and intensive negotiations and I think the ethnic-Albanian leadership need to brush up their negotiation skills since to stand by and just say we are not negotiating will not look good!

Ahtisaari plan is dead and gone - it can not be enforced and thus these new negotiations are taking place. But obstinance and an unwillingness to compromise will lose favors!

The Serbain Govt. are willing to discuss and compromise and have stated as such in very open terms even showing their hand regarding elements of sovereignity but they are not willing to break international laws and resolutions that create instability and reward threats of violence and the dismember the soverign state.

Obstinance by the ethnic-Albanian side reminds me of events in 1994 regarding Krajina and I guess sovereignity of the state being forced through is a lesson that needs to be heeded and not re-enacted. If everyone thinks out of the 'conflict' box and undersatnds the true meaning of negotiations, compromise, multi-ethnicity, reconciliation and truth a truly win-win is possible.

Opinions without reasoning are not opinions, no matter how lengthy the post.

Kosovo and Metonija is legally part of Serbia, no ifs, buts, or qualifications.

The Kosovo Albanian leadership doesn't have sovereignty over one square centimitre of any land anywhere on this planet.

They have nothing to negotiate with, except a wish list. If it wasn't so, they'd have achieved their goals immediately after the illegal bombing of Serbia ceased.

Dear me Predictor,

one wonders why you did not just put the link to this to provide validity to all the inaccuracies running through it.

All I need to state is if all that you copied and pasted were the case why was indeed is the international community so wrapped up in requesting Serbia's consent?
You know only too well that Serbia's sovereignity was RE-AFFIRMMED by the internactional community including so called 'friends' the US as recently as 1999 - no need to trace things back to medieval times or 1912!

Heres an intersting storyline for you from and ex-General in Pakistan regarding 'friends';

"Syed accused Washington of conspiring against the Muslim world, especially Pakistan, The Nation reported.

He said the US is supporting anti-Muslim forces to hurt Muslim interests in Kashmir, Palestine, Kosovo, Iraq and Iran.

"We should follow the path of Iran and that of Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrullah to resist US manipulation," "

http://story.malaysiasun.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/303b19022816233b/id/271718/cs/1/

Also all hose interested in obtaining a truthful perspective of events in Kosovo & Metohija over the last 8 years should read the latest book; Hiding Genocide in Kosovo — A Crime against God and Humanity by Iseult Henry
http://www.exilestreet.com/Columns/Gorin/20070808GorinAwaiting.html

Princip once again you are grasping at straws. It is becoming a pattern. Both sides are gonna be pretending as far as the issue of independence is concerned. Your government has made it clear that it will accept anything but and the Albanians have made it clear that they will accept nothing less. I believe they will both stick to those positions and have no intention of changing their minds. That amounts to pretendig to look for a compromise, doesn't it? The Americans are saying that after 120 days of negotiations Kosovo will in one way or the other become independent and they know full well where the Albanians stand. That implies that the Americans are going along with it, right? This far I haven't heard anyone in the EU or US ask the K- Albanians to give up their demad for independence. I have heard them ask Serbia to come to its senses. So for the life of me I don't know where you base that conclusion.

Anthony by way of clarification: I was not proposing to censure you from the site. I made a joke aimed at something Dragan said and B92 decided to cut it. The end result is that it made it seem as if I was asking for you not to be allowed to write here. My apoliogies for that. And I hope that B92 will not cut this one too.

Predictor - you're not really living up to your name in your assertion that I am some sort of closet Serb! Not quite sure why you would think that, possibly because so many others on here pretending to be what they're not. I am not Serbian at all (or a secret mole for B92!), and if I was Serbian I would just say so.

There are plenty of internationals on here, hence the English language site. Doh!

I agree with Rade that the Contact Group & Troika are hoping to find some sort of compromise to save face. This will entail packaging up elements of sovereignty and then delivering it as a done deal to the Albanian leadership.

The Troika/ Contact Group will get as much as they can, and once agreed that will be it. None of these countries would then support a unilateral declaration of independence if a reasonable compromise had been offered.

This is now the end game and even the US are clearly getting fed up of the intransigence of the Kosovo Albanian leadership.

A general point: If Kosovo truly wants independence then why is there a constant referral to Albanianism? Any other province would never have a totally different ethnicity constantly tagged on their identity. If it really was true independence being sought there would not be constant references to Albania.

How right you are, Princip.

Predictor, you don't even have to read between the lines to realise that Surroi is making his move. Surroi knows that if Ceku doesn't toe the line and accept supervised autonomy, he's off to the Hague and Surroi is signalling his willingness to step in and finish the job.

Predictor
"In fact it was Serbia that acted in contradiction with international law in 1912 when it annexed Kosovo through military occupation after its aggression against the Ottoman Empire..."


Do you realise what you are saying? I hope for your sake u never mention this to any historian. They will laugh in your face.

All I can say is Resolution 1244. Serbia proper. Deal with it.

those albanian comments are continuing to amuse me!
especially predictor´s! ( as far as I remember it, in his first comment here, he introduced himself as a non-biased serb!!! )

Anthony - you are an educated man, you must feel like you are talking to a bunch of children here. Like someone else said, if this is the quality of arguments that will be coming from the albanian negotiating team, then Serbia has nothing to worry about. Yesterday, we had someone claim that the ancient Serbian Monasteries were actually albanian, and today we have someone claiming that Serbia illegally occupied Kosovo in 1912 and took it from the Turks...

Have you guys noticed that this has already become some sort of a game or political match. One day the news are full of declarations by the west and US that Ahtisari's plan is the basis and Independence is not negotiable. The next day all the news is from the Russian and Serbian side about the opposite. It's like even all the news sites of the world have gotten involved in this and each day we will seee a different statement.

Let's get this over with before something big blows up in everyone's face.

M. Ahtisari's plan for supervised Kosovo Independence is a plan put forward by him as a result of a dead end in negotiations, under the auspices of UN.
Kosovo Team will not negotiate Independence and the borders.
**PEACE**

All I can say is Resolution 1244. Serbia proper. Deal with it.
(Cvele, 8. August 2007 15:30)

In 1244 it says Kosova is part of yugoslavia, and since that place don't exist anymore, thats Kosova's de-jury independent.

I'm gonna add that I love reading these comments that have nothing to do with the article. You click this link and you're reading comments about Surroi lmao.

For those who think I'm not American, you obviously don't know anything.

On the wikipedia thing, some of the touchy subjects like KOSOVA or Kosovo are locked so no "idiot" can change them.

Tell your son you can't copy and paste wikipedia but you could check their sources and basically base your thesis of their sources.

Hey predictor,

looks like Surroi is in a bit of a panic;

"We have to be aware that fear is building among the people," Surroi told the Kosovo daily Express. "The people of Kosovo have a right to put pressure on their institutions," he said, adding that street protests "cannot be excluded."

"There is a feeling they have sacrificed everything for the sake of Kosovo's status. Not just the war, the burning and destruction, but everything they have sacrificed over the past eight years ... simply to have a status solution.""
http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKBYT83302220070808

Demonstrations yes if peaceful but remember No Violence - NATO will act. I guess the ethnic-Albanians who have been duped by their leadership and the US with promises that were not theirs to deliver will be feeling let down and especially given that "negotiations" mean negotiantions. But, all along I have said make the best of what is and realise that win-win is possible and still is - economic well being is more important than illegal status. Win-win is still there for the taking and it is better that the jaw-jaw continues till the compromise that all agree on is found which it be the outcome for stability and economic development.

Predictor in 1912, there was no UN, therefore no "international Law" as we know it today. Comparing the two is futile as when the UN was created, it was designed to create a new framework for relations between states. that simply didn't exist in 1912. It's like comparing chalk with cheese, so 99% of what you wrote was meaningless!! Please write less next time in order to preserve my eyesight. Thankyou.

Teni,
"And Princip let me assure you that the Albanians will go to the 'negotiations'. If you ever bothered to read any Albanian papers or to watch the news you would know. They'll go there and pretend to discuss and wait it out "

- I think the "pretending" is what the US will be most unhappy with as I am sure the EU will point out and the Russians won't need to say I told you so! Dear me talk about Freudian slips...

What Predictor wrote is extremely important :

"In fact it was Serbia that acted in contradiction with international law in 1912 when it annexed Kosovo through military occupation after its aggression against the Ottoman Empire..."

This colourful claim illustrates the mindset of Albanian exremists, totally devoid of facts and logic, made of mix of brazen lies and naive expectations.

Predictor,
Wikipedia.com as a reliable source? Please.
My sixteen-year-old son was not permitted to use wikipedia as a reference when writing a paper last year in his World History class. Anyone can edit the contents, even those who are illiterate.
You say, “you will read the real international history rather than one sided Serbian one”. So, we are to believe, according to you, that Albanians who contribute to wikipedia are truthful and not one sided? I don’t believe you.

Certainly not ashamed of my Boskovic name. I made a BBC4 documentary with that name and therefore introduced myself as 'Shelmerdine'Boskovic' to the millions who watched it. Hardly hiding behind my ethnic origin eh? You try typing 'Anthony Shelmerdine'Boskovic Uk' before every post!!!! Its a long name.

As for Teni.... i was merely pointing out that 1912 was seen by Serbia (and the watching world) as a nation taking back her for province. I do not support a pan-Byzantine attack on present day Turkey as it is not the Ottoman Empire. It is a republic. However, in 1912 Serbia was fighting the Ottoman Empire just as in 1389 etc etc. I feel that you've twisted my point as no where in my comment do i suggest an attack on any nation?

As for my degree Aleks.... it may just be a 'BAhons' but it wasn't state sponsered nonsense churned out by some communist university peddling myths and half truths. I'm rightly proud that i specialised in the Balkans and its value certainly stands out on this site.

common sense indicates that since atishari plan was junked in the UNSC, independence is out of the negotiating table. the best the troika could recommend is as I said before something based on china-Hong Kong - Taiwan system. in short, 1 country 2 systems is the most acceptable solution to both parties. its a median between NO INDEPENDENCE AND INDEPENDENCE.

I find it amazing that so many Albanians get on this site to tell us what is going to happen. Why? You aren't going to change anyone's mind, and all you do is instigate and propogate, just like in Kosovo. What's next - are you going to claim B92 as an Illyrian web site that was actually Albanian even before Al Gore invented the internet. My suggestion is promote peace and reconciliation and not veiled threats. Let's just wait and see what comes out these talks and beyond. There's no point in predicting the outcome, as your predictions have thus far failed miserably.

Teni,

I dont care what reasons you may possess for wanting me 'not to be allowed to write anymore'? I think deep down inside it pains you that i dont have to break sweat to deconstruct your arguements. It is you who isn't welcome on B92. Civilised debate is about argueing with intelligence and respect. Calling for my expulsion (which is what you're suggesting) just because i disagree with your viewpoint is the behaviour of a spoilt brat.

Teni
'Independence or nothing'?

Well nothing ofcourse! Yes u r right, there r many different proposals here by Serbs. While all the Serbs are treated to alban comments of illirians this and illirians that. So I mean realistically come on.

THE SITUATION IS MY DEAR ALBAN COUNTRYMAN:

-WEST (US+GERMANY) had NO idea that Russia would re-emerge so fast in global politics that their (US+GERMAN) heads are spinning. They thought they could give you independence but world has changed. So much so that US will eventually abandon this plan and recommend to u some form of autonomy, if they can not get the EU united. Its really that simple.

The EU does not have half the support necessary for unilateral declaration of independence of Kosovo. While for as long as Russia supplies EU with roughly 30% of its energy (some countries with over 80%) its very, VERY unlikely that u will have the necessary support.

US will not do this on their own because their senate would not approve such a bill in a million years.

So what it all boils down to is will countries such as Greece, Slovenia, Spain... recognise you unilateraly.

Not unless they want to stir up ethinc tensions in their own countries as well as having their energy supplies cut by disobeying Russia. All to satisfy US in its quest to break international law and in turn they get nothing from the States for their support.

EU's future is with energy rich Russia and 'free' labor China, and not with the consuming US.

Predictor, just listen to yourself.

"The Serbian minority was greatly expanded with the violent colonization that occurred between two world wars; nevertheless their percentage never exceeded 10% of the overall population."

Census 1961
646,604 Albanians (67.1%)
227,016 Serbs (23.5%)
37,588 Montenegrins (3.9%)
etc.

Census 1971: 1,243,693 total inhabitants

916,168 Albanians or 73.7%
228,264 Serbs (18.4%)
31,555 Montenegrins (2.5%)
etc. etc.

Census 1981: 1,584,558 total inhabitants

1,226,736 Albanians (77.42%)
209,498 Serbs (13.2%)
27,028 Montenegrins (1.7%)

etc.

I'm afraid that the rest of the comment is not more serious or accurate.

I agree with Benny. This becoming a political game. They should start looking for a solutions.
Somebody pointed here that Bosnian Serbs will want to separate too.
This is a thing that bothers me from the beginning.
Why didn't we have international conference setting the rules when Yugoslavia was falling apart?

whatever happpens there the serbs in republica srpska in bosnia should seperate from the rest and republica srpska krajina should also seperate and the people of krajina back to their land and govern them self, like they did centuries ago. thats serbs land anyway and then partition kosovo

Olf, has it ever in the last nine years occurred to you that you were deceived?

Do you remember when Serbia was 'bombed into submission' by NATO?

Why didn't NATO force the Serbs to sign away Kosovo and Metohija on the spot???

Teni: "I think that Anthony with the difficult last name and the BA degree should not be allowed to write here anymore."

Why? You have to come to a Serbian news site because you do not have a similarly open forum for discussion, and think you can start banning the views of others?

Wow! Anthony Shelmerdine seems to have got under your skin. For someone who supports the publication of hitlists of young reservists it seems particularly ironic to call for another poster to be censored.

Anthony mentioned that he had studied history and has a personal in-depth knowledge of the Balkans in response to a question about history. Seems logical to me, and quite ridiculous for you to distort this or try and somehow use it as a cheap means to discredit his arguments.

Why not tell us a bit about your own credentials?

Excellent summary of the state of affairs Cvele.

Rade: "Do you remember when Serbia was 'bombed into submission' by NATO? Why didn't NATO force the Serbs to sign away Kosovo and Metohija on the spot???"

Exactly! This was not a win by Nato as Princip has also pointed out many times. They had to allow Serbia to keep her boundaries including Kosovo.

The 'war' ended - which is always a good thing - but that was the time when new boundaries could have been agreed.

And teni - you say that I am an advocater of 'peace and love' like it's a bad thing. Only a lunatic or psychopath would be pro war (including polticians) unless it is to stop an invasion of their own territory, which is certainly NOT the case!

John 1st
"Al Gore invented the internet"

LOL. He was helping with this process, i wouldn't say that he flat out invented it himself.

Kate, thank you. I notice no pro-Albanian responded. And no pro-Albanian poster addressed the key message of the article. The Ahtissari plan is dead and Ahtissari himself is no longer a part of the negotiations. Hmmm... Another 'victory' for the anti-international law side?

PB,

I think predictor wrotte (NOT PASTED) the post, and it is a fabulous one.
Its a different story that you and all you serbian posters dont like it 'cause it explains greatly in chronological manner how Serbia annexed Kosovo.
Again, you can not have it both ways.
What you do is legal, if the other side does similar what you did, oh no....its illegal.

Kate,
US Government has not had it with Albanians, in contrary, they like them very much. And , maybe it will prove as the most succesful project in US Foreign policy.

Lets get Kosovo INDEPENDENT and then will have **LOVE and PEACE** amongst each other.

predictor - you are comparing Kosovo with East Timor and Singapore, there is a big difference there that does not work in Albanian favour, they are both non-Muslim states that separated from Muslim ones.
Also if Serbs occupied Kosovo 100 years ago as you say then who built all those hundreds of Christian churches there 700 years ago? Maybe Albanian Muslims?

Well, whether we consider history argument or not Kosovo belongs to Serbia. Historically Serbs were there before Albanians, presently Resolution 1244 spells it all. Albanians were duped by good old Madeleine Albright.

A remark to Predoctor: you have to visit Serbia and its part Kosovo first - before you write so lengthy highly controvercial and anacurate lecture.

To suggest the victim of this Ottoman aggression (Serbia) playing by the Ottoman rules (right of conquest) is unprincipled is a ludicrous suggestion. 'A' took from 'B' (Ottomans took from Serbia) so 'B' took it back from 'A' (Serbia took it back from the Ottomans). Simple maths really...
(Anthony Shelmerdine (BAhons History UCL), 8. August 2007 14:05)
And "0" brought "A", meaning, the Serbs brought KosovA from the Carpats in the seventh century - right Tony???

Historically Serbs were there before Albanians, ....
(Python, 9. August 2007 09:49)
Historically Serbs were in the Carpats, and Albanian ancestors were to the Danube...

one Question to all albanians who care to answer: When you say serbs would be the best treated minority under Ahtisaari plan, how are you planning to actually to do it? I mean, serbs are mistreated for eight years now, how would one proposal from a finnish guy change everything all of a sudden? Shouldn't you have been following the same standards stated in the proposal regarding minorities already all these years? Just tell me the plan, and don't start with "serbs mistreated us first", "independence will change everything" arguments. Trust is the key here, and it should be earned.It doesn't come in the form of some piece of paper written by a foreigner. You don't have to convince me about albanians good intensions, just convince the serbs...