"Serbia, Russia to have joint policy in upcoming talks"

Am I reading a different article to Afrim and Olf? Is there a fault on the system?
The article that I have read says that the Serbian government are setting ground rules for the forthcoming talks.

They do not arrogantly say that all of their terms will be accepted, but have a stately approach to discussions and their terms appear fair and rational.

They are right to set ground rules after all of the uncertainty caused by certain countries pushing for talks with a predeterimed outcome. To me that is as much of an oxymoron as the term 'humanitarian war'.

Now, I wonder what of this small amount of comment can be distorted into some sort of accusation that I am in fact a Serbian nationalist.

Just to set the record straight - again - I am not Serbian. I am a concerned European who believes that it would be a great mistake to change borders to appease a separatist group which has been violent and continues to threaten violence.

This is a terrible precedent for Europe and the world.

Afrim,

Slovakia was only for the UN process and would accept independence if it was through the UN - if you had not noticed but last month the Athisaari plan was well and truly shelved. Also the Slovak Parliment have enacted a law that stops the recognition via any other process other then via the UN - this was the Slovaks compromise - they would agree only if it was done via the UN any other way will be denounced. Thus there will be no EU agreement outwith the UN so you better hope the negotiation skills have been brushed up!

Afrim Hoxha
You have absolutely no concept of the problems that are infront of you.

Slovakia seperated from Czechoslovakia like Montenegro left the union of Serbia and Montenegro. There is no union of Serbia and Kosovo, there is however, Serbia. So Kosovo is going no where.

As for the governements that went to war in Serbia in 99 they all signed a peace treaty known as a resolution 1244 confirming that Kosovo is part of Serbia. Do you expect some of them to break that resolution now that they have the desired Government installed. Its like they are trying to bring down their own regime.

As for the set rules. The ones that are protecting you are the ones that set the rules. Now they are trying to unsuccessfully break them. The consequences are too high for some countries to approve.

Have a nice day.
CCCC

Afrim - you are absolutely right, the winners set the rules. Serbs are winners in WWI and WWII, and you vehemently supported the Nazis and were losers. In addition, at the end of 78 days of illegal and criminal bombing of Serbia, your friends signed UNSC resolution 1244, which guarantees the territorial integrity of Serbia. So again, Serbia are the winners and you are the losers. Nothing ever changes.

Afrim: "dont you stop and think that something is wrong with your way of thinking because you are one of the very very very few "europeans" who think that Serbia was right and kosovar albanians were wrong."

Most people just followed the media which just reported as it was told. Many, as always, just didn't care.

But you seem to have completely underestimated the number of people in Western Europe who were against the attack on Serbia, or who believed that the KLA were some whiter than white group of freedom fighters.

Afrim, why would you be in favour of supposed democracy when you decry me so much for using my right of free speech or thought?!

Cvele,

spot on but I guess Afrim will be only too self absorbed to ignore the reality of UN laws and regulations that were formulated and agreed by the "winners" as Afrim puts it. Afrim, Slovakia is a UN recognised member state just as Serbia (including its province) so I think it matters greatly regarding sovereignity and the protection of sovereignity!

Afrim given that 1244 (signed 10th June 1999 i.e. end of war) was not replaced and will never be replaced by Ahtisaari's plan what do you think all these negotiations that are about to start are all about other then Autonomy ???

George – USA: It is because of people like you that USA is in Iraq. American policy on Iraq and Yugoslavia was and is driven by the most blatant yellow journalism since the Nazi Era and the Cold War. Western press seldom if ever mentioned the KLA in its reports. The major newspapers wrote entire stories on the conflict without mentioning the KLA once. When the TV media dealt with the issue particularly the CNN Clinton told you that 100,000 Albanians were killed. The State Department came out with figures like 225, 000 and one report even said 500, 000 Albanians were killed. In 2006 report states that only 4000 persons died and many were killed by NATO and the KLA. In March 2006 the Red Cross lists a figure of 2, 398 as missing. The reliable number of killed and missing is 6, 398 both Serb and Albanian. The press reported that in the town of Ljubinic there was a mass grave holding some 350 bodies. Seven bodies were found and I might add seven too many. Citing these numbers does not mitigate Albanian, NATO or Serb guilt but it shows how people like George swallow the ”pablum” dished out by Larry Kink and Christiana Amanpour on CNN. This conflict was orchestrated so Americans who did not know the location of Kosovo “saw the conflict in terms of GOOD GUYS and BAD GUYS”

There were people who did not cheer. “People like Robert Novak, Noam Chomsky and even Pope John Paul II” spoke out against NATO. There were also many progressive lawyers and bloggers who spoke out against the NATO propaganda. Occasionally we see some like senator Brownback speaking out as his letter to Bush attest. Thomas E Woods in his recent book quotes from Brownback’s letter where he deplored the lies and the crimes against the Serbs, Roma and Albanians and he decries the expulsion of 250 thousand, the destruction of historical monuments and the continuous harassment of old and the young.” You George need to look at your government legacy in Kosovo and how Clinton and the Mainstream Media rehabilitated the KLA who were on Clinton’s CIA terrorist list in 1998. While you are at it read the Implementation II to the Rambouillet agreement which the press never mentioned and no self respecting country could accept. George your platitude about the other republics is another delusion that Kate should not waste her time in answering, but again it might be better if she did since it is better that she informs you.

KATE, you say that you are not a serbian but a "concerned" european and at the same time accuse albanians of crimes and make believe that the serbs were innocent all along. But you KATE are forgetting the FACTS that every country of EUROPE-NATO to which you say you belong, fought against Serbia in 1999 to stop the crimes of Serbia against the albanians. Since every country of Europe fought against Seriba, dont you stop and think that something is wrong with your way of thinking because you are one of the very very very few "europeans" who think that Serbia was right and kosovar albanians were wrong. I would suggest to you to do a reality check for the events of 1990-1999.

PRINCIP. I mentioned Slovakia as one example who after all agreed to accept the Independence of Kosova even as you mention it. But after all... Who the hell is Slovakia ? isnt it a country that was seperated from Czech Republic because they could not live together? Slovakia was seperated for herself from another group of people and do they really have the moral right to say that another group of People should not be seperated from another group of people? And plus adding into this, Slovakia was not even abused by the czechs the way The albanians were abused and humiliated by the serbs.
Anyway, do you know who sets the rules? Its the winners who set the rules. THese international rules were set by the winners after the end of WW2. Therefore my dear friend once again the rules are set by the winners of the wars and if you did not know who the winners of the 1999 war were here is the Answer : it was the Kosovar albanians together with USA and EU while you and your Russia were the loosers.
This is the reality, like it or not you have to deal with it. Kosova is independent and there is no other way.
Thanks

Do you beleive, is this guy Koshuitinca crazu\y or what; "Albanian minority in province", this realy made me laugh so had that he is telling serbs in serbia that Albanians are a minority in Kosova. Imagen to have a leades as such who openly lies to his peole and it's amazing they beleive him. I got one thing for serbs come and visit Kosova and see who is the minortiy in republic of Kosova.
(ahmet isufi, 6. August 2007 18:02)

that comment makes no sense. that comment proved that you are writing anything. Ahmet you should seriously consider before writing.

WOW Mr.Tadic wants to define the form of the discussion. What happened to conditioned negotiations in Vienna? Politicians are very strange.
Yesterday Svilanovic started to prepare the Public with the inevitable Independence of Kosova. Statement says that S-Negotiating team is going to spend money in negotiating nothing better for Serbia. I fact the solution looks like to give north of Kosova autonomy within independent Kosova. This statement told the Serbian public for the first time that the most powerful countries are prepared to recognize the independence of Kosova if it is declared by the K-politicians.

Well, it looks like Kosova will be independent with no Decartelization but with the autonomy of the North Kosova. Strange solution!

In the beginning of the Vienna Conference none of the countries accepted openly the Independence of Kosova, but after the Vienna the overwhelming majority accepted the Indpendence of kosova.
Unfortunately Mr. Tadic did not tell the truth in this case but tried to use some propaganda of Kostunica type.
In the beginning for example Slovakia was not so much for the Independence of Kosova but now Slovakia is for the independence of Kosova.
Kosova will be independent as there is no other way or solution. Its the biggest compromise that we the albanians could make. Serbian governent will not be happy but The majority of serb people will be happy because only without Kosova can Serbia prosper because the serbian government then can focus on helping its own people.
Thanks.

George - what are you talking about?! Talk about a distortion of words. I didn't infer and don't think anything of the sort.

Sounds like you should spend some of your analysis on your own very distorted train of thought instead of trying to twist my words.

miri - you're right. There were many others apart from me who felt exactly the same. Thank goodness. I never thought otherwise.

But why should you or any of the others on here care if I as a non Serbian European did not agree with the bombing and do not agree with illegal independence?

I am an Irish~American who has a degree in Eastern European studies. I have to say that I am outragged by what is happening in Serbia. What about international law? Kosovo is Serbia~period. There are many reasons why this should not be taking place: first it's going to set a dangerous precedent in the world. Think of all the breakaway proviences! Second, it is going to create a gaza strip right in the heart of Europe. This will effect tourism, much of the European economy is based on tourism, especially in the Balkans. Personally, as a Christian American, I dont want a Muslim state in the heart of Europe. More and more Americans are supporting our Serbian~christian brothers and sisters, and I am one of them!

"Most people just followed the media which just reported as it was told. Many, as always, just didn't care"

-except you Kate who were able to look above and beyond of what the others saw in middle of darkness in the search for the "truth" with a candle in your hand just like Sokrates. Don't flatter yourself Kate, your comments are at the best very cynical.

Walter, you hit the nail on the head.
That is the truth.
The numbers of victim in the Yugoslavian wars, were so much inflated (against the serbs), that the younger generations will laugh at the "accomplishments" of journalism as a means of propaganda of the past era.
The same numerical inflation as in KiM occurred on the question of how many Bosnian women were raped during 92-95.
The highly inflated 50,000 raped women figure finally degraded to 2000 (serb/croat/muslim).

So 12000% inflated numbers against the serbs was and is a very common practice.

The international Community should have been more drastical and active. It literally slept during the Yugoslavian events.
Comments like the ones that Walter referred to by Clinton, made me keep distances from America, it made me sick.
America lost from it. Lost its reliability.

I wander when false propaganda will be under trial in the Hague.

In fact, with this they are trying to condition the negotiations. If this is done by K-Albanian side than it would be dangerous and unacceptable.

In this site is sense that some people think that they are more Europeans than others living in Europe. I sense that some think that k-Albanians do not care at all about their life’s, future in safe and prosperous Europe. In fact, K-Albanians want nothing more than freedom, jobs and prosperity. They just do not want freedom, jobs and prosperity to be dictated from someone. They just don’t want their life’s to depend on someone that has terrorised their predecessors. In fact, Europe has learned a lesson from the past and that’s why they want to find a long term solution for Kosova not a quick fix as some suggest here.

If no solution after 115 days left than Independence to be declared. It will be recognised G8 – Russia at the beginning, at later stages by most of counties and in the end by Serbia itself, since no EU for Serbia with Kosova problem

It is not the first time and it will not be the last time that laws suite the situation on the ground. Good luck

Do you beleive, is this guy Koshuitinca crazu\y or what; "Albanian minority in province", this realy made me laugh so had that he is telling serbs in serbia that Albanians are a minority in Kosova. Imagen to have a leades as such who openly lies to his peole and it's amazing they beleive him. I got one thing for serbs come and visit Kosova and see who is the minortiy in republic of Kosova.

resolution 1244

does anything else really need to be said?

"He added that "serious and difficult challenges await Serbia".

Like how to get belgrade to realise how badly they have lost.


He added that “the majority of countries, when the Kosova talks began earlier in Vienna, had the idea that Kosova independence was the best solution, but the situation today is different.”

He is right, now it's unheard from a UN/EU politician to mention anything OTHER than independence as a solution.

BTW why are serbs all about international law now? What happened to this law of killing/rapeing/torturing people during the whole 20th century when Kosovars (mainly Albanians) were forced and expelled from their homes so shesheli could make Kosova into Kosovo?

Independence for Shqipet

Kate I Love your comment “Just to set the record straight - again - I am not Serbian. I am a concerned European who believes that it would be a great mistake to change borders to appease a separatist group which has been violent and continues to threaten violence.” Like you said it would be a great mistake to change borders to appease a separatist group like (The Croatians, Bosnians, Slovenians, Montenegrins, Macedonians, and The Albanians) That the same thought that Milovsevic had, so according to you the Serbs should of Killed all Croatians, Bosnians, Slovenians, Montenegrins, Macedonians, and Albanians and the Yugoslavian borders would be the same and Milovsevic dream of a Greater Serbia would be achieved. Kate for not being a Serb you spread more Milovsevic’s Propaganda than any other Serb in this site.

God bless you on your dream of a Great Serbia,

All of you are shaking empty bail of straw ”praznu slamu) . US wants military base in Kosovo!
Iran, Syria and Iraq should support Serbia. Think about IT??????????????
Aca USA

Kostunica, i suggest one more thing, except joint policy, you should suggest joint budget as well, mmm? I am sure they will accept it, because your russian brothers are ready to even share their poor budget with your empty one.

From a story elsewhere on B92......RFE reported that the book looks into the way in which the Clinton administration cooperated with Iran to arm the Mujahedin fighting in Bosnia, including Al-Qaeda, with weapons and equipment worth millions of dollars.....And then Clinton set his sights on Kosovo. We know the rest of that story. When will the mainstream media start reporting on that criminal administration's actions? This guy is responsible for 100,00's of deaths - on all continents.

How hard is to understand religion and politics.When kosovo was ataked where was the religion...and the religion leaders ? Didnt they think that when you destroy muslim mosks whats next...? ater all we are all ballcan tribe...Wood n american father who lost his son in the batle with Osama bin Ladin agree to live next door to each other.?how do you fine out which serb have no blod on there hands ? What is one to belive...? during the comunist party none of the religius site were important...in fact you were not allowed to pray...the religion site were more like museums for the fact of age and history...and now sudenly Kosovo is the hartland of Serbia.I like some of the comets made by the educated serbiens that kosovo means nothing tho them...and that I belive.
Thank you,

Kite, The truth hurts doesn’t it!!!

Walter, Get your fact straight, “In 2006 report states that only 4000 persons died and many were killed by NATO and the KLA”.
http://shr.aaas.org/kosovo/icty_report.pdf “From approximately 10 000 victims reported
by name, this process identi_ed 4 400 unique individuals. The number 4 400 is
not an estimate; it is the actual count of uniquely reported victims.
Second, because the victims identi_ed in the data sources were not the only
victims of killings, it was necessary to estimate the number of undocumented
victims to determine the overall estimate of total number killed. This _gure,
10 356, was generated by means of a widely-used demographic statistical technique
known as .multiple systems estimation,. which depends on samples of
the population.9 Because the overall estimate of 10 356 killed was generated
from samples . and not from the (unknowable) perfect list of deaths.a margin
of error must be computed. We estimate this interval to be 9 002 to 12 122.”

And In your 4000 figure you will find the names a BABIES KILLED BY THE SERBIAN ARMY like Two year OLD Imeraj, Afrim; Two year OLD Caka, Diona; Two year OLD Vejsa, Rita: Four year OLD Haxhiavdija, Rina; five year OLD Haxhiavdija, Egzon, five year OLD Vejsa, Arlind, Six year OLD Caka, Delvina and So on. Walter what did this BABIES do so bad that it cost-ed them their lives. And this is just from one mass gravesite GOD BLESS THEIR SOULS. Walter, you should read the names, ages, and sex of them 4,400 reported Victims and you will see that most of them are Babies, Children, Woman, or Old people.
Most of your comments are right, but you forgot that at the time, all Westerner journalists were kicked out of the country and they did not have a reliable news source. Coming to the KLA, it is true that the CIA listed the KLA as a terrorists group in 1998, because it was listed as a terrorists group by the Yugoslavian Government. Later the CIA removed them from their terrorists list because they found out that the KLA were FREEDOM FIGHTERS and were protecting their families and friends from the Yugoslavian Army. One more thing Walter in 1991 USA and George Bush Senior was the most pro Yugoslavia in the world and they gave Milovsevic ten billion dollars to kept Yugoslavia to gather.

Ahilleas stop with your false propaganda, at list Walter state facts maybe not all but most!!!

George – USA: Anything related to the ICTY is a lie, a manipulation of evidence by a court that is nor independent, that does not follow the rule of law and does not follow due process all prerequisites for a impartial and fair trial. In any western nation that whose legal system is based on British Jurisprudence with which I am familiar The Hague Tribunal would have been closed in the first week and you sir provide this source as evidence?

Herman Peterson essay for which I provide a link below states “ICTY was thoroughgoing, with initial organization, staffing, funding, and the vetting of top personnel by high NATO officials, 25 with the NATO powers providing (or withholding 26) information and serving as the police arm of the ICTY, and most critically, with the ICTY’s actions closely geared to NATO demands. The political role of the ICTY was even openly acknowledged by former State Department lawyer Michael Scharf, who stated back in 1999 that the organization was seen in the government as “little more than a public relations tool,” useful also “to isolate offending leaders diplomatically” and to “fortify the international political will to employ economic sanctions or use force.”27”

In every court case there are two protagonists or more in this case it was Yugoslavia and NATO. Yugoslavia charged NATO leaders with crimes against humanity, waging an illegal war, treaty violation and humanitarian destruction but NATO refused to hear the case. Why should they it was their court. So that is why I see it as nothing more than a tool of NATO. NATO and USA in particular refuse to submit their nationals to such Tribunals, and they make deals with nations so that US citizens will be protected against prosecution and not charged with crimes against humanity. They claim this is to protect US citizens against trumped up charges which is nonsense. When the Court hears the Yugoslav case against the NATO leaders and when the case against all those in The Hague goes before a court that is independent, follows the rule of law and due process only then I will believe its evidence.


You name children killed as you claim by Serbian soldiers but you don’t tell me how this happened and you also don’t name children blown up by KLA grenades while having coffee laughing, talking with their friends. You know full well how these events started, but regardless how they started it is an absolute shame and a crime that anyone died. To me anyone who kills a child does not feed a child, abuses a child cannot love his own children.

Herman Peterson essay for which I provide a link below provides the following statistics for number of people killed in Kosovo. My statistics came from Thomas E. Woods Jr.’s book “33 Questions About American History You’re Not Supposed to Ask” (Crown Forum Publishers, 2007) and in the book Woods quotes from the link which I provide. This is what Herman Peterson write “This was eventually pared to 11,000, although after a uniquely intensive search only some 4,000 bodies were found, including unknown numbers of fighters and victims of NATO and KLA actions; and as of early March, 2006, only 2,398 people remain listed by the Red Cross as still missing 10 There has never been any hint of criticism in the mainstream media of the inflated numbers given by U.S. officials, nor have there been any doubts expressed as to the accuracy of the 11,000 figure, although it came from sources of proven unreliability and was 70 percent higher than the official body count plus list of missing (6,398).

Anyone of you on this forum would be well served to read Herman Peterson essay found at this link. http://www.coldtype.net/Assets.06/Essays.06/0506.Milosevic.pdf

George-USA:Where is your evidence about the ten billion? Do you mean the missiles he manufactured that NATO used to destroy 150 billion of Yugoslav infrastructures?

George - USA : I gave you my sources. My statistics came from Thomas E. Woods Jr.’s book “33 Questions About American History you’re Not Supposed to Ask” (Crown Forum Publishers, 2007), I saw 80% of Milosevic trial or the “Lynching” as Greenspan Canada’s most renown criminal lawyer called it. It was enough for me who taught Law for 25 years to see that the only person with dignity at that lynching was Milosevic. Judge May, Kwon and Robertson and later Boinnamy represented the low life of the legal system, “The NATO judges soon the sentence sign, and wretches hang that stock holders in America may dine. Sorry Alexander Pope for abusing your words. So the link I provide is a mix of fact statements, brilliant and all I get from you is hot air which ICTY publishes. I asked you for your source for the ten billion is that hot air as well. George - USA when you have nothing to say its best to say nothing,

Jill, if you think Kosovo is "the heart of Europe" I somehow find it hard to beleive you are an Irish-American...

Walter for a man that does not like the ICTY, Why do you use there figures about the 4000 killed “Statement to the Press by Carla del Ponte” and reading you link, that 4000 killed does not state who and how was Killed, and you said “In 2006 report states that only 4000 persons died and many were killed by NATO and the KLA”. Where do you read that or you just made it up???? Also about that link, it is max up with Facts, Statements; He said that, opinions, and news reports, there is nothing new in that link that you cannot find in the web. So good luck spreading your propaganda “MILESOVIC’S DEATH IN THE PROPAGANDA SYSTEM” and when you have some Facts to back your propaganda than reply to this comment. So as of now ICTY estimate of 9,002 to 12,122 still stands and the actual number will never be known!!!

Sorry Walter but my link to the 10 billion is no longer there, but it came from Yugoslavia.org, U.S. aid to Yugoslavia. One thing we got in command is the dislike of the ICTY, You know more about the ICTY than I do, because all I know is what I read in the media. But one thing that disturbers me is that you use sources that use some ICTY figure But lives the important ones out!!!

God Bless,

KATE, you say that you are not a serbian but a "concerned" european and at the same time accuse albanians of crimes and make believe that the serbs were innocent all along. But you KATE are forgetting the FACTS that every country of EUROPE-NATO to which you say you belong, fought against Serbia in 1999 to stop the crimes of Serbia against the albanians. Since every country of Europe fought against Seriba, dont you stop and think that something is wrong with your way of thinking because you are one of the very very very few "europeans" who think that Serbia was right and kosovar albanians were wrong. I would suggest to you to do a reality check for the events of 1990-1999.

PRINCIP. I mentioned Slovakia as one example who after all agreed to accept the Independence of Kosova even as you mention it. But after all... Who the hell is Slovakia ? isnt it a country that was seperated from Czech Republic because they could not live together? Slovakia was seperated for herself from another group of people and do they really have the moral right to say that another group of People should not be seperated from another group of people? And plus adding into this, Slovakia was not even abused by the czechs the way The albanians were abused and humiliated by the serbs.
Anyway, do you know who sets the rules? Its the winners who set the rules. THese international rules were set by the winners after the end of WW2. Therefore my dear friend once again the rules are set by the winners of the wars and if you did not know who the winners of the 1999 war were here is the Answer : it was the Kosovar albanians together with USA and EU while you and your Russia were the loosers.
This is the reality, like it or not you have to deal with it. Kosova is independent and there is no other way.
Thanks

In the beginning of the Vienna Conference none of the countries accepted openly the Independence of Kosova, but after the Vienna the overwhelming majority accepted the Indpendence of kosova.
Unfortunately Mr. Tadic did not tell the truth in this case but tried to use some propaganda of Kostunica type.
In the beginning for example Slovakia was not so much for the Independence of Kosova but now Slovakia is for the independence of Kosova.
Kosova will be independent as there is no other way or solution. Its the biggest compromise that we the albanians could make. Serbian governent will not be happy but The majority of serb people will be happy because only without Kosova can Serbia prosper because the serbian government then can focus on helping its own people.
Thanks.

WOW Mr.Tadic wants to define the form of the discussion. What happened to conditioned negotiations in Vienna? Politicians are very strange.
Yesterday Svilanovic started to prepare the Public with the inevitable Independence of Kosova. Statement says that S-Negotiating team is going to spend money in negotiating nothing better for Serbia. I fact the solution looks like to give north of Kosova autonomy within independent Kosova. This statement told the Serbian public for the first time that the most powerful countries are prepared to recognize the independence of Kosova if it is declared by the K-politicians.

Well, it looks like Kosova will be independent with no Decartelization but with the autonomy of the North Kosova. Strange solution!

In fact, with this they are trying to condition the negotiations. If this is done by K-Albanian side than it would be dangerous and unacceptable.

In this site is sense that some people think that they are more Europeans than others living in Europe. I sense that some think that k-Albanians do not care at all about their life’s, future in safe and prosperous Europe. In fact, K-Albanians want nothing more than freedom, jobs and prosperity. They just do not want freedom, jobs and prosperity to be dictated from someone. They just don’t want their life’s to depend on someone that has terrorised their predecessors. In fact, Europe has learned a lesson from the past and that’s why they want to find a long term solution for Kosova not a quick fix as some suggest here.

If no solution after 115 days left than Independence to be declared. It will be recognised G8 – Russia at the beginning, at later stages by most of counties and in the end by Serbia itself, since no EU for Serbia with Kosova problem

It is not the first time and it will not be the last time that laws suite the situation on the ground. Good luck

"Most people just followed the media which just reported as it was told. Many, as always, just didn't care"

-except you Kate who were able to look above and beyond of what the others saw in middle of darkness in the search for the "truth" with a candle in your hand just like Sokrates. Don't flatter yourself Kate, your comments are at the best very cynical.

Kate I Love your comment “Just to set the record straight - again - I am not Serbian. I am a concerned European who believes that it would be a great mistake to change borders to appease a separatist group which has been violent and continues to threaten violence.” Like you said it would be a great mistake to change borders to appease a separatist group like (The Croatians, Bosnians, Slovenians, Montenegrins, Macedonians, and The Albanians) That the same thought that Milovsevic had, so according to you the Serbs should of Killed all Croatians, Bosnians, Slovenians, Montenegrins, Macedonians, and Albanians and the Yugoslavian borders would be the same and Milovsevic dream of a Greater Serbia would be achieved. Kate for not being a Serb you spread more Milovsevic’s Propaganda than any other Serb in this site.

God bless you on your dream of a Great Serbia,

Am I reading a different article to Afrim and Olf? Is there a fault on the system?
The article that I have read says that the Serbian government are setting ground rules for the forthcoming talks.

They do not arrogantly say that all of their terms will be accepted, but have a stately approach to discussions and their terms appear fair and rational.

They are right to set ground rules after all of the uncertainty caused by certain countries pushing for talks with a predeterimed outcome. To me that is as much of an oxymoron as the term 'humanitarian war'.

Now, I wonder what of this small amount of comment can be distorted into some sort of accusation that I am in fact a Serbian nationalist.

Just to set the record straight - again - I am not Serbian. I am a concerned European who believes that it would be a great mistake to change borders to appease a separatist group which has been violent and continues to threaten violence.

This is a terrible precedent for Europe and the world.

Afrim,

Slovakia was only for the UN process and would accept independence if it was through the UN - if you had not noticed but last month the Athisaari plan was well and truly shelved. Also the Slovak Parliment have enacted a law that stops the recognition via any other process other then via the UN - this was the Slovaks compromise - they would agree only if it was done via the UN any other way will be denounced. Thus there will be no EU agreement outwith the UN so you better hope the negotiation skills have been brushed up!

Afrim: "dont you stop and think that something is wrong with your way of thinking because you are one of the very very very few "europeans" who think that Serbia was right and kosovar albanians were wrong."

Most people just followed the media which just reported as it was told. Many, as always, just didn't care.

But you seem to have completely underestimated the number of people in Western Europe who were against the attack on Serbia, or who believed that the KLA were some whiter than white group of freedom fighters.

Afrim, why would you be in favour of supposed democracy when you decry me so much for using my right of free speech or thought?!

"He added that "serious and difficult challenges await Serbia".

Like how to get belgrade to realise how badly they have lost.


He added that “the majority of countries, when the Kosova talks began earlier in Vienna, had the idea that Kosova independence was the best solution, but the situation today is different.”

He is right, now it's unheard from a UN/EU politician to mention anything OTHER than independence as a solution.

BTW why are serbs all about international law now? What happened to this law of killing/rapeing/torturing people during the whole 20th century when Kosovars (mainly Albanians) were forced and expelled from their homes so shesheli could make Kosova into Kosovo?

Independence for Shqipet

Do you beleive, is this guy Koshuitinca crazu\y or what; "Albanian minority in province", this realy made me laugh so had that he is telling serbs in serbia that Albanians are a minority in Kosova. Imagen to have a leades as such who openly lies to his peole and it's amazing they beleive him. I got one thing for serbs come and visit Kosova and see who is the minortiy in republic of Kosova.

How hard is to understand religion and politics.When kosovo was ataked where was the religion...and the religion leaders ? Didnt they think that when you destroy muslim mosks whats next...? ater all we are all ballcan tribe...Wood n american father who lost his son in the batle with Osama bin Ladin agree to live next door to each other.?how do you fine out which serb have no blod on there hands ? What is one to belive...? during the comunist party none of the religius site were important...in fact you were not allowed to pray...the religion site were more like museums for the fact of age and history...and now sudenly Kosovo is the hartland of Serbia.I like some of the comets made by the educated serbiens that kosovo means nothing tho them...and that I belive.
Thank you,

Kostunica, i suggest one more thing, except joint policy, you should suggest joint budget as well, mmm? I am sure they will accept it, because your russian brothers are ready to even share their poor budget with your empty one.

Walter, you hit the nail on the head.
That is the truth.
The numbers of victim in the Yugoslavian wars, were so much inflated (against the serbs), that the younger generations will laugh at the "accomplishments" of journalism as a means of propaganda of the past era.
The same numerical inflation as in KiM occurred on the question of how many Bosnian women were raped during 92-95.
The highly inflated 50,000 raped women figure finally degraded to 2000 (serb/croat/muslim).

So 12000% inflated numbers against the serbs was and is a very common practice.

The international Community should have been more drastical and active. It literally slept during the Yugoslavian events.
Comments like the ones that Walter referred to by Clinton, made me keep distances from America, it made me sick.
America lost from it. Lost its reliability.

I wander when false propaganda will be under trial in the Hague.

Kite, The truth hurts doesn’t it!!!

Walter, Get your fact straight, “In 2006 report states that only 4000 persons died and many were killed by NATO and the KLA”.
http://shr.aaas.org/kosovo/icty_report.pdf “From approximately 10 000 victims reported
by name, this process identi_ed 4 400 unique individuals. The number 4 400 is
not an estimate; it is the actual count of uniquely reported victims.
Second, because the victims identi_ed in the data sources were not the only
victims of killings, it was necessary to estimate the number of undocumented
victims to determine the overall estimate of total number killed. This _gure,
10 356, was generated by means of a widely-used demographic statistical technique
known as .multiple systems estimation,. which depends on samples of
the population.9 Because the overall estimate of 10 356 killed was generated
from samples . and not from the (unknowable) perfect list of deaths.a margin
of error must be computed. We estimate this interval to be 9 002 to 12 122.”

And In your 4000 figure you will find the names a BABIES KILLED BY THE SERBIAN ARMY like Two year OLD Imeraj, Afrim; Two year OLD Caka, Diona; Two year OLD Vejsa, Rita: Four year OLD Haxhiavdija, Rina; five year OLD Haxhiavdija, Egzon, five year OLD Vejsa, Arlind, Six year OLD Caka, Delvina and So on. Walter what did this BABIES do so bad that it cost-ed them their lives. And this is just from one mass gravesite GOD BLESS THEIR SOULS. Walter, you should read the names, ages, and sex of them 4,400 reported Victims and you will see that most of them are Babies, Children, Woman, or Old people.
Most of your comments are right, but you forgot that at the time, all Westerner journalists were kicked out of the country and they did not have a reliable news source. Coming to the KLA, it is true that the CIA listed the KLA as a terrorists group in 1998, because it was listed as a terrorists group by the Yugoslavian Government. Later the CIA removed them from their terrorists list because they found out that the KLA were FREEDOM FIGHTERS and were protecting their families and friends from the Yugoslavian Army. One more thing Walter in 1991 USA and George Bush Senior was the most pro Yugoslavia in the world and they gave Milovsevic ten billion dollars to kept Yugoslavia to gather.

Ahilleas stop with your false propaganda, at list Walter state facts maybe not all but most!!!

Walter for a man that does not like the ICTY, Why do you use there figures about the 4000 killed “Statement to the Press by Carla del Ponte” and reading you link, that 4000 killed does not state who and how was Killed, and you said “In 2006 report states that only 4000 persons died and many were killed by NATO and the KLA”. Where do you read that or you just made it up???? Also about that link, it is max up with Facts, Statements; He said that, opinions, and news reports, there is nothing new in that link that you cannot find in the web. So good luck spreading your propaganda “MILESOVIC’S DEATH IN THE PROPAGANDA SYSTEM” and when you have some Facts to back your propaganda than reply to this comment. So as of now ICTY estimate of 9,002 to 12,122 still stands and the actual number will never be known!!!

Afrim Hoxha
You have absolutely no concept of the problems that are infront of you.

Slovakia seperated from Czechoslovakia like Montenegro left the union of Serbia and Montenegro. There is no union of Serbia and Kosovo, there is however, Serbia. So Kosovo is going no where.

As for the governements that went to war in Serbia in 99 they all signed a peace treaty known as a resolution 1244 confirming that Kosovo is part of Serbia. Do you expect some of them to break that resolution now that they have the desired Government installed. Its like they are trying to bring down their own regime.

As for the set rules. The ones that are protecting you are the ones that set the rules. Now they are trying to unsuccessfully break them. The consequences are too high for some countries to approve.

Have a nice day.
CCCC

Cvele,

spot on but I guess Afrim will be only too self absorbed to ignore the reality of UN laws and regulations that were formulated and agreed by the "winners" as Afrim puts it. Afrim, Slovakia is a UN recognised member state just as Serbia (including its province) so I think it matters greatly regarding sovereignity and the protection of sovereignity!

Afrim given that 1244 (signed 10th June 1999 i.e. end of war) was not replaced and will never be replaced by Ahtisaari's plan what do you think all these negotiations that are about to start are all about other then Autonomy ???

Afrim - you are absolutely right, the winners set the rules. Serbs are winners in WWI and WWII, and you vehemently supported the Nazis and were losers. In addition, at the end of 78 days of illegal and criminal bombing of Serbia, your friends signed UNSC resolution 1244, which guarantees the territorial integrity of Serbia. So again, Serbia are the winners and you are the losers. Nothing ever changes.

miri - you're right. There were many others apart from me who felt exactly the same. Thank goodness. I never thought otherwise.

But why should you or any of the others on here care if I as a non Serbian European did not agree with the bombing and do not agree with illegal independence?

Do you beleive, is this guy Koshuitinca crazu\y or what; "Albanian minority in province", this realy made me laugh so had that he is telling serbs in serbia that Albanians are a minority in Kosova. Imagen to have a leades as such who openly lies to his peole and it's amazing they beleive him. I got one thing for serbs come and visit Kosova and see who is the minortiy in republic of Kosova.
(ahmet isufi, 6. August 2007 18:02)

that comment makes no sense. that comment proved that you are writing anything. Ahmet you should seriously consider before writing.

George - what are you talking about?! Talk about a distortion of words. I didn't infer and don't think anything of the sort.

Sounds like you should spend some of your analysis on your own very distorted train of thought instead of trying to twist my words.

All of you are shaking empty bail of straw ”praznu slamu) . US wants military base in Kosovo!
Iran, Syria and Iraq should support Serbia. Think about IT??????????????
Aca USA

From a story elsewhere on B92......RFE reported that the book looks into the way in which the Clinton administration cooperated with Iran to arm the Mujahedin fighting in Bosnia, including Al-Qaeda, with weapons and equipment worth millions of dollars.....And then Clinton set his sights on Kosovo. We know the rest of that story. When will the mainstream media start reporting on that criminal administration's actions? This guy is responsible for 100,00's of deaths - on all continents.

I am an Irish~American who has a degree in Eastern European studies. I have to say that I am outragged by what is happening in Serbia. What about international law? Kosovo is Serbia~period. There are many reasons why this should not be taking place: first it's going to set a dangerous precedent in the world. Think of all the breakaway proviences! Second, it is going to create a gaza strip right in the heart of Europe. This will effect tourism, much of the European economy is based on tourism, especially in the Balkans. Personally, as a Christian American, I dont want a Muslim state in the heart of Europe. More and more Americans are supporting our Serbian~christian brothers and sisters, and I am one of them!

resolution 1244

does anything else really need to be said?

George – USA: It is because of people like you that USA is in Iraq. American policy on Iraq and Yugoslavia was and is driven by the most blatant yellow journalism since the Nazi Era and the Cold War. Western press seldom if ever mentioned the KLA in its reports. The major newspapers wrote entire stories on the conflict without mentioning the KLA once. When the TV media dealt with the issue particularly the CNN Clinton told you that 100,000 Albanians were killed. The State Department came out with figures like 225, 000 and one report even said 500, 000 Albanians were killed. In 2006 report states that only 4000 persons died and many were killed by NATO and the KLA. In March 2006 the Red Cross lists a figure of 2, 398 as missing. The reliable number of killed and missing is 6, 398 both Serb and Albanian. The press reported that in the town of Ljubinic there was a mass grave holding some 350 bodies. Seven bodies were found and I might add seven too many. Citing these numbers does not mitigate Albanian, NATO or Serb guilt but it shows how people like George swallow the ”pablum” dished out by Larry Kink and Christiana Amanpour on CNN. This conflict was orchestrated so Americans who did not know the location of Kosovo “saw the conflict in terms of GOOD GUYS and BAD GUYS”

There were people who did not cheer. “People like Robert Novak, Noam Chomsky and even Pope John Paul II” spoke out against NATO. There were also many progressive lawyers and bloggers who spoke out against the NATO propaganda. Occasionally we see some like senator Brownback speaking out as his letter to Bush attest. Thomas E Woods in his recent book quotes from Brownback’s letter where he deplored the lies and the crimes against the Serbs, Roma and Albanians and he decries the expulsion of 250 thousand, the destruction of historical monuments and the continuous harassment of old and the young.” You George need to look at your government legacy in Kosovo and how Clinton and the Mainstream Media rehabilitated the KLA who were on Clinton’s CIA terrorist list in 1998. While you are at it read the Implementation II to the Rambouillet agreement which the press never mentioned and no self respecting country could accept. George your platitude about the other republics is another delusion that Kate should not waste her time in answering, but again it might be better if she did since it is better that she informs you.

Jill, if you think Kosovo is "the heart of Europe" I somehow find it hard to beleive you are an Irish-American...

George – USA: Anything related to the ICTY is a lie, a manipulation of evidence by a court that is nor independent, that does not follow the rule of law and does not follow due process all prerequisites for a impartial and fair trial. In any western nation that whose legal system is based on British Jurisprudence with which I am familiar The Hague Tribunal would have been closed in the first week and you sir provide this source as evidence?

Herman Peterson essay for which I provide a link below states “ICTY was thoroughgoing, with initial organization, staffing, funding, and the vetting of top personnel by high NATO officials, 25 with the NATO powers providing (or withholding 26) information and serving as the police arm of the ICTY, and most critically, with the ICTY’s actions closely geared to NATO demands. The political role of the ICTY was even openly acknowledged by former State Department lawyer Michael Scharf, who stated back in 1999 that the organization was seen in the government as “little more than a public relations tool,” useful also “to isolate offending leaders diplomatically” and to “fortify the international political will to employ economic sanctions or use force.”27”

In every court case there are two protagonists or more in this case it was Yugoslavia and NATO. Yugoslavia charged NATO leaders with crimes against humanity, waging an illegal war, treaty violation and humanitarian destruction but NATO refused to hear the case. Why should they it was their court. So that is why I see it as nothing more than a tool of NATO. NATO and USA in particular refuse to submit their nationals to such Tribunals, and they make deals with nations so that US citizens will be protected against prosecution and not charged with crimes against humanity. They claim this is to protect US citizens against trumped up charges which is nonsense. When the Court hears the Yugoslav case against the NATO leaders and when the case against all those in The Hague goes before a court that is independent, follows the rule of law and due process only then I will believe its evidence.


You name children killed as you claim by Serbian soldiers but you don’t tell me how this happened and you also don’t name children blown up by KLA grenades while having coffee laughing, talking with their friends. You know full well how these events started, but regardless how they started it is an absolute shame and a crime that anyone died. To me anyone who kills a child does not feed a child, abuses a child cannot love his own children.

Herman Peterson essay for which I provide a link below provides the following statistics for number of people killed in Kosovo. My statistics came from Thomas E. Woods Jr.’s book “33 Questions About American History You’re Not Supposed to Ask” (Crown Forum Publishers, 2007) and in the book Woods quotes from the link which I provide. This is what Herman Peterson write “This was eventually pared to 11,000, although after a uniquely intensive search only some 4,000 bodies were found, including unknown numbers of fighters and victims of NATO and KLA actions; and as of early March, 2006, only 2,398 people remain listed by the Red Cross as still missing 10 There has never been any hint of criticism in the mainstream media of the inflated numbers given by U.S. officials, nor have there been any doubts expressed as to the accuracy of the 11,000 figure, although it came from sources of proven unreliability and was 70 percent higher than the official body count plus list of missing (6,398).

Anyone of you on this forum would be well served to read Herman Peterson essay found at this link. http://www.coldtype.net/Assets.06/Essays.06/0506.Milosevic.pdf

George-USA:Where is your evidence about the ten billion? Do you mean the missiles he manufactured that NATO used to destroy 150 billion of Yugoslav infrastructures?

George - USA : I gave you my sources. My statistics came from Thomas E. Woods Jr.’s book “33 Questions About American History you’re Not Supposed to Ask” (Crown Forum Publishers, 2007), I saw 80% of Milosevic trial or the “Lynching” as Greenspan Canada’s most renown criminal lawyer called it. It was enough for me who taught Law for 25 years to see that the only person with dignity at that lynching was Milosevic. Judge May, Kwon and Robertson and later Boinnamy represented the low life of the legal system, “The NATO judges soon the sentence sign, and wretches hang that stock holders in America may dine. Sorry Alexander Pope for abusing your words. So the link I provide is a mix of fact statements, brilliant and all I get from you is hot air which ICTY publishes. I asked you for your source for the ten billion is that hot air as well. George - USA when you have nothing to say its best to say nothing,

Sorry Walter but my link to the 10 billion is no longer there, but it came from Yugoslavia.org, U.S. aid to Yugoslavia. One thing we got in command is the dislike of the ICTY, You know more about the ICTY than I do, because all I know is what I read in the media. But one thing that disturbers me is that you use sources that use some ICTY figure But lives the important ones out!!!

God Bless,