Rupel: Kosovo talks in August

One of the problems with this issue that has not been discussed is that, to my knowledge, this is the first time territory is being considered to be taken away from a democratic country. To be sure, territory has been siphened off in the past - Germany, Pakistan, Indonesia, Turkey - but in almost every case, territory was carved up immediately after a war or conflict, and the state under question was a defeated authoritarian state. In Serbia, Milosevic is gone and Serbia is now becoming part of the European concert of nations again. That Kosovo is still in question and that Serbia's response to defend her national interests are through legal and diplomatic means, not military, means that those in favor of granting Kosovo's independence have to push it in ways much different than past situations. Not only that, there needs to be assurances that pushing Kosovo away from Serbia will not destabilize democracy in Belgrade, or the region. As a democracy that is trying to follow international law and not the way of the gun, Serbia needs to be given greater leverage at the negotiating table that its interests in Kosovo will be preserved, and greater assurances that its communities in Kosovo will be protected to the maximum extent - even to the degree of offering K Serbs dual citizenship with Serbia, and granting Serb police and soliders to guard and protect their own municipalities. Hopefully the new round of talks, in the hands of more pragmatic Europeans, will find a middle ground that Washington has unfortunately been too resistant to find.

To everyone who felt the need to critique my comments:

I'm always appreciative of counterarguments, but if you're going to take the time to reply and take up cyperspace with your comments, at least have the respect to say something tangible:

Joe says Serbia is not a democracy without giving any evidence or supporting claims.

Ahmet thinks I'm contradicting myself but conveniently ends his reply right there without enlightening me.

Agim bases the fate of Serbia's democracy on the photo of Kostunica carrying a gun and then goes into a litany of how Kosovo will be independent one way or another, completely missing my points.

And finally, DearMike, whoever s/he is, applies the entirety of Serbian history - most of which was non-democratic - to rebuff my claim of Serbia today, post-2000 democratic.

Lili is the only one who said something intelligent. And Lilly, I'd say Serbs can patrol their own sectors, just as Albanians can patrol theirs, but all are under the executinve control of NATO who have overriding powers of authority.

Guys, please do better in counterarguing me. I don't mind the criticism and I almost appreciate the disagreements, but if you can't say anything substantial but feel the need to say SOMETHING, just shout at your monitor instead.

To Mr.Ruecker: Yes, the clarity with status is needed - it should be autonomy for Kosovo-Metohja in the framework of Serbia as it has been once again fixed by the Serbian Parliament 24 July.

If some one committes murder they would have to be put in jail we kosovars done that what we doing now is the paper work MIKE. One more thing the only way you can get us Kosovars back under SERBIA is by going back to 1997( not 1913) yeah by bringing back all the loved one we lost if you do that then consider Kosova as part of YUGOSLLAVIA. Please B92 show this comment of mine as i think some people need a reminder of what happened never in million years wouldn't let my country roled by a serb anymore would do anything

dual citizenship for serbian,ok,it's not a problem for us
But serbian police in kosovo,certainly not! Serbs in kosovopolice ,ok,in mixed patrols.but no,excuse me we have as french says déja donné to serbian police units to allow them to come back!

Mike,
Serbia under Kostunica now a democratic country? They try to sell it as "democratic" but it is sadly only pseudo democratic.

"[...]to my knowledge, this is the first time territory is being considered to be taken away from a democratic country. "

dem·o·crat·ic

pertaining to or characterized by the principle of political or social equality for all: democratic treatment.


{Reply}
Look at all the times that the serbian government has tried to expel the Kosovar-Albanians in the history...kind of completely shatters this theory that it was "diplomatic" in any way doesn't it?

Kosova is independent according to international law (de jure) through resolution 1244 also de facto independent through PISG institutions for the last 8 years. It's only a matter of time until this Milosevic driven government of serbia wakes up and realises that Kosova isn't serbia's.
I'm sorry if you don't agree but people have started to see beyond the misleading propaganda

[from BBC]
"I support the idea of independence. Things have just been getting worse and worse for the past 8 years.

"Independence might bring a bit of stability. People say Kosovo is Serbian but if it really was, why are we living in this refugee camp?" says Ivan Milic, 24. "

Anyone agree?

Mike , on your first eight lines of oyur comments if you read it carefully waht you wrotte , you will find it that you are contradicting your own self. I hav eno further coments.

Mike talks here about pleasing the government in Serbia, but the issue is not to find a way to please Kostunica who in fact has even a picture holding a gun during the wars in X-Yugoslavia so therefore claims that Mike is making about the progress of democracy in Serbia are plain fake.
The problem here is about finding the best solution for Kosova and people living in Kosova not about pleasing the politicians in Belgrade while hurting the people of Kosova.
Ahtisaari, who dealt with these problems worldwide, gave the proposal that the only viable and best solution is an Independent Kosova and this will be the final outcome.
Everyone knows that there is no solution that both serbs and albanians could agree upon. Even Russia knows this but in this case it favors Russia to drag this problem on and on so by this way the europeans get tired and also that the Balkans can not develop right so the Russians then can easly influence in the decisions in Balkans.
But, whatever Russia thinks or tries to do, after all, Kosova will be Independent and there is no other way.

Mike I completly agree with much of your sentiment regarding the subject of what was in effect a failed attempt by the US and a 'few' European states to partition and dismember the democratic and UN recognised soverign state of Serbia and to legalise it via the UN.

The reality by law (de jure) and the fact (de facto) is that Serbia's province remains an intergral part of it's sovereignity just as it was prior to 10th June 1999- irrespective of what DearMike commentator suggests. DearMike clearly has not understood the debate that has taken place in the UN nor has not read 1244 - the fact that he came up with a psudeonym based on your name reflects his inability to counter the argument put forth so succinctly.

Mike,
one does wonder where the US - what was once the beacon of freedom and democracy - is actualy heading with current foreign policy? What it had attempted to impose was exactly what you put forth and if they had succeeded what would have they created - a 'mafiocracy' perhaps?

I'm always appreciative of counterarguments, but if you're going to take the time to reply and take up cyperspace with your comments, at least have the respect to say something tangible: "

Serbia is not democratic because it did not even include the Albanian citizens of Kosova on their list of voters in their last elections, or even in their referendum for the constitution. Whether they vote or not is not the question but was Serbia, in fact, publicly claiming to the world that they STILL have no respect for 'their' Kosova Albanian citizens by denying them at least the chance to vote in their "Serbia wide" elections.


There is just ONE sample of Serbian chauvinistic oppression of the NON serb voter. It should be ashamed to claim Kosova when it did not even recognize the the citizens in their right to vote in your ethnically biased elections. Shame on serbia. You see how serious the int'l commmunity takes Serbia's claims to Kosova when it still shows up as the same old Albanian hating policies of that butcher milosevic and his thugs.

Mike the people that you mention have no evidence that can be verified and by not providing a counter argument they are able to avoid dealing with issues. When they do provide some evidence they expose themselves to scrutiny and what they precise as the truth they quickly find that their truth is proportional to how deeply they believe the lie. The amount of lies told about the breakup of Yugoslavia is so immense that any one of us who provide evidence to the contrary is seen as Serb nationalists. Perception in the public mind created by NATO sees anyone opposing their agenda or advocating fundamental solutions to American hegemony is a terrorists, extremists, fear mongers, outsiders, or communist. For example what the American government considers as a socialist in Canada we would consider conservative.

One of the problems with this issue that has not been discussed is that, to my knowledge, this is the first time territory is being considered to be taken away from a democratic country. To be sure, territory has been siphened off in the past - Germany, Pakistan, Indonesia, Turkey - but in almost every case, territory was carved up immediately after a war or conflict, and the state under question was a defeated authoritarian state. In Serbia, Milosevic is gone and Serbia is now becoming part of the European concert of nations again. That Kosovo is still in question and that Serbia's response to defend her national interests are through legal and diplomatic means, not military, means that those in favor of granting Kosovo's independence have to push it in ways much different than past situations. Not only that, there needs to be assurances that pushing Kosovo away from Serbia will not destabilize democracy in Belgrade, or the region. As a democracy that is trying to follow international law and not the way of the gun, Serbia needs to be given greater leverage at the negotiating table that its interests in Kosovo will be preserved, and greater assurances that its communities in Kosovo will be protected to the maximum extent - even to the degree of offering K Serbs dual citizenship with Serbia, and granting Serb police and soliders to guard and protect their own municipalities. Hopefully the new round of talks, in the hands of more pragmatic Europeans, will find a middle ground that Washington has unfortunately been too resistant to find.

To Mr.Ruecker: Yes, the clarity with status is needed - it should be autonomy for Kosovo-Metohja in the framework of Serbia as it has been once again fixed by the Serbian Parliament 24 July.

Mike I completly agree with much of your sentiment regarding the subject of what was in effect a failed attempt by the US and a 'few' European states to partition and dismember the democratic and UN recognised soverign state of Serbia and to legalise it via the UN.

The reality by law (de jure) and the fact (de facto) is that Serbia's province remains an intergral part of it's sovereignity just as it was prior to 10th June 1999- irrespective of what DearMike commentator suggests. DearMike clearly has not understood the debate that has taken place in the UN nor has not read 1244 - the fact that he came up with a psudeonym based on your name reflects his inability to counter the argument put forth so succinctly.

Mike,
one does wonder where the US - what was once the beacon of freedom and democracy - is actualy heading with current foreign policy? What it had attempted to impose was exactly what you put forth and if they had succeeded what would have they created - a 'mafiocracy' perhaps?

If some one committes murder they would have to be put in jail we kosovars done that what we doing now is the paper work MIKE. One more thing the only way you can get us Kosovars back under SERBIA is by going back to 1997( not 1913) yeah by bringing back all the loved one we lost if you do that then consider Kosova as part of YUGOSLLAVIA. Please B92 show this comment of mine as i think some people need a reminder of what happened never in million years wouldn't let my country roled by a serb anymore would do anything

dual citizenship for serbian,ok,it's not a problem for us
But serbian police in kosovo,certainly not! Serbs in kosovopolice ,ok,in mixed patrols.but no,excuse me we have as french says déja donné to serbian police units to allow them to come back!

Mike,
Serbia under Kostunica now a democratic country? They try to sell it as "democratic" but it is sadly only pseudo democratic.

"[...]to my knowledge, this is the first time territory is being considered to be taken away from a democratic country. "

dem·o·crat·ic

pertaining to or characterized by the principle of political or social equality for all: democratic treatment.


{Reply}
Look at all the times that the serbian government has tried to expel the Kosovar-Albanians in the history...kind of completely shatters this theory that it was "diplomatic" in any way doesn't it?

Kosova is independent according to international law (de jure) through resolution 1244 also de facto independent through PISG institutions for the last 8 years. It's only a matter of time until this Milosevic driven government of serbia wakes up and realises that Kosova isn't serbia's.
I'm sorry if you don't agree but people have started to see beyond the misleading propaganda

[from BBC]
"I support the idea of independence. Things have just been getting worse and worse for the past 8 years.

"Independence might bring a bit of stability. People say Kosovo is Serbian but if it really was, why are we living in this refugee camp?" says Ivan Milic, 24. "

Anyone agree?

Mike , on your first eight lines of oyur comments if you read it carefully waht you wrotte , you will find it that you are contradicting your own self. I hav eno further coments.

Mike talks here about pleasing the government in Serbia, but the issue is not to find a way to please Kostunica who in fact has even a picture holding a gun during the wars in X-Yugoslavia so therefore claims that Mike is making about the progress of democracy in Serbia are plain fake.
The problem here is about finding the best solution for Kosova and people living in Kosova not about pleasing the politicians in Belgrade while hurting the people of Kosova.
Ahtisaari, who dealt with these problems worldwide, gave the proposal that the only viable and best solution is an Independent Kosova and this will be the final outcome.
Everyone knows that there is no solution that both serbs and albanians could agree upon. Even Russia knows this but in this case it favors Russia to drag this problem on and on so by this way the europeans get tired and also that the Balkans can not develop right so the Russians then can easly influence in the decisions in Balkans.
But, whatever Russia thinks or tries to do, after all, Kosova will be Independent and there is no other way.

To everyone who felt the need to critique my comments:

I'm always appreciative of counterarguments, but if you're going to take the time to reply and take up cyperspace with your comments, at least have the respect to say something tangible:

Joe says Serbia is not a democracy without giving any evidence or supporting claims.

Ahmet thinks I'm contradicting myself but conveniently ends his reply right there without enlightening me.

Agim bases the fate of Serbia's democracy on the photo of Kostunica carrying a gun and then goes into a litany of how Kosovo will be independent one way or another, completely missing my points.

And finally, DearMike, whoever s/he is, applies the entirety of Serbian history - most of which was non-democratic - to rebuff my claim of Serbia today, post-2000 democratic.

Lili is the only one who said something intelligent. And Lilly, I'd say Serbs can patrol their own sectors, just as Albanians can patrol theirs, but all are under the executinve control of NATO who have overriding powers of authority.

Guys, please do better in counterarguing me. I don't mind the criticism and I almost appreciate the disagreements, but if you can't say anything substantial but feel the need to say SOMETHING, just shout at your monitor instead.

I'm always appreciative of counterarguments, but if you're going to take the time to reply and take up cyperspace with your comments, at least have the respect to say something tangible: "

Serbia is not democratic because it did not even include the Albanian citizens of Kosova on their list of voters in their last elections, or even in their referendum for the constitution. Whether they vote or not is not the question but was Serbia, in fact, publicly claiming to the world that they STILL have no respect for 'their' Kosova Albanian citizens by denying them at least the chance to vote in their "Serbia wide" elections.


There is just ONE sample of Serbian chauvinistic oppression of the NON serb voter. It should be ashamed to claim Kosova when it did not even recognize the the citizens in their right to vote in your ethnically biased elections. Shame on serbia. You see how serious the int'l commmunity takes Serbia's claims to Kosova when it still shows up as the same old Albanian hating policies of that butcher milosevic and his thugs.

Mike the people that you mention have no evidence that can be verified and by not providing a counter argument they are able to avoid dealing with issues. When they do provide some evidence they expose themselves to scrutiny and what they precise as the truth they quickly find that their truth is proportional to how deeply they believe the lie. The amount of lies told about the breakup of Yugoslavia is so immense that any one of us who provide evidence to the contrary is seen as Serb nationalists. Perception in the public mind created by NATO sees anyone opposing their agenda or advocating fundamental solutions to American hegemony is a terrorists, extremists, fear mongers, outsiders, or communist. For example what the American government considers as a socialist in Canada we would consider conservative.