UN debate over Kosovo draft vote

Lovely, consultations will have to continue until the resolution is voted. If Russia veto the latest UNSCS Resolution like they say then consultations continue in Contact Group where Russia has no power of veto. This scenario suites most K-Albanians politicians since most of C. Group support Independence of Kosova.
Independence would be the end result of any consultations, not because I want to say so but because it is of Kosova population will supported by the entire world – Russia.
Russia as well will recognise the Independence but at latter stage since it has no interest in blocking Kosova and nothing to gain from Serbia. Same goes for Serbia too, after the failed politicians leave or finish their mission( u never know who are they working for).

World recognises the need to put the wrong decisions made 95 years ago right. They are doing this because they want to find a long term solution. They are also returning the land to the people that lived and are living there. Unfortunately, most of K-Albanians had to buy their occupied lands(on 1913) from colons coming from Serbia. In facts Albanian lands were up to Nish(topographic names can tell ). Serbs owe so much to Albanians. In fact Serbs exist in Balkans due to Superpowers giving land to them and adjusting Int. Law to suit the situations. Now, time has come for some(not all of it) of the land to go back to the proper owners and to arrange the Int. laws according to situation. Anyhow, Serbs have lost nothing, they have gained land from Kosova border to Nish

It is America making promises that they have no right to make and refusing to start real talks which is slowing down this process.

If anyone takes a step back and asks if it is acceptible for the US to decide to carve up a country and just hand over part of it to an ethnic group who already have their own nation, I think that anyone in their right mind could see that this can't be allowed to happen.

Where would it lead? It would undermine the entire framework for territorial integrity and global security.

This is not because Bush cares so deeply about the Albanian people, it is about US interest and testing boundaries.

The occurences in 1999 have no bearing on any of this. That was settled by Resolution 1244.

You can put your trust on Russia!
I read that some people say that Russia is the only protector of the world peace: we notice it in Chechnya, in the Litvinenko case, in the recent attempt of killing Berezovsky, in the retreat from CFE Treaty and so on.
What surprises me more is that some "anti fascist leftist" (e.g. walter) cites Russia as a champion of international law only because they are against western democracies (USA and Europe).
Serbia, I fear that you are on the wrong side of the barricade.

Basically what we have here is the US pretending it is still 1999 and Yeltsin is still in power, and the Russians asserting themselves and defending justice and international law. They are on a collision course.
For Serbia and Russia, this is a win/win situation, whatever happens. If the US illegaly bypasses the UN and recognizes greater albania, they will unleash a chain reaction around the world of separatist movements declaring independence. The Serb part of Bosnia, Republika Srpska, would immediately declare independence and join Serbia. Northern Kosovo, the Mitrovica pocket, would remain with Serbia, and this is the pocket that holds all the mineral wealth. Russia will recognize Republika Srpska in retaliation for the US recognizing Kosovo. In addition, Russia would recognize its own minorities in the former Soviet Union who want to join her. So Russia and Serbia both have nothing to lose if the US goes ahead with unilateral moves.
If the US backs down, and decides to go through the UN for a change, then Kosovo will remain a part of Serbia and Russia will have won this diplomatic battle, staring down the US. The US has much to lose here, while Russia and Serbia are holding all the cards, and really have nothing to lose.
Ziveli!

Read the headlines on BBC: "US warns of Kosova plans failure", Mr. Khalilzaid was very blunt on his message to russia. russia has been cornered to choose the right from wrong, but somehow I think they will go the wrong way becaseu throughout their history they never went th right way. but so what. Only Kosova serbs will loose from this deal no one else.

If almost whole world is coming with an idea about Kosovo, you should ask yourself "what if we are wrong".
You are keeping up saying that somebody is trying to take a part of your land. What if that part of land is not yours in fact! It belonged to you for some time due to unfair meetings after WWII, but now seems to be world understood that they were wrong!
I'm beginning to believe that Kate and Princip are working for B92.

" resolution had "zero" chance of being adopted. "
Basicly if the Serbs are not happy with any final resolution then the Russians will veto it, simple as that.
So I advice the Albanians to consider their rather head strong aproach to independance to be recalculated, the only winner in that sort of situation is the US because they will recognise you are say: we gave what we promised, we cant make everyone do it.
So you will end up with a country in limbo where unrest continues, all due to the US and it's promises and uneven aproach to politics in Kosovo.

At the end of the day, none of this is fair for Serbs because all they have seen is themselves being kicked out their homes and a country being made out of nothing.

I do beg posters such as Olf not to talk about 1913 and things such as Kosova has always been Albanian because its only after WW2 and a huge birth rate that the demographics changed. Where is the great settlement of dardania, show me the evidense. Even so it's like Iran deciding it wants it's persia back again.
There is no link whatsoever between dardania and Kosovo. However there certainly is one between Albanian expansionism, attempted Serbophobia and the killing of Serbs.

People like Olf should stop trivialising the situations and wake up and smell the coffee, Albanians are not compramising and are on the offencive since day one. Serbs have lived and breathed Kosovo since the day they were born, a living history cannot be replaced.

im so sick and tired of US rhetoric....if they cant get what they want in the UN then they will do what the hell they like outside it's jurisdiction

Blatant law breaking

Kate,

very few countries in UNSC actually support russia's stance. this is because they see that kosovo independence is the only way forward. If anything countries do not approve any action without UNSC approval. But this is not the same as not wanting kosovo independence.

u complain about what US does but if anything, the fact that any countries have a veto is unjust and unfair. the fact that one country is holding the rest hostage is cynical at best.

Had serbia not try to do what it did in 90's then carving up any country would not be an issue. Instead of pointing fingers at others blaming them for serbias problems, i think serbs need to look at how much they contributed to the problem. Otherwise US nor russia nor anyone else would be involved.

"Read the headlines on BBC: "US warns of Kosova plans failure", Mr. Khalilzaid was very blunt on his message to russia. russia has been cornered to choose the right from wrong, but somehow I think they will go the wrong way becaseu throughout their history they never went th right way. but so what. Only Kosova serbs will loose from this deal no one else.
(Ahmet Isufi, 19. July 2007 10:26)"

You are wrong. It is the US who is cornered and not Russia. The US cornered itself when it made a promise (of UN recognized independence) which it obviously can't keep now. And it is afraid Albanian frustration will erupt into violence in Kosovo. And no prizes for correctly guessing who has to confront this potential violence .... let me give you a clue just in case .... not the Russians.

Oh, by the way, the BBC report was headlined "US warns of KosovO plan failure" ..... note the spelling of KosovO.

My conclusion? -- the US is obviously worried ..... about its credibility ..... about saving its own skin in Kosovo.

I don't think the K-Serbs are that worried. They would have been worried had the UNSC supported the earlier draft resolutions. They will just congregate in the north and declare their allegience to Belgrade.

Vuk

I like your name
denial of facts recognised from the entire planet brought Serbia to this situation.
I will not waste my time explaining the basic history.
Vuk, Milosheviq era is gone, wake up. Time to carve Albanian lands is over. Let us agree and share whatever we have left. Time is passing, it is not waiting for us. Milosheviq,Tzars era is finished mate.

Many of posters here underestimate US, Great Britain, France. If one of them had been on the side of Russia, the situation would have been different, but as it is nothing will stop the Independence of Kosova.

the thing is status quo can not continue...let's agree to that first...anybody sane still thinks albanians will live under the serbs again? russia is playing its one game but things have to move forward...kosova/o needs supervision so why wait? within UN or outside just get it done...my 2 cents
peace and love

Ahmet, were you the one who was constantly repeating "mark my words:Russia will never use veto"??:-)What happened with that?

Ahmet's "mark my words-Russia will never use veto!" is i think joke of the century!I am marking your words now Ahmet

Bob,
You suggest nicely that USA/EU should keep the old scenario des nineties, when the Albanians were treated as 3rd class citizens and worse. Time changed too much since than. Oppression/terror can not come back!

Kate: "The occurences in 1999 have no bearing on any of this. That was settled by Resolution 1244."

I remember very well that you called "what happened in 1999" Serbia "misbehaving"... given that attitude, everything else you write shows what a european you are and what a disinterested party you are in this discussion.

Lowe, very good of you to spot the way BBC spells KosovO... Can you tell us how BBC spells "and Metohija"? I went to the site and could not find it...

I read coments about resolution 1244 protects serbia's soverinity is not true,1244 protects soverinity of yugoslavia and I don't see that it exist anymore (yugoslavia).Serbia was triked with that.

Taking the sham negotiations from the United Nations to the shamelessly biased Contact Group is only a move to calm down the Albanian separatists. The Contact Group has no legislative powers.

The three options remain the same:
1) A deal is negotiated between the Serbian government and the separatists. New UN resolution passes.
2) Albanian separatists unilaterally declare a new state on the 12% of Serbia that they occupy. NATO Pact recognizes them. The UN legally can't.
3) NATO Pact gives the wink to the Albanian separatists to start another armed confronatation. Serbia is again blamed by the separatists BBC/CNN mouthpiece but gets sympathy for her position from non-NATO Pact countries. Russia's response is unknown, we are not in the 1990s anymore.

After yesterdays bombastic statements from Burns and Khalizad it would appear that Washington (and therefore the servile EU) has moved closer towards option 2.

"Lowe, very good of you to spot the way BBC spells KosovO... Can you tell us how BBC spells "and Metohija"? I went to the site and could not find it...
(hasan, 19. July 2007 14:04) "

Its very simple, but let me tell you anyway.

Kosovo is the standard international name for Kosovo and Metohija. Just as Timor is for Timor-Leste and your good friend is USA instead of the long winded The United States of America. You get the picture?

Vuk,

Memories of barbary and oppression cannot be replaced either. That is what all Serbs try to accomplish in vain lately. You are trying the impossible.

Personally, I am still looking forward to the shuttle diplomacy.

I think a bit of listening, discussing, and adapting to the interests of both sides is far preferable to an imposed solution.

This should stop being a NATO conquest or even a humantiarian intervention - all sides should be allowed to behave in a cooperative way showing respect for the interests of the others.

The future should be about diplomacy within the Balkans, not about imposition from outside.

The international community could put its strength behind the parties to make negotiation work. Given the views of both sides, autonomy under international guarantee should be fully explored.

This should not be treated as an East-West, US-Russia confrontation. The local interests of the Balkans should not have to suffer because of that. The US government should give a bit more space to the exploration of possibilities.

The EU should take a lead and stop seeing this as a problem that requires a heavy hand and instead lead both sides towards a positive diplomatic road-map for the future - one that gives impetus to establish trust and good relations.

business as usual, at least for the last 2 or 3 years.

winter passes & the western apperatchiks can´t keep their mouth shuted as in the cold months.

someone should explain to this bunch of geniuses, that their industry is dependent on russian gas not just in winter, but 7 day a week & 12 months a year.

"The occurences in 1999 have no bearing on any of this. That was settled by Resolution 1244."

Kate, I think you need to explain this. It just might make me understand what your line of thought is, since apart from daily remarks of "upholding the international law" and "the nerve the US has in meddling with this", I can't really understand what you are really trying to say and why.

Vega - I am not talking about alleged moral, historical or other claim to the land, I am talking about where it legally stands today. And no, I am not working for B92.

BlueJ - "Kate, I think you need to explain this."

Actually, I don't because it is very clear. What don't you understand?

If it helps, for your benefit, I was answering the regular point that because of events during and prior to 1999, Serbia has somehow lost her right to her own territory. I am merely stating that Resolution 1244 was agreed and signed by all, and protects Serbia's sovereignty.

Canadian I appreciate your posts and look forward to reading them but, Massimo wrote “ANTI FASCIST LEFTIST (e.g. WALTER). Thank you Massimo I wear that title with honor. But it is too bad that Massimo does not understand the difference between political right and left ideology and I will not go into its difference here, suffice to say leftists support progress, human rights regardless of gender, religion or color, economic and political democracy, rule of law and internationalism while fascists which Massimo protects by his statement about me are reactionary who believe in elitism, dictatorship, racism, nationalism, war, book burning followed by burning people. Canadian you are correct about B92 they have refused to print many of my posts and changed other ones. B92’s use of a disclaimer that they are not responsible for our posts is not correct since by censoring what we write the post become theirs not ours. I can substantiate everything that I write with evidence and I have never been vulgar or rude. At times I may have applied a comment to one person that might have been interpreted as applying to the whole people for that I apologize. I can understand B92 not publishing offensive material and name calling but their choice of articles that they publish indicates their bias. I occasionally go to a right wing website the DRUDGE REPORT and the only Serbian news outlet on this site is B92. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

It looks like you are full time employed by somebody to write on B92.

Dear B92

You edit and even refuse to post some pro-Serb and Russian comments yet you allow the following comment >

"fascist leftist" (e.g. walter) cites Russia as a champion of international law only because they are against western democracies (USA and Europe).
Serbia, I fear that you are on the wrong side of the barricade.
(massimo, 19. July 2007 14:59)

I am appalled by your mediating, this man massimo just called someone who does not agree with him a fascist leftist"
This is rude and provided no constructive argument on this board and indicates truly the lack of education some e who post here. There is no independence for them today and shall be no independence tomorrow, next week, next month or next year, but as long as America keeps making promises they cannot keep these Albanians will keep going and going without a moments thought about what the reality is.

I can sense a New Cold War!
Big Powers are bored with Afghanistan,Iraq,Kosova/o.
They want something more exciting!
Now the latest"victim",Kosova/o is used by both big Powers to see who is the strongest!
What a shame.
Promises coming from one side,the use of veto on the other and where this is leading us:"The world is gone mad"!!!
Miss.C.Rice thank you for your support.
Kosovan Albanians will be always greatful to your country,but if you really mean it I think it is time to do something about it.
Kosovan People have suffered enough,on both sides.
In the beggining of talks nobody was for partition,at the moment I think Partition is the best option.It will be very hard for citizens on "wrong" sides but we all know that at the moment there is no a guarenteed life between Kosovan Albanians and Kosovan Serbs.So lets share the cake and live happily after.
One thing the West is doing wrong is that they are forgetting that Russia is not their partner,an ally,it was and always will be their biggest Enemy!
For that I am surprise why they are trying to negotiate with them!!!
Cheerio!

why is everyone adamantly opposed to partition? Taking recent history into account, one can deduce from what happened in Bosnia, that in the Balkans, should Kosovo be granted independence Serbs will not be protected (especially given that the current Kosovo administration committed crimes against the same. In addition, Serbs' sacred monasteries continue to be desecrated, thereby depriving the world of substantial history and by example denying any guarantees for future protection. Same on the other hand, just like Serbs will not subdue to Albanian government neither will Albanians to that in belgrade (even if only formally). It comes to my understanding that the controversy of partition arises from distant serbian enclaves, but one should acknowledge gerrymandering as a reasonable option in that scenario. Arrogance on behalf of Cheku, Kostunica etc. with regards to partition is not needed if the world truly wants to see a viable solution and not another civil war in the Balkans.

"I can't really understand what you are really trying to say and why"

Not all people understand everything. I remind you the saying "beware of greeks bearing gifts".
(that last one is even harder to understand).

Hasan: "I remember very well that you called "what happened in 1999" Serbia "misbehaving"... given that attitude, everything else you write shows what a european you are and what a disinterested party you are in this discussion."

Hasan, my friend, don't make things up. I never said that at any point in any discussion ever. Can't you come up with some more constructive argument than that? You have to stoop to fabrication.

Rice said that "the U.S. was committed to an independent Kosovo and would get there one way or another."

There isn't a single US politican willing to say anything, irregardless of how poorly articulated as demonstrated by Bush, Rice, Fried, etc., on the topic of Kosovo independance over the American news media. Why?

Kate, I'm not fabricating. You just made me search the archive... Unfortunately, I only found one 'Tom Wassberg' (hope it's not on of your aliases) saying that. I'll continue searching when I have more time because I know I've seen it mentioned several times. here is his posting below:
I think that EU integration is the key to why this time around, little Serbia will be protected by international law. Let's say that there is unilateral independence, and it is recognized by the US and major European countries. Kosovo applies for membership in the EU. There will then be the spectacle of two entities applying for membership, one believing the other to be inside itself. Obviously, this has to be resolved by a court. What are Serbia's borders? Serbia will say: "We're a peaceful democratic country. In 2007, everyone agreed that Kosovo was inside Serbia. A binding UNSC resolution, signed by all major powers, confirms this. The UN Charter and the Helsinki Final Act, which all EU member states have signed, agree that there can be no violent border revisions". Kosovo will say: We're independent, because the US president, who is the most powerful man on earth, has declared us so, and because Milosevic misbehaved in the 1990s."

Which arguments will prevail in an international court? Imagine the time bomb going off, when a court decides that Kosovo is part of Serbia?

So EU jurists have told the Americans that a UNSC resolution is a strict necessity for recognition. The "international community" have put themselves in a terrible bind, and they know it. Wait for them to sue for peace. Wait for 'Ahtisaari lite' - Kosovo a EU protectorate within Serbia - to be adopted in September.

This is also the 'fast track' solution for Kosovo to enter the EU, and therefore also the best one, since once inside the EU, Serbs and Albanians can live together in a spirit of brotherhood and unity.
(Tom Wassberg, 16 June 2007, 19:11)

Actually Olf the Milosovic era probably wasnt that great but it did represent a great struggle of Serbs against western influence where Milosovic defied the great powers which is in fact the one and only reason the clinton administration decided to support the KLA.

The Milosovic era is finshed, not much of an era frankly but your right times are moving on and unfortunatly your average Serb who probably never supported Milosovic's brutal aproach to protecting Serbs in Kosovo from sepratists have bore the consequences.

Serbia does no deserve to have 15% of it's territory taken from it aggressivly by a nation whos WW2 attempts to create an "ethnic Albania" have been prosperous in Serbia and Macedonia. Incedently that same nation of Albania has yet to apologise for those crimes.

So if your a realist like me and you can compare the relative damage Olaf to Serbs in Kosovo compared to Albanians anyone can see the Serbs have been much more the victims, and no this is not propoganda try checking how many HAVENT been run from their homes by angry Albanians; not very many...and this is the foundation for a country?

Dragan,
So you see how lucky you are. Russia determines the events of the world and she is your great protector. So nothing wrong can happen to you.

Joe,
I feel very lucky to have a great nation such as Russia as an ally. I realize that you are hungarian and despise the Russians, but they are our ethnic brethren.

The Serbs in Kosovo should all move to the north immediately to protect themselves from being massacred by the Islamists once independence is not recognized by the UNSC but is recognized by the US.NATO should form a Maginot Line between the Serbs in the north and the rest of Kosovo.It has become obvious that there is no legal way to revoke the deed of ownership to the land that was acquired by Serbia in 1912 before Yugoslavia even existed and the drawing of pseudo political borders/lines by the Communists in order to dilute Serbia's size.However,the US is going to go ahead and recognize Kosovo anyway and then all hell will break loose.The EU works great as an economic/free trade zone but is impotent in solving political problems without asking for US interference in Europen affairs.It is ironic that the US is a country with 50 states and only 300 million people while the EU has 27 states but 500 million people and an economy richer than the US so why does the EU need the spoiled child of Europe(USA)to solve European issues?

Ahmet
"mark my words, Russia will never use its VETO", I marked them as well. Shows how much weight ur posts carry.

Ahmet's "mark my words-Russia will never use veto!"

Ahmet I too have marked your words! Are there any other words you would like us to mark?

Joe,

The FACT is today "July 19" there is no independence! Soon it will be December 19 and still no independence, so I ask you who is in charge, the Americans or the Russians, the current status of Kosovo tells us who is in charge, everything else is just pipe-dreams my friend.

"This is an issue of rule of law to our minds, not an issue of politics," Rice said at a news conference in Portugal. This is the US Secretary of State citing "Rule of Law", concerning the Litvinenko matter. But "Rule of Law" does not apply to Kosovo? Hypocrit!
Since 1984, the number of Vetos used by UNSC permanent members has been: China, two; France, three; Russia/USSR, four; the United Kingdom, 10; and the United States, 43. It is clear who the obstructionists are.

If the US goes around the UN again, then just do away with this world body comletely. It will then be a lot quicker for America to impose it's will on the rest of the world.

So many of you speak of Britain as some sort of example of Justice and at one time it was until they wanted to reestablish their empire by being America’s butler and holding her coat. The traditions of the British legal system date back to the Code of Hammurabi, Justinian, Magna Carta, and Code Napoleon. The British Legal system is the standard by which legal systems of other nations are measured. Since Margaret Thatcher’s tenure as Prime Minister this tradition has been tarnished due to British double standard in international relations. British government violates treaties by invading sovereign nations and uses tribunals to subvert the rule of law, due process and independence of the judiciary. The Alexander Litvinenko .case is an example of this double standard. Both Britain and Russia are signatories of the European Extradition Treaty. Britain requested that Russia extradite Andrei Lugovoi who they claim is implicated in the death of Litvinenko and that well may be so but when Russia requested that Britain extradite the fraudster and embezzler Boris Berezovsky, and terrorist Akhmed Zakayev, the exiled Chechen leader Britain turned a blind eye to this request. Welcome to international Law British style. For years they fought the terrorist IRA and killed them wherever they could find them, While Britain kills Muslim Terrorists in their midst they reportedly trained the KLA terrorists to kill Serbs and Albanians in Serbia and now to add insult to injury they violate international law by supporting redrawing of borders in Europe.

RE: Naroknnh Karabake

Karabakh Republic (Reuters) -- Voting for a new leader started in the breakaway region of Nagorno-Karabakh on Thursday in an election intended to stress the Armenian-populated region's self-proclaimed independence from Azerbaijan.


Armenia's current president Robert Kocharyan is a former leader of Nagorno-Karabakh.

The head of the region's election commission Sergey Nasibyan hailed the election campaign as democratic and said local and foreign observers were monitoring the polls, Armenian television reported.

Muslim Azerbaijan, which lost control of Nagorno-Karabakh after a war in the early 1990s, has already denounced the election as illegal under international law.

At least 25 percent of the enclave's 91,000 voters have to take part for the 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. (0300 to 1500 GMT) election to be considered valid by Karabakh authorities. Anyone taking over 50 percent of the votes in the first round wins outright.

Karabakh seceded from Azerbaijan in the 1990s and proclaimed independence, though this has not been recognized by the rest of the world.

No international organizations will monitor the vote, in which five hopefuls are running to replace Karabakh's current leader Arkady Gukasyan, who is due to step down after holding the post for two five-year terms.

Bako Saakyan, a 46-year-old former head of Karabakh's security service who is openly supported by the incumbent, is the favorite to win. His main rival is the region's deputy foreign minister Masis Mailyan, aged 39.

Many of the Azeri minority fled during the fighting, which claimed more than 35,000 lives before a cease-fire was brokered in 1994, and the region is now populated almost entirely by ethnic Armenians, who enjoy Christian Armenia's backing.

Armenia's current president Robert Kocharyan is a former leader of Nagorno-Karabakh.

"The authorities have declared their support for Saakyan. This means it is namely him who will become the next president," said a taxi driver in the Karabakh capital, Stepanakert.

Both leading contenders are adamant on the main issue -- full independence for Karabakh.

Saakyan says he wants to make the sliver of land and its 140,000 people "an example of democratic rule" to persuade the international community to recognize Karabakh's independence.

"Creating civil society is the way towards resolving the Nagorno-Karabakh issue," he has said during his campaign.

The Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe has been trying to broker a peace deal between Azerbaijan and Armenia since the 1994 cease-fire.

Mailyan said he hopes that eventual international recognition of Serbia's rebel province of Kosovo, populated mainly by ethnic Albanians, will create an important precedent leading to officially accepted independence for Karabakh.

"The Kosovo precedent, if it occurs and if international recognition finally takes place, is of interest to me because an unrecognized state will thus become recognized, irrespective of what its mother country has to say," Mailyan told Reuters.

"This means we have a chance to become independent -- according to a new scenario."

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has already said he does not consider Kosovo a precedent for Nagorno-Karabakh. E-mail to a friend


The US and EU could not picked a better time to try and dismember Kosovo & Metohija from Serbia. UN Chief Ban Ki Moon is kidding himself if and independant Kosovo would not and does not set a precedent.

Compare the Kosovo issue to the Palestine issue in the UNSC.The whole international community(so called democratic and non-democratic states)pass a resolution calling on Israel to do this or that BUT the US is the only country that vetoes it.The US has used its veto more times than all the other 4 permanent members put together(if my memory serves me correctly).Is this democratic?It may very well be more democratic to abolish the veto so no ONE country can prevent a measure/resoultion from going forward but I guarantee you that the most democratic country in the world(UNITED STATES OF AMERICA) would VETO that from happening.How ironic indeed.It is time to stop the hypocrisy about one issue being unique or more important than any other issue only when it suits your view and the legalist Europeans should be smart enough to realize what is important for the long term stability of Europe.Resolution 1244 stands so start implementing it!

To all the "pro-Serb" commentators -
We all know what the truth is - KosovO is Serbia & that's AMEN!

CCCC

Here we go again! "one way or another", our way or no way, if I don't get what I want then I'll huff & puff and blow your house down. The arrogant, powerful, spoiled child of the world, better known as the USA. Someone should ask the question; is the US really serious about "the war on terror" when we are hell bent on creating another breeding ground for terrorists in the heart of Europe? We are "fighting terror" and at the same time perpetuating, aiding and appeasing the KLA. Who really poses the largest threat to world stability? Absolute power corrupts absolutely, finally some countries (Russia, china, Serbia and many more) are starting to see that a mono superpower is clearly the greatest threat. They are forming (out of necessity) counter power blocks that "one way or another" will end this threat to humanity!

Ahmet,after your famous quote of the century i would be ashamed to ever again post something on this site if i were you!
P.S. Duma president Grizlov said today Russia will use veto...

What is option number 2? Give up Georgia? Give up Moldova? Azerbaijan? Serbia will be nationalistic as well as RS and Bosnia as a whole? No nation around Kosovo said they support it if it goes unilateral aside from albania.

Dragan,

If US recognizes Kosova as it is, with current borders, Serbia will need a miracle to anex North. You don't suppose Serbia would fight US, do you? That would be a catastrophy for Serbia. I strongly suggest moderate Serbs to endorse a land swap proposal before Kosova is recognized by US and EU.

North Kosova minus Trepcha for Presheva, Bujanoc, and few villages of Medwedja.

I guess the way the law works is having a major overhaul, We are learning the hard way why the UN is not as great as it should have been, We are also learning how Russia its not really what it portrays it is, Whe are learning also that the West has found their ground in one key point,
Now the problem is Serbia, with the territory in Europe and the spirit in Russia. With the problems in Belgrade and with its dreams in Kosovo.
As for Kosovo, it is the place that belongs to Europe, the people are looking towards the democracy that has been build, than the oppression that has been ruled.
Anyway i hear the cry's of your woman why the man don't go to yet another war and the pensioners why their sons are not willing to pick up arms. I urge not to listen to that, those people are going on about memory not common sense.

I see a lot of Albanians here advocating Kosovo's independence, but they should be careful what they wish for because they might get it.

An independent Kosovo will be recognized by some countries (the U.S. and half of the EU) and not by others (Russia, China and the other half of the EU).

Kosovo won't be able to join the UN or international organizations. It will have an isolated status and its economy won't be able to function.

A Kosovo with a disputed status isn't in anyone's best interest.

The best solution is for Kosovo to have the same autonomus status in Serbia that Hong Kong has in China.

I know some will say "we tried autonomy before and it didn't work". But it really hasn't been done in Kosovo before.

Kosovo never had autonomy in anything but name. The SFRY was a single party state where every decision was made by the League of Communists, which explains why the deputies in the Kosovo assembly voted to forfeit Kosovo's "autonomy" in 1989 -- it the will of the Communist party.

What I am proposing is an autonomus Kosovo with a democratic multi-party system. That is something that has never been done before.

Kosovo's autonomy should be enshrined in the Serbian constitution with a provision stating that the Constitution can not be ammended unless a 2/3rds majority in the Kosovo and Vojovodina Assemblies vote to ratify the amendments.

I really don't see a viable solution other than an autonomus Kosovo within Serbia.

An independent Kosovo will be a failed state. The economy won't function and it will be a heaven for organized crime and corruption. I can't see how that is in the best interests of the average Kosovo-Albanian or anybody else.

"because they will recognise you are say: we gave what we promised, we cant make everyone do it. "

That still beats than living under Serbia. How many times do Albanians have to tell you, that anything else beats living under Serbia or having any connection with Serbia. While not an ideal solution even if the US is the only party that recognizes it, its still better than what Serbia has to offer.

This is alarming politics and unbelievable niavety.
Stealing Serbian land, Serbian sovereign territory.
Americans promising without legal right.
Americans have occupied but have no legal right to steal Serbian sovereign territory and hand it to an ethnic
Albanian minority.
In line with the Serbian constitution, no Serb, will accept an independent Kosovo and Metohija.
The solution is for Belgrade and Pristina to work through acceptable autonomy and international community should be encouraging this course.
In the long run it will be the US blamed for making a dangerous situation more dangerous.

Let’s have a look at the question of implementation. Which scenario is the least destructive to implement?

Is it far less destructive to give Kosova to Serbia or to give Kosova its independence from Serbia?

Let’s now have a look at the situation on the ground today. Independence from Serbia is essentially what Kosova has now. With or without UN approval things will essentially stay the same on the ground. We can safely say that Kosova will keep this status quo that is independence from Serbia for a little while longer. Therefore for the average observer it is less destructive to give Kosova what it already has. If Serbia wishes to alter the status quo it will then need to comprehend this particular word “destructive”. What would it cost and how much it would need to sacrifice. If Serbia wants Kosova under it’s sovereignty it will have to go and get it. Kosova will not be handed back to Serbia without the will of the majority in Kosova.

Kate, thank you, now I understand what you are saying, but it still escapes me why you are saying it.

Unlike many other posters, you are obviously not emotionally connected to the issue, and are something of a "impartial observer". However, in my opinion, taking that too far and treating the issue like it was happening in a void, is not very helpful. The region the issue has a rich and complex history, which has to be taken into account and which makes it unique. We are not talking about "a country", "a part of a country" and "a minority", we are talking about Serbia, Kosovo and Kosovo Albanians.

Hasan - you are accusing me of having aliases AND saying something I never said? You are actually quoting someone completely different in a bid to prove something that I never have, and never would have, said?
Get a grip!

Lowe, very good explanation. I get the picture. It's like Serbia van Pokrajina being called simply SErbia internationally. Thanks for the explanation

We had in 1988.the same "out of UN" solution, which lead to the disaster. USA offers more disasters.

Joe

My suggestions are peaceful and imply a total move away from the terrors of the past.

Democratic forces must work within the contraints of human rights. The politicians that govern must not be ethnically motivated - that applies to both sides. The EU model of cooperation and dialogue is the one that needs to be followed.

Joe

My suggestions are peaceful and imply a total move away from the terrors of the past.

Democratic forces must work within the contraints of human rights. The politicians that govern must not be ethnically motivated - that applies to both sides. The EU model of cooperation and dialogue is the one that needs to be followed.

Rice said that "the U.S. was committed to an independent Kosovo and would get there one way or another."

This is like saying: "my way or highway".

Let's all leave a history asied and let's start thinkink like:... Nobody is asking what you were or where you were, but insted is asking what are you and where you are right now......-- and the reality is... Who control Kosovo right now... Where do the taxes go, who colect them? Serbia? I don't think so!

I can't wait to be in Kosovo for Christmas and celebrate independence with home made RAKIJA made by my serbian komsija (they are going to celebrate it too, it's their country too)lol.

Since when has the UN or the SC been relevant? If that's a requirement we are all in trouble.

It is America making promises that they have no right to make and refusing to start real talks which is slowing down this process.

If anyone takes a step back and asks if it is acceptible for the US to decide to carve up a country and just hand over part of it to an ethnic group who already have their own nation, I think that anyone in their right mind could see that this can't be allowed to happen.

Where would it lead? It would undermine the entire framework for territorial integrity and global security.

This is not because Bush cares so deeply about the Albanian people, it is about US interest and testing boundaries.

The occurences in 1999 have no bearing on any of this. That was settled by Resolution 1244.

Lovely, consultations will have to continue until the resolution is voted. If Russia veto the latest UNSCS Resolution like they say then consultations continue in Contact Group where Russia has no power of veto. This scenario suites most K-Albanians politicians since most of C. Group support Independence of Kosova.
Independence would be the end result of any consultations, not because I want to say so but because it is of Kosova population will supported by the entire world – Russia.
Russia as well will recognise the Independence but at latter stage since it has no interest in blocking Kosova and nothing to gain from Serbia. Same goes for Serbia too, after the failed politicians leave or finish their mission( u never know who are they working for).

World recognises the need to put the wrong decisions made 95 years ago right. They are doing this because they want to find a long term solution. They are also returning the land to the people that lived and are living there. Unfortunately, most of K-Albanians had to buy their occupied lands(on 1913) from colons coming from Serbia. In facts Albanian lands were up to Nish(topographic names can tell ). Serbs owe so much to Albanians. In fact Serbs exist in Balkans due to Superpowers giving land to them and adjusting Int. Law to suit the situations. Now, time has come for some(not all of it) of the land to go back to the proper owners and to arrange the Int. laws according to situation. Anyhow, Serbs have lost nothing, they have gained land from Kosova border to Nish

Read the headlines on BBC: "US warns of Kosova plans failure", Mr. Khalilzaid was very blunt on his message to russia. russia has been cornered to choose the right from wrong, but somehow I think they will go the wrong way becaseu throughout their history they never went th right way. but so what. Only Kosova serbs will loose from this deal no one else.

"Lowe, very good of you to spot the way BBC spells KosovO... Can you tell us how BBC spells "and Metohija"? I went to the site and could not find it...
(hasan, 19. July 2007 14:04) "

Its very simple, but let me tell you anyway.

Kosovo is the standard international name for Kosovo and Metohija. Just as Timor is for Timor-Leste and your good friend is USA instead of the long winded The United States of America. You get the picture?

" resolution had "zero" chance of being adopted. "
Basicly if the Serbs are not happy with any final resolution then the Russians will veto it, simple as that.
So I advice the Albanians to consider their rather head strong aproach to independance to be recalculated, the only winner in that sort of situation is the US because they will recognise you are say: we gave what we promised, we cant make everyone do it.
So you will end up with a country in limbo where unrest continues, all due to the US and it's promises and uneven aproach to politics in Kosovo.

At the end of the day, none of this is fair for Serbs because all they have seen is themselves being kicked out their homes and a country being made out of nothing.

I do beg posters such as Olf not to talk about 1913 and things such as Kosova has always been Albanian because its only after WW2 and a huge birth rate that the demographics changed. Where is the great settlement of dardania, show me the evidense. Even so it's like Iran deciding it wants it's persia back again.
There is no link whatsoever between dardania and Kosovo. However there certainly is one between Albanian expansionism, attempted Serbophobia and the killing of Serbs.

People like Olf should stop trivialising the situations and wake up and smell the coffee, Albanians are not compramising and are on the offencive since day one. Serbs have lived and breathed Kosovo since the day they were born, a living history cannot be replaced.

I read coments about resolution 1244 protects serbia's soverinity is not true,1244 protects soverinity of yugoslavia and I don't see that it exist anymore (yugoslavia).Serbia was triked with that.

Taking the sham negotiations from the United Nations to the shamelessly biased Contact Group is only a move to calm down the Albanian separatists. The Contact Group has no legislative powers.

The three options remain the same:
1) A deal is negotiated between the Serbian government and the separatists. New UN resolution passes.
2) Albanian separatists unilaterally declare a new state on the 12% of Serbia that they occupy. NATO Pact recognizes them. The UN legally can't.
3) NATO Pact gives the wink to the Albanian separatists to start another armed confronatation. Serbia is again blamed by the separatists BBC/CNN mouthpiece but gets sympathy for her position from non-NATO Pact countries. Russia's response is unknown, we are not in the 1990s anymore.

After yesterdays bombastic statements from Burns and Khalizad it would appear that Washington (and therefore the servile EU) has moved closer towards option 2.

Ahmet, were you the one who was constantly repeating "mark my words:Russia will never use veto"??:-)What happened with that?

im so sick and tired of US rhetoric....if they cant get what they want in the UN then they will do what the hell they like outside it's jurisdiction

Blatant law breaking

Kate,

very few countries in UNSC actually support russia's stance. this is because they see that kosovo independence is the only way forward. If anything countries do not approve any action without UNSC approval. But this is not the same as not wanting kosovo independence.

u complain about what US does but if anything, the fact that any countries have a veto is unjust and unfair. the fact that one country is holding the rest hostage is cynical at best.

Had serbia not try to do what it did in 90's then carving up any country would not be an issue. Instead of pointing fingers at others blaming them for serbias problems, i think serbs need to look at how much they contributed to the problem. Otherwise US nor russia nor anyone else would be involved.

"I can't really understand what you are really trying to say and why"

Not all people understand everything. I remind you the saying "beware of greeks bearing gifts".
(that last one is even harder to understand).

Ahmet's "mark my words-Russia will never use veto!" is i think joke of the century!I am marking your words now Ahmet

Bob,
You suggest nicely that USA/EU should keep the old scenario des nineties, when the Albanians were treated as 3rd class citizens and worse. Time changed too much since than. Oppression/terror can not come back!

So many of you speak of Britain as some sort of example of Justice and at one time it was until they wanted to reestablish their empire by being America’s butler and holding her coat. The traditions of the British legal system date back to the Code of Hammurabi, Justinian, Magna Carta, and Code Napoleon. The British Legal system is the standard by which legal systems of other nations are measured. Since Margaret Thatcher’s tenure as Prime Minister this tradition has been tarnished due to British double standard in international relations. British government violates treaties by invading sovereign nations and uses tribunals to subvert the rule of law, due process and independence of the judiciary. The Alexander Litvinenko .case is an example of this double standard. Both Britain and Russia are signatories of the European Extradition Treaty. Britain requested that Russia extradite Andrei Lugovoi who they claim is implicated in the death of Litvinenko and that well may be so but when Russia requested that Britain extradite the fraudster and embezzler Boris Berezovsky, and terrorist Akhmed Zakayev, the exiled Chechen leader Britain turned a blind eye to this request. Welcome to international Law British style. For years they fought the terrorist IRA and killed them wherever they could find them, While Britain kills Muslim Terrorists in their midst they reportedly trained the KLA terrorists to kill Serbs and Albanians in Serbia and now to add insult to injury they violate international law by supporting redrawing of borders in Europe.

business as usual, at least for the last 2 or 3 years.

winter passes & the western apperatchiks can´t keep their mouth shuted as in the cold months.

someone should explain to this bunch of geniuses, that their industry is dependent on russian gas not just in winter, but 7 day a week & 12 months a year.

"Read the headlines on BBC: "US warns of Kosova plans failure", Mr. Khalilzaid was very blunt on his message to russia. russia has been cornered to choose the right from wrong, but somehow I think they will go the wrong way becaseu throughout their history they never went th right way. but so what. Only Kosova serbs will loose from this deal no one else.
(Ahmet Isufi, 19. July 2007 10:26)"

You are wrong. It is the US who is cornered and not Russia. The US cornered itself when it made a promise (of UN recognized independence) which it obviously can't keep now. And it is afraid Albanian frustration will erupt into violence in Kosovo. And no prizes for correctly guessing who has to confront this potential violence .... let me give you a clue just in case .... not the Russians.

Oh, by the way, the BBC report was headlined "US warns of KosovO plan failure" ..... note the spelling of KosovO.

My conclusion? -- the US is obviously worried ..... about its credibility ..... about saving its own skin in Kosovo.

I don't think the K-Serbs are that worried. They would have been worried had the UNSC supported the earlier draft resolutions. They will just congregate in the north and declare their allegience to Belgrade.

Vega - I am not talking about alleged moral, historical or other claim to the land, I am talking about where it legally stands today. And no, I am not working for B92.

BlueJ - "Kate, I think you need to explain this."

Actually, I don't because it is very clear. What don't you understand?

If it helps, for your benefit, I was answering the regular point that because of events during and prior to 1999, Serbia has somehow lost her right to her own territory. I am merely stating that Resolution 1244 was agreed and signed by all, and protects Serbia's sovereignty.

It looks like you are full time employed by somebody to write on B92.

Vuk

I like your name
denial of facts recognised from the entire planet brought Serbia to this situation.
I will not waste my time explaining the basic history.
Vuk, Milosheviq era is gone, wake up. Time to carve Albanian lands is over. Let us agree and share whatever we have left. Time is passing, it is not waiting for us. Milosheviq,Tzars era is finished mate.

Rice said that "the U.S. was committed to an independent Kosovo and would get there one way or another."

There isn't a single US politican willing to say anything, irregardless of how poorly articulated as demonstrated by Bush, Rice, Fried, etc., on the topic of Kosovo independance over the American news media. Why?

Basically what we have here is the US pretending it is still 1999 and Yeltsin is still in power, and the Russians asserting themselves and defending justice and international law. They are on a collision course.
For Serbia and Russia, this is a win/win situation, whatever happens. If the US illegaly bypasses the UN and recognizes greater albania, they will unleash a chain reaction around the world of separatist movements declaring independence. The Serb part of Bosnia, Republika Srpska, would immediately declare independence and join Serbia. Northern Kosovo, the Mitrovica pocket, would remain with Serbia, and this is the pocket that holds all the mineral wealth. Russia will recognize Republika Srpska in retaliation for the US recognizing Kosovo. In addition, Russia would recognize its own minorities in the former Soviet Union who want to join her. So Russia and Serbia both have nothing to lose if the US goes ahead with unilateral moves.
If the US backs down, and decides to go through the UN for a change, then Kosovo will remain a part of Serbia and Russia will have won this diplomatic battle, staring down the US. The US has much to lose here, while Russia and Serbia are holding all the cards, and really have nothing to lose.
Ziveli!

If almost whole world is coming with an idea about Kosovo, you should ask yourself "what if we are wrong".
You are keeping up saying that somebody is trying to take a part of your land. What if that part of land is not yours in fact! It belonged to you for some time due to unfair meetings after WWII, but now seems to be world understood that they were wrong!
I'm beginning to believe that Kate and Princip are working for B92.

"The occurences in 1999 have no bearing on any of this. That was settled by Resolution 1244."

Kate, I think you need to explain this. It just might make me understand what your line of thought is, since apart from daily remarks of "upholding the international law" and "the nerve the US has in meddling with this", I can't really understand what you are really trying to say and why.

Lowe, very good of you to spot the way BBC spells KosovO... Can you tell us how BBC spells "and Metohija"? I went to the site and could not find it...

Hasan: "I remember very well that you called "what happened in 1999" Serbia "misbehaving"... given that attitude, everything else you write shows what a european you are and what a disinterested party you are in this discussion."

Hasan, my friend, don't make things up. I never said that at any point in any discussion ever. Can't you come up with some more constructive argument than that? You have to stoop to fabrication.

You can put your trust on Russia!
I read that some people say that Russia is the only protector of the world peace: we notice it in Chechnya, in the Litvinenko case, in the recent attempt of killing Berezovsky, in the retreat from CFE Treaty and so on.
What surprises me more is that some "anti fascist leftist" (e.g. walter) cites Russia as a champion of international law only because they are against western democracies (USA and Europe).
Serbia, I fear that you are on the wrong side of the barricade.

Vuk,

Memories of barbary and oppression cannot be replaced either. That is what all Serbs try to accomplish in vain lately. You are trying the impossible.

Many of posters here underestimate US, Great Britain, France. If one of them had been on the side of Russia, the situation would have been different, but as it is nothing will stop the Independence of Kosova.

Kate, I'm not fabricating. You just made me search the archive... Unfortunately, I only found one 'Tom Wassberg' (hope it's not on of your aliases) saying that. I'll continue searching when I have more time because I know I've seen it mentioned several times. here is his posting below:
I think that EU integration is the key to why this time around, little Serbia will be protected by international law. Let's say that there is unilateral independence, and it is recognized by the US and major European countries. Kosovo applies for membership in the EU. There will then be the spectacle of two entities applying for membership, one believing the other to be inside itself. Obviously, this has to be resolved by a court. What are Serbia's borders? Serbia will say: "We're a peaceful democratic country. In 2007, everyone agreed that Kosovo was inside Serbia. A binding UNSC resolution, signed by all major powers, confirms this. The UN Charter and the Helsinki Final Act, which all EU member states have signed, agree that there can be no violent border revisions". Kosovo will say: We're independent, because the US president, who is the most powerful man on earth, has declared us so, and because Milosevic misbehaved in the 1990s."

Which arguments will prevail in an international court? Imagine the time bomb going off, when a court decides that Kosovo is part of Serbia?

So EU jurists have told the Americans that a UNSC resolution is a strict necessity for recognition. The "international community" have put themselves in a terrible bind, and they know it. Wait for them to sue for peace. Wait for 'Ahtisaari lite' - Kosovo a EU protectorate within Serbia - to be adopted in September.

This is also the 'fast track' solution for Kosovo to enter the EU, and therefore also the best one, since once inside the EU, Serbs and Albanians can live together in a spirit of brotherhood and unity.
(Tom Wassberg, 16 June 2007, 19:11)

Personally, I am still looking forward to the shuttle diplomacy.

I think a bit of listening, discussing, and adapting to the interests of both sides is far preferable to an imposed solution.

This should stop being a NATO conquest or even a humantiarian intervention - all sides should be allowed to behave in a cooperative way showing respect for the interests of the others.

The future should be about diplomacy within the Balkans, not about imposition from outside.

The international community could put its strength behind the parties to make negotiation work. Given the views of both sides, autonomy under international guarantee should be fully explored.

This should not be treated as an East-West, US-Russia confrontation. The local interests of the Balkans should not have to suffer because of that. The US government should give a bit more space to the exploration of possibilities.

The EU should take a lead and stop seeing this as a problem that requires a heavy hand and instead lead both sides towards a positive diplomatic road-map for the future - one that gives impetus to establish trust and good relations.

Dragan,
So you see how lucky you are. Russia determines the events of the world and she is your great protector. So nothing wrong can happen to you.

Dear B92

You edit and even refuse to post some pro-Serb and Russian comments yet you allow the following comment >

"fascist leftist" (e.g. walter) cites Russia as a champion of international law only because they are against western democracies (USA and Europe).
Serbia, I fear that you are on the wrong side of the barricade.
(massimo, 19. July 2007 14:59)

I am appalled by your mediating, this man massimo just called someone who does not agree with him a fascist leftist"
This is rude and provided no constructive argument on this board and indicates truly the lack of education some e who post here. There is no independence for them today and shall be no independence tomorrow, next week, next month or next year, but as long as America keeps making promises they cannot keep these Albanians will keep going and going without a moments thought about what the reality is.

To all the "pro-Serb" commentators -
We all know what the truth is - KosovO is Serbia & that's AMEN!

CCCC

the thing is status quo can not continue...let's agree to that first...anybody sane still thinks albanians will live under the serbs again? russia is playing its one game but things have to move forward...kosova/o needs supervision so why wait? within UN or outside just get it done...my 2 cents
peace and love

Kate: "The occurences in 1999 have no bearing on any of this. That was settled by Resolution 1244."

I remember very well that you called "what happened in 1999" Serbia "misbehaving"... given that attitude, everything else you write shows what a european you are and what a disinterested party you are in this discussion.

Actually Olf the Milosovic era probably wasnt that great but it did represent a great struggle of Serbs against western influence where Milosovic defied the great powers which is in fact the one and only reason the clinton administration decided to support the KLA.

The Milosovic era is finshed, not much of an era frankly but your right times are moving on and unfortunatly your average Serb who probably never supported Milosovic's brutal aproach to protecting Serbs in Kosovo from sepratists have bore the consequences.

Serbia does no deserve to have 15% of it's territory taken from it aggressivly by a nation whos WW2 attempts to create an "ethnic Albania" have been prosperous in Serbia and Macedonia. Incedently that same nation of Albania has yet to apologise for those crimes.

So if your a realist like me and you can compare the relative damage Olaf to Serbs in Kosovo compared to Albanians anyone can see the Serbs have been much more the victims, and no this is not propoganda try checking how many HAVENT been run from their homes by angry Albanians; not very many...and this is the foundation for a country?

Kate, thank you, now I understand what you are saying, but it still escapes me why you are saying it.

Unlike many other posters, you are obviously not emotionally connected to the issue, and are something of a "impartial observer". However, in my opinion, taking that too far and treating the issue like it was happening in a void, is not very helpful. The region the issue has a rich and complex history, which has to be taken into account and which makes it unique. We are not talking about "a country", "a part of a country" and "a minority", we are talking about Serbia, Kosovo and Kosovo Albanians.

Here we go again! "one way or another", our way or no way, if I don't get what I want then I'll huff & puff and blow your house down. The arrogant, powerful, spoiled child of the world, better known as the USA. Someone should ask the question; is the US really serious about "the war on terror" when we are hell bent on creating another breeding ground for terrorists in the heart of Europe? We are "fighting terror" and at the same time perpetuating, aiding and appeasing the KLA. Who really poses the largest threat to world stability? Absolute power corrupts absolutely, finally some countries (Russia, china, Serbia and many more) are starting to see that a mono superpower is clearly the greatest threat. They are forming (out of necessity) counter power blocks that "one way or another" will end this threat to humanity!

Ahmet,after your famous quote of the century i would be ashamed to ever again post something on this site if i were you!
P.S. Duma president Grizlov said today Russia will use veto...

Hasan - you are accusing me of having aliases AND saying something I never said? You are actually quoting someone completely different in a bid to prove something that I never have, and never would have, said?
Get a grip!

Lowe, very good explanation. I get the picture. It's like Serbia van Pokrajina being called simply SErbia internationally. Thanks for the explanation

Joe,
I feel very lucky to have a great nation such as Russia as an ally. I realize that you are hungarian and despise the Russians, but they are our ethnic brethren.

The Serbs in Kosovo should all move to the north immediately to protect themselves from being massacred by the Islamists once independence is not recognized by the UNSC but is recognized by the US.NATO should form a Maginot Line between the Serbs in the north and the rest of Kosovo.It has become obvious that there is no legal way to revoke the deed of ownership to the land that was acquired by Serbia in 1912 before Yugoslavia even existed and the drawing of pseudo political borders/lines by the Communists in order to dilute Serbia's size.However,the US is going to go ahead and recognize Kosovo anyway and then all hell will break loose.The EU works great as an economic/free trade zone but is impotent in solving political problems without asking for US interference in Europen affairs.It is ironic that the US is a country with 50 states and only 300 million people while the EU has 27 states but 500 million people and an economy richer than the US so why does the EU need the spoiled child of Europe(USA)to solve European issues?

What is option number 2? Give up Georgia? Give up Moldova? Azerbaijan? Serbia will be nationalistic as well as RS and Bosnia as a whole? No nation around Kosovo said they support it if it goes unilateral aside from albania.

Dragan,

If US recognizes Kosova as it is, with current borders, Serbia will need a miracle to anex North. You don't suppose Serbia would fight US, do you? That would be a catastrophy for Serbia. I strongly suggest moderate Serbs to endorse a land swap proposal before Kosova is recognized by US and EU.

North Kosova minus Trepcha for Presheva, Bujanoc, and few villages of Medwedja.

Ahmet
"mark my words, Russia will never use its VETO", I marked them as well. Shows how much weight ur posts carry.

We had in 1988.the same "out of UN" solution, which lead to the disaster. USA offers more disasters.

Ahmet's "mark my words-Russia will never use veto!"

Ahmet I too have marked your words! Are there any other words you would like us to mark?

Joe,

The FACT is today "July 19" there is no independence! Soon it will be December 19 and still no independence, so I ask you who is in charge, the Americans or the Russians, the current status of Kosovo tells us who is in charge, everything else is just pipe-dreams my friend.

"This is an issue of rule of law to our minds, not an issue of politics," Rice said at a news conference in Portugal. This is the US Secretary of State citing "Rule of Law", concerning the Litvinenko matter. But "Rule of Law" does not apply to Kosovo? Hypocrit!
Since 1984, the number of Vetos used by UNSC permanent members has been: China, two; France, three; Russia/USSR, four; the United Kingdom, 10; and the United States, 43. It is clear who the obstructionists are.

If the US goes around the UN again, then just do away with this world body comletely. It will then be a lot quicker for America to impose it's will on the rest of the world.

I guess the way the law works is having a major overhaul, We are learning the hard way why the UN is not as great as it should have been, We are also learning how Russia its not really what it portrays it is, Whe are learning also that the West has found their ground in one key point,
Now the problem is Serbia, with the territory in Europe and the spirit in Russia. With the problems in Belgrade and with its dreams in Kosovo.
As for Kosovo, it is the place that belongs to Europe, the people are looking towards the democracy that has been build, than the oppression that has been ruled.
Anyway i hear the cry's of your woman why the man don't go to yet another war and the pensioners why their sons are not willing to pick up arms. I urge not to listen to that, those people are going on about memory not common sense.

RE: Naroknnh Karabake

Karabakh Republic (Reuters) -- Voting for a new leader started in the breakaway region of Nagorno-Karabakh on Thursday in an election intended to stress the Armenian-populated region's self-proclaimed independence from Azerbaijan.


Armenia's current president Robert Kocharyan is a former leader of Nagorno-Karabakh.

The head of the region's election commission Sergey Nasibyan hailed the election campaign as democratic and said local and foreign observers were monitoring the polls, Armenian television reported.

Muslim Azerbaijan, which lost control of Nagorno-Karabakh after a war in the early 1990s, has already denounced the election as illegal under international law.

At least 25 percent of the enclave's 91,000 voters have to take part for the 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. (0300 to 1500 GMT) election to be considered valid by Karabakh authorities. Anyone taking over 50 percent of the votes in the first round wins outright.

Karabakh seceded from Azerbaijan in the 1990s and proclaimed independence, though this has not been recognized by the rest of the world.

No international organizations will monitor the vote, in which five hopefuls are running to replace Karabakh's current leader Arkady Gukasyan, who is due to step down after holding the post for two five-year terms.

Bako Saakyan, a 46-year-old former head of Karabakh's security service who is openly supported by the incumbent, is the favorite to win. His main rival is the region's deputy foreign minister Masis Mailyan, aged 39.

Many of the Azeri minority fled during the fighting, which claimed more than 35,000 lives before a cease-fire was brokered in 1994, and the region is now populated almost entirely by ethnic Armenians, who enjoy Christian Armenia's backing.

Armenia's current president Robert Kocharyan is a former leader of Nagorno-Karabakh.

"The authorities have declared their support for Saakyan. This means it is namely him who will become the next president," said a taxi driver in the Karabakh capital, Stepanakert.

Both leading contenders are adamant on the main issue -- full independence for Karabakh.

Saakyan says he wants to make the sliver of land and its 140,000 people "an example of democratic rule" to persuade the international community to recognize Karabakh's independence.

"Creating civil society is the way towards resolving the Nagorno-Karabakh issue," he has said during his campaign.

The Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe has been trying to broker a peace deal between Azerbaijan and Armenia since the 1994 cease-fire.

Mailyan said he hopes that eventual international recognition of Serbia's rebel province of Kosovo, populated mainly by ethnic Albanians, will create an important precedent leading to officially accepted independence for Karabakh.

"The Kosovo precedent, if it occurs and if international recognition finally takes place, is of interest to me because an unrecognized state will thus become recognized, irrespective of what its mother country has to say," Mailyan told Reuters.

"This means we have a chance to become independent -- according to a new scenario."

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has already said he does not consider Kosovo a precedent for Nagorno-Karabakh. E-mail to a friend


The US and EU could not picked a better time to try and dismember Kosovo & Metohija from Serbia. UN Chief Ban Ki Moon is kidding himself if and independant Kosovo would not and does not set a precedent.

Compare the Kosovo issue to the Palestine issue in the UNSC.The whole international community(so called democratic and non-democratic states)pass a resolution calling on Israel to do this or that BUT the US is the only country that vetoes it.The US has used its veto more times than all the other 4 permanent members put together(if my memory serves me correctly).Is this democratic?It may very well be more democratic to abolish the veto so no ONE country can prevent a measure/resoultion from going forward but I guarantee you that the most democratic country in the world(UNITED STATES OF AMERICA) would VETO that from happening.How ironic indeed.It is time to stop the hypocrisy about one issue being unique or more important than any other issue only when it suits your view and the legalist Europeans should be smart enough to realize what is important for the long term stability of Europe.Resolution 1244 stands so start implementing it!

Joe

My suggestions are peaceful and imply a total move away from the terrors of the past.

Democratic forces must work within the contraints of human rights. The politicians that govern must not be ethnically motivated - that applies to both sides. The EU model of cooperation and dialogue is the one that needs to be followed.

I can sense a New Cold War!
Big Powers are bored with Afghanistan,Iraq,Kosova/o.
They want something more exciting!
Now the latest"victim",Kosova/o is used by both big Powers to see who is the strongest!
What a shame.
Promises coming from one side,the use of veto on the other and where this is leading us:"The world is gone mad"!!!
Miss.C.Rice thank you for your support.
Kosovan Albanians will be always greatful to your country,but if you really mean it I think it is time to do something about it.
Kosovan People have suffered enough,on both sides.
In the beggining of talks nobody was for partition,at the moment I think Partition is the best option.It will be very hard for citizens on "wrong" sides but we all know that at the moment there is no a guarenteed life between Kosovan Albanians and Kosovan Serbs.So lets share the cake and live happily after.
One thing the West is doing wrong is that they are forgetting that Russia is not their partner,an ally,it was and always will be their biggest Enemy!
For that I am surprise why they are trying to negotiate with them!!!
Cheerio!

Joe

My suggestions are peaceful and imply a total move away from the terrors of the past.

Democratic forces must work within the contraints of human rights. The politicians that govern must not be ethnically motivated - that applies to both sides. The EU model of cooperation and dialogue is the one that needs to be followed.

I see a lot of Albanians here advocating Kosovo's independence, but they should be careful what they wish for because they might get it.

An independent Kosovo will be recognized by some countries (the U.S. and half of the EU) and not by others (Russia, China and the other half of the EU).

Kosovo won't be able to join the UN or international organizations. It will have an isolated status and its economy won't be able to function.

A Kosovo with a disputed status isn't in anyone's best interest.

The best solution is for Kosovo to have the same autonomus status in Serbia that Hong Kong has in China.

I know some will say "we tried autonomy before and it didn't work". But it really hasn't been done in Kosovo before.

Kosovo never had autonomy in anything but name. The SFRY was a single party state where every decision was made by the League of Communists, which explains why the deputies in the Kosovo assembly voted to forfeit Kosovo's "autonomy" in 1989 -- it the will of the Communist party.

What I am proposing is an autonomus Kosovo with a democratic multi-party system. That is something that has never been done before.

Kosovo's autonomy should be enshrined in the Serbian constitution with a provision stating that the Constitution can not be ammended unless a 2/3rds majority in the Kosovo and Vojovodina Assemblies vote to ratify the amendments.

I really don't see a viable solution other than an autonomus Kosovo within Serbia.

An independent Kosovo will be a failed state. The economy won't function and it will be a heaven for organized crime and corruption. I can't see how that is in the best interests of the average Kosovo-Albanian or anybody else.

Rice said that "the U.S. was committed to an independent Kosovo and would get there one way or another."

This is like saying: "my way or highway".

Let's all leave a history asied and let's start thinkink like:... Nobody is asking what you were or where you were, but insted is asking what are you and where you are right now......-- and the reality is... Who control Kosovo right now... Where do the taxes go, who colect them? Serbia? I don't think so!

I can't wait to be in Kosovo for Christmas and celebrate independence with home made RAKIJA made by my serbian komsija (they are going to celebrate it too, it's their country too)lol.

why is everyone adamantly opposed to partition? Taking recent history into account, one can deduce from what happened in Bosnia, that in the Balkans, should Kosovo be granted independence Serbs will not be protected (especially given that the current Kosovo administration committed crimes against the same. In addition, Serbs' sacred monasteries continue to be desecrated, thereby depriving the world of substantial history and by example denying any guarantees for future protection. Same on the other hand, just like Serbs will not subdue to Albanian government neither will Albanians to that in belgrade (even if only formally). It comes to my understanding that the controversy of partition arises from distant serbian enclaves, but one should acknowledge gerrymandering as a reasonable option in that scenario. Arrogance on behalf of Cheku, Kostunica etc. with regards to partition is not needed if the world truly wants to see a viable solution and not another civil war in the Balkans.

"because they will recognise you are say: we gave what we promised, we cant make everyone do it. "

That still beats than living under Serbia. How many times do Albanians have to tell you, that anything else beats living under Serbia or having any connection with Serbia. While not an ideal solution even if the US is the only party that recognizes it, its still better than what Serbia has to offer.

This is alarming politics and unbelievable niavety.
Stealing Serbian land, Serbian sovereign territory.
Americans promising without legal right.
Americans have occupied but have no legal right to steal Serbian sovereign territory and hand it to an ethnic
Albanian minority.
In line with the Serbian constitution, no Serb, will accept an independent Kosovo and Metohija.
The solution is for Belgrade and Pristina to work through acceptable autonomy and international community should be encouraging this course.
In the long run it will be the US blamed for making a dangerous situation more dangerous.

Let’s have a look at the question of implementation. Which scenario is the least destructive to implement?

Is it far less destructive to give Kosova to Serbia or to give Kosova its independence from Serbia?

Let’s now have a look at the situation on the ground today. Independence from Serbia is essentially what Kosova has now. With or without UN approval things will essentially stay the same on the ground. We can safely say that Kosova will keep this status quo that is independence from Serbia for a little while longer. Therefore for the average observer it is less destructive to give Kosova what it already has. If Serbia wishes to alter the status quo it will then need to comprehend this particular word “destructive”. What would it cost and how much it would need to sacrifice. If Serbia wants Kosova under it’s sovereignty it will have to go and get it. Kosova will not be handed back to Serbia without the will of the majority in Kosova.

Since when has the UN or the SC been relevant? If that's a requirement we are all in trouble.

Canadian I appreciate your posts and look forward to reading them but, Massimo wrote “ANTI FASCIST LEFTIST (e.g. WALTER). Thank you Massimo I wear that title with honor. But it is too bad that Massimo does not understand the difference between political right and left ideology and I will not go into its difference here, suffice to say leftists support progress, human rights regardless of gender, religion or color, economic and political democracy, rule of law and internationalism while fascists which Massimo protects by his statement about me are reactionary who believe in elitism, dictatorship, racism, nationalism, war, book burning followed by burning people. Canadian you are correct about B92 they have refused to print many of my posts and changed other ones. B92’s use of a disclaimer that they are not responsible for our posts is not correct since by censoring what we write the post become theirs not ours. I can substantiate everything that I write with evidence and I have never been vulgar or rude. At times I may have applied a comment to one person that might have been interpreted as applying to the whole people for that I apologize. I can understand B92 not publishing offensive material and name calling but their choice of articles that they publish indicates their bias. I occasionally go to a right wing website the DRUDGE REPORT and the only Serbian news outlet on this site is B92. Coincidence? I don’t think so.