France: No Kosovo deal with Russia

World want to find a solution for Kosova while Russia is just opposing everything and suggesting nothing again., so sad.
It looks as Contact Group will decide on Kosova now. This is going to prolong Kosova’s independence for couple of month nothing else. I personally favour this solution since it does not mention Ahtisari package. Ahtisari package has given too much to 15000 Serbs living in Kosova. They deserve nothing more than the other communities support the claim of the majority, live and accept Kosova as their country.
As for the failed Belgrade politicians, housewife’s and pensioners that oppose Kosova’s solution question is what after Kosova’s independence. Would these politicians leave politics same as Milosevic did as they have deceived their housewife’s and politicians or will they carry on and send Serbia to endless darkness, or people will topple such loosers

Kosova now is building it economy robbed from Serbia during 80’s and 90’s slowly, 35 growth reported for the past 6 months. Not too much but it is a positive start.
Human rights are in the same level if not better than in Serbia.
Unemployment still high but it is not rising. People get working visas easier so they go in EU and work.
Of course there are many other positive things and normally negative ones. All it matters is not to be part of Serbia the rest we will overcome.

By the way. Serbia was told that Kosova independence is conditioned with their entry to EU. If no Independence no EU for Serbia. No EU for Serbia means .. well you know best  since most of you live in EU

So basically, whether the vote goes ahead or not (probably not), there will be no passing of the new resolution. Any talks in the Contact Group would have to then feed back into the UN, because no other body has the mandate to deal with this.

That means that Resolution 1244, protecting Serbia's sovereignty, stays in place until a new UN resolution is passed. This can only be done by transferring the rights to sovereignty and the return of displaced people etc. into any new resolution, thereby making it acceptable.

This is the only way forward, and any talks or movements outside the UN will be irrelevant under the international legal and security framework.

Why not just jump to the end game and put together a proper resolution which can be agreed by all members?

I really object to the way that the media via various governments are painting Russia as the sticking point to peace in the region. One report this morning even went as far as saying Russia was preventing Serbia's entry into the EU!

I never thought I would say it, but thank goodness that Russia is actually protecting the global peace and security framework, the integrity of national borders, and standing up to the US. The US should change tactic on the international stage.

The UK's Barbara Pierce is as lightweight as a minor US civil servant in all of this.

Putin's plan backfiring, he wanted recognition in russia with out loosing outside. Now look what have you done. Isolation is creeping in, The good thing is they will take serbia with them. And kosovo doesn't want anything to do with these both two. Joining the EU is clear, the 120 days have started. Enjoy it serbia

Shame on russia.
russia was/is part of contact group and Ahtisari git the blessing from everyone on the group to work on Koosva issue.He did and came out with the only feesable solution to the problem. Now russia is against what it has agreed from day one.UK Ambasodor to UN is right, they should go ahead with vote and and thantake it from there.russia is beatting on dead horse.

The so called contact group is desperately grasping at straws and if they do what they are threatening it will be illegal and if a declaration of independence comes out of it and recognized by the contact group it will still be legal and war will mostly likely break out which will result in a lot of needless loss of life for all sides, Albanians, Serbs and NATO, finally the end result will be partition. Kosovo is smaller then the size of Los Angeles and if its divided, the nearly 2 million Albanians will not have much land to move about, not to mention they will never be aloud to join the EU, there will always be someone to oppose it, the first country that comes to mind is Greece, and there are others, but especially Serbia which will mostly likely become a member if not sooner then later but certainly before Albanian Kosovo is considered but even before it gets to that, Albanian Kosovo will not be aloud to merge with Albania and they will never get energy from Russia or get any serious investment by anyone into their part of Kosovo. Life will be very hard for many generations of Albanians in Kosovo while the Serbian half will prosper because of they are tied to Serbia. The whole thing is such a bad idea and when compared to broad supervised autonomy it is a sickening alternative. If a credible member of the Albanian community were to explain to the average Albanian what I have described in this post I think the vast majority of Albanins would choose broad supervised autonomy but sadly this will not happen. And for that everyone can thank the USA, France, UK and Germany, Italy is more or less just being bullied by the other 4 and cannot stand up for themselves. I hope its just another bluff, probably it is.

I don't think Churkin's words could have been any stronger. 'Zero chance' of passing I believe he said. It is so refreshing to see Russia acting as the superpower that they are, and the shameful days of Yeltsin are behind them. The Russians have put to shame the US and UK, who are clearlyh on the wrong side of this debate. Kate is right, Russia is on the side of justice and international law, while the US and UK are on the side of the 'might is right' philosophy, which is no longer effective since we now have a more balanced world.

Dear all,
I just wanted to say that now Serbia is really in strange situation, they even do not know what really is going to happen, they should be aware that Serbia belongs to Eruopian continent and should think to be part of EU. The problem is that Russia is using Serbia as a tool to achive other objectives. If really Russia does not want to cooperate in Contact Group this means that the world now is going to be divided in two parts, but for Serbia is not good to be far away from EU. So Serbia now should take care what is going to do with their future. Kosovo in one way or other must be independent country, if no then all the other countries of the world have to accept Russia as a ruler and WORLD SUPERPOWER, what is not true.
Conclusion: Balkanians think it over and give peace to suffer nations and let Kosova and Serbia to have future in EU.

Well its just obvious to anyone with two grams of sense that Russia has decided it's not playing the game America tells it to play and has finally decided to stand up for it's own views.
So what do the Albanians on this forum really have to say? Not alot really because there are some to talk of isolation for Russia and other ridicules tryp but the fact remains; Russia will not be told what to do like the UK, the Serbs know it and so do the Albanians actually; what is going on with the UN SC is one sided and unacceptable.
Solution:
Wide autonomy for Kosovo i.e schools are Albanian and other services
EU integration with Serbia
Huge investment in Kosovo from Serbia
-
Serbs are allowed back to their homes
Remains part of Serbia formally

Its a win win situation whereas a independant Kosovo with a veto on it's doorstep is in knowones interests apart from the US.

Dear kate
i feel like a professor at thesis markings when i have to wipe the fog from your glasses so you can better view the situation.
"thank goodness that Russia is actually protecting the global peace" You are talking a country that has no connection with kosovo, a country that agreed to appoint Ahtisari with the contact group, a country that continues to boycott EU procedures for self interests. I am ashamed that you claim to be a concerned EU citizen that doesn't listen to your own representatives. I am pretty sure that the EU's intentions are for the independence.
You say you are woried about precedents and such, You mean the ones that already happened in USSR, Yugoslavia, but the serbs nationalist are to proud to give it to albania speaking majority?
Kate please when you write, Show your EU side not your nationalistic links.

This is Cold War all over again. Now everyone has to choose sides... Albanians, Serbs, Greeks... If Europe allows Russia to blackmail it now that it is 15% dependent on Russian energy, imagine what will happen when this dependency is 60%! It is better to confront the Russians now and clear out things. 15% can be sustained, albeit with problems. If dependence reaches higher numbers, we might just as well start learning russian. Thank God that US will not give in and neither the countries that know russia well (poland, Czechs, Baltic countries...)

lucky bunny

I/m just trying to bring some sense and correct the incorrect data to some of the posters in here.
We/they/all know what the end result is" Kosova is going to be independent", but we like to exchange the views.
lucky bunny

I/m just trying to bring some sense and correct the incorrect data to some of the posters in here.
We/they/all know what the end result is" Kosova is going to be independent", but we like to exchange the views.
Posting of Vuk just reconfirms that Serbs like him cant stand Albanians just because they are Albanians. Vuk, I don’t come here to provoke anyone but to bring facts. Facts, truth hurts. People of Serbia are being faced in everyday life with them. You care to suggest Milosheviq regime solution still, but I believe that Serbians will reject them and you as well.

Jovan, you’re right when you say that Kosova underdevelopment is a result of discriminatory eco-politics of Belgrade since 80’s. You are right about some criminal elements in Kosova economy but the same thing applies to Serbia too.
After all, since 99 Kosova has reached a satisfactory or batter said, excepted level of Economical development.

As for the Serb diaspora, hopeless as the Belgrade failed politicians. These guys(unlike the Serbs in Serbia proper)still believe in their failed politicians, though cant do much about it. Some people just never learn a lesson. They care to suggest to their fellow Serbians in Serbia to oppose the US and EU solution and to go with Russia. Of course that they do that, they don’t live in Serbia. They live in US and EU, safe with good jobs and salaries, if something goes wrong in Serbia they just say “sorry” or not even that, and carry on with their normal life’s …

Which one of the Albanians here was constantly repeating "mark my words:Russia will never use veto!"???:-)

First of all was pleased this morning to hear that it's been made some progress regarding kosovo issue,as an europian I do not belive that russia is any help to us.Starting the war in Yugoslavia in 1991 led by milosevic and helped by russia,which then russia used to say the same thing as it says now, just then was yugoslavia and now is serbia (soverinity big deal).Russia than and now has the same objectives,its in russia's favor to see europe unsetlet,etc.Russia does not have relationship with its own ex republics ...
When Milosevic was torturing civilians of yugoslavia and later kosovans the question is who supported sirbia the ony country against the world of course russia.Europians we better steak together and russia you stay at your place and give your own people freedom.

Vuk,

most of olf's comments are only written to provoke anti-albanian comments in order to portrait oneself as a victim and "the Serbs" as the villains.

if one of those who are provoking here would mention the real reasons for Kosovo´s economical underdevelopement, like their criminal clan-structures based on brutal force and intimidation of even the own poeple, I would have read him with more care.

even if Mr.Burns says a single line ( without any prospect of keeping what is promised, like so often lately) they start partying and being sarcastic, without realizing that they are being played with.

Dear Olf, don’t in any case underestimate housewives, especially pensioners in Serbia because they make up more then 70 % of overall Serbian population. Kate is “right; Russia protects global peace and security etc, let mention Chechnya, 15 years now it is sample of security, prosperity and what else…
Kosova has become at the same time a clear indicator on who is who. i.e. Greece, and some other who think that US should change its role in global issues; or what they’d like more is US to disappear at all. Thanks God; Serbia will very soon “become” EU member (to jest) became decision – making factor, and it will never vote any resolution regarding Kosova. Imagine, Serbia free of the problem called Kosova.
But what is relaxing – there is a guy named Canadien, who has discovered that average Albanians aren’t informed about…otherwise they will wide open hands hugging autonomy. Ups, but we (Albanians) have already been acquainted by credible Serbians what the “wide” autonomy was. I see – we are a bunch of bad pupils….we never learn anything. In the end – current Russia’s stance is nothing but delusion. Tell me where else had Russia made any decision in global issues? Russia has come in the stage thanks to Serbia’s stupid politics.

Walter, about kates comment, it is a double standard that she claims Russia is boycotting the Eu's will and calling it holding up International Peace. As for Russia being involved with Kosovo, they have done nothing to the scale or America, England, France, Germany, Austria,Italy,Greece, New Zealand, Scandinavia and many others that have contributed into realising that Kosovo needs a new direction. Russians sold arms in Kosovo and left.
And kate i am sorry for sounding patronizing but i seriously dont think you want to ask the right questions, such as why the former USSR country's don't have good relations with Russia, And why the old members of Yugoslavia would never want to have anything in common with Serbia? It is simple and clear in my judgement and in the face of the EU. The politicians in Serbia are extensions from Russia, i mean it was the Russians who supported their predecessors crimes in the Yugoslav block.
Anyway history short, i am not here to convince anybody because the main people who are in charged saw raw evidence and none of this manipulated argument that are often repeated here.
I just ask again to write with a sober mind. Most of the people who write in this site i think are Serb diaspora or Kosovo locals. The worst thing about the diaspora seems to be that all of them are in country's who support Independence, Same with the Kosovo population. Now I understand why there are frequent manipulated arguments from the Serbs side, No ground to hold on to.

Kosova's economic decline is a result of Serbian merciless exploitation. Comments about Serbia 'pouring millions' in kosova only reveal the Serb attitude for what's to come if we remain in Serbia. Posters here have exhausted all their phantasy describing what a paradise Kosova was under Serbia. Do you then wonder why we cannot even think about staying in Serbia?! Let's part and you can live in your beautiful dream of victimhood. Insulting the victims of Serbian oppression is nothing surprising and only serves as a warning to those who tend to forget what we're dealing with. Stay with principled and democratic Russia, but somehow I don't believe any of you has any appetite to go and live there.

Dear Kate,

"Why not just jump to the end game and put together a proper resolution which can be agreed by all members?"

The only "small" problem is, where such a splendid plan is dug up from? Russians or Serbs are to come up with something?

"thank goodness that Russia is actually protecting the global peace and security framework, the integrity of national borders"

Russia has a very nice history of doing just that, just ask any non-Russian Baltic or Finnish person, for example.

Any money that Serbia did invest in Kosova went for colonization programmes, to build houses and property for the Serbian ethnic minority and to settle more Serbs into the region, to build churches, remove Albanians from Kosova, to maintain an army, a police state and a security apparatus as well as fight off various rebellions. Police states tend to be expensive and that's why Kosova was a money pit, not because Serbia tried to raise the standard of living for the majority of the population.

In the same time the natural wealth of the province was regularly plundered away, the macro-economic decisions were made in Belgrade, Kosova's minerals were paying for some 20% of Yugoslavia's state budget and yet the province languished as the poorest in Yugoslavia. These were exactely the issues raised by the student protests of 1981 in Prishtina. Autonomy in Kosova was historically tested and failed.

Olf
made a heavily provocative comment above where he talked about Kosovo's economy being robbed by Serbia, that is grounds for removal because Kosovo's economy if you knew anything has been in the pits since Tito gave it autonomy and Albanian leadership took power and misued the autonomy.
So you have demonstrated the suprieme irony which is taking place in Kosovo, please get your facts right aswell because unemployment is 60% and rising from there would not really change much.
Serbia in communist times threw millions into Kosovo to develop it but the combination of poor leadership and huge birth rate meant the money could not keep up with the huge no. of Albanians being born or immigrating from Albania. Serbs, never wanting poor standards of living began to leave just as they did in WW2 for other reasons (SS), these are the reasons for the current situation and it has nothing to do with Serbia.

Kate writes:” thank goodness that Russia is actually protecting the global peace” . Russia has always observed the treaties that they signed. President Carter writes in his recent book that US has broken every nuclear treaty that they have signed since WWII.

John2,

Yes the Cold War is back and contributors like Kate and Dragan already took side as cheerleaders of Russia.
And yes the blackmailing of Europe by Russia already started. This is a wake up call to Western Europe. Poland, the Czech republik and the Baltic countries always knew what kind of country Russia is.
Contrary to their intent the Russians are making Europe a big favor. They are going to help the Europeens to reach a bigger cohasion and unity.

The integrity of US and UK has been seriously eroded by the quagmire of Iraq. In fact foreign policy dictated by the US has in general been a disaster. Why not look at some other opinions for a change. The US and UK might learn something.

Hasan, "…'pouring millions' in kosova…"

that fact is easy to check. As a least developed region of ex - YU, Kosovo was main beneficiary of the fond for underdeveloped regions of the YU federation. All republics contributed proportionally to their wealth.

Have you ever compared quality of life and living standards in Kosovo during the SFRJ days with Albania of the same period? (Considering the fact that in Albania Albanians were free to organize as they wished without interference from the Serbs it was certainly paradise, or maybe not?)

BALKAN a nice name for a country? You write “Russia is using Serbia as a tool to achive other objectives”., and what exactly are they trying to achieve? Peace through unilateral, bi-lateral, or multi lateral agreements or did they just resume their role as the policeman of Europe that they held after the Napoleonic Wars? Or is there objective preservation of their own unity which is under attack since the Reds fought the Whites after WWI? Balkan I see in your post the stereotype of the Russians and the Slavs as people with a “dark side”. Mr. Balkan professor tell your students to think, think, and think, read, read, and read, analyze, analyze, and analyze, question, question and question but first take your own advice and you will be amazed how quickly the fog lifts and you find yourself in sunshine.

ADRIANO I did not realize that Kate was your student. As her professor you should encourage her to question rather than telling her how to think. You write that Russia has “no connection with Kosovo. As a professor you should know better. Russia has over 150 ethnic groups within its borders and that gives her a very real connection with Kosovo. There are too many would be “Tin Pot” dictators who want a nation to rule. The precedent has nothing to do with the breakup of USSR and everything to do with religious and political zealots who care nothing about you or me or our families as long as they have a seat at the table.

Heh, no independence. No vote or Vote + VETO and even if some countries recognize u, u r still Serbia proper. One of the best days of my life.

Some pretend europeans here seem to ignore the fact that Russia has been contaminating my country with radioactive material and is refusing even to discuss the evidence, whose trail leads straight to Kremlin. What else are we to expect from Russia? That's not a behavior you expect from a normal country. It is turning into a rogue state.

Under article 27 of the UN Charter decisions in the 15-member Security Council on all substantive matters—for example, a decision calling for direct measures related to the settlement of a dispute— require the affirmative votes of nine members. A negative vote—a veto—by a permanent member prevents adoption of a proposal, even if it has received the required number of affirmative votes. Abstention is not regarded as a veto despite the wording of the Charter. Since 1984, the numbers have been: China, two; France, three; Russia/USSR, four; the United Kingdom, 10; and the United States, 43.
Please tell me who the World's REAL obstructionist is? Who wants things IT'S way, or no way.

right so.


international law mustn´t get an issue of "dealing".

it´s not quite complimentary for the french foreign-policy if that is the way France wants to act internationally.

...and finally, only the Albanians can say "shame on Russia" since they themselves are the side that is acting in a shameful way.
( don´t wanna mention the beating of a 74-year old woman in Priština a few weeks ago, - no Albanian here condemned it although I urged them to do so - or all those burnt down churches and cemeteries - everyone with eyes can see what Albanians are doing while shamelessly calling it "liberation".

it´s like in " 1984 " ... war is peace,freedom is slavery, ignorance is strenght and in this "unique case" independence is theft.

If EU takes over after 120 days with or without resollution. Which it probably will, then, the game is over for Serbia and Russia. US and dozens of EU countries are determined to recognize Kosova's independence. Russia's angering of the US and the west will in the end play in favor of Kosova independence.

Here is a new scenario that most of you have not thought about.

EU is sinere in wanting to break Kosovo from Serbia.

EU brings Serbia in their fold.

EU tells Kosovo that it needs to come up to standards and fulfill specific obligations in order to join EU, knowing full well that not in a million years will these obligations and standards be fulfilled thereby cutting off 2 million Muslims from entering EU.

With Serbia keeping Kosovo, EU must take the Muslims if it takes Serbia.

Stevan T

Adriano:

You said to kate, "...i seriously dont think you want to ask the right questions, such as... why the old members of Yugoslavia would never want to have anything in common with Serbia?"

What exactly are you talking about?? You mean like Serbia, economically, being called the Balkan Tiger, or Serbia's success in major sports on the world's stage, or Belgrade's extraordinary nigthlife and beautiful women, or the Eurovision 2007 Championship, or Serbia's growing reputation in worldly diplomacy coming as a direct result its spirited resistance to the on-going attempted land-grab of Kosovo? Should I continue? None of the former Yugoslav republics can boast these achievements. I don't think it makes Serbs any more important than any other nationality of Yugoslavia, it's just that you made a curious remark that lacks something called substantiation.

It is ironic that the Albanians are fighting so hard to get supervised independence because however unlikely it is, even if they get it, they will never get full independence. Kosovo will belong to NATO and the EU forever, so several years later a fight for independence will start all over again except this time it will be called TRUE INDPENDECE. The sad thing is that no one alive today in Kosovo will ever taste true independence not in the next 75 years or more. The alternative is supervised broad autonomy which is the closet the Albanians will ever get to "true independence" .

France has proven to be against a number of EU member states agreeances.

So, who do you believe, someone as small as France or as large as Russia?

Russia's position has proven to be a powerful one, particularly with the recent meeting of Putin & bush in ME - all because Russian oil, one can only imagine, but nonetheless, you don't see France's hiearchy going to the States.

Independence will not happen & KosovO will remain a part of Serbia.

Peter, I was at least one of them that I said russia will not veto the resolution. But I never though in milion years that russia is so stupid.
One thing Peter, I am still right because resolution has not gone for vote for russia to use veto powers, all russia is saying that they do not agree with resolution, that is all so far. So can you tell when did russio veto the resolution, becasue I have no such knowledge.

Destan Belaxhia,

Do you ever read, research and inquire your information outside a Pristina cafe? Your remark "I'd say Kosova will become a member of EU lot faster than Serbia. It's the politics, not Economy anymore!"

Kosovo is a criminal haven, it has 70% unemployment, 50% of the people over the age of 20 don't even have basic American equivalent high school completed, there is very few skilled laborers there. These are the ingredients according to you to enter the EU? As for independence, you don't have it! Just check any map printed anywhere in the world. You will not have it, its pretty clear to anyone with any common sense.

Adriano - I have no nationalistic links as I have said many times.

"i feel like a professor at thesis markings"

Perhaps if you tried a little harder, Professor Adriano, you could be even more patronising.

Stevan T,

Who are you kidding? If EU administers Kosova, their own administrators will try to fulfil EU's acquired conditions. If they fail, that would ruin EU's reputation. I'd say Kosova will become a member of EU lot faster than Serbia. It's the politics, not Economy anymore!

“If EU administers Kosova, their own administrators will try to fulfil EU's acquired conditions. (Destan Belaxhia, 19. July 2007 00:41)”

Destan is that why Bosnia is so close to EU membership now?

The reality is once the status of Kosovo is resolved you will have to sacrifice much and work very hard to compete against larger Western countries. Are you ready? Do you have a plan already?

World want to find a solution for Kosova while Russia is just opposing everything and suggesting nothing again., so sad.
It looks as Contact Group will decide on Kosova now. This is going to prolong Kosova’s independence for couple of month nothing else. I personally favour this solution since it does not mention Ahtisari package. Ahtisari package has given too much to 15000 Serbs living in Kosova. They deserve nothing more than the other communities support the claim of the majority, live and accept Kosova as their country.
As for the failed Belgrade politicians, housewife’s and pensioners that oppose Kosova’s solution question is what after Kosova’s independence. Would these politicians leave politics same as Milosevic did as they have deceived their housewife’s and politicians or will they carry on and send Serbia to endless darkness, or people will topple such loosers

Kosova now is building it economy robbed from Serbia during 80’s and 90’s slowly, 35 growth reported for the past 6 months. Not too much but it is a positive start.
Human rights are in the same level if not better than in Serbia.
Unemployment still high but it is not rising. People get working visas easier so they go in EU and work.
Of course there are many other positive things and normally negative ones. All it matters is not to be part of Serbia the rest we will overcome.

By the way. Serbia was told that Kosova independence is conditioned with their entry to EU. If no Independence no EU for Serbia. No EU for Serbia means .. well you know best  since most of you live in EU

So basically, whether the vote goes ahead or not (probably not), there will be no passing of the new resolution. Any talks in the Contact Group would have to then feed back into the UN, because no other body has the mandate to deal with this.

That means that Resolution 1244, protecting Serbia's sovereignty, stays in place until a new UN resolution is passed. This can only be done by transferring the rights to sovereignty and the return of displaced people etc. into any new resolution, thereby making it acceptable.

This is the only way forward, and any talks or movements outside the UN will be irrelevant under the international legal and security framework.

Why not just jump to the end game and put together a proper resolution which can be agreed by all members?

I really object to the way that the media via various governments are painting Russia as the sticking point to peace in the region. One report this morning even went as far as saying Russia was preventing Serbia's entry into the EU!

I never thought I would say it, but thank goodness that Russia is actually protecting the global peace and security framework, the integrity of national borders, and standing up to the US. The US should change tactic on the international stage.

The UK's Barbara Pierce is as lightweight as a minor US civil servant in all of this.

The so called contact group is desperately grasping at straws and if they do what they are threatening it will be illegal and if a declaration of independence comes out of it and recognized by the contact group it will still be legal and war will mostly likely break out which will result in a lot of needless loss of life for all sides, Albanians, Serbs and NATO, finally the end result will be partition. Kosovo is smaller then the size of Los Angeles and if its divided, the nearly 2 million Albanians will not have much land to move about, not to mention they will never be aloud to join the EU, there will always be someone to oppose it, the first country that comes to mind is Greece, and there are others, but especially Serbia which will mostly likely become a member if not sooner then later but certainly before Albanian Kosovo is considered but even before it gets to that, Albanian Kosovo will not be aloud to merge with Albania and they will never get energy from Russia or get any serious investment by anyone into their part of Kosovo. Life will be very hard for many generations of Albanians in Kosovo while the Serbian half will prosper because of they are tied to Serbia. The whole thing is such a bad idea and when compared to broad supervised autonomy it is a sickening alternative. If a credible member of the Albanian community were to explain to the average Albanian what I have described in this post I think the vast majority of Albanins would choose broad supervised autonomy but sadly this will not happen. And for that everyone can thank the USA, France, UK and Germany, Italy is more or less just being bullied by the other 4 and cannot stand up for themselves. I hope its just another bluff, probably it is.

Putin's plan backfiring, he wanted recognition in russia with out loosing outside. Now look what have you done. Isolation is creeping in, The good thing is they will take serbia with them. And kosovo doesn't want anything to do with these both two. Joining the EU is clear, the 120 days have started. Enjoy it serbia

Shame on russia.
russia was/is part of contact group and Ahtisari git the blessing from everyone on the group to work on Koosva issue.He did and came out with the only feesable solution to the problem. Now russia is against what it has agreed from day one.UK Ambasodor to UN is right, they should go ahead with vote and and thantake it from there.russia is beatting on dead horse.

Which one of the Albanians here was constantly repeating "mark my words:Russia will never use veto!"???:-)

I don't think Churkin's words could have been any stronger. 'Zero chance' of passing I believe he said. It is so refreshing to see Russia acting as the superpower that they are, and the shameful days of Yeltsin are behind them. The Russians have put to shame the US and UK, who are clearlyh on the wrong side of this debate. Kate is right, Russia is on the side of justice and international law, while the US and UK are on the side of the 'might is right' philosophy, which is no longer effective since we now have a more balanced world.

Well its just obvious to anyone with two grams of sense that Russia has decided it's not playing the game America tells it to play and has finally decided to stand up for it's own views.
So what do the Albanians on this forum really have to say? Not alot really because there are some to talk of isolation for Russia and other ridicules tryp but the fact remains; Russia will not be told what to do like the UK, the Serbs know it and so do the Albanians actually; what is going on with the UN SC is one sided and unacceptable.
Solution:
Wide autonomy for Kosovo i.e schools are Albanian and other services
EU integration with Serbia
Huge investment in Kosovo from Serbia
-
Serbs are allowed back to their homes
Remains part of Serbia formally

Its a win win situation whereas a independant Kosovo with a veto on it's doorstep is in knowones interests apart from the US.

Olf
made a heavily provocative comment above where he talked about Kosovo's economy being robbed by Serbia, that is grounds for removal because Kosovo's economy if you knew anything has been in the pits since Tito gave it autonomy and Albanian leadership took power and misued the autonomy.
So you have demonstrated the suprieme irony which is taking place in Kosovo, please get your facts right aswell because unemployment is 60% and rising from there would not really change much.
Serbia in communist times threw millions into Kosovo to develop it but the combination of poor leadership and huge birth rate meant the money could not keep up with the huge no. of Albanians being born or immigrating from Albania. Serbs, never wanting poor standards of living began to leave just as they did in WW2 for other reasons (SS), these are the reasons for the current situation and it has nothing to do with Serbia.

First of all was pleased this morning to hear that it's been made some progress regarding kosovo issue,as an europian I do not belive that russia is any help to us.Starting the war in Yugoslavia in 1991 led by milosevic and helped by russia,which then russia used to say the same thing as it says now, just then was yugoslavia and now is serbia (soverinity big deal).Russia than and now has the same objectives,its in russia's favor to see europe unsetlet,etc.Russia does not have relationship with its own ex republics ...
When Milosevic was torturing civilians of yugoslavia and later kosovans the question is who supported sirbia the ony country against the world of course russia.Europians we better steak together and russia you stay at your place and give your own people freedom.

John2,

Yes the Cold War is back and contributors like Kate and Dragan already took side as cheerleaders of Russia.
And yes the blackmailing of Europe by Russia already started. This is a wake up call to Western Europe. Poland, the Czech republik and the Baltic countries always knew what kind of country Russia is.
Contrary to their intent the Russians are making Europe a big favor. They are going to help the Europeens to reach a bigger cohasion and unity.

Dear Olf, don’t in any case underestimate housewives, especially pensioners in Serbia because they make up more then 70 % of overall Serbian population. Kate is “right; Russia protects global peace and security etc, let mention Chechnya, 15 years now it is sample of security, prosperity and what else…
Kosova has become at the same time a clear indicator on who is who. i.e. Greece, and some other who think that US should change its role in global issues; or what they’d like more is US to disappear at all. Thanks God; Serbia will very soon “become” EU member (to jest) became decision – making factor, and it will never vote any resolution regarding Kosova. Imagine, Serbia free of the problem called Kosova.
But what is relaxing – there is a guy named Canadien, who has discovered that average Albanians aren’t informed about…otherwise they will wide open hands hugging autonomy. Ups, but we (Albanians) have already been acquainted by credible Serbians what the “wide” autonomy was. I see – we are a bunch of bad pupils….we never learn anything. In the end – current Russia’s stance is nothing but delusion. Tell me where else had Russia made any decision in global issues? Russia has come in the stage thanks to Serbia’s stupid politics.

Kosova's economic decline is a result of Serbian merciless exploitation. Comments about Serbia 'pouring millions' in kosova only reveal the Serb attitude for what's to come if we remain in Serbia. Posters here have exhausted all their phantasy describing what a paradise Kosova was under Serbia. Do you then wonder why we cannot even think about staying in Serbia?! Let's part and you can live in your beautiful dream of victimhood. Insulting the victims of Serbian oppression is nothing surprising and only serves as a warning to those who tend to forget what we're dealing with. Stay with principled and democratic Russia, but somehow I don't believe any of you has any appetite to go and live there.

Kate writes:” thank goodness that Russia is actually protecting the global peace” . Russia has always observed the treaties that they signed. President Carter writes in his recent book that US has broken every nuclear treaty that they have signed since WWII.

The integrity of US and UK has been seriously eroded by the quagmire of Iraq. In fact foreign policy dictated by the US has in general been a disaster. Why not look at some other opinions for a change. The US and UK might learn something.

Dear all,
I just wanted to say that now Serbia is really in strange situation, they even do not know what really is going to happen, they should be aware that Serbia belongs to Eruopian continent and should think to be part of EU. The problem is that Russia is using Serbia as a tool to achive other objectives. If really Russia does not want to cooperate in Contact Group this means that the world now is going to be divided in two parts, but for Serbia is not good to be far away from EU. So Serbia now should take care what is going to do with their future. Kosovo in one way or other must be independent country, if no then all the other countries of the world have to accept Russia as a ruler and WORLD SUPERPOWER, what is not true.
Conclusion: Balkanians think it over and give peace to suffer nations and let Kosova and Serbia to have future in EU.

Dear kate
i feel like a professor at thesis markings when i have to wipe the fog from your glasses so you can better view the situation.
"thank goodness that Russia is actually protecting the global peace" You are talking a country that has no connection with kosovo, a country that agreed to appoint Ahtisari with the contact group, a country that continues to boycott EU procedures for self interests. I am ashamed that you claim to be a concerned EU citizen that doesn't listen to your own representatives. I am pretty sure that the EU's intentions are for the independence.
You say you are woried about precedents and such, You mean the ones that already happened in USSR, Yugoslavia, but the serbs nationalist are to proud to give it to albania speaking majority?
Kate please when you write, Show your EU side not your nationalistic links.

Vuk,

most of olf's comments are only written to provoke anti-albanian comments in order to portrait oneself as a victim and "the Serbs" as the villains.

if one of those who are provoking here would mention the real reasons for Kosovo´s economical underdevelopement, like their criminal clan-structures based on brutal force and intimidation of even the own poeple, I would have read him with more care.

even if Mr.Burns says a single line ( without any prospect of keeping what is promised, like so often lately) they start partying and being sarcastic, without realizing that they are being played with.

Heh, no independence. No vote or Vote + VETO and even if some countries recognize u, u r still Serbia proper. One of the best days of my life.

lucky bunny

I/m just trying to bring some sense and correct the incorrect data to some of the posters in here.
We/they/all know what the end result is" Kosova is going to be independent", but we like to exchange the views.
lucky bunny

I/m just trying to bring some sense and correct the incorrect data to some of the posters in here.
We/they/all know what the end result is" Kosova is going to be independent", but we like to exchange the views.
Posting of Vuk just reconfirms that Serbs like him cant stand Albanians just because they are Albanians. Vuk, I don’t come here to provoke anyone but to bring facts. Facts, truth hurts. People of Serbia are being faced in everyday life with them. You care to suggest Milosheviq regime solution still, but I believe that Serbians will reject them and you as well.

Jovan, you’re right when you say that Kosova underdevelopment is a result of discriminatory eco-politics of Belgrade since 80’s. You are right about some criminal elements in Kosova economy but the same thing applies to Serbia too.
After all, since 99 Kosova has reached a satisfactory or batter said, excepted level of Economical development.

As for the Serb diaspora, hopeless as the Belgrade failed politicians. These guys(unlike the Serbs in Serbia proper)still believe in their failed politicians, though cant do much about it. Some people just never learn a lesson. They care to suggest to their fellow Serbians in Serbia to oppose the US and EU solution and to go with Russia. Of course that they do that, they don’t live in Serbia. They live in US and EU, safe with good jobs and salaries, if something goes wrong in Serbia they just say “sorry” or not even that, and carry on with their normal life’s …

Here is a new scenario that most of you have not thought about.

EU is sinere in wanting to break Kosovo from Serbia.

EU brings Serbia in their fold.

EU tells Kosovo that it needs to come up to standards and fulfill specific obligations in order to join EU, knowing full well that not in a million years will these obligations and standards be fulfilled thereby cutting off 2 million Muslims from entering EU.

With Serbia keeping Kosovo, EU must take the Muslims if it takes Serbia.

Stevan T

This is Cold War all over again. Now everyone has to choose sides... Albanians, Serbs, Greeks... If Europe allows Russia to blackmail it now that it is 15% dependent on Russian energy, imagine what will happen when this dependency is 60%! It is better to confront the Russians now and clear out things. 15% can be sustained, albeit with problems. If dependence reaches higher numbers, we might just as well start learning russian. Thank God that US will not give in and neither the countries that know russia well (poland, Czechs, Baltic countries...)

Dear Kate,

"Why not just jump to the end game and put together a proper resolution which can be agreed by all members?"

The only "small" problem is, where such a splendid plan is dug up from? Russians or Serbs are to come up with something?

"thank goodness that Russia is actually protecting the global peace and security framework, the integrity of national borders"

Russia has a very nice history of doing just that, just ask any non-Russian Baltic or Finnish person, for example.

Hasan, "…'pouring millions' in kosova…"

that fact is easy to check. As a least developed region of ex - YU, Kosovo was main beneficiary of the fond for underdeveloped regions of the YU federation. All republics contributed proportionally to their wealth.

Have you ever compared quality of life and living standards in Kosovo during the SFRJ days with Albania of the same period? (Considering the fact that in Albania Albanians were free to organize as they wished without interference from the Serbs it was certainly paradise, or maybe not?)

Some pretend europeans here seem to ignore the fact that Russia has been contaminating my country with radioactive material and is refusing even to discuss the evidence, whose trail leads straight to Kremlin. What else are we to expect from Russia? That's not a behavior you expect from a normal country. It is turning into a rogue state.

Any money that Serbia did invest in Kosova went for colonization programmes, to build houses and property for the Serbian ethnic minority and to settle more Serbs into the region, to build churches, remove Albanians from Kosova, to maintain an army, a police state and a security apparatus as well as fight off various rebellions. Police states tend to be expensive and that's why Kosova was a money pit, not because Serbia tried to raise the standard of living for the majority of the population.

In the same time the natural wealth of the province was regularly plundered away, the macro-economic decisions were made in Belgrade, Kosova's minerals were paying for some 20% of Yugoslavia's state budget and yet the province languished as the poorest in Yugoslavia. These were exactely the issues raised by the student protests of 1981 in Prishtina. Autonomy in Kosova was historically tested and failed.

BALKAN a nice name for a country? You write “Russia is using Serbia as a tool to achive other objectives”., and what exactly are they trying to achieve? Peace through unilateral, bi-lateral, or multi lateral agreements or did they just resume their role as the policeman of Europe that they held after the Napoleonic Wars? Or is there objective preservation of their own unity which is under attack since the Reds fought the Whites after WWI? Balkan I see in your post the stereotype of the Russians and the Slavs as people with a “dark side”. Mr. Balkan professor tell your students to think, think, and think, read, read, and read, analyze, analyze, and analyze, question, question and question but first take your own advice and you will be amazed how quickly the fog lifts and you find yourself in sunshine.

ADRIANO I did not realize that Kate was your student. As her professor you should encourage her to question rather than telling her how to think. You write that Russia has “no connection with Kosovo. As a professor you should know better. Russia has over 150 ethnic groups within its borders and that gives her a very real connection with Kosovo. There are too many would be “Tin Pot” dictators who want a nation to rule. The precedent has nothing to do with the breakup of USSR and everything to do with religious and political zealots who care nothing about you or me or our families as long as they have a seat at the table.

right so.


international law mustn´t get an issue of "dealing".

it´s not quite complimentary for the french foreign-policy if that is the way France wants to act internationally.

...and finally, only the Albanians can say "shame on Russia" since they themselves are the side that is acting in a shameful way.
( don´t wanna mention the beating of a 74-year old woman in Priština a few weeks ago, - no Albanian here condemned it although I urged them to do so - or all those burnt down churches and cemeteries - everyone with eyes can see what Albanians are doing while shamelessly calling it "liberation".

it´s like in " 1984 " ... war is peace,freedom is slavery, ignorance is strenght and in this "unique case" independence is theft.

If EU takes over after 120 days with or without resollution. Which it probably will, then, the game is over for Serbia and Russia. US and dozens of EU countries are determined to recognize Kosova's independence. Russia's angering of the US and the west will in the end play in favor of Kosova independence.

Adriano - I have no nationalistic links as I have said many times.

"i feel like a professor at thesis markings"

Perhaps if you tried a little harder, Professor Adriano, you could be even more patronising.

Walter, about kates comment, it is a double standard that she claims Russia is boycotting the Eu's will and calling it holding up International Peace. As for Russia being involved with Kosovo, they have done nothing to the scale or America, England, France, Germany, Austria,Italy,Greece, New Zealand, Scandinavia and many others that have contributed into realising that Kosovo needs a new direction. Russians sold arms in Kosovo and left.
And kate i am sorry for sounding patronizing but i seriously dont think you want to ask the right questions, such as why the former USSR country's don't have good relations with Russia, And why the old members of Yugoslavia would never want to have anything in common with Serbia? It is simple and clear in my judgement and in the face of the EU. The politicians in Serbia are extensions from Russia, i mean it was the Russians who supported their predecessors crimes in the Yugoslav block.
Anyway history short, i am not here to convince anybody because the main people who are in charged saw raw evidence and none of this manipulated argument that are often repeated here.
I just ask again to write with a sober mind. Most of the people who write in this site i think are Serb diaspora or Kosovo locals. The worst thing about the diaspora seems to be that all of them are in country's who support Independence, Same with the Kosovo population. Now I understand why there are frequent manipulated arguments from the Serbs side, No ground to hold on to.

Under article 27 of the UN Charter decisions in the 15-member Security Council on all substantive matters—for example, a decision calling for direct measures related to the settlement of a dispute— require the affirmative votes of nine members. A negative vote—a veto—by a permanent member prevents adoption of a proposal, even if it has received the required number of affirmative votes. Abstention is not regarded as a veto despite the wording of the Charter. Since 1984, the numbers have been: China, two; France, three; Russia/USSR, four; the United Kingdom, 10; and the United States, 43.
Please tell me who the World's REAL obstructionist is? Who wants things IT'S way, or no way.

Adriano:

You said to kate, "...i seriously dont think you want to ask the right questions, such as... why the old members of Yugoslavia would never want to have anything in common with Serbia?"

What exactly are you talking about?? You mean like Serbia, economically, being called the Balkan Tiger, or Serbia's success in major sports on the world's stage, or Belgrade's extraordinary nigthlife and beautiful women, or the Eurovision 2007 Championship, or Serbia's growing reputation in worldly diplomacy coming as a direct result its spirited resistance to the on-going attempted land-grab of Kosovo? Should I continue? None of the former Yugoslav republics can boast these achievements. I don't think it makes Serbs any more important than any other nationality of Yugoslavia, it's just that you made a curious remark that lacks something called substantiation.

It is ironic that the Albanians are fighting so hard to get supervised independence because however unlikely it is, even if they get it, they will never get full independence. Kosovo will belong to NATO and the EU forever, so several years later a fight for independence will start all over again except this time it will be called TRUE INDPENDECE. The sad thing is that no one alive today in Kosovo will ever taste true independence not in the next 75 years or more. The alternative is supervised broad autonomy which is the closet the Albanians will ever get to "true independence" .

Stevan T,

Who are you kidding? If EU administers Kosova, their own administrators will try to fulfil EU's acquired conditions. If they fail, that would ruin EU's reputation. I'd say Kosova will become a member of EU lot faster than Serbia. It's the politics, not Economy anymore!

France has proven to be against a number of EU member states agreeances.

So, who do you believe, someone as small as France or as large as Russia?

Russia's position has proven to be a powerful one, particularly with the recent meeting of Putin & bush in ME - all because Russian oil, one can only imagine, but nonetheless, you don't see France's hiearchy going to the States.

Independence will not happen & KosovO will remain a part of Serbia.

Peter, I was at least one of them that I said russia will not veto the resolution. But I never though in milion years that russia is so stupid.
One thing Peter, I am still right because resolution has not gone for vote for russia to use veto powers, all russia is saying that they do not agree with resolution, that is all so far. So can you tell when did russio veto the resolution, becasue I have no such knowledge.

Destan Belaxhia,

Do you ever read, research and inquire your information outside a Pristina cafe? Your remark "I'd say Kosova will become a member of EU lot faster than Serbia. It's the politics, not Economy anymore!"

Kosovo is a criminal haven, it has 70% unemployment, 50% of the people over the age of 20 don't even have basic American equivalent high school completed, there is very few skilled laborers there. These are the ingredients according to you to enter the EU? As for independence, you don't have it! Just check any map printed anywhere in the world. You will not have it, its pretty clear to anyone with any common sense.

“If EU administers Kosova, their own administrators will try to fulfil EU's acquired conditions. (Destan Belaxhia, 19. July 2007 00:41)”

Destan is that why Bosnia is so close to EU membership now?

The reality is once the status of Kosovo is resolved you will have to sacrifice much and work very hard to compete against larger Western countries. Are you ready? Do you have a plan already?