“Medak Pocket victims were not civilians”

«They were all armed, in service of the Serb paramilitaries and they actively fought there...»

I am not sure of this. Scott Taylor who is a Canadian journalist was there and wrote a book about this, based on what Canadian soldiers told him.. Young Serb girls were raped, tied to a chair and burned in their homes. I do not belive that they were 'paramilitaries'. Atrocities and war crimes happened there, perpetrated by Croat soldiers or thugs that were drunk. I am sure that this would be proven. The generals should have put under arrest those who perpetrated such acts, and they did not. So, now, let them pay for what their 'soldiers' did.

Mario,
How many street and market squares can we find in Croatia named after Ante Starcevic, inspiration for Ustashe? Many. That is hardly condemning Croatian crimes if the proto-fascist worshipped by butchers from WW2 is feted in this way in the modern day, is it? What is that money in your pocket? A kuna? Say, that's the same name of the currency last used by Croatian fascists in WWW2. I see, you 'condemn' them by using the precise name they used for their money for your money. What's with the flag? Oh, clever, you reverse the pattern on the sahovica and that 'condemns' the butcherous Ustashe in some way. I wonder why the Germans did not reverse the swastika after WW2 and hope nobody noticed. Could ethnic Serbs in Croatia actually get citizenship under Tudjman? Or were they treated like second class citizens? You know the answer.

As for Americans giving rights to Bin Laden and his followers. You can see that Hashim Thaci is involved in politics in Kosovo. His terrorist group was partly funded by drugs and also by Bin Laden. Of course the American general public don't know who their government is dealing with in Kosovo and would go crazy at George Bush if a major TV network pointed this out to them. At the moment, America is backing a Bin Laden buddy. Going back to 1995, Bin Laden got a passport from the Bosnian government. Who were buddies and brother in arms of the Bosnian government? The Croats. When you mention Bin Laden, you have to remember that he hates Serbs and he hates Americans.

No doubt the 84 year old blind woman was an expert shot with an RPG. Well done to the Croatian forces for neutralizing this threat to the Homeland.

(for those none native english speakers out there I am being sarcastic)

Mario how many concerts in Serbia do you see where the entire crowd is giving a fascist salute. Croatia's current problem is ustashe like you who deny any wrongdoing by Croatia, pretending that Croatia was the helpless victim.

Come on, own up. Who is masquerading as Victor?

Sorry Victor - I just couldn't resist!

On a serious note about a serious topic I do actually support your original comment. And I would no matter what ethnicity the perpetrator or the victim. People who do this sort of thing are not soldiers - they are beneath contempt.

Kate,

I was scared for a while. I thought you were serious. I agree that men, especially soldiers, who commit crimes against civilians don't even deserve to be called humans. Animals do not push females into intercourses without their consent. Men who behave likewise are beyond animal level.

Mario,

What an interesting way of condemning Croatian War Crimes. Can you explain why Croatia is forbidden to punish Serbian Killers? Is it possibly because there are no Serbs left in Croatia to punish?

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the Croat-Bosniak war. I've been to Mostar personally so I'm fully aware the devastation inflicted upon the Bosniaks by the Croatians. Would you like to condemn those crimes in a similar fashion?

The reality is the crimes of the Croatian government under Tudjman were extremely similar to what Milosevic was doing. Neither were acceptable and both should be condemned strongly. The reality is the Serbs knew Tudjman's plan was to finish the Ustashe dream of expelling our population from Croatia and that is exactly what happened during Operation Storm.

Victor, thank you for your compassion towards our victims of war crimes. It looks as though I may have been completely wrong about you and I apologize for that. You may want to take a closer look at the Croat-Bosniak conflict. I personally believe that the Croatians were just as guilty as the Serbs for what happened.

As far as labeling the people in that region combatants, that is pretty offensive.

In the Nassir Oric case, the ICTY ruled that it was the civilians in the Srebrenica area that were responsible for the "wanton destruction" of Serbian villages and therefore Oric was not guilty of that crime because civilians committed the crimes for which he was accused.

Also notice that the ICTY and the ICJ condemned the Srebrenica massacre as a Genocide committed against civilians.

So even if the civilians of Medak Pocket engaged in wanton destruction or other acts of violence, they still can not be labeled as combatants. They must be labeled as civilians if we are to follow precedent in the evaluation of responsibility for war crimes in the Balkans.

The reality of the Balkans is everyone in those areas of intense combat gets caught up in the fighting in one way or another. I know teenage girls who fought at times.

The reality is those Serbs who committed grave crimes in Srebrenica had the exact same attitude these accused Croatians have and to use that sort of justification to murder civilians is deplorable and simply wrong.

Mario, most of those 20,000 people in Croatia killed were not Croats, but Serbs of Croatia. You ignore the nazi like statements made by Tudjman in the late 80s and early 90s. The Serbs had no choice to do anything that what they did, as another genocide seemed likely to happen. It started with the new croat constitution - stripping away serbian rights to make them second class citizens, the first step to genocide.

PB - It was me! Victor and Kate are one and the same!

For Croatian crimes we Croatians all condemn them. You ignore Serbia complicity with War. Hate towards Croatia helped you to grow it to the never before remembered heights of violence, hunger for blood, killing. Your peace-loving, tax-paying Serbian murderers, mass slaughtered 20,000 Croats more than 4000 are still missing and the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands more. I WONDER IF AMERICANS WOULD EVER GIVE ANY RIGHTS TO BIN LADEN AND HIS FOLLOWERS. Croatia is forbidden to punish the Serbian killers for thousands of deaths, victims never revenged, evil never punished..in front oh the mankind. IN SERBIA THE KILLINGS ARE JUSTIFIED, THE TRUTH IS FORBIDDEN AND HIDEN, THE LIES LIVE.

Well, it may be partially true that some victims were non-registered civilian combatants. This took place quite commonly in the Balkan wars of the 1990s.

This reminds me of the Bosnian Book of the Dead project in which 60% of all victims listed were soldiers based on their status within military databases-however without actual cause of death being taken into consideration.

The result of this is that members of armies and police units often died of human rights violations as prisoners or away from direct battle and were still registered as soldiers. Conversely, regular citizens who picked up weapons to defend their homes and families in the face of an advancing enemy would be reporteed as civilians-irrespective of circumstance.

With new databases due to be made in Croatia and Serbia a new chance can present itself to clarify such matters. It is really hard to do so objectively and effectively however. We all know that a regular murder trial related to a peacetime incident in a democratic country can take years to complete at the cost of millions of dollars- and even then evidence can be inconclusive. In the Balkans people are trying to peice together thousands of cases occurring in a time of chaos and unfortunately many rely on their own predjudices to come to conclusions.

Actually Stevo, you are wrong on many accounts. Firstly Tudjman sent a request for citizenship to everyone in Croatia. Secondly kuna currency goes back hundreds of years as croatian currency. and the flag...well perhaps u should research what ustasa flag was first but if you are referring to the checkered coat of arms....that again goes back a thousand years. Perhaps you should do some research and not take what your parents have perhaps told you, who were told my their parents etc because thats the only way I can explain your lack of knowledge.

Daniel, the Swastika is also incredibly ancient, yet for the vast majority of the World it symbolizes what the Nazi regime did to the Jews.

I'm truly sorry the Ustashe tainted your ancient crest by turning it into a symbol of oppression and genocide, but that's the reality of the situation. When we Serbs see that flag, we can not but help think of Jasenovac and the Ustashe. That's like telling a Black person they shouldn't find the word N*gger offensive because it originally only meant a dark skinned person. It is not up to the oppressors to decide what the victims should or should not find offensive.

The same of course goes for the Kuna.

The reality is, the combination of all of these symbols and the rhetoric coming from those in power most certainly caused great fear in our population that another Genocide like Jasenovac was right about to happen. Even the UN opposed independence for Croatia at the time because of their poor respect for Human rights.

Can you imagine how the average Jew would react in a similar situation? Faced with Genocide and knowing what happened in WWII, I think most would pick up a gun and fight for their very lives. Civilians protecting their homes does not make them combatants. As I indicated above, even the civilians from the Srebrenica area whom the ICTY fully placed the blame for the wanton destruction of Serbian villages and the murder of Serbian civilians were not considered combatants, but civilians outside the control of the military and Oric's forces, even though they followed his forces around, before during and after his attacks.

To use the opposite logic in this case would be just another sign that the entire process is bias against the Serbs as a people and that our victims are not important to the international community.

To be honest Daniel, your government did not need to seek independence in such a way as to install such great fear in the Serbian population. The Croatian government used exactly the same policies against the Serbian population as Milosevic employed in Kosovo against the Albanians. Its simply shameful.

My people and your people are both just as guilty for what happened in the 90's. The difference is, we Serbs are much farther ahead in accepting our role in what happened. You still try to diminish your role in what happened in WWII. You try to blame Tito's violent slaughter of the remaining elements of the Ustashe on the Serbs when we all know for a fact that Tito was always firmly in charge of everything that happened in Yugoslavia. If Tito was a Serbian stooge as you try to claim, why did Kosovo and Vojvodina get autonomous status but not Krajina?

For Croatian crimes we Croatians all condemn them. You ignore Serbia complicity with War. Hate towards Croatia helped you to grow it to the never before remembered heights of violence, hunger for blood, killing. Your peace-loving, tax-paying Serbian murderers, mass slaughtered 20,000 Croats more than 4000 are still missing and the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands more. I WONDER IF AMERICANS WOULD EVER GIVE ANY RIGHTS TO BIN LADEN AND HIS FOLLOWERS. Croatia is forbidden to punish the Serbian killers for thousands of deaths, victims never revenged, evil never punished..in front oh the mankind. IN SERBIA THE KILLINGS ARE JUSTIFIED, THE TRUTH IS FORBIDDEN AND HIDEN, THE LIES LIVE.

«They were all armed, in service of the Serb paramilitaries and they actively fought there...»

I am not sure of this. Scott Taylor who is a Canadian journalist was there and wrote a book about this, based on what Canadian soldiers told him.. Young Serb girls were raped, tied to a chair and burned in their homes. I do not belive that they were 'paramilitaries'. Atrocities and war crimes happened there, perpetrated by Croat soldiers or thugs that were drunk. I am sure that this would be proven. The generals should have put under arrest those who perpetrated such acts, and they did not. So, now, let them pay for what their 'soldiers' did.

Come on, own up. Who is masquerading as Victor?

PB - It was me! Victor and Kate are one and the same!

Mario,
How many street and market squares can we find in Croatia named after Ante Starcevic, inspiration for Ustashe? Many. That is hardly condemning Croatian crimes if the proto-fascist worshipped by butchers from WW2 is feted in this way in the modern day, is it? What is that money in your pocket? A kuna? Say, that's the same name of the currency last used by Croatian fascists in WWW2. I see, you 'condemn' them by using the precise name they used for their money for your money. What's with the flag? Oh, clever, you reverse the pattern on the sahovica and that 'condemns' the butcherous Ustashe in some way. I wonder why the Germans did not reverse the swastika after WW2 and hope nobody noticed. Could ethnic Serbs in Croatia actually get citizenship under Tudjman? Or were they treated like second class citizens? You know the answer.

As for Americans giving rights to Bin Laden and his followers. You can see that Hashim Thaci is involved in politics in Kosovo. His terrorist group was partly funded by drugs and also by Bin Laden. Of course the American general public don't know who their government is dealing with in Kosovo and would go crazy at George Bush if a major TV network pointed this out to them. At the moment, America is backing a Bin Laden buddy. Going back to 1995, Bin Laden got a passport from the Bosnian government. Who were buddies and brother in arms of the Bosnian government? The Croats. When you mention Bin Laden, you have to remember that he hates Serbs and he hates Americans.

Actually Stevo, you are wrong on many accounts. Firstly Tudjman sent a request for citizenship to everyone in Croatia. Secondly kuna currency goes back hundreds of years as croatian currency. and the flag...well perhaps u should research what ustasa flag was first but if you are referring to the checkered coat of arms....that again goes back a thousand years. Perhaps you should do some research and not take what your parents have perhaps told you, who were told my their parents etc because thats the only way I can explain your lack of knowledge.

No doubt the 84 year old blind woman was an expert shot with an RPG. Well done to the Croatian forces for neutralizing this threat to the Homeland.

(for those none native english speakers out there I am being sarcastic)

Sorry Victor - I just couldn't resist!

On a serious note about a serious topic I do actually support your original comment. And I would no matter what ethnicity the perpetrator or the victim. People who do this sort of thing are not soldiers - they are beneath contempt.

Kate,

I was scared for a while. I thought you were serious. I agree that men, especially soldiers, who commit crimes against civilians don't even deserve to be called humans. Animals do not push females into intercourses without their consent. Men who behave likewise are beyond animal level.

Mario how many concerts in Serbia do you see where the entire crowd is giving a fascist salute. Croatia's current problem is ustashe like you who deny any wrongdoing by Croatia, pretending that Croatia was the helpless victim.

Mario,

What an interesting way of condemning Croatian War Crimes. Can you explain why Croatia is forbidden to punish Serbian Killers? Is it possibly because there are no Serbs left in Croatia to punish?

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the Croat-Bosniak war. I've been to Mostar personally so I'm fully aware the devastation inflicted upon the Bosniaks by the Croatians. Would you like to condemn those crimes in a similar fashion?

The reality is the crimes of the Croatian government under Tudjman were extremely similar to what Milosevic was doing. Neither were acceptable and both should be condemned strongly. The reality is the Serbs knew Tudjman's plan was to finish the Ustashe dream of expelling our population from Croatia and that is exactly what happened during Operation Storm.

Victor, thank you for your compassion towards our victims of war crimes. It looks as though I may have been completely wrong about you and I apologize for that. You may want to take a closer look at the Croat-Bosniak conflict. I personally believe that the Croatians were just as guilty as the Serbs for what happened.

As far as labeling the people in that region combatants, that is pretty offensive.

In the Nassir Oric case, the ICTY ruled that it was the civilians in the Srebrenica area that were responsible for the "wanton destruction" of Serbian villages and therefore Oric was not guilty of that crime because civilians committed the crimes for which he was accused.

Also notice that the ICTY and the ICJ condemned the Srebrenica massacre as a Genocide committed against civilians.

So even if the civilians of Medak Pocket engaged in wanton destruction or other acts of violence, they still can not be labeled as combatants. They must be labeled as civilians if we are to follow precedent in the evaluation of responsibility for war crimes in the Balkans.

The reality of the Balkans is everyone in those areas of intense combat gets caught up in the fighting in one way or another. I know teenage girls who fought at times.

The reality is those Serbs who committed grave crimes in Srebrenica had the exact same attitude these accused Croatians have and to use that sort of justification to murder civilians is deplorable and simply wrong.

Mario, most of those 20,000 people in Croatia killed were not Croats, but Serbs of Croatia. You ignore the nazi like statements made by Tudjman in the late 80s and early 90s. The Serbs had no choice to do anything that what they did, as another genocide seemed likely to happen. It started with the new croat constitution - stripping away serbian rights to make them second class citizens, the first step to genocide.

Well, it may be partially true that some victims were non-registered civilian combatants. This took place quite commonly in the Balkan wars of the 1990s.

This reminds me of the Bosnian Book of the Dead project in which 60% of all victims listed were soldiers based on their status within military databases-however without actual cause of death being taken into consideration.

The result of this is that members of armies and police units often died of human rights violations as prisoners or away from direct battle and were still registered as soldiers. Conversely, regular citizens who picked up weapons to defend their homes and families in the face of an advancing enemy would be reporteed as civilians-irrespective of circumstance.

With new databases due to be made in Croatia and Serbia a new chance can present itself to clarify such matters. It is really hard to do so objectively and effectively however. We all know that a regular murder trial related to a peacetime incident in a democratic country can take years to complete at the cost of millions of dollars- and even then evidence can be inconclusive. In the Balkans people are trying to peice together thousands of cases occurring in a time of chaos and unfortunately many rely on their own predjudices to come to conclusions.

Daniel, the Swastika is also incredibly ancient, yet for the vast majority of the World it symbolizes what the Nazi regime did to the Jews.

I'm truly sorry the Ustashe tainted your ancient crest by turning it into a symbol of oppression and genocide, but that's the reality of the situation. When we Serbs see that flag, we can not but help think of Jasenovac and the Ustashe. That's like telling a Black person they shouldn't find the word N*gger offensive because it originally only meant a dark skinned person. It is not up to the oppressors to decide what the victims should or should not find offensive.

The same of course goes for the Kuna.

The reality is, the combination of all of these symbols and the rhetoric coming from those in power most certainly caused great fear in our population that another Genocide like Jasenovac was right about to happen. Even the UN opposed independence for Croatia at the time because of their poor respect for Human rights.

Can you imagine how the average Jew would react in a similar situation? Faced with Genocide and knowing what happened in WWII, I think most would pick up a gun and fight for their very lives. Civilians protecting their homes does not make them combatants. As I indicated above, even the civilians from the Srebrenica area whom the ICTY fully placed the blame for the wanton destruction of Serbian villages and the murder of Serbian civilians were not considered combatants, but civilians outside the control of the military and Oric's forces, even though they followed his forces around, before during and after his attacks.

To use the opposite logic in this case would be just another sign that the entire process is bias against the Serbs as a people and that our victims are not important to the international community.

To be honest Daniel, your government did not need to seek independence in such a way as to install such great fear in the Serbian population. The Croatian government used exactly the same policies against the Serbian population as Milosevic employed in Kosovo against the Albanians. Its simply shameful.

My people and your people are both just as guilty for what happened in the 90's. The difference is, we Serbs are much farther ahead in accepting our role in what happened. You still try to diminish your role in what happened in WWII. You try to blame Tito's violent slaughter of the remaining elements of the Ustashe on the Serbs when we all know for a fact that Tito was always firmly in charge of everything that happened in Yugoslavia. If Tito was a Serbian stooge as you try to claim, why did Kosovo and Vojvodina get autonomous status but not Krajina?