"France opposes Kosovo's partition"

"Kouchner also said he believed that Kosovo, under the international administration, was a “success story”.

What a surprise he says that... O wait, Kouchner was the first UN boss in Kosovo. Makes his judgement of the UN-work over there really objective.

Easy for Koucher to preach lofty ideals, he doesn't have to live in fear and hatred in Kosovo.

No options should be off limits in new talks -- including autonomy, independence or partition.

The ridiculous reason for opposing partition is to create a false facade of a functioning multiethnic society, but everyone knows what a farce this is ..... its time to have a reality check.

Kate and Princip your comments about EU and Serbia’s integration into EU not tied to Kosova status was farce.

"Kouchner was in Belgrade Thursday where he warned that Serbia’s EU accession will be tied to the solving of the Kosovo status."

The question is does he support partition of the UN recognised state of Serbia?

Moreover like the Russians said do you wish to base the "rule of law" for all on sovereignity or self determination ?

Wow - Kosovo a success - imagine what he thinks is a disaster? Especially in light of the Speigel article; The Failure of the West's 'Ostrich' Policy
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,471178,00.html
To quote;
"The planned "construction of a multi-ethnic society" has "failed" and does not exist "outside the bureaucratic statements of the international community," says the report, released by the Institute for European Politics (IEP) in Berlin."
more over;

"The 124-page report blames the bleak prospects for the province's future on the UN administration, the NATO-led KFOR mission and the Europeans' "ostrich" policy. The study outlines mismanagement, corruption, organizational chaos and "organized crime gangs," which have infiltrated significant parts of the KFOR staff. The role of the United States is also deemed counterproductive: The IEP accuses Washington of being involved in helping criminals to flee, "sometimes openly" hindering European investigations into war crimes and training former KLA fighters -- an "obvious" breach of the UN resolution"

- now if that is 'success' for Kouchner one can only wonder what a failure would be!!!

So Kouchner opposes Kosovo partition but he is all for the partition of Serbia and the creation of greater albania?? We can see right through your hypocrisy Mr. Kouchner, and you are not fooling anyone, including the Russians and Chinese.

HAHAHHA, what a joke by Kouchner. Who is he trying to fool - "international admin a success" !!!!

And no partition??

It would be intersting to know why Europe is so intent on not allowing partition to take place. It's obvious why the US doesn't want it to happen - Bondsteel.

Is it because of the fabled mineral wealth in the north where the Serbs are?? I've heard varying estimates of it worth ranging from a few billion to tens, even hundreds of billions.

As an aside, it always makes me laugh when the abanians say they need Trepca for their economy even though it is in the Serbian part of Kosovo.

With that logic, maybe Croatia should invade all the countries lining the Med so that it can lay claim to the extensive fishing rights, or maybe Spain should invade southern France to acquire the fertile wine making and other agricultural industry.

Just shows what a farce this all really is and the reality of the situation - a blatant land grab by the West via the Albanians, nothing more, nothing less.

Laki - NY
Then its clear... we wont go into the EU but we will keep Kosovo.

On another point, it clearly shows the desperation of the West in the hope of getting out of the mess they made for themselves given that yesterday it was reported in the reuters article titled 'Major powers nudge Serbs, Kosovo towards partition'

""Don't expect France to propose such reshaping," he told a Belgrade newspaper. "At the very least, Belgrade and Pristina would have to agree on it. And in that case I don't see how France could oppose it," Kouchner said.

British ambassador to Serbia Steven Wordsworth took a similar line to the question earlier this week.

"Partition is not a good idea, for many reasons," Wordsworth told Serbia's Beta news agency. But he added: "If in the process of talks the two sides agree on that, that would change things.""
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1210293820070712
- here we have both the UK & French suggesting that they want partition as a way out but need Serbia to suggest partitioning their own state !!!

Clearly Kouchner the 'international community' you talked of being in the right or wrong is in a pickle to say the least and has no idea of morale compass to guide them!

Summing up the quandary that Kouchner and the 'international community' is a quote from H.G. Wells 'The Island of Doctor Moreau'
"I was alternately despairful and desperate. Once or twice
as I stood waiting there for things to accomplish themselves,
I could not resist an impulse to laugh at my miserable quandary"
- the Gordian knot can be solved so simply by upholding all that the 'IC' have signed and agreed already in the obligations of 1244 which affirms Serbia's sovereignity.

Surely the EU is about bringing wall down not creating them?

B92 left out this important quote by Kouchner…
“"Don't expect France to propose such reshaping," he told a Belgrade newspaper. "At the very least, Belgrade and Pristina would have to agree on it. And in that case I don't see how France could oppose it," Kouchner said.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071200471.html
Which is basically exactly the same as what Wordsworth said last week and what James Lyon of the ICG also stated in his blog.
In reality his announcement was a very big change in the stance of the West. Now they seem to be pushing Serbia and Kosovo to discuss the idea of partition, which no one seems to want to openly discuss.
Let’s discuss it!

Matthew, I'd say partition is going to be an inevitable outcome, if not in reality, then at least de facto, as Pristina has not, does not, and mostly likely will not have any authority north of the Ibar. No one even talks anymore of unifying Mitrovica, and the Ahtisaari Plan even noted the establishment of a university in North Mitrovica. Kosovo, more most intents, is already largely divided. As such, the natural wealth of Kosovo is still largely in the hands of the Serbs and if the Albanians want a piece of the action, they're going to have to compromise. This is probably one of the reasons why so many are opposed to partition, in that the vast wealth will be controlled by the Serbs, leave the rest of Kosovo dependent on international handouts. I'd say this is the perfect bargaining chip Belgrade/North Mitrovica can use to negotiate a better deal with Pristina. I mean let's be honest: no one speaks of how Belgrade can reestablish legitimate authority in the rest of Kosovo, and no one is considering how Pristina is going to exert loyalty from areas north of the Ibar.

Im a Serb
I am 100% against any partition of Serbian territory.

By the time that Total signs the gas deal with Gazprom France's position will be identical to Russia's.
Money talks comic book diplomacy walks.

i am glad everybody is laughing, i guess thats all you have to say. instead of criticizing the french why dont you look to the serbian side for a response? Anyway this is like a chess game that the russions say we dont need the clock, too bad you have to kings serbia and russia,

I concur 100% Mike. I personally believe the Albanian side should get concessions on Trepca. I support, as always, including both Presevo et all and Trepca as bargaining chips for some special concessions on our Historical sites such as Pec and Decani.

I do like your suggestion of allowing Pec & Decani to join with Montenegro rather then Serbia, this might be easier for Albanians to except then union with Serbia. I also think it would greatly increase the economic prospects of those two regions. Montenegro has seen incredible growth lately in the tourist industry, and that is exactly the industry that would benefit Pec & Decani the most. Relations between Montenegrins and Albanians have never been better. I think we can build on our shared history and clan system together. We also need to empathize those Albanian families that were the traditional caretakers of our holy sites. Those families need to be held up as the ideal of Serbian-Albanian cooperation. Too many people focus on the differences between our two peoples instead of looking at what we have in common. Simply put Pec & Decani would be far more successful as part of Montenegro then under Serbia, Kosovo or Albania.

I for one, actually greatly admire many aspects of Albanian culture as its nearly identical in so many ways to my Montenegro. As I've said before, I'm from a mixed clan, the Piperi, and I think those of us in that situation are best able to bridge the gap between Serbian and Albanian interests.

If the mines were on the Serbian side of Kosovo/a this issue would have been over by now. As Kostunica and his cronies would have made billions from it by now. Its because they don't have the mines that they're doing all of this. Kostunica and his cronies are chasing those billions of dollars. They could care less if the so called "full fledged" Serbian citizens of Albanian ethnicity ,as he calls them, were independent or not once he could get his ends into that money. What would he do or the Serbian state do with the "problematic" part of Kosovo/a anyway? Those "full fledged" citizens not only are not needed by Serbia but it'd be the best solution for the Serb politicians as they'd be filthy rich, and rid of the problem at the same time by separating Albanians from the mines( division of Kosovo/a)

I had some other thoughts in regards to partition. It requires some serious financial support by the major powers involved. If the EU is genuine about a true and lasting peace, they’d better take all this very seriously. The Balkans is a messy place.

So first off, I’d offer like 100.000 Euros to anyone (Serb or Albanian) left as a minority in a region. This could either be used to relocate or stay and build a good life. I can promise the amount would not exceed the price of a single Stealth Bomber, like the one shot down by Serbia for example. This might help in those regions where partition is not an easy call or is very mixed. Make being a minority in an area like winning the lottery. It will make it easier on the people who live through that, and also help to limit the number of minorities left outside their ethnic group.

I’m also considering at this moment in time some sort of special status for our Churches. Like the Vatican, or an Embassy, officially those areas are another country. They could be linked by a Subway system connected to Belgrade. That would allow us easy access and guaranteed protection. It would also have a minimal impact on Albanians living in those regions.

Right now, we have the attention of the Big Powers for whatever reason, we should take advantage of that. We need to come up with a plan together and ask them to help finance it. If it results in violence, its going to be partition anyway, and then we won’t get any help nor any respect and we both suffer and we both get set back another decade while the rest of our neighbors zoom ahead of us.

The ridiculous reason for opposing partition is to create a false facade of a functioning multiethnic society, but everyone knows what a farce this is ..... its time to have a reality check.

Mathew: "As I've said before, I'm from a mixed clan, the Piperi, and I think those of us in that situation ..."

Mathew, one day you're from Piperi, the next day from Vojvodina, yet another day you're from Bosnia. Make up your mind already! Next thing you know, you'll claim a relative in every village of ex-Yugoslavia.
You want Decani, that has 99% Albanian population to go to Montenegro? I think you forgat to ask Haradinaj if you want to give his home village away.
You want partition? Serbia gets Zvecan, Zubin Potok and Leposavic and Kosova gets Presheva, Bujanovc and Medvegja. And that's it. Fair and square. I don't care about the mines north of Ibar, but I care a lot about having a country that is not sliced up in 50 million different ways, and I care more than anything about a country that is defensable, just in case Serbia gets another take at invasion. Every Serb here keep saying that Serbia won't recognize Kosova and won't give up the idea to take it again, 10, 100, or 500 years from now. And you want us to give you access to the heart of Kosova? And whoever falls on the wrong side of the border, be it Albanian or Serb, would just have to take it and adapt like any other minority in the world, or they can pack up and leave if they don't like it. And churches should have to be like any other church in the world, they should mind their own business - religion - inside the walls of the church and not get involved in politics, diplomacy or international relations, because that is not the business of the church, their business is with God. And when they do, nobody will really care about a church sitting in the middle of nowhere, because people have more important things to do with their lives. Let Nato protect them forever, but no extraterritoriality, otherwise they would just become outposts for Serbian secret services.

happy july the 14th FRANCE

Adrian,
seeing as you undertsand the concept of integration and rule of law of the state your in and more importantly seeing as the Serbian province of Kosovo & Metohija as affirmed by 1244 means you and all ethnic Albanians are as you put it
"falls on the wrong side of the border, be it Albanian or Serb, would just have to take it and adapt like any other minority in the world, or they can pack up and leave if they don't like it"
- I hope they all just take it and like I said before learn to accept the state they are in and "conformto it"!

Adrian, what clan are you? Anyways, you see I also proposed just giving us the Church at Pec and connecting it with an underground railway. I am trying hard to find compromises that have the least negative impact on your people. Believe me, I don’t like the idea of giving up any of Kosovo, but in the interests of peace and stability I seek a compromise that we can both live with. OK, you don’t care about Trepca, some do. It should be discussed. I know Medveda only has a 30% Albanian population and Bujanovac barely has a majority. Personally, I feel that your side should give us something in return for those. Medveda especially shouldn’t be a free hand out. All that being said, you raise an interesting point, if Serbia deserves to lose Kosovo for the crimes of Milosevic, maybe Kosovo ought to lose Pec for the crimes of Haradinaj?

OK, you really want a lesson in my family history?

My wife is from Kostajnica in Bosnia, half her family is from the other side of the river in Croatian Kostajnica, part of Krajina. That’s simple enough. Right next to Jasenovac, a very bad place to be. I’ve seen some very messed up things. No one can try to tell me the Serbs weren’t victims at times, I’ve seen with my own eyes the end results of Operation Storm. My wife was only 16 when it happened. She still has night terrors. As a result, I completely sympathize with the suffering of your people and condemn all violence. I’m simply motivated by a very real concern for the safety and future of the region and the preservation of our history.

My great grandmother was a Bjeladinovic, Dalmation nobility descended from Knez Bjelan a member of the Nemanjac dynasty. I have a copy of the Venetian title for my family, the Austrians recognized us after that as well. We’ve controlled Risan since the 10th Century. We lived in the Kotor Bay Area and Dubrovnik. The Bjelandinovic’s are straight up old school Serb, no clan, not Montenegrin. The Bjeladinovic Palace is in the main square in Kotor, and you’ll find our monasteries in Kotor Bay as well, I’ve been to them. My great grandmother’s mother was a Nikolic from Novi Sad, also part of Austria at the time. Her brother was the attendant to Prince Danilo and her family founded the first library in Beograd. This was told to me by long lost cousins I tracked down in Belgrade, Dubrovnik and Risan. Its also where I got the copy of the family title and such. I spent the last 15 years trying to unravel my family history, but didn’t feel comfortable coming to the Balkans to do research until Milosevic was out of power. My quest to understand my roots created in me a great interest in history and political science, naturally enough.

I am a Popovic, my great grandfather was from Risan. According the book “Risan I Stare Risanske Porodice” and my wife’s notes on it (She’s in Bosnia right now) the Popovich’s came from Stijena Piperska – G. Orahovac – Popovi Do. The Popovich’s are Montenegrin and we do have a clan, the Piperi. Being that Popovich is my name, I consider myself Montenegrin and proud of it. I look straight up exactly like the Njegos family.

Also check out wikipedia (I know its not much of a real source, but…) Clearly lists Popovic on the list of Piperi members.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piperi_clan


Now I didn’t even go into my mother’s family at all. She’s Texan, daughter of a Baptist Holy Roller minister. That’s a great deal of fun as well, but I won’t go into at the moment.

So there you go. You have much of my background right there.

I was pretty firm on Piperi, but you know, Wiki lists Popovic’s from Orahovo as Kuci.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku%C4%8Di

That lists Popovic’s under the Drekalovići “(larger ancestral entity encompassing Montenegrins of Albanian origin descending from the Kastrioti family).”

I guess PB was right, I am Albanian, ha ha ha ha…

I don’t know, I did find one error in that book I listed. It claimed my great great grandfather came to the US with my great grandfather, and I know he came alone, I have copies of the Ellis Island paperwork.

Maybe Anthony knows, he studied all that in college.

Mathew, thanks for your family history, that was interesting. Back to the topic at hand. You propose an underground railway only for the church of Pec? That sounds like science fiction; who's going to build it, who's going to sponsor such a project, because economically it makes no sense at all. And why can't you just simply visit a church that resides in the territory of the independent Kosova, why does it have to be at any cost a part of Serbia, for you to visit it. The church will be where it always have been, where it was built and where it has its history; you can come, take a bus and visit it, pray in it and hold mass, enjoy the frescos and take pictures, and at the end of the day take a bus back or stay another day in a nice Kosovar hotel and enjoy the delicious local food. And how is this any different from what you can do today or from what you could've done at any time. What would it matter to you as a tourist or a pilgim, whether the border is over that hill or under this bridge, or any other complicated political or diplomatic arrangements for that matter? You'd be comming for the culture, history, or the religion, and these are borderless. Think of Hagia Sofia or the Orthodox Patriarchate in Instanbul. How many millions of people visit them every year. Yet Hagia Sofia is the most sacred church in Orthodoxy, smack in the heart of a muslim country, but it's not part of Greece, and none in their right mind would ask it to be. Both Greeks and Turks are very proud of it and visit and cherish it equally.
Let the security for these churches be adequate, by both NATO and international and Kosova Police. If the Kosova Police could handle so professionally a band of crazed nationalists like the Guard of Czar Lazar that had promissed to take Kosova in two hours, I think they could handle the security for any group of civilized and normal tourists or pilgrims, that don't come around to provoke and flash the three finger salute or the Serbian flag in everyone's faces, but are there to simply fulfill their spiritual needs.

Adrian Gashi wrote:
"why does it have to be at any cost a part of Serbia"

posing such a question proves that you will probably never understand it.

because is never was albanian? let´s ask the other way around:
why for heavens sake are the Albanians so eagerly trying to change borders, if it is only about "not living under serbian boot"? broad autonomy under international supervision is something Albanians cannot live with? it would be interesting for the international community to hear what is so bad about their supervision ( if not needed to achieve a greater Albania ).

Adrian,

As I stated, all that could be built for less then the price of a single stealth bomber, like the one shot down by the Serbs. The International Community is big on spending money to destroy and bomb, they should be forced to spend the same amount rebuilding everything to help both our peoples.

I do realize of course its not exactly practical. However, this is as good a place as any to throw up ideas and see what sticks.

It is a solution that would allow us to keep the head of our Church and have the least negative impact on your people. It doesn’t sound to me like you have any strong serious reservations towards the idea. My baseline for whether something should be discussed or not is would you go to war to reject it?

As far as Istanbul goes, why is it still referred to as Constantinople by most Americans? Hundreds of years later?

Jovan:
"because is never was albanian? let´s ask the other way around:
why for heavens sake are the Albanians so eagerly trying to change borders, if it is only about "not living under serbian boot"? broad autonomy under international supervision is something Albanians cannot live with? it would be interesting for the international community to hear what is so bad about their supervision ( if not needed to achieve a greater Albania )."

Jovan, America was never American until the declaration of Independence from the UK. Your proposal of autonomy would take us back some 40 years. Autonomy in Kosova was historically tested and failed. It was simply taken away when it was convinient for Serbia and its population could do nothing about it. Even with autonomy, Serbia did install a police state in Kosova and again the local population could not do anything but be subjected to it. The natural wealth of the province was regularly plundered away, the macro-economic decisions were made in Belgrade, Kosova's minerals were paying for some 20% of Yugoslavia's state budget and yet the province languished as the poorest in Yugoslavia. These were exactely the issues raised by the student protests of 1981 in Prishtina. Yes, Serbia did invest millions in Kosova, however these money were used primarily in the colonization programmes, to build houses and property for the Serbian ethnic minority and to settle more Serbs into the region, to build churches, remove Albanians from Kosova (Turkey was paid thousands of dollars for every Albanian sent to Turkey), to maintain an army, a police state and a security apparatus as well as fight off various rebellions. Yes, police states tend to be expensive and that's why Kosova was a money pit, not because Serbia tried to raise the standard of living for the majority of the population. And by leaving the majority of its population in poverty and uneducated, these programmes achieved the exact opposite of their aims of changing the ethnic structure of the province, becase the poor and the uneducated usually tend to have more children.

Why are Albanians so eagerly trying to change borders, you ask? Because borders are a man-made concept, and they should accomodate people not the other way around and because they think that borders were set arbitrarely and violently in 1912 and against the wishes of the population. Because Albanians want to have a country of their own, internationally recognized, that can enter into defense agreements with our western friends, and that will be the best guarantee for the security and safety of its population against another Serbian agresion. Because the native population wants to have this state, so that the resources of this country, and the profit of their labor go for the improvement of life and well-being of its people, rather for the agrandisment of someone else's imperial dreams.

" it would be interesting for the international community to hear what is so bad about their supervision "

The international community itself wants to get out of this supervision. Here's what's bad about it:
http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=2502&a=664639

BTW, this is one of our Palaces my family owns. Its selling for 1.200.000 Euro's, of course I don't have the money to buy out the rest of everyone's interest, so it'll probably get snatched up by the Russian mafia...

http://www.dreammontenegro.com/property.php?id=341#

Took me years to track this property down, and I only got to visit it once...

Mathew, I have no problem with churches having adequate security provided that the security of Kosova is not compromised either. I think both of these can be achieved and I think the most important measure lies at the hands of the church itself, by disentangling itself from the realm of politics and dealing strictly in religious matters.

I too like the name of Constantinople better, after all it evokes the figure of Constantine the Great, the illustrious Illyrian emperor from Nish, who set one very important cornerstone in the edifice of the western civilization, by making Christianity the official religion of the Empire.

Adrian,

We do in fact basically agree on most points and what I'm trying to do is find those areas where we can agree. Its always good to empathize what we agree on first, and then move onto the more difficult issues.

Trust me, I am not a big fan of Religion in politics. I'm extremely secular and quite distrustful of the way religion has been used in the past to justify violence and oppression the world over. The issue is religion for Serbs and Albanians is a very different thing. Albanians can be Muslim, Catholic, Orthodox or whatever, you're still an Albanian regardless.

For Serbs its different. Serbs who convert to Islam become Bosniaks, Catholic they become Croatian. Its strange, silly and outdated. Hence why I miss Yugoslavia so much.

So unfortunately for us, separating religion from ethnic identity is simply impossible.

Hence why historically our Churches hold such meaning for us and our identity.

Believe me when I say I want your people to live in safety and to rule themselves in whatever way they feel is best. I truly do, or I wouldn't spend so much time trying to find solutions acceptable to both sides. I know your people suffered abuses in the past, I do not deny that, nor do I think its fair that so many Albanians live outside of Albania.

I do feel strongly about Serbian history and culture and Kosovo plays a very important role in our belief system and in the identity of what a Serb is.

I also believe that if these feelings of the Serbs are not taken into account, it will only setup the region for some future conflict. We NEED a solution that allows the average MODERATE Serb to feel as though Kosovo is still a part of Serbia and that our historical sites that represent the very foundation of our civilization still belong to us. The reality is, only a very small portion of Kosovo is really all that contentious. Probably 95% of the Albanian majority areas can be let go of without it becoming a future problem and I'm all in support of that.

Partition is clearly the way forward, but now is the time for moderates on both sides of the divide to step forward and offer suggestions that might possibly make this a sustainable and stable solution for the region as a whole going forward. The price for failure is high, not just for us, but for the EU as a whole.

Just to be funny, I like to refer to Istabul as Byzantium (its original name).

Easy for Koucher to preach lofty ideals, he doesn't have to live in fear and hatred in Kosovo.

No options should be off limits in new talks -- including autonomy, independence or partition.

The ridiculous reason for opposing partition is to create a false facade of a functioning multiethnic society, but everyone knows what a farce this is ..... its time to have a reality check.

Kate and Princip your comments about EU and Serbia’s integration into EU not tied to Kosova status was farce.

"Kouchner was in Belgrade Thursday where he warned that Serbia’s EU accession will be tied to the solving of the Kosovo status."

The question is does he support partition of the UN recognised state of Serbia?

Moreover like the Russians said do you wish to base the "rule of law" for all on sovereignity or self determination ?

Wow - Kosovo a success - imagine what he thinks is a disaster? Especially in light of the Speigel article; The Failure of the West's 'Ostrich' Policy
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,471178,00.html
To quote;
"The planned "construction of a multi-ethnic society" has "failed" and does not exist "outside the bureaucratic statements of the international community," says the report, released by the Institute for European Politics (IEP) in Berlin."
more over;

"The 124-page report blames the bleak prospects for the province's future on the UN administration, the NATO-led KFOR mission and the Europeans' "ostrich" policy. The study outlines mismanagement, corruption, organizational chaos and "organized crime gangs," which have infiltrated significant parts of the KFOR staff. The role of the United States is also deemed counterproductive: The IEP accuses Washington of being involved in helping criminals to flee, "sometimes openly" hindering European investigations into war crimes and training former KLA fighters -- an "obvious" breach of the UN resolution"

- now if that is 'success' for Kouchner one can only wonder what a failure would be!!!

"Kouchner also said he believed that Kosovo, under the international administration, was a “success story”.

What a surprise he says that... O wait, Kouchner was the first UN boss in Kosovo. Makes his judgement of the UN-work over there really objective.

So Kouchner opposes Kosovo partition but he is all for the partition of Serbia and the creation of greater albania?? We can see right through your hypocrisy Mr. Kouchner, and you are not fooling anyone, including the Russians and Chinese.

HAHAHHA, what a joke by Kouchner. Who is he trying to fool - "international admin a success" !!!!

And no partition??

It would be intersting to know why Europe is so intent on not allowing partition to take place. It's obvious why the US doesn't want it to happen - Bondsteel.

Is it because of the fabled mineral wealth in the north where the Serbs are?? I've heard varying estimates of it worth ranging from a few billion to tens, even hundreds of billions.

As an aside, it always makes me laugh when the abanians say they need Trepca for their economy even though it is in the Serbian part of Kosovo.

With that logic, maybe Croatia should invade all the countries lining the Med so that it can lay claim to the extensive fishing rights, or maybe Spain should invade southern France to acquire the fertile wine making and other agricultural industry.

Just shows what a farce this all really is and the reality of the situation - a blatant land grab by the West via the Albanians, nothing more, nothing less.

Laki - NY
Then its clear... we wont go into the EU but we will keep Kosovo.

On another point, it clearly shows the desperation of the West in the hope of getting out of the mess they made for themselves given that yesterday it was reported in the reuters article titled 'Major powers nudge Serbs, Kosovo towards partition'

""Don't expect France to propose such reshaping," he told a Belgrade newspaper. "At the very least, Belgrade and Pristina would have to agree on it. And in that case I don't see how France could oppose it," Kouchner said.

British ambassador to Serbia Steven Wordsworth took a similar line to the question earlier this week.

"Partition is not a good idea, for many reasons," Wordsworth told Serbia's Beta news agency. But he added: "If in the process of talks the two sides agree on that, that would change things.""
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1210293820070712
- here we have both the UK & French suggesting that they want partition as a way out but need Serbia to suggest partitioning their own state !!!

Clearly Kouchner the 'international community' you talked of being in the right or wrong is in a pickle to say the least and has no idea of morale compass to guide them!

Summing up the quandary that Kouchner and the 'international community' is a quote from H.G. Wells 'The Island of Doctor Moreau'
"I was alternately despairful and desperate. Once or twice
as I stood waiting there for things to accomplish themselves,
I could not resist an impulse to laugh at my miserable quandary"
- the Gordian knot can be solved so simply by upholding all that the 'IC' have signed and agreed already in the obligations of 1244 which affirms Serbia's sovereignity.

Surely the EU is about bringing wall down not creating them?

B92 left out this important quote by Kouchner…
“"Don't expect France to propose such reshaping," he told a Belgrade newspaper. "At the very least, Belgrade and Pristina would have to agree on it. And in that case I don't see how France could oppose it," Kouchner said.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071200471.html
Which is basically exactly the same as what Wordsworth said last week and what James Lyon of the ICG also stated in his blog.
In reality his announcement was a very big change in the stance of the West. Now they seem to be pushing Serbia and Kosovo to discuss the idea of partition, which no one seems to want to openly discuss.
Let’s discuss it!

Matthew, I'd say partition is going to be an inevitable outcome, if not in reality, then at least de facto, as Pristina has not, does not, and mostly likely will not have any authority north of the Ibar. No one even talks anymore of unifying Mitrovica, and the Ahtisaari Plan even noted the establishment of a university in North Mitrovica. Kosovo, more most intents, is already largely divided. As such, the natural wealth of Kosovo is still largely in the hands of the Serbs and if the Albanians want a piece of the action, they're going to have to compromise. This is probably one of the reasons why so many are opposed to partition, in that the vast wealth will be controlled by the Serbs, leave the rest of Kosovo dependent on international handouts. I'd say this is the perfect bargaining chip Belgrade/North Mitrovica can use to negotiate a better deal with Pristina. I mean let's be honest: no one speaks of how Belgrade can reestablish legitimate authority in the rest of Kosovo, and no one is considering how Pristina is going to exert loyalty from areas north of the Ibar.

Im a Serb
I am 100% against any partition of Serbian territory.

By the time that Total signs the gas deal with Gazprom France's position will be identical to Russia's.
Money talks comic book diplomacy walks.

i am glad everybody is laughing, i guess thats all you have to say. instead of criticizing the french why dont you look to the serbian side for a response? Anyway this is like a chess game that the russions say we dont need the clock, too bad you have to kings serbia and russia,

I concur 100% Mike. I personally believe the Albanian side should get concessions on Trepca. I support, as always, including both Presevo et all and Trepca as bargaining chips for some special concessions on our Historical sites such as Pec and Decani.

I do like your suggestion of allowing Pec & Decani to join with Montenegro rather then Serbia, this might be easier for Albanians to except then union with Serbia. I also think it would greatly increase the economic prospects of those two regions. Montenegro has seen incredible growth lately in the tourist industry, and that is exactly the industry that would benefit Pec & Decani the most. Relations between Montenegrins and Albanians have never been better. I think we can build on our shared history and clan system together. We also need to empathize those Albanian families that were the traditional caretakers of our holy sites. Those families need to be held up as the ideal of Serbian-Albanian cooperation. Too many people focus on the differences between our two peoples instead of looking at what we have in common. Simply put Pec & Decani would be far more successful as part of Montenegro then under Serbia, Kosovo or Albania.

I for one, actually greatly admire many aspects of Albanian culture as its nearly identical in so many ways to my Montenegro. As I've said before, I'm from a mixed clan, the Piperi, and I think those of us in that situation are best able to bridge the gap between Serbian and Albanian interests.

If the mines were on the Serbian side of Kosovo/a this issue would have been over by now. As Kostunica and his cronies would have made billions from it by now. Its because they don't have the mines that they're doing all of this. Kostunica and his cronies are chasing those billions of dollars. They could care less if the so called "full fledged" Serbian citizens of Albanian ethnicity ,as he calls them, were independent or not once he could get his ends into that money. What would he do or the Serbian state do with the "problematic" part of Kosovo/a anyway? Those "full fledged" citizens not only are not needed by Serbia but it'd be the best solution for the Serb politicians as they'd be filthy rich, and rid of the problem at the same time by separating Albanians from the mines( division of Kosovo/a)

I had some other thoughts in regards to partition. It requires some serious financial support by the major powers involved. If the EU is genuine about a true and lasting peace, they’d better take all this very seriously. The Balkans is a messy place.

So first off, I’d offer like 100.000 Euros to anyone (Serb or Albanian) left as a minority in a region. This could either be used to relocate or stay and build a good life. I can promise the amount would not exceed the price of a single Stealth Bomber, like the one shot down by Serbia for example. This might help in those regions where partition is not an easy call or is very mixed. Make being a minority in an area like winning the lottery. It will make it easier on the people who live through that, and also help to limit the number of minorities left outside their ethnic group.

I’m also considering at this moment in time some sort of special status for our Churches. Like the Vatican, or an Embassy, officially those areas are another country. They could be linked by a Subway system connected to Belgrade. That would allow us easy access and guaranteed protection. It would also have a minimal impact on Albanians living in those regions.

Right now, we have the attention of the Big Powers for whatever reason, we should take advantage of that. We need to come up with a plan together and ask them to help finance it. If it results in violence, its going to be partition anyway, and then we won’t get any help nor any respect and we both suffer and we both get set back another decade while the rest of our neighbors zoom ahead of us.

The ridiculous reason for opposing partition is to create a false facade of a functioning multiethnic society, but everyone knows what a farce this is ..... its time to have a reality check.

Mathew: "As I've said before, I'm from a mixed clan, the Piperi, and I think those of us in that situation ..."

Mathew, one day you're from Piperi, the next day from Vojvodina, yet another day you're from Bosnia. Make up your mind already! Next thing you know, you'll claim a relative in every village of ex-Yugoslavia.
You want Decani, that has 99% Albanian population to go to Montenegro? I think you forgat to ask Haradinaj if you want to give his home village away.
You want partition? Serbia gets Zvecan, Zubin Potok and Leposavic and Kosova gets Presheva, Bujanovc and Medvegja. And that's it. Fair and square. I don't care about the mines north of Ibar, but I care a lot about having a country that is not sliced up in 50 million different ways, and I care more than anything about a country that is defensable, just in case Serbia gets another take at invasion. Every Serb here keep saying that Serbia won't recognize Kosova and won't give up the idea to take it again, 10, 100, or 500 years from now. And you want us to give you access to the heart of Kosova? And whoever falls on the wrong side of the border, be it Albanian or Serb, would just have to take it and adapt like any other minority in the world, or they can pack up and leave if they don't like it. And churches should have to be like any other church in the world, they should mind their own business - religion - inside the walls of the church and not get involved in politics, diplomacy or international relations, because that is not the business of the church, their business is with God. And when they do, nobody will really care about a church sitting in the middle of nowhere, because people have more important things to do with their lives. Let Nato protect them forever, but no extraterritoriality, otherwise they would just become outposts for Serbian secret services.

happy july the 14th FRANCE

Adrian,
seeing as you undertsand the concept of integration and rule of law of the state your in and more importantly seeing as the Serbian province of Kosovo & Metohija as affirmed by 1244 means you and all ethnic Albanians are as you put it
"falls on the wrong side of the border, be it Albanian or Serb, would just have to take it and adapt like any other minority in the world, or they can pack up and leave if they don't like it"
- I hope they all just take it and like I said before learn to accept the state they are in and "conformto it"!

Adrian, what clan are you? Anyways, you see I also proposed just giving us the Church at Pec and connecting it with an underground railway. I am trying hard to find compromises that have the least negative impact on your people. Believe me, I don’t like the idea of giving up any of Kosovo, but in the interests of peace and stability I seek a compromise that we can both live with. OK, you don’t care about Trepca, some do. It should be discussed. I know Medveda only has a 30% Albanian population and Bujanovac barely has a majority. Personally, I feel that your side should give us something in return for those. Medveda especially shouldn’t be a free hand out. All that being said, you raise an interesting point, if Serbia deserves to lose Kosovo for the crimes of Milosevic, maybe Kosovo ought to lose Pec for the crimes of Haradinaj?

OK, you really want a lesson in my family history?

My wife is from Kostajnica in Bosnia, half her family is from the other side of the river in Croatian Kostajnica, part of Krajina. That’s simple enough. Right next to Jasenovac, a very bad place to be. I’ve seen some very messed up things. No one can try to tell me the Serbs weren’t victims at times, I’ve seen with my own eyes the end results of Operation Storm. My wife was only 16 when it happened. She still has night terrors. As a result, I completely sympathize with the suffering of your people and condemn all violence. I’m simply motivated by a very real concern for the safety and future of the region and the preservation of our history.

My great grandmother was a Bjeladinovic, Dalmation nobility descended from Knez Bjelan a member of the Nemanjac dynasty. I have a copy of the Venetian title for my family, the Austrians recognized us after that as well. We’ve controlled Risan since the 10th Century. We lived in the Kotor Bay Area and Dubrovnik. The Bjelandinovic’s are straight up old school Serb, no clan, not Montenegrin. The Bjeladinovic Palace is in the main square in Kotor, and you’ll find our monasteries in Kotor Bay as well, I’ve been to them. My great grandmother’s mother was a Nikolic from Novi Sad, also part of Austria at the time. Her brother was the attendant to Prince Danilo and her family founded the first library in Beograd. This was told to me by long lost cousins I tracked down in Belgrade, Dubrovnik and Risan. Its also where I got the copy of the family title and such. I spent the last 15 years trying to unravel my family history, but didn’t feel comfortable coming to the Balkans to do research until Milosevic was out of power. My quest to understand my roots created in me a great interest in history and political science, naturally enough.

I am a Popovic, my great grandfather was from Risan. According the book “Risan I Stare Risanske Porodice” and my wife’s notes on it (She’s in Bosnia right now) the Popovich’s came from Stijena Piperska – G. Orahovac – Popovi Do. The Popovich’s are Montenegrin and we do have a clan, the Piperi. Being that Popovich is my name, I consider myself Montenegrin and proud of it. I look straight up exactly like the Njegos family.

Also check out wikipedia (I know its not much of a real source, but…) Clearly lists Popovic on the list of Piperi members.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piperi_clan


Now I didn’t even go into my mother’s family at all. She’s Texan, daughter of a Baptist Holy Roller minister. That’s a great deal of fun as well, but I won’t go into at the moment.

So there you go. You have much of my background right there.

I was pretty firm on Piperi, but you know, Wiki lists Popovic’s from Orahovo as Kuci.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku%C4%8Di

That lists Popovic’s under the Drekalovići “(larger ancestral entity encompassing Montenegrins of Albanian origin descending from the Kastrioti family).”

I guess PB was right, I am Albanian, ha ha ha ha…

I don’t know, I did find one error in that book I listed. It claimed my great great grandfather came to the US with my great grandfather, and I know he came alone, I have copies of the Ellis Island paperwork.

Maybe Anthony knows, he studied all that in college.

Mathew, thanks for your family history, that was interesting. Back to the topic at hand. You propose an underground railway only for the church of Pec? That sounds like science fiction; who's going to build it, who's going to sponsor such a project, because economically it makes no sense at all. And why can't you just simply visit a church that resides in the territory of the independent Kosova, why does it have to be at any cost a part of Serbia, for you to visit it. The church will be where it always have been, where it was built and where it has its history; you can come, take a bus and visit it, pray in it and hold mass, enjoy the frescos and take pictures, and at the end of the day take a bus back or stay another day in a nice Kosovar hotel and enjoy the delicious local food. And how is this any different from what you can do today or from what you could've done at any time. What would it matter to you as a tourist or a pilgim, whether the border is over that hill or under this bridge, or any other complicated political or diplomatic arrangements for that matter? You'd be comming for the culture, history, or the religion, and these are borderless. Think of Hagia Sofia or the Orthodox Patriarchate in Instanbul. How many millions of people visit them every year. Yet Hagia Sofia is the most sacred church in Orthodoxy, smack in the heart of a muslim country, but it's not part of Greece, and none in their right mind would ask it to be. Both Greeks and Turks are very proud of it and visit and cherish it equally.
Let the security for these churches be adequate, by both NATO and international and Kosova Police. If the Kosova Police could handle so professionally a band of crazed nationalists like the Guard of Czar Lazar that had promissed to take Kosova in two hours, I think they could handle the security for any group of civilized and normal tourists or pilgrims, that don't come around to provoke and flash the three finger salute or the Serbian flag in everyone's faces, but are there to simply fulfill their spiritual needs.

Adrian Gashi wrote:
"why does it have to be at any cost a part of Serbia"

posing such a question proves that you will probably never understand it.

because is never was albanian? let´s ask the other way around:
why for heavens sake are the Albanians so eagerly trying to change borders, if it is only about "not living under serbian boot"? broad autonomy under international supervision is something Albanians cannot live with? it would be interesting for the international community to hear what is so bad about their supervision ( if not needed to achieve a greater Albania ).

Adrian,

As I stated, all that could be built for less then the price of a single stealth bomber, like the one shot down by the Serbs. The International Community is big on spending money to destroy and bomb, they should be forced to spend the same amount rebuilding everything to help both our peoples.

I do realize of course its not exactly practical. However, this is as good a place as any to throw up ideas and see what sticks.

It is a solution that would allow us to keep the head of our Church and have the least negative impact on your people. It doesn’t sound to me like you have any strong serious reservations towards the idea. My baseline for whether something should be discussed or not is would you go to war to reject it?

As far as Istanbul goes, why is it still referred to as Constantinople by most Americans? Hundreds of years later?

Jovan:
"because is never was albanian? let´s ask the other way around:
why for heavens sake are the Albanians so eagerly trying to change borders, if it is only about "not living under serbian boot"? broad autonomy under international supervision is something Albanians cannot live with? it would be interesting for the international community to hear what is so bad about their supervision ( if not needed to achieve a greater Albania )."

Jovan, America was never American until the declaration of Independence from the UK. Your proposal of autonomy would take us back some 40 years. Autonomy in Kosova was historically tested and failed. It was simply taken away when it was convinient for Serbia and its population could do nothing about it. Even with autonomy, Serbia did install a police state in Kosova and again the local population could not do anything but be subjected to it. The natural wealth of the province was regularly plundered away, the macro-economic decisions were made in Belgrade, Kosova's minerals were paying for some 20% of Yugoslavia's state budget and yet the province languished as the poorest in Yugoslavia. These were exactely the issues raised by the student protests of 1981 in Prishtina. Yes, Serbia did invest millions in Kosova, however these money were used primarily in the colonization programmes, to build houses and property for the Serbian ethnic minority and to settle more Serbs into the region, to build churches, remove Albanians from Kosova (Turkey was paid thousands of dollars for every Albanian sent to Turkey), to maintain an army, a police state and a security apparatus as well as fight off various rebellions. Yes, police states tend to be expensive and that's why Kosova was a money pit, not because Serbia tried to raise the standard of living for the majority of the population. And by leaving the majority of its population in poverty and uneducated, these programmes achieved the exact opposite of their aims of changing the ethnic structure of the province, becase the poor and the uneducated usually tend to have more children.

Why are Albanians so eagerly trying to change borders, you ask? Because borders are a man-made concept, and they should accomodate people not the other way around and because they think that borders were set arbitrarely and violently in 1912 and against the wishes of the population. Because Albanians want to have a country of their own, internationally recognized, that can enter into defense agreements with our western friends, and that will be the best guarantee for the security and safety of its population against another Serbian agresion. Because the native population wants to have this state, so that the resources of this country, and the profit of their labor go for the improvement of life and well-being of its people, rather for the agrandisment of someone else's imperial dreams.

" it would be interesting for the international community to hear what is so bad about their supervision "

The international community itself wants to get out of this supervision. Here's what's bad about it:
http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=2502&a=664639

BTW, this is one of our Palaces my family owns. Its selling for 1.200.000 Euro's, of course I don't have the money to buy out the rest of everyone's interest, so it'll probably get snatched up by the Russian mafia...

http://www.dreammontenegro.com/property.php?id=341#

Took me years to track this property down, and I only got to visit it once...

Mathew, I have no problem with churches having adequate security provided that the security of Kosova is not compromised either. I think both of these can be achieved and I think the most important measure lies at the hands of the church itself, by disentangling itself from the realm of politics and dealing strictly in religious matters.

I too like the name of Constantinople better, after all it evokes the figure of Constantine the Great, the illustrious Illyrian emperor from Nish, who set one very important cornerstone in the edifice of the western civilization, by making Christianity the official religion of the Empire.

Adrian,

We do in fact basically agree on most points and what I'm trying to do is find those areas where we can agree. Its always good to empathize what we agree on first, and then move onto the more difficult issues.

Trust me, I am not a big fan of Religion in politics. I'm extremely secular and quite distrustful of the way religion has been used in the past to justify violence and oppression the world over. The issue is religion for Serbs and Albanians is a very different thing. Albanians can be Muslim, Catholic, Orthodox or whatever, you're still an Albanian regardless.

For Serbs its different. Serbs who convert to Islam become Bosniaks, Catholic they become Croatian. Its strange, silly and outdated. Hence why I miss Yugoslavia so much.

So unfortunately for us, separating religion from ethnic identity is simply impossible.

Hence why historically our Churches hold such meaning for us and our identity.

Believe me when I say I want your people to live in safety and to rule themselves in whatever way they feel is best. I truly do, or I wouldn't spend so much time trying to find solutions acceptable to both sides. I know your people suffered abuses in the past, I do not deny that, nor do I think its fair that so many Albanians live outside of Albania.

I do feel strongly about Serbian history and culture and Kosovo plays a very important role in our belief system and in the identity of what a Serb is.

I also believe that if these feelings of the Serbs are not taken into account, it will only setup the region for some future conflict. We NEED a solution that allows the average MODERATE Serb to feel as though Kosovo is still a part of Serbia and that our historical sites that represent the very foundation of our civilization still belong to us. The reality is, only a very small portion of Kosovo is really all that contentious. Probably 95% of the Albanian majority areas can be let go of without it becoming a future problem and I'm all in support of that.

Partition is clearly the way forward, but now is the time for moderates on both sides of the divide to step forward and offer suggestions that might possibly make this a sustainable and stable solution for the region as a whole going forward. The price for failure is high, not just for us, but for the EU as a whole.

Just to be funny, I like to refer to Istabul as Byzantium (its original name).