Hey PB,
Albaninas would not expel serbs after Kosova international recognition of independence, but serbs will leave Kosova becasue they can not stand to live where Albaninas governThey are used to rule with iron fist and use the wealth of Kosova to build serbia proper , specifically belgrade and its sourroundings.This question is being asked right now from many different agencies, just ask UNHCR and they will tell you the same base on response coming from the field from serbs themselv. I had the opportunity to be inone of the metings where serbs were gathered at town hall and they all said they will pack upo and leave becase they can never except Albaninas to govern.
“stop talking about annexations” Valid point, I personally think its more like succession as well.
“Russia on the other hand has continually refused all the options the pro-independence camp has proposed”
I think you’re engaging in a sort of double speak here by using the phrase “ALL the options”. Pretty much the ONLY option pushed by the “pro-independence” camp is well, exactly that, independence.
While I can sort of understand the frustration that Russia hasn’t been direct, it really is better for the future of the region (and all disputed regions in the world) if we are to work it out ourselves. I know its hard for you to sit down with Serbs and talk about the situation and it seems so much easier to leave it to the big powers, but its better we learn to do this sort of thing sooner rather then later.
“K-Albanians miss Serb rule like the plague and the Serb don't even want to think about giving up Serbia”
Well, first of all there’s many possible solutions that avoid Serb rule (I personally support partition obviously), but with autonomy or some sort of federation or instant membership in the EU you would be safe and able to rule yourselves.
The reality is Teni, it’s never good to be a minority in the Balkans. No one in the region has a spotless record towards human rights. What you guys did after the NATO bombing and in 2004 proves the Albanians aren’t really ready enough to ensure the rights of minorities and control the population. Even more Western and more advanced countries like Croatia have faired poorly, they even committed crimes against their own allies the Bosniaks. I completely respect your desire not to be rules by Belgrade, and it’s understandable, but you must also understand that we Serbs are also dealing with the same issues you are. Split across a number of various countries and traditionally abused as a minority in nearly all of them. The last time you guys were in the majority and we were in the minority was WWII, and that didn’t work out so well for us then either (to put it mildly).
Ahtisaari proposed “autonomy” for Serbs in Kosovo basically, but it was an empty promise and those protections could easily be abolished under Paragraph 3.7 of Annex II. I read the Serbian proposal on Serbianna.com and to be honest, I was also disappointed with that one. It gave you more rights then Ahtisaari’s plan gave us, but I think both fall very short of solid concrete protections that can not be altered.
So let’s talk partition Teni. What would you trade on your side for Presevo et all and Trepca? I personally think you’d rather have an educated discussion on the points and merits rather then to only bash Serbs.
quoting Teni: "but for us compromise means independence".And if that was your goal all along, how are you compromising then may I ask? I can share my experience about negotiating. I used to be the "union guy" in a big company, so I handled the negotiations with bosses on behalf of the workers concerning all kinds of of issues. And as always our opinions always were very far from each other in the start. Everytime when other side recieved every goal without having to give something in return, things usually didn't work out because the losing side wasn't really on board and made things difficult. So, in the end it was back to negotiating table, and trying to work things out again. Even though you albanians and serbians might seem to be very far apart in your opinions at the moment, you still should give REAL negotiations a chance. And this time try be open minded, and try to see things from each others perspective. It might take time, but when you get a negotiated result in the end everybody will be happy. Isn't that what you want?
Indeed,
Square 1 suits us fine. Sooner or later a splinter cell in Kosovo will do something and lose a lot of support albans have. Hopefully enough for NATO to leave instead of lossing its soldiers to people they r there to protect.
Another thing why is it a comprimise that minorities will not be harmed? They will not be harmed either way.
Once all the provisions of the existing UN Resolution have been fulfilled then the UN can take up the Kosovo question again but by that time all 7 CEFTA countries will be in the EU so the issue will be moot.If the Albanians in Kosovo do not wish for any ethnic Serb policemen in Kosovo there are plenty of Romanian,Hungarian etc.police and soldiers in the Serbian security forces who can be deployed in Kosovo just as the existing UN Resolution calls for.The Greeks and Turks still have not reunited in Cyprus but at least no more people have died since the civil war they had 30 years ago.Patience should never be replaced by violence.
Teni - Be under no illusions. The Albanians have a disgraceful record with regards to human rights and minorities. It's an open secret that the remaining Serbs will be expelled from Kosovo, should it be granted independence, with the blessing of the US.
What politicians say in public and what they really think are two different things. Read the article.http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=199
That minister of russia needs to keep his mouth quiet, if he believes that Kosova will be a precendent for countries like Chechneya than continued talks isn't something that's not in russia's interest.
Let's use this notion "if both parties aren't happy let's keep talking" for the issue with Chechenya.
serbians are used to being a 5% minority to rule everyone--not anymore
Ahtisari plan gives such tremendous power to a minority, everyone in the world dreams of such. Srebenica has accepted the plan, obviously, it's gonna request some form of autonomy.
Also dear serbs the whole world sees how you follow your leaders unquestionably when you believe that Kosova under serbia proper is worth 15% of the land, check again, it's 12%!!
To Cvele: That might be your idea of compromise and I respect that, but for us compromise means independence and guaranteed rights for minorities. In other words, we're back to square one.
this is to you suzy
your short sightedness has been witnessed before in the balkans, a leader called milosevic i think had the same mentality, not only did he say the same thing but he fallowed through.
as for australia, lebanese popullation dosent exceed the 170thousand mark,out of those it only the youth that formed gangs and such nonsense that even their own parent are against, we are talking about fewer than 3000 people, now if you ever seen australias 15 percent even greater yugoslavia its not worth half of it. As for america and spain they both gave them 15%, were do you think the mexicans in america live?mexico?
As for kosovo, most of them had and still have a yugoslav passport, never serbian, but so did macedonians montenegrians and the others serbia didn't treat equally.
I understand your frustration as diaspora but to you this is only news in kosovo they have to put up with this everyday in real life. Do you know how many company's are scared to invest in kosovo because your diaspora is sick of it?
Tragically incorrect was the 90s when things happened and the people of serbia sponsored their governments to continue. this is the domino effect suzy. it is the last chapter in the old yugoslavia.
As for you, you are diaspora that probably will never even go to kosovo and prey to the great churches
Serbia's friend, Sergei Lavrov, Russia's foreign minister, should be saying that Kosovo and Metohija is a province of Serbia, and as such is Serbian sovereign territory and that ethnic Albanians, just like everyone else under legal capacity, according to Serbian law, can live on Serbian land; that is Serbia's sovereign territory. What is so difficult about this!
Anyone can "choose" under Serbian law to live in Serbia, they are, not one person forced to live in Serbia , they can leave if it repulses them.
The Serbian diaspora is getting sooooo sick of all of this stupidity and repetition.
Please tell me which country will give its ethnic minority 15% of it territory.
Will Australia and will Prime Minister John Howard give 15% of Australia to the Lebanese minority, or any other minority!
Will America give 15% of its territory to the Mexicans!
Will Spain give 15% of its territory to the Basque people!
Please someone let me know who will give their territory, that is 15% of their sovereign territory because an ethnic minority seeks it and threatens violence.
Which country!
When the Government of Serbia has the answer to this question then diplomats can talk about Serbia and not before!
This is so tragically incorrect.
What kind of uncoditional talks are the Serbs talking about when they rule out independence? Unconditional means just that, uncoditional. Unless the Serbs are planning to offer independence at the negotiating table. It would be a very good exit strategy from the mess in which Milosevic has put them in... I think that Albanians should make a few steps back. Forget about the status for a while and let the Serbs and Russians come to them. Albanians have survived under the Serbs and can survive under UN. It is the Serbs who need a clarified status more than Albanians. I'd advise K-Albanians to turn to Albania and build a proxy state... they should all get albanian passports remove border controls and function as a de facto province of albania... After that you'd see Serbia rushing with independence offers...
well to all of you then:
First of all stop talking about annexations because Kosovo is not being annexed by anybody. Kosovo wants to seccede and the US - and to a lesser extent the EU - have made their support for this clear. (Seccession my dear Achilleas is very different from annexation.) Russia on the other hand has continually refused all the options the pro-independence camp has proposed, but it has never proposed an option of its own. I do understand that Russia as ever has Serbia's ineterst at heart which means that a "fair solution" would be Serbia's solution. I just wish they would be as open about it as the US et al have been in their supoprt of K-Albanians.
And Jovan I would like to know why you think it is nonsense. They will never agree and both parties have made it clear that their positions are diametrically oppsed. K-Albanians miss Serb rule like the plague and the Serb don't even want to think about giving up Serbia, so you tell me what a compromise might entail.
As for you Jack...well if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.
Teni, you have a very slim grasp of diplomacy. You will never hear a bottomline from Russia because the traditional art of diplomacy is about dicussion, offer/counter-offer and compromise.
I understand your confusion, it is no doubt due to the US abandonment of diplomacy in the nineties and its replacement with ridiculous black and white demands. That is 'diplomacy of the gun' as opposed to 'traditional diplomacy'. That unipolar world is gone now so get used to the new/old way.
"But we all know that K-Albanians and Serbs will NEVER agree"
teni, that´s nonsense, what you have written.
by the way: nicely said by Mr.Lavrov, Ahtissari wasn´t a real high level player anyway, but with statements like the previous one he´s only approving what many others think of him.
Teni, how do you know unless you try? When I mean try it implies with an open mind to achive the objective of finding a solution not a closed mind of wanting all your own way because someone promised something that was not theres to promise!
Teni, exactly the same rational can be applied to the USA/UK as well.
Nearly all nations of the world see anexing one state's territory, even with the carrot of some kind of future bargain or deal, as something apriori unacceptable, yet USA/UK (and few of their temproral satellites) seem to be stuck in this logic?
I still have to hear a Russian diplomat say what the bottomline should be. Lavrov says that the talks should continue as long as one of the sides does not agree with the proposed outcome. But we all know that K-Albanians and Serbs will NEVER agree on the status of Kosovo. Does that mean that they should be engaged in talks for all eternity?
A very strange position this on the part of Russia.
I still have to hear a Russian diplomat say what the bottomline should be. Lavrov says that the talks should continue as long as one of the sides does not agree with the proposed outcome. But we all know that K-Albanians and Serbs will NEVER agree on the status of Kosovo. Does that mean that they should be engaged in talks for all eternity?
A very strange position this on the part of Russia.
"But we all know that K-Albanians and Serbs will NEVER agree"
teni, that´s nonsense, what you have written.
by the way: nicely said by Mr.Lavrov, Ahtissari wasn´t a real high level player anyway, but with statements like the previous one he´s only approving what many others think of him.
Teni, you have a very slim grasp of diplomacy. You will never hear a bottomline from Russia because the traditional art of diplomacy is about dicussion, offer/counter-offer and compromise.
I understand your confusion, it is no doubt due to the US abandonment of diplomacy in the nineties and its replacement with ridiculous black and white demands. That is 'diplomacy of the gun' as opposed to 'traditional diplomacy'. That unipolar world is gone now so get used to the new/old way.
Teni, exactly the same rational can be applied to the USA/UK as well.
Nearly all nations of the world see anexing one state's territory, even with the carrot of some kind of future bargain or deal, as something apriori unacceptable, yet USA/UK (and few of their temproral satellites) seem to be stuck in this logic?
Teni, how do you know unless you try? When I mean try it implies with an open mind to achive the objective of finding a solution not a closed mind of wanting all your own way because someone promised something that was not theres to promise!
well to all of you then:
First of all stop talking about annexations because Kosovo is not being annexed by anybody. Kosovo wants to seccede and the US - and to a lesser extent the EU - have made their support for this clear. (Seccession my dear Achilleas is very different from annexation.) Russia on the other hand has continually refused all the options the pro-independence camp has proposed, but it has never proposed an option of its own. I do understand that Russia as ever has Serbia's ineterst at heart which means that a "fair solution" would be Serbia's solution. I just wish they would be as open about it as the US et al have been in their supoprt of K-Albanians.
And Jovan I would like to know why you think it is nonsense. They will never agree and both parties have made it clear that their positions are diametrically oppsed. K-Albanians miss Serb rule like the plague and the Serb don't even want to think about giving up Serbia, so you tell me what a compromise might entail.
As for you Jack...well if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.
Serbia's friend, Sergei Lavrov, Russia's foreign minister, should be saying that Kosovo and Metohija is a province of Serbia, and as such is Serbian sovereign territory and that ethnic Albanians, just like everyone else under legal capacity, according to Serbian law, can live on Serbian land; that is Serbia's sovereign territory. What is so difficult about this!
Anyone can "choose" under Serbian law to live in Serbia, they are, not one person forced to live in Serbia , they can leave if it repulses them.
The Serbian diaspora is getting sooooo sick of all of this stupidity and repetition.
Please tell me which country will give its ethnic minority 15% of it territory.
Will Australia and will Prime Minister John Howard give 15% of Australia to the Lebanese minority, or any other minority!
Will America give 15% of its territory to the Mexicans!
Will Spain give 15% of its territory to the Basque people!
Please someone let me know who will give their territory, that is 15% of their sovereign territory because an ethnic minority seeks it and threatens violence.
Which country!
When the Government of Serbia has the answer to this question then diplomats can talk about Serbia and not before!
This is so tragically incorrect.
What kind of uncoditional talks are the Serbs talking about when they rule out independence? Unconditional means just that, uncoditional. Unless the Serbs are planning to offer independence at the negotiating table. It would be a very good exit strategy from the mess in which Milosevic has put them in... I think that Albanians should make a few steps back. Forget about the status for a while and let the Serbs and Russians come to them. Albanians have survived under the Serbs and can survive under UN. It is the Serbs who need a clarified status more than Albanians. I'd advise K-Albanians to turn to Albania and build a proxy state... they should all get albanian passports remove border controls and function as a de facto province of albania... After that you'd see Serbia rushing with independence offers...
That minister of russia needs to keep his mouth quiet, if he believes that Kosova will be a precendent for countries like Chechneya than continued talks isn't something that's not in russia's interest.
Let's use this notion "if both parties aren't happy let's keep talking" for the issue with Chechenya.
serbians are used to being a 5% minority to rule everyone--not anymore
Ahtisari plan gives such tremendous power to a minority, everyone in the world dreams of such. Srebenica has accepted the plan, obviously, it's gonna request some form of autonomy.
Also dear serbs the whole world sees how you follow your leaders unquestionably when you believe that Kosova under serbia proper is worth 15% of the land, check again, it's 12%!!
this is to you suzy
your short sightedness has been witnessed before in the balkans, a leader called milosevic i think had the same mentality, not only did he say the same thing but he fallowed through.
as for australia, lebanese popullation dosent exceed the 170thousand mark,out of those it only the youth that formed gangs and such nonsense that even their own parent are against, we are talking about fewer than 3000 people, now if you ever seen australias 15 percent even greater yugoslavia its not worth half of it. As for america and spain they both gave them 15%, were do you think the mexicans in america live?mexico?
As for kosovo, most of them had and still have a yugoslav passport, never serbian, but so did macedonians montenegrians and the others serbia didn't treat equally.
I understand your frustration as diaspora but to you this is only news in kosovo they have to put up with this everyday in real life. Do you know how many company's are scared to invest in kosovo because your diaspora is sick of it?
Tragically incorrect was the 90s when things happened and the people of serbia sponsored their governments to continue. this is the domino effect suzy. it is the last chapter in the old yugoslavia.
As for you, you are diaspora that probably will never even go to kosovo and prey to the great churches
To Cvele: That might be your idea of compromise and I respect that, but for us compromise means independence and guaranteed rights for minorities. In other words, we're back to square one.
Teni - Be under no illusions. The Albanians have a disgraceful record with regards to human rights and minorities. It's an open secret that the remaining Serbs will be expelled from Kosovo, should it be granted independence, with the blessing of the US.
What politicians say in public and what they really think are two different things. Read the article.http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=199
Once all the provisions of the existing UN Resolution have been fulfilled then the UN can take up the Kosovo question again but by that time all 7 CEFTA countries will be in the EU so the issue will be moot.If the Albanians in Kosovo do not wish for any ethnic Serb policemen in Kosovo there are plenty of Romanian,Hungarian etc.police and soldiers in the Serbian security forces who can be deployed in Kosovo just as the existing UN Resolution calls for.The Greeks and Turks still have not reunited in Cyprus but at least no more people have died since the civil war they had 30 years ago.Patience should never be replaced by violence.
Indeed,
Square 1 suits us fine. Sooner or later a splinter cell in Kosovo will do something and lose a lot of support albans have. Hopefully enough for NATO to leave instead of lossing its soldiers to people they r there to protect.
Another thing why is it a comprimise that minorities will not be harmed? They will not be harmed either way.
quoting Teni: "but for us compromise means independence".And if that was your goal all along, how are you compromising then may I ask? I can share my experience about negotiating. I used to be the "union guy" in a big company, so I handled the negotiations with bosses on behalf of the workers concerning all kinds of of issues. And as always our opinions always were very far from each other in the start. Everytime when other side recieved every goal without having to give something in return, things usually didn't work out because the losing side wasn't really on board and made things difficult. So, in the end it was back to negotiating table, and trying to work things out again. Even though you albanians and serbians might seem to be very far apart in your opinions at the moment, you still should give REAL negotiations a chance. And this time try be open minded, and try to see things from each others perspective. It might take time, but when you get a negotiated result in the end everybody will be happy. Isn't that what you want?
“stop talking about annexations” Valid point, I personally think its more like succession as well.
“Russia on the other hand has continually refused all the options the pro-independence camp has proposed”
I think you’re engaging in a sort of double speak here by using the phrase “ALL the options”. Pretty much the ONLY option pushed by the “pro-independence” camp is well, exactly that, independence.
While I can sort of understand the frustration that Russia hasn’t been direct, it really is better for the future of the region (and all disputed regions in the world) if we are to work it out ourselves. I know its hard for you to sit down with Serbs and talk about the situation and it seems so much easier to leave it to the big powers, but its better we learn to do this sort of thing sooner rather then later.
“K-Albanians miss Serb rule like the plague and the Serb don't even want to think about giving up Serbia”
Well, first of all there’s many possible solutions that avoid Serb rule (I personally support partition obviously), but with autonomy or some sort of federation or instant membership in the EU you would be safe and able to rule yourselves.
The reality is Teni, it’s never good to be a minority in the Balkans. No one in the region has a spotless record towards human rights. What you guys did after the NATO bombing and in 2004 proves the Albanians aren’t really ready enough to ensure the rights of minorities and control the population. Even more Western and more advanced countries like Croatia have faired poorly, they even committed crimes against their own allies the Bosniaks. I completely respect your desire not to be rules by Belgrade, and it’s understandable, but you must also understand that we Serbs are also dealing with the same issues you are. Split across a number of various countries and traditionally abused as a minority in nearly all of them. The last time you guys were in the majority and we were in the minority was WWII, and that didn’t work out so well for us then either (to put it mildly).
Ahtisaari proposed “autonomy” for Serbs in Kosovo basically, but it was an empty promise and those protections could easily be abolished under Paragraph 3.7 of Annex II. I read the Serbian proposal on Serbianna.com and to be honest, I was also disappointed with that one. It gave you more rights then Ahtisaari’s plan gave us, but I think both fall very short of solid concrete protections that can not be altered.
So let’s talk partition Teni. What would you trade on your side for Presevo et all and Trepca? I personally think you’d rather have an educated discussion on the points and merits rather then to only bash Serbs.
Hey PB,
Albaninas would not expel serbs after Kosova international recognition of independence, but serbs will leave Kosova becasue they can not stand to live where Albaninas governThey are used to rule with iron fist and use the wealth of Kosova to build serbia proper , specifically belgrade and its sourroundings.This question is being asked right now from many different agencies, just ask UNHCR and they will tell you the same base on response coming from the field from serbs themselv. I had the opportunity to be inone of the metings where serbs were gathered at town hall and they all said they will pack upo and leave becase they can never except Albaninas to govern.
I still have to hear a Russian diplomat say what the bottomline should be. Lavrov says that the talks should continue as long as one of the sides does not agree with the proposed outcome. But we all know that K-Albanians and Serbs will NEVER agree on the status of Kosovo. Does that mean that they should be engaged in talks for all eternity?
A very strange position this on the part of Russia.
"But we all know that K-Albanians and Serbs will NEVER agree"
teni, that´s nonsense, what you have written.
by the way: nicely said by Mr.Lavrov, Ahtissari wasn´t a real high level player anyway, but with statements like the previous one he´s only approving what many others think of him.
Teni, you have a very slim grasp of diplomacy. You will never hear a bottomline from Russia because the traditional art of diplomacy is about dicussion, offer/counter-offer and compromise.
I understand your confusion, it is no doubt due to the US abandonment of diplomacy in the nineties and its replacement with ridiculous black and white demands. That is 'diplomacy of the gun' as opposed to 'traditional diplomacy'. That unipolar world is gone now so get used to the new/old way.
Teni, exactly the same rational can be applied to the USA/UK as well.
Nearly all nations of the world see anexing one state's territory, even with the carrot of some kind of future bargain or deal, as something apriori unacceptable, yet USA/UK (and few of their temproral satellites) seem to be stuck in this logic?
Teni, how do you know unless you try? When I mean try it implies with an open mind to achive the objective of finding a solution not a closed mind of wanting all your own way because someone promised something that was not theres to promise!
well to all of you then:
First of all stop talking about annexations because Kosovo is not being annexed by anybody. Kosovo wants to seccede and the US - and to a lesser extent the EU - have made their support for this clear. (Seccession my dear Achilleas is very different from annexation.) Russia on the other hand has continually refused all the options the pro-independence camp has proposed, but it has never proposed an option of its own. I do understand that Russia as ever has Serbia's ineterst at heart which means that a "fair solution" would be Serbia's solution. I just wish they would be as open about it as the US et al have been in their supoprt of K-Albanians.
And Jovan I would like to know why you think it is nonsense. They will never agree and both parties have made it clear that their positions are diametrically oppsed. K-Albanians miss Serb rule like the plague and the Serb don't even want to think about giving up Serbia, so you tell me what a compromise might entail.
As for you Jack...well if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.
Serbia's friend, Sergei Lavrov, Russia's foreign minister, should be saying that Kosovo and Metohija is a province of Serbia, and as such is Serbian sovereign territory and that ethnic Albanians, just like everyone else under legal capacity, according to Serbian law, can live on Serbian land; that is Serbia's sovereign territory. What is so difficult about this!
Anyone can "choose" under Serbian law to live in Serbia, they are, not one person forced to live in Serbia , they can leave if it repulses them.
The Serbian diaspora is getting sooooo sick of all of this stupidity and repetition.
Please tell me which country will give its ethnic minority 15% of it territory.
Will Australia and will Prime Minister John Howard give 15% of Australia to the Lebanese minority, or any other minority!
Will America give 15% of its territory to the Mexicans!
Will Spain give 15% of its territory to the Basque people!
Please someone let me know who will give their territory, that is 15% of their sovereign territory because an ethnic minority seeks it and threatens violence.
Which country!
When the Government of Serbia has the answer to this question then diplomats can talk about Serbia and not before!
This is so tragically incorrect.
What kind of uncoditional talks are the Serbs talking about when they rule out independence? Unconditional means just that, uncoditional. Unless the Serbs are planning to offer independence at the negotiating table. It would be a very good exit strategy from the mess in which Milosevic has put them in... I think that Albanians should make a few steps back. Forget about the status for a while and let the Serbs and Russians come to them. Albanians have survived under the Serbs and can survive under UN. It is the Serbs who need a clarified status more than Albanians. I'd advise K-Albanians to turn to Albania and build a proxy state... they should all get albanian passports remove border controls and function as a de facto province of albania... After that you'd see Serbia rushing with independence offers...
That minister of russia needs to keep his mouth quiet, if he believes that Kosova will be a precendent for countries like Chechneya than continued talks isn't something that's not in russia's interest.
Let's use this notion "if both parties aren't happy let's keep talking" for the issue with Chechenya.
serbians are used to being a 5% minority to rule everyone--not anymore
Ahtisari plan gives such tremendous power to a minority, everyone in the world dreams of such. Srebenica has accepted the plan, obviously, it's gonna request some form of autonomy.
Also dear serbs the whole world sees how you follow your leaders unquestionably when you believe that Kosova under serbia proper is worth 15% of the land, check again, it's 12%!!
this is to you suzy
your short sightedness has been witnessed before in the balkans, a leader called milosevic i think had the same mentality, not only did he say the same thing but he fallowed through.
as for australia, lebanese popullation dosent exceed the 170thousand mark,out of those it only the youth that formed gangs and such nonsense that even their own parent are against, we are talking about fewer than 3000 people, now if you ever seen australias 15 percent even greater yugoslavia its not worth half of it. As for america and spain they both gave them 15%, were do you think the mexicans in america live?mexico?
As for kosovo, most of them had and still have a yugoslav passport, never serbian, but so did macedonians montenegrians and the others serbia didn't treat equally.
I understand your frustration as diaspora but to you this is only news in kosovo they have to put up with this everyday in real life. Do you know how many company's are scared to invest in kosovo because your diaspora is sick of it?
Tragically incorrect was the 90s when things happened and the people of serbia sponsored their governments to continue. this is the domino effect suzy. it is the last chapter in the old yugoslavia.
As for you, you are diaspora that probably will never even go to kosovo and prey to the great churches
To Cvele: That might be your idea of compromise and I respect that, but for us compromise means independence and guaranteed rights for minorities. In other words, we're back to square one.
Teni - Be under no illusions. The Albanians have a disgraceful record with regards to human rights and minorities. It's an open secret that the remaining Serbs will be expelled from Kosovo, should it be granted independence, with the blessing of the US.
What politicians say in public and what they really think are two different things. Read the article.http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=199
Once all the provisions of the existing UN Resolution have been fulfilled then the UN can take up the Kosovo question again but by that time all 7 CEFTA countries will be in the EU so the issue will be moot.If the Albanians in Kosovo do not wish for any ethnic Serb policemen in Kosovo there are plenty of Romanian,Hungarian etc.police and soldiers in the Serbian security forces who can be deployed in Kosovo just as the existing UN Resolution calls for.The Greeks and Turks still have not reunited in Cyprus but at least no more people have died since the civil war they had 30 years ago.Patience should never be replaced by violence.
Indeed,
Square 1 suits us fine. Sooner or later a splinter cell in Kosovo will do something and lose a lot of support albans have. Hopefully enough for NATO to leave instead of lossing its soldiers to people they r there to protect.
Another thing why is it a comprimise that minorities will not be harmed? They will not be harmed either way.
quoting Teni: "but for us compromise means independence".And if that was your goal all along, how are you compromising then may I ask? I can share my experience about negotiating. I used to be the "union guy" in a big company, so I handled the negotiations with bosses on behalf of the workers concerning all kinds of of issues. And as always our opinions always were very far from each other in the start. Everytime when other side recieved every goal without having to give something in return, things usually didn't work out because the losing side wasn't really on board and made things difficult. So, in the end it was back to negotiating table, and trying to work things out again. Even though you albanians and serbians might seem to be very far apart in your opinions at the moment, you still should give REAL negotiations a chance. And this time try be open minded, and try to see things from each others perspective. It might take time, but when you get a negotiated result in the end everybody will be happy. Isn't that what you want?
“stop talking about annexations” Valid point, I personally think its more like succession as well.
“Russia on the other hand has continually refused all the options the pro-independence camp has proposed”
I think you’re engaging in a sort of double speak here by using the phrase “ALL the options”. Pretty much the ONLY option pushed by the “pro-independence” camp is well, exactly that, independence.
While I can sort of understand the frustration that Russia hasn’t been direct, it really is better for the future of the region (and all disputed regions in the world) if we are to work it out ourselves. I know its hard for you to sit down with Serbs and talk about the situation and it seems so much easier to leave it to the big powers, but its better we learn to do this sort of thing sooner rather then later.
“K-Albanians miss Serb rule like the plague and the Serb don't even want to think about giving up Serbia”
Well, first of all there’s many possible solutions that avoid Serb rule (I personally support partition obviously), but with autonomy or some sort of federation or instant membership in the EU you would be safe and able to rule yourselves.
The reality is Teni, it’s never good to be a minority in the Balkans. No one in the region has a spotless record towards human rights. What you guys did after the NATO bombing and in 2004 proves the Albanians aren’t really ready enough to ensure the rights of minorities and control the population. Even more Western and more advanced countries like Croatia have faired poorly, they even committed crimes against their own allies the Bosniaks. I completely respect your desire not to be rules by Belgrade, and it’s understandable, but you must also understand that we Serbs are also dealing with the same issues you are. Split across a number of various countries and traditionally abused as a minority in nearly all of them. The last time you guys were in the majority and we were in the minority was WWII, and that didn’t work out so well for us then either (to put it mildly).
Ahtisaari proposed “autonomy” for Serbs in Kosovo basically, but it was an empty promise and those protections could easily be abolished under Paragraph 3.7 of Annex II. I read the Serbian proposal on Serbianna.com and to be honest, I was also disappointed with that one. It gave you more rights then Ahtisaari’s plan gave us, but I think both fall very short of solid concrete protections that can not be altered.
So let’s talk partition Teni. What would you trade on your side for Presevo et all and Trepca? I personally think you’d rather have an educated discussion on the points and merits rather then to only bash Serbs.
Hey PB,
Albaninas would not expel serbs after Kosova international recognition of independence, but serbs will leave Kosova becasue they can not stand to live where Albaninas governThey are used to rule with iron fist and use the wealth of Kosova to build serbia proper , specifically belgrade and its sourroundings.This question is being asked right now from many different agencies, just ask UNHCR and they will tell you the same base on response coming from the field from serbs themselv. I had the opportunity to be inone of the metings where serbs were gathered at town hall and they all said they will pack upo and leave becase they can never except Albaninas to govern.
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