Many of these Christian churches were giving aid to the Muslims (and some of it going to the Muslim separatist armies) while denying any aid to suffering Serbs - including refugees.
And as another person pointed out - hanging a poster is not the same as destroying property. A poster can easily be removed and there is no material damage or violence.
The message was how these types of churches tend to divide Serbs during a time when much of the world is attacking them. And these sort of churches have not done much to help Serbs - they only want more members for their movements.
Where is the help for the sick, the homeless, rebuilding, cleaning up the neighborhoods, etc.?
As a baptized member of the Orthodox Church, I condemn such intolerance! God is one, and so all Christians should be! The Orthodox Church is not perfect; the 7th day Adventists preach the keeping of the 7th day as Sabbath (Holy Day). In this they are correct, and our Church should do the same! I have read our Serbian Bible (Revised Standard Version) 3 times going on 4 and all throughout it the 7th day is mentioned as the Sabbath including Jesus example. He also held the 7th day as the Holy Sabbath, and in his words "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them" Matthew 5,17. What law? the ten commandments. Commandment #4; Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God.... The 7th day is Saturday, always has been, Saturday not Sunday is the Sabbath. 100's of years after Christ the Church changed it (without Biblical authority) to Sunday so as to distance themselves from the Jews. Problem is that the Jews have that issue right. I believe the Orthodox Church should change the Sabbath back to the proper day, and see how God will bless us for our obedience. I am not endorsing the 7th Adventist Church, I disagree with them on many Biblical issues, but a fact is a fact.
I'm also going to offer my apologies for the destruction of your property, I do believe the Serbian government should pay to repair all the damage done to people's homes. My brother in law's home was also destroyed, so I do sort of understand how you feel. I doubt it helps you much, but I want you to know, that even though I strongly disagree with your comments the vast majority of the time, I do feel very strongly what you experienced was wrong. I agree with Mike's idea, and if I can help rebuild Ahmet or his neighbors homes, I would actually be interested in doing so. I'd like to visit Kosovo and meet with the local population, and I think it’s a wonderful idea.
Why not turn all this around and start thinking about doing some stuff like that.
Email me at lazslow@hotmail.com if anyone is interested in doing these sorts of things.
I'm going to add to Luciano's comments, a Serbian Neo-Nazi is about as retarded as a Jewish Neo-Nazi, and yes I've met both and it never ceases to amaze me.
As far as the Mormons go, maybe they ought to think about moving into Islamic countries that allow multiple wives, then they can get back to their roots, ha ha. They are pretty silly, but I find religion silly in general for the most part. Leave those poor people alone. They're weird, but not dangerous (for the most part).
Mike - "A good way forward would be for a grassroots movement of Serbs and Albanians to work at mutually rebuilding homes and religious sites that have been vandalized and destroyed."
That is a really good idea if it could work in reality (who knows?). But if it had enough people participating to keep the hardline morons at bay, it would be great.
I agree with much of what you said. Basically people all want the same things, and much of the problem is about tolerance, understanding and forgiveness. If I felt threatened and cornered perhaps through fear I would end up following hardliners myself just to feel 'safe'.
People need to feel safe before they can see any alternatives, and I'm not sure how safe people in Kosovo feel right now.
From generation to generation, between all ethnic groups in the Balkans and for hundreds and hundreds of years, hatred is perpetuated. Shall we point the finger at the Ottoman Turks, Austria-Hungary, The Black Hand, Partisans, Ustache, Communists, Germans, Muslim Albanians in the Nazi Skanderbeg Division and the three Stooges: Izetbegovic, Tudjman and Milosevic just to name a few. We could go on and on and on. Since many seem to want to continue to hate and to teach your children the same, maybe the rest of the world should ignore the Balkans (and for that matter the Middle East) and just let you all fight to the death and the one that survives is the winner.
All acts of violence against houses of worship - Christian (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant), Muslim, Jewish, should be condemned.
Ahmet, I'm not Serb as you know, but I am sorry for the destruction of your property that your parents worked hard to build for you and your family. I'm sorry for what Serbs did to ordinary people, both in Kosovo and elsewhere in the name of their identity, and in the name of the Orthodox Church. And while I am equally upset at the ongoing retaliatory attacks made by Albanians against churches of my faith, and against ordinary Serb families and properties, we should be inspired by Tadic's move a few weeks ago to take responsibility for our own side and own up to them. I don't care who needs to "go first" in the round of apologies, as long as they are said and as long as we move towards some idea of reconciliation and improvement in the future, that's all that counts.
A good way forward would be for a grassroots movement of Serbs and Albanians to work at mutually rebuilding homes and religious sites that have been vandalized and destroyed.
Ahmet,
After what you and your familly went through I think all your post reflect an admirable moderation. You have all my sympathy. Good luck to you!!
Ahmet,
I would remind you that it was YOU who was asking why people were not doing any condemning in their comments. When you get some condemnation on what you misinterpret as a "travesty" - a dictionary will give you a correct definition for that word - you don't like the truth! Make up your mind!
If by 'milosheviq' you mean 'Milosevic', I condemn him for being a Communist. I condemn all Communists whether they claim Serb nationality or whatever other one. I don't discriminate in that way. A Commie is a Commie and I never supported any Commies in my life. That you assume that Milosevic is supported by me is categorically incorrect and anyone who knows me personally knows what I think of Communists and I am consistent about that. If a Commie does something bad, I personally say "I told you so" and I never trusted them even before any war took place. The British and Americans were happy to materially support and see Communism in Yugoslavia during WW2, so you also have to consider who put them in power in the first place. If my own father was a Communist, I would hate him for it, but thankfully he is not. If Communists being bad is a surprise to you, then welcome to the real world.
Your personal situation does not concern me because I can, to use parlance from poker card players, take what you have said and then easily raise the ante with what I can say. A blown up house is nothing because I can demonstrate to you more blown up and burned down (Serb) houses than you can in any personal argument you could raise. If you struggle with understanding what the words "vandalism" and "travesty" actually mean - and it seems so in what you have written because neither word applies to the facts of the article - then I cannot help you, although I would recommend an English dictionary.
stevo,
I will not condem anyhthing until you condem what the butcher/terrorist (milosheviq) of balkans did to K-Alb.
My parents worked all their lives to built a house for me and my two brothers and within half an hour on Aprill 1998 serbian police and paramilitaries leveled to the ground.That house for me was church/petriarch/monastery,vatican and everything else that you could think of. So stop preaching me about what I should condem.
Good joke, Ahmet! Nice one! You say: "We Albaninas never had a problem with religion tolarence..." - right, except for the massive list of churches in Kosovo province vandalised, destroyed, or burned down by Albanian terrorists. You must be laughing your head off! And then a poster stuck onto a building is considered by you as "vandalism"? You mentioned Kosovo first in the comments on the article, so why don't you condemn the Albanian-led terrorism in Kosovo that has caused so much destruction to church property? That is vandalism! If it was happening against non-Serbs, that destruction of churches and properties in Kosovo and people being forced to live in ghettoes would be considered a scandal.
I was made to beleive that serbs are the defenders of christanity, but it seems that serbs don't care much about religion at all, they just think they can dupe Europe on beleiving them when Kosova issue is on table.We Albaninas never had a problem with religion tolarence and never in history did we have amongst Alb, any problems with worshiping what ever your heart desires.Shame on these punks for vandalizing the church.I don't see any one from serb camp condeming this act of travesty.
I cant help but agree that Serbia needs to ensure that all citizens are protected from dangerous organisations, i.e. Nacionalni Stroj, 7th Day Adventists etc etc
They are ALL destructive to the fabric of Serbian society
I cant help but agree that Serbia needs to ensure that all citizens are protected from dangerous organisations, i.e. Nacionalni Stroj, 7th Day Adventists etc etc
They are ALL destructive to the fabric of Serbian society
I was made to beleive that serbs are the defenders of christanity, but it seems that serbs don't care much about religion at all, they just think they can dupe Europe on beleiving them when Kosova issue is on table.We Albaninas never had a problem with religion tolarence and never in history did we have amongst Alb, any problems with worshiping what ever your heart desires.Shame on these punks for vandalizing the church.I don't see any one from serb camp condeming this act of travesty.
Good joke, Ahmet! Nice one! You say: "We Albaninas never had a problem with religion tolarence..." - right, except for the massive list of churches in Kosovo province vandalised, destroyed, or burned down by Albanian terrorists. You must be laughing your head off! And then a poster stuck onto a building is considered by you as "vandalism"? You mentioned Kosovo first in the comments on the article, so why don't you condemn the Albanian-led terrorism in Kosovo that has caused so much destruction to church property? That is vandalism! If it was happening against non-Serbs, that destruction of churches and properties in Kosovo and people being forced to live in ghettoes would be considered a scandal.
stevo,
I will not condem anyhthing until you condem what the butcher/terrorist (milosheviq) of balkans did to K-Alb.
My parents worked all their lives to built a house for me and my two brothers and within half an hour on Aprill 1998 serbian police and paramilitaries leveled to the ground.That house for me was church/petriarch/monastery,vatican and everything else that you could think of. So stop preaching me about what I should condem.
Ahmet,
I would remind you that it was YOU who was asking why people were not doing any condemning in their comments. When you get some condemnation on what you misinterpret as a "travesty" - a dictionary will give you a correct definition for that word - you don't like the truth! Make up your mind!
If by 'milosheviq' you mean 'Milosevic', I condemn him for being a Communist. I condemn all Communists whether they claim Serb nationality or whatever other one. I don't discriminate in that way. A Commie is a Commie and I never supported any Commies in my life. That you assume that Milosevic is supported by me is categorically incorrect and anyone who knows me personally knows what I think of Communists and I am consistent about that. If a Commie does something bad, I personally say "I told you so" and I never trusted them even before any war took place. The British and Americans were happy to materially support and see Communism in Yugoslavia during WW2, so you also have to consider who put them in power in the first place. If my own father was a Communist, I would hate him for it, but thankfully he is not. If Communists being bad is a surprise to you, then welcome to the real world.
Your personal situation does not concern me because I can, to use parlance from poker card players, take what you have said and then easily raise the ante with what I can say. A blown up house is nothing because I can demonstrate to you more blown up and burned down (Serb) houses than you can in any personal argument you could raise. If you struggle with understanding what the words "vandalism" and "travesty" actually mean - and it seems so in what you have written because neither word applies to the facts of the article - then I cannot help you, although I would recommend an English dictionary.
All acts of violence against houses of worship - Christian (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant), Muslim, Jewish, should be condemned.
Ahmet, I'm not Serb as you know, but I am sorry for the destruction of your property that your parents worked hard to build for you and your family. I'm sorry for what Serbs did to ordinary people, both in Kosovo and elsewhere in the name of their identity, and in the name of the Orthodox Church. And while I am equally upset at the ongoing retaliatory attacks made by Albanians against churches of my faith, and against ordinary Serb families and properties, we should be inspired by Tadic's move a few weeks ago to take responsibility for our own side and own up to them. I don't care who needs to "go first" in the round of apologies, as long as they are said and as long as we move towards some idea of reconciliation and improvement in the future, that's all that counts.
A good way forward would be for a grassroots movement of Serbs and Albanians to work at mutually rebuilding homes and religious sites that have been vandalized and destroyed.
Ahmet,
After what you and your familly went through I think all your post reflect an admirable moderation. You have all my sympathy. Good luck to you!!
From generation to generation, between all ethnic groups in the Balkans and for hundreds and hundreds of years, hatred is perpetuated. Shall we point the finger at the Ottoman Turks, Austria-Hungary, The Black Hand, Partisans, Ustache, Communists, Germans, Muslim Albanians in the Nazi Skanderbeg Division and the three Stooges: Izetbegovic, Tudjman and Milosevic just to name a few. We could go on and on and on. Since many seem to want to continue to hate and to teach your children the same, maybe the rest of the world should ignore the Balkans (and for that matter the Middle East) and just let you all fight to the death and the one that survives is the winner.
Mike - "A good way forward would be for a grassroots movement of Serbs and Albanians to work at mutually rebuilding homes and religious sites that have been vandalized and destroyed."
That is a really good idea if it could work in reality (who knows?). But if it had enough people participating to keep the hardline morons at bay, it would be great.
I agree with much of what you said. Basically people all want the same things, and much of the problem is about tolerance, understanding and forgiveness. If I felt threatened and cornered perhaps through fear I would end up following hardliners myself just to feel 'safe'.
People need to feel safe before they can see any alternatives, and I'm not sure how safe people in Kosovo feel right now.
I'm also going to offer my apologies for the destruction of your property, I do believe the Serbian government should pay to repair all the damage done to people's homes. My brother in law's home was also destroyed, so I do sort of understand how you feel. I doubt it helps you much, but I want you to know, that even though I strongly disagree with your comments the vast majority of the time, I do feel very strongly what you experienced was wrong. I agree with Mike's idea, and if I can help rebuild Ahmet or his neighbors homes, I would actually be interested in doing so. I'd like to visit Kosovo and meet with the local population, and I think it’s a wonderful idea.
Why not turn all this around and start thinking about doing some stuff like that.
Email me at lazslow@hotmail.com if anyone is interested in doing these sorts of things.
I'm going to add to Luciano's comments, a Serbian Neo-Nazi is about as retarded as a Jewish Neo-Nazi, and yes I've met both and it never ceases to amaze me.
As far as the Mormons go, maybe they ought to think about moving into Islamic countries that allow multiple wives, then they can get back to their roots, ha ha. They are pretty silly, but I find religion silly in general for the most part. Leave those poor people alone. They're weird, but not dangerous (for the most part).
As a baptized member of the Orthodox Church, I condemn such intolerance! God is one, and so all Christians should be! The Orthodox Church is not perfect; the 7th day Adventists preach the keeping of the 7th day as Sabbath (Holy Day). In this they are correct, and our Church should do the same! I have read our Serbian Bible (Revised Standard Version) 3 times going on 4 and all throughout it the 7th day is mentioned as the Sabbath including Jesus example. He also held the 7th day as the Holy Sabbath, and in his words "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them" Matthew 5,17. What law? the ten commandments. Commandment #4; Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God.... The 7th day is Saturday, always has been, Saturday not Sunday is the Sabbath. 100's of years after Christ the Church changed it (without Biblical authority) to Sunday so as to distance themselves from the Jews. Problem is that the Jews have that issue right. I believe the Orthodox Church should change the Sabbath back to the proper day, and see how God will bless us for our obedience. I am not endorsing the 7th Adventist Church, I disagree with them on many Biblical issues, but a fact is a fact.
Many of these Christian churches were giving aid to the Muslims (and some of it going to the Muslim separatist armies) while denying any aid to suffering Serbs - including refugees.
And as another person pointed out - hanging a poster is not the same as destroying property. A poster can easily be removed and there is no material damage or violence.
The message was how these types of churches tend to divide Serbs during a time when much of the world is attacking them. And these sort of churches have not done much to help Serbs - they only want more members for their movements.
Where is the help for the sick, the homeless, rebuilding, cleaning up the neighborhoods, etc.?
I cant help but agree that Serbia needs to ensure that all citizens are protected from dangerous organisations, i.e. Nacionalni Stroj, 7th Day Adventists etc etc
They are ALL destructive to the fabric of Serbian society
I was made to beleive that serbs are the defenders of christanity, but it seems that serbs don't care much about religion at all, they just think they can dupe Europe on beleiving them when Kosova issue is on table.We Albaninas never had a problem with religion tolarence and never in history did we have amongst Alb, any problems with worshiping what ever your heart desires.Shame on these punks for vandalizing the church.I don't see any one from serb camp condeming this act of travesty.
Good joke, Ahmet! Nice one! You say: "We Albaninas never had a problem with religion tolarence..." - right, except for the massive list of churches in Kosovo province vandalised, destroyed, or burned down by Albanian terrorists. You must be laughing your head off! And then a poster stuck onto a building is considered by you as "vandalism"? You mentioned Kosovo first in the comments on the article, so why don't you condemn the Albanian-led terrorism in Kosovo that has caused so much destruction to church property? That is vandalism! If it was happening against non-Serbs, that destruction of churches and properties in Kosovo and people being forced to live in ghettoes would be considered a scandal.
stevo,
I will not condem anyhthing until you condem what the butcher/terrorist (milosheviq) of balkans did to K-Alb.
My parents worked all their lives to built a house for me and my two brothers and within half an hour on Aprill 1998 serbian police and paramilitaries leveled to the ground.That house for me was church/petriarch/monastery,vatican and everything else that you could think of. So stop preaching me about what I should condem.
Ahmet,
I would remind you that it was YOU who was asking why people were not doing any condemning in their comments. When you get some condemnation on what you misinterpret as a "travesty" - a dictionary will give you a correct definition for that word - you don't like the truth! Make up your mind!
If by 'milosheviq' you mean 'Milosevic', I condemn him for being a Communist. I condemn all Communists whether they claim Serb nationality or whatever other one. I don't discriminate in that way. A Commie is a Commie and I never supported any Commies in my life. That you assume that Milosevic is supported by me is categorically incorrect and anyone who knows me personally knows what I think of Communists and I am consistent about that. If a Commie does something bad, I personally say "I told you so" and I never trusted them even before any war took place. The British and Americans were happy to materially support and see Communism in Yugoslavia during WW2, so you also have to consider who put them in power in the first place. If my own father was a Communist, I would hate him for it, but thankfully he is not. If Communists being bad is a surprise to you, then welcome to the real world.
Your personal situation does not concern me because I can, to use parlance from poker card players, take what you have said and then easily raise the ante with what I can say. A blown up house is nothing because I can demonstrate to you more blown up and burned down (Serb) houses than you can in any personal argument you could raise. If you struggle with understanding what the words "vandalism" and "travesty" actually mean - and it seems so in what you have written because neither word applies to the facts of the article - then I cannot help you, although I would recommend an English dictionary.
All acts of violence against houses of worship - Christian (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant), Muslim, Jewish, should be condemned.
Ahmet, I'm not Serb as you know, but I am sorry for the destruction of your property that your parents worked hard to build for you and your family. I'm sorry for what Serbs did to ordinary people, both in Kosovo and elsewhere in the name of their identity, and in the name of the Orthodox Church. And while I am equally upset at the ongoing retaliatory attacks made by Albanians against churches of my faith, and against ordinary Serb families and properties, we should be inspired by Tadic's move a few weeks ago to take responsibility for our own side and own up to them. I don't care who needs to "go first" in the round of apologies, as long as they are said and as long as we move towards some idea of reconciliation and improvement in the future, that's all that counts.
A good way forward would be for a grassroots movement of Serbs and Albanians to work at mutually rebuilding homes and religious sites that have been vandalized and destroyed.
Ahmet,
After what you and your familly went through I think all your post reflect an admirable moderation. You have all my sympathy. Good luck to you!!
From generation to generation, between all ethnic groups in the Balkans and for hundreds and hundreds of years, hatred is perpetuated. Shall we point the finger at the Ottoman Turks, Austria-Hungary, The Black Hand, Partisans, Ustache, Communists, Germans, Muslim Albanians in the Nazi Skanderbeg Division and the three Stooges: Izetbegovic, Tudjman and Milosevic just to name a few. We could go on and on and on. Since many seem to want to continue to hate and to teach your children the same, maybe the rest of the world should ignore the Balkans (and for that matter the Middle East) and just let you all fight to the death and the one that survives is the winner.
Mike - "A good way forward would be for a grassroots movement of Serbs and Albanians to work at mutually rebuilding homes and religious sites that have been vandalized and destroyed."
That is a really good idea if it could work in reality (who knows?). But if it had enough people participating to keep the hardline morons at bay, it would be great.
I agree with much of what you said. Basically people all want the same things, and much of the problem is about tolerance, understanding and forgiveness. If I felt threatened and cornered perhaps through fear I would end up following hardliners myself just to feel 'safe'.
People need to feel safe before they can see any alternatives, and I'm not sure how safe people in Kosovo feel right now.
I'm also going to offer my apologies for the destruction of your property, I do believe the Serbian government should pay to repair all the damage done to people's homes. My brother in law's home was also destroyed, so I do sort of understand how you feel. I doubt it helps you much, but I want you to know, that even though I strongly disagree with your comments the vast majority of the time, I do feel very strongly what you experienced was wrong. I agree with Mike's idea, and if I can help rebuild Ahmet or his neighbors homes, I would actually be interested in doing so. I'd like to visit Kosovo and meet with the local population, and I think it’s a wonderful idea.
Why not turn all this around and start thinking about doing some stuff like that.
Email me at lazslow@hotmail.com if anyone is interested in doing these sorts of things.
I'm going to add to Luciano's comments, a Serbian Neo-Nazi is about as retarded as a Jewish Neo-Nazi, and yes I've met both and it never ceases to amaze me.
As far as the Mormons go, maybe they ought to think about moving into Islamic countries that allow multiple wives, then they can get back to their roots, ha ha. They are pretty silly, but I find religion silly in general for the most part. Leave those poor people alone. They're weird, but not dangerous (for the most part).
As a baptized member of the Orthodox Church, I condemn such intolerance! God is one, and so all Christians should be! The Orthodox Church is not perfect; the 7th day Adventists preach the keeping of the 7th day as Sabbath (Holy Day). In this they are correct, and our Church should do the same! I have read our Serbian Bible (Revised Standard Version) 3 times going on 4 and all throughout it the 7th day is mentioned as the Sabbath including Jesus example. He also held the 7th day as the Holy Sabbath, and in his words "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them" Matthew 5,17. What law? the ten commandments. Commandment #4; Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God.... The 7th day is Saturday, always has been, Saturday not Sunday is the Sabbath. 100's of years after Christ the Church changed it (without Biblical authority) to Sunday so as to distance themselves from the Jews. Problem is that the Jews have that issue right. I believe the Orthodox Church should change the Sabbath back to the proper day, and see how God will bless us for our obedience. I am not endorsing the 7th Adventist Church, I disagree with them on many Biblical issues, but a fact is a fact.
Many of these Christian churches were giving aid to the Muslims (and some of it going to the Muslim separatist armies) while denying any aid to suffering Serbs - including refugees.
And as another person pointed out - hanging a poster is not the same as destroying property. A poster can easily be removed and there is no material damage or violence.
The message was how these types of churches tend to divide Serbs during a time when much of the world is attacking them. And these sort of churches have not done much to help Serbs - they only want more members for their movements.
Where is the help for the sick, the homeless, rebuilding, cleaning up the neighborhoods, etc.?
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