“Greater Serbia idea still alive"

its not greater Serbia its Serb land anyway for centuries krajina and half of Bosnia was sighned so they could connect to Serbia its all legal but its illegal to give Kosovo to the Albanians thats Serb land so this person talking about greater Serbia has no clue what they are talking about.

A Greater Serbia will exist once all countries in which Serbs reside become members of the EU.

Your story puts an interesting spin on things but unfortunately your bias is obvious.
Serbians want a greater Serbia just as much as Croatians want a greater Ustasha.

The only reason operation storm was a success was because croats had un and nato on there side. Remember serbs controlled 1/3 of croation and 75% of bosnia how much did croats controll of SERBIA

This is all propaganda. A vicious one against Serbs. Orchestarted by the West. They have lost the plot. Russia is back confident and stronger than ever.

Greater Serbia, Greater Croatia, Greater Albania ~

Let's look at the WHOLE picture once again -

Who really wants what? Two of the three is accurate. Serbia wants to keep what is rightfully hers.

After serving in the Yugoslav services for 20 years, it's really amazing that someone who has been pro-Yu for so many years has the audacity to speak, do and act as she does. Her words, thoughts & actions don't hold water against the reality of it all. Check yourself!

No it cannot be! Really! The Nacertanije is alive and well than. What a relief!
Can someone tell how many craddles of Serb civilisation are there?

Dudu,
Yes Croatia can live well from all those tourists. I visited it myself from Rovinj to Dubrovnik and Caftat (20 south of Dubrovnik greatly destroyed by the Serbs). I am very happy for the Croates, smart friendly people making great economic progress. And what is the most important: for the last 12 some years they are finally masters in their own house.

Yes Afrim,
America the good shepherd is and remains in the neighborhood to keep out the bad wolfs.

JOHN; time for a reality check! CROATIA did not exist in 1848 it was a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. In fact, Croatia as a independent nation only existed for a brief time in the middle ages. Don't you realize with the Internet anyone can verify or discredit that in minutes, what are you trying to prove?

"uniting all Serbian states defeat militarily in 1995 after the Dayton Agreement and the Storm Operation in Croatia.”

Operation storm was not a military victory since Krajina was demiliterised, secondly if VRS was defeated then why do Serbs control half of Bosnia and probably more?

This person who wrote about Serbia in such a provocative manner should not be taken notice of.

Greater Serbia is of course still alive just as are many other ideologies but unlike other countries the Serbs have decided not to engage in this idea activly.

(meaning Greater Serbia)

What then is Republika Srpska about? Why were muslims and croats ethnically cleansed from that land? Why was there an attempt to link this land with the Krajina (where serbs were armed from Belgrade) and annex Osijek and Vukovar by the JNA?

We have to face up to what was done in the name of Serbs. And the call of the nationalists is still not a small one.

Dodik, Dodik, Dodik.

Was Dodik in debt or in the black, значи није у дуг, when he became leader? Does personal debt play a role in state decision making as a leader? If he splits for independence then the employment rate in the Serb Republic will go down because of the amount of border patrols needed. Is there a budget for it? If not, joining Serbia or Montenegro would reduce the amount of money needed for governing, since the Serb Republic would only need to provide representatives to Belgrade or Podgorica, if they accept.

«...the Serbs have decided not to engage in this idea activly.»

In 1990, they did! Only in a few months, 100s of Bosnian and Croatian villages and town were destroyed, 50 000 civilians were killed in territories that the Serbs wanted to create Greater Serbia.

Serbs are lucky & desperate to sign the Dayton Peace Plan because they were very close to losing a greater part of B-H.They should thank the U.S. U.S supported the Serbs during the beginning of the Yugoslav war thinking that the Serbian controlled army would over-run Croatia & B-H.The Croats had NO NO arms and ended up defeating Serbia(how embarissing) Croatia now is much stronger then 10-15 years ago while Serbia is weaker now than ever before...To create a Greater Serbia over Croatia...you have to be kidding..forget it. The Serbs are so ashamed of themselves that they don't want to admit that operation storm (OLUJA) was carried out by Croat forces they say it was "America" very funny & bizare that the Hague have captured Croat Generals for the operation "Oluja"not American.

Croatia can live well from 12 million tourist, per capita one of the best in the world.
Cheers/zivili

The serbs in Bosnia owned 67% of all the land before Izetbegovic declared secession. The VRS were never defeated by the Bosnian Army indeed the only thing that brought the VRS to heel was the destruction of its communications systems by NATO bombing. It is about time the Croats admitted they were wrong in backing the Ilamist izetbegovic whom Tudjman described as "lost croat".No amount of pressure will unite Bosnia it is a basket case, where foreign aid has been pilidged by the Sarajevo politicians and placed in their foreign bank accounts shame on the international community, sadness for all who live in this tormented land. Where all the bosniaks in west mostar where are the sarajevo serbs?

Victor - Croatia as it currently stands is a Greater Croatia. Why not give Krajina back to it's rightful owners, the serbs and let them decide if they want to become an independent state?

silly me, i forgot. Croatia has one rule for itslef , another rule for others.

Funny, how it's called self determination on one end of the spectrum, and occupation in the other...

Just depends on what side of American foreign policy you're on....

BTW Victor, behind every claim of what Serbs have done in Bosnia, is a jealous Croat wanting the exact same thing...The only difference is, that they're politically wiser...

Greater Serbia? So Islam has infltrated every corner of Bosnian life - even supposedly non-political organisations. This person suggests a unified Bosnia? If that is the case, then they support repression as it's a stated aim of Silajdzic to continue Izetbegovic's policies which were to turn Bosnia into a muslim state. Why would a non-muslim want to live in a muslim state????

Bosnia will never unify.

Serbs can talk as much as they want about democracy and how the serbs are democrats but this time ONE OF YOUR VERY OWN PEOPLE, Sonja Biserko, is telling to the world that the serbs still have dark ideas for their neighbors... you still live with the ideas of Milosevic, to destroy the neighbors just like you did in the 90's, and create a creature called 'greater serbia'.
But anyway, that will only stay a dream because AMERICA is in the neighborood and will not allow any such thing.

Afrim, yes: Sonja Biserko is a Serbian citizen and she is free to say and think what she wants. Just as other are allowed to talk and fantasize about a 'greater Serbia'.

I really don't see why this is newsworthy, nor why some people here start some heated debate... about nothing.

The borders were created with no regard to ethnic groups. Therefore there will naturally be desires to fix the improper borders.

Furthermore, the Serbs did not start the war. The Croats started ethnic cleansing in the Summer of 1991. It was self defense from methods that the Croats continued to do what they started in 1941.

This idea of Greater Serbia is a myth bandied around as propaganda as a pretext to destroy Milosevic and his regime. I'm sure many Serbs see the situation as i do, thus: If ethnic minorities in Yugoslavia, such as the Croats in Croatia, are allowed to break away and form their own country, then why aren't the Serbs in Krajina allowed to do the same from Croatia, or the Serbs in Bosnia? The Croats wanted to have a country where they are the dominant ethnic group, so why should the large ethnic Serb minority want to live in Croatia? Why not declare independence. DOUBLE STANDARDS. Every other ethnic group was allowed to break away from the larger country, Yugoslavia, yet when the Serbs as a minority in Croatia or Bosnia wanted to do the same, they were denied this option by the international community. It was in the national interestsof the US, Germany and the UK to NOT allow the Serbs self determination in either of thee countries.That's the only reason why it wasn't allowed, so to Victor and his buddies, spare me the emotional, illogical reasons for denying Serbs independence in these countries.

Can anyone give me a logical reason why they shouldn't be allowed independence in Croatia or Bosnia?

Croatia can live off of 12 million tourists because of GREATER CROATIA backed by Germany & the US seized southern Dalmatia which was never part of Croatia. My neighbor is a Dalmatian Serb whose family was "cleansed" from the Dubrovnik area. He is now awaiting the return of his ancestral lands by the Croatian government. I heard that in order to join the EU Croatia has to resettle refugees and return their lands and houses. Don't know how much truth there is to that but it would be a good start. As far as the Greater argument goes, I see no reason why Serbian lands that have been united in one state for 80+ years can't be united again. Today, with the blessing of the west we have a greater Croatia, and a huge push for greater Albania. The Albanians don't hide the fact that their goal is to unite all "Albanian lands" into one cooperative entity. The breakup of Yugoslavia was clearly orchestrated from the outside (Germany, US, UK) and these same forces do not want their work undone by Serbs who foolishly want to live together in one state or a confederation of states. One set of rules for Croatians, Albanians, Slavic Muslims and another for the Serbs. If the Serbs join the EU this heavy handed one sided approach will only deepen.

Afrim...
You can't seem to get around the fact that democratic societies and peoples represent different ideas and contradictions..It's what makes nations great...

If everybody agreed on everything, as you seem to suggest they should, it wouldn't be nothing more than a society built on bullying and intimidation..
The fact that she's got a cushy job for a well known institute, and gets paid for such statements, should answer more clearly, her motives...

As for Joe...
What was your point as far as the article is concerned?
as far as tourism goes, you'll need lots of money to pay off that brand new shiny army...

As for nice people Joe...
Yes..
If i was living in a sunny place and getting handed money, i too would be the most friendliest person on the planet...
The grandfather's dream of Serbians cleared out, not paying for those crimes, AND claiming to be victims, would make me a happy Croat also..

hopefully she´s one time in her life right!

yeah Afrim, ...that woman is a Serb as I think I have read somewhere...but, who says that Serbs are better than Albanians...you will find someone who says something wanted for a few dollars in every nation... just don´t take that too serious.

by the way, once again I get the impression B92 is eager to create some "dispute" to have a more interesting news-site...
instead of informing properly.

Zoran,

My family is from the Dubrovnik/Kotor region and my wife's family is from Krajina. There is a big difference between the two regions.

Krajina is still pretty much a wasteland covered in pro-Ustashe graffiti and burned out Orthodox Churches. The Croatian government did in fact rebuild the top section of my brother in law's home. He's currently living there, but for the most part the rest of the village is more or less a ghost town.

Dalmatia has always been relatively safe and Serbs and Croatians have traditionally gotten along fairly well in the region. For example, my cousin's father was the highest Judge in Dubrovnik. My cousin did have one close call with death during the war, but what he did was very dangerous. He's an attorney of course. So he sued some Croatian Ustashe gangsters for Wrongful Death in the killing a Serb he knew (Sorta crazy thing to do during the war, but my cousin is fearless for a 70 year old man). The Ustashe came right into the middle of the Courtroom and threw him to the ground and put a gun to his head. They would have killed him except for the intervention of the Prosecutor, whom my cousin went to law school with so many years ago. The Prosecutor called his contacts in the army and had the Ustashe called off. They did in fact spend something like 2 weeks in jail. However of course, one of them is now Chief of Police and I'm not sure about the others.

The issue with Greater Serbia, Albania, Croatia or whatever is the simple reality that being a minority in the Balkans is very bad for your health. What happened in Krajina was shameful. The Serbs there knew what was in store for them and they were scared. The honest truth is in those areas where Serbs were not a threatened minority, there was no war and no violence.

I personally think there's nothing wrong with peacefully supporting a closer relationship between Serbia and RS. It seems to me that many Croats would also like closer ties to Croatia. I believe that we should be working more on this together and peacefully. I also believe that if Bosnia is divided, then Sandzak should go to the Bosniaks as compensation. If the Bosniaks wanted to live in a multi-ethnic society, they shouldn't have asked to leave Yugoslavia. I find the argument for keeping Bosnia intact very weak. The majority of people living there would like to divide it (Serbs and Croats). Its only the Bosniaks who want to keep it together.

Its only natural for Serbs not to want to be a minority in countries that have a tradition of abusing us. For that very reason, I understand very well the desire of the Albanians of Kosovo not to live under Belgrade rule, so I support them in that. However, calling it "Greater Serbia" like we want to steal land is just insulting. People from outside the Balkans have a very difficult time understanding what it means to be a minority in that region.

In summary, if the EU were serious about peace in the region, they would let everyone into the EU at the same time and render the boarder disputes moot. All the wars of the 90's were absolutely 100% pointless. Yugoslavia would have been a far better partner for the EU then the mess we have now and all the lives that were destroyed. Luciano is right of course, the EU will be our "Greater Serbia". Why the hell did we need to wars of the 90's just to all join in one country again? If the Bosniaks and Croats were upset about Serbian domination of Yugoslavia, just wait till they get in the EU. They will have even less say in the EU then they did in YU. Had we kept YU together, we might have been a serious force in the EU, a regional player that other East European countries could have gravitated too. But then again, maybe that was the whole reason the West was so quick to carve up what could have been a strong regional influence?

What is truly frightening about the rhetoric coming from Sarajevo is that the Bosnian Muslim regime is spending so much time and energy to discredit and then destroy the Serb entity.

They are using their tried and true propaganda tactics which helped them win wide support in the civil war. Quick, easily understood soundbite statements that we in the West can understand.

"Republika Srpska was created on genocide..." and now "Greater Serbian nationalists are in Belgrade." These are being repeated over and over again.

TYet, the more the Bosnian Muslims start whipping up ethnic tensions again, after 10 years of peace, the more Serbs in Bosnia will react to keep their justly earned gains that they sacrificed so much for.

There is peace in Bosnia and no need to change the deal that was signed in 1995.

Whipping up ethnic hatreds as is being done by the Sarajevo authorities, should be loudly condemned by all peace loving people.

RE: Yugoslav Civil War

Croatia defeated Serbia in a war?!!

Milosevic pulled his Generals and army out of Krajina, double crossed Mladic and Kardadzic in B&H allowing the Croatian army under US direction and bombing to break through United Nations Lines and take over the Krajina Region which was under UN Protection. This was orchestrated under the direction of Holbrook.


This was against the UN Charter, and the world stood silent as Croatian troops killed old men & women in the streets and bombed KNIN to a pulp where the Serbian Army already evacuated.
Ante Gotovina is not guilty of any crime , he is a General taking orders from the true criminal,Franjo Tudjman.

«z,,,so to Victor and his buddies, spare me the emotional, illogical reasons for denying Serbs independence in these countries.»

As ffar as I know Serbs were a minority in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo, before the war started. If the Serbs would have accepted the independence of Croatia and Bosnia, the war would have been avoided and the Serbs would live peacefully in the Brajina and in Bosnia. Rebelling against a sovereign republik was the best way to create chaos and a war. Considering what the Serbs have done against their neighbours is a scar that would take a long time to heal.

Many Serbs talk about so-called “Western double standards”, but in fact they argue for double standards when they defend the old Milosevic-Seselj-Mladic-Karadzic-Arkan positions.

If the Serbs “got the right to declare independence in Bosnia and Croatia”, why Albanians cannot declare independence in Kosovo? Or Mulsims declare independence in Sandzak? Or Aromanians in North-Eastern Serbia? Or Hungarians and Croats in Vojvodina? And so on…

The only argument that would justify Serb nationalist positions would be that the Serb Orthodox Church and its followers are morally superior and “more sacred” than the Catholic Croatian Orthodox Church and the Islam of the Bosniaks and Albanians.

But this argument goes completely against the Catholic-Protestant, now Secular, Western World, which was separated from the East Eurasia and Orthodoxy since the Great Schism of 1054. That’s why America, Germany and England don’t agree with Serbia... or Russia.

I have good reasons to believe that Sonja Biserko is a Croatian former communist aparachnik who has lived in Belgrade since before the secession of Croatia. I'm sure she makes an excellent living denigrating Serbs and that her Sorosian bank account is bulging. In any other country but Serbia she would have been escorted out a long time ago, or worse. But Serbs have always been very tolerant, regardless of how others like to paint them as being the opposite. Biserko is a case in point.

a quite interesting link providing a lot of further interesting info:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/07/ending_the_balkan_quagmire_at.html

in contrast to the threats spoken out by those Albanians here:
www.kosovocompromise.com

Sonja Biserko!!!! Now that is really funny.
Serbia is protecting its sovereign territory, protecting its borders and its citizens and Sonja is babbling about a Greater Serbia!
I think Sonja must have got confused with Greater Albania!
Is Sonja being accommodated to create an unpeaceful situation because Serbia's legitimacy for its sovereign territory is finally being recognized thanks mainly to Russia.

I think this time Biserko has gone too far. To talk about Greater Serbia when Greater Albania is already a fait accompli and Serbia is being cut into little morsels is just a bad sense of humour and an insult to our people chased from
all over ex-Yugoslavia. I think that the President and the Prime Minister should go on and proceed to defend Serbia's territory as they did so far, and continue to irritate Biserko and the likes.

Of course the idea is still alive. So What?

Vuk said: "Operation storm was not a military victory since Krajina was demiliterised"

Your propaganda is worse than I thought.

It's funny how everyone keeps talking about Greater Serbia but Serbia keeps getting smaller and smaller . This is classic reverse Propaganda that was perfected by CNN , ABC , NBC and BBC today .

Alex
You stated that Serbs controlled 75% of B-H 1/3 of Croatia & Croatia controlled no Serbian land. (1) With all the military might the Serbs should of controlled 100% of B-H and same goes for Croatia.(2) Croatia has absolutely no interest in Serbian land & they admit as civilized people that it's not theirs. The Croats & Slovenes done all the hard work & were the slaves for greater serbia which was called YUGOSLAVIA. Sorry guys(Serbs) that your fairytale dream has been shattered. Also the UK (English dominated) was NEVER on the Croat side they tried hard to keep Yugoslavia together just as they are trying even harder to keep the UK states together. The Serbs are small people & are trying to follow the footsteps of the English people. Lets not forget that the Serbian royal family reside in England where their lobby is very powerfull. If the daiton peace plan was not signed The Croat & B-H forces would of liberated over 90% of B-H within weeks max., Milosevic knew that so he put pen to paper. The Serbs got NO WERE in the 4 years of conflict in Croatia, The Croats restored full order(liberation) within days. Croatia will have similar acconomies to (in future) to Slovenia,Czech Rep,Hungary while the Serbs can join the Macedonian,Romanian,Bulgarian club.
Cheers
Dudu

MYTH: The Serbian-Croatian border was drawn up secretly by Tito, a Croatian, in 1943 benefiting Croatia at the expense of Serbia.

REALITY: Croatia's border with Serbia is essentially the same as in 1848 and 1918 with the exception of those lands taken from Croatia and given to Serbia and Montenegro under both Yugoslav regimes.

This mythology is a recent creation of the Serbian government and has been given wide circulation by Serbian apologists Nora Beloff and David Martin. The purpose of the myth is to stress to the world that the borders of the former Yugoslav republics are simply administrative boundaries with no historical significance. Once this myth is taken as fact the argument follows that such meaningless borders are subject to negotiation and change, in favor of Serbia.

The reality is that Croatia today has roughly the same borders as in 1848. Serbia has increased its borders after every one of its many wars since 1813. Today Serbia controls more territory than it has in its entire history. In the north it has annexed the lands of the Hungarians and Croatians. In the south two hundred thousand Serbs rule over two million ethnic Albanians in the absolute police state of Kosova. Montenegro has become nothing more than a Serbian province.

The myth that Serbian lands are held by Croatia was used by the Serbian government to launch a war of aggression to seize valuable gas and oil fields, rail and shipping corridors and port facilities. Eastern Slavonia, where Serbian aggression resulted in the total devastation of the ancient city of Vukovar, had a Serbian population of 16.4% according to 1991 census. Dubrovnik, which underwent months of siege by Serbian forces, had a Serbian population of only 6.2% in 1991. Neither region has ever been a part of Serbia.

"Biserko said Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Koštunica and the Serbian Orthodox Church were 'the main generators and promoters of the Greater Serbia idea'"
This largly true today. However, this is not a problem exclusive to Serbia in the Balkans. (See references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Serbia)
Racist religious nationalism is human culture at it's lowest.

Since the gathering of Yugoslavia under Tito was involuntary, and ultimatly led to a clash of nationalism once again, maybe a step by step voluntary cooperation will by time put an end to the most serious tension. But it will require a commitment to democracy and a stand against nationalism to realize it.

The answer of what happens when nationalist schismogenesis is applied, is proven in blood throughout history.

Can a EU umbrella over the Balkans help assist this process and give it enough "objectivity" to make it work?

Comment for

Daniel

Yes Krajina was demilitarised ! All of the generals and weapons were either gone or locked up. The croats were fighting farmers and old people who had not managed to leave, trust me i know my granmother passed in that operation. Its not propoganda its an agreement between NATO and Milosovic which went horribly wrong. Seek the truth.

In fact, if Serbia recognized that its legitimate territories are JUST CENTRAL SERBIA and VOJVODINA, and not one more square meter of territory, the Balkans should be a very better place to live.

And people should start to think in a more secular and agnostic way, because Serbia ≠ Serbian Orthodox Church.

If the Albanians realized that their territory is Albania and not one more square inch, then there might be peace in the Balkans!

To: Zoran.
Thanks for your comments. It may be a good example from you. My point was that (what I call) the racist religious nationalism of the Balkans has obviously been in the way of democracy. One can't have both nationalism and democracy at the same time.
One the other hand, it is, as can be shown in our time, difficult to sustain the idea of democracy if immigrants don't subscribe to the same values as the majority. But people will be very reluctant to assimilate if they are continuously
reminded of having different ethinc, religious, or national backgrounds. Especially when the ones they are supposed to assimilate to openly or subtly see them as the enemy. That's the problem of schismogenesis. Both enemies feed each others hatred. Don't interpret that as meaning that if there ever is a violant attack from a minority within a democracy, the majority is to blame. Because that wouldn't be true, as we just saw in London and Glasgow (even though this is seen as
reaction to UK's foreign policy).

I mentioned the EU simply because they can (may) be enough of a "objective" umbrella to bring people closer together, instead
of polarising us as human beings. But of course, it is always up to the people of each respective country. Just look at the state of nationalism in EU member Poland at the moment.

It's not that I have faith in the EU being such a terrific organisation, it's more about the concept.
Peace brokers have been discussing the concept of a EU model for Israel and the surrounding countries for a few years now, and leaders of all the respective countries have welcomed the proposition.

Serbia is doing a LOT at the moment to strengthen it's democratic bureaucracy, but how can it extend that idea outside of it's borders? It will need help.

Serbs are lucky & desperate to sign the Dayton Peace Plan because they were very close to losing a greater part of B-H.They should thank the U.S. U.S supported the Serbs during the beginning of the Yugoslav war thinking that the Serbian controlled army would over-run Croatia & B-H.The Croats had NO NO arms and ended up defeating Serbia(how embarissing) Croatia now is much stronger then 10-15 years ago while Serbia is weaker now than ever before...To create a Greater Serbia over Croatia...you have to be kidding..forget it. The Serbs are so ashamed of themselves that they don't want to admit that operation storm (OLUJA) was carried out by Croat forces they say it was "America" very funny & bizare that the Hague have captured Croat Generals for the operation "Oluja"not American.

Croatia can live well from 12 million tourist, per capita one of the best in the world.
Cheers/zivili

Serbs can talk as much as they want about democracy and how the serbs are democrats but this time ONE OF YOUR VERY OWN PEOPLE, Sonja Biserko, is telling to the world that the serbs still have dark ideas for their neighbors... you still live with the ideas of Milosevic, to destroy the neighbors just like you did in the 90's, and create a creature called 'greater serbia'.
But anyway, that will only stay a dream because AMERICA is in the neighborood and will not allow any such thing.

No it cannot be! Really! The Nacertanije is alive and well than. What a relief!
Can someone tell how many craddles of Serb civilisation are there?

Yes Afrim,
America the good shepherd is and remains in the neighborhood to keep out the bad wolfs.

This idea of Greater Serbia is a myth bandied around as propaganda as a pretext to destroy Milosevic and his regime. I'm sure many Serbs see the situation as i do, thus: If ethnic minorities in Yugoslavia, such as the Croats in Croatia, are allowed to break away and form their own country, then why aren't the Serbs in Krajina allowed to do the same from Croatia, or the Serbs in Bosnia? The Croats wanted to have a country where they are the dominant ethnic group, so why should the large ethnic Serb minority want to live in Croatia? Why not declare independence. DOUBLE STANDARDS. Every other ethnic group was allowed to break away from the larger country, Yugoslavia, yet when the Serbs as a minority in Croatia or Bosnia wanted to do the same, they were denied this option by the international community. It was in the national interestsof the US, Germany and the UK to NOT allow the Serbs self determination in either of thee countries.That's the only reason why it wasn't allowed, so to Victor and his buddies, spare me the emotional, illogical reasons for denying Serbs independence in these countries.

Can anyone give me a logical reason why they shouldn't be allowed independence in Croatia or Bosnia?

"uniting all Serbian states defeat militarily in 1995 after the Dayton Agreement and the Storm Operation in Croatia.”

Operation storm was not a military victory since Krajina was demiliterised, secondly if VRS was defeated then why do Serbs control half of Bosnia and probably more?

This person who wrote about Serbia in such a provocative manner should not be taken notice of.

Greater Serbia is of course still alive just as are many other ideologies but unlike other countries the Serbs have decided not to engage in this idea activly.

(meaning Greater Serbia)

What then is Republika Srpska about? Why were muslims and croats ethnically cleansed from that land? Why was there an attempt to link this land with the Krajina (where serbs were armed from Belgrade) and annex Osijek and Vukovar by the JNA?

We have to face up to what was done in the name of Serbs. And the call of the nationalists is still not a small one.

Dodik, Dodik, Dodik.

Was Dodik in debt or in the black, значи није у дуг, when he became leader? Does personal debt play a role in state decision making as a leader? If he splits for independence then the employment rate in the Serb Republic will go down because of the amount of border patrols needed. Is there a budget for it? If not, joining Serbia or Montenegro would reduce the amount of money needed for governing, since the Serb Republic would only need to provide representatives to Belgrade or Podgorica, if they accept.

«...the Serbs have decided not to engage in this idea activly.»

In 1990, they did! Only in a few months, 100s of Bosnian and Croatian villages and town were destroyed, 50 000 civilians were killed in territories that the Serbs wanted to create Greater Serbia.

its not greater Serbia its Serb land anyway for centuries krajina and half of Bosnia was sighned so they could connect to Serbia its all legal but its illegal to give Kosovo to the Albanians thats Serb land so this person talking about greater Serbia has no clue what they are talking about.

The serbs in Bosnia owned 67% of all the land before Izetbegovic declared secession. The VRS were never defeated by the Bosnian Army indeed the only thing that brought the VRS to heel was the destruction of its communications systems by NATO bombing. It is about time the Croats admitted they were wrong in backing the Ilamist izetbegovic whom Tudjman described as "lost croat".No amount of pressure will unite Bosnia it is a basket case, where foreign aid has been pilidged by the Sarajevo politicians and placed in their foreign bank accounts shame on the international community, sadness for all who live in this tormented land. Where all the bosniaks in west mostar where are the sarajevo serbs?

Victor - Croatia as it currently stands is a Greater Croatia. Why not give Krajina back to it's rightful owners, the serbs and let them decide if they want to become an independent state?

silly me, i forgot. Croatia has one rule for itslef , another rule for others.

Funny, how it's called self determination on one end of the spectrum, and occupation in the other...

Just depends on what side of American foreign policy you're on....

BTW Victor, behind every claim of what Serbs have done in Bosnia, is a jealous Croat wanting the exact same thing...The only difference is, that they're politically wiser...

Greater Serbia? So Islam has infltrated every corner of Bosnian life - even supposedly non-political organisations. This person suggests a unified Bosnia? If that is the case, then they support repression as it's a stated aim of Silajdzic to continue Izetbegovic's policies which were to turn Bosnia into a muslim state. Why would a non-muslim want to live in a muslim state????

Bosnia will never unify.

Dudu,
Yes Croatia can live well from all those tourists. I visited it myself from Rovinj to Dubrovnik and Caftat (20 south of Dubrovnik greatly destroyed by the Serbs). I am very happy for the Croates, smart friendly people making great economic progress. And what is the most important: for the last 12 some years they are finally masters in their own house.

Afrim, yes: Sonja Biserko is a Serbian citizen and she is free to say and think what she wants. Just as other are allowed to talk and fantasize about a 'greater Serbia'.

I really don't see why this is newsworthy, nor why some people here start some heated debate... about nothing.

The borders were created with no regard to ethnic groups. Therefore there will naturally be desires to fix the improper borders.

Furthermore, the Serbs did not start the war. The Croats started ethnic cleansing in the Summer of 1991. It was self defense from methods that the Croats continued to do what they started in 1941.

Croatia can live off of 12 million tourists because of GREATER CROATIA backed by Germany & the US seized southern Dalmatia which was never part of Croatia. My neighbor is a Dalmatian Serb whose family was "cleansed" from the Dubrovnik area. He is now awaiting the return of his ancestral lands by the Croatian government. I heard that in order to join the EU Croatia has to resettle refugees and return their lands and houses. Don't know how much truth there is to that but it would be a good start. As far as the Greater argument goes, I see no reason why Serbian lands that have been united in one state for 80+ years can't be united again. Today, with the blessing of the west we have a greater Croatia, and a huge push for greater Albania. The Albanians don't hide the fact that their goal is to unite all "Albanian lands" into one cooperative entity. The breakup of Yugoslavia was clearly orchestrated from the outside (Germany, US, UK) and these same forces do not want their work undone by Serbs who foolishly want to live together in one state or a confederation of states. One set of rules for Croatians, Albanians, Slavic Muslims and another for the Serbs. If the Serbs join the EU this heavy handed one sided approach will only deepen.

Afrim...
You can't seem to get around the fact that democratic societies and peoples represent different ideas and contradictions..It's what makes nations great...

If everybody agreed on everything, as you seem to suggest they should, it wouldn't be nothing more than a society built on bullying and intimidation..
The fact that she's got a cushy job for a well known institute, and gets paid for such statements, should answer more clearly, her motives...

As for Joe...
What was your point as far as the article is concerned?
as far as tourism goes, you'll need lots of money to pay off that brand new shiny army...

As for nice people Joe...
Yes..
If i was living in a sunny place and getting handed money, i too would be the most friendliest person on the planet...
The grandfather's dream of Serbians cleared out, not paying for those crimes, AND claiming to be victims, would make me a happy Croat also..

hopefully she´s one time in her life right!

yeah Afrim, ...that woman is a Serb as I think I have read somewhere...but, who says that Serbs are better than Albanians...you will find someone who says something wanted for a few dollars in every nation... just don´t take that too serious.

by the way, once again I get the impression B92 is eager to create some "dispute" to have a more interesting news-site...
instead of informing properly.

A Greater Serbia will exist once all countries in which Serbs reside become members of the EU.

Zoran,

My family is from the Dubrovnik/Kotor region and my wife's family is from Krajina. There is a big difference between the two regions.

Krajina is still pretty much a wasteland covered in pro-Ustashe graffiti and burned out Orthodox Churches. The Croatian government did in fact rebuild the top section of my brother in law's home. He's currently living there, but for the most part the rest of the village is more or less a ghost town.

Dalmatia has always been relatively safe and Serbs and Croatians have traditionally gotten along fairly well in the region. For example, my cousin's father was the highest Judge in Dubrovnik. My cousin did have one close call with death during the war, but what he did was very dangerous. He's an attorney of course. So he sued some Croatian Ustashe gangsters for Wrongful Death in the killing a Serb he knew (Sorta crazy thing to do during the war, but my cousin is fearless for a 70 year old man). The Ustashe came right into the middle of the Courtroom and threw him to the ground and put a gun to his head. They would have killed him except for the intervention of the Prosecutor, whom my cousin went to law school with so many years ago. The Prosecutor called his contacts in the army and had the Ustashe called off. They did in fact spend something like 2 weeks in jail. However of course, one of them is now Chief of Police and I'm not sure about the others.

The issue with Greater Serbia, Albania, Croatia or whatever is the simple reality that being a minority in the Balkans is very bad for your health. What happened in Krajina was shameful. The Serbs there knew what was in store for them and they were scared. The honest truth is in those areas where Serbs were not a threatened minority, there was no war and no violence.

I personally think there's nothing wrong with peacefully supporting a closer relationship between Serbia and RS. It seems to me that many Croats would also like closer ties to Croatia. I believe that we should be working more on this together and peacefully. I also believe that if Bosnia is divided, then Sandzak should go to the Bosniaks as compensation. If the Bosniaks wanted to live in a multi-ethnic society, they shouldn't have asked to leave Yugoslavia. I find the argument for keeping Bosnia intact very weak. The majority of people living there would like to divide it (Serbs and Croats). Its only the Bosniaks who want to keep it together.

Its only natural for Serbs not to want to be a minority in countries that have a tradition of abusing us. For that very reason, I understand very well the desire of the Albanians of Kosovo not to live under Belgrade rule, so I support them in that. However, calling it "Greater Serbia" like we want to steal land is just insulting. People from outside the Balkans have a very difficult time understanding what it means to be a minority in that region.

In summary, if the EU were serious about peace in the region, they would let everyone into the EU at the same time and render the boarder disputes moot. All the wars of the 90's were absolutely 100% pointless. Yugoslavia would have been a far better partner for the EU then the mess we have now and all the lives that were destroyed. Luciano is right of course, the EU will be our "Greater Serbia". Why the hell did we need to wars of the 90's just to all join in one country again? If the Bosniaks and Croats were upset about Serbian domination of Yugoslavia, just wait till they get in the EU. They will have even less say in the EU then they did in YU. Had we kept YU together, we might have been a serious force in the EU, a regional player that other East European countries could have gravitated too. But then again, maybe that was the whole reason the West was so quick to carve up what could have been a strong regional influence?

What is truly frightening about the rhetoric coming from Sarajevo is that the Bosnian Muslim regime is spending so much time and energy to discredit and then destroy the Serb entity.

They are using their tried and true propaganda tactics which helped them win wide support in the civil war. Quick, easily understood soundbite statements that we in the West can understand.

"Republika Srpska was created on genocide..." and now "Greater Serbian nationalists are in Belgrade." These are being repeated over and over again.

TYet, the more the Bosnian Muslims start whipping up ethnic tensions again, after 10 years of peace, the more Serbs in Bosnia will react to keep their justly earned gains that they sacrificed so much for.

There is peace in Bosnia and no need to change the deal that was signed in 1995.

Whipping up ethnic hatreds as is being done by the Sarajevo authorities, should be loudly condemned by all peace loving people.

RE: Yugoslav Civil War

Croatia defeated Serbia in a war?!!

Milosevic pulled his Generals and army out of Krajina, double crossed Mladic and Kardadzic in B&H allowing the Croatian army under US direction and bombing to break through United Nations Lines and take over the Krajina Region which was under UN Protection. This was orchestrated under the direction of Holbrook.


This was against the UN Charter, and the world stood silent as Croatian troops killed old men & women in the streets and bombed KNIN to a pulp where the Serbian Army already evacuated.
Ante Gotovina is not guilty of any crime , he is a General taking orders from the true criminal,Franjo Tudjman.

«z,,,so to Victor and his buddies, spare me the emotional, illogical reasons for denying Serbs independence in these countries.»

As ffar as I know Serbs were a minority in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo, before the war started. If the Serbs would have accepted the independence of Croatia and Bosnia, the war would have been avoided and the Serbs would live peacefully in the Brajina and in Bosnia. Rebelling against a sovereign republik was the best way to create chaos and a war. Considering what the Serbs have done against their neighbours is a scar that would take a long time to heal.

Many Serbs talk about so-called “Western double standards”, but in fact they argue for double standards when they defend the old Milosevic-Seselj-Mladic-Karadzic-Arkan positions.

If the Serbs “got the right to declare independence in Bosnia and Croatia”, why Albanians cannot declare independence in Kosovo? Or Mulsims declare independence in Sandzak? Or Aromanians in North-Eastern Serbia? Or Hungarians and Croats in Vojvodina? And so on…

The only argument that would justify Serb nationalist positions would be that the Serb Orthodox Church and its followers are morally superior and “more sacred” than the Catholic Croatian Orthodox Church and the Islam of the Bosniaks and Albanians.

But this argument goes completely against the Catholic-Protestant, now Secular, Western World, which was separated from the East Eurasia and Orthodoxy since the Great Schism of 1054. That’s why America, Germany and England don’t agree with Serbia... or Russia.

Your story puts an interesting spin on things but unfortunately your bias is obvious.
Serbians want a greater Serbia just as much as Croatians want a greater Ustasha.

I have good reasons to believe that Sonja Biserko is a Croatian former communist aparachnik who has lived in Belgrade since before the secession of Croatia. I'm sure she makes an excellent living denigrating Serbs and that her Sorosian bank account is bulging. In any other country but Serbia she would have been escorted out a long time ago, or worse. But Serbs have always been very tolerant, regardless of how others like to paint them as being the opposite. Biserko is a case in point.

The only reason operation storm was a success was because croats had un and nato on there side. Remember serbs controlled 1/3 of croation and 75% of bosnia how much did croats controll of SERBIA

a quite interesting link providing a lot of further interesting info:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/07/ending_the_balkan_quagmire_at.html

in contrast to the threats spoken out by those Albanians here:
www.kosovocompromise.com

This is all propaganda. A vicious one against Serbs. Orchestarted by the West. They have lost the plot. Russia is back confident and stronger than ever.

Sonja Biserko!!!! Now that is really funny.
Serbia is protecting its sovereign territory, protecting its borders and its citizens and Sonja is babbling about a Greater Serbia!
I think Sonja must have got confused with Greater Albania!
Is Sonja being accommodated to create an unpeaceful situation because Serbia's legitimacy for its sovereign territory is finally being recognized thanks mainly to Russia.

I think this time Biserko has gone too far. To talk about Greater Serbia when Greater Albania is already a fait accompli and Serbia is being cut into little morsels is just a bad sense of humour and an insult to our people chased from
all over ex-Yugoslavia. I think that the President and the Prime Minister should go on and proceed to defend Serbia's territory as they did so far, and continue to irritate Biserko and the likes.

Of course the idea is still alive. So What?

Vuk said: "Operation storm was not a military victory since Krajina was demiliterised"

Your propaganda is worse than I thought.

It's funny how everyone keeps talking about Greater Serbia but Serbia keeps getting smaller and smaller . This is classic reverse Propaganda that was perfected by CNN , ABC , NBC and BBC today .

Alex
You stated that Serbs controlled 75% of B-H 1/3 of Croatia & Croatia controlled no Serbian land. (1) With all the military might the Serbs should of controlled 100% of B-H and same goes for Croatia.(2) Croatia has absolutely no interest in Serbian land & they admit as civilized people that it's not theirs. The Croats & Slovenes done all the hard work & were the slaves for greater serbia which was called YUGOSLAVIA. Sorry guys(Serbs) that your fairytale dream has been shattered. Also the UK (English dominated) was NEVER on the Croat side they tried hard to keep Yugoslavia together just as they are trying even harder to keep the UK states together. The Serbs are small people & are trying to follow the footsteps of the English people. Lets not forget that the Serbian royal family reside in England where their lobby is very powerfull. If the daiton peace plan was not signed The Croat & B-H forces would of liberated over 90% of B-H within weeks max., Milosevic knew that so he put pen to paper. The Serbs got NO WERE in the 4 years of conflict in Croatia, The Croats restored full order(liberation) within days. Croatia will have similar acconomies to (in future) to Slovenia,Czech Rep,Hungary while the Serbs can join the Macedonian,Romanian,Bulgarian club.
Cheers
Dudu

MYTH: The Serbian-Croatian border was drawn up secretly by Tito, a Croatian, in 1943 benefiting Croatia at the expense of Serbia.

REALITY: Croatia's border with Serbia is essentially the same as in 1848 and 1918 with the exception of those lands taken from Croatia and given to Serbia and Montenegro under both Yugoslav regimes.

This mythology is a recent creation of the Serbian government and has been given wide circulation by Serbian apologists Nora Beloff and David Martin. The purpose of the myth is to stress to the world that the borders of the former Yugoslav republics are simply administrative boundaries with no historical significance. Once this myth is taken as fact the argument follows that such meaningless borders are subject to negotiation and change, in favor of Serbia.

The reality is that Croatia today has roughly the same borders as in 1848. Serbia has increased its borders after every one of its many wars since 1813. Today Serbia controls more territory than it has in its entire history. In the north it has annexed the lands of the Hungarians and Croatians. In the south two hundred thousand Serbs rule over two million ethnic Albanians in the absolute police state of Kosova. Montenegro has become nothing more than a Serbian province.

The myth that Serbian lands are held by Croatia was used by the Serbian government to launch a war of aggression to seize valuable gas and oil fields, rail and shipping corridors and port facilities. Eastern Slavonia, where Serbian aggression resulted in the total devastation of the ancient city of Vukovar, had a Serbian population of 16.4% according to 1991 census. Dubrovnik, which underwent months of siege by Serbian forces, had a Serbian population of only 6.2% in 1991. Neither region has ever been a part of Serbia.

Greater Serbia, Greater Croatia, Greater Albania ~

Let's look at the WHOLE picture once again -

Who really wants what? Two of the three is accurate. Serbia wants to keep what is rightfully hers.

After serving in the Yugoslav services for 20 years, it's really amazing that someone who has been pro-Yu for so many years has the audacity to speak, do and act as she does. Her words, thoughts & actions don't hold water against the reality of it all. Check yourself!

"Biserko said Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Koštunica and the Serbian Orthodox Church were 'the main generators and promoters of the Greater Serbia idea'"
This largly true today. However, this is not a problem exclusive to Serbia in the Balkans. (See references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Serbia)
Racist religious nationalism is human culture at it's lowest.

Since the gathering of Yugoslavia under Tito was involuntary, and ultimatly led to a clash of nationalism once again, maybe a step by step voluntary cooperation will by time put an end to the most serious tension. But it will require a commitment to democracy and a stand against nationalism to realize it.

The answer of what happens when nationalist schismogenesis is applied, is proven in blood throughout history.

Can a EU umbrella over the Balkans help assist this process and give it enough "objectivity" to make it work?

Comment for

Daniel

Yes Krajina was demilitarised ! All of the generals and weapons were either gone or locked up. The croats were fighting farmers and old people who had not managed to leave, trust me i know my granmother passed in that operation. Its not propoganda its an agreement between NATO and Milosovic which went horribly wrong. Seek the truth.

In fact, if Serbia recognized that its legitimate territories are JUST CENTRAL SERBIA and VOJVODINA, and not one more square meter of territory, the Balkans should be a very better place to live.

And people should start to think in a more secular and agnostic way, because Serbia ≠ Serbian Orthodox Church.

JOHN; time for a reality check! CROATIA did not exist in 1848 it was a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. In fact, Croatia as a independent nation only existed for a brief time in the middle ages. Don't you realize with the Internet anyone can verify or discredit that in minutes, what are you trying to prove?

If the Albanians realized that their territory is Albania and not one more square inch, then there might be peace in the Balkans!

To: Zoran.
Thanks for your comments. It may be a good example from you. My point was that (what I call) the racist religious nationalism of the Balkans has obviously been in the way of democracy. One can't have both nationalism and democracy at the same time.
One the other hand, it is, as can be shown in our time, difficult to sustain the idea of democracy if immigrants don't subscribe to the same values as the majority. But people will be very reluctant to assimilate if they are continuously
reminded of having different ethinc, religious, or national backgrounds. Especially when the ones they are supposed to assimilate to openly or subtly see them as the enemy. That's the problem of schismogenesis. Both enemies feed each others hatred. Don't interpret that as meaning that if there ever is a violant attack from a minority within a democracy, the majority is to blame. Because that wouldn't be true, as we just saw in London and Glasgow (even though this is seen as
reaction to UK's foreign policy).

I mentioned the EU simply because they can (may) be enough of a "objective" umbrella to bring people closer together, instead
of polarising us as human beings. But of course, it is always up to the people of each respective country. Just look at the state of nationalism in EU member Poland at the moment.

It's not that I have faith in the EU being such a terrific organisation, it's more about the concept.
Peace brokers have been discussing the concept of a EU model for Israel and the surrounding countries for a few years now, and leaders of all the respective countries have welcomed the proposition.

Serbia is doing a LOT at the moment to strengthen it's democratic bureaucracy, but how can it extend that idea outside of it's borders? It will need help.