Day two of Bush-Putin meetings

Bush Senior sent a clear meassage to Millosheviq when he was in the office then, and the message was very clear" do not cross the line(meaning Kosova)", so when that time came that Millosheviq crossed that line even though Clinton was in the office he had no choice in the matter and had to bomb serbia. Now , Bush Senior I beleive will have a serious chat about Kosova and I am sure Putin will listen, or lese all bets are off.

Why would anyone believe the Serbs are going to participate constructively in "continued" negotiations - they didnt participate in the last 13 months of talks other than to show up and go on and on about a "principled stand." Rather than focusing on Russia and the U.S., why arent Kostunica and his crew focusing on convincing the Kosovo Albanians of their sincerity?

Kosovo will be indipendent. We can do nothing to stop it. It´s too late.

Ana, since Dindic's death, the Serbs' participation with other nation, especially the EU has been poor. Mladic and Karadzic and still at large and no sanctions habe been impose. When the world shows its resolve, Serbia's politicians will change and modify their attitude.

is this desperation I hear in those statements?

one thing I would agree on is that you really can´t to anything about it, except playing the violence-card...

but that would be a big mistake.
after all, Bush won´t be so stupid to risk real deterioriations with Russia and the UN because of the Albanians. And Europe is more concerned of one single day of energy supply by Russia than of the k-albanians.
it´s really something you can´t do anything about.

@ Ana - the 'negotiations' you refer to were a complete sham from start to finish. The final outcome - independence - was pre-determined. How any reasonable observer could call them fair discussions is beyond me. Indeed, how anyone could argue that the Serb and Albanian positions were equivalent in their intransigence also defies belief. While Serbia was willing to consider anythign but independence, the Albanians insisted that this was the only outcome they would consider. If that had happened in any other negotiation then the side making the statement that they would not be willijng to consider any other options would have been condemned for not showing goodwill. And yet now you argue that the Serbian side was obstructive. You must be joking!

Ana - Why do you suppose that it was the 'Serbs' who did not show willing at these meetings? That is not the case at all.

The talks that have taken place were sporadic and unproductive. There were not regular meetings and very early on it was clear that there was an end agenda.

If more talks now take place, they will be managed properly and constructively. It is clear now, despite the comments on this thread, that independence cannot be handed to the Kosovo Albanians. The talks will be to discuss the extent of autonomy and how it will work.

Kate,

Why werent the objections to the Ahtisari talks not as loud then as they are now?

There will be no more talks, we cant have talks just for the sake of talking, and whatever representatives the Kosova Albanians send to these negiciations will need to have the mandate of the people of Kosova who overwhelmingly opose new talks that will establisht another status other than the one provided under the Ahtisari deal.

In order for any Kosova negociating team to have new talks they will need to hold a new referendum and get their mandate from the people.

Personally i do not agree to send people to talk with Belgrade on a deal that does not include independence and i am sure many people feel the same way.

Autonomy, in whatever extent is UNNACEPTABLE.

Kate: "It is clear now, despite the comments on this thread, that independence cannot be handed to the Kosovo Albanians. The talks will be to discuss the extent of autonomy and how it will work."
Just the fact that you said it I am relived because I know the opposite is true.

Nick - IF Belgrade refuses independence, the international community won't support independence, and the Kosovo Albanians will not accept autonomy... what then? There are no options BUT to have more talks.

"Political analysts in Kosovo said that Kosovo will take a back seat in the discussions to more important international problems, as well as that it was hard to imagine that a new cold war could erupt from the Kosovo question."

From what I can say this is more pragmatic and realistic view of things, something that cannot be said for the recent announcements' made by Serb government officials and other pundits and analysts who think that they are in some sort of spiritual medieval battle with the whole world regarding Kosovo.

It is hard to gauge the level of seriousness by some here when they come to conclude that next talks will be more constructive. From what I understand all talks have an end agenda and that is to find a solution whichever it may be. By applying the logic of the Serb government and its supporters, these talks, between Kosovo and Serbia, will go on forever. If a solution is not favorable to Kosovoans, they will say no (I am sure Russians will have to say no too, since both sides are not happy, what do you guys think?). Also, Kosovoans can come up and say just as Kate is saying, to use here comments

"The talks that have taken place were sporadic and unproductive. There were not regular meetings and very early on it was clear that there was an end agenda"

and then demand another round of talks, and on and on we go to talks, talks, talks, and no outcome. Some may be inclined to do this however anyone who feels some sort of responsibility towards the region and who is interested in one way or another, for good or bad no matter what you may think of them, in this region, will say that this cannot last forever.

Furthermore how serious are the negotiations when one side of negotiators denies important facts that brought these two parties to the current situation they are in today?

People here make ludicrous claims that somehow NATO caused 1 million Albanian refugees and that Serbia had nothing to do with it. These same people fail to explain how dead Kosovo civilians are being found on Serbia proper. How is it that there are mass graves filled with bodies of Kosovo civilians in state owned police grounds. Note, that these are state owned institutions. How can it be that nobody noticed that something illegal was taking place? Where were generals, colonels and other superiors in charge of these institutions?

Perhaps someone can explain the trucks floating in Danube containing bodies of Kosovo civilians. Was it NATO that was trying to hide its crimes? Perhaps NATO did the killings in Kosovo and using UFO technology transported the bodies in Serbia so it looks like Serbs did it? Only wildest conspiracy theorist's and craziest ignorantss can come up with reasonable explanation for this. Then in light of this it comes to no surprise to hear that "The talks that have taken place were sporadic and unproductive. There were not regular meetings and very early on it was clear that there was an end agenda. If more talks now take place, they will be managed properly and constructively ... ".

Before you all deny everything again and again as is always the case, here is a challenge for you. Just solve it.

Consider the capital of Kosovo, Pristina, and capital of Serbia, Belgrade. Both capitals' were populated during 1999 NATO attacks. Pristina was nearly emptied during this time (some very prominent Kosovo politicians were executed by Serbia at this time, among them Mr. Agani and the lawyer for human rights Mr. Kelmendi. This last one was shot dead together with his two sons) while Belgrade saw no refuges similar to Pristina's. If NATO campaign caused refugees in Pristina, why it did no have the same effect in Belgrade? Are you guys implying that Serbs are more brave than Albanians, and had courage to stay home and go by daily life while NATO campaign was on?

Oh, yeah, it is the famous KLA that did all that. Silly me, how could I forget them. Well, I wouldn't but KLA was nowhere near Pristina, and anyone who was suspicious of being a KLA in Pristina would have been eliminated on the spot. So we are left with NATO on the sky and Serb police, paramilitary units and army on the ground. I wonder what did take place to create all those refugees.


In the end there might be more negotiations to make it easy for Russia to abstain and save face; but the end result will not change. It is going to be independence.

this putin-bush meeting is the last ace of spades for the albanians. spent were the ace of diamond (UK presidency), ace of hearts (US presidency), ace of flowers (G-8). will they win the game or lose? lets wait and see. wanna bet???

James,

That was well put - I couldn't have said it better myself. The sad thing is, some people just won't even attempt to look at things objectively, no matter if simple logic or plain common sense slapped them in the face ...

Cheers.

I haw ben reading the news and the comments on b92 and hopping for a solution however for the time i do not see one.
The problem is people like Victor that are looking for any thing to bash the Serb,
the need to bee more people like kate if a solution is to be found thanks just a opinion

Autonomy, in whatever extent is UNNACEPTABLE.
(Nick, Monday, 2 July, 2007, 14:44)

Well than Nick I hope you like the situation in Kosovo now because its going to stay that way for a long, long time. there ZERO chance of independence, its over. If it was to be it would have happened by now. So much for your BIG protest on June 30th, less then 500 people showed up! I think the average person in Kosovo just wants to move on with their lives but its people like you that are holding them back. Its really sad to see that such a small number of fanatics can hold back so many good people. Sooner or later the good people of Kosovo will get fed up with people like that and come to their seances.

James,

It is time to stop painting Serbs with the same brush. There are good Serbs and there are bad Serbs, just like peoples everywhere in the world. Some Serbian citizens fought for freedom and political justice. Serbia defended itself as best as it did in face of NATO bombardments even to the point of its citizens wearing bullseyes on their chests. What choice did Serbia have when the Rambouillet agreement fell through on the point of sovereignty, and the medieval bombs started to fall?

So, here it is again. Sovereignty is not being respected and the Albanian elite are not respecting it. The KLA leveraged NATO but failed in obtaining their goal. The Albanian citizens are left with the only option and that is to negotiate. That is what is done in a democracy.

This whole meeting is meant for Putin to offer Bush ways to abandon Kosovo to the Serbs. There is nothing US can do any more to get them independence. Kosovo will never be anything but SERBIA. Its obvious Bush has put his foot in his mouth in Tirana and needs Putin to save him with something... ANYTHING that seems remotely like a compromise. Wait till tomorrow and watch it come true. SERBIAN BORDERS SHALL NEVER CHANGE. Even Pristina understands reality.

The more you precondition your head with the connitations that Serbia = INNOCENT and UCK = terrorist the harder it's going to be for serbs to face reality.

If anything between this meeting the Kosova Independence issue is going to be avoided the most.

So to all those that wonder why do Kosovars want independence a question for you: with independence a Kosovar gets the will to live in a democratic country with prevelidges, what does staying as a second rate citizen under Greater Serbia offer?

James and other ethnic Albanians,

The fact remains that there was no justification for the war on FR Yugoslavia just like there was no basis for war in Iraq. You cannot brush away the truth on the facts of the matter regarding the ILLEGALITY of the war lead by NATO against FR Yugoslavia. The same deception was utilised and polished up for the war in Iraq.

There was no genocide nor was there any mass graves prior to the massive bombardment.
"Massacres in Kosovo never happened, say Canadians who investigated mass graves
By Bruce Garvey, The Ottawa Citizen 29 August 2004
The war crimes tribunal in The Hague is beginning to panic over its case against former Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic according to a Vancouver detective sent to unearth mass graves in Kosovo and a Canadian filmmaker who documented the exhumations.
I would think they'll have a tough time with the charge of genocide with only 5,000 bodies, said retired Vancouver detective sergeant Brian Honeybourn"
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/092.html

Amnesty international figures
"Some 2,464 persons (1,774 ethnic Albanians and 690 non-Albanians) were still reported missing in December 2005 by UNMIK's Office of Missing Persons and Forensics. About 2,700 cases were reported to have been closed, including over 1,500 cases in which the mortal remains of ethnic Albanians had been found (including some 679 from Serbia)."
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engeur700152006

I would suggest you discuss with Conor Foley who was part of the UNMIK operations in Kosovo who seems to have a far better understanding of the reality of events "The death toll in Kosovo was in the hundreds before the start of the bombing campaign. It was around 5,000 by the end"
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/take_two/2007/04/oliver_kamm_v_conor_foley.html

Thus it is true that approx 5000 people lost their lives but this includes military & civilian loss by State military forces, the ethnic-Albanian KLA terrorist actions and those labelled as "collateral" by NATO themselves against all citizens that they were suppposedly providing humaniatrian bombardment for! Moreover 90% of this total occured AFTER bombardment and thus cannot be used as prior justification!!!

The reality is that Iraq was a mass deception over Weapons of Mass Destruction while the Kosovo war was a deception over the Whereabouts of Mass Graves!

In fact prior to the ILLEGAL action it is estimated that the terrorist Albaninan insurgency had resulted in fewer then 500 deaths in total (Military & Civilian). This was in an attempt to quell a terrorist insurgency on it's sovereign territory which I must add was trained and armed by the US & Germany (Both the CIA and German intelligence (BND) supported the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), a terrorist organization with links to Al Qaeda.)
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BEH502A.html

Compare this with the NATO action in Afghanistan which has this year alone (6 months)
" between 240 and 320 civilians had been killed by foreign forces this year before these latest deaths."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6256458.stm - and this in another nation state!!!

So stop with the victim and deserving independence the truth is that 1244 was signed and it was post conflict and reconfirmed Serbia's territorial integrity - Keep beliveing Bush and the US but what will you be saying this time next year when there is still no independence, no jobs, no economic delevoplemnt and no hope??? Violence and the threats of violence are now ringing hollow and many in the EU are now quite aware that these were hollow words that teh US used to try and speed the process to their objective but it is obvious that Russia will not back down and ILLEGAL declarations are just as hollow since 1244 invokes the UN to immediatly declare this void irrespective of the US wishing to recognise. If they did so then they remove the legitamacy for all NATO troops and UNMIK and equally since the US broke the contract then Serbia will always have the right to block such a divided entity and you will be staring at future like North Cyprus!!!

Think all this through and ask what do you prefer a - the choice is yours !!!

The real reasons for the US and European intervention in the former yugoslavia has nothing to do with morality but with realpolitik.

read the following article by a former minister of the british govt in the guardian newspaper. http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1179206,00.html

And whilst we are here, the Croats and Albanians should also read this article which shows in black and white who the real aggressors were, not just recently but in the last 50 years.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20070702gc.html

It's absolutely ridiculous to claim that the Serbs' participation in the "talks" was just a stunt. It's the Albanians who stand to lose from the talks - not the Serbs. This is becoming more evident by the day.

I'd say Serbia has been rather flexible and accomodating so far.

Princip,
I stoped reading your comments after the first sentence
"The fact remains that there was no justification for the war on FR Yugoslavia just like there was no basis for war in Iraq."
It looks like you read the facts the way you want.
NATO intervention in Kosova was a humanitarian mission to stop killing, raping and distruction against the Albanian population.
If you still refuse to accept that reality (as your beloved polititians do), than really, there is no reason for further discussions between Albanians and Serbs.
It was decent and nice the way tadic apologized to Croats. When he, (and all of you) will do the same with the Albanians, than we can consider talking to you guys again.

Princip, before you divulge into another episode of mind boggling fabrications please remember that as per 1244 the final outcome should take into account the will of the people. I am sure you know what that means. Additionally, just because someone is expressing its view does not mean that that someone is Albanian. All I can say about my nationality, without drawing criticisms or praise because of it, is that I am a westerner and have been deeply involved in the issues surrounding former Yugoslavia for a long time.

I want to stress here that I am not painting all Serbs with the same brush. But lets establish some facts before we move on. While in Belgrade, citizens were able to protest what it was deemed illegal by them as Aca put it "Some Serbian citizens fought for freedom and political justice. Serbia defended itself as best as it did in face of NATO bombardments even to the point of its citizens wearing bullseyes on their chests", the truth is that NATO's ferocious bombardment did not create in Belgrade the refugees crisis that was unfolding in Pristina, that is all of Kosovo. So, to claim that NATO is responsible in one way or another for the expulsion of 1 million people from their homes is beyond belief.

What makes these claims even worst is that people in today's Serbia's political establishment (even after the democratic changes in Serbia) tacitly agree with this kind of claims. And using these kind of claims they mislead their nation by painting all westerners as anti Serbs (point in case Marti Ahtisaari or any other westerner that dares to say the obvious and that is Kosovo should become independent) thus hiding their failures and ineptness when dealing with international counterparties. It is not that negotiations failed, it’s the Serb negotiators that failed in presenting their point of view. And this happened primarily because of the distorted point of view they based their starting assumptions which are similar to these ludicrous claims and upon which they wanted to build their case.

to Veto-vendosija:

who do you think you can fool with those greater Serbia phrases? you still live in 1981 I guess... when your albanian teachers in serbian Kosovo have told you that you are illyrians...

So to all those that wonder why do Albanians living in KosovO want independence a question for you: with independence an Albanian living in KosovO gets the will to live in a democratic country with prevelidges, what does staying as a second rate citizen under Greater Serbia offer?
(Vetëvendosje, Monday, 2 July, 2007, 19:43)
Bush has no political pull nor does he have the respect of any nation. His word has proven to be rubbish before & it will be again, so if you're looking for hope out of this "meeting", keep looking OR better yet, wait & see if his promises come through for you in Tirana!

KosovO is Serbian land, it will always be Serbian land.

To Kate - You've teetered on both sides of the fence for so long, you should be in politics. Now that's fact!

Here is my prediction. Kosovo Albanians get full autonomy within the current borders, supervised by the EU. NATO forces along Russian forces oversee security. Both Serbia and Kosovo will be offered fast-lane entry into the EU. Which will eventually be prolonged beyond belief, becaus ethe EU does not want Serbia or Kosovo in the EU, they just want to control the Balkans. The war criminals in the Pristina government will have no choice but to accept. Otherwise they will have to go to the Hague. A deal will be made. Although, with courts opening for war crimes in Krajna, Ceku may very well wind up facing his crimes. The Croatians will give him up like a rat. All people can live together again in the Balkans, they always have. Borders mean nothing.

James - your posts are totally one-sided and tiresome. Your last name would not be Rubin, would it?? Your anti-Serb lies and propoganda sounds just like him.
I was on the phone with a Serb from Cacak last week, and he told me that Serbia will not give 'one centimetre of Kosovo' to the albanians. Why? Because he said, 'Kosovo is Serbian, always has been and always will be.' I believe Kostunica said the same thing, word for word. The message I am sending you is this, James, Serbs are united on this issue, and no matter what lies you spread like you did during the bombing (where are the 100,000 dead albanians that you claimed?), we will never give you Kosovo. Serbs are not going to be bought and bribed like others, you failed in 1999 when you signed on the dotted line of resolution 1244 that Kosovo was a part of Serbia, period. Despite what you see in some comments here, the US and UK actually lost that war because at the end of it all they signed a document that clarified the territorial integrity of Serbia, period. We don't care what you say James, Kosovo is Serbia and Serbia is Kosovo, always has been, always will be. Deal with reality.

Dragan,
well said!!!

James,
please provide links to substantiate your fictional claims to refute all that I have stated. I have provide links to support all that I have said and in much part have quoted others on what is factual rather then fictional. Till then au revoir!

Dragan, princip and ohers

read the B92 in Serbian language to understand what Serbia things of Kosova. Of course that some Ratko Mladic think a like from Shabac thinks that Kosovo"'Kosovo is Serbian, always has been and always will be" but reality speak different. Only a blind cant see

Bush Senior sent a clear meassage to Millosheviq when he was in the office then, and the message was very clear" do not cross the line(meaning Kosova)", so when that time came that Millosheviq crossed that line even though Clinton was in the office he had no choice in the matter and had to bomb serbia. Now , Bush Senior I beleive will have a serious chat about Kosova and I am sure Putin will listen, or lese all bets are off.

Why would anyone believe the Serbs are going to participate constructively in "continued" negotiations - they didnt participate in the last 13 months of talks other than to show up and go on and on about a "principled stand." Rather than focusing on Russia and the U.S., why arent Kostunica and his crew focusing on convincing the Kosovo Albanians of their sincerity?

Kosovo will be indipendent. We can do nothing to stop it. It´s too late.

Ana, since Dindic's death, the Serbs' participation with other nation, especially the EU has been poor. Mladic and Karadzic and still at large and no sanctions habe been impose. When the world shows its resolve, Serbia's politicians will change and modify their attitude.

is this desperation I hear in those statements?

one thing I would agree on is that you really can´t to anything about it, except playing the violence-card...

but that would be a big mistake.
after all, Bush won´t be so stupid to risk real deterioriations with Russia and the UN because of the Albanians. And Europe is more concerned of one single day of energy supply by Russia than of the k-albanians.
it´s really something you can´t do anything about.

@ Ana - the 'negotiations' you refer to were a complete sham from start to finish. The final outcome - independence - was pre-determined. How any reasonable observer could call them fair discussions is beyond me. Indeed, how anyone could argue that the Serb and Albanian positions were equivalent in their intransigence also defies belief. While Serbia was willing to consider anythign but independence, the Albanians insisted that this was the only outcome they would consider. If that had happened in any other negotiation then the side making the statement that they would not be willijng to consider any other options would have been condemned for not showing goodwill. And yet now you argue that the Serbian side was obstructive. You must be joking!

Ana - Why do you suppose that it was the 'Serbs' who did not show willing at these meetings? That is not the case at all.

The talks that have taken place were sporadic and unproductive. There were not regular meetings and very early on it was clear that there was an end agenda.

If more talks now take place, they will be managed properly and constructively. It is clear now, despite the comments on this thread, that independence cannot be handed to the Kosovo Albanians. The talks will be to discuss the extent of autonomy and how it will work.

Kate,

Why werent the objections to the Ahtisari talks not as loud then as they are now?

There will be no more talks, we cant have talks just for the sake of talking, and whatever representatives the Kosova Albanians send to these negiciations will need to have the mandate of the people of Kosova who overwhelmingly opose new talks that will establisht another status other than the one provided under the Ahtisari deal.

In order for any Kosova negociating team to have new talks they will need to hold a new referendum and get their mandate from the people.

Personally i do not agree to send people to talk with Belgrade on a deal that does not include independence and i am sure many people feel the same way.

Autonomy, in whatever extent is UNNACEPTABLE.

Kate: "It is clear now, despite the comments on this thread, that independence cannot be handed to the Kosovo Albanians. The talks will be to discuss the extent of autonomy and how it will work."
Just the fact that you said it I am relived because I know the opposite is true.

Nick - IF Belgrade refuses independence, the international community won't support independence, and the Kosovo Albanians will not accept autonomy... what then? There are no options BUT to have more talks.

"Political analysts in Kosovo said that Kosovo will take a back seat in the discussions to more important international problems, as well as that it was hard to imagine that a new cold war could erupt from the Kosovo question."

From what I can say this is more pragmatic and realistic view of things, something that cannot be said for the recent announcements' made by Serb government officials and other pundits and analysts who think that they are in some sort of spiritual medieval battle with the whole world regarding Kosovo.

It is hard to gauge the level of seriousness by some here when they come to conclude that next talks will be more constructive. From what I understand all talks have an end agenda and that is to find a solution whichever it may be. By applying the logic of the Serb government and its supporters, these talks, between Kosovo and Serbia, will go on forever. If a solution is not favorable to Kosovoans, they will say no (I am sure Russians will have to say no too, since both sides are not happy, what do you guys think?). Also, Kosovoans can come up and say just as Kate is saying, to use here comments

"The talks that have taken place were sporadic and unproductive. There were not regular meetings and very early on it was clear that there was an end agenda"

and then demand another round of talks, and on and on we go to talks, talks, talks, and no outcome. Some may be inclined to do this however anyone who feels some sort of responsibility towards the region and who is interested in one way or another, for good or bad no matter what you may think of them, in this region, will say that this cannot last forever.

Furthermore how serious are the negotiations when one side of negotiators denies important facts that brought these two parties to the current situation they are in today?

People here make ludicrous claims that somehow NATO caused 1 million Albanian refugees and that Serbia had nothing to do with it. These same people fail to explain how dead Kosovo civilians are being found on Serbia proper. How is it that there are mass graves filled with bodies of Kosovo civilians in state owned police grounds. Note, that these are state owned institutions. How can it be that nobody noticed that something illegal was taking place? Where were generals, colonels and other superiors in charge of these institutions?

Perhaps someone can explain the trucks floating in Danube containing bodies of Kosovo civilians. Was it NATO that was trying to hide its crimes? Perhaps NATO did the killings in Kosovo and using UFO technology transported the bodies in Serbia so it looks like Serbs did it? Only wildest conspiracy theorist's and craziest ignorantss can come up with reasonable explanation for this. Then in light of this it comes to no surprise to hear that "The talks that have taken place were sporadic and unproductive. There were not regular meetings and very early on it was clear that there was an end agenda. If more talks now take place, they will be managed properly and constructively ... ".

Before you all deny everything again and again as is always the case, here is a challenge for you. Just solve it.

Consider the capital of Kosovo, Pristina, and capital of Serbia, Belgrade. Both capitals' were populated during 1999 NATO attacks. Pristina was nearly emptied during this time (some very prominent Kosovo politicians were executed by Serbia at this time, among them Mr. Agani and the lawyer for human rights Mr. Kelmendi. This last one was shot dead together with his two sons) while Belgrade saw no refuges similar to Pristina's. If NATO campaign caused refugees in Pristina, why it did no have the same effect in Belgrade? Are you guys implying that Serbs are more brave than Albanians, and had courage to stay home and go by daily life while NATO campaign was on?

Oh, yeah, it is the famous KLA that did all that. Silly me, how could I forget them. Well, I wouldn't but KLA was nowhere near Pristina, and anyone who was suspicious of being a KLA in Pristina would have been eliminated on the spot. So we are left with NATO on the sky and Serb police, paramilitary units and army on the ground. I wonder what did take place to create all those refugees.


In the end there might be more negotiations to make it easy for Russia to abstain and save face; but the end result will not change. It is going to be independence.

this putin-bush meeting is the last ace of spades for the albanians. spent were the ace of diamond (UK presidency), ace of hearts (US presidency), ace of flowers (G-8). will they win the game or lose? lets wait and see. wanna bet???

James,

That was well put - I couldn't have said it better myself. The sad thing is, some people just won't even attempt to look at things objectively, no matter if simple logic or plain common sense slapped them in the face ...

Cheers.

I haw ben reading the news and the comments on b92 and hopping for a solution however for the time i do not see one.
The problem is people like Victor that are looking for any thing to bash the Serb,
the need to bee more people like kate if a solution is to be found thanks just a opinion

Autonomy, in whatever extent is UNNACEPTABLE.
(Nick, Monday, 2 July, 2007, 14:44)

Well than Nick I hope you like the situation in Kosovo now because its going to stay that way for a long, long time. there ZERO chance of independence, its over. If it was to be it would have happened by now. So much for your BIG protest on June 30th, less then 500 people showed up! I think the average person in Kosovo just wants to move on with their lives but its people like you that are holding them back. Its really sad to see that such a small number of fanatics can hold back so many good people. Sooner or later the good people of Kosovo will get fed up with people like that and come to their seances.

James,

It is time to stop painting Serbs with the same brush. There are good Serbs and there are bad Serbs, just like peoples everywhere in the world. Some Serbian citizens fought for freedom and political justice. Serbia defended itself as best as it did in face of NATO bombardments even to the point of its citizens wearing bullseyes on their chests. What choice did Serbia have when the Rambouillet agreement fell through on the point of sovereignty, and the medieval bombs started to fall?

So, here it is again. Sovereignty is not being respected and the Albanian elite are not respecting it. The KLA leveraged NATO but failed in obtaining their goal. The Albanian citizens are left with the only option and that is to negotiate. That is what is done in a democracy.

This whole meeting is meant for Putin to offer Bush ways to abandon Kosovo to the Serbs. There is nothing US can do any more to get them independence. Kosovo will never be anything but SERBIA. Its obvious Bush has put his foot in his mouth in Tirana and needs Putin to save him with something... ANYTHING that seems remotely like a compromise. Wait till tomorrow and watch it come true. SERBIAN BORDERS SHALL NEVER CHANGE. Even Pristina understands reality.

The more you precondition your head with the connitations that Serbia = INNOCENT and UCK = terrorist the harder it's going to be for serbs to face reality.

If anything between this meeting the Kosova Independence issue is going to be avoided the most.

So to all those that wonder why do Kosovars want independence a question for you: with independence a Kosovar gets the will to live in a democratic country with prevelidges, what does staying as a second rate citizen under Greater Serbia offer?

James and other ethnic Albanians,

The fact remains that there was no justification for the war on FR Yugoslavia just like there was no basis for war in Iraq. You cannot brush away the truth on the facts of the matter regarding the ILLEGALITY of the war lead by NATO against FR Yugoslavia. The same deception was utilised and polished up for the war in Iraq.

There was no genocide nor was there any mass graves prior to the massive bombardment.
"Massacres in Kosovo never happened, say Canadians who investigated mass graves
By Bruce Garvey, The Ottawa Citizen 29 August 2004
The war crimes tribunal in The Hague is beginning to panic over its case against former Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic according to a Vancouver detective sent to unearth mass graves in Kosovo and a Canadian filmmaker who documented the exhumations.
I would think they'll have a tough time with the charge of genocide with only 5,000 bodies, said retired Vancouver detective sergeant Brian Honeybourn"
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/092.html

Amnesty international figures
"Some 2,464 persons (1,774 ethnic Albanians and 690 non-Albanians) were still reported missing in December 2005 by UNMIK's Office of Missing Persons and Forensics. About 2,700 cases were reported to have been closed, including over 1,500 cases in which the mortal remains of ethnic Albanians had been found (including some 679 from Serbia)."
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engeur700152006

I would suggest you discuss with Conor Foley who was part of the UNMIK operations in Kosovo who seems to have a far better understanding of the reality of events "The death toll in Kosovo was in the hundreds before the start of the bombing campaign. It was around 5,000 by the end"
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/take_two/2007/04/oliver_kamm_v_conor_foley.html

Thus it is true that approx 5000 people lost their lives but this includes military & civilian loss by State military forces, the ethnic-Albanian KLA terrorist actions and those labelled as "collateral" by NATO themselves against all citizens that they were suppposedly providing humaniatrian bombardment for! Moreover 90% of this total occured AFTER bombardment and thus cannot be used as prior justification!!!

The reality is that Iraq was a mass deception over Weapons of Mass Destruction while the Kosovo war was a deception over the Whereabouts of Mass Graves!

In fact prior to the ILLEGAL action it is estimated that the terrorist Albaninan insurgency had resulted in fewer then 500 deaths in total (Military & Civilian). This was in an attempt to quell a terrorist insurgency on it's sovereign territory which I must add was trained and armed by the US & Germany (Both the CIA and German intelligence (BND) supported the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), a terrorist organization with links to Al Qaeda.)
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BEH502A.html

Compare this with the NATO action in Afghanistan which has this year alone (6 months)
" between 240 and 320 civilians had been killed by foreign forces this year before these latest deaths."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6256458.stm - and this in another nation state!!!

So stop with the victim and deserving independence the truth is that 1244 was signed and it was post conflict and reconfirmed Serbia's territorial integrity - Keep beliveing Bush and the US but what will you be saying this time next year when there is still no independence, no jobs, no economic delevoplemnt and no hope??? Violence and the threats of violence are now ringing hollow and many in the EU are now quite aware that these were hollow words that teh US used to try and speed the process to their objective but it is obvious that Russia will not back down and ILLEGAL declarations are just as hollow since 1244 invokes the UN to immediatly declare this void irrespective of the US wishing to recognise. If they did so then they remove the legitamacy for all NATO troops and UNMIK and equally since the US broke the contract then Serbia will always have the right to block such a divided entity and you will be staring at future like North Cyprus!!!

Think all this through and ask what do you prefer a - the choice is yours !!!

The real reasons for the US and European intervention in the former yugoslavia has nothing to do with morality but with realpolitik.

read the following article by a former minister of the british govt in the guardian newspaper. http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1179206,00.html

And whilst we are here, the Croats and Albanians should also read this article which shows in black and white who the real aggressors were, not just recently but in the last 50 years.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20070702gc.html

It's absolutely ridiculous to claim that the Serbs' participation in the "talks" was just a stunt. It's the Albanians who stand to lose from the talks - not the Serbs. This is becoming more evident by the day.

I'd say Serbia has been rather flexible and accomodating so far.

Princip,
I stoped reading your comments after the first sentence
"The fact remains that there was no justification for the war on FR Yugoslavia just like there was no basis for war in Iraq."
It looks like you read the facts the way you want.
NATO intervention in Kosova was a humanitarian mission to stop killing, raping and distruction against the Albanian population.
If you still refuse to accept that reality (as your beloved polititians do), than really, there is no reason for further discussions between Albanians and Serbs.
It was decent and nice the way tadic apologized to Croats. When he, (and all of you) will do the same with the Albanians, than we can consider talking to you guys again.

Princip, before you divulge into another episode of mind boggling fabrications please remember that as per 1244 the final outcome should take into account the will of the people. I am sure you know what that means. Additionally, just because someone is expressing its view does not mean that that someone is Albanian. All I can say about my nationality, without drawing criticisms or praise because of it, is that I am a westerner and have been deeply involved in the issues surrounding former Yugoslavia for a long time.

I want to stress here that I am not painting all Serbs with the same brush. But lets establish some facts before we move on. While in Belgrade, citizens were able to protest what it was deemed illegal by them as Aca put it "Some Serbian citizens fought for freedom and political justice. Serbia defended itself as best as it did in face of NATO bombardments even to the point of its citizens wearing bullseyes on their chests", the truth is that NATO's ferocious bombardment did not create in Belgrade the refugees crisis that was unfolding in Pristina, that is all of Kosovo. So, to claim that NATO is responsible in one way or another for the expulsion of 1 million people from their homes is beyond belief.

What makes these claims even worst is that people in today's Serbia's political establishment (even after the democratic changes in Serbia) tacitly agree with this kind of claims. And using these kind of claims they mislead their nation by painting all westerners as anti Serbs (point in case Marti Ahtisaari or any other westerner that dares to say the obvious and that is Kosovo should become independent) thus hiding their failures and ineptness when dealing with international counterparties. It is not that negotiations failed, it’s the Serb negotiators that failed in presenting their point of view. And this happened primarily because of the distorted point of view they based their starting assumptions which are similar to these ludicrous claims and upon which they wanted to build their case.

to Veto-vendosija:

who do you think you can fool with those greater Serbia phrases? you still live in 1981 I guess... when your albanian teachers in serbian Kosovo have told you that you are illyrians...

So to all those that wonder why do Albanians living in KosovO want independence a question for you: with independence an Albanian living in KosovO gets the will to live in a democratic country with prevelidges, what does staying as a second rate citizen under Greater Serbia offer?
(Vetëvendosje, Monday, 2 July, 2007, 19:43)
Bush has no political pull nor does he have the respect of any nation. His word has proven to be rubbish before & it will be again, so if you're looking for hope out of this "meeting", keep looking OR better yet, wait & see if his promises come through for you in Tirana!

KosovO is Serbian land, it will always be Serbian land.

To Kate - You've teetered on both sides of the fence for so long, you should be in politics. Now that's fact!

Here is my prediction. Kosovo Albanians get full autonomy within the current borders, supervised by the EU. NATO forces along Russian forces oversee security. Both Serbia and Kosovo will be offered fast-lane entry into the EU. Which will eventually be prolonged beyond belief, becaus ethe EU does not want Serbia or Kosovo in the EU, they just want to control the Balkans. The war criminals in the Pristina government will have no choice but to accept. Otherwise they will have to go to the Hague. A deal will be made. Although, with courts opening for war crimes in Krajna, Ceku may very well wind up facing his crimes. The Croatians will give him up like a rat. All people can live together again in the Balkans, they always have. Borders mean nothing.

James - your posts are totally one-sided and tiresome. Your last name would not be Rubin, would it?? Your anti-Serb lies and propoganda sounds just like him.
I was on the phone with a Serb from Cacak last week, and he told me that Serbia will not give 'one centimetre of Kosovo' to the albanians. Why? Because he said, 'Kosovo is Serbian, always has been and always will be.' I believe Kostunica said the same thing, word for word. The message I am sending you is this, James, Serbs are united on this issue, and no matter what lies you spread like you did during the bombing (where are the 100,000 dead albanians that you claimed?), we will never give you Kosovo. Serbs are not going to be bought and bribed like others, you failed in 1999 when you signed on the dotted line of resolution 1244 that Kosovo was a part of Serbia, period. Despite what you see in some comments here, the US and UK actually lost that war because at the end of it all they signed a document that clarified the territorial integrity of Serbia, period. We don't care what you say James, Kosovo is Serbia and Serbia is Kosovo, always has been, always will be. Deal with reality.

Dragan,
well said!!!

James,
please provide links to substantiate your fictional claims to refute all that I have stated. I have provide links to support all that I have said and in much part have quoted others on what is factual rather then fictional. Till then au revoir!

Dragan, princip and ohers

read the B92 in Serbian language to understand what Serbia things of Kosova. Of course that some Ratko Mladic think a like from Shabac thinks that Kosovo"'Kosovo is Serbian, always has been and always will be" but reality speak different. Only a blind cant see