I’m always interested in discussing ideas with educated people in a rational manner. Partition is not perfect, so I do value any valid criticisms of it.
“Right, but partition is high potential danger, taking into account that Balkan’s nations aren’t that homogeneously spread out. (laki bani, Tuesday, 3 July, 2007, 19:51)”
Laki,
If you make the “potential danger” argument, take into account what sort of precedent would be good to set? An agreed upon division of territory or enforced dismemberment by outside powers?
It would be ludicrous to believe that there won’t be further balkanization of the Balkans at some point in the future. If done in a peaceful agreed upon manner with real backing and full support of all of the UNSC the potential for danger is minimal.
If you’re really worried about that sort of thing, I would think you’d back Kosovo remaining within Serbia, that is the safest precedent really.
I do believe most Albanians and most Serbs could live with partition as a solution.
hi PB
Right, but partition is high potential danger, taking into account that Balkan’s nations aren’t that homogeneously spread out. For example, only in Serbia there are Albanians majority in at least three municipalities, then Hungarians, Muslims etc. I won’t continue with other states, regions etc. I don’t know what the rest think about living in Serbia if partition runs as a solution, but I know 100 % what Albanians think about.
Regards…
Laki Bani - i agree that a partition of Kosovo would be good for the region - it's what i have always advocated, but don't make the mistake in thinking that it was Serbia that initiated the war which led to the position we are in today. the blame lays squarely at the feet of the CIA sponsored KLA.
Dear PB even I agree, a few links posted won’t for sure change THE REALITY.
I can offer thousand and thousands links about assassinations, atrocities, and most heartless deeds by Serbian military & paramilitary forces all over Ex-Yu, which indicates that no other solution but independence of Kosova is acceptable according to all written and unwritten laws in the world. Thus, we (and the rest of the civilized world) are not claiming acceptance of the independence as the only solution as a political goal, but as a solution which will stabilize the whole region. Because, I don’t think Serbians will grab arms and start new war if Kosova gains independence. In other side Albanians are fed up with the status quo. They would rather live as a civilized society, with all opportunities that it offers.
Sorry for the late response, but yesterday I was too busy to reply.
Finally Kate, a moderate voice in what is obviously a very emotionally charged subject. I agree that both sides must see benefits in order to achieve "compromise", but the agressive rhetoric from both sides would seem to blind both from the future. What is missed regularly, is that both sides committed various atrocities, so why is it only one side we see losing here ?
The compromise should also be part of the talks because until the major powers start talking properly and find compromise within themselves, the status-quo will be maintained, and that benefits no-one.
To kate
i understand that you mean well with your great autonomy, but there are more facts that you have no idea about such as culture language and traditions,religion. in international law as you talk so dearly about it, i am sure you know that the strong make that law, as was the case in the 1900s when that land was stamped with the yugo stamp, the strong again changed it when Yugoslavian broke to pieces by slavik origin people who had nearly the same culture and traditions as serbia. As you know with out people being certain in a country's status such as Kosovas right now there wont be any help from any investment from fear. This is a reason that makes the people of that region now sceptical of your great autonomy or even talks. The great albania myth that everyone in serbia is "scared" is like the old coments of kustunica couple of months ago saying we will get back serb lands from croatia and bosnia, in other words laughable.
I am disappointed kate with your double standard in joining the EU as from what i can gather you are praying for russia to split the EU in order to stall a process that should have not even be happening if it was not for the great old dream of yugoslavia. sometime i feel that if countrys had wheels your current government would had driven serbia in the heart of muscovia.
Kate you and me both know that even if your great autonomy was established over kosovo, the people there would have to watch EU soldier protect them from serbia, meaning they still would be second hand citizens. thats no way to live. And kate its not only you and me who know about this delema thats why the 3 of the 5 major countrys are in are in favour for independence, 1 is a big factory, who produces goods for this 3 countrys(china),1 uses independence to gain whatever it can on the back of the people of kosovo. and no kate none of them really care about neither kosovo nor serbia but as you said its called diplomacy.
Collected by International Association of Lawyers Against Nuclear Arms, IALANA
1. Opinion of the Upper Administrative Court at Mnster, March 11, 1999 (Az: 13A 3894/94.A):
"Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo have neither been nor are now exposed to regional or countrywide group persecution in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."
2. Opinion of the Bavarian Administrative Court, October 29, 1998 (Az: 22 BA 94.34252):
"The Foreign Office's status reports of May 6, June 8 and July 13, 1998, given to the plaintiffs in the summons to a verbal deliberation, do not allow the conclusion that there is group persecution of ethnic Albanians from Kosovo. Not even regional group persecution, applied to all ethnic Albanians from a specific part of Kosovo, can be observed with sufficient certainty. The violent actions of the Yugoslav military and police since February 1998 were aimed at separatist activities and are no proof of a persecution of the whole Albanian ethnic group in Kosovo or in a part of it. What was involved in the Yugoslav violent actions and excesses since February 1998 was a selective forcible action against the military underground movement (especially the KLA) and people in immediate contact with it in its areas of operation. ...A state program or persecution aimed at the whole ethnic group of Albanians exists neither now nor earlier."
3. Intelligence report from the Foreign Office, January 12, 1999 to the Administrative Court of Trier (Az: 514-516.80/32 426):
"Even in Kosovo an explicit political persecution linked to Albanian ethnicity is not verifiable. The East of Kosovo is still not involved in armed conflict. Public life in cities like Pristina, Urosevac, Gnjilan, etc. has, in the entire conflict period, continued on a relatively normal basis." The "actions of the security forces (were) not directed against the Kosovo-Albanians as an ethnically defined group, but against the military opponent and its actual or alleged supporters."
4. Intelligence report from the Foreign Office January 6, 1999 to the Bavarian Administrative Court, Ansbach:
"At this time, an increasing tendency is observable inside the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia of refugees returning to their dwellings. ... Regardless of the desolate economic situation in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (according to official information of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia 700,000 refugees from Croatia, Bosnia and Herzogovina have found lodging since 1991), no cases of chronic malnutrition or insufficient medical treatment among the refugees are known and significant homelessness has not been observed. ... According to the Foreign Office's assessment, individual Kosovo-Albanians (and their immediate families) still have limited possibilities of settling in those parts of Yugoslavia in which their countrymen or friends already live and who are ready to take them in and support them."
5. Report of the Foreign Office March 15, 1999 (Az: 514-516,80/33841) to the Administrative Court, Mainz:
"As laid out in the status report of November 18, 1998, the KLA has resumed its positions after the partial withdrawal of the (Serbian) security forces in October 1998, so it once again controls broad areas in the zone of conflict. Before the beginning of spring 1999 there were still clashes between the KLA and security forces, although these have not until now reached the intensity of the battles of spring and summer 1998."
6. Opinion of the Administrative Court of Baden-Wrttemberg, February 4, 1999 (Az: A 14 S 22276/9:
"The various reports presented to the senate all agree that the often feared humanitarian catastrophe threatening the Albanian civil population has been averted. ... This appears to be the case since the winding down of combat in connection with an agreement made with the Serbian leadership at the end of 1998 (Status Report of the Foreign Office, November 18, 1998). Since that time both the security situation and the conditions of life of the Albanian-derived population have noticeably improved. ... Specifically in the larger cities public life has since returned to relative normality (cf. on this Foreign Office, January 12, 1999 to the Administrative Court of Trier; December 28, 1998 to the Upper Administrative Court of Lneberg and December 23, 1998 to the Administrative Court at Kassel), even though tensions between the population groups have meanwhile increased due to individual acts of violence... Single instances of excessive acts of violence against the civil population, e.g. in Racak, have, in world opinion, been laid at the feet of the Serbian side and have aroused great indignation. But the number and frequency of such excesses do not warrant the conclusion that every Albanian living in Kosovo is exposed to extreme danger to life and limb nor is everyone who returns there threatened with death and severe injury."
7. Opinion of the Upper Administrative Court at Mnster, February 24, 1999 (Az: 14 A 3840/94,A):
"There is no sufficient actual proof of a secret program, or an unspoken consensus on the Serbian side, to liquidate the Albanian people, to drive it out or otherwise to persecute it in the extrememanner presently described. ... If Serbian state power carries out its laws and in so doing necessarily puts pressure on an Albanian ethnic group which turns its back on the state and is for supporting a boycott, then the objective direction of these measures is not that of a programmatic persecution of this population group ...Even if the Serbian state were benevolently to accept or even to intend that a part of the citizenry which sees itself in a hopeless situation or opposescompulsory measures, should emigrate, this still does not represent a program of persecution aimed at the whole of the Albanian majority (in Kosovo)."
"If moreover the (Yugoslav) state reacts to separatist strivings with consistent and harsh execution of its laws and with anti-separatist measures, and if some of those involved decide to go abroad as a result, this is still not a deliberate policy of the (Yugoslav) state aiming at ostracizing and expelling the minority; on the contrary it is directed toward keeping this people within the state federation."
"Events since February and March 1998 do not evidence a persecution program based on Albanian ethnicity. The measures taken by the armed Serbian forces are in the first instance directed toward combatting the KLA and its supposed adherents and supporters."
Notes
As in the case of the Clinton Administration, the present regime in Germany, specifically Joschka Fischer's Foreign Office, has justified its intervention in Kosovo by pointing to a "humanitarian catastrophe," "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" occurring there, especially in the months immediately preceding the NATO attack.
The above internal documents from Fischer's ministry and from various regional Administrative Courts in Germany spanning the year before the start of NATO's air attacks, attest that criteria of ethnic cleansing and genocide were not met.
The Foreign Office documents were responses to the courts' needs in deciding the status of Kosovo-Albanian refugees in Germany. Although one might in these cases suppose a bias in favor of downplaying a humanitarian catastrophe in order to limit refugees, it nevertheless remains highly significant that the Foreign Office, in contrast to its public assertion of ethnic cleansing and genocide in justifying NATO intervention, privately continued to deny their existence as Yugoslav policy in this crucial period. And this continued to be their assessment even in March of this year. Thus these documents tend to show that stopping genocide was not the reason the German government, and by implication NATO, intervened in Kosovo, and that genocide (as understood in German and international law) in Kosovo did not March, 1999, but is a product of it.
Sources
Excerpts from the these official documents were obtained by IALANA (International Association of Lawyers Against Nuclear Arms) which sent them to various media. The texts used here were published in the German daily Junge Welt on April 24, 1999. See
http://www.jungewelt.de/1999/04-24/011.shtml as well as the commentary at http://www.jungewelt.de/1999/04-24/001.shtml).
This seems to be as complete a reproduction of the documents as exists in the German media at the time of this writing.
"its population expulsed from their land"
The same can be said of the Croatian army regarding the
Serb civilians (being protected by the UN) in the Krajina.
The former Yugoslavia is a land of contradictions and those saying narrow minded, self-serving comments are easily trapped.
The west should have never interfered in the first place. Now there is a considerable mess that the Clinton/Albright/Holbrooke circus created. The Serbs were cracking down on insurgents bent on taking this land away from Serbia. Suppose the immigrant population got so bad in America that hispanics wanted Texas or California. What do you suppose the US response would be? Imagine then that other countries got involved and bombed the US into giving them this land??? Way to go NATO.
Kate,
I see that is too dificult for you to understand the reality.
First, Serbia is not the owner of that land but an illegal holder.
Second, Serbia has lost its power to negotiate as equal partner at the moment they lost the war against NATO in Kosova. The power to negotiate is on the wining side.
Third, noone will ever let the wolf take care of the sheeps, unless your mind is not sound enough.
These three simple things are so dificult to be digested by Serbs and Serb supporters.
I hope one day they will and the sun will shine again for your Nation. Until than Good Luck!!!
The people who believe that autonomy or some other kind of Serbain sovreginty over Kosovo, would work, are either:
-wishful thinking
- or it shows their lack of knowledge and understanding of the situation on the ground, and it clearly shows that they have not been in kosovo in the last 10 years for considerable amount of time, and clearly they do not understand the feelings of albanians.
The most important fact that won't change is that. Albanians will never ever accept anykind of Serbian sovregnity over Kosovo, even if its only symbolical, and since K albanians live in Kosovo and have nowhere to go. Therefore any 'solution' less than independence is not a solution but a problem.
Worst case scenario that could happen for Kosovo, is partition, i.e. main part of Kosovo will still get independece.
Whe you have even european sceptics saying that Serbia retaining sovergnity is' unthinkable', 'unimaginable', and that independence of Kosovo is 'imminent', 'inevitable' - says it all.
Laki Bani, neither has "We will only accept an independent Kosovo" as quoted many times by the albanian regime (backed by the USA).
Maybe you should also read the links i attached in other comments (article: Day two Bush-Putin meetings)and you'll read exactly why the KLA and Kosovo are being given "preferential" treatment by the West. To summarize for you, it has nothing to do wth Albanian legitimacy to claim Serbian land as a punishment, rather to secure control over land which will inthe future have a pipeline running over it.
So all the albanians who keep comenting about milosevic, ethnic cleansing (a term used by the KLA by the way to describe how they were to expel the Serb population - read the link) and the alleged Serb genocide against them, GET A REALITY CHECK AND READ THE LINKS.
After you read these articles, then tell me the wars in former Yugoslavia were due to "Serb Aggressors".
Victor, you and your fellow croats should be apologising for starting the war in Croatia, the ethnic cleansing of the entire Serb population of Krajina and, belatedly, for the WWII genocide by the Croats.
Victor, if that's the case then the Serbs should be alowed a to return to Krajina, and b0 be allowed independence from Croatia. what's fair for one group of people is fair for another.
P.S. have you read the links in the two comments i have submitted? maybe you'd like to comment on Croatia's role in Croatia and Bosnia, and the KLA's in Kosovo as described in both articles and written by former ministers of the britsh and australian govt's.
Looking at it logically, Kosovo is part of Serbian territory (I am not saying this aggravate, I am just stating a fact).
On one side you have a nation being asked to give up land, and on the other side you have a majority ethnic group demanding ownership of that land.
The current owner will always be in a stronger position. If the argument holds that Serbia does not deserve to keep Kosovo, then that should have been negotiated into the settlement in 1999. It wasn't, and under Resolution 1244 Serbia still holds the province.
On the other hand, it is clear that Serbia can't just immediately start to govern Kosovo again. So, yet again, what is wrong with a high level of autonomy?
One argument given previously to this question was that only under independence could the Kosovo Albanians be certain that they would not have the status revoked.
This is a good argument, but not a reason in itself for independence. How can anyone be certain that once independent Kosovo won't be joined onto Albania? There are never any certainties, but the best offered are those written in international law and agreements.
True autonomy would be respected, retained and monitored. There would be a lot of room for agreement within that for governing the province. What would be wrong with this?
Serbia could then go forward into the EU etc. WITH Kosovo and both would benefit.
Here's how compromise will work, Victor et al. In the world of logic and reason, we compromise by making sacrifices in our own corner for the sake of finding common ground with the other side while still trying to meet our primary goals. In La-La world, compromise is apparently understood as "I get everything I am demanding and you get nothing. Why can't you realize this?"
So what do we do? If the Albanans want independence at any cost, I say make it very costly to achieve independence. Joint sovereignty? Bizonal confederacy? Compensation for land? Population exchange? The possibilities are numerous, but it's painfully obvious that the worn out Albanian strategy of hurling demands behind the American bodyguard isn't working anymore. If Serbia realized it can't control Kosovo anymore, it can still make considerable demands on Pristina and Washington to meet in order for Belgrade to stop obstructing, well, you know, the dismemberment of it's own state.
«...independent Kosovo could destabilize not only the Balkans but other regions as well.»
I do not agree with such a scenario of catastrophy. Kosovo has been destroyed by the Serbs in a matter of 78 days, its population expulsed from their land, and Mr Tadic says he could compromise with the people of Kosovo! On what, may I ask? He did not 'comprehend' yet that the people from Kosovo, with a huge majority, want the independence. This is the only and best compromise for the future of Ksovo and Serbia. Any other solution could lead, not only to destabilization but even to war with Kosovo and NATO.
Keep your mind on this; President Boris Tadić has said in Strasbourg Monday he believed the Kosovo dialogue will produce a compromise. Wonderful, I would say.
But; “Serbia will never give up …., and; we are against Kosovo’s independence.” Has nothing to do with dialogue.
Keep your mind on this; President Boris Tadić has said in Strasbourg Monday he believed the Kosovo dialogue will produce a compromise. Wonderful, I would say.
But; “Serbia will never give up …., and; we are against Kosovo’s independence.” Has nothing to do with dialogue.
«...independent Kosovo could destabilize not only the Balkans but other regions as well.»
I do not agree with such a scenario of catastrophy. Kosovo has been destroyed by the Serbs in a matter of 78 days, its population expulsed from their land, and Mr Tadic says he could compromise with the people of Kosovo! On what, may I ask? He did not 'comprehend' yet that the people from Kosovo, with a huge majority, want the independence. This is the only and best compromise for the future of Ksovo and Serbia. Any other solution could lead, not only to destabilization but even to war with Kosovo and NATO.
Here's how compromise will work, Victor et al. In the world of logic and reason, we compromise by making sacrifices in our own corner for the sake of finding common ground with the other side while still trying to meet our primary goals. In La-La world, compromise is apparently understood as "I get everything I am demanding and you get nothing. Why can't you realize this?"
So what do we do? If the Albanans want independence at any cost, I say make it very costly to achieve independence. Joint sovereignty? Bizonal confederacy? Compensation for land? Population exchange? The possibilities are numerous, but it's painfully obvious that the worn out Albanian strategy of hurling demands behind the American bodyguard isn't working anymore. If Serbia realized it can't control Kosovo anymore, it can still make considerable demands on Pristina and Washington to meet in order for Belgrade to stop obstructing, well, you know, the dismemberment of it's own state.
Looking at it logically, Kosovo is part of Serbian territory (I am not saying this aggravate, I am just stating a fact).
On one side you have a nation being asked to give up land, and on the other side you have a majority ethnic group demanding ownership of that land.
The current owner will always be in a stronger position. If the argument holds that Serbia does not deserve to keep Kosovo, then that should have been negotiated into the settlement in 1999. It wasn't, and under Resolution 1244 Serbia still holds the province.
On the other hand, it is clear that Serbia can't just immediately start to govern Kosovo again. So, yet again, what is wrong with a high level of autonomy?
One argument given previously to this question was that only under independence could the Kosovo Albanians be certain that they would not have the status revoked.
This is a good argument, but not a reason in itself for independence. How can anyone be certain that once independent Kosovo won't be joined onto Albania? There are never any certainties, but the best offered are those written in international law and agreements.
True autonomy would be respected, retained and monitored. There would be a lot of room for agreement within that for governing the province. What would be wrong with this?
Serbia could then go forward into the EU etc. WITH Kosovo and both would benefit.
The people who believe that autonomy or some other kind of Serbain sovreginty over Kosovo, would work, are either:
-wishful thinking
- or it shows their lack of knowledge and understanding of the situation on the ground, and it clearly shows that they have not been in kosovo in the last 10 years for considerable amount of time, and clearly they do not understand the feelings of albanians.
The most important fact that won't change is that. Albanians will never ever accept anykind of Serbian sovregnity over Kosovo, even if its only symbolical, and since K albanians live in Kosovo and have nowhere to go. Therefore any 'solution' less than independence is not a solution but a problem.
Worst case scenario that could happen for Kosovo, is partition, i.e. main part of Kosovo will still get independece.
Whe you have even european sceptics saying that Serbia retaining sovergnity is' unthinkable', 'unimaginable', and that independence of Kosovo is 'imminent', 'inevitable' - says it all.
Victor, if that's the case then the Serbs should be alowed a to return to Krajina, and b0 be allowed independence from Croatia. what's fair for one group of people is fair for another.
P.S. have you read the links in the two comments i have submitted? maybe you'd like to comment on Croatia's role in Croatia and Bosnia, and the KLA's in Kosovo as described in both articles and written by former ministers of the britsh and australian govt's.
Laki Bani, neither has "We will only accept an independent Kosovo" as quoted many times by the albanian regime (backed by the USA).
Maybe you should also read the links i attached in other comments (article: Day two Bush-Putin meetings)and you'll read exactly why the KLA and Kosovo are being given "preferential" treatment by the West. To summarize for you, it has nothing to do wth Albanian legitimacy to claim Serbian land as a punishment, rather to secure control over land which will inthe future have a pipeline running over it.
So all the albanians who keep comenting about milosevic, ethnic cleansing (a term used by the KLA by the way to describe how they were to expel the Serb population - read the link) and the alleged Serb genocide against them, GET A REALITY CHECK AND READ THE LINKS.
After you read these articles, then tell me the wars in former Yugoslavia were due to "Serb Aggressors".
Victor, you and your fellow croats should be apologising for starting the war in Croatia, the ethnic cleansing of the entire Serb population of Krajina and, belatedly, for the WWII genocide by the Croats.
Kate,
I see that is too dificult for you to understand the reality.
First, Serbia is not the owner of that land but an illegal holder.
Second, Serbia has lost its power to negotiate as equal partner at the moment they lost the war against NATO in Kosova. The power to negotiate is on the wining side.
Third, noone will ever let the wolf take care of the sheeps, unless your mind is not sound enough.
These three simple things are so dificult to be digested by Serbs and Serb supporters.
I hope one day they will and the sun will shine again for your Nation. Until than Good Luck!!!
The west should have never interfered in the first place. Now there is a considerable mess that the Clinton/Albright/Holbrooke circus created. The Serbs were cracking down on insurgents bent on taking this land away from Serbia. Suppose the immigrant population got so bad in America that hispanics wanted Texas or California. What do you suppose the US response would be? Imagine then that other countries got involved and bombed the US into giving them this land??? Way to go NATO.
"its population expulsed from their land"
The same can be said of the Croatian army regarding the
Serb civilians (being protected by the UN) in the Krajina.
The former Yugoslavia is a land of contradictions and those saying narrow minded, self-serving comments are easily trapped.
To kate
i understand that you mean well with your great autonomy, but there are more facts that you have no idea about such as culture language and traditions,religion. in international law as you talk so dearly about it, i am sure you know that the strong make that law, as was the case in the 1900s when that land was stamped with the yugo stamp, the strong again changed it when Yugoslavian broke to pieces by slavik origin people who had nearly the same culture and traditions as serbia. As you know with out people being certain in a country's status such as Kosovas right now there wont be any help from any investment from fear. This is a reason that makes the people of that region now sceptical of your great autonomy or even talks. The great albania myth that everyone in serbia is "scared" is like the old coments of kustunica couple of months ago saying we will get back serb lands from croatia and bosnia, in other words laughable.
I am disappointed kate with your double standard in joining the EU as from what i can gather you are praying for russia to split the EU in order to stall a process that should have not even be happening if it was not for the great old dream of yugoslavia. sometime i feel that if countrys had wheels your current government would had driven serbia in the heart of muscovia.
Kate you and me both know that even if your great autonomy was established over kosovo, the people there would have to watch EU soldier protect them from serbia, meaning they still would be second hand citizens. thats no way to live. And kate its not only you and me who know about this delema thats why the 3 of the 5 major countrys are in are in favour for independence, 1 is a big factory, who produces goods for this 3 countrys(china),1 uses independence to gain whatever it can on the back of the people of kosovo. and no kate none of them really care about neither kosovo nor serbia but as you said its called diplomacy.
Collected by International Association of Lawyers Against Nuclear Arms, IALANA
1. Opinion of the Upper Administrative Court at Mnster, March 11, 1999 (Az: 13A 3894/94.A):
"Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo have neither been nor are now exposed to regional or countrywide group persecution in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."
2. Opinion of the Bavarian Administrative Court, October 29, 1998 (Az: 22 BA 94.34252):
"The Foreign Office's status reports of May 6, June 8 and July 13, 1998, given to the plaintiffs in the summons to a verbal deliberation, do not allow the conclusion that there is group persecution of ethnic Albanians from Kosovo. Not even regional group persecution, applied to all ethnic Albanians from a specific part of Kosovo, can be observed with sufficient certainty. The violent actions of the Yugoslav military and police since February 1998 were aimed at separatist activities and are no proof of a persecution of the whole Albanian ethnic group in Kosovo or in a part of it. What was involved in the Yugoslav violent actions and excesses since February 1998 was a selective forcible action against the military underground movement (especially the KLA) and people in immediate contact with it in its areas of operation. ...A state program or persecution aimed at the whole ethnic group of Albanians exists neither now nor earlier."
3. Intelligence report from the Foreign Office, January 12, 1999 to the Administrative Court of Trier (Az: 514-516.80/32 426):
"Even in Kosovo an explicit political persecution linked to Albanian ethnicity is not verifiable. The East of Kosovo is still not involved in armed conflict. Public life in cities like Pristina, Urosevac, Gnjilan, etc. has, in the entire conflict period, continued on a relatively normal basis." The "actions of the security forces (were) not directed against the Kosovo-Albanians as an ethnically defined group, but against the military opponent and its actual or alleged supporters."
4. Intelligence report from the Foreign Office January 6, 1999 to the Bavarian Administrative Court, Ansbach:
"At this time, an increasing tendency is observable inside the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia of refugees returning to their dwellings. ... Regardless of the desolate economic situation in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (according to official information of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia 700,000 refugees from Croatia, Bosnia and Herzogovina have found lodging since 1991), no cases of chronic malnutrition or insufficient medical treatment among the refugees are known and significant homelessness has not been observed. ... According to the Foreign Office's assessment, individual Kosovo-Albanians (and their immediate families) still have limited possibilities of settling in those parts of Yugoslavia in which their countrymen or friends already live and who are ready to take them in and support them."
5. Report of the Foreign Office March 15, 1999 (Az: 514-516,80/33841) to the Administrative Court, Mainz:
"As laid out in the status report of November 18, 1998, the KLA has resumed its positions after the partial withdrawal of the (Serbian) security forces in October 1998, so it once again controls broad areas in the zone of conflict. Before the beginning of spring 1999 there were still clashes between the KLA and security forces, although these have not until now reached the intensity of the battles of spring and summer 1998."
6. Opinion of the Administrative Court of Baden-Wrttemberg, February 4, 1999 (Az: A 14 S 22276/9:
"The various reports presented to the senate all agree that the often feared humanitarian catastrophe threatening the Albanian civil population has been averted. ... This appears to be the case since the winding down of combat in connection with an agreement made with the Serbian leadership at the end of 1998 (Status Report of the Foreign Office, November 18, 1998). Since that time both the security situation and the conditions of life of the Albanian-derived population have noticeably improved. ... Specifically in the larger cities public life has since returned to relative normality (cf. on this Foreign Office, January 12, 1999 to the Administrative Court of Trier; December 28, 1998 to the Upper Administrative Court of Lneberg and December 23, 1998 to the Administrative Court at Kassel), even though tensions between the population groups have meanwhile increased due to individual acts of violence... Single instances of excessive acts of violence against the civil population, e.g. in Racak, have, in world opinion, been laid at the feet of the Serbian side and have aroused great indignation. But the number and frequency of such excesses do not warrant the conclusion that every Albanian living in Kosovo is exposed to extreme danger to life and limb nor is everyone who returns there threatened with death and severe injury."
7. Opinion of the Upper Administrative Court at Mnster, February 24, 1999 (Az: 14 A 3840/94,A):
"There is no sufficient actual proof of a secret program, or an unspoken consensus on the Serbian side, to liquidate the Albanian people, to drive it out or otherwise to persecute it in the extrememanner presently described. ... If Serbian state power carries out its laws and in so doing necessarily puts pressure on an Albanian ethnic group which turns its back on the state and is for supporting a boycott, then the objective direction of these measures is not that of a programmatic persecution of this population group ...Even if the Serbian state were benevolently to accept or even to intend that a part of the citizenry which sees itself in a hopeless situation or opposescompulsory measures, should emigrate, this still does not represent a program of persecution aimed at the whole of the Albanian majority (in Kosovo)."
"If moreover the (Yugoslav) state reacts to separatist strivings with consistent and harsh execution of its laws and with anti-separatist measures, and if some of those involved decide to go abroad as a result, this is still not a deliberate policy of the (Yugoslav) state aiming at ostracizing and expelling the minority; on the contrary it is directed toward keeping this people within the state federation."
"Events since February and March 1998 do not evidence a persecution program based on Albanian ethnicity. The measures taken by the armed Serbian forces are in the first instance directed toward combatting the KLA and its supposed adherents and supporters."
Notes
As in the case of the Clinton Administration, the present regime in Germany, specifically Joschka Fischer's Foreign Office, has justified its intervention in Kosovo by pointing to a "humanitarian catastrophe," "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" occurring there, especially in the months immediately preceding the NATO attack.
The above internal documents from Fischer's ministry and from various regional Administrative Courts in Germany spanning the year before the start of NATO's air attacks, attest that criteria of ethnic cleansing and genocide were not met.
The Foreign Office documents were responses to the courts' needs in deciding the status of Kosovo-Albanian refugees in Germany. Although one might in these cases suppose a bias in favor of downplaying a humanitarian catastrophe in order to limit refugees, it nevertheless remains highly significant that the Foreign Office, in contrast to its public assertion of ethnic cleansing and genocide in justifying NATO intervention, privately continued to deny their existence as Yugoslav policy in this crucial period. And this continued to be their assessment even in March of this year. Thus these documents tend to show that stopping genocide was not the reason the German government, and by implication NATO, intervened in Kosovo, and that genocide (as understood in German and international law) in Kosovo did not March, 1999, but is a product of it.
Sources
Excerpts from the these official documents were obtained by IALANA (International Association of Lawyers Against Nuclear Arms) which sent them to various media. The texts used here were published in the German daily Junge Welt on April 24, 1999. See
http://www.jungewelt.de/1999/04-24/011.shtml as well as the commentary at http://www.jungewelt.de/1999/04-24/001.shtml).
This seems to be as complete a reproduction of the documents as exists in the German media at the time of this writing.
Finally Kate, a moderate voice in what is obviously a very emotionally charged subject. I agree that both sides must see benefits in order to achieve "compromise", but the agressive rhetoric from both sides would seem to blind both from the future. What is missed regularly, is that both sides committed various atrocities, so why is it only one side we see losing here ?
The compromise should also be part of the talks because until the major powers start talking properly and find compromise within themselves, the status-quo will be maintained, and that benefits no-one.
Dear PB even I agree, a few links posted won’t for sure change THE REALITY.
I can offer thousand and thousands links about assassinations, atrocities, and most heartless deeds by Serbian military & paramilitary forces all over Ex-Yu, which indicates that no other solution but independence of Kosova is acceptable according to all written and unwritten laws in the world. Thus, we (and the rest of the civilized world) are not claiming acceptance of the independence as the only solution as a political goal, but as a solution which will stabilize the whole region. Because, I don’t think Serbians will grab arms and start new war if Kosova gains independence. In other side Albanians are fed up with the status quo. They would rather live as a civilized society, with all opportunities that it offers.
Sorry for the late response, but yesterday I was too busy to reply.
Laki Bani - i agree that a partition of Kosovo would be good for the region - it's what i have always advocated, but don't make the mistake in thinking that it was Serbia that initiated the war which led to the position we are in today. the blame lays squarely at the feet of the CIA sponsored KLA.
hi PB
Right, but partition is high potential danger, taking into account that Balkan’s nations aren’t that homogeneously spread out. For example, only in Serbia there are Albanians majority in at least three municipalities, then Hungarians, Muslims etc. I won’t continue with other states, regions etc. I don’t know what the rest think about living in Serbia if partition runs as a solution, but I know 100 % what Albanians think about.
Regards…
“Right, but partition is high potential danger, taking into account that Balkan’s nations aren’t that homogeneously spread out. (laki bani, Tuesday, 3 July, 2007, 19:51)”
Laki,
If you make the “potential danger” argument, take into account what sort of precedent would be good to set? An agreed upon division of territory or enforced dismemberment by outside powers?
It would be ludicrous to believe that there won’t be further balkanization of the Balkans at some point in the future. If done in a peaceful agreed upon manner with real backing and full support of all of the UNSC the potential for danger is minimal.
If you’re really worried about that sort of thing, I would think you’d back Kosovo remaining within Serbia, that is the safest precedent really.
I do believe most Albanians and most Serbs could live with partition as a solution.
I’m always interested in discussing ideas with educated people in a rational manner. Partition is not perfect, so I do value any valid criticisms of it.
Keep your mind on this; President Boris Tadić has said in Strasbourg Monday he believed the Kosovo dialogue will produce a compromise. Wonderful, I would say.
But; “Serbia will never give up …., and; we are against Kosovo’s independence.” Has nothing to do with dialogue.
«...independent Kosovo could destabilize not only the Balkans but other regions as well.»
I do not agree with such a scenario of catastrophy. Kosovo has been destroyed by the Serbs in a matter of 78 days, its population expulsed from their land, and Mr Tadic says he could compromise with the people of Kosovo! On what, may I ask? He did not 'comprehend' yet that the people from Kosovo, with a huge majority, want the independence. This is the only and best compromise for the future of Ksovo and Serbia. Any other solution could lead, not only to destabilization but even to war with Kosovo and NATO.
Here's how compromise will work, Victor et al. In the world of logic and reason, we compromise by making sacrifices in our own corner for the sake of finding common ground with the other side while still trying to meet our primary goals. In La-La world, compromise is apparently understood as "I get everything I am demanding and you get nothing. Why can't you realize this?"
So what do we do? If the Albanans want independence at any cost, I say make it very costly to achieve independence. Joint sovereignty? Bizonal confederacy? Compensation for land? Population exchange? The possibilities are numerous, but it's painfully obvious that the worn out Albanian strategy of hurling demands behind the American bodyguard isn't working anymore. If Serbia realized it can't control Kosovo anymore, it can still make considerable demands on Pristina and Washington to meet in order for Belgrade to stop obstructing, well, you know, the dismemberment of it's own state.
Looking at it logically, Kosovo is part of Serbian territory (I am not saying this aggravate, I am just stating a fact).
On one side you have a nation being asked to give up land, and on the other side you have a majority ethnic group demanding ownership of that land.
The current owner will always be in a stronger position. If the argument holds that Serbia does not deserve to keep Kosovo, then that should have been negotiated into the settlement in 1999. It wasn't, and under Resolution 1244 Serbia still holds the province.
On the other hand, it is clear that Serbia can't just immediately start to govern Kosovo again. So, yet again, what is wrong with a high level of autonomy?
One argument given previously to this question was that only under independence could the Kosovo Albanians be certain that they would not have the status revoked.
This is a good argument, but not a reason in itself for independence. How can anyone be certain that once independent Kosovo won't be joined onto Albania? There are never any certainties, but the best offered are those written in international law and agreements.
True autonomy would be respected, retained and monitored. There would be a lot of room for agreement within that for governing the province. What would be wrong with this?
Serbia could then go forward into the EU etc. WITH Kosovo and both would benefit.
The people who believe that autonomy or some other kind of Serbain sovreginty over Kosovo, would work, are either:
-wishful thinking
- or it shows their lack of knowledge and understanding of the situation on the ground, and it clearly shows that they have not been in kosovo in the last 10 years for considerable amount of time, and clearly they do not understand the feelings of albanians.
The most important fact that won't change is that. Albanians will never ever accept anykind of Serbian sovregnity over Kosovo, even if its only symbolical, and since K albanians live in Kosovo and have nowhere to go. Therefore any 'solution' less than independence is not a solution but a problem.
Worst case scenario that could happen for Kosovo, is partition, i.e. main part of Kosovo will still get independece.
Whe you have even european sceptics saying that Serbia retaining sovergnity is' unthinkable', 'unimaginable', and that independence of Kosovo is 'imminent', 'inevitable' - says it all.
Victor, if that's the case then the Serbs should be alowed a to return to Krajina, and b0 be allowed independence from Croatia. what's fair for one group of people is fair for another.
P.S. have you read the links in the two comments i have submitted? maybe you'd like to comment on Croatia's role in Croatia and Bosnia, and the KLA's in Kosovo as described in both articles and written by former ministers of the britsh and australian govt's.
Laki Bani, neither has "We will only accept an independent Kosovo" as quoted many times by the albanian regime (backed by the USA).
Maybe you should also read the links i attached in other comments (article: Day two Bush-Putin meetings)and you'll read exactly why the KLA and Kosovo are being given "preferential" treatment by the West. To summarize for you, it has nothing to do wth Albanian legitimacy to claim Serbian land as a punishment, rather to secure control over land which will inthe future have a pipeline running over it.
So all the albanians who keep comenting about milosevic, ethnic cleansing (a term used by the KLA by the way to describe how they were to expel the Serb population - read the link) and the alleged Serb genocide against them, GET A REALITY CHECK AND READ THE LINKS.
After you read these articles, then tell me the wars in former Yugoslavia were due to "Serb Aggressors".
Victor, you and your fellow croats should be apologising for starting the war in Croatia, the ethnic cleansing of the entire Serb population of Krajina and, belatedly, for the WWII genocide by the Croats.
Kate,
I see that is too dificult for you to understand the reality.
First, Serbia is not the owner of that land but an illegal holder.
Second, Serbia has lost its power to negotiate as equal partner at the moment they lost the war against NATO in Kosova. The power to negotiate is on the wining side.
Third, noone will ever let the wolf take care of the sheeps, unless your mind is not sound enough.
These three simple things are so dificult to be digested by Serbs and Serb supporters.
I hope one day they will and the sun will shine again for your Nation. Until than Good Luck!!!
The west should have never interfered in the first place. Now there is a considerable mess that the Clinton/Albright/Holbrooke circus created. The Serbs were cracking down on insurgents bent on taking this land away from Serbia. Suppose the immigrant population got so bad in America that hispanics wanted Texas or California. What do you suppose the US response would be? Imagine then that other countries got involved and bombed the US into giving them this land??? Way to go NATO.
"its population expulsed from their land"
The same can be said of the Croatian army regarding the
Serb civilians (being protected by the UN) in the Krajina.
The former Yugoslavia is a land of contradictions and those saying narrow minded, self-serving comments are easily trapped.
To kate
i understand that you mean well with your great autonomy, but there are more facts that you have no idea about such as culture language and traditions,religion. in international law as you talk so dearly about it, i am sure you know that the strong make that law, as was the case in the 1900s when that land was stamped with the yugo stamp, the strong again changed it when Yugoslavian broke to pieces by slavik origin people who had nearly the same culture and traditions as serbia. As you know with out people being certain in a country's status such as Kosovas right now there wont be any help from any investment from fear. This is a reason that makes the people of that region now sceptical of your great autonomy or even talks. The great albania myth that everyone in serbia is "scared" is like the old coments of kustunica couple of months ago saying we will get back serb lands from croatia and bosnia, in other words laughable.
I am disappointed kate with your double standard in joining the EU as from what i can gather you are praying for russia to split the EU in order to stall a process that should have not even be happening if it was not for the great old dream of yugoslavia. sometime i feel that if countrys had wheels your current government would had driven serbia in the heart of muscovia.
Kate you and me both know that even if your great autonomy was established over kosovo, the people there would have to watch EU soldier protect them from serbia, meaning they still would be second hand citizens. thats no way to live. And kate its not only you and me who know about this delema thats why the 3 of the 5 major countrys are in are in favour for independence, 1 is a big factory, who produces goods for this 3 countrys(china),1 uses independence to gain whatever it can on the back of the people of kosovo. and no kate none of them really care about neither kosovo nor serbia but as you said its called diplomacy.
Collected by International Association of Lawyers Against Nuclear Arms, IALANA
1. Opinion of the Upper Administrative Court at Mnster, March 11, 1999 (Az: 13A 3894/94.A):
"Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo have neither been nor are now exposed to regional or countrywide group persecution in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."
2. Opinion of the Bavarian Administrative Court, October 29, 1998 (Az: 22 BA 94.34252):
"The Foreign Office's status reports of May 6, June 8 and July 13, 1998, given to the plaintiffs in the summons to a verbal deliberation, do not allow the conclusion that there is group persecution of ethnic Albanians from Kosovo. Not even regional group persecution, applied to all ethnic Albanians from a specific part of Kosovo, can be observed with sufficient certainty. The violent actions of the Yugoslav military and police since February 1998 were aimed at separatist activities and are no proof of a persecution of the whole Albanian ethnic group in Kosovo or in a part of it. What was involved in the Yugoslav violent actions and excesses since February 1998 was a selective forcible action against the military underground movement (especially the KLA) and people in immediate contact with it in its areas of operation. ...A state program or persecution aimed at the whole ethnic group of Albanians exists neither now nor earlier."
3. Intelligence report from the Foreign Office, January 12, 1999 to the Administrative Court of Trier (Az: 514-516.80/32 426):
"Even in Kosovo an explicit political persecution linked to Albanian ethnicity is not verifiable. The East of Kosovo is still not involved in armed conflict. Public life in cities like Pristina, Urosevac, Gnjilan, etc. has, in the entire conflict period, continued on a relatively normal basis." The "actions of the security forces (were) not directed against the Kosovo-Albanians as an ethnically defined group, but against the military opponent and its actual or alleged supporters."
4. Intelligence report from the Foreign Office January 6, 1999 to the Bavarian Administrative Court, Ansbach:
"At this time, an increasing tendency is observable inside the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia of refugees returning to their dwellings. ... Regardless of the desolate economic situation in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (according to official information of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia 700,000 refugees from Croatia, Bosnia and Herzogovina have found lodging since 1991), no cases of chronic malnutrition or insufficient medical treatment among the refugees are known and significant homelessness has not been observed. ... According to the Foreign Office's assessment, individual Kosovo-Albanians (and their immediate families) still have limited possibilities of settling in those parts of Yugoslavia in which their countrymen or friends already live and who are ready to take them in and support them."
5. Report of the Foreign Office March 15, 1999 (Az: 514-516,80/33841) to the Administrative Court, Mainz:
"As laid out in the status report of November 18, 1998, the KLA has resumed its positions after the partial withdrawal of the (Serbian) security forces in October 1998, so it once again controls broad areas in the zone of conflict. Before the beginning of spring 1999 there were still clashes between the KLA and security forces, although these have not until now reached the intensity of the battles of spring and summer 1998."
6. Opinion of the Administrative Court of Baden-Wrttemberg, February 4, 1999 (Az: A 14 S 22276/9:
"The various reports presented to the senate all agree that the often feared humanitarian catastrophe threatening the Albanian civil population has been averted. ... This appears to be the case since the winding down of combat in connection with an agreement made with the Serbian leadership at the end of 1998 (Status Report of the Foreign Office, November 18, 1998). Since that time both the security situation and the conditions of life of the Albanian-derived population have noticeably improved. ... Specifically in the larger cities public life has since returned to relative normality (cf. on this Foreign Office, January 12, 1999 to the Administrative Court of Trier; December 28, 1998 to the Upper Administrative Court of Lneberg and December 23, 1998 to the Administrative Court at Kassel), even though tensions between the population groups have meanwhile increased due to individual acts of violence... Single instances of excessive acts of violence against the civil population, e.g. in Racak, have, in world opinion, been laid at the feet of the Serbian side and have aroused great indignation. But the number and frequency of such excesses do not warrant the conclusion that every Albanian living in Kosovo is exposed to extreme danger to life and limb nor is everyone who returns there threatened with death and severe injury."
7. Opinion of the Upper Administrative Court at Mnster, February 24, 1999 (Az: 14 A 3840/94,A):
"There is no sufficient actual proof of a secret program, or an unspoken consensus on the Serbian side, to liquidate the Albanian people, to drive it out or otherwise to persecute it in the extrememanner presently described. ... If Serbian state power carries out its laws and in so doing necessarily puts pressure on an Albanian ethnic group which turns its back on the state and is for supporting a boycott, then the objective direction of these measures is not that of a programmatic persecution of this population group ...Even if the Serbian state were benevolently to accept or even to intend that a part of the citizenry which sees itself in a hopeless situation or opposescompulsory measures, should emigrate, this still does not represent a program of persecution aimed at the whole of the Albanian majority (in Kosovo)."
"If moreover the (Yugoslav) state reacts to separatist strivings with consistent and harsh execution of its laws and with anti-separatist measures, and if some of those involved decide to go abroad as a result, this is still not a deliberate policy of the (Yugoslav) state aiming at ostracizing and expelling the minority; on the contrary it is directed toward keeping this people within the state federation."
"Events since February and March 1998 do not evidence a persecution program based on Albanian ethnicity. The measures taken by the armed Serbian forces are in the first instance directed toward combatting the KLA and its supposed adherents and supporters."
Notes
As in the case of the Clinton Administration, the present regime in Germany, specifically Joschka Fischer's Foreign Office, has justified its intervention in Kosovo by pointing to a "humanitarian catastrophe," "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" occurring there, especially in the months immediately preceding the NATO attack.
The above internal documents from Fischer's ministry and from various regional Administrative Courts in Germany spanning the year before the start of NATO's air attacks, attest that criteria of ethnic cleansing and genocide were not met.
The Foreign Office documents were responses to the courts' needs in deciding the status of Kosovo-Albanian refugees in Germany. Although one might in these cases suppose a bias in favor of downplaying a humanitarian catastrophe in order to limit refugees, it nevertheless remains highly significant that the Foreign Office, in contrast to its public assertion of ethnic cleansing and genocide in justifying NATO intervention, privately continued to deny their existence as Yugoslav policy in this crucial period. And this continued to be their assessment even in March of this year. Thus these documents tend to show that stopping genocide was not the reason the German government, and by implication NATO, intervened in Kosovo, and that genocide (as understood in German and international law) in Kosovo did not March, 1999, but is a product of it.
Sources
Excerpts from the these official documents were obtained by IALANA (International Association of Lawyers Against Nuclear Arms) which sent them to various media. The texts used here were published in the German daily Junge Welt on April 24, 1999. See
http://www.jungewelt.de/1999/04-24/011.shtml as well as the commentary at http://www.jungewelt.de/1999/04-24/001.shtml).
This seems to be as complete a reproduction of the documents as exists in the German media at the time of this writing.
Finally Kate, a moderate voice in what is obviously a very emotionally charged subject. I agree that both sides must see benefits in order to achieve "compromise", but the agressive rhetoric from both sides would seem to blind both from the future. What is missed regularly, is that both sides committed various atrocities, so why is it only one side we see losing here ?
The compromise should also be part of the talks because until the major powers start talking properly and find compromise within themselves, the status-quo will be maintained, and that benefits no-one.
Dear PB even I agree, a few links posted won’t for sure change THE REALITY.
I can offer thousand and thousands links about assassinations, atrocities, and most heartless deeds by Serbian military & paramilitary forces all over Ex-Yu, which indicates that no other solution but independence of Kosova is acceptable according to all written and unwritten laws in the world. Thus, we (and the rest of the civilized world) are not claiming acceptance of the independence as the only solution as a political goal, but as a solution which will stabilize the whole region. Because, I don’t think Serbians will grab arms and start new war if Kosova gains independence. In other side Albanians are fed up with the status quo. They would rather live as a civilized society, with all opportunities that it offers.
Sorry for the late response, but yesterday I was too busy to reply.
Laki Bani - i agree that a partition of Kosovo would be good for the region - it's what i have always advocated, but don't make the mistake in thinking that it was Serbia that initiated the war which led to the position we are in today. the blame lays squarely at the feet of the CIA sponsored KLA.
hi PB
Right, but partition is high potential danger, taking into account that Balkan’s nations aren’t that homogeneously spread out. For example, only in Serbia there are Albanians majority in at least three municipalities, then Hungarians, Muslims etc. I won’t continue with other states, regions etc. I don’t know what the rest think about living in Serbia if partition runs as a solution, but I know 100 % what Albanians think about.
Regards…
“Right, but partition is high potential danger, taking into account that Balkan’s nations aren’t that homogeneously spread out. (laki bani, Tuesday, 3 July, 2007, 19:51)”
Laki,
If you make the “potential danger” argument, take into account what sort of precedent would be good to set? An agreed upon division of territory or enforced dismemberment by outside powers?
It would be ludicrous to believe that there won’t be further balkanization of the Balkans at some point in the future. If done in a peaceful agreed upon manner with real backing and full support of all of the UNSC the potential for danger is minimal.
If you’re really worried about that sort of thing, I would think you’d back Kosovo remaining within Serbia, that is the safest precedent really.
I do believe most Albanians and most Serbs could live with partition as a solution.
I’m always interested in discussing ideas with educated people in a rational manner. Partition is not perfect, so I do value any valid criticisms of it.
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