Putin to push for more Kosovo talks

the GOOD MEN will prevail. RUSSIA is firm on its decision and CHINA is also apprehensive of the possible ourcome of Kosovo independence due to TAIWAN, TIBET and HONG KONG. also bush doesn't have much needed support from his own party anymore. it is clear that the tide has changed. GONE WITH THE WIND.

seems the russians are doing well against the US and EU in the UNSC diplomatic games and in the tennis world as well. serbians and russians are dominating the wimbledon thses days.

Folly has ended! Ahtisaari plan in it's entirity is finished - only a compromise possibly based on elements of Ahtisaari but strongly obligated by UN resolution 1244 and the helsinki act regarding Serbia's territorial integrity.

2nd of July will be a great day for Serbia when Outin will have put Bush right on international law, China will hold the the UN SC presidency and Portugal the EU. Even the UK Parliment is starting to question & look at all other alternatives - read the full discussion on 'kosovo' : Commons debates
(27 Jun 2007)
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2007-06-27a.439.0&s=kosovo

If you read the full debate you see the underlying message that UK government (till now a spearhead for this failed folly) is now starting to ponder and question and develop a sperate strategy from the US - the ILLEGALITY that Bush would persue would not be acceptable to the UK Parliment - I am certain the US have been informed.

"The new draft explicitly states that Kosovo is a special case due to “its history,” and that the Security Council will not be able to treat it as a precedent."

Subtext: "Just let us shaft this one country to get us out of this hole we've dug, and we promise never to do this again..."

Desperation time. Just move on to a proper draft allowing for the fulfilment of 1244 and the support of open talks in a bid to find a genuine solution.
Unless the UN wrenches Kosovo from Serbia by force (diplomatic not military) there is no way for the UNSC to remove the province and give independence.

I wouldn't put is past the current US administration to keep on trying anyway. The longer this goes on the worse it will be when the news is delivered to the Kosovo Albanian people.

Everyone is going to have to work together on this. It's outrageous that an ethnic group is supported in a bid for separatism by the US. Give away your own land - not another country's.

How many more times Moscow is going to b e asked before this resolution goes into effect?
I think is time to say just as President Bush said; " Enoguh is enough, Kosovo is independet", there is no need to waist time with Russian politic which is making things worst.
I just don't get it, there is no way that Kosovo is going to be under the Serbian rule, Serbia has lost Kosovo on 1999 when capitulation (serbain troups withdrawal) has been signed.
It's time to move ahead foward EU.

I can see that football club Pristina will play in Serbian league next year,if they qualify of course. Maybe Serbian football federation should call them in without qualifications? That will be nice from our side.regards

The rejection of the fourth (future fifth, sixth, etc.)is a logical counteraction to any attempt to violate the international law by policy of "diktat" and annexation of territories of sovereign states. It is high time the EU should separate its policy in the Western Balkans from those who are still fostering an idea to be "the world policemean and a sole dictator".

Kate,

i hate quoting people but as Veto Surroi said:

"you have a very distorted view of what land is"

"land is of the people who live in it"

@ Nick - Applying that logic, I presume you would be happy to see northern Kosovo remain as part of Serbia? What is good for the Albanians must be good for the Serbs?

The Kosovo status settlement process goes at projected pace. What is important is that UN Security Council is discussing the independence of Kosova. The unilateral declaration of independence of course in cooperation with Kosovo allies USA & EU would be the last option, so that vast majority of states in the world will recognize Independence, including all western democracies. Our allies have offered a carrot to Russia in order to prevent their veto when the next draft resolution would be submitted. I agree, many of you may see it as a Russian and Serbian triumph, but this is just a small battle they are being allowed to win, in order to exhaust all their claims and after some times present the Ahtisaari's plan as the only viable solution. Serbia and its leaders proved they are suffering from inability to understand reality. The reality is that Kosovo is the home of Kosvars and they will decide its fate.

Lets not forget the obvious, you can live somewhere without owning the freehold rights. This is exactly the situation in Kosovo. Serbia is the freehold owner of Kosovo.

Serbia is offering full autonomy to the inhabitants of Kosovo, there is no suggestion that Serbia wants to rule the population of Kosovo. I don't understand what the resistance among the Albanians/US is to this very just solution. Whilst I can understand that there is little trust or respect between the communities I do not see that as problem just an excuse.

Eagle,
something that will never be will never be, no matter how many times it is presented.

Srba,
good suggestion and I hope that it is made possible.

Victor K,
I am quite certain without giving out too much info but the EU are definitly working on a 'European' solution - needles to say Russia is involved as a European state.

Nick,
does that mean that I as a Brit of Serbian ethnicity can lay claim to what is the Queens sovereign land and create an illegal serbian entity in the UK???

I don't think your quote stands much in crediblity with regards international law and UN resolutions!

I and all constructive citizens of the UK understand the concept of integration and conforming to the law of the land. It would seem that some again in the UK don't wish to live in the UK in peace and without drawing any similarity such quotes that you put forth illuminate the radical view that is contraty to integration and conforming to the state your in. In any other state this quote would be seen as inciting illegal activity and maybe that is the root of the issue regarding Serbia's southern province that the UK is starting to comprehend unfortunetly.

Prishtina,
"The Kosovo status settlement process goes at projected pace"

- are you saying you have a time machine? Are you able to turn back the clock back to Dec. 2006 - the so called deadline?? Or what about the discredited deadline June 2006 of Kosumi's!!!

Someone asked me how many of the people in Kosovo are from Albania. I don't know the answer - but it is an interesting question given that Bush announced his view on independence in Albania. He was effectively acknowledging the acceptance of a Greater Albanian Nation. Politically the message that gave is something that stops this being a 'special case' and makes it an extremely worrying precedent.

Any country with a population outside of its own borders would be able to make a 'Kosovo' special case argument.

It would make more sense if the international community had put its efforts behind building good will between the negotiators on both sides.

The international diplomats are 'standing firm' and trying to 'portray a unified face'. However, they are failing in their aims and are pushing to an unacceptable and untenable position. They would be wiser to give space and support for a solution that is acceptable both sides and to put their strength into providing a combination of impetus and guarantees.

Provided the negotiations are with a democratic and forward looking Serbia then it is the furture that matters and not the past. The rule of law must be applied - both in arresting war criminals and in repecting territorial integrity.

Kosovo is not a special case - and never was.

If Kosovo-Metohija will be independent, why should't other regions be getting independece as well? Why is the Albanians lust for freedom so special? Lets start with Kurdistan, according to US viev of the matter they to have been subjected to violence under a previous president. Give them independence as well from both Iraq and Turkey. I can't seen hos this NOT should set a prejudice, is it only Albanians "fight" for freedom that is important in the world? Why not recognize Taiwan also against Chinas will? (no chance in this deacde..)

Nick - That means that part of Southern France and Spain are actually British, does it not?! There are many more examples where the land is not owned by the people who populate it.

Wars have been fought through the centuries to establish boundaries. The Kosovo War was fought and settled in 1999, when the UN and Serbia agree that Kosovo would remain part of Serbia.

So how can you now claim otherwise? What has happened since? A plan has been drawn up and rejected by Russia (and probably China) which would have led to independence. That then has to be changed until it is acceptable to all involved, especially Serbia of which Kosovo is still legally part.

Only then can the issue be settled. It is in Serbia's interest to give as much as possible and retain a good relationship with its citizens in Kosovo. There would be a transitional stage under international supervision ensuring all rights are protected.

What would be so bad about this?

Jim,

As a last resort yes. Under specific terms and conditions which would have to be negociated betwen Prishtina and Belgrade with adequate international mediation and under a certain time limit.

If it comes to partition, my interest would be to ensure that Kosova retains sufficient resources to ensure its economical viability.

But partition has not been ofered as an option by either side, and so long as it remains so i would not elaborate on what i believe the other terms and conditions should be.

It's all very well to discuss the future of Kosovo theoretically and to cheer for Bush or Putin. This only proves that we are pawns in a Great Power game. You have aunty Putin and we have uncle Bush. Lucky us! We have been blessed! But I am curious to know what you guys will do if (and it is a very, very, very big and seemingly impossible IF) Kosovo does not get its independence? Do the Serbs really believe that they can control Kosovo again? What will Serbia do then? Ethnically cleanse Kosovo again? I doubt it. The end result will be a sort of Palestine situation which will destroy Serbia as much as Kosovo. 15 or 20 or 50 years from now we will still be speaking about the Kosovo problem and maybe Princip and Katy or their children will one day find themselves in a trench somewhere in Kosovo and reflect on that remarkable day when Kosovo did NOT become independent.

Here we go again with folly,molly holly etc...
Russia does not care fro serbs or Albanians, they want something from US nad are using Kosova as play ground. In the end they will give in and serbia will be alone once again, evn though they are alone now but just don't seem to see it.

Another sad day for people of Kosova especially for the Serbian community. Russia is not supporting any resolution but at the same time is not proposing anything new. Mybe thay agree with the resolution but ...
No resolution , no suffering for Russia nor USA, but for Kosova(already used to) and Serbia.
Serbian community( to one of them I just spoken earlier) feel really tired of failed Belgrade politics. K-Serbs have all heard similar stories earlier from Serbian and Russian politicians and look what happened to them. They have heard from likes of Princip UK, Kate, Jim, Jovan and many more who live 1000s miles away and still feel they to propose/argue a solution that does not suit the K-Serbian interest. I believe that K-Serbs are not ready to listen to them any more since they have not presented their interest. K-Serbs feel betrayed by the Serbian politicians. B92 site on Serbian language can prove my point.

Here it is one posting from B92 site on Serbian language:
Znate li onu izreku: Ko ga Rusija brani, a Grcka hrani taj je nadrljao.
Ne razumem zasto se Rusija bavi nama, nek se skine sa nas i neka vidi sta ce sa sobom prvo.
Rusijo bezi bre , bavi se sobom, poruka iz Srbije!!!!


Kosovo is steadily but surely building the economy slowly. Of course there are problems like everywhere in the region but things are improving. We have D. licences, ID cards, Travel Documents, Central bank, car plates and many other things accepted by the Int. community. However comes to Kosova our custom will greet you, our KPS police will protect you.
Come and see for yourself

"all western democracies to recognise independance"

Are you dreaming my good man?
Spain probably will not unless it gets horse wipped into doing it by the EU along with other countries.
Think for one second what independance would look like if the US had no political incentives to give you independance? All of the countries which the US de facto tells what to do (poland, the czechs, Britian etc) will certainly recognise independance but i ask you if they were not under sucha whip why would they? Serbia together with Russia are far greater allies then a little Kosovo and Albania, these countries dont even have the right to make a fair decision for themselves.
Dont be naive, Prishtina the Russians dont need carrots and as their influence grows America's will wither and some sort of power balance will finally be established. Albanian independance and creation of Albania part 2 as if Albania part 1 was some sort of great success that made money at the movies and needed to be recreated (HA!)is a joke and as soon as "fairness" returns to the world Albanians will suffer because their stratagy from day 1 has been make us seem like the victims, play on the already demonized position of Serbs.

Those three tactics which you are employing are not "fair" and i wish anyone luck who wishes to employ them without redemption.

P.S Prishtina is a Serbian word and when Pro-Kosova people use it you contradict yourself before you even begin speaking. Stop trying to steal someones country based on Birth rate and demographics, numbers dont make countries - History, law, culture, politics and peace make countries.

“The new draft explicitly states that Kosovo is a special case due to “its history,” and that the Security Council will not be able to treat it as a precedent”.
The big three have spoken and everyone must fall in line. It is this kind of ridiculous rhetoric that freethinking people find offensive. If they want me to believe this then, I will also believe that the US is winning the war in Iraq.
Just because you say it is so, does not make it so.

Kate,

Autonomy can be revoked, and it has been revoked in the past. Obtaining an independent status would prevent Serbia from taking such measures.

In 1989 we were used as pawns and out autonomy as a tool for Milosevic's bloddy nationalistic agenda.

Who is to say Serbia wont elect such a leader again? and who is to say that leader wont do the same thing again?

The strongest political party in Serbia are the radicals who dont even want us living in the Balkans and let alone Kosova. Even now your Prime Minister sounds more and more like Milosevic.

There is plenty wrong with autonomy.

Reading these comments, It is so obvious to see how many readers are blind by the pure rhetoric of Serbian politicians and to some extent serbian media. Many people tend to forget that the time of USSR and Russia in this case has long GONE and many serbs will be doomed if they think that Russia or even China is going to help rescue them. All they are after is their sphere of influence. If they truly believe that Russia or China will help them than they should probably consider joining Russia, Belorussia, China and Cuba instead of EU, NATO and other liberal democracies.

Ahmet
You are the ones that are alone. Its only a matter of time b4 u see it. Ceku said it himself... he wished his allies were as direct and solid as Russia was with Serbia. I bet you anything that Kosovo will remain as part of Serbia. If only you accepted autonomy and we all went into the EU it would be much, much easier. But thats not what you are after is it? You want to make a greater albania. Well thats like saying I want a Greater Serbia of which RS, North Kosovo, and Krajina are part of. So we will trade you. Sound good?

I am still undecided to whom the title of epic myth master belongs to: the three candidates I have in mind are Princip, Kate and Kostunica. After yesterdays “holy” rhetoric by Kostunica odds are on his side but I don’t underestimate Princip and his famous alphabetical Ahtisaari(A, B , C,D,.. plan now turned into algebra Ahtisaari +++ . But Kate is always there with her disordered view of current events and the past, ex. Albanians from Kosova went camping in Macedonia and Albania. They just like living in refugee shelters.

Nick
Here is how autonomy would not be negative...

-EU entrance and guarantee that for that as long as Serbia is a memebers of EU they will monitor ur AUTONOMY and guarantee it. Complete protection from anything devious or underminding from Belgrade.

That takes care of your official complaint.

I see that some here are trying to earn their pay. Spreading lies, rumors and misconception for a short time, while they still can and earn some more, since very soon all will come to an end and there will be no room for deceit. Serbia will be free of Kosovo, and its politicians will have nothing to use anymore to lie and mislead its people. The most useful propaganda tool, used so much by the Serb politicians in the past and today will be gone. I wonder who will get blamed for all mismanagement and government corruption in Serbia?

The euphoric posts regarding Russia's victory over West indicated the state of being high! Just a sober reminder, a day ago, Cristina Gallach, spokeswoman for Javier Solana indicated that Brussels is getting impatient as well with the Russians, and if this Russian stance continues EU will take its own decision. On the same note Daniel Fried in an interview with Stern said that if Russians still block the solution for Kosovo, the next steps are well understood. You can all talk about the might of Russia and its riches, but let me remind you that politically EU will never allow itself to be under the influence of Russia. No matter how much EU disagrees with Washington in the end of the day it prefers Washington over Russia. And if you guys think that Russia is a match to EU and USA politically, economically and militarily then you all have a serious problem.

And when EU stalls politically there is always Uncle Sam that will push the issues. I wont be surprised to see, if Bush does not manage to persuade Putin not to block the resolution (eve though Russians claimed the last one is unacceptable to them already), Washington signal Prishtina to move ahead and declare the independence of Kosovo followed by recognitions from Washington and the entire EU block and all other countries of the world that support this outcome.

In the end you all must ask yourself one question and that is:

- How can you expect the EU, NATO and US to back down from Russia when they already control Kosovo. They pour money there. They have their military there. What you think and hope that is going to happen is impossible, it will never happen under today circumstances.

These organizations have already bypassed Russia when they bombed Serbia, what makes you think they wont do it again? They knew very well then as they do now that the path onto which they put Kosovo back then is independence. Kosovo is slowly but surely moving along this path. It is building its war destroyed economy and is setting the foundation of democratic nation reflecting the Western values of democracy (no need to look any further that the way the anniversary of Battle of Kosovo was handled by Kosovo Police).

Serbia ... wake up! Time is of essence ... You need to chose EU (peace, prosperity and development) or Russia (wars, isolation and poverty). The choice is yours!

Cvele,

So what you are basicly saying is that you are willing to sacrifice the "holy land of Kosovo, all the monasteries and all your holy battle grounds" for more land in Bosnia and Croatia, land which bears no religious or historic meaning to you?

This proves that you arent really interested in 'the holy land of Kosovo' what you are interested in is territory & land.

Indonesia's plan is dumb because Kosovo was part of Serbia under Yugoslavia and Indonesia's plan would automatically make VOjvodina independent too. If Kosovo was not a part of Serbia under Yugoslavia Vojvodina wasn't either and then they need independence as well as they had the same status.

nothing new in here actually.

the Serbs writing about law and justice, and the Albanians presenting the 999th repetition of their desperate wishful thinking ( of course combined with doubtful accusations )

and a short sentence to Nick:
the offered broad autonomy would be supervised by the international community. that should be enough for Albanians , if they do not trust the Serbs.

no matter how you turn it, from which side you present it... your arguments are quite weak.

I need a history lesson here.

France, of the UN Security Council, is backing a UN Resolution that intends to dismember Serbia and the Resolution mentions the province of Kosovo and "it's history". What I need the history lesson about is how France got to be on the UN Security Council in the first place?! If surrendering to Nazi Germany during WW2 and collaborating for a number of years and laying back while other countries land at the beachheads to liberate them from the occupiers qualifies a country as a Security Council member, then that Security Council needs to be expanded to take in similar countries which also lacked a spine during WW2, and for them - 6 decades on - to try and dictate a Resolution to peoples who were singled out by the Nazis for 'special attention'.

Mr.Laki you need to ask the NATO leaders about the exodus of people from Kosovo. By your logic the people in the twin towers would have remained inside if they knew that someone was going to crash the planes into the buildings? Albanian mothers and fathers like my old peasant mother during WWII knew that remaining in Kosovo or a place that will be a war zone is not safe. Mr. Laki you also need to ask Ceku and Tachi about their orders for the people to flee. If the Krasnicki family was alive you could ask them why they did not flee when the KLA came under NATO protection and killed them all. They should have known of the danger because the same thing has happened to other Albanians who opposed the KLA. They should have fled to Serbia like thousands of Serbs, Roma, Albanians and Muslim Serbs did during the NATO attack on a sovereign nation.

Mr. Walter the difference between your statment and mine is that I lived in Prishtina and every single member of my family was kicked out of their house by orders of serbian paramilitary/soldiers/police. They would come to your neighborhood/house and give you 5 min to leave your house. While there they will also steal/grab anything worth it from my family members, and in their cases their life savings and foreign cars.

To sum it up in Martin Luther King, Jr. words "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

Russia, cannot be bought out and fact remains that Putin illuminated with his reminder regarding consequences following Munich - the west needs to realise Russia was stating think but we will never let this pass in the UN and if you try to do things illegally and provide the green light to the consequences then you need to be prepared.

Russian interest is now served completly by blocking such folly - new talks will begin in July under the auspices of the Chinese UN SC Presidency.

Maybe the compromise will come from the tatters of Ahtisaari plan but it is clear that it will never be adopted as a resolution - without which there is nothing other then at best Status quo - Not even the old UK band had so many come backs but then one of their songs was Again & Again!!!

Laki, residents of Kosovo started heading for the borders en masse in 1999 when the first NATO bombs started falling and killing. Is this must be the ethnic cleansing that Albanians keep referring to?

Russia will not relent on its stance. Kosovo will set a precedent no matter what the U.S. or the EU have to say about it.

If Russia gives the West it's way on Kosovo, then it will be forced to recognize the demands of the Russian minorities in Georgia and Moldova for independence, and if it does that there will be a war on its doorstep that it will be sucked into. Russia would also be hard pressed to deny Chechnya independence.

Russia isn't angling for a deal with the West on Kosovo. Russia's stance is based on its own internal concerns.

The bottom line is this. The EU won't recognize Kosovo independence without a new UN resolution, and there won't be a new UN resolution unless Russia supports it.

The Kosovo-Albanians have two choices: negotiate with Belgrade or fight another war. I hope they choose negotiations.

This isn't 1999, and if the Albanians choose war again they should realize that the United States won't be able to rescue them.

The U.S. military is bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan, and does not have the man power or the equipment to fight an another war in Kosovo.

We couldn't even rescue our own people from Hurricane Katrina because our national guard and reserve troops were off in Iraq.

There was barely enough political will to fight the first Kosovo war. Congress darn near voted to cut-off funding for it. As an American I can tell you there is no political will to fight another round in Kosovo.

George Bush may have made promises when he was in Tirana, but that doesn't mean that he has any intention or ability to keep them.

Bush is a lame duck president with a 30% approval rating. If he's the man that you Albanians have your hopes pinned on then you'll be sorely disappointed. Bush dosen't keep the promises that he makes to his own people, what makes you think he'll come through for you?

I woud like to ask every one on this debate or fourum and specialy albanians amd serbs what do you think is the best for kosovars and serbs to diside what to do about kosovo.

Why are there so many Kosova Albanians living in Kosova here and very few (if any) Serbs living in Serbia that comment here?

Walter, your posts are incoherent and very disturbing. I am not sure what are you gaining by making these kind of irrational claims but it is very disturbing to read comments like your last one. If your intention is to mislead Serb public and others that read this site, you will not succeed in it, I would have hoped that you and all the rest that spread lies and make up things know better by now.

I wonder why B92 is even allowing these comments to get posted. These comments surely make B92 appear as being e website that tenders to the conspiracy theorists and not a serious reporting news organization.

I am not sure how one can come to such a tantalizing conclusion that would suggest NATO created nearly 1 million refugees. Mr. Walter do you ever, ever ask yourself why these 1 million refugees returned back together with NATO, if NATO made them refugees?

Mr. Walter how can you explain images and videos of Serb army, police and paramilitary units loading these people in busses, trains and what not and sending them towards border with Macedonia and Albania. Do you ever wonder why Serb army, police and paramilitary units did not chase KLA, when everyone in the world know what kind of a rag tag structure this was; don’t you think that it would have been much better to have chased KLA? I am sure there is a perfect international "legal" way that you can come up and explain the killings, rapes and expulsions done by then Serb government, as it appears that only in your twisted mind such things are legal, and when they are not legal they are all part of some ploy and propaganda, taken from the Nazis policies, and directed against Serbia and its people.

Dude, the only Nazi thing in all this is the fact that one government, in this case Serbia's government, I stress here at that time, systematically and orchestrated by the highest governmental institutions, where even the Academy of Arts and Science took part actively in devising plans for changing the makeup of former Yugoslavia, took a campaign of mass killing, rapes, and expulsion all over former Yugoslavia, never seen before in Europe since the WWII (also, it appear that even in today's Serb government there are people who are still nostalgic about those times and who fault Milosevic only for the fact that he failed in his policies and not that those were wrong policies).

Please, don’t blame others for the failures and mistakes of your country's leaders. You are not helping anyone by denying the fault of Serbia and its government in what took place in Yugoslavia and certainly you are not helping your people in the region to reconcile with their neighbors.

Carrot? What carrot could the EU or the US possibly offer? Honestly, if you go this farm then at best you should tell us what this carrot is? Come on.

USA lifting Jackson-Vanick? Something they keep purely as a discriminatory measure against Russia and deliberatly lifted from the Ukraine a couple of weeks before elections to help get the 'right people' elected (i.e. a
blatent attempt to manipulate democratic elections). Or maybe allowing Russia to join the WTO? They let China joinm but (the US in particular) are deliberately dragging out the process because they think it will give them leverage over the Russians. Cancelling missile defence in the Czech Republic and Poland? Would Bush trade loosing face with his best pals in eastern europe for kosovo independence? Why would Russia accept this considering that the EU is already seriously divided on the issue.

Honestly, talk about having one's head in the clouds. t's just wishful thinking.

James, you clearly have no idea how the EU works. Unfortunately I do. The more they talk about being unified, the less that they actually are. National politics always come first. The smaller states get bullied into moderating their positions (slovakia for example) or not 'opposing' the policy. The Spanish and the Portugese are told to button their lip for the sake of 'european unity' etc. etc.

The EC (if we are speaking of a leagally recognized entity) is not 'democratic' by a long shot. Most EU citizens look to their own parliaments, and common foreign and security policy (now that's a real joke) is directed via the Council of Ministers (unelected). They're not going to allow the peasant EU citizen to have a say.

The whole constitution issue is turning into a constipation issue. No one expects any miracles, but they are praying for them...

Walter,

excellent comments,

Brian Murray - 100% spot on Russia is not going to let this through because it is in their interest too not because of a "slavic" association!

The US political 'elite' sadly have lost the plot - lets hope they realise what is happening before it is really too late for the sake of all in the world. The US citizens are only too aware as we know from Bush's low ratings - the same can be seen in the UK where Bliar is the accepted spelling for thankfully the ex-PM - the greatest warmonger the UK ever had!!!

JAMES I am not sure why I am even responding to you because it is obvious you have not read anything of world history or about how Yugoslavia was destabilized. It is pointless for me to direct you to literature since you parrot the line. Talk about incoherence and irrational claims “dude”. My comments to you are incoherent and irrational because you don’t understand them. “Little learning is a dangerous thing” my friend because it exposes your limitations to understand how you are manipulated.

You want B92 to censor me, oh yes B92 has censored my comments, not because they were false but because they in their wisdom or lack of it felt that Victor or some other poster is sincere in their comments. Why did the refugees return James? Maybe you should ask why all the refugees did not return? Refugees return when threat of bombs falling on their head is over. Serbs, Jews, Roma, and Serb Muslims did not return nor did Albanians who opposed the KLA because they did not want to wind up like the Krasnicki family. Many of those who did not go back to Kosovo are my neighbors in Canada now.

How does one come to a conclusion that NATO created 1 million refugees? By example my friend! Look at any theatre of conflict and you will see a flood of refugees fleeing a war zone. In the case of Kosovo there was an added element, KLA was telling you to leave. Why do you think, or do you think, about the 4 million Iraqi refugees in the neighboring nations. It is very simple James all you need to do is read and ask questions.

I saw those images that you write about of trains and people leaving. I never saw a single door locked or a single police officer push or maltreat those who chose to leave on the train. My understanding is that they could have stayed if they wanted to but many did not dare because the KLA told them to leave. This exodus was for American eyes so that Tachi and Ceku would get their air force. It worked?

Point me to your evidence James that this was a government plan? The Hague Tribunal had no such evidence so they had to manufacture Bosnia and Croatia. My country’s leaders are in Canada and I blame them for hypocrisy because they work tirelessly to preserve unity of Canada while they support dismemberment of Serbia.

I fault Milosevic for one thing and that is .his inability to preserve Yugoslavia and I fault people like you for its demise. Reconciliation James is a two way street but I am afraid that this will not happen since we have close minded people like you. People like you James rarely question the statements made by figures in authority. As a consequence you are generally ignorant of the views of people like me who oppose your position. Tolerance of divergent views is a basic premise of a democratic society as is free speech but you wouldn’t know anything about that would you

I actually hope Russia vetoes the Resolution.
All Albanians need is USA, England, France and Italy to go along the US. Switzerland Macedonia and Albania will follow them. Most likely Italy will become the largest trading partner. I think life would be great even if these were the only country in the world recognizing it. Certainly beats living under Serbia.
And with the Russian veto the recognition of independence by the countries above is going to be very fast. I don't think any Albanians care whether Spain, Russia, China, Belarus, Indonesia, South Africa etc. recognizes their independence. It'd be good if they did but in case plan B goes into effect those countries that won't recognize it have no influence in the standard of living in Kosovo whatsoever.
Also to comment on someone who threatened Albanians with war after US, UK, France Italy etc. recognize independence; well if and when Serbia starts that it will turn into another Iran, or Cuba. States who have the backing of Russia. If Serbia is looking forward to that prospect then they're welcome to do whatever they want to reach that goal. Hopefully Castro won't be dead by the time Kostunica decides to meet him.

Nick,
Thx for agreeing that its Serbian historic and rightful land.

Stevo,
Only reason France is a VETO holding member on the UNSC is because of their agreement with the allies at the end of the WW2. Only axis nation on the UNSC is Germany and not even Japan got that option. They needed those 3 countries (england, france, and germany) because the rest r unreliable allies such as Spain, Poland, Yugoslavia, Austria, etc etc... which would agree with opt for Russian view or their own. In any case simply put too many countries would be harder to control and no votes would ever go the "right" way if there were more countries on the UNSC.

Bob,

for your information, I did some research a while back and after the war in 1999 the Kosovo Albanian population nearly doubled in Kosovo. In the year 2000 there were 1,584,000 people. 100,000 Serbs were froced out. In 2007 the population rocketed to 2.6 million and the world knows that the increase were not because of the Serbs. So you can do the math... Clearly the situation was taken advantage of and of course the population is going to be 90% Albanians now... But the media here in the US will not show you statitics ... I also have to scoff at most of the comments made by Albanians here... They cry victim too much... unlike most of the world, I have seen both sides of the stories and they are equally as guilty as the Serbs...

As far as Walter goes, while I am far more moderate in my views then he is, I greatly admire his power of speech and I appreciate his contribution. Some of the things he says are just amazing.
"I woud like to ask every one on this debate or fourum and specialy albanians amd serbs what do you think is the best for kosovars and serbs to diside what to do about kosovo. (dritoniusa, Friday, 29 June, 2007, 20:49)"
Partition seems to be a real compromise to me. I'd give Trepca (with connecting land bridge) and Presevo in exchange for some of our important cultural sites (with a connecting land bridge).
That gives both our people protection from abuse. It gives more Albanians more freedom and economic vitality and gives Serbs something we can call "Kosovo".
I think that deals with all the major issues I think. The Devil is in the details, but I think we have room to work something out that benefits us both. Seems to me that partition while not ideal for either side, at least is acceptable to most.
Either that, or let both Kosovo and Serbia into the EU right now! Then Kosovo wouldn't really be another country and the borders would be moot. The EU needs to get serious about the region. They offer hope for a better tomorrow for both our peoples.

"Why are there so many Kosova Albanians living in Kosova here and very few (if any) Serbs living in Serbia that comment here? (Nick, Friday, 29 June, 2007, 20:54)"
The Serbs from Serbia post on the Serbia language forum for the most part. We Western Serbs lost our language generations ago. We write much better in English, and well to be honest, I rather enjoy talking to the Albanians here. Its been a great learning experience for me. Especially since many of you live there. There are Serbs that post here, even at least one that lives in Kosovo, that guy Boris, he's very moderate. Even if I could write well in Serbian, I think I'd still prefer to talk to Albanians. Knowledge is power.

"…The euphoric posts regarding Russia's victory over West indicated the state of being high! Just a sober reminder, a day ago, Cristina Gallach, spokeswoman for Javier Solana indicated that Brussels is getting impatient as well with the Russians, and if this Russian stance continues EU will take its own decision. On the same note Daniel Fried in an interview with Stern said that if Russians still block the solution for Kosovo, the next steps are well understood…."

Or maybe Miss Gallach and Mr. Stern are guided more by wishful thinking then reality.
Some other western journalist and diplomats are looking at the situation rather differently:

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=17792
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2834af4e-15d0-11dc-a7ce-000b5df10621.html
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=011b5cf0-1867-4f29-bb27-772e111a2635&k=79220

"…And if you guys think that Russia is a match to EU and USA politically, economically and militarily then you all have a serious problem…"

Oh, and I thought that USA and EU stands for human rights, democracy and rule of the law, and not for the power politics, silly me.

But, if it is a mater of power, Russia doesn't have to be exactly a match to the West. We see that even now Russia can in certain situation Russia protect it's interest against the will of the West. Who knows what future brings. World is changing. Historically, when ever was a hegemonic power, weaker states organized coalitions against hegemon. That could happen in our time too.

"…- How can you expect the EU, NATO and US to back down from Russia when they already control Kosovo. They pour money there. They have their military there. What you think and hope that is going to happen is impossible, it will never happen under today circumstances…"

Circumstances sometimes change very quickly. They are all ready very different today then in the nineties.

"…Dude, the only Nazi thing in all this is the fact that one government, in this case Serbia's government, I stress here at that time, systematically and orchestrated by the highest governmental institutions, where even the Academy of Arts and Science took part actively in devising plans for changing the makeup of former Yugoslavia, took a campaign of mass killing, rapes, and expulsion all over former Yugoslavia, never seen before in Europe since the WWII
Please, don’t blame others for the failures and mistakes of your country's leaders. You are not helping anyone by denying the fault of Serbia and its government in what took place in Yugoslavia and certainly you are not helping your people in the region to reconcile with their neighbors…."

During every war there is a certain kind of fog that prevents objective vision. After war stops, fabrications, exaggerations, propaganda, delusions beginning to settle and clearer picture emerges.

We should judge on basis of facts. Facts are that Serbia has highest number of refuges in Europe, that Serbia is most multi cultural country of ex - YU and that all other new states are almost completely ethnically "pure", because they expelled their minorities. (Only in Serbia numbers of minorities didn't change significantly before, during and after the war). There are plenty of material evidence of racist intentions and policies of Croatian government and some evidence against Bosnian Muslim government. On the other side material base for claims against Serbian government is extremely thin. James, you should reconsider your views.

Stevo,

Well said about France! Why are they on the Security council? The only reason I can think of is because they have Nukes! But then so does India and their army is 20 times bigger, so I really don't get it.

Cvele,

Where did i agree that its Serb historcial and rightful land?

Please dont post such ridiculous interpretations of my comments.

There was someone that stated that the population of Kosovo/a went from 1.9 million to 2.6 million, hinting that these "new" Albanians migrated to Kosovo/a from Albania Macedonia etc. Now in this studies of yours can you please post by how much the population of these countries decreased. Caution though you might be bitterly surprised.

As for the separation option, then I would like some of the Serbs here that are in favor of it to answer this question. If say some part of Kosovo/a goes to Serbia, what would they think if other part of Kosovo/a decided to join Albania?
I am asking this question because when the negotiations started there were two basic principles.
1. No separation
2. No joining with any other countries.
Now I am thinking since by the option of Separation that some Serbs here favor parts of Kosovo/a in the north will be split and join Serbia. Since the northern part according to this logic will be allowed to break join Serbia, then accordingly the other part of Kosovo/a can choose to join Albania. Since the splitting principle will be broken then the other principle is effectively broken too.

Why are there so many Kosova Albanians living in Kosova here and very few (if any) Serbs living in Serbia that comment here?
(Nick, Friday, 29 June, 2007, 20:54)

It's obvious - cause all the Serbs were kicked out by the albanians - it's not rocket science, my friend, it's history.

Well your statement doesn't make sense. If we go by what Serbs say, Albanians became a majority in Kosovo/a only lately. Some say they became a majority after 1999. Now on one side you have very organized state with the latest Russian military technology at its disposal, Serbia. On the other side you have the minority Albanians of Kosovo/a. How in the hell could such an ill armed minority expel a majority armed to their teeth with the latest military technology?
I guess you're neither a rocket scientist nor a historian.

the GOOD MEN will prevail. RUSSIA is firm on its decision and CHINA is also apprehensive of the possible ourcome of Kosovo independence due to TAIWAN, TIBET and HONG KONG. also bush doesn't have much needed support from his own party anymore. it is clear that the tide has changed. GONE WITH THE WIND.

seems the russians are doing well against the US and EU in the UNSC diplomatic games and in the tennis world as well. serbians and russians are dominating the wimbledon thses days.

Folly has ended! Ahtisaari plan in it's entirity is finished - only a compromise possibly based on elements of Ahtisaari but strongly obligated by UN resolution 1244 and the helsinki act regarding Serbia's territorial integrity.

2nd of July will be a great day for Serbia when Outin will have put Bush right on international law, China will hold the the UN SC presidency and Portugal the EU. Even the UK Parliment is starting to question & look at all other alternatives - read the full discussion on 'kosovo' : Commons debates
(27 Jun 2007)
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2007-06-27a.439.0&s=kosovo

If you read the full debate you see the underlying message that UK government (till now a spearhead for this failed folly) is now starting to ponder and question and develop a sperate strategy from the US - the ILLEGALITY that Bush would persue would not be acceptable to the UK Parliment - I am certain the US have been informed.

"The new draft explicitly states that Kosovo is a special case due to “its history,” and that the Security Council will not be able to treat it as a precedent."

Subtext: "Just let us shaft this one country to get us out of this hole we've dug, and we promise never to do this again..."

Desperation time. Just move on to a proper draft allowing for the fulfilment of 1244 and the support of open talks in a bid to find a genuine solution.
Unless the UN wrenches Kosovo from Serbia by force (diplomatic not military) there is no way for the UNSC to remove the province and give independence.

I wouldn't put is past the current US administration to keep on trying anyway. The longer this goes on the worse it will be when the news is delivered to the Kosovo Albanian people.

Everyone is going to have to work together on this. It's outrageous that an ethnic group is supported in a bid for separatism by the US. Give away your own land - not another country's.

How many more times Moscow is going to b e asked before this resolution goes into effect?
I think is time to say just as President Bush said; " Enoguh is enough, Kosovo is independet", there is no need to waist time with Russian politic which is making things worst.
I just don't get it, there is no way that Kosovo is going to be under the Serbian rule, Serbia has lost Kosovo on 1999 when capitulation (serbain troups withdrawal) has been signed.
It's time to move ahead foward EU.

I can see that football club Pristina will play in Serbian league next year,if they qualify of course. Maybe Serbian football federation should call them in without qualifications? That will be nice from our side.regards

The rejection of the fourth (future fifth, sixth, etc.)is a logical counteraction to any attempt to violate the international law by policy of "diktat" and annexation of territories of sovereign states. It is high time the EU should separate its policy in the Western Balkans from those who are still fostering an idea to be "the world policemean and a sole dictator".

Kate,

i hate quoting people but as Veto Surroi said:

"you have a very distorted view of what land is"

"land is of the people who live in it"

@ Nick - Applying that logic, I presume you would be happy to see northern Kosovo remain as part of Serbia? What is good for the Albanians must be good for the Serbs?

The Kosovo status settlement process goes at projected pace. What is important is that UN Security Council is discussing the independence of Kosova. The unilateral declaration of independence of course in cooperation with Kosovo allies USA & EU would be the last option, so that vast majority of states in the world will recognize Independence, including all western democracies. Our allies have offered a carrot to Russia in order to prevent their veto when the next draft resolution would be submitted. I agree, many of you may see it as a Russian and Serbian triumph, but this is just a small battle they are being allowed to win, in order to exhaust all their claims and after some times present the Ahtisaari's plan as the only viable solution. Serbia and its leaders proved they are suffering from inability to understand reality. The reality is that Kosovo is the home of Kosvars and they will decide its fate.

Lets not forget the obvious, you can live somewhere without owning the freehold rights. This is exactly the situation in Kosovo. Serbia is the freehold owner of Kosovo.

Serbia is offering full autonomy to the inhabitants of Kosovo, there is no suggestion that Serbia wants to rule the population of Kosovo. I don't understand what the resistance among the Albanians/US is to this very just solution. Whilst I can understand that there is little trust or respect between the communities I do not see that as problem just an excuse.

Eagle,
something that will never be will never be, no matter how many times it is presented.

Srba,
good suggestion and I hope that it is made possible.

Victor K,
I am quite certain without giving out too much info but the EU are definitly working on a 'European' solution - needles to say Russia is involved as a European state.

Nick,
does that mean that I as a Brit of Serbian ethnicity can lay claim to what is the Queens sovereign land and create an illegal serbian entity in the UK???

I don't think your quote stands much in crediblity with regards international law and UN resolutions!

I and all constructive citizens of the UK understand the concept of integration and conforming to the law of the land. It would seem that some again in the UK don't wish to live in the UK in peace and without drawing any similarity such quotes that you put forth illuminate the radical view that is contraty to integration and conforming to the state your in. In any other state this quote would be seen as inciting illegal activity and maybe that is the root of the issue regarding Serbia's southern province that the UK is starting to comprehend unfortunetly.

Prishtina,
"The Kosovo status settlement process goes at projected pace"

- are you saying you have a time machine? Are you able to turn back the clock back to Dec. 2006 - the so called deadline?? Or what about the discredited deadline June 2006 of Kosumi's!!!

Someone asked me how many of the people in Kosovo are from Albania. I don't know the answer - but it is an interesting question given that Bush announced his view on independence in Albania. He was effectively acknowledging the acceptance of a Greater Albanian Nation. Politically the message that gave is something that stops this being a 'special case' and makes it an extremely worrying precedent.

Any country with a population outside of its own borders would be able to make a 'Kosovo' special case argument.

It would make more sense if the international community had put its efforts behind building good will between the negotiators on both sides.

The international diplomats are 'standing firm' and trying to 'portray a unified face'. However, they are failing in their aims and are pushing to an unacceptable and untenable position. They would be wiser to give space and support for a solution that is acceptable both sides and to put their strength into providing a combination of impetus and guarantees.

Provided the negotiations are with a democratic and forward looking Serbia then it is the furture that matters and not the past. The rule of law must be applied - both in arresting war criminals and in repecting territorial integrity.

Kosovo is not a special case - and never was.

If Kosovo-Metohija will be independent, why should't other regions be getting independece as well? Why is the Albanians lust for freedom so special? Lets start with Kurdistan, according to US viev of the matter they to have been subjected to violence under a previous president. Give them independence as well from both Iraq and Turkey. I can't seen hos this NOT should set a prejudice, is it only Albanians "fight" for freedom that is important in the world? Why not recognize Taiwan also against Chinas will? (no chance in this deacde..)

Nick - That means that part of Southern France and Spain are actually British, does it not?! There are many more examples where the land is not owned by the people who populate it.

Wars have been fought through the centuries to establish boundaries. The Kosovo War was fought and settled in 1999, when the UN and Serbia agree that Kosovo would remain part of Serbia.

So how can you now claim otherwise? What has happened since? A plan has been drawn up and rejected by Russia (and probably China) which would have led to independence. That then has to be changed until it is acceptable to all involved, especially Serbia of which Kosovo is still legally part.

Only then can the issue be settled. It is in Serbia's interest to give as much as possible and retain a good relationship with its citizens in Kosovo. There would be a transitional stage under international supervision ensuring all rights are protected.

What would be so bad about this?

Jim,

As a last resort yes. Under specific terms and conditions which would have to be negociated betwen Prishtina and Belgrade with adequate international mediation and under a certain time limit.

If it comes to partition, my interest would be to ensure that Kosova retains sufficient resources to ensure its economical viability.

But partition has not been ofered as an option by either side, and so long as it remains so i would not elaborate on what i believe the other terms and conditions should be.

It's all very well to discuss the future of Kosovo theoretically and to cheer for Bush or Putin. This only proves that we are pawns in a Great Power game. You have aunty Putin and we have uncle Bush. Lucky us! We have been blessed! But I am curious to know what you guys will do if (and it is a very, very, very big and seemingly impossible IF) Kosovo does not get its independence? Do the Serbs really believe that they can control Kosovo again? What will Serbia do then? Ethnically cleanse Kosovo again? I doubt it. The end result will be a sort of Palestine situation which will destroy Serbia as much as Kosovo. 15 or 20 or 50 years from now we will still be speaking about the Kosovo problem and maybe Princip and Katy or their children will one day find themselves in a trench somewhere in Kosovo and reflect on that remarkable day when Kosovo did NOT become independent.

Here we go again with folly,molly holly etc...
Russia does not care fro serbs or Albanians, they want something from US nad are using Kosova as play ground. In the end they will give in and serbia will be alone once again, evn though they are alone now but just don't seem to see it.

Another sad day for people of Kosova especially for the Serbian community. Russia is not supporting any resolution but at the same time is not proposing anything new. Mybe thay agree with the resolution but ...
No resolution , no suffering for Russia nor USA, but for Kosova(already used to) and Serbia.
Serbian community( to one of them I just spoken earlier) feel really tired of failed Belgrade politics. K-Serbs have all heard similar stories earlier from Serbian and Russian politicians and look what happened to them. They have heard from likes of Princip UK, Kate, Jim, Jovan and many more who live 1000s miles away and still feel they to propose/argue a solution that does not suit the K-Serbian interest. I believe that K-Serbs are not ready to listen to them any more since they have not presented their interest. K-Serbs feel betrayed by the Serbian politicians. B92 site on Serbian language can prove my point.

Here it is one posting from B92 site on Serbian language:
Znate li onu izreku: Ko ga Rusija brani, a Grcka hrani taj je nadrljao.
Ne razumem zasto se Rusija bavi nama, nek se skine sa nas i neka vidi sta ce sa sobom prvo.
Rusijo bezi bre , bavi se sobom, poruka iz Srbije!!!!


Kosovo is steadily but surely building the economy slowly. Of course there are problems like everywhere in the region but things are improving. We have D. licences, ID cards, Travel Documents, Central bank, car plates and many other things accepted by the Int. community. However comes to Kosova our custom will greet you, our KPS police will protect you.
Come and see for yourself

"all western democracies to recognise independance"

Are you dreaming my good man?
Spain probably will not unless it gets horse wipped into doing it by the EU along with other countries.
Think for one second what independance would look like if the US had no political incentives to give you independance? All of the countries which the US de facto tells what to do (poland, the czechs, Britian etc) will certainly recognise independance but i ask you if they were not under sucha whip why would they? Serbia together with Russia are far greater allies then a little Kosovo and Albania, these countries dont even have the right to make a fair decision for themselves.
Dont be naive, Prishtina the Russians dont need carrots and as their influence grows America's will wither and some sort of power balance will finally be established. Albanian independance and creation of Albania part 2 as if Albania part 1 was some sort of great success that made money at the movies and needed to be recreated (HA!)is a joke and as soon as "fairness" returns to the world Albanians will suffer because their stratagy from day 1 has been make us seem like the victims, play on the already demonized position of Serbs.

Those three tactics which you are employing are not "fair" and i wish anyone luck who wishes to employ them without redemption.

P.S Prishtina is a Serbian word and when Pro-Kosova people use it you contradict yourself before you even begin speaking. Stop trying to steal someones country based on Birth rate and demographics, numbers dont make countries - History, law, culture, politics and peace make countries.

“The new draft explicitly states that Kosovo is a special case due to “its history,” and that the Security Council will not be able to treat it as a precedent”.
The big three have spoken and everyone must fall in line. It is this kind of ridiculous rhetoric that freethinking people find offensive. If they want me to believe this then, I will also believe that the US is winning the war in Iraq.
Just because you say it is so, does not make it so.

Kate,

Autonomy can be revoked, and it has been revoked in the past. Obtaining an independent status would prevent Serbia from taking such measures.

In 1989 we were used as pawns and out autonomy as a tool for Milosevic's bloddy nationalistic agenda.

Who is to say Serbia wont elect such a leader again? and who is to say that leader wont do the same thing again?

The strongest political party in Serbia are the radicals who dont even want us living in the Balkans and let alone Kosova. Even now your Prime Minister sounds more and more like Milosevic.

There is plenty wrong with autonomy.

Reading these comments, It is so obvious to see how many readers are blind by the pure rhetoric of Serbian politicians and to some extent serbian media. Many people tend to forget that the time of USSR and Russia in this case has long GONE and many serbs will be doomed if they think that Russia or even China is going to help rescue them. All they are after is their sphere of influence. If they truly believe that Russia or China will help them than they should probably consider joining Russia, Belorussia, China and Cuba instead of EU, NATO and other liberal democracies.

Ahmet
You are the ones that are alone. Its only a matter of time b4 u see it. Ceku said it himself... he wished his allies were as direct and solid as Russia was with Serbia. I bet you anything that Kosovo will remain as part of Serbia. If only you accepted autonomy and we all went into the EU it would be much, much easier. But thats not what you are after is it? You want to make a greater albania. Well thats like saying I want a Greater Serbia of which RS, North Kosovo, and Krajina are part of. So we will trade you. Sound good?

I am still undecided to whom the title of epic myth master belongs to: the three candidates I have in mind are Princip, Kate and Kostunica. After yesterdays “holy” rhetoric by Kostunica odds are on his side but I don’t underestimate Princip and his famous alphabetical Ahtisaari(A, B , C,D,.. plan now turned into algebra Ahtisaari +++ . But Kate is always there with her disordered view of current events and the past, ex. Albanians from Kosova went camping in Macedonia and Albania. They just like living in refugee shelters.

Nick
Here is how autonomy would not be negative...

-EU entrance and guarantee that for that as long as Serbia is a memebers of EU they will monitor ur AUTONOMY and guarantee it. Complete protection from anything devious or underminding from Belgrade.

That takes care of your official complaint.

I see that some here are trying to earn their pay. Spreading lies, rumors and misconception for a short time, while they still can and earn some more, since very soon all will come to an end and there will be no room for deceit. Serbia will be free of Kosovo, and its politicians will have nothing to use anymore to lie and mislead its people. The most useful propaganda tool, used so much by the Serb politicians in the past and today will be gone. I wonder who will get blamed for all mismanagement and government corruption in Serbia?

The euphoric posts regarding Russia's victory over West indicated the state of being high! Just a sober reminder, a day ago, Cristina Gallach, spokeswoman for Javier Solana indicated that Brussels is getting impatient as well with the Russians, and if this Russian stance continues EU will take its own decision. On the same note Daniel Fried in an interview with Stern said that if Russians still block the solution for Kosovo, the next steps are well understood. You can all talk about the might of Russia and its riches, but let me remind you that politically EU will never allow itself to be under the influence of Russia. No matter how much EU disagrees with Washington in the end of the day it prefers Washington over Russia. And if you guys think that Russia is a match to EU and USA politically, economically and militarily then you all have a serious problem.

And when EU stalls politically there is always Uncle Sam that will push the issues. I wont be surprised to see, if Bush does not manage to persuade Putin not to block the resolution (eve though Russians claimed the last one is unacceptable to them already), Washington signal Prishtina to move ahead and declare the independence of Kosovo followed by recognitions from Washington and the entire EU block and all other countries of the world that support this outcome.

In the end you all must ask yourself one question and that is:

- How can you expect the EU, NATO and US to back down from Russia when they already control Kosovo. They pour money there. They have their military there. What you think and hope that is going to happen is impossible, it will never happen under today circumstances.

These organizations have already bypassed Russia when they bombed Serbia, what makes you think they wont do it again? They knew very well then as they do now that the path onto which they put Kosovo back then is independence. Kosovo is slowly but surely moving along this path. It is building its war destroyed economy and is setting the foundation of democratic nation reflecting the Western values of democracy (no need to look any further that the way the anniversary of Battle of Kosovo was handled by Kosovo Police).

Serbia ... wake up! Time is of essence ... You need to chose EU (peace, prosperity and development) or Russia (wars, isolation and poverty). The choice is yours!

Cvele,

So what you are basicly saying is that you are willing to sacrifice the "holy land of Kosovo, all the monasteries and all your holy battle grounds" for more land in Bosnia and Croatia, land which bears no religious or historic meaning to you?

This proves that you arent really interested in 'the holy land of Kosovo' what you are interested in is territory & land.

Indonesia's plan is dumb because Kosovo was part of Serbia under Yugoslavia and Indonesia's plan would automatically make VOjvodina independent too. If Kosovo was not a part of Serbia under Yugoslavia Vojvodina wasn't either and then they need independence as well as they had the same status.

nothing new in here actually.

the Serbs writing about law and justice, and the Albanians presenting the 999th repetition of their desperate wishful thinking ( of course combined with doubtful accusations )

and a short sentence to Nick:
the offered broad autonomy would be supervised by the international community. that should be enough for Albanians , if they do not trust the Serbs.

no matter how you turn it, from which side you present it... your arguments are quite weak.

I need a history lesson here.

France, of the UN Security Council, is backing a UN Resolution that intends to dismember Serbia and the Resolution mentions the province of Kosovo and "it's history". What I need the history lesson about is how France got to be on the UN Security Council in the first place?! If surrendering to Nazi Germany during WW2 and collaborating for a number of years and laying back while other countries land at the beachheads to liberate them from the occupiers qualifies a country as a Security Council member, then that Security Council needs to be expanded to take in similar countries which also lacked a spine during WW2, and for them - 6 decades on - to try and dictate a Resolution to peoples who were singled out by the Nazis for 'special attention'.

Mr.Laki you need to ask the NATO leaders about the exodus of people from Kosovo. By your logic the people in the twin towers would have remained inside if they knew that someone was going to crash the planes into the buildings? Albanian mothers and fathers like my old peasant mother during WWII knew that remaining in Kosovo or a place that will be a war zone is not safe. Mr. Laki you also need to ask Ceku and Tachi about their orders for the people to flee. If the Krasnicki family was alive you could ask them why they did not flee when the KLA came under NATO protection and killed them all. They should have known of the danger because the same thing has happened to other Albanians who opposed the KLA. They should have fled to Serbia like thousands of Serbs, Roma, Albanians and Muslim Serbs did during the NATO attack on a sovereign nation.

Mr. Walter the difference between your statment and mine is that I lived in Prishtina and every single member of my family was kicked out of their house by orders of serbian paramilitary/soldiers/police. They would come to your neighborhood/house and give you 5 min to leave your house. While there they will also steal/grab anything worth it from my family members, and in their cases their life savings and foreign cars.

To sum it up in Martin Luther King, Jr. words "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

Russia, cannot be bought out and fact remains that Putin illuminated with his reminder regarding consequences following Munich - the west needs to realise Russia was stating think but we will never let this pass in the UN and if you try to do things illegally and provide the green light to the consequences then you need to be prepared.

Russian interest is now served completly by blocking such folly - new talks will begin in July under the auspices of the Chinese UN SC Presidency.

Maybe the compromise will come from the tatters of Ahtisaari plan but it is clear that it will never be adopted as a resolution - without which there is nothing other then at best Status quo - Not even the old UK band had so many come backs but then one of their songs was Again & Again!!!

Laki, residents of Kosovo started heading for the borders en masse in 1999 when the first NATO bombs started falling and killing. Is this must be the ethnic cleansing that Albanians keep referring to?

Russia will not relent on its stance. Kosovo will set a precedent no matter what the U.S. or the EU have to say about it.

If Russia gives the West it's way on Kosovo, then it will be forced to recognize the demands of the Russian minorities in Georgia and Moldova for independence, and if it does that there will be a war on its doorstep that it will be sucked into. Russia would also be hard pressed to deny Chechnya independence.

Russia isn't angling for a deal with the West on Kosovo. Russia's stance is based on its own internal concerns.

The bottom line is this. The EU won't recognize Kosovo independence without a new UN resolution, and there won't be a new UN resolution unless Russia supports it.

The Kosovo-Albanians have two choices: negotiate with Belgrade or fight another war. I hope they choose negotiations.

This isn't 1999, and if the Albanians choose war again they should realize that the United States won't be able to rescue them.

The U.S. military is bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan, and does not have the man power or the equipment to fight an another war in Kosovo.

We couldn't even rescue our own people from Hurricane Katrina because our national guard and reserve troops were off in Iraq.

There was barely enough political will to fight the first Kosovo war. Congress darn near voted to cut-off funding for it. As an American I can tell you there is no political will to fight another round in Kosovo.

George Bush may have made promises when he was in Tirana, but that doesn't mean that he has any intention or ability to keep them.

Bush is a lame duck president with a 30% approval rating. If he's the man that you Albanians have your hopes pinned on then you'll be sorely disappointed. Bush dosen't keep the promises that he makes to his own people, what makes you think he'll come through for you?

I woud like to ask every one on this debate or fourum and specialy albanians amd serbs what do you think is the best for kosovars and serbs to diside what to do about kosovo.

Why are there so many Kosova Albanians living in Kosova here and very few (if any) Serbs living in Serbia that comment here?

Walter, your posts are incoherent and very disturbing. I am not sure what are you gaining by making these kind of irrational claims but it is very disturbing to read comments like your last one. If your intention is to mislead Serb public and others that read this site, you will not succeed in it, I would have hoped that you and all the rest that spread lies and make up things know better by now.

I wonder why B92 is even allowing these comments to get posted. These comments surely make B92 appear as being e website that tenders to the conspiracy theorists and not a serious reporting news organization.

I am not sure how one can come to such a tantalizing conclusion that would suggest NATO created nearly 1 million refugees. Mr. Walter do you ever, ever ask yourself why these 1 million refugees returned back together with NATO, if NATO made them refugees?

Mr. Walter how can you explain images and videos of Serb army, police and paramilitary units loading these people in busses, trains and what not and sending them towards border with Macedonia and Albania. Do you ever wonder why Serb army, police and paramilitary units did not chase KLA, when everyone in the world know what kind of a rag tag structure this was; don’t you think that it would have been much better to have chased KLA? I am sure there is a perfect international "legal" way that you can come up and explain the killings, rapes and expulsions done by then Serb government, as it appears that only in your twisted mind such things are legal, and when they are not legal they are all part of some ploy and propaganda, taken from the Nazis policies, and directed against Serbia and its people.

Dude, the only Nazi thing in all this is the fact that one government, in this case Serbia's government, I stress here at that time, systematically and orchestrated by the highest governmental institutions, where even the Academy of Arts and Science took part actively in devising plans for changing the makeup of former Yugoslavia, took a campaign of mass killing, rapes, and expulsion all over former Yugoslavia, never seen before in Europe since the WWII (also, it appear that even in today's Serb government there are people who are still nostalgic about those times and who fault Milosevic only for the fact that he failed in his policies and not that those were wrong policies).

Please, don’t blame others for the failures and mistakes of your country's leaders. You are not helping anyone by denying the fault of Serbia and its government in what took place in Yugoslavia and certainly you are not helping your people in the region to reconcile with their neighbors.

Carrot? What carrot could the EU or the US possibly offer? Honestly, if you go this farm then at best you should tell us what this carrot is? Come on.

USA lifting Jackson-Vanick? Something they keep purely as a discriminatory measure against Russia and deliberatly lifted from the Ukraine a couple of weeks before elections to help get the 'right people' elected (i.e. a
blatent attempt to manipulate democratic elections). Or maybe allowing Russia to join the WTO? They let China joinm but (the US in particular) are deliberately dragging out the process because they think it will give them leverage over the Russians. Cancelling missile defence in the Czech Republic and Poland? Would Bush trade loosing face with his best pals in eastern europe for kosovo independence? Why would Russia accept this considering that the EU is already seriously divided on the issue.

Honestly, talk about having one's head in the clouds. t's just wishful thinking.

James, you clearly have no idea how the EU works. Unfortunately I do. The more they talk about being unified, the less that they actually are. National politics always come first. The smaller states get bullied into moderating their positions (slovakia for example) or not 'opposing' the policy. The Spanish and the Portugese are told to button their lip for the sake of 'european unity' etc. etc.

The EC (if we are speaking of a leagally recognized entity) is not 'democratic' by a long shot. Most EU citizens look to their own parliaments, and common foreign and security policy (now that's a real joke) is directed via the Council of Ministers (unelected). They're not going to allow the peasant EU citizen to have a say.

The whole constitution issue is turning into a constipation issue. No one expects any miracles, but they are praying for them...

Walter,

excellent comments,

Brian Murray - 100% spot on Russia is not going to let this through because it is in their interest too not because of a "slavic" association!

The US political 'elite' sadly have lost the plot - lets hope they realise what is happening before it is really too late for the sake of all in the world. The US citizens are only too aware as we know from Bush's low ratings - the same can be seen in the UK where Bliar is the accepted spelling for thankfully the ex-PM - the greatest warmonger the UK ever had!!!

JAMES I am not sure why I am even responding to you because it is obvious you have not read anything of world history or about how Yugoslavia was destabilized. It is pointless for me to direct you to literature since you parrot the line. Talk about incoherence and irrational claims “dude”. My comments to you are incoherent and irrational because you don’t understand them. “Little learning is a dangerous thing” my friend because it exposes your limitations to understand how you are manipulated.

You want B92 to censor me, oh yes B92 has censored my comments, not because they were false but because they in their wisdom or lack of it felt that Victor or some other poster is sincere in their comments. Why did the refugees return James? Maybe you should ask why all the refugees did not return? Refugees return when threat of bombs falling on their head is over. Serbs, Jews, Roma, and Serb Muslims did not return nor did Albanians who opposed the KLA because they did not want to wind up like the Krasnicki family. Many of those who did not go back to Kosovo are my neighbors in Canada now.

How does one come to a conclusion that NATO created 1 million refugees? By example my friend! Look at any theatre of conflict and you will see a flood of refugees fleeing a war zone. In the case of Kosovo there was an added element, KLA was telling you to leave. Why do you think, or do you think, about the 4 million Iraqi refugees in the neighboring nations. It is very simple James all you need to do is read and ask questions.

I saw those images that you write about of trains and people leaving. I never saw a single door locked or a single police officer push or maltreat those who chose to leave on the train. My understanding is that they could have stayed if they wanted to but many did not dare because the KLA told them to leave. This exodus was for American eyes so that Tachi and Ceku would get their air force. It worked?

Point me to your evidence James that this was a government plan? The Hague Tribunal had no such evidence so they had to manufacture Bosnia and Croatia. My country’s leaders are in Canada and I blame them for hypocrisy because they work tirelessly to preserve unity of Canada while they support dismemberment of Serbia.

I fault Milosevic for one thing and that is .his inability to preserve Yugoslavia and I fault people like you for its demise. Reconciliation James is a two way street but I am afraid that this will not happen since we have close minded people like you. People like you James rarely question the statements made by figures in authority. As a consequence you are generally ignorant of the views of people like me who oppose your position. Tolerance of divergent views is a basic premise of a democratic society as is free speech but you wouldn’t know anything about that would you

I actually hope Russia vetoes the Resolution.
All Albanians need is USA, England, France and Italy to go along the US. Switzerland Macedonia and Albania will follow them. Most likely Italy will become the largest trading partner. I think life would be great even if these were the only country in the world recognizing it. Certainly beats living under Serbia.
And with the Russian veto the recognition of independence by the countries above is going to be very fast. I don't think any Albanians care whether Spain, Russia, China, Belarus, Indonesia, South Africa etc. recognizes their independence. It'd be good if they did but in case plan B goes into effect those countries that won't recognize it have no influence in the standard of living in Kosovo whatsoever.
Also to comment on someone who threatened Albanians with war after US, UK, France Italy etc. recognize independence; well if and when Serbia starts that it will turn into another Iran, or Cuba. States who have the backing of Russia. If Serbia is looking forward to that prospect then they're welcome to do whatever they want to reach that goal. Hopefully Castro won't be dead by the time Kostunica decides to meet him.

Nick,
Thx for agreeing that its Serbian historic and rightful land.

Stevo,
Only reason France is a VETO holding member on the UNSC is because of their agreement with the allies at the end of the WW2. Only axis nation on the UNSC is Germany and not even Japan got that option. They needed those 3 countries (england, france, and germany) because the rest r unreliable allies such as Spain, Poland, Yugoslavia, Austria, etc etc... which would agree with opt for Russian view or their own. In any case simply put too many countries would be harder to control and no votes would ever go the "right" way if there were more countries on the UNSC.

Bob,

for your information, I did some research a while back and after the war in 1999 the Kosovo Albanian population nearly doubled in Kosovo. In the year 2000 there were 1,584,000 people. 100,000 Serbs were froced out. In 2007 the population rocketed to 2.6 million and the world knows that the increase were not because of the Serbs. So you can do the math... Clearly the situation was taken advantage of and of course the population is going to be 90% Albanians now... But the media here in the US will not show you statitics ... I also have to scoff at most of the comments made by Albanians here... They cry victim too much... unlike most of the world, I have seen both sides of the stories and they are equally as guilty as the Serbs...

As far as Walter goes, while I am far more moderate in my views then he is, I greatly admire his power of speech and I appreciate his contribution. Some of the things he says are just amazing.
"I woud like to ask every one on this debate or fourum and specialy albanians amd serbs what do you think is the best for kosovars and serbs to diside what to do about kosovo. (dritoniusa, Friday, 29 June, 2007, 20:49)"
Partition seems to be a real compromise to me. I'd give Trepca (with connecting land bridge) and Presevo in exchange for some of our important cultural sites (with a connecting land bridge).
That gives both our people protection from abuse. It gives more Albanians more freedom and economic vitality and gives Serbs something we can call "Kosovo".
I think that deals with all the major issues I think. The Devil is in the details, but I think we have room to work something out that benefits us both. Seems to me that partition while not ideal for either side, at least is acceptable to most.
Either that, or let both Kosovo and Serbia into the EU right now! Then Kosovo wouldn't really be another country and the borders would be moot. The EU needs to get serious about the region. They offer hope for a better tomorrow for both our peoples.

"Why are there so many Kosova Albanians living in Kosova here and very few (if any) Serbs living in Serbia that comment here? (Nick, Friday, 29 June, 2007, 20:54)"
The Serbs from Serbia post on the Serbia language forum for the most part. We Western Serbs lost our language generations ago. We write much better in English, and well to be honest, I rather enjoy talking to the Albanians here. Its been a great learning experience for me. Especially since many of you live there. There are Serbs that post here, even at least one that lives in Kosovo, that guy Boris, he's very moderate. Even if I could write well in Serbian, I think I'd still prefer to talk to Albanians. Knowledge is power.

"…The euphoric posts regarding Russia's victory over West indicated the state of being high! Just a sober reminder, a day ago, Cristina Gallach, spokeswoman for Javier Solana indicated that Brussels is getting impatient as well with the Russians, and if this Russian stance continues EU will take its own decision. On the same note Daniel Fried in an interview with Stern said that if Russians still block the solution for Kosovo, the next steps are well understood…."

Or maybe Miss Gallach and Mr. Stern are guided more by wishful thinking then reality.
Some other western journalist and diplomats are looking at the situation rather differently:

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=17792
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2834af4e-15d0-11dc-a7ce-000b5df10621.html
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=011b5cf0-1867-4f29-bb27-772e111a2635&k=79220

"…And if you guys think that Russia is a match to EU and USA politically, economically and militarily then you all have a serious problem…"

Oh, and I thought that USA and EU stands for human rights, democracy and rule of the law, and not for the power politics, silly me.

But, if it is a mater of power, Russia doesn't have to be exactly a match to the West. We see that even now Russia can in certain situation Russia protect it's interest against the will of the West. Who knows what future brings. World is changing. Historically, when ever was a hegemonic power, weaker states organized coalitions against hegemon. That could happen in our time too.

"…- How can you expect the EU, NATO and US to back down from Russia when they already control Kosovo. They pour money there. They have their military there. What you think and hope that is going to happen is impossible, it will never happen under today circumstances…"

Circumstances sometimes change very quickly. They are all ready very different today then in the nineties.

"…Dude, the only Nazi thing in all this is the fact that one government, in this case Serbia's government, I stress here at that time, systematically and orchestrated by the highest governmental institutions, where even the Academy of Arts and Science took part actively in devising plans for changing the makeup of former Yugoslavia, took a campaign of mass killing, rapes, and expulsion all over former Yugoslavia, never seen before in Europe since the WWII
Please, don’t blame others for the failures and mistakes of your country's leaders. You are not helping anyone by denying the fault of Serbia and its government in what took place in Yugoslavia and certainly you are not helping your people in the region to reconcile with their neighbors…."

During every war there is a certain kind of fog that prevents objective vision. After war stops, fabrications, exaggerations, propaganda, delusions beginning to settle and clearer picture emerges.

We should judge on basis of facts. Facts are that Serbia has highest number of refuges in Europe, that Serbia is most multi cultural country of ex - YU and that all other new states are almost completely ethnically "pure", because they expelled their minorities. (Only in Serbia numbers of minorities didn't change significantly before, during and after the war). There are plenty of material evidence of racist intentions and policies of Croatian government and some evidence against Bosnian Muslim government. On the other side material base for claims against Serbian government is extremely thin. James, you should reconsider your views.

Stevo,

Well said about France! Why are they on the Security council? The only reason I can think of is because they have Nukes! But then so does India and their army is 20 times bigger, so I really don't get it.

Cvele,

Where did i agree that its Serb historcial and rightful land?

Please dont post such ridiculous interpretations of my comments.

There was someone that stated that the population of Kosovo/a went from 1.9 million to 2.6 million, hinting that these "new" Albanians migrated to Kosovo/a from Albania Macedonia etc. Now in this studies of yours can you please post by how much the population of these countries decreased. Caution though you might be bitterly surprised.

As for the separation option, then I would like some of the Serbs here that are in favor of it to answer this question. If say some part of Kosovo/a goes to Serbia, what would they think if other part of Kosovo/a decided to join Albania?
I am asking this question because when the negotiations started there were two basic principles.
1. No separation
2. No joining with any other countries.
Now I am thinking since by the option of Separation that some Serbs here favor parts of Kosovo/a in the north will be split and join Serbia. Since the northern part according to this logic will be allowed to break join Serbia, then accordingly the other part of Kosovo/a can choose to join Albania. Since the splitting principle will be broken then the other principle is effectively broken too.

Why are there so many Kosova Albanians living in Kosova here and very few (if any) Serbs living in Serbia that comment here?
(Nick, Friday, 29 June, 2007, 20:54)

It's obvious - cause all the Serbs were kicked out by the albanians - it's not rocket science, my friend, it's history.

Well your statement doesn't make sense. If we go by what Serbs say, Albanians became a majority in Kosovo/a only lately. Some say they became a majority after 1999. Now on one side you have very organized state with the latest Russian military technology at its disposal, Serbia. On the other side you have the minority Albanians of Kosovo/a. How in the hell could such an ill armed minority expel a majority armed to their teeth with the latest military technology?
I guess you're neither a rocket scientist nor a historian.