Tadić and Mesić discuss WW2

Notice, no apology from Croatia. Still no apology. That's why Tadic's apology was a slap to the face of all the Serbs who suffered from Operation Storm and the relatives of the Serbs who died at the hands of the Ustasha during WW2. Croatia is still intent on suggesting that the Serbs are lying or imagining things about WW2.

That's why Tadic's apology is a disgrace. Croatia's intent on ignoring the past and moving on is like a murderer saying that the victim deserved it and we should just forget it and move on. Croatia killed more Serbs than any other ethnic group in all of the Balkans.

no apology... and once again, they're trying to brush the past under the rug.

Pathetic!

Don't get me wrong, I think that all sides including Croatia, has reasons enough to apology. I don't even think that Serbia should be the first to offer an apology. But someone has to be first, and the fact that it was Tadic can only be seen as a good thing imo. I don't see it as anything negative. We know that terible things have happened in our name, which we can only be ashamed for. An apology is the least we can do.

Ofcourse bad things have happened to us also, no side is innocent. However it's not up to us to point fingers and constantly blame others. It's up to the other side to look at themselves and their role in the recent war.

Blacky,

I don't want to be rude, but I think you're the one who do not understand the crimes committed by your nation, a few years ago, against tenth of thousands of non-Serbs. In due time, I am sure that Croatia would present its apology to the Serb nation for what happened in Jasenovac. Actually, it is too soon and many Croats have not overcome yet the crimes committed in Croatia during the 1992-95 War. What happened at the hospital in Vukovar is very much alive.

And what happened to the Serbs isn't very much alive?
You can say there were more Bosnian victims, and that Serbians did the most crimes, so they must apologise first. I don't think that thinking like that will do much to bring all sides closer together. Isn't the lost of one loved one hard for everyone, no matter wheter they are Serb Croat or Bosnian. Apologies are never to soon.

Blackey,
Tadic's apology was not a disgrace. It had to be said.
It actually makes me feel proud not ashamed that Serbia had the guts and decency to do it first.
And those of us who lost family at the hands of the Ustasha in WW2 will never forget but hopefully be able to move on. We all know what the Croatians did and whether they apologises or not does not change history.

In order to sort out WW2, then everything needs to be brought to the table, including nedic's serbia, the cetnik movement especially towards end of ww2. I am all for it but lets discuss it all, and not selective history.

I agree with you Richard: «the lost of one loved one is hard for everyone, no matter wheter they are Serb Croat or Bosnian.» However, the Serbs were the aggressors and they are the ones who had to present an apology, which they did, and we'll see what the others will do. Many Croats and Muslims believe, I am sure, that under such circumstances, they don't have to present an apology but knowing that they also have their share of crimes and atrocities, they will later present an apologu to the Serbs.

Again, to bring the topic back to WWII from where some other commenters have attempted to shift it, I think this is the start of a very productive round of talks between Serbia and Croatia. I really think Croats, now that Tudjman is long dead, want to put the past behind them. Being the most slavishly loyal Nazi collaborationist state in WWII doesn't sit well for Croats when examining their history and I think Tadic's apology last week was the opening that was needed for both states to maturely and seriously examine all the unsolved wounds the two countries committed against each other.

Victor, the Serbs were not the aggressors. Croatia's president at the time was pro-Nazi, an active holocaust denier. He openly said thank god my wife is not jewish or serb. Heck, ethnic cleansing started in summer '91, by the Croats, when they attacked and cleansed tens of thousands of serbs from Western Slavonia. Serbs saw this as a continuation of the genocide against them, so Krajina was self defense. Why would they become second class citizens? Furthermore, secession is illegal unless all sides agree - so croatian secession was illegal.

Victor, you are once again setting a double standard here. The war was not only started by Serbs but by all nationalists who at the time happen to be running the republics. In fact before anything happened Slovenians and Croatians were arming themselves. Dont tell people that Tujman and Izetbegovic were any better then Milosevic, they were all nationalists. That is why Tujman was in jail during Tito rule. Also the war in 1991 would have not even began had these stupid nationalists not listened to Germans and USA who have dissected and conquered former Yugoslavia. We are all weaker for the war happening. Once again everything is in its place again. What has changed since the war? Nothing except that 100,000 people have died and people hate each other more then ever. What was the purpose of the breakup? Better economic situation which has proven hard and once again, Slovenia is as it was during Yugoslavia the wealthiest, with its businesses controlling the ex-Yugoslav market, Croatians still have the thousands of kilometers of beaches, Bosnia is still the poorest, Kosovo even worse, and Serbs still fighting to prove themselves. So in the end what has truly changed, just the exponential growth of hatred.

The only way to move forward is for the 100's of thousands of Serbs who were cleansed from their homelands in what is called Croatia to be repatriated at full expense of the Croatian government. Then they should be given Autonomy or independence, and then only then can we move on from the past!

Croatia still believes that they can get away with genocide of Serbs and ethnic cleansing of Italians and play the victim card.

In Croatia's view, genocide of Serbs in Independent State of Croatia 1941-45 was the result of "serbochetnik agression" in 1991. In normal countries, people having such logic are safely locked away, not given the privilege to run the country.

Genocide has no statute of limitation. During WWII Croatian state has expressed intent and took action to eradicate Serbs as an ethnic group within Croatia's borders. This is historical fact.

Croatian citizens of Croat ethnicity were encouraged to murder their Serb and Jewish neighbors and loot their property. The original Ustasha documents showing this are plentiful. After the war, the looted property was not restituted, because in many cases the entire Serb families were wiped out. As a sordid curiosity, even Jasenovac extermination camp was erected on a looted property taken frm Serb industrialist.

The whole ploy of fake genocide in Bosnia during civil war is meant to hide the only genocide that really happended in the Balkans - genocide of Serbs during WWII.

Reconcilliation has its course- Croatia has to apologize for the genocide,
to put genocide in school curriculum, to restute looted property and compensate the victim's familes and then beg for fogiveness.

Like Germany did.

Mesic should kneel in Jasenovac, like Willy Brandt did and beg for fogiveness.

Inviting Holy Father Benedict XVi to kneel with him would be even more efective.


It is Christian to forgive, but not to someone bent on repeating the crime.

Germany ackcknowledged the responsibility for The Holocaust and Croatia probably never will.

This is irrelevant, because neither Croatia's denial nor the waters of Danube and Sava can wash away Croatia's responsibility for the genocide.

And what about the 100's of thousands of Italians who were cleansed from their homelands in Croatia and Slovenia?
Millions of Italians do not forget.

No...No....No....No.....

You're gonna get the same thing happening again, as what Tito created... only to have the animosity, discrepency, and suspicion reopen wounds 40 years later...

Nip it in the bud NOW!!!!.

Follow the example of the American Civil War..
It's what helped lead America into the 20th century..
Reconcilliation and truth.
Not half baked recognitions and eye-rolling acceptances.

Open discussions between both sides... document living witnesses, no lies, and for God's sake....NO MORE SUSPICION!!!


Only THEN, can everybody move on....

Oh, by the way, I genuinely like Mr. Tadic's strategies in politics, but I personally don't think Mr.Tadic has the right to sign a new chapter, until the previous chapter is fully read, understood and closed..

Belgrades' politics was always payed with Serbs blood west of the Danube, and Mr. Tadic seems to be okay to wipe off the table without asking anything more...

Regardless of what Croatia says or does, Tadic apologizing was the proper thing to do. He speaks with more moral authority then anyone else in the Balkans now.

Unfortunately, in the interest of fostering "brotherhood & Unity" Tito swept Ustashe crimes under the rug. Sadly, because of this, the Ustashe were able to make a come back. Hopefully Tadic's words will not allow Serbs to make the same mistake.

I do hope Mesic takes real and substantial steps to deal with what happened in WWII and reflect on how those actions influenced how Serbs reacted in the 1990's. To us, Tudjman's policies most certainly appeared to be a continuation of Ustashe policies. The fact that after Operation Storm the dream of a Serb Free Croatia was obtained certainly do not do much to convince us Serbs that anything has changed in Croatian attitudes.

"In due time, I am sure that Croatia would present its apology to the Serb nation for what happened in Jasenovac."
So Victor, its more important for you that Serbs make apologies for the more recent crimes first, then the Croatians might find it in their hearts to forgive us? Would you apply the same logic to the Albanians? That the Albanians should apologize for 2004, and then we Serbs might present our apology for 1999? I hope you realize just how absurd your thinking is.
The fact is the Croatians as a whole have not faced up to the crimes committed during WWII in their names, while Serbia is working very hard at accepting their role in the wars of the 1990's.
Does anyone else find it rather amusing that there are many many signs in Dubrovnik pointing out all the roof tiles that were destroyed in the war, yet Jasenovac doesn't list any of the crimes that were committed there? That just about sums up the Croatian attitude.

To move on? Just a second. Why would we move on? This actually, serves us well, both Serbs and Croats. This way we will keep the distance from each other, rather then engage in some kind of closness that proved to be disasterous for both groups.
To forget and forgive? No way.
I don't want Croats to forgive Serbs anything, nor I will forgive anything to them.
It's a matter of practicallity. This way we will always stay apart. Far, far apart.

Massimo, I did not forget the Italians but I did forget to add them in my comment, thank you for reminding everyone that the Croatians want to live in a ethnically clean state, clean of Serbs, Italians, Jews, Roma. Yet they are on a fast track to EU membership, so much for the Eu's mantra about multiculturalism!

«The war was not only started by Serbs but by all nationalists..»

Jon, you may be right. They were all pulling on the blanket, and it was all toron in piece! As you say, 100 000 people died in this fatal exercice.

Yoy analysis is the honest truth. I thank you for exposing this in such a true manner. It helps me to be more objective. Hvala!

The Ball is clearly in Mesic's court (this is not a play on Wimbledon or anything).

Tadic has stepped up to the plate. If the Croats (leadership, intelligentsi etc. in particular) don't or won't then they'll be even more damned by history and historians. It's in their own interests.

The 'leaking' of WWII war dead numbers story unfortunately points towards the Croats learning nothing and throwing away an important chance to start, just start to try and have some normal relations.

If it doesn't happen, they can't blame the Serbs.

To the mods and readers, i apologize...
I meant to point out Serbs west of the Drina river..


I'm embarassed...

"And what about the 100's of thousands of Italians who were cleansed from their homelands in Croatia and Slovenia?
Millions of Italians do not forget."

The Italians deserve the land back that was taken by the Croats and Croatia. Croatia gained land, through Yugoslavia, which was never its in the first place.

Since Croatia was big in wanting out and wanting to destroy Yugoslavia, it should not keep the gains it received from Yugosavia.

Italian individuals are a warmer people who aren't cold-blooded killers.

As a matter of fact Croatian and other Jews who made it onto Italian-controlled Balkan territory in WWII were safe. No Balkan Jews were killed by Italians.

That is why some Chetnik cooperation with the Italians during WWII wasn't evil, as the Italians protected Jews and Serbs (to an extent).

after reading all of these comments made me think,doesnt matter what these politicians do and who says sorry first or second or whatever....it comes down to the people and what people remember...and what the serbs did to the croats will never be forgotten, serbs started the war, croats were defenseless, i still remember watching live footage of the serbian soldeirs leving serbia with their women throwing flowers on them and everyone singing basically to cross the river to croatia and to clean out the croats, it was serbs who attacked croats....as in krajina, where i was during the war as a child, all i know the serbs did not want to live under cro government so they rebelled and starting fighting being funded by yugo army....these might sound like simple facts but its the truth, croats did not want a war but had no choice but to defend their independence which they had every right to hold a national referenden and once croatia got independence then they were attacked...simple as that, rest of this i read is nonsense....and what happened WW2 yes ustase did commit crimes and who ever said that croatia never had to pay for what they did like the germans...why should croatia choose to, germany did not face what the ustasa and other croats faced the tragedy in BLEIBURG..who will apologise to croats for the tragedy in Bleiburg after the war (if u dont know what happened look it up)...and after how much torture ex ustase got from yugo government is something not even germany got....sad to see once again to make the serbs look like the victims, just imagine what would of happened to croats if croatia lost the war in 90's, thousands would be jailed and tortured just like after '45 just for defending their homeland...

Notice, no apology from Croatia. Still no apology. That's why Tadic's apology was a slap to the face of all the Serbs who suffered from Operation Storm and the relatives of the Serbs who died at the hands of the Ustasha during WW2. Croatia is still intent on suggesting that the Serbs are lying or imagining things about WW2.

That's why Tadic's apology is a disgrace. Croatia's intent on ignoring the past and moving on is like a murderer saying that the victim deserved it and we should just forget it and move on. Croatia killed more Serbs than any other ethnic group in all of the Balkans.

no apology... and once again, they're trying to brush the past under the rug.

Pathetic!

Don't get me wrong, I think that all sides including Croatia, has reasons enough to apology. I don't even think that Serbia should be the first to offer an apology. But someone has to be first, and the fact that it was Tadic can only be seen as a good thing imo. I don't see it as anything negative. We know that terible things have happened in our name, which we can only be ashamed for. An apology is the least we can do.

Ofcourse bad things have happened to us also, no side is innocent. However it's not up to us to point fingers and constantly blame others. It's up to the other side to look at themselves and their role in the recent war.

Blacky,

I don't want to be rude, but I think you're the one who do not understand the crimes committed by your nation, a few years ago, against tenth of thousands of non-Serbs. In due time, I am sure that Croatia would present its apology to the Serb nation for what happened in Jasenovac. Actually, it is too soon and many Croats have not overcome yet the crimes committed in Croatia during the 1992-95 War. What happened at the hospital in Vukovar is very much alive.

And what happened to the Serbs isn't very much alive?
You can say there were more Bosnian victims, and that Serbians did the most crimes, so they must apologise first. I don't think that thinking like that will do much to bring all sides closer together. Isn't the lost of one loved one hard for everyone, no matter wheter they are Serb Croat or Bosnian. Apologies are never to soon.

Blackey,
Tadic's apology was not a disgrace. It had to be said.
It actually makes me feel proud not ashamed that Serbia had the guts and decency to do it first.
And those of us who lost family at the hands of the Ustasha in WW2 will never forget but hopefully be able to move on. We all know what the Croatians did and whether they apologises or not does not change history.

In order to sort out WW2, then everything needs to be brought to the table, including nedic's serbia, the cetnik movement especially towards end of ww2. I am all for it but lets discuss it all, and not selective history.

I agree with you Richard: «the lost of one loved one is hard for everyone, no matter wheter they are Serb Croat or Bosnian.» However, the Serbs were the aggressors and they are the ones who had to present an apology, which they did, and we'll see what the others will do. Many Croats and Muslims believe, I am sure, that under such circumstances, they don't have to present an apology but knowing that they also have their share of crimes and atrocities, they will later present an apologu to the Serbs.

Again, to bring the topic back to WWII from where some other commenters have attempted to shift it, I think this is the start of a very productive round of talks between Serbia and Croatia. I really think Croats, now that Tudjman is long dead, want to put the past behind them. Being the most slavishly loyal Nazi collaborationist state in WWII doesn't sit well for Croats when examining their history and I think Tadic's apology last week was the opening that was needed for both states to maturely and seriously examine all the unsolved wounds the two countries committed against each other.

Victor, the Serbs were not the aggressors. Croatia's president at the time was pro-Nazi, an active holocaust denier. He openly said thank god my wife is not jewish or serb. Heck, ethnic cleansing started in summer '91, by the Croats, when they attacked and cleansed tens of thousands of serbs from Western Slavonia. Serbs saw this as a continuation of the genocide against them, so Krajina was self defense. Why would they become second class citizens? Furthermore, secession is illegal unless all sides agree - so croatian secession was illegal.

Victor, you are once again setting a double standard here. The war was not only started by Serbs but by all nationalists who at the time happen to be running the republics. In fact before anything happened Slovenians and Croatians were arming themselves. Dont tell people that Tujman and Izetbegovic were any better then Milosevic, they were all nationalists. That is why Tujman was in jail during Tito rule. Also the war in 1991 would have not even began had these stupid nationalists not listened to Germans and USA who have dissected and conquered former Yugoslavia. We are all weaker for the war happening. Once again everything is in its place again. What has changed since the war? Nothing except that 100,000 people have died and people hate each other more then ever. What was the purpose of the breakup? Better economic situation which has proven hard and once again, Slovenia is as it was during Yugoslavia the wealthiest, with its businesses controlling the ex-Yugoslav market, Croatians still have the thousands of kilometers of beaches, Bosnia is still the poorest, Kosovo even worse, and Serbs still fighting to prove themselves. So in the end what has truly changed, just the exponential growth of hatred.

The only way to move forward is for the 100's of thousands of Serbs who were cleansed from their homelands in what is called Croatia to be repatriated at full expense of the Croatian government. Then they should be given Autonomy or independence, and then only then can we move on from the past!

Croatia still believes that they can get away with genocide of Serbs and ethnic cleansing of Italians and play the victim card.

In Croatia's view, genocide of Serbs in Independent State of Croatia 1941-45 was the result of "serbochetnik agression" in 1991. In normal countries, people having such logic are safely locked away, not given the privilege to run the country.

Genocide has no statute of limitation. During WWII Croatian state has expressed intent and took action to eradicate Serbs as an ethnic group within Croatia's borders. This is historical fact.

Croatian citizens of Croat ethnicity were encouraged to murder their Serb and Jewish neighbors and loot their property. The original Ustasha documents showing this are plentiful. After the war, the looted property was not restituted, because in many cases the entire Serb families were wiped out. As a sordid curiosity, even Jasenovac extermination camp was erected on a looted property taken frm Serb industrialist.

The whole ploy of fake genocide in Bosnia during civil war is meant to hide the only genocide that really happended in the Balkans - genocide of Serbs during WWII.

Reconcilliation has its course- Croatia has to apologize for the genocide,
to put genocide in school curriculum, to restute looted property and compensate the victim's familes and then beg for fogiveness.

Like Germany did.

Mesic should kneel in Jasenovac, like Willy Brandt did and beg for fogiveness.

Inviting Holy Father Benedict XVi to kneel with him would be even more efective.


It is Christian to forgive, but not to someone bent on repeating the crime.

Germany ackcknowledged the responsibility for The Holocaust and Croatia probably never will.

This is irrelevant, because neither Croatia's denial nor the waters of Danube and Sava can wash away Croatia's responsibility for the genocide.

And what about the 100's of thousands of Italians who were cleansed from their homelands in Croatia and Slovenia?
Millions of Italians do not forget.

No...No....No....No.....

You're gonna get the same thing happening again, as what Tito created... only to have the animosity, discrepency, and suspicion reopen wounds 40 years later...

Nip it in the bud NOW!!!!.

Follow the example of the American Civil War..
It's what helped lead America into the 20th century..
Reconcilliation and truth.
Not half baked recognitions and eye-rolling acceptances.

Open discussions between both sides... document living witnesses, no lies, and for God's sake....NO MORE SUSPICION!!!


Only THEN, can everybody move on....

Oh, by the way, I genuinely like Mr. Tadic's strategies in politics, but I personally don't think Mr.Tadic has the right to sign a new chapter, until the previous chapter is fully read, understood and closed..

Belgrades' politics was always payed with Serbs blood west of the Danube, and Mr. Tadic seems to be okay to wipe off the table without asking anything more...

Regardless of what Croatia says or does, Tadic apologizing was the proper thing to do. He speaks with more moral authority then anyone else in the Balkans now.

Unfortunately, in the interest of fostering "brotherhood & Unity" Tito swept Ustashe crimes under the rug. Sadly, because of this, the Ustashe were able to make a come back. Hopefully Tadic's words will not allow Serbs to make the same mistake.

I do hope Mesic takes real and substantial steps to deal with what happened in WWII and reflect on how those actions influenced how Serbs reacted in the 1990's. To us, Tudjman's policies most certainly appeared to be a continuation of Ustashe policies. The fact that after Operation Storm the dream of a Serb Free Croatia was obtained certainly do not do much to convince us Serbs that anything has changed in Croatian attitudes.

"In due time, I am sure that Croatia would present its apology to the Serb nation for what happened in Jasenovac."
So Victor, its more important for you that Serbs make apologies for the more recent crimes first, then the Croatians might find it in their hearts to forgive us? Would you apply the same logic to the Albanians? That the Albanians should apologize for 2004, and then we Serbs might present our apology for 1999? I hope you realize just how absurd your thinking is.
The fact is the Croatians as a whole have not faced up to the crimes committed during WWII in their names, while Serbia is working very hard at accepting their role in the wars of the 1990's.
Does anyone else find it rather amusing that there are many many signs in Dubrovnik pointing out all the roof tiles that were destroyed in the war, yet Jasenovac doesn't list any of the crimes that were committed there? That just about sums up the Croatian attitude.

To move on? Just a second. Why would we move on? This actually, serves us well, both Serbs and Croats. This way we will keep the distance from each other, rather then engage in some kind of closness that proved to be disasterous for both groups.
To forget and forgive? No way.
I don't want Croats to forgive Serbs anything, nor I will forgive anything to them.
It's a matter of practicallity. This way we will always stay apart. Far, far apart.

Massimo, I did not forget the Italians but I did forget to add them in my comment, thank you for reminding everyone that the Croatians want to live in a ethnically clean state, clean of Serbs, Italians, Jews, Roma. Yet they are on a fast track to EU membership, so much for the Eu's mantra about multiculturalism!

«The war was not only started by Serbs but by all nationalists..»

Jon, you may be right. They were all pulling on the blanket, and it was all toron in piece! As you say, 100 000 people died in this fatal exercice.

Yoy analysis is the honest truth. I thank you for exposing this in such a true manner. It helps me to be more objective. Hvala!

The Ball is clearly in Mesic's court (this is not a play on Wimbledon or anything).

Tadic has stepped up to the plate. If the Croats (leadership, intelligentsi etc. in particular) don't or won't then they'll be even more damned by history and historians. It's in their own interests.

The 'leaking' of WWII war dead numbers story unfortunately points towards the Croats learning nothing and throwing away an important chance to start, just start to try and have some normal relations.

If it doesn't happen, they can't blame the Serbs.

To the mods and readers, i apologize...
I meant to point out Serbs west of the Drina river..


I'm embarassed...

"And what about the 100's of thousands of Italians who were cleansed from their homelands in Croatia and Slovenia?
Millions of Italians do not forget."

The Italians deserve the land back that was taken by the Croats and Croatia. Croatia gained land, through Yugoslavia, which was never its in the first place.

Since Croatia was big in wanting out and wanting to destroy Yugoslavia, it should not keep the gains it received from Yugosavia.

Italian individuals are a warmer people who aren't cold-blooded killers.

As a matter of fact Croatian and other Jews who made it onto Italian-controlled Balkan territory in WWII were safe. No Balkan Jews were killed by Italians.

That is why some Chetnik cooperation with the Italians during WWII wasn't evil, as the Italians protected Jews and Serbs (to an extent).

after reading all of these comments made me think,doesnt matter what these politicians do and who says sorry first or second or whatever....it comes down to the people and what people remember...and what the serbs did to the croats will never be forgotten, serbs started the war, croats were defenseless, i still remember watching live footage of the serbian soldeirs leving serbia with their women throwing flowers on them and everyone singing basically to cross the river to croatia and to clean out the croats, it was serbs who attacked croats....as in krajina, where i was during the war as a child, all i know the serbs did not want to live under cro government so they rebelled and starting fighting being funded by yugo army....these might sound like simple facts but its the truth, croats did not want a war but had no choice but to defend their independence which they had every right to hold a national referenden and once croatia got independence then they were attacked...simple as that, rest of this i read is nonsense....and what happened WW2 yes ustase did commit crimes and who ever said that croatia never had to pay for what they did like the germans...why should croatia choose to, germany did not face what the ustasa and other croats faced the tragedy in BLEIBURG..who will apologise to croats for the tragedy in Bleiburg after the war (if u dont know what happened look it up)...and after how much torture ex ustase got from yugo government is something not even germany got....sad to see once again to make the serbs look like the victims, just imagine what would of happened to croats if croatia lost the war in 90's, thousands would be jailed and tortured just like after '45 just for defending their homeland...