Russia rejects draft Kosovo resolution

Waste of time. "the EU would take control of the province and supervise the transition of Kosovo towards independence." In other words why would the albanians want to negotiate away independence when it is gifted on a plate by the EU and USA. 120 days will achieve nothing, unless the US and EU can use the time to bring russia on-board in which case Kosovo will become officially recognised.

For goodness sake just chop off the caveat of 'predetermined outcome' and get on with some proper talks!

If Adolf Hitler was alive in this day and age, there would have been no World War 2. Instead, he would have used the America political lobby system, greased the palms of its willing politicians with money to represent his interests, and expanded the Third Reich via proxy UN resolutions. Why bother with wars if you can try to gain land by harnessing the powerful-yet-gullible to represent you interests? At least it is clear that international law is counting for nothing, as usual.

Another attempt by the US to keep a rent-free military base (Bondsteel) in south earst Europe at little cost to themselves. But, as the situation in Iraq in particular shows, what goes around comes around.

I agree with PB. At the end of the story independence is the natural solution.
EU should grant human and political rights preservation for ethnic minorities.

Kate,

Kosovar and Serbian politicans spoke for 13 months and didnt get anywere What makes you think 4 months with get our positions closer?

It does not make any sense. We will not give up independence and you will not give up your claim to sovreignty, so there is nothing to talk about.

Oh, yes,Moscow could support the ammended draft, if, after 120 days of talks an agreement is not reached, and in this case "a broad-based subsatantial autonomy will be automatically given to Kosovo in the framework of independent Serbia ".

Nick - Viktor K. answered your question.
The point is that Serbia legally owns Kosovo; this is a fact.

There are two outcomes of further talks (and the first round seems to have been pretty shallow and random during the time you mention):

Either substantial autonomy;
Or some sort of partition (which I am personally not in favour of - Serbia should not be forced to give up any territory).

I understand that this is your home (I assume) but this isn't just about Kosovo. It's about the right of the US to change European (and global) boundaries whenever they choose and hand over land as a fait accompli to reward violence or loyalty. This is the behaviour of an empire.

Partition or autonomy are truly the only 2 peaceful options as far as I can see. Nobody wants more war and unrest.

Wonderfull. Do you know what will happen in 4 months? They will come begging to the Russians 'Please don't veto'. To which the Russians will say NO. Then there will be another 4 month delay...and another..and another.....It's called denial. Condie and Georgie are in denial here. What part of Nyet do they not understand. Nyet, there will be no independence, deal with it.

Well if i was person who made decision i would say go ahead kosovo make your own deal don't mess with the Serbs. The albanian population would live separate from Serbs. Everyone will be allowed to move freely without hinderance to the will of the people. What you will get is this if this was brought to bear, The Serb enclaves would enjoy the full support of Belgrade to include providing power and funding for infrastructure. Pristina Budget will be for the Albanian part. Taxation will be paid to Belgrade to belgrade for the Serb enclaves and the albanian citizen will pay to pristina. The enclaves will be responsible for providing power and social services. Once this is establish everyone will live happy as good neighbors. This is what would work unless the power problems continue for the Albanian populace and the jobs do not materialize like promised. I am hoping for a better future for everyone.

Just split it. Peace.

It is clear that the Russians have not and will not back down - no surprise there!! Ahtisaari plan is dead in the water regarding the elements of state institution building.

Only those who wholeheartedly believed the words of Ceku without analysing the bigger picture are surprised. Now is the time for those who are surprised to really think through what is really the best for all in Serbia.

Reality is there will never be independence - the US would have done it in 1999 if they could and they have strung the ethnic-Albainians along. Mr Bush can say it all day long but why then has it not gone through is it was to be, why the funmbling suggestion of talks for 4 months but as long as you have accepted the outcome already??? Is this really logical or rational??? The reality is there never was going to be a resolution that dismembered a UN recognised state - there never could be and the West knew it but are looking for a way out and until they find it they will keep giving false hope!!!

The Serbian citizens of Albanian heritage in the province of Kosovo & Metohija need to take the opportunity of new talks now to get the best result possible for all in Serbia - on terms that are aregreable for all. Be brave and accept the state your in and don't be deceived by the "few" criminals and thugs who treat the province as a mafia fiefdom - they are the only ones who through the explotation have got rich in these last 8 years while the ordinary folk bearly survive on remitances from abroad.

Think long and hard about all the scenario's and way's that all of this can pan out and think about what realy is in your best interest!

Do you call Serbia's bluff to find out it actually is no bluff but a real & positive opportunity for reconciliation and trust to be gained and for all in Serbia to prosper
Or,
do you throw all that good away and go down the path of violenece, destruction, and continued isolation with no chance of a future for yourself and generations to come????

The choice is yours do you want win-win or lose-lose? I know I rant on but think this all through I am in a position where all along I have just stated the obvious as has the likes of people like Kate or Blag and many others here who have said all along - there is no legal mechanism for such an illogical and irrational objective as the dismemberment of a UN recognised state!

Surely you must now start to understand this for yourself. Think of the future and think about what was told in 1999 and compare it to where you are today! So again do you chose win-win or lose-lose?

Oh no...now we can call kosovo land of doves instead land of eagles!Who can the Kosovans be so stupid by beeing "piegoné" once again by the serbs and the others!

Russia has said a number of times that it only supports a resolution acceptable to BOTH sides. I cant see how that will ever happen. They are too far apart on the fundamental issue...independence. Above all, this is the core issue. Russia hasnt really come up with a solution that is acceptable to both sides. Everything else im sure can be negotiated.

I dont think there are many ppl (apart from obviously serbs) who believe that kosovo independence is good for them. Lets hope that they dont turn to russia instead of the west because whilst west makes mistakes, at least you are free to criticise them. Everything is there to see and free to be scrutinised. I that will be allowed of russia should it decide to become their puppet. Russia's performance in its mendling in neighbouring countries is enough to scare anyone. Just look at georgia and ukraine to see how russia treats "friends" who dont obey them.

Princip I really dont see how its a lose-lose situation in any case unless Russia abstains. Which wont happen and its so obvious.
Russia VETOs Kosovo declares indpendence and we have claim forever, while in the meantime US and whoever recognizes them will be robbing them blind with only a puppet regime in charge and absolutely no independence, AND absolutely less then they have now. As soon as the power scale changes and they r forced to pull out. Be it like Afghanistan that they get sick of US and EU, OR, the US goes into a recession.

@Dan
The NATO Pact's refusal to even consider partition gives a hint as to their real objective in occupying the province: plunder of Serbia's natural resources. Thing is, the mineral wealth lies to the north of the river Ibar (post partition border).

To quote former Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott "It was Yugoslavia's resistance to the broader trends of political and economic reform – not the Albanians – that best explains NATO's war."
All those lives were lost because of the Washington ruling elite's Neo Liberalist ideology which puts financial gain ahead of human life. Financial gain for a small clique eg. Dick Cheney and his Halliburton.

Enough with this claim that the K albanians have not made a compromise. They have given up independence, namely, they have agreed that the EU has the sovereignty over kosovo. Ahtisaari's plan envisages open-ended EU supervision. Albanians have shown they do not care about 'myths' and 'sovereignty.' They simply do not want to be rule by Serbs and understandably so. What is the compromise that SErbia is offering? More of the same! Albanians agree to be ruled by the EU! Isn't that enough concession? Serbs' offer is a joke: "Please trust us! We are good guys now! But, hey, no! We were never bad guys! Ethnic cleansing, rapes, murdes didn't happen! It is all NATO, VATICAN, FREE MASONS' conspiracy!" Wake up, because you don't hold the cards anymore!

“The Serbian citizens of Albanian heritage in the province of Kosovo & Metohija need to take the opportunity of new talks now to get the best result possible for all in Serbia - on terms that are aregreable for all. Be brave and accept the state your in and don't be deceived by the "few" criminals and thugs who treat the province as a mafia fiefdom - they are the only ones who through the explotation have got rich in these last 8 years while the ordinary folk bearly survive on remitances from abroad.”

Princip you really know how to offend us kosovar Albanian.
Let me tell you one thing what I and my fellow Albanians feel about being Serbian citizen: I’ll hang myself before I become “Serbian citizen”. While I read your fabricated paragraph Serbian soldiers came to mind killing rapping and mutilating Albanian women, kids and man. You are pinnacle of Serbian nationalism fully inspired by the Serbian Orthodox Church based on hate against “second class citizen” us Albanians.
If you think your country can massacre us at will and then we to get over it, then my “komsija” you are deeply mistaken. If you want to see first hand how we got over it then you are welcome to Prishtina and see it for yourself!

REALITY CHECK!!!its quite clear about the outcome now. russia stood by its stance, west now backing off. whew...whats next? violence? i think NATO will be in control since its not as big as afghanistan and not as chaotic as gaza.

The Kosovo issue has produced a number of facts everyone recognizes, even though they do not agree to:

1. Albanians want nothing short of independence.
2. Serbia is offering everything BUT independence.
3. Russia will not support any resolution unfavorable to Albanians and Serbs (read as just Serbs).
4. The US desperately wants Kosovo to be a non-trend setting event.

Many of us on both sides of the debate have already concluded a compromise is impossible, and the 120 day extension is nothing more than stalling for more useless talks until the inevitable is decided. Ahtisaari Plan involked, Russia/China vetoes, Pristina says "We're seceding", US is forced to recognize or not, and the Balkans plunge into instability.

All of this can still be avoided if compromise is seriously taken into account by both Washington and Moscow, and through them by Pristina and Belgrade.

Here is what I propose:

1. Kosovo should be given independence (pleases Albanians) but divided into a bi-zonal confederation between Serb and Albanian entities, similar to Cyprus (protects Serb interests). The Serb zone would include the three municipalities north of the Ibar, Strpce, Gracanica, and smaller areas such as monasteries in Pec, Decani, Devic, and Prizren, and villages such as the enclave in Orahovac and elsewhere.

2. Both zones operate within a federal system, centered in Pristina, but the Serb zone has a regional "headquarters" in North Mitrovica and also includes areas immediately surrounding key monasteries like those at Pec, Decani, Devic, and Prizren.

3. K Serbs are given dual citizenship in Kosovo and Serbia, while K Albanians are given dual citizenship between Kosovo and Albania. Both sides participate in Kosovo elections and can vote in the elections of their respective mother countries on issues that pertain to their well-being (clearly demarcated).

4. Within the Serb zone, a limited number of Serb soldiers are permitted to guard and protect towns, municipalities, and landmarks such as monasteries and churches. Albanian troops would likewise be given responsibility to secure their own zone. Both would operate under the executive auspices of NATO, which would have supreme command and overriding powers of both. Serb soldiers are only permitted to operate within their designated areas, and Albanians likewise. NATO troops can move about freely.

5. Displaced Serb and Albanian refugees are given full rights to return to Kosovo. They may settle wherever they wish, but for realistic purposes, they may be resettled in each respective confederate zone.

6. Federal administration is operated by the EU for an initial interim period in order to design and reorient education curriculum, allocate funds for reconstruction and investment, work to build stable democratic institutions, confidence-building, reconciliation, and in the same way as NATO, operate as an administrative override to government policy if it is perceived to favor one side of the other (sort of like Dayton)

7. NATO troops remain in Kosovo to ensure security for an indefinite period - at least one or two generation until animosities and distrust between both sides dies down.

8. To ensure this does not become a “precedent” as US officials fear, such a system should be clearly stated it will not be applied to areas like Presevo, Vojvodina, or even Republika Srpska.

This, I believe is true compromise - sacrifices that are made on both sides of the debate for the sake of moving forward. The sacrifices may be painful for both sides to make, but they are certainly not fatal. Protection of minorities as the Ahtisaari Plan currently envisions isn't a "compromise" as some say, that's an essential "obligation". Here, Albanians are assured that they will not be administered or controlled by Belgrade again, and the Serbs are given maximum institutional guarantees that their security and standards of living are protected and preserved. This also gives Serbs a greater hand than what they currently have, which is little to nothing now. They were planning on offering broad autonomy anyway, so that essentially means they don't want to control the Albanian parts, and they haven’t been able to control these parts since 1999. It also paints a realistic picture for the Albanians: you get your independence but you do not control what you can't control.

Serbia may even be willing to accept this in that it allows them to have a tangible presence in their designated areas and policy-makers in Belgrade can save face by claiming they preserved Serbian interests in Kosovo while leaving the Albanians to their own affairs. It also places Serbia closer within the EU orbit and allows them to strongly work with EU officials in ensuring the growth and sustainability of Kosovo in the years ahead. Albanians can rest assured their long-term goal of independence was finally realized too, and that a new state is administered by international institutions and recognized in the UN, making it all the more legal and binding.

I welcome comments and criticisms of this idea.

On the contrary John 2. As a foreign observer I can see that Belgrade is holding more cards now than it has had for 8 years while the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo are down to their last card and it's the Joker and it's got the face of George Bushe e Fushe Kruje on it.

Being neither a Serb nor an Albanian it strikes me as odd that any objective observer thinks that the Kosovo issue is worth antagonizing 12 million Serbs and 150 million Russians over in order to placate 6 million Illyrians.The intelligent people in the EU are coming to the realization that it is more important to implement existing resolutions which deal with standards before a political solution is called for.Nobody recognizes Taiwan as independent but has this kept the Taiwanese from living a good life and developing their economy to first world status?There are plenty of internationally recognized sovereign countries where the majority of people live in miserable conditions so why does anybody think that Kosovo would do better as a second Albania than as an EU protectorate?Cayman Islands,Hong Kong,Puerto Rico to name a few are not sovereign states but enjoy a high standard of living.New ideas must be developed to deal with these kinds of scenarios.

Cvele, kume,

in such a scenario that you rightfully analyse lose-lose does not imply that Serbia and the portion that it retains of Kosovo & Metohija (which would not be just north mitrovica) would not be a gain as such. However, when I say lose-lose it is from the best return possible thus it is in fact still a loss on the best solution which allows full territorial integrity of the Serbian state over all its territory and all it's citizens - irrespective of ethnicity. If all could appreciate the state they are in and collectivly work towards reconcilation, trust and making the best effort for Serbia as a whole - that would be the ultimate net return. All other scenarios are in fact a loss from this point.

You are right in many respects Serbia will progress but I am saying it will not be the optimum return and thus it is loss. I hope you appreciate the difference but if you would rather discuss this at length directly I would suggest you email me at principuk@hotmail.co.uk

In the 1990ies the then Yugoslavia became an obstacle for
1. the US Grand Strategy (see Brzezinski's The Grand Chessboard and Wolfowitz's PNAC-paper)
2. for the expansion of the EU
3. for the expansion of NATO
4. for the expansion of the economic philosophy based on the principles of the Washington Consensus. Peak Oil and upcoming US rivals are the driving factors behind the geostrategic scene: First priority of US foreign policy is the control of energy. The rest(humanitarian catastrophes etc.) is for the average mill dolly.
Here is the last sentence of the German Armed Forces Intelligence Office on March 22, 1999, two days before the air raids on Serbian civilian installations began: "There are still no indications for ethnic cleansing in Kosovo". We all remember how German politicians "transformed" that assessment, based on more than 2000 sources including the OSCE observers of the Kosovo Verification Mission.
Therefore, there is only one way to correct all the lies: For the relation between Serbia and her still province the rule of law has to apply.

Laki,

please don't take this the wrong way - this is not nationalism. For example I am a British citizen of serbian ethnicity - my family were bombed & a cousin lost their life by the British so please understand that I do not espouse nationalism!!! To do so would be for me to demand an independent state of West London for all ethnic Serbs seeing as they have family who have been mistreated by the (UK) state we are in and so on..... but then I guess this is not nationalistic because this is exactly what you are doing to Serbia!

Accept the state you are in and realise that the best way forward is through reconciliation and building trust not creating greater barriers and walls between all the people of Serbia.

The message is not nationalistic - I wish all the people of Serbia to learn to live together to make a better Serbia for ALL - irrespective of ethnicity! What is nationalist about that???

its quite clear about the outcome now. russia stood by its stance, west now backing off. whew...whats next? violence? i think NATO will be in control since its not as big as afghanistan and not as chaotic as gaza.
(tatiana stojkovic, Thursday

Suddenly, you pin all your hopes on NATO. NATO is demanding independence for Kosovo, if that doesn't happen, "turning a blind eye" is not a game that NATO hasn't played before -- not that they can stop a people wihtout hope of future... And, LEGALLY, since you've grown to like legality lately, you cannot enter Kosovo no matter what.

The hatred of Serbs because of what 'they' did is as wrong as the hatred of Albanians because of what 'they' did.

Yes there were rapists and murders - those should be imprisoned. However the majority of the citizens of all the Balkan communities were not part of the violence and would not want to be.

It is racist to say 'I hate all Serbs because some Serbs raped my mother', just as it is racist to say 'I hate all KAlbanians because they made my life unbearable and forced me to sell up and leave Kosovo'.

The fact is that the future is not about separation, it is about punishing the individuals that committed the crimes and then treating everyone else with respect (including taking account of their interests as well as your own).

Russia is taking a line which can lead to something acceptable to both sides.

Any side trying violence as a tool must be made to lose however.

Laki,

One thing that no one seems to mention here is that there will have to be a compromise over Kosovo.

Serbia and Kosovo's ethnic Albanian population has a just cause to lay claim to it.

Both Serbs and Albanians have mistreated each other (to put it mildly).

So the hardest pill to swallow will be compromise, something absolutely no one discusses here (not that I can remember anyway).

sadly, I think people like me will be ridden over and Kosovo will really miss out on an opportunity for peace

What a surprise. Eternal political limbo. If you want a better life. A suit, a car, a house, a job, a life, it is highly suggested that such irresponsible declarations should be left for central Africa.

Instead be with the Serbs and we will all benefit of being EU members. If you were to agree to autonomy we could all enter EU instantly. Just a though. Make a bridge of trust. We will work from our bank you from yours. Together we shall overcome.

Laki wrote:
"You are pinnacle of Serbian nationalism fully inspired by the Serbian Orthodox Church based on hate against “second class citizen” us Albanians"..

Great, so you turn it around, and NOW you're offending Orthodox Christians..
The Orthodox church inspires tolerance, faith, and God's justice..

Perhaps you should turn your attention to Communists and weekend drunks who pose as nationalists, and use the church as a pedestal to stand on...

Not the God-fearing people..

Kosovo could be either serbian or albanian land.It's impossible to be both serbian and albanian.Milosevic knew that,and he tried to expell all the albanians as the only solution to keep Kosovo for the serbs only.He lost in his gambeling,so logicaly the Kosovo is in albanians hand now.Whatever you think,say or feel is inutil dear serbian neighbors. So stop day dreaminig and be realistic for once,for the good of your children wake up and move on.Kosovo was never yours,so you have not lost anything in fact.

If Serbs accept to negociate under yesterday resollution, nothing will stop Independence after 4 months, if Serbs reject to negociate according to yesterday's plan, the Independence will come sooner. So, Serbia is not in a win situation by far.
Russia and Serbia will be the biggest losers of all at the end. Russia will be left with a record that it vetoed Resolution, while Serbia will lose Kosova forever.

Americans don't play games after all the options are exhausted.

Belgrade hold strong cards: international law, precedent, principle, rules, charters and treaties. What is in Albanian hands - a misguided, delusional belief that it is so powerful it can make up its own rules, create its own reality, defy the laws of physics, politics and nature with mere whims?

Thank you Russia-your stand of principle in the Balkans is winning you moral and mutual respect once again from Orthodox Serbs, and Russia can only benefit on a partnership based on principles, respect, and being right.

What observers here fail to understand is that Rusia is in a win-win situation REGARDLESS of how it votes on the Kosovo issue.Russia has NOTHING to lose if it vetoes the resolution nor does it have anything to lose if it supports Kosovo independence.If it vetoes then it can claim to be the champion of international law.If it supports it then its next step would obviously be to recognize Transdniester,Abhkazia,Ossetia,parts of Ukraine and Estonia with majority Russian populations and so on.No sane person in Europe is going to stop the Russians from doing this by threatening armed conflict considering the fact that Russia is the most powerful country in Europe.Enough rational western Europeans are coming to the conclusion that a new solution has to be found to placate enough people in the Balkans to prevent Kosovo from becoming a much more important problem than it should be.

Milan
Its really simple... they see bush and think he is a messiah. We see bush and... well. As does every nation on earth. Other then albania.

Mike,

It is interesting solution. I think you have right but you forgot that in serbia there is a lot of none serbs. Hungarians they would like to have same rights as serbs in Kosova, Albanians, Sanxhak should have same rights, east of serbia should have same rights they are Bulgarians. Macedonia is the same case. Bosna is same. Montenegro same. I think better solution if Kosova can not be independent in existing borders is:
North of Kosova can be part of serbia exept Gazivoda lake.
South of Serbia should be part of Kosova. Of course serbs and albanians would have rights in highest level as minority in both contries. But if we start with changing borders than Montenegro and macedonia would be involved on this too. Also Sanxhak has to go to Kosova or Bisna, Vojvodina has to go to Hungary and esat of serbia has to go to Bulgaria. How about this solution?

Finaly Russians realized something related to Balkans. Perhaps this can be "Knin Syndrom". Since Serbs ruled over Knin, Serbia ha argument for any negotiations. After Tudjman occupied Knin, Serbia became exposed to any pressure including Kosovo. That means, who knows what Russian position in the future can be if Serbia will be defeated nowadays. Obviously Russian realized that their last defence is Serbia. Otervise they are going to be exposed to their final defeat.

"So the hardest pill to swallow will be compromise, something absolutely no one discusses here (not that I can remember anyway). (Djuro UK, Thursday, 21 June, 2007, 17:57)"
Djuro, I've always supported partition based on fair compromise, and I do believe that truly is a compromise between the two positions.
Mike, what you propose sounds a lot like what happened in Bosnia. I do think it has the possibility to be a better solution then what Ahtisaari has to offer, but I also strongly feel partition has a good chance at being a workable solution. I wouldn't support your solution, but neither would I strongly oppose it. It definitely is worth discussing.
Beni, I strongly support a regional solution, both Albanians and Serbians would benefit greatly by an all inclusive evaluation of the Right to Self Determination for both our peoples. The areas we'd lose are not as important to our people as Krajina and RS, so it’s a good deal. Very good for your people as well. We really shouldn't let the International Community divide us, we have common interests that we should pursue.
Personally, I think it would be very funny if both the Kosovar government and Serbia presented this as an option. Of course it would never find support in the EU, and Croatia and Bosnia would be very unhappy.
However, this quote is highly interesting;
"Meanwhile, Dragan Covic, president of the main Croatian party in Bosnia, the Croatian democratic union, said that all Croatian parties will propose this week that Bosnia be divided into three ethnic entities…"
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Politics&loid=8.0.427089848&par=0
If Serbs and Albanians can come to a peaceful agreement on Kosovo, it looks like we may be able to come to a real agreement in Bosnia with the Croats.
Partition Kosovo, partition Bosnia, forget Krajina, and we might just have a real win for Serbian politicians and possibly the region as a whole. It only really leaves Macedonia unresolved, but Albanians will very quickly be a majority there, so it will work itself out in time.

Beni...

Why not!
To those that speak that the partition of kosova is a good solution,i can say that i agree,but the same parameter must be applyed in south serbia.

Luciano,

the US stuck to thier sui generis argument and said that if the vote goes through the UN Russia can not apply it to other places.

So if Russia veto's it stands up for international law but then if the US act illegally in recognising an illegal unilateral declaration it removes 'sui generis' for anywhere else - russians have made it clear they will veto because this is win-win for them and lose-lose for the US. The US need to come to terms with this reality but bumbling George Dumbya Bush should have thought before he spoke the other weekend. The Russians now have all to gain with the veto.

normally posters like "murik" who in all seriousness write that Kosovo was never serbian, shouldn´t be worth getting an answer.
but since perhaps there is one or another western-european reader here, I will not stop to invalidate that nonsense, whenever it occurs.

the opposite is actually the truth. Kosovo was never albanian in it´s entire history.
one of the popular lies is that those orthodox churches were "albanian before", but however they are all built in the byzantine-serbian style...

and when I asked the Albanians several times "why are you burning them down then, if they were albanian before?" they stay calm...
that´s the way Albanians are arguing when it is about Kosovo´s history.

Albanians, I know, you are desperate, but even in your society it is considered as bad to take away something that is not yours.
so, just tell us, why are you so eager to grab that land that in fact never was yours?

Mike,

Interesting comment and very resonable solutions. Unfortunately we live in a place where the further away from each other we are the better for everybody.

Although i find most of your points acceptable i seriously doubt the level to which they can be properly implemented and observed.

My opinion is that we should try to simplify things as much as we can (although that may sometimes lead to radical solutions) and the solution your presented above ALTHOUGH REASONABLE creates a lot of room for political manouvering and possible missinterpreation.

If i had to chose betwen your solution and partition i would go for partition.

Jochen Scholz, thank you, it is enlightening to see that there are some people who see beyond indoctrination, I was losing hope until I read your post. Pijetro, writes “the Orthodox church inspires tolerance” is one more insightful comment for which the Albanians will accuse Pietro of Serbophilia . I live in Western Canada and I see intolerance taught every day in private Muslim and Catholic schools in British Columbia. It is sad that children are indoctrinated to hate others. This happens by the act of separation not necessarily by intent. As soon as you establish separate whatever you establish intolerance and racism

I like Mike's comments - not everything that he says, but he seems to understand Albanian concerns. When we hear "territorial integrity" we imagine another Serb campaign against Albanians, 5 or 50 or 200 years from now. Mike seems to understand this and he offers a compromise that includes banning Serbian institutions from meddling in Albanians' lives ever again (that's called independence). This is a good start. I and others like me have no desire to hurt Serbs - we would only be aggressive if our own or our childrens' existence were threatened.

Kosovo leaders and people of Kosovo ought to show their discontent now on the streets, schools, parks, everywhere. America has done all it can. There is just so much they can do. Though EU countries have shown some support publically, it's their dilemma that has emboldened Russians and brought the fate of 2 million Kosovars to a standstill.

It's virtually impossible to see or imagine Russia vote for Ahtisari's proposal. If there is nothing positive coming in the next summit between Bush and Putin, it's very premature for Kosovo leaders to expect something positive coming from Russians in the near future. It appears to me that Sejdiu and Cheku have remained passive throughout the year waiting for miracles. Though miracles transpire at the right time and moment, there is no historical account that they have ever rewarded a group of people with a brand new country.

And this group happen to be 2 million Albanians waiting in vain.

So, I believe it's the right time to give Albin Kurti a chance!

maybe danial, but the US must be stopped at some point. Don't you agree? they just go into any country they want, with really no direct threat to the US. and do their dirty work. 3500 + American troops dead, and God knows how many Iraqi's. that is USA's justice. their way of helping the world. in my humble opinion, just stay in DC and don't help anyone, the world will be better off.

Danial, just look and see how the US and the EU treat countries that don't obey them? Ask clinton.

One thing some here seem to miss is that the Albanians of Kosovo would rather perish than be under Serbia. And I don't see another try at ethnic cleansing by Serbia being successful any time soon.

laki, albanians killed many serbs during wwII and yet, we were all able to live side-by-side after that. how come? belgrade does not want to rule albanians, they are offering broad autonomy, rule yourselves for God's sake, it's about time. don't you get it? you just cannot have serbian land. it belongs to serbia. serbia has a heritage there, albanians do not. can you name one event of significance that bonds kosovo to albanians? NO!

john, why all the anger pal? we are here just to discuss. no one is basing their faith in the NATO, they are the accomplices that sided with clinton in his criminal bombing of a sovereign European nation. how much more criminal can you get? please read the following - this is the reality that is exposing clinton and his evil doings. the truth will ALWAYS surface. it is God's law.

From a Mass. Newspaper 6/07

In late March not long ago the United States attacked a sovereign country which posed no imminent threat to U.S. national security. After numerous threats and some coercive diplomacy, the U.S and its selected allies bypassed the United Nations to embark on a war of aggression in violation of international law.

Thousands of American soldiers remain in this “liberated” area, which has been the scene of extreme violence. I am not referring to the invasion and occupation of Iraq, but to NATO's 1999 bombing campaign against Yugoslavia and the subsequent occupation of Kosovo.

NATOs 1999 attack on Yugoslavia was presented to the public as a “humanitarian intervention” undertaken to stop Serbian atrocities against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. It was said that NATO had no choice but to bomb after Yugoslavia rejected the Rambouillet Accords for peace. In fact, the Clinton administration did not want a diplomatic solution in Kosovo any more than the Bush administration wanted a diplomatic solution in Iraq. The Rambouillet Accords gave NATO personnel immunity from arrest, investigation or detention by Yugoslavian authorities, and free and unrestricted passage and unimpeded access throughout Yugoslavia, including associated airspace and territorial waters. Since signing such a document would effectively end the country’s sovereignty, the Yugoslav government refused to sign. NATO started bombing a few weeks later on March 24, 1999.

The American public was bombarded with lies and hysterical allegations. Serbian forces were said to be carrying out "genocide" against the Albanian population of Kosovo while NATO bombed civilian targets all over Yugoslavia (including a convoy of Albanian refugees).

After NATO troops moved into Kosovo, hundreds of forensic experts from 17 countries came to look for evidence of this genocide. They could not find it. The International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia charged with investigating supposed mass graves put the number of bodies actually discovered at only a fraction of the tens of thousands rumored by official sources. By no means were all these the bodies of Albanian victims of Serbian forces. Journalist John Laughland noted in The Spectator: In the vast majority of cases, the bodies were buried in individual, not mass graves. Second, the Tribunal will not say what sex or age the alleged victims are, let alone what nationality.

What were the true goals of NATO's intervention? Profits and the pursuit of geopolitical interests, the goals of every war. Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown and Root was contracted to build the largest U.S. army base camp since Vietnam, Camp Bondsteel (complete with fast food outlets, a shopping center and a Laura Bush Center for Education, with college courses) in Kosovo. Construction plans for Bondsteel were underway well before the first bombs were dropped. Halliburton is also part of the Albanian-Macedonian-Bulgarian oil consortium, a group vying for control of planned oil pipelines for transporting Caspian oil from the Black Sea into Western Europe and elsewhere.

While the U.S. attack on Iraq has been exposed as an act of aggression, NATO’s claims of bombing Yugoslavia for "human rights"remain virtually unchallenged. If we are truly interested in taking a stand against war, we must reexamine the Clinton years and the damaging legacy of humanitarian intervention.

if you want to get a hint of what the problem is with the balkans, just read murik's comment. this exists on all ethnic lines in the balkans but, that is the poison that keeps us primitive.

wow beni, you are all over the place. you forgot my neighborhood in newark, we should get independence fron jersey. are you for real? the world does not work that way. you have to respect your current boudries. that's why they are there. what do you want to create in the world, a million little statelets? ain't gonna happen, because the big boys want their taxes, and the little boys ( you and me) gotta pay them. at days end, eu, us, the nato gonna look at what is most beneficial for them, and we are goona like it. end of story. you wanna shoot some more guns, go ahead but, this time it's gonna come right back at you.

just let the powers that be, do their thing, and learn to love your neighbors and let your anger go.

luciano: "it strikes me as odd that any objective observer thinks that the Kosovo issue is worth antagonizing 12 million Serbs and 150 million Russians over in order to placate 6 million Illyrians."

I doubt that out of 150 mil Russians, any significant number will agonize over the fact that Kosovo becomes independent or not. Most likely your average Russian doesn't have any idea where Kosovo is on the map, let alone care about its existence and maybe only a small handful follow what's going on, most likely out of curiosity.

The majority of the Serbs have never been in Kosovo, nor has any interest in visiting. Why is that? Maybe they don't give a damn either?
The only ones that really care and whose lives will be directly affected, are the ones that live day-to-day on the ground, and any status resolution should take first and foremost their desires and their interests into account. Kosovan Albanians, Serbs, Turks, Roma, Bosniaks etc., those should be really the ones to decide what should happen with their lives. To the rest is purely a matter of academic curiosity, or maybe a matter of online entertainment. And it's really a shame that the issue has become a power play between superpowers, that try to find a balance between them without any regard whatsoever for the lives of the people they are affecting. This is no different of what the Great Powers of the 19th century did, when they tried to please each other, by slicing and dicing the Balkans in any way it was convenient for their momentary interests. What it produced though is a century of hatred, misery and bloodshed. It's a crying shame that is being repeated over again in this time and age, and almost identically.

The solution to this problem should be very easy really, is not even a new solution and anywhere tried has given good and pacifying results. Have a referendum in the province and let the people decide what they want to do with their lives. Respect their decision and then focus your energies to bring about true reconciliation amongst different groups. Give justice to those who deserve it and let the rest of them live in peace.

How hard is that?

To: John 2

Trust me, NATO will not turn a blind eye this time if Albanins start violence. They will crush the violence. What does it take to make the Albanins understand its over. In the end, Serbia had the LAW and the Russians on their side which proved more powerful then the US,EU and NATO.

Americans don't play games after all the options are exhausted.
(Destan Belaxhia, Thursday, 21 June, 2007, 18:42)

American is powerless, or else you would have had your independence by now. And yes this is a game and guess what!!! You are the star of the game, or have you not realized this yet. What America is doing is cruel to the Albanins more so then the Serbians because legally Kosovo remains part of Serbia. You people need to open your eyes and see what is really happening here, its a game of politics between Russia and the USA and by the way don't blame everything on the Russians because if the Russians did not step into this then it would have been China, either way the situation would have been the same. What America is doing is very counter productive, they should be encouraging you people to get the widest possible autonomy available and be done with this nonsense. America has only one way out of this mess and that is if the Albanians get violent, then they can say "we tried to help you" but you bit the hand that fed you. I live in Canada and I know American politics a lot better then some Kosovo Albanian, so trust me when I say this, America is not your friend, just ask any Iraq citizen.

What the US and this pro-albanian website doesn't understand is that Russia is using the Kosovo issue to stick it to the US for "winning the Cold War". Bush thinks he can bribe Putin to betray Serbia. Bush also thinks he can create a western-style democracy in Iraq. 3/4 of America thinks Bush has gone insane.

Beni, I'm glad to know that at least we share the same general sentiment on minority rights and trying to make sure all communities have equal rights preserved. Yet there are a few things I disagree with in your response.

I do not believe we should carve up Serbia any more. The only issue on the table for negotiation is Kosovo, and that is what should stay. Presevo, Sandzak and Vojvodina are internationally recognized parts of Serbia. I'm confused by some of the things you say. First you say "if we start with changing borders than Montenegro and macedonia would be involved on this too". You're right on this, but why then do you suggest Vojvodina should go to Hungary? That is quite generous since Hungarians comprise only 14% of the total population. Why bring up Sandzak, or Presevo, or even region with Bulgarians? One of the points I mentioned in my proposed compromise is that the Kosovo solution of one state, two confederate zones is that is guaranteed to Serbia that no other region will be the same (see #8).

I do fully agree with you that all minorities should be given clear and legal rights. This includes Albanians in Presevo, Hungarians in Vojvodina, and Serbs in Kosovo. But if we are going to give land to other countries because people of that ethnicity live there, we need to carve up Bosnia, Montenegro, and Albania as well - not just Serbia.

So if you think it's bad to "change borders", first, why change the borders with Kosovo? Second, if Kosovo is the only region up for consideration, let's leave it at that, but make Kosovo institutionally work for both communities.

It is not enough only to reject every draft Resolution...
And finaly, are Russia and Serbia asking and thinking about K-Serbs, they might have more concrete and constructive approach?! Instead of BIG BROTHERS - UN, EU and Kosovo thought about K-Serbs and offered best standards for minorities even in Europe, which standards are already functioning in every day life in Kosovo...
Final 120 days are fair enough for considering Russia and Serbia and Kosovo is showing great prudence and political discretion in this historical moment. Independence is main moment in history of one country and nation and it doesn't make any sence to measure it with the days, months and even some reasonable years. It is a process and coming back every time to a time limits is only provocation towards Kosovars and their patience... Independence is final product of this process and relevant factors should be very aware about the moment and importance of it...

Dear posters-

Please provide links to copyrighted articles instead of copy and pasting them to your comments.

Thank you,

B92

So, I believe it's the right time to give Albin Kurti a chance!
(Albert Lehman, Friday, 22 June, 2007, 03:21)

Albert how can I get a CIA application for employment? You should know since it sounds like you work for them, or perhaps in your mind you think you work for them?
I cannot believe that B92 has posted your comments, its outrageous that someone is actually using this forum to publicly encourage violence! B92 will you now not put up my comments?

Waste of time. "the EU would take control of the province and supervise the transition of Kosovo towards independence." In other words why would the albanians want to negotiate away independence when it is gifted on a plate by the EU and USA. 120 days will achieve nothing, unless the US and EU can use the time to bring russia on-board in which case Kosovo will become officially recognised.

For goodness sake just chop off the caveat of 'predetermined outcome' and get on with some proper talks!

If Adolf Hitler was alive in this day and age, there would have been no World War 2. Instead, he would have used the America political lobby system, greased the palms of its willing politicians with money to represent his interests, and expanded the Third Reich via proxy UN resolutions. Why bother with wars if you can try to gain land by harnessing the powerful-yet-gullible to represent you interests? At least it is clear that international law is counting for nothing, as usual.

Another attempt by the US to keep a rent-free military base (Bondsteel) in south earst Europe at little cost to themselves. But, as the situation in Iraq in particular shows, what goes around comes around.

I agree with PB. At the end of the story independence is the natural solution.
EU should grant human and political rights preservation for ethnic minorities.

Kate,

Kosovar and Serbian politicans spoke for 13 months and didnt get anywere What makes you think 4 months with get our positions closer?

It does not make any sense. We will not give up independence and you will not give up your claim to sovreignty, so there is nothing to talk about.

Oh, yes,Moscow could support the ammended draft, if, after 120 days of talks an agreement is not reached, and in this case "a broad-based subsatantial autonomy will be automatically given to Kosovo in the framework of independent Serbia ".

Nick - Viktor K. answered your question.
The point is that Serbia legally owns Kosovo; this is a fact.

There are two outcomes of further talks (and the first round seems to have been pretty shallow and random during the time you mention):

Either substantial autonomy;
Or some sort of partition (which I am personally not in favour of - Serbia should not be forced to give up any territory).

I understand that this is your home (I assume) but this isn't just about Kosovo. It's about the right of the US to change European (and global) boundaries whenever they choose and hand over land as a fait accompli to reward violence or loyalty. This is the behaviour of an empire.

Partition or autonomy are truly the only 2 peaceful options as far as I can see. Nobody wants more war and unrest.

Wonderfull. Do you know what will happen in 4 months? They will come begging to the Russians 'Please don't veto'. To which the Russians will say NO. Then there will be another 4 month delay...and another..and another.....It's called denial. Condie and Georgie are in denial here. What part of Nyet do they not understand. Nyet, there will be no independence, deal with it.

Well if i was person who made decision i would say go ahead kosovo make your own deal don't mess with the Serbs. The albanian population would live separate from Serbs. Everyone will be allowed to move freely without hinderance to the will of the people. What you will get is this if this was brought to bear, The Serb enclaves would enjoy the full support of Belgrade to include providing power and funding for infrastructure. Pristina Budget will be for the Albanian part. Taxation will be paid to Belgrade to belgrade for the Serb enclaves and the albanian citizen will pay to pristina. The enclaves will be responsible for providing power and social services. Once this is establish everyone will live happy as good neighbors. This is what would work unless the power problems continue for the Albanian populace and the jobs do not materialize like promised. I am hoping for a better future for everyone.

Just split it. Peace.

It is clear that the Russians have not and will not back down - no surprise there!! Ahtisaari plan is dead in the water regarding the elements of state institution building.

Only those who wholeheartedly believed the words of Ceku without analysing the bigger picture are surprised. Now is the time for those who are surprised to really think through what is really the best for all in Serbia.

Reality is there will never be independence - the US would have done it in 1999 if they could and they have strung the ethnic-Albainians along. Mr Bush can say it all day long but why then has it not gone through is it was to be, why the funmbling suggestion of talks for 4 months but as long as you have accepted the outcome already??? Is this really logical or rational??? The reality is there never was going to be a resolution that dismembered a UN recognised state - there never could be and the West knew it but are looking for a way out and until they find it they will keep giving false hope!!!

The Serbian citizens of Albanian heritage in the province of Kosovo & Metohija need to take the opportunity of new talks now to get the best result possible for all in Serbia - on terms that are aregreable for all. Be brave and accept the state your in and don't be deceived by the "few" criminals and thugs who treat the province as a mafia fiefdom - they are the only ones who through the explotation have got rich in these last 8 years while the ordinary folk bearly survive on remitances from abroad.

Think long and hard about all the scenario's and way's that all of this can pan out and think about what realy is in your best interest!

Do you call Serbia's bluff to find out it actually is no bluff but a real & positive opportunity for reconciliation and trust to be gained and for all in Serbia to prosper
Or,
do you throw all that good away and go down the path of violenece, destruction, and continued isolation with no chance of a future for yourself and generations to come????

The choice is yours do you want win-win or lose-lose? I know I rant on but think this all through I am in a position where all along I have just stated the obvious as has the likes of people like Kate or Blag and many others here who have said all along - there is no legal mechanism for such an illogical and irrational objective as the dismemberment of a UN recognised state!

Surely you must now start to understand this for yourself. Think of the future and think about what was told in 1999 and compare it to where you are today! So again do you chose win-win or lose-lose?

Oh no...now we can call kosovo land of doves instead land of eagles!Who can the Kosovans be so stupid by beeing "piegoné" once again by the serbs and the others!

Russia has said a number of times that it only supports a resolution acceptable to BOTH sides. I cant see how that will ever happen. They are too far apart on the fundamental issue...independence. Above all, this is the core issue. Russia hasnt really come up with a solution that is acceptable to both sides. Everything else im sure can be negotiated.

I dont think there are many ppl (apart from obviously serbs) who believe that kosovo independence is good for them. Lets hope that they dont turn to russia instead of the west because whilst west makes mistakes, at least you are free to criticise them. Everything is there to see and free to be scrutinised. I that will be allowed of russia should it decide to become their puppet. Russia's performance in its mendling in neighbouring countries is enough to scare anyone. Just look at georgia and ukraine to see how russia treats "friends" who dont obey them.

Princip I really dont see how its a lose-lose situation in any case unless Russia abstains. Which wont happen and its so obvious.
Russia VETOs Kosovo declares indpendence and we have claim forever, while in the meantime US and whoever recognizes them will be robbing them blind with only a puppet regime in charge and absolutely no independence, AND absolutely less then they have now. As soon as the power scale changes and they r forced to pull out. Be it like Afghanistan that they get sick of US and EU, OR, the US goes into a recession.

@Dan
The NATO Pact's refusal to even consider partition gives a hint as to their real objective in occupying the province: plunder of Serbia's natural resources. Thing is, the mineral wealth lies to the north of the river Ibar (post partition border).

To quote former Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott "It was Yugoslavia's resistance to the broader trends of political and economic reform – not the Albanians – that best explains NATO's war."
All those lives were lost because of the Washington ruling elite's Neo Liberalist ideology which puts financial gain ahead of human life. Financial gain for a small clique eg. Dick Cheney and his Halliburton.

Enough with this claim that the K albanians have not made a compromise. They have given up independence, namely, they have agreed that the EU has the sovereignty over kosovo. Ahtisaari's plan envisages open-ended EU supervision. Albanians have shown they do not care about 'myths' and 'sovereignty.' They simply do not want to be rule by Serbs and understandably so. What is the compromise that SErbia is offering? More of the same! Albanians agree to be ruled by the EU! Isn't that enough concession? Serbs' offer is a joke: "Please trust us! We are good guys now! But, hey, no! We were never bad guys! Ethnic cleansing, rapes, murdes didn't happen! It is all NATO, VATICAN, FREE MASONS' conspiracy!" Wake up, because you don't hold the cards anymore!

“The Serbian citizens of Albanian heritage in the province of Kosovo & Metohija need to take the opportunity of new talks now to get the best result possible for all in Serbia - on terms that are aregreable for all. Be brave and accept the state your in and don't be deceived by the "few" criminals and thugs who treat the province as a mafia fiefdom - they are the only ones who through the explotation have got rich in these last 8 years while the ordinary folk bearly survive on remitances from abroad.”

Princip you really know how to offend us kosovar Albanian.
Let me tell you one thing what I and my fellow Albanians feel about being Serbian citizen: I’ll hang myself before I become “Serbian citizen”. While I read your fabricated paragraph Serbian soldiers came to mind killing rapping and mutilating Albanian women, kids and man. You are pinnacle of Serbian nationalism fully inspired by the Serbian Orthodox Church based on hate against “second class citizen” us Albanians.
If you think your country can massacre us at will and then we to get over it, then my “komsija” you are deeply mistaken. If you want to see first hand how we got over it then you are welcome to Prishtina and see it for yourself!

REALITY CHECK!!!its quite clear about the outcome now. russia stood by its stance, west now backing off. whew...whats next? violence? i think NATO will be in control since its not as big as afghanistan and not as chaotic as gaza.

The Kosovo issue has produced a number of facts everyone recognizes, even though they do not agree to:

1. Albanians want nothing short of independence.
2. Serbia is offering everything BUT independence.
3. Russia will not support any resolution unfavorable to Albanians and Serbs (read as just Serbs).
4. The US desperately wants Kosovo to be a non-trend setting event.

Many of us on both sides of the debate have already concluded a compromise is impossible, and the 120 day extension is nothing more than stalling for more useless talks until the inevitable is decided. Ahtisaari Plan involked, Russia/China vetoes, Pristina says "We're seceding", US is forced to recognize or not, and the Balkans plunge into instability.

All of this can still be avoided if compromise is seriously taken into account by both Washington and Moscow, and through them by Pristina and Belgrade.

Here is what I propose:

1. Kosovo should be given independence (pleases Albanians) but divided into a bi-zonal confederation between Serb and Albanian entities, similar to Cyprus (protects Serb interests). The Serb zone would include the three municipalities north of the Ibar, Strpce, Gracanica, and smaller areas such as monasteries in Pec, Decani, Devic, and Prizren, and villages such as the enclave in Orahovac and elsewhere.

2. Both zones operate within a federal system, centered in Pristina, but the Serb zone has a regional "headquarters" in North Mitrovica and also includes areas immediately surrounding key monasteries like those at Pec, Decani, Devic, and Prizren.

3. K Serbs are given dual citizenship in Kosovo and Serbia, while K Albanians are given dual citizenship between Kosovo and Albania. Both sides participate in Kosovo elections and can vote in the elections of their respective mother countries on issues that pertain to their well-being (clearly demarcated).

4. Within the Serb zone, a limited number of Serb soldiers are permitted to guard and protect towns, municipalities, and landmarks such as monasteries and churches. Albanian troops would likewise be given responsibility to secure their own zone. Both would operate under the executive auspices of NATO, which would have supreme command and overriding powers of both. Serb soldiers are only permitted to operate within their designated areas, and Albanians likewise. NATO troops can move about freely.

5. Displaced Serb and Albanian refugees are given full rights to return to Kosovo. They may settle wherever they wish, but for realistic purposes, they may be resettled in each respective confederate zone.

6. Federal administration is operated by the EU for an initial interim period in order to design and reorient education curriculum, allocate funds for reconstruction and investment, work to build stable democratic institutions, confidence-building, reconciliation, and in the same way as NATO, operate as an administrative override to government policy if it is perceived to favor one side of the other (sort of like Dayton)

7. NATO troops remain in Kosovo to ensure security for an indefinite period - at least one or two generation until animosities and distrust between both sides dies down.

8. To ensure this does not become a “precedent” as US officials fear, such a system should be clearly stated it will not be applied to areas like Presevo, Vojvodina, or even Republika Srpska.

This, I believe is true compromise - sacrifices that are made on both sides of the debate for the sake of moving forward. The sacrifices may be painful for both sides to make, but they are certainly not fatal. Protection of minorities as the Ahtisaari Plan currently envisions isn't a "compromise" as some say, that's an essential "obligation". Here, Albanians are assured that they will not be administered or controlled by Belgrade again, and the Serbs are given maximum institutional guarantees that their security and standards of living are protected and preserved. This also gives Serbs a greater hand than what they currently have, which is little to nothing now. They were planning on offering broad autonomy anyway, so that essentially means they don't want to control the Albanian parts, and they haven’t been able to control these parts since 1999. It also paints a realistic picture for the Albanians: you get your independence but you do not control what you can't control.

Serbia may even be willing to accept this in that it allows them to have a tangible presence in their designated areas and policy-makers in Belgrade can save face by claiming they preserved Serbian interests in Kosovo while leaving the Albanians to their own affairs. It also places Serbia closer within the EU orbit and allows them to strongly work with EU officials in ensuring the growth and sustainability of Kosovo in the years ahead. Albanians can rest assured their long-term goal of independence was finally realized too, and that a new state is administered by international institutions and recognized in the UN, making it all the more legal and binding.

I welcome comments and criticisms of this idea.

On the contrary John 2. As a foreign observer I can see that Belgrade is holding more cards now than it has had for 8 years while the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo are down to their last card and it's the Joker and it's got the face of George Bushe e Fushe Kruje on it.

Being neither a Serb nor an Albanian it strikes me as odd that any objective observer thinks that the Kosovo issue is worth antagonizing 12 million Serbs and 150 million Russians over in order to placate 6 million Illyrians.The intelligent people in the EU are coming to the realization that it is more important to implement existing resolutions which deal with standards before a political solution is called for.Nobody recognizes Taiwan as independent but has this kept the Taiwanese from living a good life and developing their economy to first world status?There are plenty of internationally recognized sovereign countries where the majority of people live in miserable conditions so why does anybody think that Kosovo would do better as a second Albania than as an EU protectorate?Cayman Islands,Hong Kong,Puerto Rico to name a few are not sovereign states but enjoy a high standard of living.New ideas must be developed to deal with these kinds of scenarios.

Cvele, kume,

in such a scenario that you rightfully analyse lose-lose does not imply that Serbia and the portion that it retains of Kosovo & Metohija (which would not be just north mitrovica) would not be a gain as such. However, when I say lose-lose it is from the best return possible thus it is in fact still a loss on the best solution which allows full territorial integrity of the Serbian state over all its territory and all it's citizens - irrespective of ethnicity. If all could appreciate the state they are in and collectivly work towards reconcilation, trust and making the best effort for Serbia as a whole - that would be the ultimate net return. All other scenarios are in fact a loss from this point.

You are right in many respects Serbia will progress but I am saying it will not be the optimum return and thus it is loss. I hope you appreciate the difference but if you would rather discuss this at length directly I would suggest you email me at principuk@hotmail.co.uk

In the 1990ies the then Yugoslavia became an obstacle for
1. the US Grand Strategy (see Brzezinski's The Grand Chessboard and Wolfowitz's PNAC-paper)
2. for the expansion of the EU
3. for the expansion of NATO
4. for the expansion of the economic philosophy based on the principles of the Washington Consensus. Peak Oil and upcoming US rivals are the driving factors behind the geostrategic scene: First priority of US foreign policy is the control of energy. The rest(humanitarian catastrophes etc.) is for the average mill dolly.
Here is the last sentence of the German Armed Forces Intelligence Office on March 22, 1999, two days before the air raids on Serbian civilian installations began: "There are still no indications for ethnic cleansing in Kosovo". We all remember how German politicians "transformed" that assessment, based on more than 2000 sources including the OSCE observers of the Kosovo Verification Mission.
Therefore, there is only one way to correct all the lies: For the relation between Serbia and her still province the rule of law has to apply.

Laki,

please don't take this the wrong way - this is not nationalism. For example I am a British citizen of serbian ethnicity - my family were bombed & a cousin lost their life by the British so please understand that I do not espouse nationalism!!! To do so would be for me to demand an independent state of West London for all ethnic Serbs seeing as they have family who have been mistreated by the (UK) state we are in and so on..... but then I guess this is not nationalistic because this is exactly what you are doing to Serbia!

Accept the state you are in and realise that the best way forward is through reconciliation and building trust not creating greater barriers and walls between all the people of Serbia.

The message is not nationalistic - I wish all the people of Serbia to learn to live together to make a better Serbia for ALL - irrespective of ethnicity! What is nationalist about that???

its quite clear about the outcome now. russia stood by its stance, west now backing off. whew...whats next? violence? i think NATO will be in control since its not as big as afghanistan and not as chaotic as gaza.
(tatiana stojkovic, Thursday

Suddenly, you pin all your hopes on NATO. NATO is demanding independence for Kosovo, if that doesn't happen, "turning a blind eye" is not a game that NATO hasn't played before -- not that they can stop a people wihtout hope of future... And, LEGALLY, since you've grown to like legality lately, you cannot enter Kosovo no matter what.

The hatred of Serbs because of what 'they' did is as wrong as the hatred of Albanians because of what 'they' did.

Yes there were rapists and murders - those should be imprisoned. However the majority of the citizens of all the Balkan communities were not part of the violence and would not want to be.

It is racist to say 'I hate all Serbs because some Serbs raped my mother', just as it is racist to say 'I hate all KAlbanians because they made my life unbearable and forced me to sell up and leave Kosovo'.

The fact is that the future is not about separation, it is about punishing the individuals that committed the crimes and then treating everyone else with respect (including taking account of their interests as well as your own).

Russia is taking a line which can lead to something acceptable to both sides.

Any side trying violence as a tool must be made to lose however.

Laki,

One thing that no one seems to mention here is that there will have to be a compromise over Kosovo.

Serbia and Kosovo's ethnic Albanian population has a just cause to lay claim to it.

Both Serbs and Albanians have mistreated each other (to put it mildly).

So the hardest pill to swallow will be compromise, something absolutely no one discusses here (not that I can remember anyway).

sadly, I think people like me will be ridden over and Kosovo will really miss out on an opportunity for peace

What a surprise. Eternal political limbo. If you want a better life. A suit, a car, a house, a job, a life, it is highly suggested that such irresponsible declarations should be left for central Africa.

Instead be with the Serbs and we will all benefit of being EU members. If you were to agree to autonomy we could all enter EU instantly. Just a though. Make a bridge of trust. We will work from our bank you from yours. Together we shall overcome.

Laki wrote:
"You are pinnacle of Serbian nationalism fully inspired by the Serbian Orthodox Church based on hate against “second class citizen” us Albanians"..

Great, so you turn it around, and NOW you're offending Orthodox Christians..
The Orthodox church inspires tolerance, faith, and God's justice..

Perhaps you should turn your attention to Communists and weekend drunks who pose as nationalists, and use the church as a pedestal to stand on...

Not the God-fearing people..

Kosovo could be either serbian or albanian land.It's impossible to be both serbian and albanian.Milosevic knew that,and he tried to expell all the albanians as the only solution to keep Kosovo for the serbs only.He lost in his gambeling,so logicaly the Kosovo is in albanians hand now.Whatever you think,say or feel is inutil dear serbian neighbors. So stop day dreaminig and be realistic for once,for the good of your children wake up and move on.Kosovo was never yours,so you have not lost anything in fact.

If Serbs accept to negociate under yesterday resollution, nothing will stop Independence after 4 months, if Serbs reject to negociate according to yesterday's plan, the Independence will come sooner. So, Serbia is not in a win situation by far.
Russia and Serbia will be the biggest losers of all at the end. Russia will be left with a record that it vetoed Resolution, while Serbia will lose Kosova forever.

Americans don't play games after all the options are exhausted.

Belgrade hold strong cards: international law, precedent, principle, rules, charters and treaties. What is in Albanian hands - a misguided, delusional belief that it is so powerful it can make up its own rules, create its own reality, defy the laws of physics, politics and nature with mere whims?

Thank you Russia-your stand of principle in the Balkans is winning you moral and mutual respect once again from Orthodox Serbs, and Russia can only benefit on a partnership based on principles, respect, and being right.

What observers here fail to understand is that Rusia is in a win-win situation REGARDLESS of how it votes on the Kosovo issue.Russia has NOTHING to lose if it vetoes the resolution nor does it have anything to lose if it supports Kosovo independence.If it vetoes then it can claim to be the champion of international law.If it supports it then its next step would obviously be to recognize Transdniester,Abhkazia,Ossetia,parts of Ukraine and Estonia with majority Russian populations and so on.No sane person in Europe is going to stop the Russians from doing this by threatening armed conflict considering the fact that Russia is the most powerful country in Europe.Enough rational western Europeans are coming to the conclusion that a new solution has to be found to placate enough people in the Balkans to prevent Kosovo from becoming a much more important problem than it should be.

Milan
Its really simple... they see bush and think he is a messiah. We see bush and... well. As does every nation on earth. Other then albania.

Mike,

It is interesting solution. I think you have right but you forgot that in serbia there is a lot of none serbs. Hungarians they would like to have same rights as serbs in Kosova, Albanians, Sanxhak should have same rights, east of serbia should have same rights they are Bulgarians. Macedonia is the same case. Bosna is same. Montenegro same. I think better solution if Kosova can not be independent in existing borders is:
North of Kosova can be part of serbia exept Gazivoda lake.
South of Serbia should be part of Kosova. Of course serbs and albanians would have rights in highest level as minority in both contries. But if we start with changing borders than Montenegro and macedonia would be involved on this too. Also Sanxhak has to go to Kosova or Bisna, Vojvodina has to go to Hungary and esat of serbia has to go to Bulgaria. How about this solution?

Finaly Russians realized something related to Balkans. Perhaps this can be "Knin Syndrom". Since Serbs ruled over Knin, Serbia ha argument for any negotiations. After Tudjman occupied Knin, Serbia became exposed to any pressure including Kosovo. That means, who knows what Russian position in the future can be if Serbia will be defeated nowadays. Obviously Russian realized that their last defence is Serbia. Otervise they are going to be exposed to their final defeat.

"So the hardest pill to swallow will be compromise, something absolutely no one discusses here (not that I can remember anyway). (Djuro UK, Thursday, 21 June, 2007, 17:57)"
Djuro, I've always supported partition based on fair compromise, and I do believe that truly is a compromise between the two positions.
Mike, what you propose sounds a lot like what happened in Bosnia. I do think it has the possibility to be a better solution then what Ahtisaari has to offer, but I also strongly feel partition has a good chance at being a workable solution. I wouldn't support your solution, but neither would I strongly oppose it. It definitely is worth discussing.
Beni, I strongly support a regional solution, both Albanians and Serbians would benefit greatly by an all inclusive evaluation of the Right to Self Determination for both our peoples. The areas we'd lose are not as important to our people as Krajina and RS, so it’s a good deal. Very good for your people as well. We really shouldn't let the International Community divide us, we have common interests that we should pursue.
Personally, I think it would be very funny if both the Kosovar government and Serbia presented this as an option. Of course it would never find support in the EU, and Croatia and Bosnia would be very unhappy.
However, this quote is highly interesting;
"Meanwhile, Dragan Covic, president of the main Croatian party in Bosnia, the Croatian democratic union, said that all Croatian parties will propose this week that Bosnia be divided into three ethnic entities…"
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Politics&loid=8.0.427089848&par=0
If Serbs and Albanians can come to a peaceful agreement on Kosovo, it looks like we may be able to come to a real agreement in Bosnia with the Croats.
Partition Kosovo, partition Bosnia, forget Krajina, and we might just have a real win for Serbian politicians and possibly the region as a whole. It only really leaves Macedonia unresolved, but Albanians will very quickly be a majority there, so it will work itself out in time.

Beni...

Why not!
To those that speak that the partition of kosova is a good solution,i can say that i agree,but the same parameter must be applyed in south serbia.

Luciano,

the US stuck to thier sui generis argument and said that if the vote goes through the UN Russia can not apply it to other places.

So if Russia veto's it stands up for international law but then if the US act illegally in recognising an illegal unilateral declaration it removes 'sui generis' for anywhere else - russians have made it clear they will veto because this is win-win for them and lose-lose for the US. The US need to come to terms with this reality but bumbling George Dumbya Bush should have thought before he spoke the other weekend. The Russians now have all to gain with the veto.

normally posters like "murik" who in all seriousness write that Kosovo was never serbian, shouldn´t be worth getting an answer.
but since perhaps there is one or another western-european reader here, I will not stop to invalidate that nonsense, whenever it occurs.

the opposite is actually the truth. Kosovo was never albanian in it´s entire history.
one of the popular lies is that those orthodox churches were "albanian before", but however they are all built in the byzantine-serbian style...

and when I asked the Albanians several times "why are you burning them down then, if they were albanian before?" they stay calm...
that´s the way Albanians are arguing when it is about Kosovo´s history.

Albanians, I know, you are desperate, but even in your society it is considered as bad to take away something that is not yours.
so, just tell us, why are you so eager to grab that land that in fact never was yours?

Mike,

Interesting comment and very resonable solutions. Unfortunately we live in a place where the further away from each other we are the better for everybody.

Although i find most of your points acceptable i seriously doubt the level to which they can be properly implemented and observed.

My opinion is that we should try to simplify things as much as we can (although that may sometimes lead to radical solutions) and the solution your presented above ALTHOUGH REASONABLE creates a lot of room for political manouvering and possible missinterpreation.

If i had to chose betwen your solution and partition i would go for partition.

Jochen Scholz, thank you, it is enlightening to see that there are some people who see beyond indoctrination, I was losing hope until I read your post. Pijetro, writes “the Orthodox church inspires tolerance” is one more insightful comment for which the Albanians will accuse Pietro of Serbophilia . I live in Western Canada and I see intolerance taught every day in private Muslim and Catholic schools in British Columbia. It is sad that children are indoctrinated to hate others. This happens by the act of separation not necessarily by intent. As soon as you establish separate whatever you establish intolerance and racism

I like Mike's comments - not everything that he says, but he seems to understand Albanian concerns. When we hear "territorial integrity" we imagine another Serb campaign against Albanians, 5 or 50 or 200 years from now. Mike seems to understand this and he offers a compromise that includes banning Serbian institutions from meddling in Albanians' lives ever again (that's called independence). This is a good start. I and others like me have no desire to hurt Serbs - we would only be aggressive if our own or our childrens' existence were threatened.

Kosovo leaders and people of Kosovo ought to show their discontent now on the streets, schools, parks, everywhere. America has done all it can. There is just so much they can do. Though EU countries have shown some support publically, it's their dilemma that has emboldened Russians and brought the fate of 2 million Kosovars to a standstill.

It's virtually impossible to see or imagine Russia vote for Ahtisari's proposal. If there is nothing positive coming in the next summit between Bush and Putin, it's very premature for Kosovo leaders to expect something positive coming from Russians in the near future. It appears to me that Sejdiu and Cheku have remained passive throughout the year waiting for miracles. Though miracles transpire at the right time and moment, there is no historical account that they have ever rewarded a group of people with a brand new country.

And this group happen to be 2 million Albanians waiting in vain.

So, I believe it's the right time to give Albin Kurti a chance!

maybe danial, but the US must be stopped at some point. Don't you agree? they just go into any country they want, with really no direct threat to the US. and do their dirty work. 3500 + American troops dead, and God knows how many Iraqi's. that is USA's justice. their way of helping the world. in my humble opinion, just stay in DC and don't help anyone, the world will be better off.

Danial, just look and see how the US and the EU treat countries that don't obey them? Ask clinton.

One thing some here seem to miss is that the Albanians of Kosovo would rather perish than be under Serbia. And I don't see another try at ethnic cleansing by Serbia being successful any time soon.

laki, albanians killed many serbs during wwII and yet, we were all able to live side-by-side after that. how come? belgrade does not want to rule albanians, they are offering broad autonomy, rule yourselves for God's sake, it's about time. don't you get it? you just cannot have serbian land. it belongs to serbia. serbia has a heritage there, albanians do not. can you name one event of significance that bonds kosovo to albanians? NO!

john, why all the anger pal? we are here just to discuss. no one is basing their faith in the NATO, they are the accomplices that sided with clinton in his criminal bombing of a sovereign European nation. how much more criminal can you get? please read the following - this is the reality that is exposing clinton and his evil doings. the truth will ALWAYS surface. it is God's law.

From a Mass. Newspaper 6/07

In late March not long ago the United States attacked a sovereign country which posed no imminent threat to U.S. national security. After numerous threats and some coercive diplomacy, the U.S and its selected allies bypassed the United Nations to embark on a war of aggression in violation of international law.

Thousands of American soldiers remain in this “liberated” area, which has been the scene of extreme violence. I am not referring to the invasion and occupation of Iraq, but to NATO's 1999 bombing campaign against Yugoslavia and the subsequent occupation of Kosovo.

NATOs 1999 attack on Yugoslavia was presented to the public as a “humanitarian intervention” undertaken to stop Serbian atrocities against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. It was said that NATO had no choice but to bomb after Yugoslavia rejected the Rambouillet Accords for peace. In fact, the Clinton administration did not want a diplomatic solution in Kosovo any more than the Bush administration wanted a diplomatic solution in Iraq. The Rambouillet Accords gave NATO personnel immunity from arrest, investigation or detention by Yugoslavian authorities, and free and unrestricted passage and unimpeded access throughout Yugoslavia, including associated airspace and territorial waters. Since signing such a document would effectively end the country’s sovereignty, the Yugoslav government refused to sign. NATO started bombing a few weeks later on March 24, 1999.

The American public was bombarded with lies and hysterical allegations. Serbian forces were said to be carrying out "genocide" against the Albanian population of Kosovo while NATO bombed civilian targets all over Yugoslavia (including a convoy of Albanian refugees).

After NATO troops moved into Kosovo, hundreds of forensic experts from 17 countries came to look for evidence of this genocide. They could not find it. The International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia charged with investigating supposed mass graves put the number of bodies actually discovered at only a fraction of the tens of thousands rumored by official sources. By no means were all these the bodies of Albanian victims of Serbian forces. Journalist John Laughland noted in The Spectator: In the vast majority of cases, the bodies were buried in individual, not mass graves. Second, the Tribunal will not say what sex or age the alleged victims are, let alone what nationality.

What were the true goals of NATO's intervention? Profits and the pursuit of geopolitical interests, the goals of every war. Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown and Root was contracted to build the largest U.S. army base camp since Vietnam, Camp Bondsteel (complete with fast food outlets, a shopping center and a Laura Bush Center for Education, with college courses) in Kosovo. Construction plans for Bondsteel were underway well before the first bombs were dropped. Halliburton is also part of the Albanian-Macedonian-Bulgarian oil consortium, a group vying for control of planned oil pipelines for transporting Caspian oil from the Black Sea into Western Europe and elsewhere.

While the U.S. attack on Iraq has been exposed as an act of aggression, NATO’s claims of bombing Yugoslavia for "human rights"remain virtually unchallenged. If we are truly interested in taking a stand against war, we must reexamine the Clinton years and the damaging legacy of humanitarian intervention.

if you want to get a hint of what the problem is with the balkans, just read murik's comment. this exists on all ethnic lines in the balkans but, that is the poison that keeps us primitive.

wow beni, you are all over the place. you forgot my neighborhood in newark, we should get independence fron jersey. are you for real? the world does not work that way. you have to respect your current boudries. that's why they are there. what do you want to create in the world, a million little statelets? ain't gonna happen, because the big boys want their taxes, and the little boys ( you and me) gotta pay them. at days end, eu, us, the nato gonna look at what is most beneficial for them, and we are goona like it. end of story. you wanna shoot some more guns, go ahead but, this time it's gonna come right back at you.

just let the powers that be, do their thing, and learn to love your neighbors and let your anger go.

luciano: "it strikes me as odd that any objective observer thinks that the Kosovo issue is worth antagonizing 12 million Serbs and 150 million Russians over in order to placate 6 million Illyrians."

I doubt that out of 150 mil Russians, any significant number will agonize over the fact that Kosovo becomes independent or not. Most likely your average Russian doesn't have any idea where Kosovo is on the map, let alone care about its existence and maybe only a small handful follow what's going on, most likely out of curiosity.

The majority of the Serbs have never been in Kosovo, nor has any interest in visiting. Why is that? Maybe they don't give a damn either?
The only ones that really care and whose lives will be directly affected, are the ones that live day-to-day on the ground, and any status resolution should take first and foremost their desires and their interests into account. Kosovan Albanians, Serbs, Turks, Roma, Bosniaks etc., those should be really the ones to decide what should happen with their lives. To the rest is purely a matter of academic curiosity, or maybe a matter of online entertainment. And it's really a shame that the issue has become a power play between superpowers, that try to find a balance between them without any regard whatsoever for the lives of the people they are affecting. This is no different of what the Great Powers of the 19th century did, when they tried to please each other, by slicing and dicing the Balkans in any way it was convenient for their momentary interests. What it produced though is a century of hatred, misery and bloodshed. It's a crying shame that is being repeated over again in this time and age, and almost identically.

The solution to this problem should be very easy really, is not even a new solution and anywhere tried has given good and pacifying results. Have a referendum in the province and let the people decide what they want to do with their lives. Respect their decision and then focus your energies to bring about true reconciliation amongst different groups. Give justice to those who deserve it and let the rest of them live in peace.

How hard is that?

To: John 2

Trust me, NATO will not turn a blind eye this time if Albanins start violence. They will crush the violence. What does it take to make the Albanins understand its over. In the end, Serbia had the LAW and the Russians on their side which proved more powerful then the US,EU and NATO.

Americans don't play games after all the options are exhausted.
(Destan Belaxhia, Thursday, 21 June, 2007, 18:42)

American is powerless, or else you would have had your independence by now. And yes this is a game and guess what!!! You are the star of the game, or have you not realized this yet. What America is doing is cruel to the Albanins more so then the Serbians because legally Kosovo remains part of Serbia. You people need to open your eyes and see what is really happening here, its a game of politics between Russia and the USA and by the way don't blame everything on the Russians because if the Russians did not step into this then it would have been China, either way the situation would have been the same. What America is doing is very counter productive, they should be encouraging you people to get the widest possible autonomy available and be done with this nonsense. America has only one way out of this mess and that is if the Albanians get violent, then they can say "we tried to help you" but you bit the hand that fed you. I live in Canada and I know American politics a lot better then some Kosovo Albanian, so trust me when I say this, America is not your friend, just ask any Iraq citizen.

What the US and this pro-albanian website doesn't understand is that Russia is using the Kosovo issue to stick it to the US for "winning the Cold War". Bush thinks he can bribe Putin to betray Serbia. Bush also thinks he can create a western-style democracy in Iraq. 3/4 of America thinks Bush has gone insane.

Beni, I'm glad to know that at least we share the same general sentiment on minority rights and trying to make sure all communities have equal rights preserved. Yet there are a few things I disagree with in your response.

I do not believe we should carve up Serbia any more. The only issue on the table for negotiation is Kosovo, and that is what should stay. Presevo, Sandzak and Vojvodina are internationally recognized parts of Serbia. I'm confused by some of the things you say. First you say "if we start with changing borders than Montenegro and macedonia would be involved on this too". You're right on this, but why then do you suggest Vojvodina should go to Hungary? That is quite generous since Hungarians comprise only 14% of the total population. Why bring up Sandzak, or Presevo, or even region with Bulgarians? One of the points I mentioned in my proposed compromise is that the Kosovo solution of one state, two confederate zones is that is guaranteed to Serbia that no other region will be the same (see #8).

I do fully agree with you that all minorities should be given clear and legal rights. This includes Albanians in Presevo, Hungarians in Vojvodina, and Serbs in Kosovo. But if we are going to give land to other countries because people of that ethnicity live there, we need to carve up Bosnia, Montenegro, and Albania as well - not just Serbia.

So if you think it's bad to "change borders", first, why change the borders with Kosovo? Second, if Kosovo is the only region up for consideration, let's leave it at that, but make Kosovo institutionally work for both communities.

It is not enough only to reject every draft Resolution...
And finaly, are Russia and Serbia asking and thinking about K-Serbs, they might have more concrete and constructive approach?! Instead of BIG BROTHERS - UN, EU and Kosovo thought about K-Serbs and offered best standards for minorities even in Europe, which standards are already functioning in every day life in Kosovo...
Final 120 days are fair enough for considering Russia and Serbia and Kosovo is showing great prudence and political discretion in this historical moment. Independence is main moment in history of one country and nation and it doesn't make any sence to measure it with the days, months and even some reasonable years. It is a process and coming back every time to a time limits is only provocation towards Kosovars and their patience... Independence is final product of this process and relevant factors should be very aware about the moment and importance of it...

Dear posters-

Please provide links to copyrighted articles instead of copy and pasting them to your comments.

Thank you,

B92

So, I believe it's the right time to give Albin Kurti a chance!
(Albert Lehman, Friday, 22 June, 2007, 03:21)

Albert how can I get a CIA application for employment? You should know since it sounds like you work for them, or perhaps in your mind you think you work for them?
I cannot believe that B92 has posted your comments, its outrageous that someone is actually using this forum to publicly encourage violence! B92 will you now not put up my comments?