Wisner urges patience in Kosovo

After hearing comments from Russians for months about what they want its about time the west started doing the same and shifting a gear and its clear that russia will not be able to hold back a united west. Its simply too powerful.

and they will realise that eventually its veto can only harm themselves and will become irrelevant if its used. Economically it is the weakest veto wielding country and it definately doesnt want to become irrelevant by having its veto power become a joke of everyone in UNSC.

Id say it probably wants US not to cut the aid that they planned to cut to Russia.

Are the Albanians noticing a pattern here? I believe back in January it was said that Kosovo would be independent in a matter of weeks. A few months later, they said it would happen in May. Nothing. Then they said it would happen at the G8 Summit. Still nothing. Now they say it may wait until early July when Putin and Bush meet. But just now, on Reuters news service, they said that the U.S. is now considering having the Albanians and Serbs continue some more talks about Kosovo.

But the question is, IF the Americans do decide to reopen talks, do you honestly think the Albanians will not just declare independence? I believe there's a good chance. They'll realize the Russians will never let it pass in the UN. They'll realize that further discussions are pointless. And they'll think that if they go ahead and declare independence, they'll be recognized by the Americans after Bush opened his big mouth and said it would happen soon. I don't think they believe they have anything to lose at this point. Further discussions is completely off the table for the Albanians. Whereas the Serbs are willing to negotiate and find a solution.

What I find ironic is the tables seem to have turned. The Albanians are coming off like the stubborn "Do it our way or no way" attitude the Europeans and Americans hated about Milosevic. In the end, the Serbs are going to come off like the victims when violence erupts and the Serbs become the target. If anything, the arrogance of the ALbanians in Kosovo will only turn other Europeans countries against them. Perhaps America and Britian will still side with them but other nations in the EU will simply be turned off by the arrogance and the violent tactics of the Albanians.

In the end, I believe postponement will only benefit the Serbs. I don't think the Albanians will accept anything less than independence NOW.

Europe is dead set against the Kosovars declaring independence. They fear the split in the EU would be very damaging. Therefore, I think all these negotiations and constant postponements is evidence that the Americans and the West thought the Russians were going to just abstain or support the proposal. They felt that if they rushed this through the UN fast, the Russians wouldn't object. I think, like with Iraq, they were shocked that things didn't go exactly as they expected. So now Plan A is looking impossible and Plan B isn't looking too pretty. The Americans have made one blunder after another.

Why would anyone think Bush would get this right after screwing up Iraq, Afghanistan, Hurricane Katrina, The Immigration Bill, and the last election? Do you honestly think he will get this one right too?

These diplomats seem to be a bit single tracked in their thinking. They need to be a bit more imaginative and adaptable. They are not playing Holbrooke against Milosevic now - or if they are, it is time they accepted that the situation is not what it was then.

I think that there is scope to find a satisfactory solution. Serbia has said it is prepared to negotiate on the basis of independence of function (autonomy) and that does provide a useful starting point for some sensible negotiations.

The aims of the Kosovo population are based on self-governance. They most definitely want security. They would also like a context within which to grow their economy (something Serbia can provide). If Kosovo is to function independently with the acceptance of its neighbours, it could explore other possible solutions that would achieve those essential goals.

I suggest a solution could be found that is loosely based on the the concept of 'principality'. In historical time, principalities could arise by default because of the non-involvement of Kingdoms that used to have a claim. Also they could exist because of the support of some larger Kingdom that guaranteed its existence. Through a combination of protection from larger kingdoms and/or acceptance by the smaller kingdoms, state-lets could both function independently and maintain cooperative relations. In many ways this is the defacto situation in Kosovo.

Principalities can come to exist by default rather than by declaration. That is essentially what Kosovo has at the moment. The key ingredient that is missing is the acceptance of the status proposed - not the actuality of the status on the ground. In this case, the enpowering 'kingdom' is the international community and the one that could default to adopting a neighbourly role is Serbia.

What is needed is for Serbia to accept that autonomy is given by the international community and to become 'hands-off' in its acceptance of the governance of Kosovo. This cannot be readily achieved through melodramatic decalarations of independence but it can be achieved by gentle acceptance through cooperative negotiation. Acceptance (recognition) of independent governance can be achieved. While this is not a full grown Kingdom (something a province the size of Kosovo and ethnic structure of Kosovo cannot realistically ever be) it can become something like a 'principality' and so be secure in its own existence.

The alternative being pushed by 'international community' is not satisfactory because of the resentments it will leave behind and the dangerous messages it gives. It is not Milosevic being provocative now, neither is it Serbia. Serbia is now well on the way to functioning as a peaceful democratic state and as such is open to negotiation. I am genuinely surprised at the apparent unwillingness of the West to utilize the possibilities this can bring.

It's as clear as day to all but the Albanians.

KOSOVO WILL NOT BECOME INDEPENDENT WITHOUT THE BLESSING OF RUSSIA.

Who cares what George Bush says. it's actions not words that count, and wha tare the western countries actions, recognition of Kosovo? NO. Extending the deadline by at least another 6 months? YES. So it's obvious that the xtension wil be to try to persude Russia to accept the Ahtisaari proposal, otherwise they would have recognised Kosovo by now.

it's not independent and that fact isn't lost on the USA and EU, hence their determination to get the Russians onboard. No doubt Behar will have new "intelligence" from his high level secret sources, which informed him of Kosovo's independence by the end of MAY.

So it seems like a delay is on the cards after all, instead of rushing headlong into independence. Next we will hear that this will be on the basis that Plan A will be adopted at the end of a set period, but this will also be impossible to write into a Resolution. Russia (maybe China) will veto such a move.

Bush has inflamed this situation tenfold by making it seem like a done deal when it wasn't anyone's territory to give away. Whatever people on this site may think, Kosovo is still legally part of Serbia.

I'll miss out on any analogies because they are obviously too hard to grasp and too easy to distort. But no matter how often facts are denied, they are still facts! In the UK there are many in complete denial that we are part of Europe, but short of floating across oceans, them's the facts.

Genc - sorry if the mention of the word 'floating' offended or upset you in any way. No doubt you will find some tenuous link to a Milosevic speech and accuse me of some sort of assault on your sensitive nature.

Please don't come to me with the same old story about the killings in 1999 and so on: we all know what happend from both sides.

Now, for what I'm concern Kosovo has always been part of Serbia since the 9th Century so there's NO WAY it should be indipendent, it's not right and the 90% albanians should move on with their lives and let us live in peace.

I do personally believe one albanian country is more than enough on this planet.

Bob, whoever you are you sound very diplomatic but I don't think that you a clear cut picture of this part of the world. It's not everything black and white as it may seem on surface. One thing you must keep in mind that evry single day serbian notorius PM Koshutinca calls K-Albaninas all kind of names, such as; seperatist, terorists among many other offensive languages and serbia held elections and K-Alb. were excluded, etc... Bob, serbia wants the land but not the people , which are the rightful owners of the said land,and I don't see it as necessar to mention the murder and mayhem done to Kosovar's in the name of Greater serbia that you did not find the time to include one small sentence in this regard.Therefore, I totally disagree with your diplomatic language of yours.

MARKO, if Kosovo/a was part of Serbia since 9th century, now can you tell me who was living in Kosovo/a before 9Th century and to whom did it belong to than? I hpe I hear the honest to truth answer and not myths.

Ahmet - "Bob, serbia wants the land but not the people, which are the rightful owners of the said land."

Firstly, Serbia already has the land in whatever form that may take. I am sure that the Albanians of Kosovo will actually obtain an extremely high level of autonomy.

Secondly, there is really no such thing as 'rightful' ownership when it comes to law and diplomacy.

As for Kostunica and his 'offensive' language, when he speaks of terrorists and separatists he is talking of those specific Kosovo Albanians who wish to annex part of Serbia's territory, by means of violence if need be. I don't see any leader in the world who wouldn't take a firm stance against this.

You are lucky that you are not trying to do the same in the US. They would not put up with a second of it and clamp down so hard that there would be no room for any type of negotiation.

Blacky - I agree with what you say but am interested to know if you think the US would actually recognise unilateral independence. I personally do not think they would because the stakes are too high. The UK (embarrassingly) will do anything that the US says.

Bob - You are speaking about own governance within the scope of the highest level of autonomy, which I believe will be the case. As an example, Wales is very nationalistic but not independent. It has its own parliament (Welsh Assembly), flag, funding structure, and a broad recognition as being an independent entity. It has the same legal system as England (unlike Scotland).

Things are pretty well accepted by the Welsh on this basis and Wales is referred to as a country in its own right.

There is no reason why this structure couldn't be adopted in Kosovo, which is roughly the same size.

Ahmet Isufi:

you are definitely NOT the rightful owners of that land...

you can repeat it a thousand times, it still won´t be true.

I still don't think that the Albanians have got the message. read the following VERY carefully:

What we wish to achieve in New York is to have a resolution that is based on Ahtisaari’s plan and is acceptable to all members of the Security Council.

Read the last 8 words!!! In other words, no independent Kosovo without Russia.

Miller if we want to have an answer get a book and read it yourself.

My comments has been cut. post it the way it has been posted doesn't make much sense.

Blacky and Kate

You seem to propose/force a solution that people of Kosova will oppose. Why?
This was done in the past and the result of that is was WAR. Do you still want that kind of situation? Do you really think that we that live in Balkans want another war. Sorry but no. We are tired of the wars, so please propose something that people of Kosova will accept and be happy with that. Do take into consideration population that lives in it as well when you decide to propose something. Do you know that in Kosova most of the population is K-Albanians. Do you know that K-Serbs sold their properties and have no place to return? Do you know that during the WWI Serbia drove by killing and terrorising K-Albanians from their homes and colonised Kosova with Serbs from Serbia. Konstantin Jirisek describes this very well in his books.

Someone mentioned the solution same as in Wales. Well, Wales solution would not be practical because people of Kosova do not want to be part of Serbia!
Welsh want to be part of GB!
Ahtisari plan gives more to Serbs that they deserve. I think that Serbia should give the same deal to Albanians in Presheva, Bujanoc and Medvegje.

Jovan

You(if you are a Serb) seem not to know your history at all.

KOSOVA WILL BE INDEPENDENT NO MATTER WHAT SERBIA SAYS.

If Kosovo will get indipendence I will eccept Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, The Basque Region, Cecenia, Trentino in Italy, Kurdistan all to be free to be indipendent a second after Kosovo will.

Honestly I personally admmire our Serbian politicians for being so patiente.

I do love it when pro-Independence contributors link pre-Serb Kosovo and Metohija with the present day Albanian nation. It is a child like approach to history that would be laughed at in acedemic circles.

Apart from disregarding place name evidence that overwhelmingly supports majority Serb habitation in the medieval period (a fact conceded by 'Mr I LUV ALBANIA, Noel Malcom himself) it attempts to link the shadowy and mysterious Illyrian tribes (of which there were many) with the Albanian nation. This is due to the fact that the Illyrian tribes lived throughout the Balkans before the arrival of the Slav tribes and with so little known about them (only limted understanding of the language and an alphabet that has been lost in the mists of time) Albanians have tried to link themselves with this confederate of tribes in a niave hope that it will bolster territorial claims.

Give it up chaps. Illyrians, Thracians or any other bunch of people in ancient times is no basis for a modern nation state to claim land beyond its borders. I mean, if i was sat on a bus would you ask me to get out of your seat because Bardyllis (king of Illyria) sat in it in the 4th century BC?

NEVER ENDING STORY so it goes. next weeks, next months, next years. the west is now waking up to the reality so must our albanian friends. AUTONOMY is the right solution. serbia owns the land, albanians run their own affairs politically, economically and security. EVERYBODY HAPPY, isnt' it???

Bob,

Although superficially it seems that you are in fact promoting a peaceful resolution to the Kosovo issue, anyone that looks at your comment with a minimal amount of concentration will understand that you are saying the exact same thing the politicians in Serbia are saying, which is “Rule Yourselves, We do not want to integrate you in our society, we just want the land (or the appearance of sovereignty)”. You try to disguise these intentions with something he called a “principality” which translates to “autonomy” and that is absolutely nothing new from what the politicians in Belgrade claim they are ready to give us.

You also pretend to understand the demands of the people of Kosovo. According to you the Kosovars was “self-government” and “security”. The fact is we already have “self-government” and we are perhaps one of the most secure places in the Balkans with 16,000 NATO troops. What the people of Kosovo really want (and this will be confirmed by any Kosovo Albanian) is for Serbian sovereignty to disappear from Kosovo forever. We do not want to be linked to Serbia in any shape or form. Self Government and Sovereignty are two completely different things and you understand this all too well but yet you try to insult our intelligence by telling us what WE want. It’s a ridiculous attempt to bend the truth.

On the other hand, the Western countries in general and the United States in particular have finally come to understand that leaving Kosovo under Serbian sovereignty in whatever shape or form will only breed more hatred and conflict.

Too many times throughout history our “principality” was simply declared null and void by politicians in Serbia attempting to gain some political strength through nationalism and we will not be slaves to the whims of Serbian politicians any longer.

Anything short of full sovereignty and full independence is a big NO. What part of “WE DO NOT TRUST YOU” don’t you understand?

You said Serbia is different now, which quite frankly is a ridiculous statement. The largest party in Serbia are the ultra-nationalist radicals, whose official policy was and is “through those Albanians over the Accursed Mountains into Albania” and your current Prime Minister is perhaps even more radical than the radicals. So how exactly is Serbia different in relation to the Kosovo Albanians?

Anthony,

Why not? You told us to get out of our seats because slavic chieftains from the urals sat on them in the 7th centry AD.

Kate wrote:
"Things are pretty well accepted by the Welsh on this basis and Wales is referred to as a country in its own right.
There is no reason why this structure couldn't be adopted in Kosovo, which is roughly the same size."

There is a very important reason that you choose to ignore. We are talking about Serbs and Albanians not about Welsh and English. These two types of relations have nothing in common.
It is so shortsighted to bring analogies around the world by avoiding the most essential point that K-Albanians can never live under the Serbs anymore.

There is no analogy to this case and that's why Kosovo case is unique.

Dino - I was talking about structure and legislation. That was the comparison.

America is now giving itself time to play the issue down and distance itself from this trap which would only cause a rift between EU and US. Anyone who said or believed Russia has no say or influence, well now you have all been silenced. I remember nearly 4 days ago, BUSH saying there will be no more delays and KOSOVO is FREE. I guess he should have said it in Pristina.

Ok, Dino. Then with whom can the Albanians live? Greeks? Montenegrins? Macedonians?

A better answer must exist for a land rip-off then "we can never live with Serbs".

Kate,

The structure and legislation of a territory reflect the actual relationship of people living in the concerned territory. The structure and legislation that regulate the Welsh-English relationship are a result of prior agreement by the concerned stakeholders.

The Welsh and the English can live under one sovreign because they have agreed to live under one sovreign and not because a law tells them to.

People draft and impose laws on themselves to regulate their own relationships, behaviours and structures.

When such a relationship, bahaviour or structure is damaged for whatever reason then laws need to be amended to reflect the new reality on the ground.

Your arguement is flawed and as Dino said such analogies are hightly innapropriate.

Kate,

Did the English killed 10,000 Welsh people in the last 10 years? Did they rape hundreds of women? Did they fired 90% of Welsh people from the public sector trying to starve them?
Did they 8 years ago forcibly expelled one million of Welsh people out of Wales?
Not only Serbia did these to Kosovars, but it still continues to refuse to admit them and apologize about them.
Furthermore it lack the means and the will to reintegrate Kosovo in any possible sot of autonomy.
Trying to compare Kosovo with Wales or any other region in Europe became obsolete in 1999.
The status debate aside, had the English found two mass grave, in the suburbs of London, with 800 Welsh civilians (among them 8 women and a baby) they would have expressed their sorrow and shame.
That is why Kosovars like the Welsh people would have opted to stay with the English but not with the shameless Serbs.
By refusing to renounce the crimes committed by Serbian army and paramilitaries in Kosovo, the Serbian public opinion endorsed them.

Well,so many promises.I think the Americans are loosing a bit in here.
As a born Kosovan Albanian I will respect Americans whole life but at the moment I don't know how patient my brothers and sisters in Kosova/o will be?!
We owe them a lot,we owe them everything.But now is the time to show to us that they really mean business!
Patience is running out even though Kosova/o with the help of UNMIK is running the show.
In this beautiful forum there are commentators that are suffering from"albanophobia".In other words they can't except that these days Albanians can have a say about their lives.This is the biggest problem and will be the biggest problem in the future.
Serbs have to let Kosovan Albanians to express themselves and have to start to respect them as a equal nation regarding the future of Kosova/o,until this won't happened there won't be no future between two nations.
On the other hand there are some commentators that suffer from "serbophobia" or they just can't stand the Serbs.
We have to speak with Serbs,we have to listen and respect their views,but we don't need to agree with them.We have to respect that they are fighting for their country but again we don't need to agree with them.
We have to show to each other more respect to achieve something.
But for me maybe is easy as I live abroad and I see things differently.
Hopefully all of us one day will be cured of this phobia and continue to live our lives.
Peace and Love.

Hi Nick

You didn't read what I said with more than a minimum amount of concentration! Thanks for taking note though.

Serbia is going down a better path, and the international community can help that process through negotiation. I am fully aware that things are not black and white in that region - that is why cooperation and negotiation is the way forward. Unilateral hard-line racially motivated argument has to stop and all sides need to stop being purely selfish. That can be achieved over time if there is a will. There also has to be respect - and I believe it is possible for Serbia to respect and even want the autonomy of Kosovo as underwritten by the international community. The ethnic tensions would soon disappear when the right balance of repect is established. You say you do not want to be linked to Serbia in any shape or form - that is a unilateralist view but it is not going to be true when people trade and work across the borders. In fact the trading relationships are already active.

For a province to become a kingdom is actually pretty meaningless in this case. The kingdom of the Albanians is Albania, so even that way round Kosovo would behave more like a principality. Face it, a principality is essentially an independent state, it is just that it depends on a bigger power for existence - which will always be the international community in the case of Kosovo. The capacity of Kosovo to build relationships with all around is important - it cannot be hate forever.

Cvele,

The US is not withdrawing from their position. Everybody wants a UN resolution. Even the Kosovo Albanians want a UN resolution so its only natural that in order to achieve this common goal some sacrifices must be made.

By relying on the United States promise of guaranteed independence, the Kosovo Albanians are playing it smart. We know the US can not afford to be humiliated by Russia. We know that at this time of strained relations betwen the US and the muslim world it would be disatrous for the United States reputation to betray its only muslim friends and surrender to Russian demands. This is not "the only factor" that determines the relationship betwen the US and the Kosovo Albanians and the US position on independence but it is definately and important one.

The worst thing that can happen in Kosovo is partition. Even if the US surrenders to Russian and Serbian demands the Kosovo Albanians will never agree to restoring Serbian sovreignty, effectively partitioning Kosovo into north and south.

If Mr. Wisner says wait 120 days we will wait 120 days, we trust the US opinion and we know they will soon fulfill their promise.

Nick - "The Welsh and the English can live under one sovreign because they have agreed to live under one sovreign and not because a law tells them to."

This shows that you don't actually understand the structure of the UK at all. There has never been any referendum for independence or to become a republic.

Ruben - Your comments have absolutely no bearing on what I said. As I commented to Dino, I was talking about LEGISLATION and STRUCTURE.

You throw back emotive comments about dead babies and mass graves which means that you have no constructive argument to use at all.

I have said many times on this site that all perpetrators of murders and crimes against innocent victims should be tried and sentenced (but not by mob rule). Whatever the ethnicity of the perpetrator or the victim.

This discussion is about the legislative proposals and diplomatic activity regarding Kosovo. If I had been talking glibly about death and crimes then I would expect your reaction, but you have no need to start trying to horrify.

If you have any thoughts about how Kosovo could function if there is no independence, I will be interested to hear them.

Situation is clear: all Western powers want independence.... Russia wants Serbia to agree to any decision taken by UNSC. So, the situation is clear: break Serbia's will. It'll take time, but that will happen sooner or later. As for breakaway republics in Caucasus, they are already recognized by Russia, but they want western recognition, while Kosovo doesn't care about Russian recognition... they just want to be recognized by the West. Serbia will agree sooner or later to "some kind of independence" and then it will become proper one. Just as in hte case of Dayton. Serbia agreed to Dayton, which is now being dismantled and Bosnia is slowly becoming a unified state...

vrnjak wrote:

"Ok, Dino. Then with whom can the Albanians live? Greeks? Montenegrins? Macedonians?"

Please pay attention what the others write. I said and I quote myself again:

"It is so shortsighted to bring analogies around the world by avoiding the most essential point that K-Albanians can never live under the Serbs anymore."

Do you see the difference between "under" and "with".
K-Albanians can live with anyone as equal, even with Serbs, but not "under" anyone.
For them to be equal they need the independence.

Kate!

Comparing Wells &England with Serbia&Kosova????!!!.
Even in such harmonic situation as it is in UK there is a very strong movement of separatism in Scotland you knew.Suppose England makes attrocities in scotland like serbia did in Kosova what would it look like?

Serbia was good while it was subsidizing health care, education and providing social insurance benefits / welfare. Serbian taxpayers built Kosovo after WWII since there was literally no tax-base in Kosovo. In reality, the Albanians never bothered to pay any taxes or utilities.

The public assets have been plundered by the mafia and the internationals through "privatization." Not a single red cent has gone to the Serbian treasury.

Nobody ever talks about this. Someone has counted the books dealing with Kosovo (on Amazon.com) and out of some 550 books, NOT ONE deals with economic issues.

Anthony Shelmerdine

even Milosevic recognised the existence of Illyrians and accepted that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians. What in earth made you write such a thing. Do not under value yourself?

Albanians have tried to link themselves with this confederate of tribes in a niave hope that it will bolster territorial claims.

(anthony shelmerdine, Friday, 15 June, 2007, 14:37)

Actually all scholars, except Serbs, believe that Illyrians are the ancestors of today's Albanians. Even Greek scholars come to such conclusion. It is actually the Serbs that have tried to disprove, sometimes in hilarious fashion, any Albanian link to Illyrians in the hope to bolster their own territorial claims. Furthermore, given the lack of Serbian history, up until the 19th century, Serbs thought they were the descendants of the Illyrians.

But in all fairness, if you propose that the history of Kosovo's rulers shouldn't be taken into account in the status equation, then there is only one possible solution: Find a status that is in accordance with the reality on the ground. And it just happens that over 90% of Kosovo's population wants independence.

Problem solved

It is not problem of Serbia. Problem is Russia ans Serbia. Serbia would accept independence of Kosova because they can't do anything. Russia pushing Serbia not to accept independence of Kosova. Reason is they Russia invested so much last 100 years to destroy Albanians. Before and after first world war they occupied territory of albanians (Kosova, West Macedonia, South of Serbia until NISUS, South of Montenegro, Norht of Greece). This territory was donated to Serbia, Greece and Montenegro. Hundred thousands of Albanians were killed or deported to Turkey and existing Albania during these operations and after. They will never stop making plans for destroying albanians.

To quote Madelein Albright's words during the bombing campaign: "Compliance, compliance, compliance!" It can take longer than 74 days, but the end result is COMPLIANCE!!!!

Nick....

If by 'us' you mean Albanian then you clearly need help with my 'complex' posting. Albanians were not uprooted by Slavs in the 7th century. A notion of 'Albanian' ethnicity wasn't even formed until the late 19th century. The pre-Slav population in the Balkans are NOT Albanian. Dont you understand that in Northern Albania and the mountains of Montenegro there are clans who see themselves as either Albanian or Montenegrin yet their lineage is from the same legendary figure (i refer to my own clan the Vasojevici, the Piperi, Ozrinici and the Albanian Krasniqi and Hoti).

Kate....

Give it up chuck. I'm Anglo/Serb so i get a very well balanced view of events in Kosovo and Metohija. The xenophobia and rabid anti Serb attitude of many posters on this site will never change. Most attacks on you start with a long diatrade about 1999 without actually forming a clear arguement. You're intelligent well balanced unbiased posts are wasted.

Yeah yeah just keep patronising Serbia and insulting their intelligence. Serbs do not want to join NATO. EU yes but not NATO. It's an undemocratic organisation out of civilian control. 2/3 of people in both Poland and Czech Republic are against the shields but NATO and the Empire do not give a damn about it. 'Democracy' in the West is a pure farce. They can try all they want to trick Serbs with their ploys and manipulations but they are not going to succeed. No matter what. Serbia does not need to join NATO to get into the EU. They think if they keep repeating their lies and manipulations people will start believing in them. Like when they fabricated 'evidence' to attack Iraq. I predict jails are going to be full.

Nick,

The only way that Kosovo will gain independence is if US abandons all its plans for Georgia. Their interest is the pipeline through Kosovo to Europe and thats their only reason for needing independence in Kosovo.

However, they could bypass Kosovo and allow Serbia to control it because it doesnt undermine their cause.

Now, Georgia. Is in a position where they cannot bypass the pipeline through another area, and while they can sacrifice Kosovo, they cant do the same for Georgia.

Russia VETOs the resolution... US declairs unilateraly independence and Russia follows up by doing the same in Georgia.
OR
Russia strikes a deal and abstains while still having its troops stationed all over Georgia and still keeps the stranglehold on EU.

I believe the second is 1/10 while first is 9/10 in likeliness to come about. Simply because its all about saving face for both of them. US is more likely to let up because Russia has played this issue to a point where 85% of Russians are against Kosovo independence.

Now be real about it. Who is more important to the west. KOSOVO or SERBIA with KOSOVO.

Easy for them to put u back on the terrorist list I think.

Kate & Associates

Do not try and compare Scotland-Wales and England, with Serbia and Kosovo.

I won't go into how Serbia treated albanians in the last 10 years or more and how England-UK treated Wales, since somebody else did it very well.


You are makig it sound as if Scotland or Wales have been fighting for independnce for years.

The simple fact is that Scotland or Wales do not want to be independent. And for your information there was a referendum on independence in Scotland in 1979 and it failed msierably, since the majority of Scottish people wanted to remain in UK.

Today we have the same situation where majority of Scottish and Welsh want to remain within UK - even though SNP won in Scotland, the majority of voters voted for parties against independence.

If Scotland or Wales wanted to be independent than England would accept it. But they don,t so there is no comparison. Drop it!

Anthony - Yes, I do seem to be flogging a dead horse. Ooops - that one's going to get me into trouble.

Nikshala - I was talking about a nationwide referendum! AND ONCE AGAIN I WAS USING THE COMPARISON OF THE LEGISLATIVE FRAMEWORK.

Olf and the rest of you myth believing inhabitants of ex communist countries who were spoon fed selective history by state sponsered historians, now discredited, and disregard the research of non political academic historians from the world greatest learning institutes....

Serbs never saw themselves as Illyrian but wanted a pan slavic state under the banner of Illyrian movement. This is due to the parallels between Illyria (a federation of various different ancient tribes) and the Illyrian movement (attempts at freeing Slavs from living under foreign empires and creating a federation of different people)

The ghosts of Hoxa, Zhivkov and Ceausescu mind control lives on. Do you actually believe that your theories actually hold water beyond the Balkans?

Those who give an uncited reference to Milosevic conceding that Illyrians are Albanians proves nothing but their ignorance. Dont quote Milosevic... you hate him!!! What do you do for an encore. Back up something with a spicy Hitler quote????

I attended University College London and that is Europes premier place to study the Balkans.

I am kosova albanian and I dont mind to live under serbia, but serbia should state clearly what autonomy includes. Koshtunica says albanians can conduct their political and economic affairs independently and then goes on to say kosova's natural resources belong to serbia. What autonomy is that if you want all our resources and land? you want us to live on air?

Easy guys....does any one know who's going to be Crvena Zvezda new manager?

Armend

"I am kosova albanian and I dont mind to live under serbia, but serbia should state clearly what autonomy includes. Koshtunica says albanians can conduct their political and economic affairs independently and then goes on to say kosova's natural resources belong to serbia. What autonomy is that if you want all our resources and land? you want us to live on air?"

- I am a Serb and I will speak for myself.

"I" dont want you to live under Serbs... I want you to live WITH SERBS.

When they say Kosovos resources are Serbias that means that Serbias resources are KOSOVOS. We r not interested in bloodshed or anyones suffering. TOGETHER WE WOULD BE STRONGER.

PS I have nothing against new flag for Kosovo as to represent both cultures equally there.

I hope "WE" could be like Canada... and the province of Quebec. Which SHOULD be the model for our constitution if "WE" are to live together. Its not imposible if we can rid ourselves of US, RUSSIA and even EU. Then we could capitalise on the benifits to a much GREATER extent. The only way this can be done is if CEKU is completely discredited and someone who is not a US pawn is installed in his place.

I realise how far-fetched this sounds... but this is the best possible outcome for all. Short of Yugoslavia being reinstated and Macedonia and Bosnia re-joining the federation. Serbia is not interested in Greater Serbia. But in the future of all people within our borders. Our wide variety of ethinc minorities shows that for itself.

Ok Dino. Lets play with the words as you wish. If Albanians can never live in a majority Serbian nation, then what of the Greeks, Montenegrins and Macadonians? Why is it that in all four of Albania's neighboring countries, a land rip-off is in the works in the areas where Albanians are a majority? In other words why can't Albanians live as a peace as a minority (or under another nation as you would put it)? What justification do the secessionists in Greece, Montenegro & Macadonia have?

Yes Cvele, it is far-fetched. Autonomy offer sounds good when they say "highest degree in the world". Now you understand why people here dont believe it. When it comes to details, then it is always 'trust us' and 'all will be sorted'. I will give you an example why people dont believe things have changed in Serbia. 99% of the media and politicians in Serbia use the derogatory name 'shiptars' for albanians. You can never find in kosovo media serbs being called insulting names. Not now, not in the nineties, never. If your mainstream media and politicians cannot deign to call Albanians with their proper name, how can any promise be taken seriously? B92 is an exception, but even the state media use "shiptart' more than 'albanian.' Would you believe that blacks enjoy any rights in a country where 'N' words is used widely in public?

Kate,

Who said anything about a referendum, an agreement does not have to be in writing or supported by any law to exist.

The vey fact that the Welsh and the English are not at each others throats means they have an informal agrement to live together.

Please read comments carefully before answering.

anthony shelmerdine,

"Most attacks on you start with a long diatrade about 1999 without actually forming a clear argument. You're intelligent well balanced unbiased posts are wasted."

So you are implying all of Kosovo Albanians here are unintelligent and you seem to think we dont understand what Kate or you are saying?

Let me tell you something Sir, we do understand what you are saying and we do understand what your country is offering but come what it may our answer is NO and its going to stay at NO.

You who killed 8 thousand people in the largest massacre after WWII, you who treated the Kosovo Albanians like animals accuse us of xenophobia?

You are trying to convince yourself 1999 didn’t happen and reject any argument based on what happened then as emotional or unreasonable.

You think 10,000 people died and almost a million expelled and hundreds of houses burnt do not make for a good argument? Or maybe you think it didnt happen?

Armend

How long did it take for them to stop saying the "N" word in the states. Im not saying its not true... I am saying its not impossible for it to change.

Also "TRUST US" is unacceptable. Obviously EU and ONLY EU should administer the autonomy at first and for as long as necessary. I doubt anyone in Belgrade politician or otherwise would say anything about that.

Everyone who is not blind should see INDEPENDENCE is the worst posible outcome. There will never be peace. This would not only preserve peace but will improve our relations with not only our neighbours but with everyone. Excluding the US. So everyone that matters. (EU and RUSSIA) I say Russia because of energy and resources. Something US cannot supply "us" with.

PS The number 1 PRIORITY in KOSOVO is not and should not be independence. It should be EDUCATION, UNEMPLOYMENT, AND CORUPTION. Nothing else is more important then securing your future and your childrens future. Anyone who would object to this would be ignorent.

Art,

You said "90% of Kosovo's population wants independence". . .however, 80% of Serbia's population does not. And last I checked. . . Kosovo is still part of Serbia. Who's the majority now?

PB
It is clear as crystal that KOSOVO will and technically is indipendent,you guys know that, and my advice to you and everybody ellse blind enough not to see and accept the truth about Kosova

To Nick,

If you don't like being Serbian and living in the Serbian province of Kosovo why don't you just immigrate to another country or go to Albania? If Canada treated me the way you claim Serbia treated you I would take my family and get the hell out of Canada I certainly would not waste my time with a group of unhappy Canadians trying to steal 15% of Canada's land.

And as for the 90% Albanian majority in Kosovo, I read that it is estimated that up to 30% of the Albanins illegally came to Kosovo from Albania in the past 20 years. 3 out 10 Albanins are not even living legally in Kosovo. Also I read on the BBC web site that thousands of Albanins are going to be deported out of England in the coming weeks, because they claimed to be from Kosovo but it was later discovered that they were actually from Albania, that's the same trick Albanians have done in Kosovo but the British will have none of that, and rightfully so! If NATO asked you to prove your legal status in Kosovo, could you prove that you are in fact a Serbian citizen, or would you claim that you have no ID and that you are not Serbian?

"If Albanians can never live in a majority Serbian nation, then what of the Greeks, Montenegrins and Macadonians? "

Dear Vrnjak,
I can assure you this "Albanian Minority" in Greece, is a fairytale. There are ZERO people native in Greece that will self define themselves as albanians....

BUT, and this is a big BUT that the serbs must take benefit from.

There are about 50,000 Greeks in Southern Albania (also called Northern Epirus) who never had any priviledges, they even practiced the greek language secretly at homes,
they were often moved to Northern Albania in order to loose their ties with the greek community, never had a greek university, etc...

That would be someting that we all should look for.

The N.Epirus Problem is a very old problem, and MO it is curently a secret card in the Kosovo table. Greece will play this card sooner or later....

Armend,

It is through "open & honest" dialogue the agreed formula for how autonomy works can be fashioned. The foundations of such talks would be based on objectives that are in the best interest for the province and for the state overall. None of this is allowed to be discussed because the "US & UK" don't wish to admit their wrong doing and the manipulation of the people in the region. To admit their complicitness in Illegal methods would be costly both in credibility financially - especially pertaining to the vast amounts of depleted uranium that they peppered across FR Yugoslavia at the time. But that is another discussion entirely.

What I want to say is that all alternatives need to be discussed so that for those who live in sovereign Serbia can do so in peace and prosper (Win-Win) or else all will suffer again(Lose-Lose).

Regarding the "Shqiptar" word - I finding it interesting that this should be an offensive word given such examples as; "Radio Televizioni Shqiptar (RTSH) is the state broadcaster in Albania, founded in 1938 and operated from Tirana."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Televizioni_Shqiptar

Is it not the Albanian word for Albania? Please clarify and if it causes offence I will ensure I never use it and tell others if ever I hear it - though that would seem difficult to suggets to Albanians given what it does actually mean!

Kate, good analysis and for those who just don't get it realise that Kate is suggesting what must be one of many alternatives in ensuring self governance for the Serbian province. Why don't you respect her for offering alternatives and enter into dialogue of how this could be beneficial for all?

Same goes to Bob - principality is fairly interesting and I believe there was even suggestion of another way forward - Aland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85land
- you would have thought it being so close to home as an autonomous region of Finland that Ahtisaari would have at least given it some thought for Kosovo & Metohija

Anthony, it is clear that you have a better understanding and have done your research on the history of the region and do not base it on the reinventive communist indoctrination (as you rightly point out) "spoon fed selective history by state sponsered historians, now discredited, and disregard the research of non political academic historians from the world greatest learning institutes.... "
- there lies one of the many elements of the Gordian Knot - indoctrination!

Louie, I almost missed your post in the scale of things I sense a reality of the situation. I would suggest that you use your position in the US to foster undersanding that
"We have to speak with Serbs,we have to listen and respect their views,but we don't need to agree with them. We have to respect that they are fighting for their country"

If this realisation occurs within the governing class then I believe the respect will be reciprocal and you will hear many more voices in Serbia ensuring equality will be forever maintained. Maybe it is time that all the peoples are alllowed an opportunity to discuss in open and honest dialogue to find the solution that is agreeable to all - this will not be easy and your right there will be disagreements but surely the last yeasr have been wasted while this has not been alllowed and the sooner such dialogue starts the sooner a real and agreeed resolution will come about.

After hearing comments from Russians for months about what they want its about time the west started doing the same and shifting a gear and its clear that russia will not be able to hold back a united west. Its simply too powerful.

and they will realise that eventually its veto can only harm themselves and will become irrelevant if its used. Economically it is the weakest veto wielding country and it definately doesnt want to become irrelevant by having its veto power become a joke of everyone in UNSC.

Id say it probably wants US not to cut the aid that they planned to cut to Russia.

Are the Albanians noticing a pattern here? I believe back in January it was said that Kosovo would be independent in a matter of weeks. A few months later, they said it would happen in May. Nothing. Then they said it would happen at the G8 Summit. Still nothing. Now they say it may wait until early July when Putin and Bush meet. But just now, on Reuters news service, they said that the U.S. is now considering having the Albanians and Serbs continue some more talks about Kosovo.

But the question is, IF the Americans do decide to reopen talks, do you honestly think the Albanians will not just declare independence? I believe there's a good chance. They'll realize the Russians will never let it pass in the UN. They'll realize that further discussions are pointless. And they'll think that if they go ahead and declare independence, they'll be recognized by the Americans after Bush opened his big mouth and said it would happen soon. I don't think they believe they have anything to lose at this point. Further discussions is completely off the table for the Albanians. Whereas the Serbs are willing to negotiate and find a solution.

What I find ironic is the tables seem to have turned. The Albanians are coming off like the stubborn "Do it our way or no way" attitude the Europeans and Americans hated about Milosevic. In the end, the Serbs are going to come off like the victims when violence erupts and the Serbs become the target. If anything, the arrogance of the ALbanians in Kosovo will only turn other Europeans countries against them. Perhaps America and Britian will still side with them but other nations in the EU will simply be turned off by the arrogance and the violent tactics of the Albanians.

In the end, I believe postponement will only benefit the Serbs. I don't think the Albanians will accept anything less than independence NOW.

Europe is dead set against the Kosovars declaring independence. They fear the split in the EU would be very damaging. Therefore, I think all these negotiations and constant postponements is evidence that the Americans and the West thought the Russians were going to just abstain or support the proposal. They felt that if they rushed this through the UN fast, the Russians wouldn't object. I think, like with Iraq, they were shocked that things didn't go exactly as they expected. So now Plan A is looking impossible and Plan B isn't looking too pretty. The Americans have made one blunder after another.

Why would anyone think Bush would get this right after screwing up Iraq, Afghanistan, Hurricane Katrina, The Immigration Bill, and the last election? Do you honestly think he will get this one right too?

These diplomats seem to be a bit single tracked in their thinking. They need to be a bit more imaginative and adaptable. They are not playing Holbrooke against Milosevic now - or if they are, it is time they accepted that the situation is not what it was then.

I think that there is scope to find a satisfactory solution. Serbia has said it is prepared to negotiate on the basis of independence of function (autonomy) and that does provide a useful starting point for some sensible negotiations.

The aims of the Kosovo population are based on self-governance. They most definitely want security. They would also like a context within which to grow their economy (something Serbia can provide). If Kosovo is to function independently with the acceptance of its neighbours, it could explore other possible solutions that would achieve those essential goals.

I suggest a solution could be found that is loosely based on the the concept of 'principality'. In historical time, principalities could arise by default because of the non-involvement of Kingdoms that used to have a claim. Also they could exist because of the support of some larger Kingdom that guaranteed its existence. Through a combination of protection from larger kingdoms and/or acceptance by the smaller kingdoms, state-lets could both function independently and maintain cooperative relations. In many ways this is the defacto situation in Kosovo.

Principalities can come to exist by default rather than by declaration. That is essentially what Kosovo has at the moment. The key ingredient that is missing is the acceptance of the status proposed - not the actuality of the status on the ground. In this case, the enpowering 'kingdom' is the international community and the one that could default to adopting a neighbourly role is Serbia.

What is needed is for Serbia to accept that autonomy is given by the international community and to become 'hands-off' in its acceptance of the governance of Kosovo. This cannot be readily achieved through melodramatic decalarations of independence but it can be achieved by gentle acceptance through cooperative negotiation. Acceptance (recognition) of independent governance can be achieved. While this is not a full grown Kingdom (something a province the size of Kosovo and ethnic structure of Kosovo cannot realistically ever be) it can become something like a 'principality' and so be secure in its own existence.

The alternative being pushed by 'international community' is not satisfactory because of the resentments it will leave behind and the dangerous messages it gives. It is not Milosevic being provocative now, neither is it Serbia. Serbia is now well on the way to functioning as a peaceful democratic state and as such is open to negotiation. I am genuinely surprised at the apparent unwillingness of the West to utilize the possibilities this can bring.

It's as clear as day to all but the Albanians.

KOSOVO WILL NOT BECOME INDEPENDENT WITHOUT THE BLESSING OF RUSSIA.

Who cares what George Bush says. it's actions not words that count, and wha tare the western countries actions, recognition of Kosovo? NO. Extending the deadline by at least another 6 months? YES. So it's obvious that the xtension wil be to try to persude Russia to accept the Ahtisaari proposal, otherwise they would have recognised Kosovo by now.

it's not independent and that fact isn't lost on the USA and EU, hence their determination to get the Russians onboard. No doubt Behar will have new "intelligence" from his high level secret sources, which informed him of Kosovo's independence by the end of MAY.

So it seems like a delay is on the cards after all, instead of rushing headlong into independence. Next we will hear that this will be on the basis that Plan A will be adopted at the end of a set period, but this will also be impossible to write into a Resolution. Russia (maybe China) will veto such a move.

Bush has inflamed this situation tenfold by making it seem like a done deal when it wasn't anyone's territory to give away. Whatever people on this site may think, Kosovo is still legally part of Serbia.

I'll miss out on any analogies because they are obviously too hard to grasp and too easy to distort. But no matter how often facts are denied, they are still facts! In the UK there are many in complete denial that we are part of Europe, but short of floating across oceans, them's the facts.

Genc - sorry if the mention of the word 'floating' offended or upset you in any way. No doubt you will find some tenuous link to a Milosevic speech and accuse me of some sort of assault on your sensitive nature.

Please don't come to me with the same old story about the killings in 1999 and so on: we all know what happend from both sides.

Now, for what I'm concern Kosovo has always been part of Serbia since the 9th Century so there's NO WAY it should be indipendent, it's not right and the 90% albanians should move on with their lives and let us live in peace.

I do personally believe one albanian country is more than enough on this planet.

Bob, whoever you are you sound very diplomatic but I don't think that you a clear cut picture of this part of the world. It's not everything black and white as it may seem on surface. One thing you must keep in mind that evry single day serbian notorius PM Koshutinca calls K-Albaninas all kind of names, such as; seperatist, terorists among many other offensive languages and serbia held elections and K-Alb. were excluded, etc... Bob, serbia wants the land but not the people , which are the rightful owners of the said land,and I don't see it as necessar to mention the murder and mayhem done to Kosovar's in the name of Greater serbia that you did not find the time to include one small sentence in this regard.Therefore, I totally disagree with your diplomatic language of yours.

MARKO, if Kosovo/a was part of Serbia since 9th century, now can you tell me who was living in Kosovo/a before 9Th century and to whom did it belong to than? I hpe I hear the honest to truth answer and not myths.

Ahmet - "Bob, serbia wants the land but not the people, which are the rightful owners of the said land."

Firstly, Serbia already has the land in whatever form that may take. I am sure that the Albanians of Kosovo will actually obtain an extremely high level of autonomy.

Secondly, there is really no such thing as 'rightful' ownership when it comes to law and diplomacy.

As for Kostunica and his 'offensive' language, when he speaks of terrorists and separatists he is talking of those specific Kosovo Albanians who wish to annex part of Serbia's territory, by means of violence if need be. I don't see any leader in the world who wouldn't take a firm stance against this.

You are lucky that you are not trying to do the same in the US. They would not put up with a second of it and clamp down so hard that there would be no room for any type of negotiation.

Blacky - I agree with what you say but am interested to know if you think the US would actually recognise unilateral independence. I personally do not think they would because the stakes are too high. The UK (embarrassingly) will do anything that the US says.

Bob - You are speaking about own governance within the scope of the highest level of autonomy, which I believe will be the case. As an example, Wales is very nationalistic but not independent. It has its own parliament (Welsh Assembly), flag, funding structure, and a broad recognition as being an independent entity. It has the same legal system as England (unlike Scotland).

Things are pretty well accepted by the Welsh on this basis and Wales is referred to as a country in its own right.

There is no reason why this structure couldn't be adopted in Kosovo, which is roughly the same size.

Ahmet Isufi:

you are definitely NOT the rightful owners of that land...

you can repeat it a thousand times, it still won´t be true.

I still don't think that the Albanians have got the message. read the following VERY carefully:

What we wish to achieve in New York is to have a resolution that is based on Ahtisaari’s plan and is acceptable to all members of the Security Council.

Read the last 8 words!!! In other words, no independent Kosovo without Russia.

Miller if we want to have an answer get a book and read it yourself.

My comments has been cut. post it the way it has been posted doesn't make much sense.

Blacky and Kate

You seem to propose/force a solution that people of Kosova will oppose. Why?
This was done in the past and the result of that is was WAR. Do you still want that kind of situation? Do you really think that we that live in Balkans want another war. Sorry but no. We are tired of the wars, so please propose something that people of Kosova will accept and be happy with that. Do take into consideration population that lives in it as well when you decide to propose something. Do you know that in Kosova most of the population is K-Albanians. Do you know that K-Serbs sold their properties and have no place to return? Do you know that during the WWI Serbia drove by killing and terrorising K-Albanians from their homes and colonised Kosova with Serbs from Serbia. Konstantin Jirisek describes this very well in his books.

Someone mentioned the solution same as in Wales. Well, Wales solution would not be practical because people of Kosova do not want to be part of Serbia!
Welsh want to be part of GB!
Ahtisari plan gives more to Serbs that they deserve. I think that Serbia should give the same deal to Albanians in Presheva, Bujanoc and Medvegje.

Jovan

You(if you are a Serb) seem not to know your history at all.

KOSOVA WILL BE INDEPENDENT NO MATTER WHAT SERBIA SAYS.

If Kosovo will get indipendence I will eccept Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, The Basque Region, Cecenia, Trentino in Italy, Kurdistan all to be free to be indipendent a second after Kosovo will.

Honestly I personally admmire our Serbian politicians for being so patiente.

I do love it when pro-Independence contributors link pre-Serb Kosovo and Metohija with the present day Albanian nation. It is a child like approach to history that would be laughed at in acedemic circles.

Apart from disregarding place name evidence that overwhelmingly supports majority Serb habitation in the medieval period (a fact conceded by 'Mr I LUV ALBANIA, Noel Malcom himself) it attempts to link the shadowy and mysterious Illyrian tribes (of which there were many) with the Albanian nation. This is due to the fact that the Illyrian tribes lived throughout the Balkans before the arrival of the Slav tribes and with so little known about them (only limted understanding of the language and an alphabet that has been lost in the mists of time) Albanians have tried to link themselves with this confederate of tribes in a niave hope that it will bolster territorial claims.

Give it up chaps. Illyrians, Thracians or any other bunch of people in ancient times is no basis for a modern nation state to claim land beyond its borders. I mean, if i was sat on a bus would you ask me to get out of your seat because Bardyllis (king of Illyria) sat in it in the 4th century BC?

NEVER ENDING STORY so it goes. next weeks, next months, next years. the west is now waking up to the reality so must our albanian friends. AUTONOMY is the right solution. serbia owns the land, albanians run their own affairs politically, economically and security. EVERYBODY HAPPY, isnt' it???

Bob,

Although superficially it seems that you are in fact promoting a peaceful resolution to the Kosovo issue, anyone that looks at your comment with a minimal amount of concentration will understand that you are saying the exact same thing the politicians in Serbia are saying, which is “Rule Yourselves, We do not want to integrate you in our society, we just want the land (or the appearance of sovereignty)”. You try to disguise these intentions with something he called a “principality” which translates to “autonomy” and that is absolutely nothing new from what the politicians in Belgrade claim they are ready to give us.

You also pretend to understand the demands of the people of Kosovo. According to you the Kosovars was “self-government” and “security”. The fact is we already have “self-government” and we are perhaps one of the most secure places in the Balkans with 16,000 NATO troops. What the people of Kosovo really want (and this will be confirmed by any Kosovo Albanian) is for Serbian sovereignty to disappear from Kosovo forever. We do not want to be linked to Serbia in any shape or form. Self Government and Sovereignty are two completely different things and you understand this all too well but yet you try to insult our intelligence by telling us what WE want. It’s a ridiculous attempt to bend the truth.

On the other hand, the Western countries in general and the United States in particular have finally come to understand that leaving Kosovo under Serbian sovereignty in whatever shape or form will only breed more hatred and conflict.

Too many times throughout history our “principality” was simply declared null and void by politicians in Serbia attempting to gain some political strength through nationalism and we will not be slaves to the whims of Serbian politicians any longer.

Anything short of full sovereignty and full independence is a big NO. What part of “WE DO NOT TRUST YOU” don’t you understand?

You said Serbia is different now, which quite frankly is a ridiculous statement. The largest party in Serbia are the ultra-nationalist radicals, whose official policy was and is “through those Albanians over the Accursed Mountains into Albania” and your current Prime Minister is perhaps even more radical than the radicals. So how exactly is Serbia different in relation to the Kosovo Albanians?

Anthony,

Why not? You told us to get out of our seats because slavic chieftains from the urals sat on them in the 7th centry AD.

Kate wrote:
"Things are pretty well accepted by the Welsh on this basis and Wales is referred to as a country in its own right.
There is no reason why this structure couldn't be adopted in Kosovo, which is roughly the same size."

There is a very important reason that you choose to ignore. We are talking about Serbs and Albanians not about Welsh and English. These two types of relations have nothing in common.
It is so shortsighted to bring analogies around the world by avoiding the most essential point that K-Albanians can never live under the Serbs anymore.

There is no analogy to this case and that's why Kosovo case is unique.

Dino - I was talking about structure and legislation. That was the comparison.

America is now giving itself time to play the issue down and distance itself from this trap which would only cause a rift between EU and US. Anyone who said or believed Russia has no say or influence, well now you have all been silenced. I remember nearly 4 days ago, BUSH saying there will be no more delays and KOSOVO is FREE. I guess he should have said it in Pristina.

Ok, Dino. Then with whom can the Albanians live? Greeks? Montenegrins? Macedonians?

A better answer must exist for a land rip-off then "we can never live with Serbs".

Kate,

The structure and legislation of a territory reflect the actual relationship of people living in the concerned territory. The structure and legislation that regulate the Welsh-English relationship are a result of prior agreement by the concerned stakeholders.

The Welsh and the English can live under one sovreign because they have agreed to live under one sovreign and not because a law tells them to.

People draft and impose laws on themselves to regulate their own relationships, behaviours and structures.

When such a relationship, bahaviour or structure is damaged for whatever reason then laws need to be amended to reflect the new reality on the ground.

Your arguement is flawed and as Dino said such analogies are hightly innapropriate.

Kate,

Did the English killed 10,000 Welsh people in the last 10 years? Did they rape hundreds of women? Did they fired 90% of Welsh people from the public sector trying to starve them?
Did they 8 years ago forcibly expelled one million of Welsh people out of Wales?
Not only Serbia did these to Kosovars, but it still continues to refuse to admit them and apologize about them.
Furthermore it lack the means and the will to reintegrate Kosovo in any possible sot of autonomy.
Trying to compare Kosovo with Wales or any other region in Europe became obsolete in 1999.
The status debate aside, had the English found two mass grave, in the suburbs of London, with 800 Welsh civilians (among them 8 women and a baby) they would have expressed their sorrow and shame.
That is why Kosovars like the Welsh people would have opted to stay with the English but not with the shameless Serbs.
By refusing to renounce the crimes committed by Serbian army and paramilitaries in Kosovo, the Serbian public opinion endorsed them.

Well,so many promises.I think the Americans are loosing a bit in here.
As a born Kosovan Albanian I will respect Americans whole life but at the moment I don't know how patient my brothers and sisters in Kosova/o will be?!
We owe them a lot,we owe them everything.But now is the time to show to us that they really mean business!
Patience is running out even though Kosova/o with the help of UNMIK is running the show.
In this beautiful forum there are commentators that are suffering from"albanophobia".In other words they can't except that these days Albanians can have a say about their lives.This is the biggest problem and will be the biggest problem in the future.
Serbs have to let Kosovan Albanians to express themselves and have to start to respect them as a equal nation regarding the future of Kosova/o,until this won't happened there won't be no future between two nations.
On the other hand there are some commentators that suffer from "serbophobia" or they just can't stand the Serbs.
We have to speak with Serbs,we have to listen and respect their views,but we don't need to agree with them.We have to respect that they are fighting for their country but again we don't need to agree with them.
We have to show to each other more respect to achieve something.
But for me maybe is easy as I live abroad and I see things differently.
Hopefully all of us one day will be cured of this phobia and continue to live our lives.
Peace and Love.

Hi Nick

You didn't read what I said with more than a minimum amount of concentration! Thanks for taking note though.

Serbia is going down a better path, and the international community can help that process through negotiation. I am fully aware that things are not black and white in that region - that is why cooperation and negotiation is the way forward. Unilateral hard-line racially motivated argument has to stop and all sides need to stop being purely selfish. That can be achieved over time if there is a will. There also has to be respect - and I believe it is possible for Serbia to respect and even want the autonomy of Kosovo as underwritten by the international community. The ethnic tensions would soon disappear when the right balance of repect is established. You say you do not want to be linked to Serbia in any shape or form - that is a unilateralist view but it is not going to be true when people trade and work across the borders. In fact the trading relationships are already active.

For a province to become a kingdom is actually pretty meaningless in this case. The kingdom of the Albanians is Albania, so even that way round Kosovo would behave more like a principality. Face it, a principality is essentially an independent state, it is just that it depends on a bigger power for existence - which will always be the international community in the case of Kosovo. The capacity of Kosovo to build relationships with all around is important - it cannot be hate forever.

Cvele,

The US is not withdrawing from their position. Everybody wants a UN resolution. Even the Kosovo Albanians want a UN resolution so its only natural that in order to achieve this common goal some sacrifices must be made.

By relying on the United States promise of guaranteed independence, the Kosovo Albanians are playing it smart. We know the US can not afford to be humiliated by Russia. We know that at this time of strained relations betwen the US and the muslim world it would be disatrous for the United States reputation to betray its only muslim friends and surrender to Russian demands. This is not "the only factor" that determines the relationship betwen the US and the Kosovo Albanians and the US position on independence but it is definately and important one.

The worst thing that can happen in Kosovo is partition. Even if the US surrenders to Russian and Serbian demands the Kosovo Albanians will never agree to restoring Serbian sovreignty, effectively partitioning Kosovo into north and south.

If Mr. Wisner says wait 120 days we will wait 120 days, we trust the US opinion and we know they will soon fulfill their promise.

Nick - "The Welsh and the English can live under one sovreign because they have agreed to live under one sovreign and not because a law tells them to."

This shows that you don't actually understand the structure of the UK at all. There has never been any referendum for independence or to become a republic.

Ruben - Your comments have absolutely no bearing on what I said. As I commented to Dino, I was talking about LEGISLATION and STRUCTURE.

You throw back emotive comments about dead babies and mass graves which means that you have no constructive argument to use at all.

I have said many times on this site that all perpetrators of murders and crimes against innocent victims should be tried and sentenced (but not by mob rule). Whatever the ethnicity of the perpetrator or the victim.

This discussion is about the legislative proposals and diplomatic activity regarding Kosovo. If I had been talking glibly about death and crimes then I would expect your reaction, but you have no need to start trying to horrify.

If you have any thoughts about how Kosovo could function if there is no independence, I will be interested to hear them.

Situation is clear: all Western powers want independence.... Russia wants Serbia to agree to any decision taken by UNSC. So, the situation is clear: break Serbia's will. It'll take time, but that will happen sooner or later. As for breakaway republics in Caucasus, they are already recognized by Russia, but they want western recognition, while Kosovo doesn't care about Russian recognition... they just want to be recognized by the West. Serbia will agree sooner or later to "some kind of independence" and then it will become proper one. Just as in hte case of Dayton. Serbia agreed to Dayton, which is now being dismantled and Bosnia is slowly becoming a unified state...

vrnjak wrote:

"Ok, Dino. Then with whom can the Albanians live? Greeks? Montenegrins? Macedonians?"

Please pay attention what the others write. I said and I quote myself again:

"It is so shortsighted to bring analogies around the world by avoiding the most essential point that K-Albanians can never live under the Serbs anymore."

Do you see the difference between "under" and "with".
K-Albanians can live with anyone as equal, even with Serbs, but not "under" anyone.
For them to be equal they need the independence.

Kate!

Comparing Wells &England with Serbia&Kosova????!!!.
Even in such harmonic situation as it is in UK there is a very strong movement of separatism in Scotland you knew.Suppose England makes attrocities in scotland like serbia did in Kosova what would it look like?

Serbia was good while it was subsidizing health care, education and providing social insurance benefits / welfare. Serbian taxpayers built Kosovo after WWII since there was literally no tax-base in Kosovo. In reality, the Albanians never bothered to pay any taxes or utilities.

The public assets have been plundered by the mafia and the internationals through "privatization." Not a single red cent has gone to the Serbian treasury.

Nobody ever talks about this. Someone has counted the books dealing with Kosovo (on Amazon.com) and out of some 550 books, NOT ONE deals with economic issues.

Anthony Shelmerdine

even Milosevic recognised the existence of Illyrians and accepted that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians. What in earth made you write such a thing. Do not under value yourself?

Albanians have tried to link themselves with this confederate of tribes in a niave hope that it will bolster territorial claims.

(anthony shelmerdine, Friday, 15 June, 2007, 14:37)

Actually all scholars, except Serbs, believe that Illyrians are the ancestors of today's Albanians. Even Greek scholars come to such conclusion. It is actually the Serbs that have tried to disprove, sometimes in hilarious fashion, any Albanian link to Illyrians in the hope to bolster their own territorial claims. Furthermore, given the lack of Serbian history, up until the 19th century, Serbs thought they were the descendants of the Illyrians.

But in all fairness, if you propose that the history of Kosovo's rulers shouldn't be taken into account in the status equation, then there is only one possible solution: Find a status that is in accordance with the reality on the ground. And it just happens that over 90% of Kosovo's population wants independence.

Problem solved

It is not problem of Serbia. Problem is Russia ans Serbia. Serbia would accept independence of Kosova because they can't do anything. Russia pushing Serbia not to accept independence of Kosova. Reason is they Russia invested so much last 100 years to destroy Albanians. Before and after first world war they occupied territory of albanians (Kosova, West Macedonia, South of Serbia until NISUS, South of Montenegro, Norht of Greece). This territory was donated to Serbia, Greece and Montenegro. Hundred thousands of Albanians were killed or deported to Turkey and existing Albania during these operations and after. They will never stop making plans for destroying albanians.

To quote Madelein Albright's words during the bombing campaign: "Compliance, compliance, compliance!" It can take longer than 74 days, but the end result is COMPLIANCE!!!!

Nick....

If by 'us' you mean Albanian then you clearly need help with my 'complex' posting. Albanians were not uprooted by Slavs in the 7th century. A notion of 'Albanian' ethnicity wasn't even formed until the late 19th century. The pre-Slav population in the Balkans are NOT Albanian. Dont you understand that in Northern Albania and the mountains of Montenegro there are clans who see themselves as either Albanian or Montenegrin yet their lineage is from the same legendary figure (i refer to my own clan the Vasojevici, the Piperi, Ozrinici and the Albanian Krasniqi and Hoti).

Kate....

Give it up chuck. I'm Anglo/Serb so i get a very well balanced view of events in Kosovo and Metohija. The xenophobia and rabid anti Serb attitude of many posters on this site will never change. Most attacks on you start with a long diatrade about 1999 without actually forming a clear arguement. You're intelligent well balanced unbiased posts are wasted.

Yeah yeah just keep patronising Serbia and insulting their intelligence. Serbs do not want to join NATO. EU yes but not NATO. It's an undemocratic organisation out of civilian control. 2/3 of people in both Poland and Czech Republic are against the shields but NATO and the Empire do not give a damn about it. 'Democracy' in the West is a pure farce. They can try all they want to trick Serbs with their ploys and manipulations but they are not going to succeed. No matter what. Serbia does not need to join NATO to get into the EU. They think if they keep repeating their lies and manipulations people will start believing in them. Like when they fabricated 'evidence' to attack Iraq. I predict jails are going to be full.

Nick,

The only way that Kosovo will gain independence is if US abandons all its plans for Georgia. Their interest is the pipeline through Kosovo to Europe and thats their only reason for needing independence in Kosovo.

However, they could bypass Kosovo and allow Serbia to control it because it doesnt undermine their cause.

Now, Georgia. Is in a position where they cannot bypass the pipeline through another area, and while they can sacrifice Kosovo, they cant do the same for Georgia.

Russia VETOs the resolution... US declairs unilateraly independence and Russia follows up by doing the same in Georgia.
OR
Russia strikes a deal and abstains while still having its troops stationed all over Georgia and still keeps the stranglehold on EU.

I believe the second is 1/10 while first is 9/10 in likeliness to come about. Simply because its all about saving face for both of them. US is more likely to let up because Russia has played this issue to a point where 85% of Russians are against Kosovo independence.

Now be real about it. Who is more important to the west. KOSOVO or SERBIA with KOSOVO.

Easy for them to put u back on the terrorist list I think.

Kate & Associates

Do not try and compare Scotland-Wales and England, with Serbia and Kosovo.

I won't go into how Serbia treated albanians in the last 10 years or more and how England-UK treated Wales, since somebody else did it very well.


You are makig it sound as if Scotland or Wales have been fighting for independnce for years.

The simple fact is that Scotland or Wales do not want to be independent. And for your information there was a referendum on independence in Scotland in 1979 and it failed msierably, since the majority of Scottish people wanted to remain in UK.

Today we have the same situation where majority of Scottish and Welsh want to remain within UK - even though SNP won in Scotland, the majority of voters voted for parties against independence.

If Scotland or Wales wanted to be independent than England would accept it. But they don,t so there is no comparison. Drop it!

Anthony - Yes, I do seem to be flogging a dead horse. Ooops - that one's going to get me into trouble.

Nikshala - I was talking about a nationwide referendum! AND ONCE AGAIN I WAS USING THE COMPARISON OF THE LEGISLATIVE FRAMEWORK.

Olf and the rest of you myth believing inhabitants of ex communist countries who were spoon fed selective history by state sponsered historians, now discredited, and disregard the research of non political academic historians from the world greatest learning institutes....

Serbs never saw themselves as Illyrian but wanted a pan slavic state under the banner of Illyrian movement. This is due to the parallels between Illyria (a federation of various different ancient tribes) and the Illyrian movement (attempts at freeing Slavs from living under foreign empires and creating a federation of different people)

The ghosts of Hoxa, Zhivkov and Ceausescu mind control lives on. Do you actually believe that your theories actually hold water beyond the Balkans?

Those who give an uncited reference to Milosevic conceding that Illyrians are Albanians proves nothing but their ignorance. Dont quote Milosevic... you hate him!!! What do you do for an encore. Back up something with a spicy Hitler quote????

I attended University College London and that is Europes premier place to study the Balkans.

I am kosova albanian and I dont mind to live under serbia, but serbia should state clearly what autonomy includes. Koshtunica says albanians can conduct their political and economic affairs independently and then goes on to say kosova's natural resources belong to serbia. What autonomy is that if you want all our resources and land? you want us to live on air?

Easy guys....does any one know who's going to be Crvena Zvezda new manager?

Armend

"I am kosova albanian and I dont mind to live under serbia, but serbia should state clearly what autonomy includes. Koshtunica says albanians can conduct their political and economic affairs independently and then goes on to say kosova's natural resources belong to serbia. What autonomy is that if you want all our resources and land? you want us to live on air?"

- I am a Serb and I will speak for myself.

"I" dont want you to live under Serbs... I want you to live WITH SERBS.

When they say Kosovos resources are Serbias that means that Serbias resources are KOSOVOS. We r not interested in bloodshed or anyones suffering. TOGETHER WE WOULD BE STRONGER.

PS I have nothing against new flag for Kosovo as to represent both cultures equally there.

I hope "WE" could be like Canada... and the province of Quebec. Which SHOULD be the model for our constitution if "WE" are to live together. Its not imposible if we can rid ourselves of US, RUSSIA and even EU. Then we could capitalise on the benifits to a much GREATER extent. The only way this can be done is if CEKU is completely discredited and someone who is not a US pawn is installed in his place.

I realise how far-fetched this sounds... but this is the best possible outcome for all. Short of Yugoslavia being reinstated and Macedonia and Bosnia re-joining the federation. Serbia is not interested in Greater Serbia. But in the future of all people within our borders. Our wide variety of ethinc minorities shows that for itself.

Ok Dino. Lets play with the words as you wish. If Albanians can never live in a majority Serbian nation, then what of the Greeks, Montenegrins and Macadonians? Why is it that in all four of Albania's neighboring countries, a land rip-off is in the works in the areas where Albanians are a majority? In other words why can't Albanians live as a peace as a minority (or under another nation as you would put it)? What justification do the secessionists in Greece, Montenegro & Macadonia have?

Yes Cvele, it is far-fetched. Autonomy offer sounds good when they say "highest degree in the world". Now you understand why people here dont believe it. When it comes to details, then it is always 'trust us' and 'all will be sorted'. I will give you an example why people dont believe things have changed in Serbia. 99% of the media and politicians in Serbia use the derogatory name 'shiptars' for albanians. You can never find in kosovo media serbs being called insulting names. Not now, not in the nineties, never. If your mainstream media and politicians cannot deign to call Albanians with their proper name, how can any promise be taken seriously? B92 is an exception, but even the state media use "shiptart' more than 'albanian.' Would you believe that blacks enjoy any rights in a country where 'N' words is used widely in public?

Kate,

Who said anything about a referendum, an agreement does not have to be in writing or supported by any law to exist.

The vey fact that the Welsh and the English are not at each others throats means they have an informal agrement to live together.

Please read comments carefully before answering.

anthony shelmerdine,

"Most attacks on you start with a long diatrade about 1999 without actually forming a clear argument. You're intelligent well balanced unbiased posts are wasted."

So you are implying all of Kosovo Albanians here are unintelligent and you seem to think we dont understand what Kate or you are saying?

Let me tell you something Sir, we do understand what you are saying and we do understand what your country is offering but come what it may our answer is NO and its going to stay at NO.

You who killed 8 thousand people in the largest massacre after WWII, you who treated the Kosovo Albanians like animals accuse us of xenophobia?

You are trying to convince yourself 1999 didn’t happen and reject any argument based on what happened then as emotional or unreasonable.

You think 10,000 people died and almost a million expelled and hundreds of houses burnt do not make for a good argument? Or maybe you think it didnt happen?

Armend

How long did it take for them to stop saying the "N" word in the states. Im not saying its not true... I am saying its not impossible for it to change.

Also "TRUST US" is unacceptable. Obviously EU and ONLY EU should administer the autonomy at first and for as long as necessary. I doubt anyone in Belgrade politician or otherwise would say anything about that.

Everyone who is not blind should see INDEPENDENCE is the worst posible outcome. There will never be peace. This would not only preserve peace but will improve our relations with not only our neighbours but with everyone. Excluding the US. So everyone that matters. (EU and RUSSIA) I say Russia because of energy and resources. Something US cannot supply "us" with.

PS The number 1 PRIORITY in KOSOVO is not and should not be independence. It should be EDUCATION, UNEMPLOYMENT, AND CORUPTION. Nothing else is more important then securing your future and your childrens future. Anyone who would object to this would be ignorent.

Art,

You said "90% of Kosovo's population wants independence". . .however, 80% of Serbia's population does not. And last I checked. . . Kosovo is still part of Serbia. Who's the majority now?

PB
It is clear as crystal that KOSOVO will and technically is indipendent,you guys know that, and my advice to you and everybody ellse blind enough not to see and accept the truth about Kosova

To Nick,

If you don't like being Serbian and living in the Serbian province of Kosovo why don't you just immigrate to another country or go to Albania? If Canada treated me the way you claim Serbia treated you I would take my family and get the hell out of Canada I certainly would not waste my time with a group of unhappy Canadians trying to steal 15% of Canada's land.

And as for the 90% Albanian majority in Kosovo, I read that it is estimated that up to 30% of the Albanins illegally came to Kosovo from Albania in the past 20 years. 3 out 10 Albanins are not even living legally in Kosovo. Also I read on the BBC web site that thousands of Albanins are going to be deported out of England in the coming weeks, because they claimed to be from Kosovo but it was later discovered that they were actually from Albania, that's the same trick Albanians have done in Kosovo but the British will have none of that, and rightfully so! If NATO asked you to prove your legal status in Kosovo, could you prove that you are in fact a Serbian citizen, or would you claim that you have no ID and that you are not Serbian?

"If Albanians can never live in a majority Serbian nation, then what of the Greeks, Montenegrins and Macadonians? "

Dear Vrnjak,
I can assure you this "Albanian Minority" in Greece, is a fairytale. There are ZERO people native in Greece that will self define themselves as albanians....

BUT, and this is a big BUT that the serbs must take benefit from.

There are about 50,000 Greeks in Southern Albania (also called Northern Epirus) who never had any priviledges, they even practiced the greek language secretly at homes,
they were often moved to Northern Albania in order to loose their ties with the greek community, never had a greek university, etc...

That would be someting that we all should look for.

The N.Epirus Problem is a very old problem, and MO it is curently a secret card in the Kosovo table. Greece will play this card sooner or later....

Armend,

It is through "open & honest" dialogue the agreed formula for how autonomy works can be fashioned. The foundations of such talks would be based on objectives that are in the best interest for the province and for the state overall. None of this is allowed to be discussed because the "US & UK" don't wish to admit their wrong doing and the manipulation of the people in the region. To admit their complicitness in Illegal methods would be costly both in credibility financially - especially pertaining to the vast amounts of depleted uranium that they peppered across FR Yugoslavia at the time. But that is another discussion entirely.

What I want to say is that all alternatives need to be discussed so that for those who live in sovereign Serbia can do so in peace and prosper (Win-Win) or else all will suffer again(Lose-Lose).

Regarding the "Shqiptar" word - I finding it interesting that this should be an offensive word given such examples as; "Radio Televizioni Shqiptar (RTSH) is the state broadcaster in Albania, founded in 1938 and operated from Tirana."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Televizioni_Shqiptar

Is it not the Albanian word for Albania? Please clarify and if it causes offence I will ensure I never use it and tell others if ever I hear it - though that would seem difficult to suggets to Albanians given what it does actually mean!

Kate, good analysis and for those who just don't get it realise that Kate is suggesting what must be one of many alternatives in ensuring self governance for the Serbian province. Why don't you respect her for offering alternatives and enter into dialogue of how this could be beneficial for all?

Same goes to Bob - principality is fairly interesting and I believe there was even suggestion of another way forward - Aland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85land
- you would have thought it being so close to home as an autonomous region of Finland that Ahtisaari would have at least given it some thought for Kosovo & Metohija

Anthony, it is clear that you have a better understanding and have done your research on the history of the region and do not base it on the reinventive communist indoctrination (as you rightly point out) "spoon fed selective history by state sponsered historians, now discredited, and disregard the research of non political academic historians from the world greatest learning institutes.... "
- there lies one of the many elements of the Gordian Knot - indoctrination!

Louie, I almost missed your post in the scale of things I sense a reality of the situation. I would suggest that you use your position in the US to foster undersanding that
"We have to speak with Serbs,we have to listen and respect their views,but we don't need to agree with them. We have to respect that they are fighting for their country"

If this realisation occurs within the governing class then I believe the respect will be reciprocal and you will hear many more voices in Serbia ensuring equality will be forever maintained. Maybe it is time that all the peoples are alllowed an opportunity to discuss in open and honest dialogue to find the solution that is agreeable to all - this will not be easy and your right there will be disagreements but surely the last yeasr have been wasted while this has not been alllowed and the sooner such dialogue starts the sooner a real and agreeed resolution will come about.