Still no Kosovo solution in UN Security Council

Sounds like 1, 2 or maybe 3 of the 5 contact group members would not go along with America and probably the UK's plan of unilaterally recognizing Kosovo illegal independence. This is a major blow for Pro-Albanian supporters. I cannot believe that the USA actually had the nerve to even suggest such a thing, and suggest it they did, since that could be the only reason they did not want the Russians there. So its back to trying to convince the Russians again. Good luck!

Kosovo is already INDEPENDENT ,dont see dreams with eyes open ,WITH or Without a UN resolution we will once again declare our INDEPENDENCE ! and with respect i say that we have FULL support of USA . :D

see guys what i was telling in this forum since the beginning is true. the delays will continue as well as diplomatic promises from intl as well as local leaders. US is now bowing to RUSSIA at least in this independence issue. best option is 1 country, 2 systems.

I wonder if this was the plan all along???

Status is continued Serbian sovereignity!!!

Oh by the way I know I said it before but July will be the month that China will hold the UN SC presidency - now I wonder if we would have them want to push this through when the UK counldn't do it in April nor the US in May ?????

As much as Bush huffs and puffs he can't blow the UN house down!!!! There is no legal mechanism and he knows it !!!

Ceku will go the same way of Kosumi I hope the next guy has better negotiation skills!!!

I wish no ill to any Albanians on this site, but the fact is that legally Kosovo is a province of Serbia.

If my landlord treats me badly, I don't then have a case to take his property (this is an analagy - I'm not saying that the people of Kosovo are any more tenants than anyone else, but the issue of legal ownership is the same).

There is no case for independence; it is a dangerous precedent; and the US is way out of line trying to decide (and force) what happens to a chunk of Serbian territory.

I understand the argument that the province is now almost fully Albanian, but if Nato was able to bomb with the stated aim of supposedly creating multi-ethnicity (!!) then I'm sure that Serbia, the EU and the people of Kosovo can peacefully obtain a forward looking multi-ethnic society.

I mean that is what everyone wants isn't it? Wouldn't the Albanians on this site like to live in a mixed culture rich with different languages, racial and cultural diversity like the rest of Europe?

So why the Albanian references all the time? That is another country. For once I agree with the UN that the Albanian flag should be dropped regardless of the status issue. They should have pushed for that years ago.

Tatiana and Princip,

Dont get so exicited so soon. When was Europe untied anyways? In the end they will face they same choice they always have, RUSSIA OR AMERICA and i believe we all know who they will chose.

Lets also not forget that Europe almost unanimously supports the Ahtisari Plan (Independence) the only difference of opinion is how to get to independence, thats all.

Kate,

excellent post. Also, I do agree with the flag - many of the counties of England have flags and Serbia is no different with districts and municipalities having their own flags. Each one reflects their iconic distinctiveness and can be utilised as brands for promoting local produce and tourism. Nothing new there at all and it is clear that the UN are finally starting to realise that they have not been keeping to their word over resolutions that are current and valid. That is no surprise when the US have attempted to undermine an impose their will all the way. At least now all the peoples of Serbia may have an opportunity to gain trust and reconcile with a new found understanding of the State they are in. Hopefully the flag will be respectfull of all ethnicities of the Serbian citizens in the province not just Serbian & Albaninan but all the other ethnic groups such as Roma, Ashkali, Egtptians (Balkan), Gorani, Montenegrins, etc etc... The UN tended to forget that there are others within the Serbian province who all deserve their voice & recognition too!

I once told an Albanian on another forum that if Kosovo is independent already, then why is it that it's taking so many years to make it official in the UN? I also asked why is it that the Serbs were able to make a deal with Macedonia a few years back where the borders were changed. remember? If Serbia has no control over Kosovo, and no say in Kosovo, then how did Belgrade pull off the border change with Macedonia? Against the will of the Albanians. And why did the USA even negotiate with Serbia? If they planned to just give it away, then they wouldn't really need to offer Serbia anything. The reason they did all of this is because they know that without the UN vote, there will be a lot of problems.

One problem, which I can see growing out of this issue, is something called "White Terrorists." Bin Laden once suggested recruiting from Albania. After all, he did have a mosque named after him in Kosovo. I think the Albanians will become angry and probably even blame some Western countries for betraying them in the end. Which will probably give men like Bin Laden a few angry Albanians to recruit. It will only take a couple hundred to side with the terrorists to pull off attacks agaisnt the UN forces in Kosovo.

Until now Russia is on one side and, on the other side, we find UE and USA.
We will wait the Security Council but, as a matter of fact, right now Kosovo is independent or, at least, outside Belgrade's rule (and I do not know how a form of Serbian rule could be reestablished).

“A Russian veto in the UN Security Council would lead to a dangerous situation regarding the EU’s unity,” Steinmeier said, adding that recognizing Kosovo independence unilaterally was "not a good path to take".

“If that does happen, I do not know whether the EU will remain united,” he said."

Steinmeier is so naive ..... a strong and united EU, especially a strong and united EU that is partial towards the US, is the last thing Russia wants!!

NATO, remember that in 1999 you were forced to sign a binding document that affirms that Kosovo is part of Serbia. The chicken are now comming home to roost. Question: will France, Germany, Italy wreck the EU for the sake of Kosovo independence and US glory? Wait for the "international community" to sue for peace.

No, Massimo, Kosovo is not independent. It is a province of Serbia which has been brutally ethnically cleansed under the noses of the UN caretakers running and controlling the province.

They have failed to protect the inhabitants of Kosovo, return the 200,000+ displaced residents, or to comply with the legally binding Resolution 1244.

The US is trying to paper over the cracks and move on, but we Europeans have to live with the mess.

They should do a proper job by integrating 1244 with the Ahtisaari plan, and have it approved through the UNSC and all parties involved, including the Serbian state government and Kosovo regional government. Then things can start to move forward, and the various bodies who are supposed to be protecting all of our security can work together to implement the policies on the ground.

Blacky & Co,

For years you have forecasted that we shall turn to terrorism and islamic extremism however:

Unlike your army and paramilitary groups (I am sure you do not need reminders and illustrations)terrorism is not in our style.

Yes, Al-Kaida and other Muslim terrorists approached KLA, they were vehemently rejected - there has never ever been any credible evidence to suggest the contrary.

Lastly, in my country (Kosova) we are not as obssesed as you are with religion, period.

Regarding the flags,I agree with Kate, our country needs to have a different flag from that of Serbia and Albania which reflects the multiethnic fabric of Kosova - although this will not actually stop the Albanians waving Albanian flags and the Serbs their own flags.

Notice how they are already beginning to spin the retreat:

"...a plan by UN envoy Martti Ahtisaari that foresees eventual independence for Kosovo and recommends the province should have its own national symbols including a flag and anthem."

Serbia should play along with this: "No! Kosovo cannot have a flag! And absolutely no anthem! That would mean INDEPENDENCE!"

The Decider says: "We told the Kosovars that they would be independent. They now have a flag, they have an anthem. Mission accomplished! When America makes a promise, America delivers!" To standing ovations, Ceku is received in the US Congress. The flag is raised, the anthem played. Meanwhile, from Belgrade Kostunica is vituperating.

Now, can we all move along and join the EU?

Catherine,
please, can you show me how Belgrade is ruling its provice named Kosovo or, at least, how the K-Albanians could be pushed to accept in the future a Serbian official/policeman/soldier on the ground?
Right now Kosovo is de facto fully independent from Belgrade.

Kosovari: The Serbs are flying their own flag in their own country; the Kosovo Albanians are flying the Albanian flag in Serbia - there is a big difference!

Glad to hear that you are in favour of a new flag, but in terms of it representing the 'multiethnic fabric' of Kosovo, don't put the cart before the horse.
Become multi-ethnic (foreign troops don't count!) and then speak proudly of it.

Catherien,

I understand the points you making, laud and clear!? However what you have failed to recognise is that there are many other factors which have impeded the return of the displaced people in Kosova ( not just Kosovan- S but Kosovan-A too). UN and Kosovan institutions have made provisions in particular for the Kosovan –S minority to return but there are underlying influences that are preventing them form doing so:

1) Some of the Kosovan-S displaced people have been involved with the mass ethnic cleansing of the Kosovar-A during the 1998 –99 conflict and there is a considerable number that participated directly on the atrocities committed towards Kosovan-A.

2) Direct political influence from Belgrade has impeded the process, as usual they are using the citizens as a means of diplomatic process in their quest to stop the official recognition of independent Kosova.

3) As a result of Belgrade’s meddling they have failed to integrate constructively in the Kosovan institution and co-ordinate the return of the displaced people back to their properties.

4) In large numbers Kosovan-S have sold their properties to their Kosovan-A counterpart/neighbours and went to live in Serbia, Montenegro and other sought asylum in EU countries in a search for a better life chances.

In addition, there was a brutal war in Kosova therefore it will take time for the order to me established and democratic institutions to gain their full potential ( you have to learn to walk before you can run) and as we all know that this process is directly being delayed/impeded by the official recognition of the Kosovas independence.
On these bases, one can argue (that is the stand of the international community) that Russian and Serbian approach towards Kosovas final status is not constructive nor realistic and these demonstrates that both countries have one thing in mine and that is not the people but the political gain, for Serbia politician to gain credibility from the Serbian people and for Russia stronger stand on the international political arena

From "The Economist" - 8/6/7

"Most Albanian Muslims are only nominally Muslim, and do not worship or follow the tenets of Islam. Tirana's new bars and cafes are crowded with trendy youths drinking beer and raki, the local firewater. At afternoon prayers in the beautiful Ottoman Et'hem Bey mosque, overlooking Skenderbeg Square, there were only a handful of worshippers. They were exceptionally friendly, and even encouraged your correspondent to climb up the minaret."

"Four faiths rub along here again, perhaps because, as a 19th-century writer called Vaso Pashko argued, “The religion of Albanian's is Albanianism”.

Some Serbs will ask: How come the Economist has been brainwashed by Albanian propagande and talks of Albanians in the 4th century? Read on:

"If Albanianism was best to be served by converting from paganism to Christianity in the fourth century, or from Christianity to Islam in the 15th century, then so be it. And when the Holocaust threatened Albania's Jewish community, which traced its roots back to Roman times, the country responded honourably. The several hundred or so Jews in Albania, including those who fled there from Serbia and Greece, survived the war, hidden in the countryside. The Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial in Israel records 63 Albanians as “Righteous Among the Nations”, a title recognising those who risked their lives to save Jews. Romania has 53 such honourees, from a population six times Albania's. Russia has 124. Albania is proof to the world that a Muslim-majority country can be proud of a multi-cultural heritage, and welcoming of other faiths."

AND ON WHY WE WELCOMED BUSH THE WAY WE DID:

"in 1919, at the Paris peace conference after the first world war, President Woodrow Wilson helped protect Albania from being furthered partitioned by the victorious allies. Like other Balkan peoples, perhaps like all small nations buffeted by history, the Albanians have a long memory. Happily, they remember their friends as diligently as they do their enemies."

And on that last note, wish you all well!

If the EU does not remain united it is because of Steinmeier. He is notoriously pro-russian just like his old boss Schroeder, who is now working for Gasprom.

Massimo asked "how [can] the K-Albanians could be pushed to accept in the future a Serbian official/policeman/soldier on the ground?"

Forgive me for saying so, but this is a ridiculous question, especially as so many Kosovans here talk about being multiethnic.

If it's done in harmony with international political developments and handled carefully, then there is no reason for the Serbian authorities NOT to be involved with running Kosovo, or at least have direct administrative links through the regional government.

If the Kosovo Albanians don't like this, then they will just have to lump it and get used to it. It is still Serbian territory, and if full autonomy and international support is provided on the ground, and the highest professional standards maintained by the Serbian police and officials, then there is no reason not have a gradual re-introduction of some Belgrade representation.

Just because the Kosovo Albanians do or don't want something to happen, it doesn't mean that they will always get their way.

There are lawless provinces all over the world where people don't want to see various officials and police. They just have to get used to it.

I would think you would be equally hard-pressed to find a Serbian policeman or official willing to try and work in Kosovo. If UN interpretors speaking Serbian can be shot, then how risky will their roles be?!

Plus, your average Kosovo farmer is probably as scared of the KLA as he is of any Serbians.

But people must move on and integrate.

Catherine,

Your comments, quite frankly, sounds like a prayer. You just want the problem to go away and we should "just" integrate 1244 with the Ahtisari Plan and "problem solved"

Why regional government for the Albanians? If you really care about Kosovo then you should try to integrate all of its inhabitants into your society. Why cant we have the 30% of the seats in the Serbian Parliament or 3-4 of your Government Ministries?

Truth is you dont care about the people of Kosovo, neither Serb or Albanian.

95% of the people of Kosovo want independence for Kosovo period, finito, finished.

To Kate; yes with a capital Y, we do want to live in a multi ethnic society etc, etc but we want also to avoid the bitter experiences with pseudo-democrats. We are fed up with those who will be sharing democracy in accordance with their “generosity”.

Well, I do not get it how K-Serbs want to live in Kosova while they look upon to Belgrade. if they have lived here all their lives, then Kosova is their country. Personally, I do not look to Tirana and would never want to have a big Albanian state. Thus, let's get realistic: Kosova will be independent - sooner or later.
And yes, as for religion, K-Albanian are quite secular.

To Kate who wrote:
"If my landlord treats me badly, I don't then have a case to take his property (this is an analagy - I'm not saying that the people of Kosovo are any more tenants than anyone else, but the issue of legal ownership is the same). "

What a poor analogy!
So according to Kate: K-Albanians should start looking for another piece of land since their "landlord" doesn't want to lease it to them anymore!!! Is that right?

Serbia didn't buy Kosovo like a landlord could buy a house and K-Albanians were not renting their land.

But then again let's continue the analogy. When a landlord commits a murder, is sentenced to life-term. Maybe, when that happens to Serbian people then Albanians will withdraw their request for independence.

I am not suggesting anything, I am simply continuing Kate's analogy.

Nick wrote:
"the only difference of opinion is how to get to independence, thats all."

If it goes Marti's way, the Albanians will curse the day he stepped on Kosovo soil...

On the opposite side, Serbs curse the plan NOW, but in the future, will hang on to every word, just to survive...

massimo don't get your hopes up.

You see we Serbs, how nice we are - we let the albanians come from albania to our country, and they repay us by trying to steal our land in return. What a discrace!

Then I always hear this argument how albanians were soo very mistreated by Serbs??? As I recall albanians in KiM had the most money; a lot more than Serbs did. So where did they get all this money from??? I don't think they earned it by working and living regural lives. They drove the most expensive cars - compared to the majority of Serbs who drove domestic ones.

So this freedom everyone had in KiM wasn't enough for albanins, so they decided to start killing innocent civillians and police to provoke Serb authorities so they could retalliate. Once this happened they started using the western media for propaganda.

Did I forget to say america funded the albanians behind the Serbs' backs?

Princip, you're right. Not just municipalities but football clubs have flags and anthems too!
Again, the only difference is that Kosovo symbols (flag and anthem) are national symbols. Symbols of the Kosovo nation (state, if you like the expression better). See general provisions of Ahtisaari's proposal.

Kate: The Serbs are flying their own flag in their own country; the Kosovo Albanians are flying the Albanian flag in Serbia - there is a big difference!

That's exactly what Milosevic and Co. told in the 90s. And he used this argument, apart with others like this, to justify what he did in Kosovo. You only fail short of suggesting the "corrective" measures to stop them waving their national flag. Or are you finally suggesting the old poor Slobo was right?

Last: Kate, you're alienating even the coolest Albanians with your completely out-of-reality comments. By your way of reasoning the whole Europe should have turned back to the pre WWI borders in Versailles.

Catherine or Kate,
I think you are the same person. I find your arrogance - the Albanians "just will have to be used to Serbian policemen again" very funny. It is even funnier when you state that the "highest professional standards are maintained by the Serbian Police". Oh really? You think the Kosovars forgot how they were treated by the same police?
Do you call it professionalism when the same police never finds the perpetrators of ethnic attacks against Hungarians in Vojvodina? Please tell more about this professionalism.

genc - I have not made any comments which are in the least offensive. I have said something that you don't agree with, that's all.
Don't try and paint me as something I'm not and distort my words in an attempt to discredit what I'm saying.

joe YOU sound very funny!

Has any albanian been caught for the crimes committed on Serbs and Churches in KiM?

Joe - You're right. I don't know what it was like. But there is a new government in Serbia and international bodies working on the ground; it would be entirely different.
If Kosovo remains an autonomous province in whatever form, then they have to work with the new Serbian govt.
I am not trying to antagonise by saying this, merely stating a fact.

Catherine,

"Plus, your average Kosovo farmer is probably as scared of the KLA as he is of any Serbians."

What are you on about? the KLA was the army of the people and was supported by all Kosova Albanians. How could we possibly be afraid of people giving their lives to try and liberate us.

Two of my close cousins were in the KLA with Ramush Hajredinaj, how could i be afraid of them?

Kate,

Pls don't misquote me.
Never said your comments are offensive, I said you're alienating even the coolest Albanians with your out-of-reality comments.
I just quoted your words. It's not my fault if they are exactly the same Milosevic used to repeat on daily basis in the early '90s. BTW all minorities across Europe have the right to raise their flag - how on earth doesn't that fit for the K-Albanians (which are the majority in Kosovo?)?

Kosovari, Serbs have a longer memory, hence the reason why we dont trust the Turks. . But lets not confuse ourselves here.

1) You say you are friends of the U.S.? Remember WWII when albania sided with the nazis? The fact is that albania has always been on the wrong side of every major conflict.

2) Terrorism is not the "albanina way"?? Just 3 weeks ago a number of albanians were arrested because they were planning a major attack on a US base in America!! Where do you come up with your statements??
some other points....

1) Serbia has ALWAYS been allied with nations that were on the right side of conflicts. Serbia has always done what was right..that goes for WWI and WWII.

2) Serbia was fighting a terrorist group (KLA) in its own country, on its own land. Why is it that the U.S. can go and fight terrorists all over the world, but Serbia cannot protect itself from an enemy within its own borders?

BTW, more civilians have died in Iraq since the U.S. got involved then in the whole Kosovo conflict. Kocobo je Srbija

"If my landlord treats me badly, I don't then have a case to take his property (this is an analagy - I'm not saying that the people of Kosovo are any more tenants than anyone else, but the issue of legal ownership is the same)."-Kate
This is the most insulting and derogatory remark I have read in a while. I wouldn't be surprised if Miloshevich got up from the grave and wrote this, because it sounds like his rhetoric. How dare you equate a 2 million people to renting the place where they have been living for millennia? This just shows how open minded some of you are and how much you would want Kosova and its people integrated within Serbia. IF YOU WANT THE LAND, SORRY BUT IT COMES WITH THE BAGGAGE, IT COMES WITH ~2MILLION PEOPLE THAT YOU DON'T WANT. AND NO THEY ARE NOT RENTING IT and you are not a landlord there, you are merely a person who occupied it by force, and you had to leave it by force as well, do I have to remind you 1999 Mr. Milloshevich
Peace,
Kujtim (Gjilan, KOSOVA)

Nick wrote:
"the KLA was the army of the people and was supported by all Kosova Albanians. "

This is the problem with perpectives..
In reality, the KLA was a puppet show and instrumen for the CIA...
Holdbrooke and Co. created the KLA, and used them to get at Miloseviq..
The CIA turned the KLA ON and OFF like a light switch...

In the meanwhile, NATO helped foster resentment, let the Albanians feel like they were being saved, and gave you some sort of freedom fighting propaganda to hold on to...

In the meanwhile, the reality was......The US needed bombing, used your politicians, and got their way. In the meanwhile, it's YOU that was totally duped..

The EUNMIK, KFOR have been very soft with Serbs when it comes to north Mitrovica. They have barricated the road and practically separated that region from the rest of Kosova. I suggest Walley Albanians do the same. Barricade the road north of Bujanoc and separate that part of Serbia. Let's see how'd Serbs react?

Kujtim, If Serbia (landlord) did things againt the law, they would be punished and ordered to correct the problem. Serbia has corrected things and is trying to make life great for everyone living in Srbija (kosovo). But as punishment, the land cannot be taken away and given to the people living in it. Serbia has ownership, like it or not! You basically have 2 options.

1) you can stay and live in Serbian Kosovo since Serbia is now up to standards according to the law.

2) You have the right to not renew the lease and leave Kosovo and find a new home. If you want to use the (landlord) analogy, these are your options!

kujtim. I have seen many times on this site some pro-albanian use similar analogies to kates to justify independence so save you mock-horror. Also please show me where exactly the Serbian govt has ever said they want kosovo but not the people. This is a piece of propaganda from the UCK handbook. In reality it is the ethnic Albanians that want the land but without the Sovereign govt or their fellow non-albanian citizens. The 'I beat my dog at home and then go out onto the street and accuse my neighbours of doing it' method of propaganda you use is so 1990's.

Kujtim,
I congratulate you for your very clear message to kate and the other same-minded.
It is a pleasure to see your self-confidence of a Kosovar. I am sure that the immense majority of your fellow citizens think like you. You will never let people bully you, push you around anymore. No going back to tyranny and oppression anymore. I wish you a bright future!!!

If a Serbian Albanian outside the Serbian province of kosovo & Metohija accept Serbian institutions, police & law etc etc... Then what is different about the Serbian Albaninas from within the Serbian Province of Kosovo & Metohija????????


Lets start building the trust and reconcilation that All the Serbian citizens desire and work towards a better future for all!!!

Ok lets call it Ahtisaari 'Plus' the elements of ahtisaari regarding how the province is administered via protection of EU Plus the continued Serbian sovereignity which respects International law, helsinki act and the resolution that was agreed and signed by the UN (including US, UK & France) only 8 years ago!!!

To Nick,

I want a lot of things in my life too, but that does not mean I get it.
So, K - Albanians which in the recent history sided 2 times against there now-friends Americans must be happy with what the situation is, finito, finish as you previously said.

Jack and Ratko,
I am not using any propaganda, I am merely stating the fact that Albanians live in Kosova, we have been here for many many years and we will be here for many more to come. A government be it sovereign or not does not OWN a land, it might manage it, but it does not own it. It is the people there who do. Governments change, states change, but people will be there. Need I remind you of the History where many sovereign governments have come and gone, but the people remain there. You talk about sovereign... then according to you Roman Empire, or later Byzantine, or Ottoman should return because they were sovereign and Serbia, Albania, Bulgaria, etc. declared independence illegally. Wake up, times change, it is not good for your health to be stuck in the past. Come to Kosova and see for yourself and see if your 'great' laws as you put is apply there. And can you tell me why, if Kosova is part of Serbia, then commercial airlines flying to Kosova are not allowed to use Serbian airspace? When I flew to Prishtina from Vienna, Austrian had to go all around Serbia, into Hungary, Bulgaria, Macedonia in order to land into Prishtina. You and your government WANT Kosova to be part of it, but they ABSOLUTELY don't do anything to make the people think that they will ever have a future in a state where Kosova and Serbia would be one. I don't need to go any further than this website, and your comments to understand that.
And oh, don't forget to pay your rent because the Kostunica government might kick you out soon (if you are in Serbia), since the government owns the place where you live.

Ratko,

Serbia up to standards? Since when?
About the lease: to be able to give a lease you have to have a building that you control. As far as the whole world knows you don't have control over Kosovo for the last 8 years because you were a very, very bad landlord.

Tatiana, are you may be still missing 1 country, 8 systems?!?!
Kate, it seems you have mixed up meaning of landlord and renter. In Kosovo case Albanians are landlords and Serbia is bad renter trying to prove and impose its ownership...
Why Serbs doesn't want to / can not live in a mixed culture rich with different languages, racial and cultural diversity like the rest of Europe??? SERBS WANT SERBIA IN KOSOVO, BUT NOT KOSOVO IN SERBIA!!!
Kosovars are living in their country and they fly their flag there, or you would like to have flying their flags in Serbia...

Blacky, right for plaint is given even in juridical cases when crime is proved and penalized...

Catherine, what about applying Ahtisari plan in Serbia as well??? It would perfectly fit to a Serbia's national composition...
Talkinga about Serbian police, in Kosovo Police Service are many K-Serbs who are working as policemen without any problems, but forget about Serbian Police and Army controling and ruling Kosovo, it is over once and forever...

Ratko, your posts about Serbian generosity against Albanians are so ironic and needless, you can have a bit respect at least for many and many children war victims who are killed and masacred in most brutal ways. Their only guiltiness was that they were K-Albanians living in Kosovo, their homeland...

After all these years and wars the best and only solution is:

GOOD LUCK KOSOVO ON YOUR OWN WAY...

Ratko wrote:
"you have the right to not renew the lease and leave Kosovo and find a new home."

These lines make exactly the point why K-Albanians cannot live within Serbia anymore. Statements like these are despicable, insulting and cruel.
That's why there is no fooling with autonomy anymore because there is no guarantee that Serbia can/want respect human rights.

Pjetro!
Thnx for opening our eyes! We were living for so many year in deception. We thought that US and NATO liberated us from the opression of Serb police and military, but it seems that its just what the CIA propaganda made us believe! Thanks for clarifiyng this to us, we really appreciate it. It seems that they want to grant Kosovo independence as the last step of this GREAT DECEPTION. Albanians wake up, dont let CIA trick you!!!

Dino,
You are so correct. People like Ratko just stengthen your resolve. They did not change in 8 years. They would respect the human rights of the K-Albanians as much as they did in the nineties and before.

Dino there is nothing wrong with what i said!!!! Serbia has made great strides in human rights, they are willing to give Kocobo the widest autonomy possible, more than any other nation enjoys.

KOSOVO INDEPENDENCE IS DEAD IN THE WATER.

Ari....

My comment was cut short, and of course, reading it over....
It looks ridiculous..
The last paragraph would have wrapped up my comment, and got my point across better..

Administrators are cutting me shorter more often...I don't know why...

But your sarcasm is appreciated...

Nope, it's not dead. It is swimming, and soon it will reach Belgrade through Danube. Watch out!

That's exactly what Milosevic and Co. told in the 90s. And he used this argument, apart with others like this, to justify what he did in Kosovo. You only fail short of suggesting the "corrective" measures to stop them waving their national flag. Or are you finally suggesting the old poor Slobo was right?

Last: Kate, you're alienating even the coolest Albanians with your completely out-of-reality comments. By your way of reasoning the whole Europe should have turned back to the pre WWI borders in Versailles.
(genc, Thursday, 14 June, 2007, 16:07)

Speaking of ridiculous comments, why don't you try to fly the Albanian Flag in the the United States, Canada, Germany, France or Russia without their flags, see what happens to "your flag"

Kosovo is in Serbia, the Albanian Flag should fly together with the Serbian Flag . This is the protocal of any civilized country.

Perhaps it was because he was greeted with a hero's welcome, or perhaps his sympathy for illegal immigrants is great all over the world, President Bush thinks that Kosovo should be an independent state. President Bush made this statement while in Albania, while being greeted with cheers instead of black masked thugs who compare him to Hitler.

During the Clinton administration we bombed Serbia for 78 days in order to support the ethnic Albanian majority of Kosovo. It sounds like we were, once again, standing up for the underdog. Here's the problem: Kosovo belongs to the Serbs, it always has. It is considered the heartland of Serbia. The Albanians who were fighting for Kosovo's independence belonged to the KLA, a group with ties to Usama Bin Laden, and a group recognized by our own state department as a terrorist group. That is until President Clinton found them a useful poster boy for a group of freedom fighters and had them removed from the terrorist list in 1999.

The Serbian army was fighting its own war against Islamic terrorism, and we sided with the terrorists. Now, I don't want to stand up for the late Slobodan Milosevic. He was a brute and a dictator. But Serbia did not start the war in Kosovo, the Albanians did. The Albanians began illegally immigrating to Kosovo and once they constituted a majority of the population they demanded independence.

Somehow, I don't think independence is what they really want. They want to ethnically cleanse the area of Serbs. Today Serbs are only 10% of the population. They live in ghetto like conditions, unable to leave their fortified neighborhoods without risking violence upon themselves.They are prisoners in their own homes, and prisoners in their own country. The international community, instead of telling the thieving Albanians to get out, is insisting that the Serbs vacate their own country. After this ethnic cleansing is complete, the newly independent Kosovo will most likely attempt to unify itself to Albania.

By President Bush's logic, we should give the southwest back to Mexico. After all Americans are quickly becoming a minority in those states as illegal immigrants from south of the border(here to do "jobs Americans won't do") continue to pour in. And unlike Kosovo belonging to the Albanians, the southwest once belonged to Mexico. Perhaps the U.S. could take a lesson from the Balkans and be reminded the price of open borders, what happens to a country when the cultural and ethnic balance shifts, and maybe we can wonder where the loyalty of our new arrivals lie?

Rewarding illegal immigrants, whether it is with amnesty, or giving them an independent country that isn't there's, is never a good idea.

Serbs and Serbia have to be given something. Right now they aren't being given anything and Serbia is just being dismembered without any input at all.

see that :http://www.24sata.hr/index.php?cmd=show_clanak&tekst_id=20551&context=naslovnica&web_page_id=main_page_news.

My friends, Kosovo is not independent, but rather a puppet of Europe, as it shall remain for a VERY long time, unfortunately for the serbs and albanians alike.

What do you think would happen if ceku asked kfor, eufor, etc. to kindly pack up and leave?

Kujtim - 2 million people living in the Kosovo region for millenia you say?? Gee, if that were the case, then how come all historical records show virtually no Albanians there 1000 years ago? How come every street, town, graveyard, has Serbian names? How come there are hundreds of ancient Serbian churches, and beautiful Serbian Monasteries which are UNESCO heritage sites (and which albanians tried to burn and destroy), all over Kosovo, and no albanian mosques?? How come every reputable historian will tell you that Kosovo is historically, culturally, and linguistically, Serbian. Always has been, and always will be. Bye the way, it's Kosovo, not Kosova. Kosovo is a Serbian word derived from 'Kos' which is a blackbird. The word 'Kosova' means nothing in either Serbian or albanian. It is a pure fabrication, just like your delusions about the history of the region.

All Serb and pro-Serb posters here seem to forget that Serbia lost its right over Kosova eight years ago when t engaged on a brutal policy of ethnic cleansing against the Albanians. This is the basis of the West's stand on future of Kosova and the US and the EU has made that clear.

Best deal for Serbia is to accept the draft and move on in life. I used to listen to the stories from hard line serbs but i was lied to and decieved. Serbia move forward and show the World body that Serbia is a country to do business with. Do not think of yourselves but of the future. Allow Kosovo to go, sooner or later they will be back asking for help.

Why the bickering? None of you have a say on whether Kosovo gets independence or not, unless you actually live in Kosovo.

Kosovo's future will be settled by the will of its people.

Enough of this US/EU nation building to suit their own purposes. Russia and China MUST voice their objections with a couple of vetos in the UNSC, for the world to take notice of. A stand must be made here against these old school imperialists. They have not made the world a better place, for sure. Except for themselves.

It's the 21st century, let's behave like we have advanced as human beings. BTW Mr. Bush, with your record in the Middle East, you are the LAST person that should be giving opinions in foreign policy. Clean up your own country first, if you have a clue, before trying to determine the lives of others which you have NO clue about.

The 1999 war in Kosovo was a national tragedy for Serbia and a political tragedy for Europe. Once again – the first time being the Bosnian civil war – European leaders proved themselves incapable of handling a crisis in their own backyard. Instead, they delegated authority to the US and undermined the power of the UN. Worse still, they enabled the creation of an unviable NATO protectorate in the western Balkans. Eight years on, Europeans are pouring oil on the flames by eyeing the independence of the divided province – again without a UN mandate. It’s hard to grasp the frivolity with which prominent European leaders are handling an historic decision such as a forced change of borders, the first since WW2. The breakup of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia – all federal, multiethnic states – was the result of internal instability and the new status did not affect the ethnic makeup of the various territories. In Serbia’s case however, the international community is seeking to mutilate a European state after having first humiliated its leader. Undoubtedly, Bush has something to gain from Albanian nationalism. But it’s difficult to see what’s in it for Europe. Advocates of the UN plan invoke the ethnic Albanians’ right to self-determination. Kosovo, they say, is a special case and won’t set a precedent. But what about the Serbs living in Bosnia or northern Kosovo? What about the pro-Russian, de facto independent regions of South Ossetia, Abkhasia, Trans-Dniester, Crimea or the Baltic republics? What about the Hungarian minorities in Romania, Slovakia and Serbia? Or even the Basques in Spain and the Flemish population in Belgium? And what about the Turkish minority in southern Bulgaria near Thrace?

Self-determination was once acknowledged as an inalienable right of peoples living under the rule of powerful colonial empires – and not an all-weather solution. Could it be post-colonialist guilt?

For Western technocrats there is no alternative to Ahtisaari because Ahtisaari admitted himmself that he never discussed any other alternative - hardly a positive message!!!

The Russsians need to bring the lack of discussions on alternative solutions as the crux of the matter - if a pre-determined wish of the US & UK is topped from being forced upon Serbia then maybe others can start to create an alternative!!!

How does one know that an alternative does not exits if one does not give it some thought?!?!?!

Nick, that what's Catherine is saying,

"Plus, your average Kosovo farmer is probably as scared of the KLA as he is of any Serbians."

Is in fact RTS during the war don't you remember those news terrible lyings and partisan vs german movies.

Vega,

Yeah, RTS before and during the war was hilarious, it was like watching Borat, but a lot more funn. They would put these old Albanians who they liked to call "posteni siptari" and force them to tell stories about good old Sllobo.

What really ticks me off is when people like Catherine pretend to know everything about what the Kosovo Albanians want.

Stick to what you know. Keep telling stories about how you are the grand protectors of international law. I mean sometimes when reading here i cant help but think if you know where Kosovo actualy is on the map.

Does Catherine thinks that Serbs were wrong to fight for their independence against the ottomans and the austro-hungarians? Those empires were sovereign states as well.
Maybe for her, the history stopped when Serbia won the independence and became an usurper state too.
The fight for independence is timeless.

Resolution 1244 remains in effect until the Security Council votes to cancel it, and that isn't going to happen because Russia won't go along.

That means that Kosovo remains an internationally recognized province of Serbia and that UNMIK remains the ultimate authority in the province.

The United States is putting the Albanians on a collusion course with UNMIK.

What happens if UNMIK and the Albanians have different ideas? If the Albanians declare independence and are recognized by the USA, they will consider themselves to be incharge of Kosovo, but as long as Resolution 1244 remains in effect so does UNMIK.

UNMIK will be internationally recognized as Kosovo's governing authority, but they won't be recognized by the Albanians on the ground.

George Bush shouldn't have opened this Pandora's box. He's making a real mess out of things. He's promising to give the Albanians things that aren't his to give.

Brian wrote:
"George Bush shouldn't have opened this Pandora's box. He's making a real mess out of things. He's promising to give the Albanians things that aren't his to give."

He is not promising anything. He is just re-instating what Security Council special envoy for Kosovo, Marti Ahtisaari decided after 14 months of fruitless talks among Serbs and K-Albanians. Russia and Serbia don't like the results, they shouldn't have agreed on choosing Ahtisaari for the job.

US is playing poker and just been called with a bad hand. The big problem for their irrational behaviour is they will either have to recognise Kosovo and seen breaking UN resolution 1244 or loose face. If they recognise then UN sanctions won't mean a thing, hence their plans for Iran and NK will lay in ruins. EU will find themselves in a legal minefield. Russia will be free to recognise S.Osseta, Abkazia and Transdinesta. In a world where UN becomes powerless, China and Russia will enhance the SCO to counter US. The first world war started with a AustroHungarian Empire under the protection of Germany humilating Serbia. There is rumblings of discontent and a break down of international rules initiated by the necons of US with Iraq war. This time US will backdown because they know UN is probably the only organistation holding back another world war.

If bush & his cronies back up & support the independence of KosovO, then he should grant citizenship to all of the illegals in the States. Don't think if the shoe was on the other foot, he would be so quick to agree just for a crowd-full of cheers!

To Kosovari - why did you welcome bush & your comment - guess it's OK for you to bring the past into the future, but when we Serbs mention the history of OUR KosovO, it's a disgrace. Oh, I forgot, the world is supposed to feel pity for you.

Sounds like 1, 2 or maybe 3 of the 5 contact group members would not go along with America and probably the UK's plan of unilaterally recognizing Kosovo illegal independence. This is a major blow for Pro-Albanian supporters. I cannot believe that the USA actually had the nerve to even suggest such a thing, and suggest it they did, since that could be the only reason they did not want the Russians there. So its back to trying to convince the Russians again. Good luck!

Kosovo is already INDEPENDENT ,dont see dreams with eyes open ,WITH or Without a UN resolution we will once again declare our INDEPENDENCE ! and with respect i say that we have FULL support of USA . :D

see guys what i was telling in this forum since the beginning is true. the delays will continue as well as diplomatic promises from intl as well as local leaders. US is now bowing to RUSSIA at least in this independence issue. best option is 1 country, 2 systems.

I wonder if this was the plan all along???

Status is continued Serbian sovereignity!!!

Oh by the way I know I said it before but July will be the month that China will hold the UN SC presidency - now I wonder if we would have them want to push this through when the UK counldn't do it in April nor the US in May ?????

As much as Bush huffs and puffs he can't blow the UN house down!!!! There is no legal mechanism and he knows it !!!

Ceku will go the same way of Kosumi I hope the next guy has better negotiation skills!!!

I wish no ill to any Albanians on this site, but the fact is that legally Kosovo is a province of Serbia.

If my landlord treats me badly, I don't then have a case to take his property (this is an analagy - I'm not saying that the people of Kosovo are any more tenants than anyone else, but the issue of legal ownership is the same).

There is no case for independence; it is a dangerous precedent; and the US is way out of line trying to decide (and force) what happens to a chunk of Serbian territory.

I understand the argument that the province is now almost fully Albanian, but if Nato was able to bomb with the stated aim of supposedly creating multi-ethnicity (!!) then I'm sure that Serbia, the EU and the people of Kosovo can peacefully obtain a forward looking multi-ethnic society.

I mean that is what everyone wants isn't it? Wouldn't the Albanians on this site like to live in a mixed culture rich with different languages, racial and cultural diversity like the rest of Europe?

So why the Albanian references all the time? That is another country. For once I agree with the UN that the Albanian flag should be dropped regardless of the status issue. They should have pushed for that years ago.

Tatiana and Princip,

Dont get so exicited so soon. When was Europe untied anyways? In the end they will face they same choice they always have, RUSSIA OR AMERICA and i believe we all know who they will chose.

Lets also not forget that Europe almost unanimously supports the Ahtisari Plan (Independence) the only difference of opinion is how to get to independence, thats all.

Kate,

excellent post. Also, I do agree with the flag - many of the counties of England have flags and Serbia is no different with districts and municipalities having their own flags. Each one reflects their iconic distinctiveness and can be utilised as brands for promoting local produce and tourism. Nothing new there at all and it is clear that the UN are finally starting to realise that they have not been keeping to their word over resolutions that are current and valid. That is no surprise when the US have attempted to undermine an impose their will all the way. At least now all the peoples of Serbia may have an opportunity to gain trust and reconcile with a new found understanding of the State they are in. Hopefully the flag will be respectfull of all ethnicities of the Serbian citizens in the province not just Serbian & Albaninan but all the other ethnic groups such as Roma, Ashkali, Egtptians (Balkan), Gorani, Montenegrins, etc etc... The UN tended to forget that there are others within the Serbian province who all deserve their voice & recognition too!

I once told an Albanian on another forum that if Kosovo is independent already, then why is it that it's taking so many years to make it official in the UN? I also asked why is it that the Serbs were able to make a deal with Macedonia a few years back where the borders were changed. remember? If Serbia has no control over Kosovo, and no say in Kosovo, then how did Belgrade pull off the border change with Macedonia? Against the will of the Albanians. And why did the USA even negotiate with Serbia? If they planned to just give it away, then they wouldn't really need to offer Serbia anything. The reason they did all of this is because they know that without the UN vote, there will be a lot of problems.

One problem, which I can see growing out of this issue, is something called "White Terrorists." Bin Laden once suggested recruiting from Albania. After all, he did have a mosque named after him in Kosovo. I think the Albanians will become angry and probably even blame some Western countries for betraying them in the end. Which will probably give men like Bin Laden a few angry Albanians to recruit. It will only take a couple hundred to side with the terrorists to pull off attacks agaisnt the UN forces in Kosovo.

Until now Russia is on one side and, on the other side, we find UE and USA.
We will wait the Security Council but, as a matter of fact, right now Kosovo is independent or, at least, outside Belgrade's rule (and I do not know how a form of Serbian rule could be reestablished).

“A Russian veto in the UN Security Council would lead to a dangerous situation regarding the EU’s unity,” Steinmeier said, adding that recognizing Kosovo independence unilaterally was "not a good path to take".

“If that does happen, I do not know whether the EU will remain united,” he said."

Steinmeier is so naive ..... a strong and united EU, especially a strong and united EU that is partial towards the US, is the last thing Russia wants!!

NATO, remember that in 1999 you were forced to sign a binding document that affirms that Kosovo is part of Serbia. The chicken are now comming home to roost. Question: will France, Germany, Italy wreck the EU for the sake of Kosovo independence and US glory? Wait for the "international community" to sue for peace.

No, Massimo, Kosovo is not independent. It is a province of Serbia which has been brutally ethnically cleansed under the noses of the UN caretakers running and controlling the province.

They have failed to protect the inhabitants of Kosovo, return the 200,000+ displaced residents, or to comply with the legally binding Resolution 1244.

The US is trying to paper over the cracks and move on, but we Europeans have to live with the mess.

They should do a proper job by integrating 1244 with the Ahtisaari plan, and have it approved through the UNSC and all parties involved, including the Serbian state government and Kosovo regional government. Then things can start to move forward, and the various bodies who are supposed to be protecting all of our security can work together to implement the policies on the ground.

Blacky & Co,

For years you have forecasted that we shall turn to terrorism and islamic extremism however:

Unlike your army and paramilitary groups (I am sure you do not need reminders and illustrations)terrorism is not in our style.

Yes, Al-Kaida and other Muslim terrorists approached KLA, they were vehemently rejected - there has never ever been any credible evidence to suggest the contrary.

Lastly, in my country (Kosova) we are not as obssesed as you are with religion, period.

Regarding the flags,I agree with Kate, our country needs to have a different flag from that of Serbia and Albania which reflects the multiethnic fabric of Kosova - although this will not actually stop the Albanians waving Albanian flags and the Serbs their own flags.

Notice how they are already beginning to spin the retreat:

"...a plan by UN envoy Martti Ahtisaari that foresees eventual independence for Kosovo and recommends the province should have its own national symbols including a flag and anthem."

Serbia should play along with this: "No! Kosovo cannot have a flag! And absolutely no anthem! That would mean INDEPENDENCE!"

The Decider says: "We told the Kosovars that they would be independent. They now have a flag, they have an anthem. Mission accomplished! When America makes a promise, America delivers!" To standing ovations, Ceku is received in the US Congress. The flag is raised, the anthem played. Meanwhile, from Belgrade Kostunica is vituperating.

Now, can we all move along and join the EU?

Catherine,
please, can you show me how Belgrade is ruling its provice named Kosovo or, at least, how the K-Albanians could be pushed to accept in the future a Serbian official/policeman/soldier on the ground?
Right now Kosovo is de facto fully independent from Belgrade.

Kosovari: The Serbs are flying their own flag in their own country; the Kosovo Albanians are flying the Albanian flag in Serbia - there is a big difference!

Glad to hear that you are in favour of a new flag, but in terms of it representing the 'multiethnic fabric' of Kosovo, don't put the cart before the horse.
Become multi-ethnic (foreign troops don't count!) and then speak proudly of it.

Catherien,

I understand the points you making, laud and clear!? However what you have failed to recognise is that there are many other factors which have impeded the return of the displaced people in Kosova ( not just Kosovan- S but Kosovan-A too). UN and Kosovan institutions have made provisions in particular for the Kosovan –S minority to return but there are underlying influences that are preventing them form doing so:

1) Some of the Kosovan-S displaced people have been involved with the mass ethnic cleansing of the Kosovar-A during the 1998 –99 conflict and there is a considerable number that participated directly on the atrocities committed towards Kosovan-A.

2) Direct political influence from Belgrade has impeded the process, as usual they are using the citizens as a means of diplomatic process in their quest to stop the official recognition of independent Kosova.

3) As a result of Belgrade’s meddling they have failed to integrate constructively in the Kosovan institution and co-ordinate the return of the displaced people back to their properties.

4) In large numbers Kosovan-S have sold their properties to their Kosovan-A counterpart/neighbours and went to live in Serbia, Montenegro and other sought asylum in EU countries in a search for a better life chances.

In addition, there was a brutal war in Kosova therefore it will take time for the order to me established and democratic institutions to gain their full potential ( you have to learn to walk before you can run) and as we all know that this process is directly being delayed/impeded by the official recognition of the Kosovas independence.
On these bases, one can argue (that is the stand of the international community) that Russian and Serbian approach towards Kosovas final status is not constructive nor realistic and these demonstrates that both countries have one thing in mine and that is not the people but the political gain, for Serbia politician to gain credibility from the Serbian people and for Russia stronger stand on the international political arena

From "The Economist" - 8/6/7

"Most Albanian Muslims are only nominally Muslim, and do not worship or follow the tenets of Islam. Tirana's new bars and cafes are crowded with trendy youths drinking beer and raki, the local firewater. At afternoon prayers in the beautiful Ottoman Et'hem Bey mosque, overlooking Skenderbeg Square, there were only a handful of worshippers. They were exceptionally friendly, and even encouraged your correspondent to climb up the minaret."

"Four faiths rub along here again, perhaps because, as a 19th-century writer called Vaso Pashko argued, “The religion of Albanian's is Albanianism”.

Some Serbs will ask: How come the Economist has been brainwashed by Albanian propagande and talks of Albanians in the 4th century? Read on:

"If Albanianism was best to be served by converting from paganism to Christianity in the fourth century, or from Christianity to Islam in the 15th century, then so be it. And when the Holocaust threatened Albania's Jewish community, which traced its roots back to Roman times, the country responded honourably. The several hundred or so Jews in Albania, including those who fled there from Serbia and Greece, survived the war, hidden in the countryside. The Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial in Israel records 63 Albanians as “Righteous Among the Nations”, a title recognising those who risked their lives to save Jews. Romania has 53 such honourees, from a population six times Albania's. Russia has 124. Albania is proof to the world that a Muslim-majority country can be proud of a multi-cultural heritage, and welcoming of other faiths."

AND ON WHY WE WELCOMED BUSH THE WAY WE DID:

"in 1919, at the Paris peace conference after the first world war, President Woodrow Wilson helped protect Albania from being furthered partitioned by the victorious allies. Like other Balkan peoples, perhaps like all small nations buffeted by history, the Albanians have a long memory. Happily, they remember their friends as diligently as they do their enemies."

And on that last note, wish you all well!

If the EU does not remain united it is because of Steinmeier. He is notoriously pro-russian just like his old boss Schroeder, who is now working for Gasprom.

Massimo asked "how [can] the K-Albanians could be pushed to accept in the future a Serbian official/policeman/soldier on the ground?"

Forgive me for saying so, but this is a ridiculous question, especially as so many Kosovans here talk about being multiethnic.

If it's done in harmony with international political developments and handled carefully, then there is no reason for the Serbian authorities NOT to be involved with running Kosovo, or at least have direct administrative links through the regional government.

If the Kosovo Albanians don't like this, then they will just have to lump it and get used to it. It is still Serbian territory, and if full autonomy and international support is provided on the ground, and the highest professional standards maintained by the Serbian police and officials, then there is no reason not have a gradual re-introduction of some Belgrade representation.

Just because the Kosovo Albanians do or don't want something to happen, it doesn't mean that they will always get their way.

There are lawless provinces all over the world where people don't want to see various officials and police. They just have to get used to it.

I would think you would be equally hard-pressed to find a Serbian policeman or official willing to try and work in Kosovo. If UN interpretors speaking Serbian can be shot, then how risky will their roles be?!

Plus, your average Kosovo farmer is probably as scared of the KLA as he is of any Serbians.

But people must move on and integrate.

Catherine,

Your comments, quite frankly, sounds like a prayer. You just want the problem to go away and we should "just" integrate 1244 with the Ahtisari Plan and "problem solved"

Why regional government for the Albanians? If you really care about Kosovo then you should try to integrate all of its inhabitants into your society. Why cant we have the 30% of the seats in the Serbian Parliament or 3-4 of your Government Ministries?

Truth is you dont care about the people of Kosovo, neither Serb or Albanian.

95% of the people of Kosovo want independence for Kosovo period, finito, finished.

To Kate; yes with a capital Y, we do want to live in a multi ethnic society etc, etc but we want also to avoid the bitter experiences with pseudo-democrats. We are fed up with those who will be sharing democracy in accordance with their “generosity”.

Well, I do not get it how K-Serbs want to live in Kosova while they look upon to Belgrade. if they have lived here all their lives, then Kosova is their country. Personally, I do not look to Tirana and would never want to have a big Albanian state. Thus, let's get realistic: Kosova will be independent - sooner or later.
And yes, as for religion, K-Albanian are quite secular.

To Kate who wrote:
"If my landlord treats me badly, I don't then have a case to take his property (this is an analagy - I'm not saying that the people of Kosovo are any more tenants than anyone else, but the issue of legal ownership is the same). "

What a poor analogy!
So according to Kate: K-Albanians should start looking for another piece of land since their "landlord" doesn't want to lease it to them anymore!!! Is that right?

Serbia didn't buy Kosovo like a landlord could buy a house and K-Albanians were not renting their land.

But then again let's continue the analogy. When a landlord commits a murder, is sentenced to life-term. Maybe, when that happens to Serbian people then Albanians will withdraw their request for independence.

I am not suggesting anything, I am simply continuing Kate's analogy.

Nick wrote:
"the only difference of opinion is how to get to independence, thats all."

If it goes Marti's way, the Albanians will curse the day he stepped on Kosovo soil...

On the opposite side, Serbs curse the plan NOW, but in the future, will hang on to every word, just to survive...

massimo don't get your hopes up.

You see we Serbs, how nice we are - we let the albanians come from albania to our country, and they repay us by trying to steal our land in return. What a discrace!

Then I always hear this argument how albanians were soo very mistreated by Serbs??? As I recall albanians in KiM had the most money; a lot more than Serbs did. So where did they get all this money from??? I don't think they earned it by working and living regural lives. They drove the most expensive cars - compared to the majority of Serbs who drove domestic ones.

So this freedom everyone had in KiM wasn't enough for albanins, so they decided to start killing innocent civillians and police to provoke Serb authorities so they could retalliate. Once this happened they started using the western media for propaganda.

Did I forget to say america funded the albanians behind the Serbs' backs?

Princip, you're right. Not just municipalities but football clubs have flags and anthems too!
Again, the only difference is that Kosovo symbols (flag and anthem) are national symbols. Symbols of the Kosovo nation (state, if you like the expression better). See general provisions of Ahtisaari's proposal.

Kate: The Serbs are flying their own flag in their own country; the Kosovo Albanians are flying the Albanian flag in Serbia - there is a big difference!

That's exactly what Milosevic and Co. told in the 90s. And he used this argument, apart with others like this, to justify what he did in Kosovo. You only fail short of suggesting the "corrective" measures to stop them waving their national flag. Or are you finally suggesting the old poor Slobo was right?

Last: Kate, you're alienating even the coolest Albanians with your completely out-of-reality comments. By your way of reasoning the whole Europe should have turned back to the pre WWI borders in Versailles.

Catherine or Kate,
I think you are the same person. I find your arrogance - the Albanians "just will have to be used to Serbian policemen again" very funny. It is even funnier when you state that the "highest professional standards are maintained by the Serbian Police". Oh really? You think the Kosovars forgot how they were treated by the same police?
Do you call it professionalism when the same police never finds the perpetrators of ethnic attacks against Hungarians in Vojvodina? Please tell more about this professionalism.

genc - I have not made any comments which are in the least offensive. I have said something that you don't agree with, that's all.
Don't try and paint me as something I'm not and distort my words in an attempt to discredit what I'm saying.

joe YOU sound very funny!

Has any albanian been caught for the crimes committed on Serbs and Churches in KiM?

Joe - You're right. I don't know what it was like. But there is a new government in Serbia and international bodies working on the ground; it would be entirely different.
If Kosovo remains an autonomous province in whatever form, then they have to work with the new Serbian govt.
I am not trying to antagonise by saying this, merely stating a fact.

Catherine,

"Plus, your average Kosovo farmer is probably as scared of the KLA as he is of any Serbians."

What are you on about? the KLA was the army of the people and was supported by all Kosova Albanians. How could we possibly be afraid of people giving their lives to try and liberate us.

Two of my close cousins were in the KLA with Ramush Hajredinaj, how could i be afraid of them?

Kate,

Pls don't misquote me.
Never said your comments are offensive, I said you're alienating even the coolest Albanians with your out-of-reality comments.
I just quoted your words. It's not my fault if they are exactly the same Milosevic used to repeat on daily basis in the early '90s. BTW all minorities across Europe have the right to raise their flag - how on earth doesn't that fit for the K-Albanians (which are the majority in Kosovo?)?

Kosovari, Serbs have a longer memory, hence the reason why we dont trust the Turks. . But lets not confuse ourselves here.

1) You say you are friends of the U.S.? Remember WWII when albania sided with the nazis? The fact is that albania has always been on the wrong side of every major conflict.

2) Terrorism is not the "albanina way"?? Just 3 weeks ago a number of albanians were arrested because they were planning a major attack on a US base in America!! Where do you come up with your statements??
some other points....

1) Serbia has ALWAYS been allied with nations that were on the right side of conflicts. Serbia has always done what was right..that goes for WWI and WWII.

2) Serbia was fighting a terrorist group (KLA) in its own country, on its own land. Why is it that the U.S. can go and fight terrorists all over the world, but Serbia cannot protect itself from an enemy within its own borders?

BTW, more civilians have died in Iraq since the U.S. got involved then in the whole Kosovo conflict. Kocobo je Srbija

"If my landlord treats me badly, I don't then have a case to take his property (this is an analagy - I'm not saying that the people of Kosovo are any more tenants than anyone else, but the issue of legal ownership is the same)."-Kate
This is the most insulting and derogatory remark I have read in a while. I wouldn't be surprised if Miloshevich got up from the grave and wrote this, because it sounds like his rhetoric. How dare you equate a 2 million people to renting the place where they have been living for millennia? This just shows how open minded some of you are and how much you would want Kosova and its people integrated within Serbia. IF YOU WANT THE LAND, SORRY BUT IT COMES WITH THE BAGGAGE, IT COMES WITH ~2MILLION PEOPLE THAT YOU DON'T WANT. AND NO THEY ARE NOT RENTING IT and you are not a landlord there, you are merely a person who occupied it by force, and you had to leave it by force as well, do I have to remind you 1999 Mr. Milloshevich
Peace,
Kujtim (Gjilan, KOSOVA)

Nick wrote:
"the KLA was the army of the people and was supported by all Kosova Albanians. "

This is the problem with perpectives..
In reality, the KLA was a puppet show and instrumen for the CIA...
Holdbrooke and Co. created the KLA, and used them to get at Miloseviq..
The CIA turned the KLA ON and OFF like a light switch...

In the meanwhile, NATO helped foster resentment, let the Albanians feel like they were being saved, and gave you some sort of freedom fighting propaganda to hold on to...

In the meanwhile, the reality was......The US needed bombing, used your politicians, and got their way. In the meanwhile, it's YOU that was totally duped..

The EUNMIK, KFOR have been very soft with Serbs when it comes to north Mitrovica. They have barricated the road and practically separated that region from the rest of Kosova. I suggest Walley Albanians do the same. Barricade the road north of Bujanoc and separate that part of Serbia. Let's see how'd Serbs react?

Kujtim, If Serbia (landlord) did things againt the law, they would be punished and ordered to correct the problem. Serbia has corrected things and is trying to make life great for everyone living in Srbija (kosovo). But as punishment, the land cannot be taken away and given to the people living in it. Serbia has ownership, like it or not! You basically have 2 options.

1) you can stay and live in Serbian Kosovo since Serbia is now up to standards according to the law.

2) You have the right to not renew the lease and leave Kosovo and find a new home. If you want to use the (landlord) analogy, these are your options!

kujtim. I have seen many times on this site some pro-albanian use similar analogies to kates to justify independence so save you mock-horror. Also please show me where exactly the Serbian govt has ever said they want kosovo but not the people. This is a piece of propaganda from the UCK handbook. In reality it is the ethnic Albanians that want the land but without the Sovereign govt or their fellow non-albanian citizens. The 'I beat my dog at home and then go out onto the street and accuse my neighbours of doing it' method of propaganda you use is so 1990's.

Kujtim,
I congratulate you for your very clear message to kate and the other same-minded.
It is a pleasure to see your self-confidence of a Kosovar. I am sure that the immense majority of your fellow citizens think like you. You will never let people bully you, push you around anymore. No going back to tyranny and oppression anymore. I wish you a bright future!!!

If a Serbian Albanian outside the Serbian province of kosovo & Metohija accept Serbian institutions, police & law etc etc... Then what is different about the Serbian Albaninas from within the Serbian Province of Kosovo & Metohija????????


Lets start building the trust and reconcilation that All the Serbian citizens desire and work towards a better future for all!!!

Ok lets call it Ahtisaari 'Plus' the elements of ahtisaari regarding how the province is administered via protection of EU Plus the continued Serbian sovereignity which respects International law, helsinki act and the resolution that was agreed and signed by the UN (including US, UK & France) only 8 years ago!!!

To Nick,

I want a lot of things in my life too, but that does not mean I get it.
So, K - Albanians which in the recent history sided 2 times against there now-friends Americans must be happy with what the situation is, finito, finish as you previously said.

Jack and Ratko,
I am not using any propaganda, I am merely stating the fact that Albanians live in Kosova, we have been here for many many years and we will be here for many more to come. A government be it sovereign or not does not OWN a land, it might manage it, but it does not own it. It is the people there who do. Governments change, states change, but people will be there. Need I remind you of the History where many sovereign governments have come and gone, but the people remain there. You talk about sovereign... then according to you Roman Empire, or later Byzantine, or Ottoman should return because they were sovereign and Serbia, Albania, Bulgaria, etc. declared independence illegally. Wake up, times change, it is not good for your health to be stuck in the past. Come to Kosova and see for yourself and see if your 'great' laws as you put is apply there. And can you tell me why, if Kosova is part of Serbia, then commercial airlines flying to Kosova are not allowed to use Serbian airspace? When I flew to Prishtina from Vienna, Austrian had to go all around Serbia, into Hungary, Bulgaria, Macedonia in order to land into Prishtina. You and your government WANT Kosova to be part of it, but they ABSOLUTELY don't do anything to make the people think that they will ever have a future in a state where Kosova and Serbia would be one. I don't need to go any further than this website, and your comments to understand that.
And oh, don't forget to pay your rent because the Kostunica government might kick you out soon (if you are in Serbia), since the government owns the place where you live.

Ratko,

Serbia up to standards? Since when?
About the lease: to be able to give a lease you have to have a building that you control. As far as the whole world knows you don't have control over Kosovo for the last 8 years because you were a very, very bad landlord.

Tatiana, are you may be still missing 1 country, 8 systems?!?!
Kate, it seems you have mixed up meaning of landlord and renter. In Kosovo case Albanians are landlords and Serbia is bad renter trying to prove and impose its ownership...
Why Serbs doesn't want to / can not live in a mixed culture rich with different languages, racial and cultural diversity like the rest of Europe??? SERBS WANT SERBIA IN KOSOVO, BUT NOT KOSOVO IN SERBIA!!!
Kosovars are living in their country and they fly their flag there, or you would like to have flying their flags in Serbia...

Blacky, right for plaint is given even in juridical cases when crime is proved and penalized...

Catherine, what about applying Ahtisari plan in Serbia as well??? It would perfectly fit to a Serbia's national composition...
Talkinga about Serbian police, in Kosovo Police Service are many K-Serbs who are working as policemen without any problems, but forget about Serbian Police and Army controling and ruling Kosovo, it is over once and forever...

Ratko, your posts about Serbian generosity against Albanians are so ironic and needless, you can have a bit respect at least for many and many children war victims who are killed and masacred in most brutal ways. Their only guiltiness was that they were K-Albanians living in Kosovo, their homeland...

After all these years and wars the best and only solution is:

GOOD LUCK KOSOVO ON YOUR OWN WAY...

Ratko wrote:
"you have the right to not renew the lease and leave Kosovo and find a new home."

These lines make exactly the point why K-Albanians cannot live within Serbia anymore. Statements like these are despicable, insulting and cruel.
That's why there is no fooling with autonomy anymore because there is no guarantee that Serbia can/want respect human rights.

Pjetro!
Thnx for opening our eyes! We were living for so many year in deception. We thought that US and NATO liberated us from the opression of Serb police and military, but it seems that its just what the CIA propaganda made us believe! Thanks for clarifiyng this to us, we really appreciate it. It seems that they want to grant Kosovo independence as the last step of this GREAT DECEPTION. Albanians wake up, dont let CIA trick you!!!

Dino,
You are so correct. People like Ratko just stengthen your resolve. They did not change in 8 years. They would respect the human rights of the K-Albanians as much as they did in the nineties and before.

Dino there is nothing wrong with what i said!!!! Serbia has made great strides in human rights, they are willing to give Kocobo the widest autonomy possible, more than any other nation enjoys.

KOSOVO INDEPENDENCE IS DEAD IN THE WATER.

Ari....

My comment was cut short, and of course, reading it over....
It looks ridiculous..
The last paragraph would have wrapped up my comment, and got my point across better..

Administrators are cutting me shorter more often...I don't know why...

But your sarcasm is appreciated...

Nope, it's not dead. It is swimming, and soon it will reach Belgrade through Danube. Watch out!

That's exactly what Milosevic and Co. told in the 90s. And he used this argument, apart with others like this, to justify what he did in Kosovo. You only fail short of suggesting the "corrective" measures to stop them waving their national flag. Or are you finally suggesting the old poor Slobo was right?

Last: Kate, you're alienating even the coolest Albanians with your completely out-of-reality comments. By your way of reasoning the whole Europe should have turned back to the pre WWI borders in Versailles.
(genc, Thursday, 14 June, 2007, 16:07)

Speaking of ridiculous comments, why don't you try to fly the Albanian Flag in the the United States, Canada, Germany, France or Russia without their flags, see what happens to "your flag"

Kosovo is in Serbia, the Albanian Flag should fly together with the Serbian Flag . This is the protocal of any civilized country.

Perhaps it was because he was greeted with a hero's welcome, or perhaps his sympathy for illegal immigrants is great all over the world, President Bush thinks that Kosovo should be an independent state. President Bush made this statement while in Albania, while being greeted with cheers instead of black masked thugs who compare him to Hitler.

During the Clinton administration we bombed Serbia for 78 days in order to support the ethnic Albanian majority of Kosovo. It sounds like we were, once again, standing up for the underdog. Here's the problem: Kosovo belongs to the Serbs, it always has. It is considered the heartland of Serbia. The Albanians who were fighting for Kosovo's independence belonged to the KLA, a group with ties to Usama Bin Laden, and a group recognized by our own state department as a terrorist group. That is until President Clinton found them a useful poster boy for a group of freedom fighters and had them removed from the terrorist list in 1999.

The Serbian army was fighting its own war against Islamic terrorism, and we sided with the terrorists. Now, I don't want to stand up for the late Slobodan Milosevic. He was a brute and a dictator. But Serbia did not start the war in Kosovo, the Albanians did. The Albanians began illegally immigrating to Kosovo and once they constituted a majority of the population they demanded independence.

Somehow, I don't think independence is what they really want. They want to ethnically cleanse the area of Serbs. Today Serbs are only 10% of the population. They live in ghetto like conditions, unable to leave their fortified neighborhoods without risking violence upon themselves.They are prisoners in their own homes, and prisoners in their own country. The international community, instead of telling the thieving Albanians to get out, is insisting that the Serbs vacate their own country. After this ethnic cleansing is complete, the newly independent Kosovo will most likely attempt to unify itself to Albania.

By President Bush's logic, we should give the southwest back to Mexico. After all Americans are quickly becoming a minority in those states as illegal immigrants from south of the border(here to do "jobs Americans won't do") continue to pour in. And unlike Kosovo belonging to the Albanians, the southwest once belonged to Mexico. Perhaps the U.S. could take a lesson from the Balkans and be reminded the price of open borders, what happens to a country when the cultural and ethnic balance shifts, and maybe we can wonder where the loyalty of our new arrivals lie?

Rewarding illegal immigrants, whether it is with amnesty, or giving them an independent country that isn't there's, is never a good idea.

Serbs and Serbia have to be given something. Right now they aren't being given anything and Serbia is just being dismembered without any input at all.

see that :http://www.24sata.hr/index.php?cmd=show_clanak&tekst_id=20551&context=naslovnica&web_page_id=main_page_news.

My friends, Kosovo is not independent, but rather a puppet of Europe, as it shall remain for a VERY long time, unfortunately for the serbs and albanians alike.

What do you think would happen if ceku asked kfor, eufor, etc. to kindly pack up and leave?

Kujtim - 2 million people living in the Kosovo region for millenia you say?? Gee, if that were the case, then how come all historical records show virtually no Albanians there 1000 years ago? How come every street, town, graveyard, has Serbian names? How come there are hundreds of ancient Serbian churches, and beautiful Serbian Monasteries which are UNESCO heritage sites (and which albanians tried to burn and destroy), all over Kosovo, and no albanian mosques?? How come every reputable historian will tell you that Kosovo is historically, culturally, and linguistically, Serbian. Always has been, and always will be. Bye the way, it's Kosovo, not Kosova. Kosovo is a Serbian word derived from 'Kos' which is a blackbird. The word 'Kosova' means nothing in either Serbian or albanian. It is a pure fabrication, just like your delusions about the history of the region.

All Serb and pro-Serb posters here seem to forget that Serbia lost its right over Kosova eight years ago when t engaged on a brutal policy of ethnic cleansing against the Albanians. This is the basis of the West's stand on future of Kosova and the US and the EU has made that clear.

Best deal for Serbia is to accept the draft and move on in life. I used to listen to the stories from hard line serbs but i was lied to and decieved. Serbia move forward and show the World body that Serbia is a country to do business with. Do not think of yourselves but of the future. Allow Kosovo to go, sooner or later they will be back asking for help.

Why the bickering? None of you have a say on whether Kosovo gets independence or not, unless you actually live in Kosovo.

Kosovo's future will be settled by the will of its people.

Enough of this US/EU nation building to suit their own purposes. Russia and China MUST voice their objections with a couple of vetos in the UNSC, for the world to take notice of. A stand must be made here against these old school imperialists. They have not made the world a better place, for sure. Except for themselves.

It's the 21st century, let's behave like we have advanced as human beings. BTW Mr. Bush, with your record in the Middle East, you are the LAST person that should be giving opinions in foreign policy. Clean up your own country first, if you have a clue, before trying to determine the lives of others which you have NO clue about.

The 1999 war in Kosovo was a national tragedy for Serbia and a political tragedy for Europe. Once again – the first time being the Bosnian civil war – European leaders proved themselves incapable of handling a crisis in their own backyard. Instead, they delegated authority to the US and undermined the power of the UN. Worse still, they enabled the creation of an unviable NATO protectorate in the western Balkans. Eight years on, Europeans are pouring oil on the flames by eyeing the independence of the divided province – again without a UN mandate. It’s hard to grasp the frivolity with which prominent European leaders are handling an historic decision such as a forced change of borders, the first since WW2. The breakup of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia – all federal, multiethnic states – was the result of internal instability and the new status did not affect the ethnic makeup of the various territories. In Serbia’s case however, the international community is seeking to mutilate a European state after having first humiliated its leader. Undoubtedly, Bush has something to gain from Albanian nationalism. But it’s difficult to see what’s in it for Europe. Advocates of the UN plan invoke the ethnic Albanians’ right to self-determination. Kosovo, they say, is a special case and won’t set a precedent. But what about the Serbs living in Bosnia or northern Kosovo? What about the pro-Russian, de facto independent regions of South Ossetia, Abkhasia, Trans-Dniester, Crimea or the Baltic republics? What about the Hungarian minorities in Romania, Slovakia and Serbia? Or even the Basques in Spain and the Flemish population in Belgium? And what about the Turkish minority in southern Bulgaria near Thrace?

Self-determination was once acknowledged as an inalienable right of peoples living under the rule of powerful colonial empires – and not an all-weather solution. Could it be post-colonialist guilt?

For Western technocrats there is no alternative to Ahtisaari because Ahtisaari admitted himmself that he never discussed any other alternative - hardly a positive message!!!

The Russsians need to bring the lack of discussions on alternative solutions as the crux of the matter - if a pre-determined wish of the US & UK is topped from being forced upon Serbia then maybe others can start to create an alternative!!!

How does one know that an alternative does not exits if one does not give it some thought?!?!?!

Nick, that what's Catherine is saying,

"Plus, your average Kosovo farmer is probably as scared of the KLA as he is of any Serbians."

Is in fact RTS during the war don't you remember those news terrible lyings and partisan vs german movies.

Vega,

Yeah, RTS before and during the war was hilarious, it was like watching Borat, but a lot more funn. They would put these old Albanians who they liked to call "posteni siptari" and force them to tell stories about good old Sllobo.

What really ticks me off is when people like Catherine pretend to know everything about what the Kosovo Albanians want.

Stick to what you know. Keep telling stories about how you are the grand protectors of international law. I mean sometimes when reading here i cant help but think if you know where Kosovo actualy is on the map.

Does Catherine thinks that Serbs were wrong to fight for their independence against the ottomans and the austro-hungarians? Those empires were sovereign states as well.
Maybe for her, the history stopped when Serbia won the independence and became an usurper state too.
The fight for independence is timeless.

Resolution 1244 remains in effect until the Security Council votes to cancel it, and that isn't going to happen because Russia won't go along.

That means that Kosovo remains an internationally recognized province of Serbia and that UNMIK remains the ultimate authority in the province.

The United States is putting the Albanians on a collusion course with UNMIK.

What happens if UNMIK and the Albanians have different ideas? If the Albanians declare independence and are recognized by the USA, they will consider themselves to be incharge of Kosovo, but as long as Resolution 1244 remains in effect so does UNMIK.

UNMIK will be internationally recognized as Kosovo's governing authority, but they won't be recognized by the Albanians on the ground.

George Bush shouldn't have opened this Pandora's box. He's making a real mess out of things. He's promising to give the Albanians things that aren't his to give.

Brian wrote:
"George Bush shouldn't have opened this Pandora's box. He's making a real mess out of things. He's promising to give the Albanians things that aren't his to give."

He is not promising anything. He is just re-instating what Security Council special envoy for Kosovo, Marti Ahtisaari decided after 14 months of fruitless talks among Serbs and K-Albanians. Russia and Serbia don't like the results, they shouldn't have agreed on choosing Ahtisaari for the job.

US is playing poker and just been called with a bad hand. The big problem for their irrational behaviour is they will either have to recognise Kosovo and seen breaking UN resolution 1244 or loose face. If they recognise then UN sanctions won't mean a thing, hence their plans for Iran and NK will lay in ruins. EU will find themselves in a legal minefield. Russia will be free to recognise S.Osseta, Abkazia and Transdinesta. In a world where UN becomes powerless, China and Russia will enhance the SCO to counter US. The first world war started with a AustroHungarian Empire under the protection of Germany humilating Serbia. There is rumblings of discontent and a break down of international rules initiated by the necons of US with Iraq war. This time US will backdown because they know UN is probably the only organistation holding back another world war.

If bush & his cronies back up & support the independence of KosovO, then he should grant citizenship to all of the illegals in the States. Don't think if the shoe was on the other foot, he would be so quick to agree just for a crowd-full of cheers!

To Kosovari - why did you welcome bush & your comment - guess it's OK for you to bring the past into the future, but when we Serbs mention the history of OUR KosovO, it's a disgrace. Oh, I forgot, the world is supposed to feel pity for you.