Tuesday, 05.06.2007.
12:34
Prime Minister Vojislav Koštunica says the U.S. announcement of a Kosovo vote at the UN is "inappropriate and damaging."
Izvor: B92
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To: Walter
I was on the ground. I worked for Macleans magazine as a photographer and I have seen first hand the truth just as Canadien Major-General Lewis MacKenzie did. I later met my wife to be in Serbia. She is a Serbian.
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Victor tells us that he does not lie but Victor does not tell the truth either, People lie many different ways just like you victor. They lie by omission, they lie by emphasizing one thing and de-emphasizing something else, they lie by writing reams of material on their argument but two sentences on its rebuttal, they lie by using innuendo and euphemisms, they lie by using pleasant words about things they agree with and unpleasant words with what they oppose, they lie by using statistics without evidence, do I need to go on. You have done all these things Victor in your posts. You are so predictable since you lie by not telling the whole story.
Let’s take a look at this one more time. Vukovar, Krajina and Srebrenica are similar in the cause and effect. I have never claimed that people did not die here or that only Muslims and Croats died as you say. The question is why they died? Here is why they died Victor. There were many Orich’s in the Vukovar hospital that killed Serbian men women and children and the surrounding areas in the same way as Orich did in and around Srebrenica. There are many Orich’s in government in Zagred and Pristina that started this mess.
Bill Schiller in the Toronto Star of 16 July 1995, wrote of Oric::
“On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his living room watching a shocking video version of what might have been called Nasir Oric’s Greatest Hits. There were burning houses, dead bodies, severed heads, and people fleeing. Oric grinned throughout admiring his handiwork. ‘We ambushed them,’ he said when a number of dead Serbs appeared on the screen. The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives: ‘We launched those guys to the moon,’ he boasted. When a footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: ‘We killed 114 Serbs there.’ Later there were celebrations, with singers with wobbly voices chanting his praises.”
Note the 114 Victor does that satisfy you? In grade one my teacher a Muslim man said that 1 + 1+ 10 + 88 = 100 and again in grade four my Serbian Math teacher said the same thing so when I came to Canada my grade five teacher also said that these numbers add up to 100. Add up all the bodies in Krajina and Bosnia of dead Serbian men and women and children and you will see how quickly they add up to many hundreds. This is also true of course of Muslim and Croat casualties. Why was this necessary. It was not. Its people like you Victor that see a difference in numbers. For me one killed is one too many I consider all Yugoslavs as my former contrymen and brothers. Even you Victor I consider as a brother but than Able and Cain were brothers as well. I know which one I am. Google Blagoja Blagojevic and you will see why people died.
Hercegovina is full of Karst pits or jamas that were sealed by Tito in order to promote brotherhood and unity. We almost got there Victor but unfortunately the WWII generation who pined for the Yugoslavia created by the Nazis opened those karst pits and Muslims and Croats taunted the Serbs who went there to retreve the remains of their forfathers with “take the dead out so we have more room for you”.
Serbs never wanted this war, You know that and I know that. Tudjman , Kucan, Isetbegovic and Cecu are on record speaking in favour of the war. In a telephone conversation between Karadjic and Milosevic , Milosevich is asking Karadjic to do everything possioble to prevent war in Bosnia and Karadjic replies “I will do everything that I can to stop the people from rising but Iset wants war and it is out of my hands”. This was a telephone conversation recorded by the CIA and played at The Hague.
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Matthew and Canadian thank you for your praise but really the praise should go to others who were on the ground in the region. . Matthew I have seen your figures on Jasenovac but the figure I give comes from Jasenovac by Carl Savich a history professor who writes: “In BespucaÝ povjesne zbiljnosti (The Wasteland of Historical Reality), Franjo Tudjman stated that ''about 60,000 perished in all the camps and prisons.'' According to Tudjman, 30,000 victims died at the Jasenovac camp. In 1952, the Union of Jewish Councils of Yugoslavia, relying on the reports of Jewish survivors, concluded that, in the Jasenovac camp alone, ''500,000-600,000 people were slaughtered, among whom were about 20,000 Jews.'' Menachem Shelah in The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990) gives the following figure:Ý ''Some six hundred thousand people were murdered at Jasenovac, mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and opponents of the Ustasha regime. The number of Jewish victims was between twenty thousand and twenty-five thousand.'' The Ustasha commander at Jasenovac, Frater Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic, during questioning after the war, stated that ''according to reports of Maks Luburic... about a half million Serbs were killed in the NDH during these four years.'' On October 20, 1994, Brussels Archbishop Cardinal Godfried Danneels in an interview to Vatican Radio, stated that ''even today it is impossible to say how many Serbs were assassinated in Croatian concentration camps in World War II, but for certain the number must have been over half a million persons.''
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"Find me one example where the Muslims have massacred 200, 300, 500, in one day.
(Victor, Friday, 8 June, 2007, 03:36)"
Victor you're claiming an average of about 500 every single day at the beginning of the war for 4 months followed by an average of about 11 people killed per day for the rest of the war.
Anyone can easily see through your distortions of the numbers Victor. How does it go from 500 a day to only 11 Victor?
Victor, the reality is 30% of the causalities were Serbs according to the ICTY. Serbs make up 34% of the population. Please explain how this FACT fits into your world view. It can't, because your world view is completely in contradiction to established reality.
STOP POSTING LIES!!!!!!
Canadien, Victor really is a French Canadian. I find it silly to accuse people like that. PB actually accused me of being an Albanian, ha ha ha ha ha...
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« If we don’t expose lies like yours and insist that one side did this or that and ignore the other ...»
I do not expose lies: Omarska is true, Vukovar is true, Mount Vlasic is true, Srebrenica is true... The major crimes and atrocities were perpetrated by the Serbs (soldiers, policemen, paramilitaries, milias) and the others (Croats and Muslim Bosniaks) have also committed their share but not to the same measure.
What you want to do is a balance equation, and this is a lie! Serb crimes = Muslim crimes. This is a lie. You know this. Find me one example where the Muslims have massacred 200, 300, 500, in one day.
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Victor claims to be from Quebec Canada in an earlier post he made. That's a joke. If I were to quiz him with 10 questions about Quebec he would surely fail to answer any of them. As for the other person here who thinks I immigrated to Canada recently, you are wrong, I was born here. My grammar and use of English is proof of that, I may from time to time make a minor error in my text since I type very quickly, but mostly its evident that English is not my second language, unlike many others here.
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To: Walter
Its great to see an apparent educated and sensible voice here. Well said with your remarks.
pre 16 godina
Walter,
I think your writing is very powerful and simply put, excellent. However, I do think that the number of 700,000 slaughtered at Jasenovac alone is unsubstantiated and probably should not be cited as fact. A lot of my wife's family are buried there, but the total has not truly been determined. I do personally believe the total number of Serbs killed in WWII by the Ustashe is probably in reality close to 1,000,000 (According to Konnilyn Feig, a world renown expert on such things) however, I generally use the commonly accepted figure of 300,000 - 400,000.
"during the summer of 1992, from June to September, more than 50 000 Muslims have been killed in 43 municipalities in Bosnia?(Victor, Thursday, 7 June, 2007, 13:54)"
Victor, this is exactly the type of factual make-believe that Walter is talking about. Even if you insist on using Tokaca's numbers and not ICTY (which is where you claim to get your numbers) the total number of Bosniaks killed (Both Military and Civilian) is only 63,994 for the ENTIRE war. You're claiming that the vast majority of these deaths occurred in the summer of 92? What was happening the rest of the war?
The reality is Victor, according to the ICTY itself, Serbs represent 30% of the causalities in Bosnia and 34% of the population. I can not possibly see how it is as one sided as you claim.
"Note that this page doesn't have the note "The factual accuracy of this article or section is disputed"(Rovena, Thursday, 7 June, 2007, 16:51)"
Rovena, this Wiki page doesn't have that note either, but it claims "Kosovo, the Serbian part of former Yugoslavia, where a massive ethnic cleansing campaign took place in the late 1990s, when millions were forced out their homes and over 100,000 were murdered". However that doesn't make it true, claiming 100,000 were murdered is a little crazy, wouldn't you agree? Wiki is a great starting place and if its well written it lists a proper source that you can then go to and cite. However, citing Wiki as a source itself is rather silly in my opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora
However, if you want to debate the merits of Wiki's section on the Albanian language, I'll quote this:
"Indeed, the very word for Greek, gërk, was borrowed from South Slavic; cf. Bulg. grŭk, Serb-Croat gr"k."
If this is true, to me it would most certainly indicate that the Albanians originate from an area that was NOT adjacent to Greece, and the first time they heard of Greeks was from Slavs. Therefore the only logical conclusion is that Albanians moved to their current area AFTER Slavs moved to the region. I'm guessing, if this is true, they are from Europe, just not the area they are in currently. I just don't see how its possible if they are in fact using a Slav word for Greek.
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Yes Rovana I know all about when paper was invented and I also know that history is written by people who bring in their own biases and their own interpretation and their own prejudices. However I also know that when the majority of historians agree on a point it is more likely true than when one person is alone. On the other hand, when one person questions the rest that sometimes is much better than agreement since the question leads to new investigations and new answers. Of course we need to look at when one group or another was referred to in documents for the first time. Documents are primary sources, the best kind of historical evidence, which historians use to interpret their significance in light of other sources. It is not possible to discuss something that we have no reference to because it just becomes a moot point. In my answer to you concerning how the Albanians and Serbs, for that matter, went to Turkey I used his book “Bridge on the River Drina” to explain a point about the Janissaries and you belittle his work that won the Nobel prize in literature by his 1937 stand on Skadar. If you don’t believe the origin of the Janissaries you have some problems and a lots of history to catch up on. The Ottomans rule in the Christian lands was harsh and based on the following policy: blood tax –children to serve as Janissaries or eunuch, tax -- money or goods, convert to Islam and if you refuse they cut your head off or impaled you on a “trklja” and placed you at a crossing or approach to a town so that you will be an example to all who refuse to obey. Majority of Albanians and many Serbs and some Croats converted others, fled like many Albanians and Serbs, after the Battle of Kosovo for example, others were impaled. What most people seem not to know is that Albanians and Hungarians fought with the Serbs against the Ottomans at the Battle of Kosovo. Back to Andric Europe was awash in chauvinism and nationalism at that time so that should not detract from his great literary skill. You have a good day as well.
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OK Victor it does not surprise me that you chose these examples but you could have provided just as many from the other side to give a balance swince you claim neutrality. First Victor “this occurred in a region where memories of extremely bloody civil war during World War II were still very much alive.” I remember visitintg a region in Herzegovina in 1974 [Plana} with my Canadian wife. We stopped at a roadside inn and after introducing my wife as a daughter of a man from Ljubuski who immigrated to Canada in 1927 the lady got uop from the table and walked away. Why? Long memory? Outside her Inn is a karst pit {jama} into which Croats and mostly Muslims threw some 100 men from the local region killing them all. As I said in my previous posts the wars after “1992 was a resumption of the vicious cycle of massacres and vengeance” that devastated Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia and Kosovo in 1941-44, when the Nazi [ Muslim, Croat and Albanian} proceeded to eliminate Serbs.
Croats and Muslims also “herded their adversaries into "horrible" camps at the start of the civil war, on the way to expulsion.” Bosnian Serbs did not have a patron to protect them like the Bosnian Muslims who “enjoyed the services of high-powered U.S. public relations experts in the Washington-based Ruder Finn agency who knew how to "spin" the Bosnian conflict in order to equate the Serbs with the Nazis-the quickest and easiest way to win public opinion over to the Muslim” and Croat side. “The news media and political figures were showered with press releases and other materials exaggerating Serb atrocities, whereas Muslim atrocities (such as the decapitations of Serb prisoners, fully documented) remained confidential. To the public, this was a one-sided conflict between a Serbian "fascist aggressor" and innocent victims, all unarmed civilians.”
At the French General Morillon testified {this is public record] at the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague, stressing “that the Muslim commander in Srebrenica, Naser Oric, "engaged in attacks during Orthodox holidays and destroyed villages, massacring all the inhabitants.” Marillion knew Oric personally and he further testified saying "Naser Oric was a warlord who reigned by terror in his area and over the population itself. I think that he realized that these were the rules of this horrific war, that he could not allow himself to take prisoners. According to my recollection, he didn't even look for an excuse. It was simply a statement: One can't be bothered with prisoners." Morillion further testified that “the Serbs took me to a village to show me the evacuation of the bodies of the inhabitants that had been thrown into a hole, a village close to Bratunac. Any intelligent person who is not in denial will understand that retribution is part of life in the Balkans and almost anywhere else in the world particularly when a man finds his home razed to the grtound and his family slaughtered. Marillion understood that and he testified that he “feared that the Serbs, the local Serbs, the Serbs of Bratunac, these militiamen, they wanted to take their revenge for everything that they attributed to Naser Oric. It wasn't just Naser Oric that they wanted to revenge, take their revenge on, they wanted to revenge their dead on Orthodox Christmas."
It is clear to me if not to you Victor that Srebrenica and its environs and Vukovar were the same process of revenge “against those who killed Serbian civilians” Read the testimony of Serbian civilians from Vukovar and Srebrenica It is clear enough that the soldiers in the hospital and the ones that fled Srebrenica “feared exactly what everyone aware of the situation dreaded: that Serb soldiers would take vengeance on the men they considered guilty of murdering Serb civilians and prisoners.”
Victor why do you omit Gospic where Tesla’s home was burned to the ground and dozens of Serbian men killed before the war started in Croatia. You ignore Croats holding Muslim Prisoners in Oil storage tanks in Mostar where heat reacher over 45 degrees Celsius and Muslim Camps in railway tunnels . You also ignore what Marvine Howe in the New York Times (July 12, 1981), quoting an Albanian official in Kosovo states about ethnic cleansing. She writes that as 1981, “ethnic cleansing in relation to the policies of the Kosovo Albanian administration creating an "ethnically clean" territory (i.e. "cleanly" Albanian) in the province. This was used extensively by the Croats in Krajina and Serbs in their region and to a lesser extent by the Muslims.
Victor lets take a look at the Muslim leadership and their aims. From the U.N. Secretary General's 1999 Report on Srebrenica, it emerges that the idea of a "Srebrenica massacre" was already in the air at a September 1993 meeting in Sarajevo between Bosnian Muslim president Alija Izetbegovic and members of his Muslim party from Srebrenica.” Isebegovich, his own party members testified, wanted some 5000 Muslims killed in Srebrenica to get the Americans on side and to portray the Muslims as victims. His people were horrified at this
“Izetbegovic later denied this, but he is outnumbered by witnesses. It is clear that Izetbegovic's constant strategy was to portray his Muslim side in the bloody civil war as pure helpless victims, in order to bring U.S. military power in on his side.” Again the examples of this include other staged events i.e. the breadline massacre even though they were mostly Serbs, rape camps, concentration camps like the ones you mention Victor where the emaciated TB infected Muslim man was filmed. Srebrenica on the other hand “falsely identifying Milosevic with the Bosnian Serb leadership and by exploiting the notion that Srebrenica killings were part of a vast Serb plan of "genocide" carried out against non-Serbs for purely racist reasons, Madeleine Albright was able to advocate the NATO war against Yugoslavia as necessary to prevent "another Srebrenica" in Kosovo, where the situation was altogether different.”
Evidence indicates that “U.S. used "Srebrenica" for two clear purposes:
1. to draw attention away from the U.S.-backed Croatian offensive which drove the Serb population out of the Krajina which, as much as Srebrenica, was supposed to be protected by the United Nations;
2. to implicate Bosnian Serb leaders in "genocide" in order to disqualify them from negotiating the future of Bosnia-Herzegovina. (The U.S. preferred to replace them at Dayton by Milosevic, whose eagerness to end the war could be exploited to get concessions the Bosnian Serbs might refuse”
“On his death bed, Isetbegovich “readily admitted as much to his ardent admirer Bernard Kouchner, in the presence of U.S. diplomat Richard Holbrooke. Kouchner reminded Izetbegovic of a conversation he had had with French President Mitterrand in which he "spoke of the existence of 'extermination camps' in Bosnia. You repeated that in front of the journalists. That provoked considerable emotion throughout the world. [...] They were horrible places, but people were not systematically exterminated. Did you know that?” this was isetbegovich’s reply “Yes. I thought that my revelations could precipitate bombings. I saw the reaction of the French and the others-I was mistaken. [...] Yes, I tried, but the assertion was false. There were no extermination camps whatever the horror of those places. (2)”
It is interesting to note that both real [perpetrators of the Yugoslav tragedy Tudjman and Isetbegovich conveniently died before they could face the tribunal. What do you think Victor, coincidence or get rid of them because their bags are full of skeletons?
Victor I am not justifying any of this. If we don’t expose lies like yours and insist that one side did this or that and ignore the other it “simply prepare the next wave, which is what has already happened in the Balkans, and more than once. The dead victims cannot profit from such memories.” Nor can the living. Read my post on the G8 article it will give you a better idea where I stand and it is certainly not with you.
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Walter,
First of all I was not correcting your english at all, I hadn't even noticed since you didn't say it(typical balkan susceptibility). The point was that steal was an offensive term!Regarding to the number and dates you gave to me and to my "cheerleader" Victor (obviously I know him as much as I know you, but you want to divide people in two sectors), everything is disputed. I give you a recent example (if you catch the point); the surveys of the World Bank say that in Bosnia only 7 percent of the population is living by agricultural, because these were the data they could have. Facts show that more than 60 percent of bosnians live by agriculture. After some decades,when I will be searching data for the year 2006 this is the number I will have, but it doesn't correspond to the reality. So, I would really be careful to confide on numbers that come from 1400. Especially if we are talking about albanians that have always lived on their own (this is a fact, not a vaunt) for many reasons, principally to my opinion beacause of language. I'm not about to link you here the page of wikipedia that talks about the roots of albanian language, but you can find it by yourself. Note that this page doesn't have the note "The factual accuracy of this article or section is disputed" that is present in the link about demographic history of Kosovo that you sent to me (as I told you, credible sources are really difficuilt to find..)What you really don't know is that there were not the albanians that proved the common roots of albanian language with the illyrian one, but german and austrian scholars. Maybe it would be better for you to keep the food for the thoughts that you were offering around, cause I believe you need it more. For example to understand that being mentioned for the first time (and we must be careful what it means in this aspect for the first time; what we have in possess yet,what has survived the hard times, wich doesn't really mean for the first time absolutely)in the middle age in the books of the Byzantine doesn't confirm that there was no existance before. You know, people used to exist even before the invention of the paper, what do you think? How can you explain such a unique language (if you find the famous tree of the indoeuropean language, you will see albanian as a seperate branch and the oldest one - look: not albanian made!)with this appearance after the 11th century? So, my friend try to meditate instead of hanging on doubtful numbers and evidence. Maybe it will give you more answers. Regarding to Ivo Andric, you know, it is obviuos that you are such bad-informed. This "excellent" man in 1939, during his years at serbian ministry of foreign affairs, wrote a document called "draft on albania" that finishes like this: "Taking possession of Shkodra could, in this case, be of great moral and economic significance. It would enable us to carry out major waterworks activities and to recuperate fertile land needed to feed Montenegro. The presence of northern Albania within the framework of Yugoslavia would facilitate the existence of new communications links between northern and southern Serbia and the Adriatic.
After the partition of Albania, Kosovo would lose its attraction as a centre for the Albanian minority which, under the new situation, could be more easily assimilated. We would eventually gain 200,000 to 300,000 Albanians, but these are mostly Catholics whose relations with the Moslem Albanians have never been good. The deportation of Moslem Albanians to Turkey could then be carried out since, under the new circumstances, there would be no major impediment to such a move" Do you really think any sane person would believe on what he says about the balkans and its history??? So tell me Walter, who's the nationalist among us? One last thing, the will of the people is the biggest force ever known and the end it will win. International law is not the speech of god, but just a misarable attempt of your "dear" big nations to rule the world regarding their own interests.
Good day to you all!
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«...each case you cite as an example of Serbian atrocities were a reaction by them to atrocities by the other side against them and their families.»
Can you explain why Darko Mrdja took off buses 200 Muslims on Mount Slavic, in August 1992, and gunned them down?
Can you explain why 300 patients were taken from the hospital in Vukavar in Nov. 1991, brought to the Ovcara farm, and gunned sown?
You say that Omarska is an hoax. Can you explain why 100s of Muslims have been killed there during 3 months?
Walter, tell me what the Muslims have done to deserve to be killed by the 100s from 1992 to 1995? Did you know that during the summer of 1992, from June to September, more than 50 000 Muslims have been killed in 43 municipalities in Bosnia?
I am waiting for the answers.
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»Victor (Anti-Serb Croat)you especially!!! And for your information I am 100% Canadien.»
No Canadians in Canada would make such a mistake! You have certainly emigrated recently to Canada.
Quebec was founded in 1648 and my ancestor arrived in Quebec in 1680, directly from France.
As for your accusation, I am not anti-Serb, or anti-Croat; I am anti war criminals, no matter if their ethnicity!
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Rovena; Victor: and Albanian forever.
Rovana thank you for pointing out my spelling glitch of the word “steal” in one place even though it was spelled correctly in several previous sentences. I could point out that you confuse “leave” and “live”, “their” and “there” and so on but that is OK since English is a tough language and that is not the issue here. The issue is what you say not how you say it. Mr. Albanian forever here is some food for your thought concerning the Balkans. Eighth Century Slav tribes settle into the territories of present-day Slovenia, Bosnia, Croatia, Montenegro and Serbia, and assimilate the Illyrian populations of these regions. There is no anthropological or linguistic evidence that shows Albanians are Illyrians even though some historians particularly in Albania would like this to be so. In 1081 Albania and Albanians or Shqiperisë are mentioned for the first time in a historical record, by a Byzantine emperor. Ottoman Turks; conquered Skadar and many Albanians fled to southern Italy, Greece, Egypt, and elsewhere while those that remained were forced to convert to Islam. Albanians who converted to Islam, like Serbs who converted, became bureaucrats in the Ottoman Empire. In fact Serbian language became the diplomatic language of the Ottoman Empire. Young boys from the Balkans of all nationalities were abducted to Constantinople and became Janissaries (Read Andrich’s book Bridge on the River Drina” and the following explains some of your question?
!4th Century: Out of the 2,166 farming homesteads and 2,666 houses in cattle-grazing land, 44 were registrated as Albanian (1,8%). Others were registered as Slavic mostly Serbian.
15th Century: The 1445 Turkish cadestral tax census on the territory of Kosovo 12,844 Serbian housing while 46 were Albanian households
If you go to this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo#14th_century you will see how this demographic change eventually favoured the Albanian population.
Rovena what you seem not to understand is violations of international law, injustice, and the harm done by nationalists seeking a “polace in the sun.”. You choose to suport the dominant ideology because it suits your nationalistic bias. This is also true for your cheerleader Victor who omits the resons for the examples that he provides. I am not saying that the reasons justify the outcome but only a rabbid nationalist would omit telling this forum thhat the prior killing of Serbian women and children in Vukovar Pakrac, Gospic, Srebrenica and so on did not cause the retaliation by the paramilitary forces who were at one time citizens of those towns. Victor is a courtroom transelator in Vancouver, I think, and he knows that there are two sides to every story. He chooses to tell one side a method of a true propagandist who only sees intelligent Serbs when they agree with him even to a point where he agrees with Svetlana who has not read beyond “The Three Little Pigs”. Facts Victor can be proven with evidence, and annalysis and your facts are self serving. You forget Victor that natural law presupposes that all humans are created equal and independent, which reveals “no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions.” There are laws to change society. Resorting to violence is not acceptable behavior for mankind unless an individual’s freedom is in danger of being relinquished. The last point here Victor explains that each case you cite as an example of Serbian atrocities were a reaction by them to atrocities by the other side against them and their families. Yugoslavia had a legal system and you know something about law Victor that was open to these people to use and fight the legal injustice. Instead Slovenians, Croats, Muslims and Albanians in Kosovo decided to break that law, however unjust, by killing the young Macedonian soldier in Split, massacring Serbians in Gospic, throwing grenades into Serbian cafes in Kosovo, sexually assaulting and killing women and children around Srebrenica and in Vukovar. Did you really think Victor that the Serbians would march into another Jasenovac where 700 000 met a brutal death just a half century before. You mention Omarska but you neglect to tell the participants that this film was fabricated and used as propaganda to attack the Serbs in Bosnia. It is you Victor that is blinded by the chess board that is unable to see truth from fiction. If you examine the events in former Yugoslavia you must know that every act against the Serbs was preceded by a propaganda campaign, an event was manufactured to justify what followed. Omarsks, breadline massacre, rape camps, Racak all events staged for one purpose NATO justification for their agenda which was to break up Yugoslavia. Victor you use this NATO propaganda and don’t provided any evidence of scholastic nature in your ramblings but accuse me of not reading. It will take you a lifetime to read and understand what I have read. Read General Nambiar’s reports, General Rose’s reports, General McKenzie’s reports, or Rollie Keith’s reports, all soldiers on the front line in Bosnia. No Victor, you rather read Christiana Amanpour the state department propagandist and use her reports as evidence. Victor writes “I know, and I can make the difference between the general rule and the exception. Can you” Yes Victor your general rule is Serbs are guilty of killing Christ, starting WWI, WWII, dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. while Slovenians, Croats Muslims and Albanians who started this mess in the Balkans are an exception. When you have some evidence come back on the forum.
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Canadian, the fact that you are husband of Serbian woman is enough. Even more, if you have children then they are half-half...
Clarification about something you are merging - to have majority population of muslim religion doesn't mean to be islamic country. Even in oposit case, why all these fear from islamic world?! By the way Albanian nation belongs to Muslim, Catholic and Orthodox religions and since the centuries there were no religious conflicts among them... Don't worry, there have proved their inter-religious tolerance and it is their treasure...
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«...many reports about their contact with Serbian forces were fabricated.»
Walter, I can assure you that at my age I can see the difference between an innuendo and an euphemism! Can you see the difference between facts and propaganda?
What happened in Omarska, in Brcko, in Keraterm, and in so many 'detention' camps, are these facts or propaganda?
What happened in Vukovar, the assassination of 300 patients from the local hospital, is this a fact or propaganda?
The killing of 200 Muslims on Mount Vlasic by Darko Mrdja, is it propaganda?
The burning of more than 500 women and children in Visegrad by Lukic and his paramilitaries, is this a fact or propaganda?
And the systematic rape campaign across Bosnia, is this a fact or propaganda.
And I could continue this enumeration with countless facts.
You should not listen, Walter, to a few persons whom reports were falsified and made a rule of it. There are always exceptions, I know, and I can make the difference between the general rule and the exception. Can you?
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To Walter
"Albania for example wants to steal parts of Serbia, Macedonia and Greece."
It is not Albania that wants to steal parts of other states. Other states have stolen from Albania during history. Albania is not claiming what belongs to it which is very sad. Read more than your schoolbooks and you will find how Albania was divided during years. This is only time that some of great powers are with albanians and you do make problems. Then why is Russia supporting serbs??!! Serbia has no ground in claiming Kosova. Here you have some ground to explore further. If there are churches, when were they build and by whom? What was there before these churches? Why they build churches in Kosova? Which parts of Balcan were populated by Albanians? When did that changed? How many Albanians are now in Turkey and how they were moved there?
pre 16 godina
Svetlana and Victor who praises you do not understand the difference between an innuendo and a euphemism. In fact nether understands the subtle media methods that fabricate numbers, omit information, and outright lie about events in former Yugoslavia. I have had officers of the Canadian armed forces in my home who were my students and they said that many reports about their contact with Serbian forces were fabricated. Word usage is a powerful weapon which was used by the Croats, Muslims and Albanians to demonize the Serbs. These reporters were paid by the state department to lie. Christiana Amanpour was the biggest liar of the lot. Amanpour is the wife of Jamie Ruben Assistant Secretary of State in the Clinton administration who fed the American public one lie after another. For example the New York Times reporter wrote that “Milosevic was “resolute” and “forceful,” and that Richard May, the former Presiding Judge at the trial, was only “sober, polite and tough,” whereas Milosevic was “contemptuous” and “carping.” Anyone who saw the trial and I saw every bit of it Milosevic was never rude, never arrogant, never belligerent, but always polite and patient while judge May was arrogant, rude, and full of himself a typical stuffed shirt without a personality. Svetlana you speak of a mass grave without any idea if there is a mass grave. Any time an issue arise that US wants to push through like the Kosovo question they find mass graves, they tell us million ethnically cleansed, they tell us four hundred thousand raped, they tell us three hundred thousand dead and mostly Muslims. These are simple lies repeated often that people like you Svetlana and Victor swallow hook line and sinker. You Svetlana and Victor from Quebec (that is a joke) need to ask a simple question about propaganda and that question is WHO BENEFITS. Once you answer that question you will be able to tell a lie from the truth. Please don’t get me wrong one killed or raped person is one too many no matter what ethnic group they come from. During WWI Western media wrote that Germans were throwing babies into the air and then bayoneting them and making sausages from corpses. History books today, however, blame all sides equally for WWI. Germany is blamed for starting WWII; however JP Taylor a renowned British historian blames the English with equal amount of ink. Mark Twain, Nikola Tesla’s good friend, said “Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception” Who was attacked here? Yugoslavia and later Serbia. Who benefited? Multinational Corporation and the Western Military industrial Complex including NATO. There are two levels of lies in the West “The first layer says, that you don’t need to report the truth as long as you write something that is plausible and the second strategy is to tell the truth but withhold the other side’s point of view.. Victor and Svetlana it takes two to tango.
pre 16 godina
The UN, US, and the EU must know that the only solution for Kosovo and Metohija, province of Serbia is internationally-supervised autonomy and continued dialogue between Belgrade and Pristina.
I don't know what makes a mature bunch of elected, think illogically and with parroted phrases.
International Law tells us, (you and me) respect sovereign territory.
Respect Serbia's sovereign territory. Russia does, and as a result is gaining much respect around the world.
The world media can put whatever spin they wish, it won't sell.
Prime Minister Kostunica is totally supported for his stance in protecting Serbian territory.
pre 16 godina
Kosovo is a done deal.
pre 16 godina
First of all, Svetlana, please give everyone your real name, the way you cut down Serbs, refer to the 'mighty USA', and praise albanians, you are clearly not a Serb.
On a lighter note, I want to congratulate the Serb tennis players at the French Open! Ana Ivanovic and Jelena Jankovic are in the semi-finals, Nenad Zimonjic is in the semi-finals in both men's doubles and mixed doubles, and Novak Djokovic is playing tomorrow and hopefully he will make it to the semi-finals too. Quite an amazing achievement for such a small country!! You have made all of us very proud. Good luck to all! Ziveli!
pre 16 godina
«We Serbians are not all the same but those bad individuals that have done those horrible things are the scum of the Serbian people and had made us look very bad in the eyes of the world.»
All nations have the destructive potential, even Albanians. However, people have to judge and be judged according to the evidence. Serbs (police, military, and paramilitary forces) have commited a magnitude of crimes against humanity. The world will not forget that they are accountable for over 15 thousand masacred and killed. THOSE ARE VICTIMS OF SERB FORCES. It is for the Serbs as a nation to denounce them. It is for serbs as a nation to sort their own garbage and disgrace. The sooner they will do this the sooner they will bring their nation any kind of dignity. Otehrwise they will live under the dark shadow of their crimes as a nation state.
When I read the forum, I get discouraged because I see that majority of serbs (ADD or not) are still resisting their crimes and opose the DIVORCE with the nation that they harmed to a great level.
What is ironic is that, serbia would loose a lot more than just Kosova if they don't change their anti Albanian politics. The irony gets even bigger when facing the facts that majority of serbs are still nationalists and adhere to their unrealistic dreams.
I hope that there will be a serb born who will actually lead the troubled nation from the darkness to the light and have it one more time join the nation states who consider humanity and human life more than their ill myths.
pre 16 godina
To all here is the news link I spoke of, it is sure to change minds and hearts of many > http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=28597
pre 16 godina
To all who support Albanian independence... You should read this article (written by an American) and visit the website (in article) set up by a former ambassador to the Hague. And not in "she said - he said" view the photo gallery and then come back here and dare to comment. All should see this website. Victor (Anti-Serb Croat)you especially!!! And for your information I am 100% Canadien, the only Serbian connection I have is my wife who is Serbian.
pre 16 godina
Walter, what you say about the big nations is right and I don't think anyone in this forum is about to think that there is space for justice in there agendas. Obviously, this fits to all big nations not only to one. What you don't seem to know and I hope because of the lack of information is that first of all Albania is not at all willing to steel (just to use your word) land from their neighbours. Nowhere you can find such a declaration from the state of Albania. Second, you miss the point. Kosova wants independence because it's the will of the people that lives there. Nothing to say against people's will?? What you seem not to know either is that albanians that live in Kosovo, Macedonia, south of Serbia, Montenegro and north of Greece have always lived there. And it has been because of some will of the big nations that albanians have been divided in so many countries. There are 3.2 million albanians in Albania. Albanians that live in their territories outside the state of Albania reach more than 3 millions. No other population in the Balkans has lost as much as the albanians when the big nations decided the borders. In addition, albanians that remained outside the state of Albania where repeatedly treated from the governments of the countries where they found themselves(against their will) as second class citiziens. This was mostly enforced in Kosovo, because more numerous.So, be careful and understand; albanians want only their rights. In Macedonia for example, before the agreement of Oher, even though albanians were about 30 per cents of the population (macedonians say 20 and albanians say 40, let's agree on the avarage)their language was not official and no school in albanian was legal. Now, they have managed it someway and albanian is the second official language in the country and they have their own representation in the public administration. Consequently, noone in Macedonia is willing to join Albania and the two countries are in good relations. Kosovo is a different question and there is no turning back on its way to independence. Once again there is no practical possibility tha Kosovo joins Albania and not because of the international will, but because neither the two countries want it. I strongly believe that in the Balkan is needed cooperation and one of my dreams is to leave in peace and harmony with each other because all these wars have only destroyed us. The people of the Balkans have a lot in common, more than you can imagine, but cooperation and peace comes only when all the populations consider themselves equal to each other. Then comes the real peace. We will know each other and we will be surprised on how the stereotypes have left us such distant. Sadly, for the moment this is possible to understand only when you're away from the Balkans and you have the chance to know the other people from the Balkans (this is what has happened to me).
Svetlana, I'm glad you intervened, not because I thought that no serb was able to accept what has happened. I knew there were, but this forum is such full of division and it seemed that there was no space for dialogue. Let us try to build another place based on good neighborhood. It will be better for us all. I absolutely think we are able to do it.
pre 16 godina
Anton - what do you believe will happen if the UN does not approve independence and Kosovo is not backed by the US to announce unilateral independence?
I genuinely want to know, because no-one on this site even allows for that possibility.
"Nobody is going to take up arms in that situation. I see that they are holding Kurti and probably others who they suspect may stir up violence if there is no independence."
What about you Kate, what do you think it will happen in this case? Will the serbs round up their tanks and bomb the hell of Kosovo again?
pre 16 godina
Generalizing is always and however wrong,but indeed what serbs did in the past decade din't helped me in the formation of my opinion about them,and it is a quite bad one.And from what i see here in this forum,serbs that really feel the sense of guilt for what their own people did,exists!
I appreciate this and i think that it is a good starting point for the future,and i hope that the word "peace" will be the lightmotive in the relations between the two states,Kosova and Serbia.
pre 16 godina
Here's what a Western expert says about the Russian stance
""Russia has no leverage over the Balkan states and knows it. There's no way that Russia could stop the Ahtisaari plan if the West stands united in favor of it. Its veto power in the Security Council is symbolic. After all the US invaded Iraq without a UN mandate," said Alexander Rahr, program director for Russia at the German Council on Foreign Relations."
-----------------------------
pre 16 godina
«You are as much a Serb as is Clinton. I very much so doubt that you are though.»
So, according to you, a Serb is the one who lives in constant denial of what happened; of what has been done in Serbia's name by an handful of criminals who have tarnished for many generations the image of all Serbs across the world!
pre 16 godina
Svetlana, you live in a dream world where the US is still "mighty" and where Serbs should "apologize" for defending their own country against a US/German backed Albanian (KLA was launching attacks from Albania) insurgents. I was born here US), and I will not accept the EVIL that this country imposes on weaker nations including Iraq & Afghanistan. You have what I refer to as a 1950's mentality, when the US was truly "mighty" in every way. This is 2007 and the US is only #1 when it comes to debt 600,000 per household on average and #1 in defence spending. America is living on borrowed time and China's, Japan's, etc money. Thank you for your suggestion, however my comments about the US are not done in hate but a sincere desire to speak the truth so that the wrongs here can be made right, as I'm sure your comments are not intended to be anti-Serb or anti-yourself.
pre 16 godina
to "nothing less than freedom":
there died poeple on all sides. that does not justify k-albanian dreams of an annexation of serbian territory. so, please stop whining, it really doesn´t help the matter.
and to Nick:
what for heavens sake do the Russians have to say at all, to convince you about their unwillingness to approve a resolution that is dead on arrival?
I mean, come on, be realistic! it´s a done deal, after all what we could read in the last weeks.
and now it seems as if the US just want to have a veto in order to blame Russia for everything, not only their resistance against the missile-shield...
pre 16 godina
Svetlana!
Let's wait and see if there really is a mass grave first. They will start digging tomorrow as I understood to see if there actually are people burried there. Before that there is only speculation of a mass grave.
But where are the remains of more than 2 000 serb civilians missing from the Kosovo conflict I wonder!?!
Where are the apologies from the albanians?
Are serb lives less important than albanian lives?
Who started the killing? KLA or serb police?
pre 16 godina
Mr Kostunica,
Pleas,do you know who did that mass grave in Serbia teritory with albanians body. the ANSWER is: THE SERBIAN STATE DID IT. Does it make sens for albanian in Kosovo to be anymore Serbian citizen? The answer is a absolutly big NOOOO.
pre 16 godina
I think it's about time we all face up the the fact that independence is inevitable, and that Serbs and Albanians alike should be the first to congratulate the newest state pending approval by it's legislature and an official proclamation of independence. Let us together be the first to bypass the United Nations and unilaterally salute this newest State, spawned from a state that is, " too big, too corrupt, and no longer services the needs of it's citizens." Some say Kosovo....NOT....I salute the Breakaway Republic of.......VERMONT! In addition, I second a UN resolution for immediate recognition of the Independent Republic of Vermont with full diplomatic status, and the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of the nationalist occupying forces of the United States and it's paramilitary loyalists who have crossed the borders terrorizing a helpless and frightened people, who's only desire is to live in peace, unshackled from this tyrannical neighbor and oppressor. Supplies are urgently needed along with volunteers....
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/04/national/main2881111.shtml
pre 16 godina
Svetlana... maybe you should watch something else other then CNN, CBC, BBC... the worlds biggest propaganda stations. And focus on say GREECE, CHINA, SERBIA, RUSSIA and anyone else who is currently releasing UNBIASED news on this topic. Serbs are the victims here. But I would so love to see Russian nukes stationed in Serbia and then see who will support the Albanian terrorists. You are as much a Serb as is Clinton. I very much so doubt that you are though.
pre 16 godina
Serbia must show its disapproval of American and British actions in Kosovo.
In September 2006 the Serbian government signed a status-of-forces agreement with America which allows American troops and warplanes to cross Serbia at will.
This agreement should be terminated immediately. America was Serbia’s enemy in 1999 and nothing has changed since.
Serbia should throw out the British Ambassador and down grade the embassy to a mere consulate.
pre 16 godina
Svetlana, you surprised me.
I lost my brother and still cannot find at least his bones.
You are the only serb I could read to apologise.
Your apology is really accepted.
Anytime I see serbs I relate them to "murders".
Svetlana thanks for helping me to change my view.
One more thing serbs did kill Albanian christians too, my brother is one of them.
pre 16 godina
«We Serbians are not all the same but those bad individuals that have done those horrible things are the scum of the Serbian people and had made us look very bad in the eyes of the world.»
Svetlana, it's the first time I read something as powerful, coming from a Serb. Most of the Serbs on this forum point at the Croats, who are responsible, the Muslim Bosnians who are responsible, the Albanians who are responsible; the USA, NATO, the EU, and minimize the atrocities and the numbers...
I congratulate you for your courage, because many Serbs from this forum, living confortably in the USA or UK, will call you anti-Serb and will insult you because you do not think like them, and you don't write what they expect of you.
Thank God that there are intelligent Serbs like you who make a difference.
pre 16 godina
People and nations find all sorts of ways to steal property This is theft like everything else. Great Britain was only great because they stole from the rest of the world at every turn. America is doing the same thing in Iraq now, and not so long ago in Central and South America. It does not take long for smaller nations to learn from the big ones that they can steal as well. Albania for example wants to steal parts of Serbia, Macedonia and Greece. It is simply a disease that small nations catch from the big ones. Small nations immunize their theft by using the big brother as a patron, Albania using America for example. The big nations spread this disease to small ones and small nations realize that this theft cam be legalized because their patron makes the rules. You see the nation that has the nukes makes the rules and have control of the earth. Is it wonder that Iran wants the nukes as well? The law is what the big nations make it since they are law unto themselves. They do not make the laws to protect small nations; their international courts are not instruments of justice but courts to legitimize theft. When Serbs and others are sent to The Hague it will make little difference whether they are guilty or innocent; but it’s better if you have a patron with nukes when this happens. To have a patron with nukes you have to have something that the patron wants, strategic location, resources or a strong wealthy lobby in your patron’s homeland who geese’s the political wheels of those “thieves” who run the patron’s government. . You cannot have a patron unless you have some influence. First and last it’s a question of influence. Those countries who own the earth, who have weapons make the laws to protect what they have and to get more of what they don’t have or what they will need. These men and women do this in the name of the nation but really they are doing it in the name of corporate interests and propertied classes. . They put up all sorts of fence, put up all sorts of firewalls, write all sorts of lies or they write laws to get around Tribunals themselves that they create for others or they fix the law so the small nation is isolated and induced to comply with the theft of their national territory by promises of membership in this or that organization that the thieves control. In the end these promises are violated with impunity. Look at all the treaties that the Yugoslav government signed over the years, everyone has been violated. The small nation that feed like piglets on the “teats” of their patrons, mark my words, will be the next bacon of the patron. The world my Balkan friends is really organized for the protection of the nations who rule the world. The United Nations was never organized as a force to do justice it was organized to exploit small nations in the name of the elite classes that dominate the social structure within. Be you Serb or Albanian there is no system called justice and the only way you will get justice is to work together and get rid of big nations who exploit you and use you for their own national interest.
pre 16 godina
Zoran it is strange to me that you “live in USA” and talk bad about the US it is shame that you “spill the beans” for someone else. A recommendation to you goes to Russia because you belong there not in mighty USA
How you people ask Albanians to stay in Serbia (a new grave site opens today) What is that some 500 chicken were butchered and thrown away in a mass grave or were they human beings with history emotions family loves one like me and you and everyone else. This is the savage side of the human race. It is ease to say I’m right but is inhumane when the facts point to another direction and you still keep a straight face saying I’m right because I say so
After so much consideration, I concluded that I need to personally apologize to the families of those Albanians still missing or are in this recent grave.
We Serbians are not all the same but those bad individuals that have done those horrible things are the scum of the Serbian people and had made us look very bad in the eyes of the world.
On the other hand, for most of my co-patriots Albanians are not a factor in their discussions I think some people here ADD attention deficit disorder. Princip for example mention people of Serbia but Albanians are not mention in his discussion what a shame.
If you mister Princip get paid for this go where the professionals are and leave us amateurs alone
pre 16 godina
Princip,
And you believe that the Russian threat of veto is credible?
Even though the Russians have NOT YET explicitly threatened to veto.
pre 16 godina
Nick,
you suggested to Kate;
"You somehow seem to believe that the US is afraid to unilaterally recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Why is that?"
- the answer is simple it is not a case of afraid but is question of whether the US is dumb enough to ignore the UN and the resolution that they themselves formulated and signed ??? Do you not understand that a bluff needs to be credible and this is not credible that said it can be stupid but it still does not make it credible!!!
If the answer turns out to be Yes the US are dumb enough then expect the US to lose the last ounce of international credibility just when they need all the help they can get given the quagmire of Iraq, Afghanistan, and on issues with Missile defence in Europe, Iran, N,Korea, Darfur etc etc.... Equally but more importantly with the 'sui generis' that they clung onto thrown out by such inept actions they open the 'pandora box' for Russia to do the same and treat it's interest in the near abroad that it would want recognised too - US losing face in Georgia and other places that are more important then Serbia's province of Kosovo & Metohija! What is more important to the US seeing as Russia is in a win-win with the best scenario being from their perpective a hasty move by the US ensuring the Veto & forcing the dumb move by the US!!!
If the answer is No they are not dumb enough (which they have told Ceku - only he is keeping very quiet since end of May) then I look forward to your response in the next few days when this folly is finally laid to rest.
It is important that all the People of Serbia can progress and economic development that is much required in the province is allowed to florish. However, with the scenario that you are aspiring for in the US being dumb enough to Illegally recognise an Illegal entity don't expect much for the future beyond what has proceeded for Northern Cyprus!!!
I have always said that win-win is in the best interest of ALL the People of Serbia - anything less is lose-lose. Surely it is better for the future of the next generation that all the people of Serbia progress forward with a new found trust and reconciliation which can drive the economy of the Serbian province and Serbia as a whole rather then give that all up for empty promises that are not someones to give?
The choice is for the making at least one thing is certain this Friday will be D-Day i.e. Decision Day.
No Vote = No Independence
Vote+Veto = No Independence
I am positive that The US is not so Dumb and look forward to Saturday when there will be No Independence, No ILLEGAL Unilateral declaration, No Illegal recognition and No Violence and everyone will realise that alternatives must be found that satisfy all the peoples for a better future for ALL!
pre 16 godina
Kate,
You somehow seem to believe that the US is afraid to unilaterally recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Why is that?
It seems to me that you and other Serb supports here believe that the US is not as committed to the Albanians as the Russians are committed to the Serbs. While in fact it is the Americans that have been crystal clear about Kosovo, they said and they are still saying that “they support the Ahtisari plan (independence)” While it was and it is the Russians who are playing a game by not declaring their intentions.
While everybody knows the US backs independence, most people are unsure as to whether the Russians are willing to sacrifice their prestige and become the only country in the world against independence, and the Russians have only fueled these suspicions by not clearly threatening to veto.
The only reason people are taking the Russians seriously is not because they are a rising superpower, but because the US and the West in general know how little respect the Russians have for human life (read Russian and Soviet history and the millions of their own people that they killed for no reason whatsoever). Combine that lack of respect for human life with the thousands of nuclear bombs the Russians posses and you will understand why the West is taking Russia seriously.
Russia will never become a superpower by blackmailing the world with annihilation.
China on the other hand is on its way to becoming a superpower. They have realized that in the 21st century you can not become a superpower through blackmail and threat of nuclear annihilation but through ECONOMIC MIGHT.
pre 16 godina
Here in the US our media is ratcheting up tensions with Russia big time! This is definitely building up to something. We (US) cannot live without a boogeyman or two or twenty, so Russia/Serbia fit quite nicely. It is sad to see a once benevolent, great freedom loving country fall so far from grace. The US will make a fool out of itself over the Kosovo issue and soon it will have to withdraw from Iraq & Afghanistan with our tail between their legs. The Soviet Union fell shortly after they left Afghanistan and sadly Americans can't learn from their mistakes or others. So be it, let them vote, or should I say let them (Russia/China) VETO!
pre 16 godina
I would like to hear your smug comments this time next week when Kosovo is still a Serbian Provence. I bet you will remain silent or come back here and say by July Kosovo is independent.»
Canadian, what is Canada's position on this dossier?
Most Canadians fully support the independance of Kosovo, because these people have suffered enough under the serbian regime of Milosevic.
If you are a Canadian, and I doubt you are, you will think differently!
pre 16 godina
The only thing damaging in the treatment of this independance dossier, is the attitude of Kostunica waiting on Putin to decide for Serbia what is good for the Albanians.
This is a tragic-comody! Putin trying to show the world that Russia is still a major power that can interact with the USA.
What a farce, indeed!
pre 16 godina
To: Anton
I would like to hear your smug comments this time next week when Kosovo is still a Serbian Provence. I bet you will remain silent or come back here and say by July Kosovo is independent.
pre 16 godina
Yes Dragane I also want to see the look on condie's face when she hears the veto.
pre 16 godina
I think that Koshtunica has already made the necessary arrangements with RTS for a public apology to his nation next week when Kosovars will be celebrating in kosova for their recognized country. I think it would have been much easies if Koshtunica would have told his conutrymen about the independence of Kosova in 1999 and not next week. What a pitty.
pre 16 godina
On one side we have US and all Western powers and on the other Russia. Russia argument for opposing Ahtisaari is that "it is bad for Europe"!!! You make your calculations! But this is not the point at all. Why do you want Kosovo anyway? No SErb (or albanian for that matter) wants to live in kosovo. Albanians live because they have to, not because some holy-land BS. I've been to kosovo and no sane person would live there unless it's where he or she is born. Even if you "win" kosovo, no serb will every live there. I bet that more SErbs will stay in Kosovo if it becomes independet than if it stays in Serbia. With independence, some foreigners will be there and Serbia will help. If it stays in Serbia, there will be always be tensions and all normal people will flee... and serbs will have more opportunities to do so. Enough with BS Kosovo is ours. Kosovo belongs to people who are condemned to live there.
pre 16 godina
Reality is sinking, about time Koshtunica is showing the big sign of panic. he is getting ready to tell the serbiannation that sorry but we did everything possible, to no avail.
Ambasdador Khlazaid of US has told his russian counterpart that US along with its Western allies is firm on Kosova issue and they have plan B in place if russia uses veto. Plan B is to give e green light to Kosova parliament to declare their Independence and they will gat immediately recognozed by US and western countries.
pre 16 godina
Anton - what do you believe will happen if the UN does not approve independence and Kosovo is not backed by the US to announce unilateral independence?
I genuinely want to know, because no-one on this site even allows for that possibility.
Nobody is going to take up arms in that situation. I see that they are holding Kurti and probably others who they suspect may stir up violence if there is no independence.
pre 16 godina
Well, Kosovo is already "de facto" independent and it doesn't matter if any UN resolution should or not be voted.
Anti Kosovo independence people could only hope in a future UN resolution which could impose by force a Belgrade ruling in Kosovo, given the fact that in the region there is no presence of Serbian instituitons.
Obviously, nowadays there are no rooms for such a scenario.
pre 16 godina
Another mass grave discoverewd near Raska, containing over 500 bodies of K-Alb. and Mr. Kostunica talks about keeping Kosovo/a.
pre 16 godina
It looks like the arrogant Americans are daring the Russians to use their veto. I want to see the look on Condie's face when the Russians (and possibly the Chinese) say Nyet!
pre 16 godina
If the report is true, then it is obvious the US has decided to play a game of chicken with the Russians. A game in which neither side can give way without a severe loss of prestige. So the stage is finally set for the following sequence:
1. US submits resolution to spite Moscow
2. Russia and China veto it
3. Angry K-Albanians declare independence unilaterally
4. Belgrade declares 1244 still valid
4. K-Serbs declare the north as Serbian territory as per 1244 --> de fact partition
5. Population transfers as K-Serbs flee north of Ibar and Presovo Albanians flee south.
6. Enough time passes (can be years or decades) for tempers to cool down and the world to forget Kosovo
7. De facto partition become de jour.
8. Maybe the next generation will decide to kiss and make up since they do not have blood on their hands???
pre 16 godina
The ball will be shot back for game set and match to the Russians as they have said all along haste will be "futile & counterproductive"
No Vote = No Independence
Vote + Veto = No Independence
Either way it is inevitable that there is going to be an end to such folly!!!
Following on with events next week there will be NO ILLEGAL unilateral declarations, No Illegal recognistion and No Violence as Ceku was informed last month when he went to the US!!!
I look forward to any comments to the contrary as we will only have a week to reflect on either viewpoint - I am quite confident about the events about to unfold seeing as they are clear for all to see - it would interesting to see the opposite viewpoints!!
pre 16 godina
We hear this every week. If, and only if, Russia decides to abstain will Kosovo become independent. Who knows what reasoning Russia will apply to it's Kosovo decision. No doubt Behar who has "high level contacts" will tell everyone what is really happening - hehehehe.
pre 16 godina
We hear this every week. If, and only if, Russia decides to abstain will Kosovo become independent. Who knows what reasoning Russia will apply to it's Kosovo decision. No doubt Behar who has "high level contacts" will tell everyone what is really happening - hehehehe.
pre 16 godina
The ball will be shot back for game set and match to the Russians as they have said all along haste will be "futile & counterproductive"
No Vote = No Independence
Vote + Veto = No Independence
Either way it is inevitable that there is going to be an end to such folly!!!
Following on with events next week there will be NO ILLEGAL unilateral declarations, No Illegal recognistion and No Violence as Ceku was informed last month when he went to the US!!!
I look forward to any comments to the contrary as we will only have a week to reflect on either viewpoint - I am quite confident about the events about to unfold seeing as they are clear for all to see - it would interesting to see the opposite viewpoints!!
pre 16 godina
I think that Koshtunica has already made the necessary arrangements with RTS for a public apology to his nation next week when Kosovars will be celebrating in kosova for their recognized country. I think it would have been much easies if Koshtunica would have told his conutrymen about the independence of Kosova in 1999 and not next week. What a pitty.
pre 16 godina
Reality is sinking, about time Koshtunica is showing the big sign of panic. he is getting ready to tell the serbiannation that sorry but we did everything possible, to no avail.
Ambasdador Khlazaid of US has told his russian counterpart that US along with its Western allies is firm on Kosova issue and they have plan B in place if russia uses veto. Plan B is to give e green light to Kosova parliament to declare their Independence and they will gat immediately recognozed by US and western countries.
pre 16 godina
Another mass grave discoverewd near Raska, containing over 500 bodies of K-Alb. and Mr. Kostunica talks about keeping Kosovo/a.
pre 16 godina
On one side we have US and all Western powers and on the other Russia. Russia argument for opposing Ahtisaari is that "it is bad for Europe"!!! You make your calculations! But this is not the point at all. Why do you want Kosovo anyway? No SErb (or albanian for that matter) wants to live in kosovo. Albanians live because they have to, not because some holy-land BS. I've been to kosovo and no sane person would live there unless it's where he or she is born. Even if you "win" kosovo, no serb will every live there. I bet that more SErbs will stay in Kosovo if it becomes independet than if it stays in Serbia. With independence, some foreigners will be there and Serbia will help. If it stays in Serbia, there will be always be tensions and all normal people will flee... and serbs will have more opportunities to do so. Enough with BS Kosovo is ours. Kosovo belongs to people who are condemned to live there.
pre 16 godina
Anton - what do you believe will happen if the UN does not approve independence and Kosovo is not backed by the US to announce unilateral independence?
I genuinely want to know, because no-one on this site even allows for that possibility.
Nobody is going to take up arms in that situation. I see that they are holding Kurti and probably others who they suspect may stir up violence if there is no independence.
pre 16 godina
If the report is true, then it is obvious the US has decided to play a game of chicken with the Russians. A game in which neither side can give way without a severe loss of prestige. So the stage is finally set for the following sequence:
1. US submits resolution to spite Moscow
2. Russia and China veto it
3. Angry K-Albanians declare independence unilaterally
4. Belgrade declares 1244 still valid
4. K-Serbs declare the north as Serbian territory as per 1244 --> de fact partition
5. Population transfers as K-Serbs flee north of Ibar and Presovo Albanians flee south.
6. Enough time passes (can be years or decades) for tempers to cool down and the world to forget Kosovo
7. De facto partition become de jour.
8. Maybe the next generation will decide to kiss and make up since they do not have blood on their hands???
pre 16 godina
It looks like the arrogant Americans are daring the Russians to use their veto. I want to see the look on Condie's face when the Russians (and possibly the Chinese) say Nyet!
pre 16 godina
Well, Kosovo is already "de facto" independent and it doesn't matter if any UN resolution should or not be voted.
Anti Kosovo independence people could only hope in a future UN resolution which could impose by force a Belgrade ruling in Kosovo, given the fact that in the region there is no presence of Serbian instituitons.
Obviously, nowadays there are no rooms for such a scenario.
pre 16 godina
To: Anton
I would like to hear your smug comments this time next week when Kosovo is still a Serbian Provence. I bet you will remain silent or come back here and say by July Kosovo is independent.
pre 16 godina
The only thing damaging in the treatment of this independance dossier, is the attitude of Kostunica waiting on Putin to decide for Serbia what is good for the Albanians.
This is a tragic-comody! Putin trying to show the world that Russia is still a major power that can interact with the USA.
What a farce, indeed!
pre 16 godina
I would like to hear your smug comments this time next week when Kosovo is still a Serbian Provence. I bet you will remain silent or come back here and say by July Kosovo is independent.»
Canadian, what is Canada's position on this dossier?
Most Canadians fully support the independance of Kosovo, because these people have suffered enough under the serbian regime of Milosevic.
If you are a Canadian, and I doubt you are, you will think differently!
pre 16 godina
Yes Dragane I also want to see the look on condie's face when she hears the veto.
pre 16 godina
Kate,
You somehow seem to believe that the US is afraid to unilaterally recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Why is that?
It seems to me that you and other Serb supports here believe that the US is not as committed to the Albanians as the Russians are committed to the Serbs. While in fact it is the Americans that have been crystal clear about Kosovo, they said and they are still saying that “they support the Ahtisari plan (independence)” While it was and it is the Russians who are playing a game by not declaring their intentions.
While everybody knows the US backs independence, most people are unsure as to whether the Russians are willing to sacrifice their prestige and become the only country in the world against independence, and the Russians have only fueled these suspicions by not clearly threatening to veto.
The only reason people are taking the Russians seriously is not because they are a rising superpower, but because the US and the West in general know how little respect the Russians have for human life (read Russian and Soviet history and the millions of their own people that they killed for no reason whatsoever). Combine that lack of respect for human life with the thousands of nuclear bombs the Russians posses and you will understand why the West is taking Russia seriously.
Russia will never become a superpower by blackmailing the world with annihilation.
China on the other hand is on its way to becoming a superpower. They have realized that in the 21st century you can not become a superpower through blackmail and threat of nuclear annihilation but through ECONOMIC MIGHT.
pre 16 godina
Here in the US our media is ratcheting up tensions with Russia big time! This is definitely building up to something. We (US) cannot live without a boogeyman or two or twenty, so Russia/Serbia fit quite nicely. It is sad to see a once benevolent, great freedom loving country fall so far from grace. The US will make a fool out of itself over the Kosovo issue and soon it will have to withdraw from Iraq & Afghanistan with our tail between their legs. The Soviet Union fell shortly after they left Afghanistan and sadly Americans can't learn from their mistakes or others. So be it, let them vote, or should I say let them (Russia/China) VETO!
pre 16 godina
Nick,
you suggested to Kate;
"You somehow seem to believe that the US is afraid to unilaterally recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Why is that?"
- the answer is simple it is not a case of afraid but is question of whether the US is dumb enough to ignore the UN and the resolution that they themselves formulated and signed ??? Do you not understand that a bluff needs to be credible and this is not credible that said it can be stupid but it still does not make it credible!!!
If the answer turns out to be Yes the US are dumb enough then expect the US to lose the last ounce of international credibility just when they need all the help they can get given the quagmire of Iraq, Afghanistan, and on issues with Missile defence in Europe, Iran, N,Korea, Darfur etc etc.... Equally but more importantly with the 'sui generis' that they clung onto thrown out by such inept actions they open the 'pandora box' for Russia to do the same and treat it's interest in the near abroad that it would want recognised too - US losing face in Georgia and other places that are more important then Serbia's province of Kosovo & Metohija! What is more important to the US seeing as Russia is in a win-win with the best scenario being from their perpective a hasty move by the US ensuring the Veto & forcing the dumb move by the US!!!
If the answer is No they are not dumb enough (which they have told Ceku - only he is keeping very quiet since end of May) then I look forward to your response in the next few days when this folly is finally laid to rest.
It is important that all the People of Serbia can progress and economic development that is much required in the province is allowed to florish. However, with the scenario that you are aspiring for in the US being dumb enough to Illegally recognise an Illegal entity don't expect much for the future beyond what has proceeded for Northern Cyprus!!!
I have always said that win-win is in the best interest of ALL the People of Serbia - anything less is lose-lose. Surely it is better for the future of the next generation that all the people of Serbia progress forward with a new found trust and reconciliation which can drive the economy of the Serbian province and Serbia as a whole rather then give that all up for empty promises that are not someones to give?
The choice is for the making at least one thing is certain this Friday will be D-Day i.e. Decision Day.
No Vote = No Independence
Vote+Veto = No Independence
I am positive that The US is not so Dumb and look forward to Saturday when there will be No Independence, No ILLEGAL Unilateral declaration, No Illegal recognition and No Violence and everyone will realise that alternatives must be found that satisfy all the peoples for a better future for ALL!
pre 16 godina
Princip,
And you believe that the Russian threat of veto is credible?
Even though the Russians have NOT YET explicitly threatened to veto.
pre 16 godina
People and nations find all sorts of ways to steal property This is theft like everything else. Great Britain was only great because they stole from the rest of the world at every turn. America is doing the same thing in Iraq now, and not so long ago in Central and South America. It does not take long for smaller nations to learn from the big ones that they can steal as well. Albania for example wants to steal parts of Serbia, Macedonia and Greece. It is simply a disease that small nations catch from the big ones. Small nations immunize their theft by using the big brother as a patron, Albania using America for example. The big nations spread this disease to small ones and small nations realize that this theft cam be legalized because their patron makes the rules. You see the nation that has the nukes makes the rules and have control of the earth. Is it wonder that Iran wants the nukes as well? The law is what the big nations make it since they are law unto themselves. They do not make the laws to protect small nations; their international courts are not instruments of justice but courts to legitimize theft. When Serbs and others are sent to The Hague it will make little difference whether they are guilty or innocent; but it’s better if you have a patron with nukes when this happens. To have a patron with nukes you have to have something that the patron wants, strategic location, resources or a strong wealthy lobby in your patron’s homeland who geese’s the political wheels of those “thieves” who run the patron’s government. . You cannot have a patron unless you have some influence. First and last it’s a question of influence. Those countries who own the earth, who have weapons make the laws to protect what they have and to get more of what they don’t have or what they will need. These men and women do this in the name of the nation but really they are doing it in the name of corporate interests and propertied classes. . They put up all sorts of fence, put up all sorts of firewalls, write all sorts of lies or they write laws to get around Tribunals themselves that they create for others or they fix the law so the small nation is isolated and induced to comply with the theft of their national territory by promises of membership in this or that organization that the thieves control. In the end these promises are violated with impunity. Look at all the treaties that the Yugoslav government signed over the years, everyone has been violated. The small nation that feed like piglets on the “teats” of their patrons, mark my words, will be the next bacon of the patron. The world my Balkan friends is really organized for the protection of the nations who rule the world. The United Nations was never organized as a force to do justice it was organized to exploit small nations in the name of the elite classes that dominate the social structure within. Be you Serb or Albanian there is no system called justice and the only way you will get justice is to work together and get rid of big nations who exploit you and use you for their own national interest.
pre 16 godina
Zoran it is strange to me that you “live in USA” and talk bad about the US it is shame that you “spill the beans” for someone else. A recommendation to you goes to Russia because you belong there not in mighty USA
How you people ask Albanians to stay in Serbia (a new grave site opens today) What is that some 500 chicken were butchered and thrown away in a mass grave or were they human beings with history emotions family loves one like me and you and everyone else. This is the savage side of the human race. It is ease to say I’m right but is inhumane when the facts point to another direction and you still keep a straight face saying I’m right because I say so
After so much consideration, I concluded that I need to personally apologize to the families of those Albanians still missing or are in this recent grave.
We Serbians are not all the same but those bad individuals that have done those horrible things are the scum of the Serbian people and had made us look very bad in the eyes of the world.
On the other hand, for most of my co-patriots Albanians are not a factor in their discussions I think some people here ADD attention deficit disorder. Princip for example mention people of Serbia but Albanians are not mention in his discussion what a shame.
If you mister Princip get paid for this go where the professionals are and leave us amateurs alone
pre 16 godina
I think it's about time we all face up the the fact that independence is inevitable, and that Serbs and Albanians alike should be the first to congratulate the newest state pending approval by it's legislature and an official proclamation of independence. Let us together be the first to bypass the United Nations and unilaterally salute this newest State, spawned from a state that is, " too big, too corrupt, and no longer services the needs of it's citizens." Some say Kosovo....NOT....I salute the Breakaway Republic of.......VERMONT! In addition, I second a UN resolution for immediate recognition of the Independent Republic of Vermont with full diplomatic status, and the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of the nationalist occupying forces of the United States and it's paramilitary loyalists who have crossed the borders terrorizing a helpless and frightened people, who's only desire is to live in peace, unshackled from this tyrannical neighbor and oppressor. Supplies are urgently needed along with volunteers....
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/04/national/main2881111.shtml
pre 16 godina
«We Serbians are not all the same but those bad individuals that have done those horrible things are the scum of the Serbian people and had made us look very bad in the eyes of the world.»
Svetlana, it's the first time I read something as powerful, coming from a Serb. Most of the Serbs on this forum point at the Croats, who are responsible, the Muslim Bosnians who are responsible, the Albanians who are responsible; the USA, NATO, the EU, and minimize the atrocities and the numbers...
I congratulate you for your courage, because many Serbs from this forum, living confortably in the USA or UK, will call you anti-Serb and will insult you because you do not think like them, and you don't write what they expect of you.
Thank God that there are intelligent Serbs like you who make a difference.
pre 16 godina
Serbia must show its disapproval of American and British actions in Kosovo.
In September 2006 the Serbian government signed a status-of-forces agreement with America which allows American troops and warplanes to cross Serbia at will.
This agreement should be terminated immediately. America was Serbia’s enemy in 1999 and nothing has changed since.
Serbia should throw out the British Ambassador and down grade the embassy to a mere consulate.
pre 16 godina
Svetlana, you surprised me.
I lost my brother and still cannot find at least his bones.
You are the only serb I could read to apologise.
Your apology is really accepted.
Anytime I see serbs I relate them to "murders".
Svetlana thanks for helping me to change my view.
One more thing serbs did kill Albanian christians too, my brother is one of them.
pre 16 godina
Svetlana... maybe you should watch something else other then CNN, CBC, BBC... the worlds biggest propaganda stations. And focus on say GREECE, CHINA, SERBIA, RUSSIA and anyone else who is currently releasing UNBIASED news on this topic. Serbs are the victims here. But I would so love to see Russian nukes stationed in Serbia and then see who will support the Albanian terrorists. You are as much a Serb as is Clinton. I very much so doubt that you are though.
pre 16 godina
Svetlana!
Let's wait and see if there really is a mass grave first. They will start digging tomorrow as I understood to see if there actually are people burried there. Before that there is only speculation of a mass grave.
But where are the remains of more than 2 000 serb civilians missing from the Kosovo conflict I wonder!?!
Where are the apologies from the albanians?
Are serb lives less important than albanian lives?
Who started the killing? KLA or serb police?
pre 16 godina
to "nothing less than freedom":
there died poeple on all sides. that does not justify k-albanian dreams of an annexation of serbian territory. so, please stop whining, it really doesn´t help the matter.
and to Nick:
what for heavens sake do the Russians have to say at all, to convince you about their unwillingness to approve a resolution that is dead on arrival?
I mean, come on, be realistic! it´s a done deal, after all what we could read in the last weeks.
and now it seems as if the US just want to have a veto in order to blame Russia for everything, not only their resistance against the missile-shield...
pre 16 godina
Mr Kostunica,
Pleas,do you know who did that mass grave in Serbia teritory with albanians body. the ANSWER is: THE SERBIAN STATE DID IT. Does it make sens for albanian in Kosovo to be anymore Serbian citizen? The answer is a absolutly big NOOOO.
pre 16 godina
Svetlana, you live in a dream world where the US is still "mighty" and where Serbs should "apologize" for defending their own country against a US/German backed Albanian (KLA was launching attacks from Albania) insurgents. I was born here US), and I will not accept the EVIL that this country imposes on weaker nations including Iraq & Afghanistan. You have what I refer to as a 1950's mentality, when the US was truly "mighty" in every way. This is 2007 and the US is only #1 when it comes to debt 600,000 per household on average and #1 in defence spending. America is living on borrowed time and China's, Japan's, etc money. Thank you for your suggestion, however my comments about the US are not done in hate but a sincere desire to speak the truth so that the wrongs here can be made right, as I'm sure your comments are not intended to be anti-Serb or anti-yourself.
pre 16 godina
«You are as much a Serb as is Clinton. I very much so doubt that you are though.»
So, according to you, a Serb is the one who lives in constant denial of what happened; of what has been done in Serbia's name by an handful of criminals who have tarnished for many generations the image of all Serbs across the world!
pre 16 godina
Here's what a Western expert says about the Russian stance
""Russia has no leverage over the Balkan states and knows it. There's no way that Russia could stop the Ahtisaari plan if the West stands united in favor of it. Its veto power in the Security Council is symbolic. After all the US invaded Iraq without a UN mandate," said Alexander Rahr, program director for Russia at the German Council on Foreign Relations."
-----------------------------
pre 16 godina
Generalizing is always and however wrong,but indeed what serbs did in the past decade din't helped me in the formation of my opinion about them,and it is a quite bad one.And from what i see here in this forum,serbs that really feel the sense of guilt for what their own people did,exists!
I appreciate this and i think that it is a good starting point for the future,and i hope that the word "peace" will be the lightmotive in the relations between the two states,Kosova and Serbia.
pre 16 godina
Walter, what you say about the big nations is right and I don't think anyone in this forum is about to think that there is space for justice in there agendas. Obviously, this fits to all big nations not only to one. What you don't seem to know and I hope because of the lack of information is that first of all Albania is not at all willing to steel (just to use your word) land from their neighbours. Nowhere you can find such a declaration from the state of Albania. Second, you miss the point. Kosova wants independence because it's the will of the people that lives there. Nothing to say against people's will?? What you seem not to know either is that albanians that live in Kosovo, Macedonia, south of Serbia, Montenegro and north of Greece have always lived there. And it has been because of some will of the big nations that albanians have been divided in so many countries. There are 3.2 million albanians in Albania. Albanians that live in their territories outside the state of Albania reach more than 3 millions. No other population in the Balkans has lost as much as the albanians when the big nations decided the borders. In addition, albanians that remained outside the state of Albania where repeatedly treated from the governments of the countries where they found themselves(against their will) as second class citiziens. This was mostly enforced in Kosovo, because more numerous.So, be careful and understand; albanians want only their rights. In Macedonia for example, before the agreement of Oher, even though albanians were about 30 per cents of the population (macedonians say 20 and albanians say 40, let's agree on the avarage)their language was not official and no school in albanian was legal. Now, they have managed it someway and albanian is the second official language in the country and they have their own representation in the public administration. Consequently, noone in Macedonia is willing to join Albania and the two countries are in good relations. Kosovo is a different question and there is no turning back on its way to independence. Once again there is no practical possibility tha Kosovo joins Albania and not because of the international will, but because neither the two countries want it. I strongly believe that in the Balkan is needed cooperation and one of my dreams is to leave in peace and harmony with each other because all these wars have only destroyed us. The people of the Balkans have a lot in common, more than you can imagine, but cooperation and peace comes only when all the populations consider themselves equal to each other. Then comes the real peace. We will know each other and we will be surprised on how the stereotypes have left us such distant. Sadly, for the moment this is possible to understand only when you're away from the Balkans and you have the chance to know the other people from the Balkans (this is what has happened to me).
Svetlana, I'm glad you intervened, not because I thought that no serb was able to accept what has happened. I knew there were, but this forum is such full of division and it seemed that there was no space for dialogue. Let us try to build another place based on good neighborhood. It will be better for us all. I absolutely think we are able to do it.
pre 16 godina
Anton - what do you believe will happen if the UN does not approve independence and Kosovo is not backed by the US to announce unilateral independence?
I genuinely want to know, because no-one on this site even allows for that possibility.
"Nobody is going to take up arms in that situation. I see that they are holding Kurti and probably others who they suspect may stir up violence if there is no independence."
What about you Kate, what do you think it will happen in this case? Will the serbs round up their tanks and bomb the hell of Kosovo again?
pre 16 godina
«We Serbians are not all the same but those bad individuals that have done those horrible things are the scum of the Serbian people and had made us look very bad in the eyes of the world.»
All nations have the destructive potential, even Albanians. However, people have to judge and be judged according to the evidence. Serbs (police, military, and paramilitary forces) have commited a magnitude of crimes against humanity. The world will not forget that they are accountable for over 15 thousand masacred and killed. THOSE ARE VICTIMS OF SERB FORCES. It is for the Serbs as a nation to denounce them. It is for serbs as a nation to sort their own garbage and disgrace. The sooner they will do this the sooner they will bring their nation any kind of dignity. Otehrwise they will live under the dark shadow of their crimes as a nation state.
When I read the forum, I get discouraged because I see that majority of serbs (ADD or not) are still resisting their crimes and opose the DIVORCE with the nation that they harmed to a great level.
What is ironic is that, serbia would loose a lot more than just Kosova if they don't change their anti Albanian politics. The irony gets even bigger when facing the facts that majority of serbs are still nationalists and adhere to their unrealistic dreams.
I hope that there will be a serb born who will actually lead the troubled nation from the darkness to the light and have it one more time join the nation states who consider humanity and human life more than their ill myths.
pre 16 godina
To all who support Albanian independence... You should read this article (written by an American) and visit the website (in article) set up by a former ambassador to the Hague. And not in "she said - he said" view the photo gallery and then come back here and dare to comment. All should see this website. Victor (Anti-Serb Croat)you especially!!! And for your information I am 100% Canadien, the only Serbian connection I have is my wife who is Serbian.
pre 16 godina
To all here is the news link I spoke of, it is sure to change minds and hearts of many > http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=28597
pre 16 godina
First of all, Svetlana, please give everyone your real name, the way you cut down Serbs, refer to the 'mighty USA', and praise albanians, you are clearly not a Serb.
On a lighter note, I want to congratulate the Serb tennis players at the French Open! Ana Ivanovic and Jelena Jankovic are in the semi-finals, Nenad Zimonjic is in the semi-finals in both men's doubles and mixed doubles, and Novak Djokovic is playing tomorrow and hopefully he will make it to the semi-finals too. Quite an amazing achievement for such a small country!! You have made all of us very proud. Good luck to all! Ziveli!
pre 16 godina
Kosovo is a done deal.
pre 16 godina
The UN, US, and the EU must know that the only solution for Kosovo and Metohija, province of Serbia is internationally-supervised autonomy and continued dialogue between Belgrade and Pristina.
I don't know what makes a mature bunch of elected, think illogically and with parroted phrases.
International Law tells us, (you and me) respect sovereign territory.
Respect Serbia's sovereign territory. Russia does, and as a result is gaining much respect around the world.
The world media can put whatever spin they wish, it won't sell.
Prime Minister Kostunica is totally supported for his stance in protecting Serbian territory.
pre 16 godina
Svetlana and Victor who praises you do not understand the difference between an innuendo and a euphemism. In fact nether understands the subtle media methods that fabricate numbers, omit information, and outright lie about events in former Yugoslavia. I have had officers of the Canadian armed forces in my home who were my students and they said that many reports about their contact with Serbian forces were fabricated. Word usage is a powerful weapon which was used by the Croats, Muslims and Albanians to demonize the Serbs. These reporters were paid by the state department to lie. Christiana Amanpour was the biggest liar of the lot. Amanpour is the wife of Jamie Ruben Assistant Secretary of State in the Clinton administration who fed the American public one lie after another. For example the New York Times reporter wrote that “Milosevic was “resolute” and “forceful,” and that Richard May, the former Presiding Judge at the trial, was only “sober, polite and tough,” whereas Milosevic was “contemptuous” and “carping.” Anyone who saw the trial and I saw every bit of it Milosevic was never rude, never arrogant, never belligerent, but always polite and patient while judge May was arrogant, rude, and full of himself a typical stuffed shirt without a personality. Svetlana you speak of a mass grave without any idea if there is a mass grave. Any time an issue arise that US wants to push through like the Kosovo question they find mass graves, they tell us million ethnically cleansed, they tell us four hundred thousand raped, they tell us three hundred thousand dead and mostly Muslims. These are simple lies repeated often that people like you Svetlana and Victor swallow hook line and sinker. You Svetlana and Victor from Quebec (that is a joke) need to ask a simple question about propaganda and that question is WHO BENEFITS. Once you answer that question you will be able to tell a lie from the truth. Please don’t get me wrong one killed or raped person is one too many no matter what ethnic group they come from. During WWI Western media wrote that Germans were throwing babies into the air and then bayoneting them and making sausages from corpses. History books today, however, blame all sides equally for WWI. Germany is blamed for starting WWII; however JP Taylor a renowned British historian blames the English with equal amount of ink. Mark Twain, Nikola Tesla’s good friend, said “Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception” Who was attacked here? Yugoslavia and later Serbia. Who benefited? Multinational Corporation and the Western Military industrial Complex including NATO. There are two levels of lies in the West “The first layer says, that you don’t need to report the truth as long as you write something that is plausible and the second strategy is to tell the truth but withhold the other side’s point of view.. Victor and Svetlana it takes two to tango.
pre 16 godina
To Walter
"Albania for example wants to steal parts of Serbia, Macedonia and Greece."
It is not Albania that wants to steal parts of other states. Other states have stolen from Albania during history. Albania is not claiming what belongs to it which is very sad. Read more than your schoolbooks and you will find how Albania was divided during years. This is only time that some of great powers are with albanians and you do make problems. Then why is Russia supporting serbs??!! Serbia has no ground in claiming Kosova. Here you have some ground to explore further. If there are churches, when were they build and by whom? What was there before these churches? Why they build churches in Kosova? Which parts of Balcan were populated by Albanians? When did that changed? How many Albanians are now in Turkey and how they were moved there?
pre 16 godina
«...many reports about their contact with Serbian forces were fabricated.»
Walter, I can assure you that at my age I can see the difference between an innuendo and an euphemism! Can you see the difference between facts and propaganda?
What happened in Omarska, in Brcko, in Keraterm, and in so many 'detention' camps, are these facts or propaganda?
What happened in Vukovar, the assassination of 300 patients from the local hospital, is this a fact or propaganda?
The killing of 200 Muslims on Mount Vlasic by Darko Mrdja, is it propaganda?
The burning of more than 500 women and children in Visegrad by Lukic and his paramilitaries, is this a fact or propaganda?
And the systematic rape campaign across Bosnia, is this a fact or propaganda.
And I could continue this enumeration with countless facts.
You should not listen, Walter, to a few persons whom reports were falsified and made a rule of it. There are always exceptions, I know, and I can make the difference between the general rule and the exception. Can you?
pre 16 godina
Canadian, the fact that you are husband of Serbian woman is enough. Even more, if you have children then they are half-half...
Clarification about something you are merging - to have majority population of muslim religion doesn't mean to be islamic country. Even in oposit case, why all these fear from islamic world?! By the way Albanian nation belongs to Muslim, Catholic and Orthodox religions and since the centuries there were no religious conflicts among them... Don't worry, there have proved their inter-religious tolerance and it is their treasure...
pre 16 godina
»Victor (Anti-Serb Croat)you especially!!! And for your information I am 100% Canadien.»
No Canadians in Canada would make such a mistake! You have certainly emigrated recently to Canada.
Quebec was founded in 1648 and my ancestor arrived in Quebec in 1680, directly from France.
As for your accusation, I am not anti-Serb, or anti-Croat; I am anti war criminals, no matter if their ethnicity!
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Rovena; Victor: and Albanian forever.
Rovana thank you for pointing out my spelling glitch of the word “steal” in one place even though it was spelled correctly in several previous sentences. I could point out that you confuse “leave” and “live”, “their” and “there” and so on but that is OK since English is a tough language and that is not the issue here. The issue is what you say not how you say it. Mr. Albanian forever here is some food for your thought concerning the Balkans. Eighth Century Slav tribes settle into the territories of present-day Slovenia, Bosnia, Croatia, Montenegro and Serbia, and assimilate the Illyrian populations of these regions. There is no anthropological or linguistic evidence that shows Albanians are Illyrians even though some historians particularly in Albania would like this to be so. In 1081 Albania and Albanians or Shqiperisë are mentioned for the first time in a historical record, by a Byzantine emperor. Ottoman Turks; conquered Skadar and many Albanians fled to southern Italy, Greece, Egypt, and elsewhere while those that remained were forced to convert to Islam. Albanians who converted to Islam, like Serbs who converted, became bureaucrats in the Ottoman Empire. In fact Serbian language became the diplomatic language of the Ottoman Empire. Young boys from the Balkans of all nationalities were abducted to Constantinople and became Janissaries (Read Andrich’s book Bridge on the River Drina” and the following explains some of your question?
!4th Century: Out of the 2,166 farming homesteads and 2,666 houses in cattle-grazing land, 44 were registrated as Albanian (1,8%). Others were registered as Slavic mostly Serbian.
15th Century: The 1445 Turkish cadestral tax census on the territory of Kosovo 12,844 Serbian housing while 46 were Albanian households
If you go to this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo#14th_century you will see how this demographic change eventually favoured the Albanian population.
Rovena what you seem not to understand is violations of international law, injustice, and the harm done by nationalists seeking a “polace in the sun.”. You choose to suport the dominant ideology because it suits your nationalistic bias. This is also true for your cheerleader Victor who omits the resons for the examples that he provides. I am not saying that the reasons justify the outcome but only a rabbid nationalist would omit telling this forum thhat the prior killing of Serbian women and children in Vukovar Pakrac, Gospic, Srebrenica and so on did not cause the retaliation by the paramilitary forces who were at one time citizens of those towns. Victor is a courtroom transelator in Vancouver, I think, and he knows that there are two sides to every story. He chooses to tell one side a method of a true propagandist who only sees intelligent Serbs when they agree with him even to a point where he agrees with Svetlana who has not read beyond “The Three Little Pigs”. Facts Victor can be proven with evidence, and annalysis and your facts are self serving. You forget Victor that natural law presupposes that all humans are created equal and independent, which reveals “no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions.” There are laws to change society. Resorting to violence is not acceptable behavior for mankind unless an individual’s freedom is in danger of being relinquished. The last point here Victor explains that each case you cite as an example of Serbian atrocities were a reaction by them to atrocities by the other side against them and their families. Yugoslavia had a legal system and you know something about law Victor that was open to these people to use and fight the legal injustice. Instead Slovenians, Croats, Muslims and Albanians in Kosovo decided to break that law, however unjust, by killing the young Macedonian soldier in Split, massacring Serbians in Gospic, throwing grenades into Serbian cafes in Kosovo, sexually assaulting and killing women and children around Srebrenica and in Vukovar. Did you really think Victor that the Serbians would march into another Jasenovac where 700 000 met a brutal death just a half century before. You mention Omarska but you neglect to tell the participants that this film was fabricated and used as propaganda to attack the Serbs in Bosnia. It is you Victor that is blinded by the chess board that is unable to see truth from fiction. If you examine the events in former Yugoslavia you must know that every act against the Serbs was preceded by a propaganda campaign, an event was manufactured to justify what followed. Omarsks, breadline massacre, rape camps, Racak all events staged for one purpose NATO justification for their agenda which was to break up Yugoslavia. Victor you use this NATO propaganda and don’t provided any evidence of scholastic nature in your ramblings but accuse me of not reading. It will take you a lifetime to read and understand what I have read. Read General Nambiar’s reports, General Rose’s reports, General McKenzie’s reports, or Rollie Keith’s reports, all soldiers on the front line in Bosnia. No Victor, you rather read Christiana Amanpour the state department propagandist and use her reports as evidence. Victor writes “I know, and I can make the difference between the general rule and the exception. Can you” Yes Victor your general rule is Serbs are guilty of killing Christ, starting WWI, WWII, dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. while Slovenians, Croats Muslims and Albanians who started this mess in the Balkans are an exception. When you have some evidence come back on the forum.
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«...each case you cite as an example of Serbian atrocities were a reaction by them to atrocities by the other side against them and their families.»
Can you explain why Darko Mrdja took off buses 200 Muslims on Mount Slavic, in August 1992, and gunned them down?
Can you explain why 300 patients were taken from the hospital in Vukavar in Nov. 1991, brought to the Ovcara farm, and gunned sown?
You say that Omarska is an hoax. Can you explain why 100s of Muslims have been killed there during 3 months?
Walter, tell me what the Muslims have done to deserve to be killed by the 100s from 1992 to 1995? Did you know that during the summer of 1992, from June to September, more than 50 000 Muslims have been killed in 43 municipalities in Bosnia?
I am waiting for the answers.
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Walter,
First of all I was not correcting your english at all, I hadn't even noticed since you didn't say it(typical balkan susceptibility). The point was that steal was an offensive term!Regarding to the number and dates you gave to me and to my "cheerleader" Victor (obviously I know him as much as I know you, but you want to divide people in two sectors), everything is disputed. I give you a recent example (if you catch the point); the surveys of the World Bank say that in Bosnia only 7 percent of the population is living by agricultural, because these were the data they could have. Facts show that more than 60 percent of bosnians live by agriculture. After some decades,when I will be searching data for the year 2006 this is the number I will have, but it doesn't correspond to the reality. So, I would really be careful to confide on numbers that come from 1400. Especially if we are talking about albanians that have always lived on their own (this is a fact, not a vaunt) for many reasons, principally to my opinion beacause of language. I'm not about to link you here the page of wikipedia that talks about the roots of albanian language, but you can find it by yourself. Note that this page doesn't have the note "The factual accuracy of this article or section is disputed" that is present in the link about demographic history of Kosovo that you sent to me (as I told you, credible sources are really difficuilt to find..)What you really don't know is that there were not the albanians that proved the common roots of albanian language with the illyrian one, but german and austrian scholars. Maybe it would be better for you to keep the food for the thoughts that you were offering around, cause I believe you need it more. For example to understand that being mentioned for the first time (and we must be careful what it means in this aspect for the first time; what we have in possess yet,what has survived the hard times, wich doesn't really mean for the first time absolutely)in the middle age in the books of the Byzantine doesn't confirm that there was no existance before. You know, people used to exist even before the invention of the paper, what do you think? How can you explain such a unique language (if you find the famous tree of the indoeuropean language, you will see albanian as a seperate branch and the oldest one - look: not albanian made!)with this appearance after the 11th century? So, my friend try to meditate instead of hanging on doubtful numbers and evidence. Maybe it will give you more answers. Regarding to Ivo Andric, you know, it is obviuos that you are such bad-informed. This "excellent" man in 1939, during his years at serbian ministry of foreign affairs, wrote a document called "draft on albania" that finishes like this: "Taking possession of Shkodra could, in this case, be of great moral and economic significance. It would enable us to carry out major waterworks activities and to recuperate fertile land needed to feed Montenegro. The presence of northern Albania within the framework of Yugoslavia would facilitate the existence of new communications links between northern and southern Serbia and the Adriatic.
After the partition of Albania, Kosovo would lose its attraction as a centre for the Albanian minority which, under the new situation, could be more easily assimilated. We would eventually gain 200,000 to 300,000 Albanians, but these are mostly Catholics whose relations with the Moslem Albanians have never been good. The deportation of Moslem Albanians to Turkey could then be carried out since, under the new circumstances, there would be no major impediment to such a move" Do you really think any sane person would believe on what he says about the balkans and its history??? So tell me Walter, who's the nationalist among us? One last thing, the will of the people is the biggest force ever known and the end it will win. International law is not the speech of god, but just a misarable attempt of your "dear" big nations to rule the world regarding their own interests.
Good day to you all!
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OK Victor it does not surprise me that you chose these examples but you could have provided just as many from the other side to give a balance swince you claim neutrality. First Victor “this occurred in a region where memories of extremely bloody civil war during World War II were still very much alive.” I remember visitintg a region in Herzegovina in 1974 [Plana} with my Canadian wife. We stopped at a roadside inn and after introducing my wife as a daughter of a man from Ljubuski who immigrated to Canada in 1927 the lady got uop from the table and walked away. Why? Long memory? Outside her Inn is a karst pit {jama} into which Croats and mostly Muslims threw some 100 men from the local region killing them all. As I said in my previous posts the wars after “1992 was a resumption of the vicious cycle of massacres and vengeance” that devastated Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia and Kosovo in 1941-44, when the Nazi [ Muslim, Croat and Albanian} proceeded to eliminate Serbs.
Croats and Muslims also “herded their adversaries into "horrible" camps at the start of the civil war, on the way to expulsion.” Bosnian Serbs did not have a patron to protect them like the Bosnian Muslims who “enjoyed the services of high-powered U.S. public relations experts in the Washington-based Ruder Finn agency who knew how to "spin" the Bosnian conflict in order to equate the Serbs with the Nazis-the quickest and easiest way to win public opinion over to the Muslim” and Croat side. “The news media and political figures were showered with press releases and other materials exaggerating Serb atrocities, whereas Muslim atrocities (such as the decapitations of Serb prisoners, fully documented) remained confidential. To the public, this was a one-sided conflict between a Serbian "fascist aggressor" and innocent victims, all unarmed civilians.”
At the French General Morillon testified {this is public record] at the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague, stressing “that the Muslim commander in Srebrenica, Naser Oric, "engaged in attacks during Orthodox holidays and destroyed villages, massacring all the inhabitants.” Marillion knew Oric personally and he further testified saying "Naser Oric was a warlord who reigned by terror in his area and over the population itself. I think that he realized that these were the rules of this horrific war, that he could not allow himself to take prisoners. According to my recollection, he didn't even look for an excuse. It was simply a statement: One can't be bothered with prisoners." Morillion further testified that “the Serbs took me to a village to show me the evacuation of the bodies of the inhabitants that had been thrown into a hole, a village close to Bratunac. Any intelligent person who is not in denial will understand that retribution is part of life in the Balkans and almost anywhere else in the world particularly when a man finds his home razed to the grtound and his family slaughtered. Marillion understood that and he testified that he “feared that the Serbs, the local Serbs, the Serbs of Bratunac, these militiamen, they wanted to take their revenge for everything that they attributed to Naser Oric. It wasn't just Naser Oric that they wanted to revenge, take their revenge on, they wanted to revenge their dead on Orthodox Christmas."
It is clear to me if not to you Victor that Srebrenica and its environs and Vukovar were the same process of revenge “against those who killed Serbian civilians” Read the testimony of Serbian civilians from Vukovar and Srebrenica It is clear enough that the soldiers in the hospital and the ones that fled Srebrenica “feared exactly what everyone aware of the situation dreaded: that Serb soldiers would take vengeance on the men they considered guilty of murdering Serb civilians and prisoners.”
Victor why do you omit Gospic where Tesla’s home was burned to the ground and dozens of Serbian men killed before the war started in Croatia. You ignore Croats holding Muslim Prisoners in Oil storage tanks in Mostar where heat reacher over 45 degrees Celsius and Muslim Camps in railway tunnels . You also ignore what Marvine Howe in the New York Times (July 12, 1981), quoting an Albanian official in Kosovo states about ethnic cleansing. She writes that as 1981, “ethnic cleansing in relation to the policies of the Kosovo Albanian administration creating an "ethnically clean" territory (i.e. "cleanly" Albanian) in the province. This was used extensively by the Croats in Krajina and Serbs in their region and to a lesser extent by the Muslims.
Victor lets take a look at the Muslim leadership and their aims. From the U.N. Secretary General's 1999 Report on Srebrenica, it emerges that the idea of a "Srebrenica massacre" was already in the air at a September 1993 meeting in Sarajevo between Bosnian Muslim president Alija Izetbegovic and members of his Muslim party from Srebrenica.” Isebegovich, his own party members testified, wanted some 5000 Muslims killed in Srebrenica to get the Americans on side and to portray the Muslims as victims. His people were horrified at this
“Izetbegovic later denied this, but he is outnumbered by witnesses. It is clear that Izetbegovic's constant strategy was to portray his Muslim side in the bloody civil war as pure helpless victims, in order to bring U.S. military power in on his side.” Again the examples of this include other staged events i.e. the breadline massacre even though they were mostly Serbs, rape camps, concentration camps like the ones you mention Victor where the emaciated TB infected Muslim man was filmed. Srebrenica on the other hand “falsely identifying Milosevic with the Bosnian Serb leadership and by exploiting the notion that Srebrenica killings were part of a vast Serb plan of "genocide" carried out against non-Serbs for purely racist reasons, Madeleine Albright was able to advocate the NATO war against Yugoslavia as necessary to prevent "another Srebrenica" in Kosovo, where the situation was altogether different.”
Evidence indicates that “U.S. used "Srebrenica" for two clear purposes:
1. to draw attention away from the U.S.-backed Croatian offensive which drove the Serb population out of the Krajina which, as much as Srebrenica, was supposed to be protected by the United Nations;
2. to implicate Bosnian Serb leaders in "genocide" in order to disqualify them from negotiating the future of Bosnia-Herzegovina. (The U.S. preferred to replace them at Dayton by Milosevic, whose eagerness to end the war could be exploited to get concessions the Bosnian Serbs might refuse”
“On his death bed, Isetbegovich “readily admitted as much to his ardent admirer Bernard Kouchner, in the presence of U.S. diplomat Richard Holbrooke. Kouchner reminded Izetbegovic of a conversation he had had with French President Mitterrand in which he "spoke of the existence of 'extermination camps' in Bosnia. You repeated that in front of the journalists. That provoked considerable emotion throughout the world. [...] They were horrible places, but people were not systematically exterminated. Did you know that?” this was isetbegovich’s reply “Yes. I thought that my revelations could precipitate bombings. I saw the reaction of the French and the others-I was mistaken. [...] Yes, I tried, but the assertion was false. There were no extermination camps whatever the horror of those places. (2)”
It is interesting to note that both real [perpetrators of the Yugoslav tragedy Tudjman and Isetbegovich conveniently died before they could face the tribunal. What do you think Victor, coincidence or get rid of them because their bags are full of skeletons?
Victor I am not justifying any of this. If we don’t expose lies like yours and insist that one side did this or that and ignore the other it “simply prepare the next wave, which is what has already happened in the Balkans, and more than once. The dead victims cannot profit from such memories.” Nor can the living. Read my post on the G8 article it will give you a better idea where I stand and it is certainly not with you.
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Yes Rovana I know all about when paper was invented and I also know that history is written by people who bring in their own biases and their own interpretation and their own prejudices. However I also know that when the majority of historians agree on a point it is more likely true than when one person is alone. On the other hand, when one person questions the rest that sometimes is much better than agreement since the question leads to new investigations and new answers. Of course we need to look at when one group or another was referred to in documents for the first time. Documents are primary sources, the best kind of historical evidence, which historians use to interpret their significance in light of other sources. It is not possible to discuss something that we have no reference to because it just becomes a moot point. In my answer to you concerning how the Albanians and Serbs, for that matter, went to Turkey I used his book “Bridge on the River Drina” to explain a point about the Janissaries and you belittle his work that won the Nobel prize in literature by his 1937 stand on Skadar. If you don’t believe the origin of the Janissaries you have some problems and a lots of history to catch up on. The Ottomans rule in the Christian lands was harsh and based on the following policy: blood tax –children to serve as Janissaries or eunuch, tax -- money or goods, convert to Islam and if you refuse they cut your head off or impaled you on a “trklja” and placed you at a crossing or approach to a town so that you will be an example to all who refuse to obey. Majority of Albanians and many Serbs and some Croats converted others, fled like many Albanians and Serbs, after the Battle of Kosovo for example, others were impaled. What most people seem not to know is that Albanians and Hungarians fought with the Serbs against the Ottomans at the Battle of Kosovo. Back to Andric Europe was awash in chauvinism and nationalism at that time so that should not detract from his great literary skill. You have a good day as well.
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Walter,
I think your writing is very powerful and simply put, excellent. However, I do think that the number of 700,000 slaughtered at Jasenovac alone is unsubstantiated and probably should not be cited as fact. A lot of my wife's family are buried there, but the total has not truly been determined. I do personally believe the total number of Serbs killed in WWII by the Ustashe is probably in reality close to 1,000,000 (According to Konnilyn Feig, a world renown expert on such things) however, I generally use the commonly accepted figure of 300,000 - 400,000.
"during the summer of 1992, from June to September, more than 50 000 Muslims have been killed in 43 municipalities in Bosnia?(Victor, Thursday, 7 June, 2007, 13:54)"
Victor, this is exactly the type of factual make-believe that Walter is talking about. Even if you insist on using Tokaca's numbers and not ICTY (which is where you claim to get your numbers) the total number of Bosniaks killed (Both Military and Civilian) is only 63,994 for the ENTIRE war. You're claiming that the vast majority of these deaths occurred in the summer of 92? What was happening the rest of the war?
The reality is Victor, according to the ICTY itself, Serbs represent 30% of the causalities in Bosnia and 34% of the population. I can not possibly see how it is as one sided as you claim.
"Note that this page doesn't have the note "The factual accuracy of this article or section is disputed"(Rovena, Thursday, 7 June, 2007, 16:51)"
Rovena, this Wiki page doesn't have that note either, but it claims "Kosovo, the Serbian part of former Yugoslavia, where a massive ethnic cleansing campaign took place in the late 1990s, when millions were forced out their homes and over 100,000 were murdered". However that doesn't make it true, claiming 100,000 were murdered is a little crazy, wouldn't you agree? Wiki is a great starting place and if its well written it lists a proper source that you can then go to and cite. However, citing Wiki as a source itself is rather silly in my opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora
However, if you want to debate the merits of Wiki's section on the Albanian language, I'll quote this:
"Indeed, the very word for Greek, gërk, was borrowed from South Slavic; cf. Bulg. grŭk, Serb-Croat gr"k."
If this is true, to me it would most certainly indicate that the Albanians originate from an area that was NOT adjacent to Greece, and the first time they heard of Greeks was from Slavs. Therefore the only logical conclusion is that Albanians moved to their current area AFTER Slavs moved to the region. I'm guessing, if this is true, they are from Europe, just not the area they are in currently. I just don't see how its possible if they are in fact using a Slav word for Greek.
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To: Walter
Its great to see an apparent educated and sensible voice here. Well said with your remarks.
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Victor claims to be from Quebec Canada in an earlier post he made. That's a joke. If I were to quiz him with 10 questions about Quebec he would surely fail to answer any of them. As for the other person here who thinks I immigrated to Canada recently, you are wrong, I was born here. My grammar and use of English is proof of that, I may from time to time make a minor error in my text since I type very quickly, but mostly its evident that English is not my second language, unlike many others here.
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« If we don’t expose lies like yours and insist that one side did this or that and ignore the other ...»
I do not expose lies: Omarska is true, Vukovar is true, Mount Vlasic is true, Srebrenica is true... The major crimes and atrocities were perpetrated by the Serbs (soldiers, policemen, paramilitaries, milias) and the others (Croats and Muslim Bosniaks) have also committed their share but not to the same measure.
What you want to do is a balance equation, and this is a lie! Serb crimes = Muslim crimes. This is a lie. You know this. Find me one example where the Muslims have massacred 200, 300, 500, in one day.
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"Find me one example where the Muslims have massacred 200, 300, 500, in one day.
(Victor, Friday, 8 June, 2007, 03:36)"
Victor you're claiming an average of about 500 every single day at the beginning of the war for 4 months followed by an average of about 11 people killed per day for the rest of the war.
Anyone can easily see through your distortions of the numbers Victor. How does it go from 500 a day to only 11 Victor?
Victor, the reality is 30% of the causalities were Serbs according to the ICTY. Serbs make up 34% of the population. Please explain how this FACT fits into your world view. It can't, because your world view is completely in contradiction to established reality.
STOP POSTING LIES!!!!!!
Canadien, Victor really is a French Canadian. I find it silly to accuse people like that. PB actually accused me of being an Albanian, ha ha ha ha ha...
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Victor tells us that he does not lie but Victor does not tell the truth either, People lie many different ways just like you victor. They lie by omission, they lie by emphasizing one thing and de-emphasizing something else, they lie by writing reams of material on their argument but two sentences on its rebuttal, they lie by using innuendo and euphemisms, they lie by using pleasant words about things they agree with and unpleasant words with what they oppose, they lie by using statistics without evidence, do I need to go on. You have done all these things Victor in your posts. You are so predictable since you lie by not telling the whole story.
Let’s take a look at this one more time. Vukovar, Krajina and Srebrenica are similar in the cause and effect. I have never claimed that people did not die here or that only Muslims and Croats died as you say. The question is why they died? Here is why they died Victor. There were many Orich’s in the Vukovar hospital that killed Serbian men women and children and the surrounding areas in the same way as Orich did in and around Srebrenica. There are many Orich’s in government in Zagred and Pristina that started this mess.
Bill Schiller in the Toronto Star of 16 July 1995, wrote of Oric::
“On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his living room watching a shocking video version of what might have been called Nasir Oric’s Greatest Hits. There were burning houses, dead bodies, severed heads, and people fleeing. Oric grinned throughout admiring his handiwork. ‘We ambushed them,’ he said when a number of dead Serbs appeared on the screen. The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives: ‘We launched those guys to the moon,’ he boasted. When a footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: ‘We killed 114 Serbs there.’ Later there were celebrations, with singers with wobbly voices chanting his praises.”
Note the 114 Victor does that satisfy you? In grade one my teacher a Muslim man said that 1 + 1+ 10 + 88 = 100 and again in grade four my Serbian Math teacher said the same thing so when I came to Canada my grade five teacher also said that these numbers add up to 100. Add up all the bodies in Krajina and Bosnia of dead Serbian men and women and children and you will see how quickly they add up to many hundreds. This is also true of course of Muslim and Croat casualties. Why was this necessary. It was not. Its people like you Victor that see a difference in numbers. For me one killed is one too many I consider all Yugoslavs as my former contrymen and brothers. Even you Victor I consider as a brother but than Able and Cain were brothers as well. I know which one I am. Google Blagoja Blagojevic and you will see why people died.
Hercegovina is full of Karst pits or jamas that were sealed by Tito in order to promote brotherhood and unity. We almost got there Victor but unfortunately the WWII generation who pined for the Yugoslavia created by the Nazis opened those karst pits and Muslims and Croats taunted the Serbs who went there to retreve the remains of their forfathers with “take the dead out so we have more room for you”.
Serbs never wanted this war, You know that and I know that. Tudjman , Kucan, Isetbegovic and Cecu are on record speaking in favour of the war. In a telephone conversation between Karadjic and Milosevic , Milosevich is asking Karadjic to do everything possioble to prevent war in Bosnia and Karadjic replies “I will do everything that I can to stop the people from rising but Iset wants war and it is out of my hands”. This was a telephone conversation recorded by the CIA and played at The Hague.
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Matthew and Canadian thank you for your praise but really the praise should go to others who were on the ground in the region. . Matthew I have seen your figures on Jasenovac but the figure I give comes from Jasenovac by Carl Savich a history professor who writes: “In BespucaÝ povjesne zbiljnosti (The Wasteland of Historical Reality), Franjo Tudjman stated that ''about 60,000 perished in all the camps and prisons.'' According to Tudjman, 30,000 victims died at the Jasenovac camp. In 1952, the Union of Jewish Councils of Yugoslavia, relying on the reports of Jewish survivors, concluded that, in the Jasenovac camp alone, ''500,000-600,000 people were slaughtered, among whom were about 20,000 Jews.'' Menachem Shelah in The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990) gives the following figure:Ý ''Some six hundred thousand people were murdered at Jasenovac, mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and opponents of the Ustasha regime. The number of Jewish victims was between twenty thousand and twenty-five thousand.'' The Ustasha commander at Jasenovac, Frater Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic, during questioning after the war, stated that ''according to reports of Maks Luburic... about a half million Serbs were killed in the NDH during these four years.'' On October 20, 1994, Brussels Archbishop Cardinal Godfried Danneels in an interview to Vatican Radio, stated that ''even today it is impossible to say how many Serbs were assassinated in Croatian concentration camps in World War II, but for certain the number must have been over half a million persons.''
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To: Walter
I was on the ground. I worked for Macleans magazine as a photographer and I have seen first hand the truth just as Canadien Major-General Lewis MacKenzie did. I later met my wife to be in Serbia. She is a Serbian.
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We hear this every week. If, and only if, Russia decides to abstain will Kosovo become independent. Who knows what reasoning Russia will apply to it's Kosovo decision. No doubt Behar who has "high level contacts" will tell everyone what is really happening - hehehehe.
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The ball will be shot back for game set and match to the Russians as they have said all along haste will be "futile & counterproductive"
No Vote = No Independence
Vote + Veto = No Independence
Either way it is inevitable that there is going to be an end to such folly!!!
Following on with events next week there will be NO ILLEGAL unilateral declarations, No Illegal recognistion and No Violence as Ceku was informed last month when he went to the US!!!
I look forward to any comments to the contrary as we will only have a week to reflect on either viewpoint - I am quite confident about the events about to unfold seeing as they are clear for all to see - it would interesting to see the opposite viewpoints!!
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I think that Koshtunica has already made the necessary arrangements with RTS for a public apology to his nation next week when Kosovars will be celebrating in kosova for their recognized country. I think it would have been much easies if Koshtunica would have told his conutrymen about the independence of Kosova in 1999 and not next week. What a pitty.
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Reality is sinking, about time Koshtunica is showing the big sign of panic. he is getting ready to tell the serbiannation that sorry but we did everything possible, to no avail.
Ambasdador Khlazaid of US has told his russian counterpart that US along with its Western allies is firm on Kosova issue and they have plan B in place if russia uses veto. Plan B is to give e green light to Kosova parliament to declare their Independence and they will gat immediately recognozed by US and western countries.
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Another mass grave discoverewd near Raska, containing over 500 bodies of K-Alb. and Mr. Kostunica talks about keeping Kosovo/a.
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On one side we have US and all Western powers and on the other Russia. Russia argument for opposing Ahtisaari is that "it is bad for Europe"!!! You make your calculations! But this is not the point at all. Why do you want Kosovo anyway? No SErb (or albanian for that matter) wants to live in kosovo. Albanians live because they have to, not because some holy-land BS. I've been to kosovo and no sane person would live there unless it's where he or she is born. Even if you "win" kosovo, no serb will every live there. I bet that more SErbs will stay in Kosovo if it becomes independet than if it stays in Serbia. With independence, some foreigners will be there and Serbia will help. If it stays in Serbia, there will be always be tensions and all normal people will flee... and serbs will have more opportunities to do so. Enough with BS Kosovo is ours. Kosovo belongs to people who are condemned to live there.
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Anton - what do you believe will happen if the UN does not approve independence and Kosovo is not backed by the US to announce unilateral independence?
I genuinely want to know, because no-one on this site even allows for that possibility.
Nobody is going to take up arms in that situation. I see that they are holding Kurti and probably others who they suspect may stir up violence if there is no independence.
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If the report is true, then it is obvious the US has decided to play a game of chicken with the Russians. A game in which neither side can give way without a severe loss of prestige. So the stage is finally set for the following sequence:
1. US submits resolution to spite Moscow
2. Russia and China veto it
3. Angry K-Albanians declare independence unilaterally
4. Belgrade declares 1244 still valid
4. K-Serbs declare the north as Serbian territory as per 1244 --> de fact partition
5. Population transfers as K-Serbs flee north of Ibar and Presovo Albanians flee south.
6. Enough time passes (can be years or decades) for tempers to cool down and the world to forget Kosovo
7. De facto partition become de jour.
8. Maybe the next generation will decide to kiss and make up since they do not have blood on their hands???
pre 16 godina
It looks like the arrogant Americans are daring the Russians to use their veto. I want to see the look on Condie's face when the Russians (and possibly the Chinese) say Nyet!
pre 16 godina
Well, Kosovo is already "de facto" independent and it doesn't matter if any UN resolution should or not be voted.
Anti Kosovo independence people could only hope in a future UN resolution which could impose by force a Belgrade ruling in Kosovo, given the fact that in the region there is no presence of Serbian instituitons.
Obviously, nowadays there are no rooms for such a scenario.
pre 16 godina
To: Anton
I would like to hear your smug comments this time next week when Kosovo is still a Serbian Provence. I bet you will remain silent or come back here and say by July Kosovo is independent.
pre 16 godina
The only thing damaging in the treatment of this independance dossier, is the attitude of Kostunica waiting on Putin to decide for Serbia what is good for the Albanians.
This is a tragic-comody! Putin trying to show the world that Russia is still a major power that can interact with the USA.
What a farce, indeed!
pre 16 godina
I would like to hear your smug comments this time next week when Kosovo is still a Serbian Provence. I bet you will remain silent or come back here and say by July Kosovo is independent.»
Canadian, what is Canada's position on this dossier?
Most Canadians fully support the independance of Kosovo, because these people have suffered enough under the serbian regime of Milosevic.
If you are a Canadian, and I doubt you are, you will think differently!
pre 16 godina
Yes Dragane I also want to see the look on condie's face when she hears the veto.
pre 16 godina
Kate,
You somehow seem to believe that the US is afraid to unilaterally recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Why is that?
It seems to me that you and other Serb supports here believe that the US is not as committed to the Albanians as the Russians are committed to the Serbs. While in fact it is the Americans that have been crystal clear about Kosovo, they said and they are still saying that “they support the Ahtisari plan (independence)” While it was and it is the Russians who are playing a game by not declaring their intentions.
While everybody knows the US backs independence, most people are unsure as to whether the Russians are willing to sacrifice their prestige and become the only country in the world against independence, and the Russians have only fueled these suspicions by not clearly threatening to veto.
The only reason people are taking the Russians seriously is not because they are a rising superpower, but because the US and the West in general know how little respect the Russians have for human life (read Russian and Soviet history and the millions of their own people that they killed for no reason whatsoever). Combine that lack of respect for human life with the thousands of nuclear bombs the Russians posses and you will understand why the West is taking Russia seriously.
Russia will never become a superpower by blackmailing the world with annihilation.
China on the other hand is on its way to becoming a superpower. They have realized that in the 21st century you can not become a superpower through blackmail and threat of nuclear annihilation but through ECONOMIC MIGHT.
pre 16 godina
Here in the US our media is ratcheting up tensions with Russia big time! This is definitely building up to something. We (US) cannot live without a boogeyman or two or twenty, so Russia/Serbia fit quite nicely. It is sad to see a once benevolent, great freedom loving country fall so far from grace. The US will make a fool out of itself over the Kosovo issue and soon it will have to withdraw from Iraq & Afghanistan with our tail between their legs. The Soviet Union fell shortly after they left Afghanistan and sadly Americans can't learn from their mistakes or others. So be it, let them vote, or should I say let them (Russia/China) VETO!
pre 16 godina
Nick,
you suggested to Kate;
"You somehow seem to believe that the US is afraid to unilaterally recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Why is that?"
- the answer is simple it is not a case of afraid but is question of whether the US is dumb enough to ignore the UN and the resolution that they themselves formulated and signed ??? Do you not understand that a bluff needs to be credible and this is not credible that said it can be stupid but it still does not make it credible!!!
If the answer turns out to be Yes the US are dumb enough then expect the US to lose the last ounce of international credibility just when they need all the help they can get given the quagmire of Iraq, Afghanistan, and on issues with Missile defence in Europe, Iran, N,Korea, Darfur etc etc.... Equally but more importantly with the 'sui generis' that they clung onto thrown out by such inept actions they open the 'pandora box' for Russia to do the same and treat it's interest in the near abroad that it would want recognised too - US losing face in Georgia and other places that are more important then Serbia's province of Kosovo & Metohija! What is more important to the US seeing as Russia is in a win-win with the best scenario being from their perpective a hasty move by the US ensuring the Veto & forcing the dumb move by the US!!!
If the answer is No they are not dumb enough (which they have told Ceku - only he is keeping very quiet since end of May) then I look forward to your response in the next few days when this folly is finally laid to rest.
It is important that all the People of Serbia can progress and economic development that is much required in the province is allowed to florish. However, with the scenario that you are aspiring for in the US being dumb enough to Illegally recognise an Illegal entity don't expect much for the future beyond what has proceeded for Northern Cyprus!!!
I have always said that win-win is in the best interest of ALL the People of Serbia - anything less is lose-lose. Surely it is better for the future of the next generation that all the people of Serbia progress forward with a new found trust and reconciliation which can drive the economy of the Serbian province and Serbia as a whole rather then give that all up for empty promises that are not someones to give?
The choice is for the making at least one thing is certain this Friday will be D-Day i.e. Decision Day.
No Vote = No Independence
Vote+Veto = No Independence
I am positive that The US is not so Dumb and look forward to Saturday when there will be No Independence, No ILLEGAL Unilateral declaration, No Illegal recognition and No Violence and everyone will realise that alternatives must be found that satisfy all the peoples for a better future for ALL!
pre 16 godina
Princip,
And you believe that the Russian threat of veto is credible?
Even though the Russians have NOT YET explicitly threatened to veto.
pre 16 godina
People and nations find all sorts of ways to steal property This is theft like everything else. Great Britain was only great because they stole from the rest of the world at every turn. America is doing the same thing in Iraq now, and not so long ago in Central and South America. It does not take long for smaller nations to learn from the big ones that they can steal as well. Albania for example wants to steal parts of Serbia, Macedonia and Greece. It is simply a disease that small nations catch from the big ones. Small nations immunize their theft by using the big brother as a patron, Albania using America for example. The big nations spread this disease to small ones and small nations realize that this theft cam be legalized because their patron makes the rules. You see the nation that has the nukes makes the rules and have control of the earth. Is it wonder that Iran wants the nukes as well? The law is what the big nations make it since they are law unto themselves. They do not make the laws to protect small nations; their international courts are not instruments of justice but courts to legitimize theft. When Serbs and others are sent to The Hague it will make little difference whether they are guilty or innocent; but it’s better if you have a patron with nukes when this happens. To have a patron with nukes you have to have something that the patron wants, strategic location, resources or a strong wealthy lobby in your patron’s homeland who geese’s the political wheels of those “thieves” who run the patron’s government. . You cannot have a patron unless you have some influence. First and last it’s a question of influence. Those countries who own the earth, who have weapons make the laws to protect what they have and to get more of what they don’t have or what they will need. These men and women do this in the name of the nation but really they are doing it in the name of corporate interests and propertied classes. . They put up all sorts of fence, put up all sorts of firewalls, write all sorts of lies or they write laws to get around Tribunals themselves that they create for others or they fix the law so the small nation is isolated and induced to comply with the theft of their national territory by promises of membership in this or that organization that the thieves control. In the end these promises are violated with impunity. Look at all the treaties that the Yugoslav government signed over the years, everyone has been violated. The small nation that feed like piglets on the “teats” of their patrons, mark my words, will be the next bacon of the patron. The world my Balkan friends is really organized for the protection of the nations who rule the world. The United Nations was never organized as a force to do justice it was organized to exploit small nations in the name of the elite classes that dominate the social structure within. Be you Serb or Albanian there is no system called justice and the only way you will get justice is to work together and get rid of big nations who exploit you and use you for their own national interest.
pre 16 godina
Zoran it is strange to me that you “live in USA” and talk bad about the US it is shame that you “spill the beans” for someone else. A recommendation to you goes to Russia because you belong there not in mighty USA
How you people ask Albanians to stay in Serbia (a new grave site opens today) What is that some 500 chicken were butchered and thrown away in a mass grave or were they human beings with history emotions family loves one like me and you and everyone else. This is the savage side of the human race. It is ease to say I’m right but is inhumane when the facts point to another direction and you still keep a straight face saying I’m right because I say so
After so much consideration, I concluded that I need to personally apologize to the families of those Albanians still missing or are in this recent grave.
We Serbians are not all the same but those bad individuals that have done those horrible things are the scum of the Serbian people and had made us look very bad in the eyes of the world.
On the other hand, for most of my co-patriots Albanians are not a factor in their discussions I think some people here ADD attention deficit disorder. Princip for example mention people of Serbia but Albanians are not mention in his discussion what a shame.
If you mister Princip get paid for this go where the professionals are and leave us amateurs alone
pre 16 godina
I think it's about time we all face up the the fact that independence is inevitable, and that Serbs and Albanians alike should be the first to congratulate the newest state pending approval by it's legislature and an official proclamation of independence. Let us together be the first to bypass the United Nations and unilaterally salute this newest State, spawned from a state that is, " too big, too corrupt, and no longer services the needs of it's citizens." Some say Kosovo....NOT....I salute the Breakaway Republic of.......VERMONT! In addition, I second a UN resolution for immediate recognition of the Independent Republic of Vermont with full diplomatic status, and the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of the nationalist occupying forces of the United States and it's paramilitary loyalists who have crossed the borders terrorizing a helpless and frightened people, who's only desire is to live in peace, unshackled from this tyrannical neighbor and oppressor. Supplies are urgently needed along with volunteers....
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/04/national/main2881111.shtml
pre 16 godina
«We Serbians are not all the same but those bad individuals that have done those horrible things are the scum of the Serbian people and had made us look very bad in the eyes of the world.»
Svetlana, it's the first time I read something as powerful, coming from a Serb. Most of the Serbs on this forum point at the Croats, who are responsible, the Muslim Bosnians who are responsible, the Albanians who are responsible; the USA, NATO, the EU, and minimize the atrocities and the numbers...
I congratulate you for your courage, because many Serbs from this forum, living confortably in the USA or UK, will call you anti-Serb and will insult you because you do not think like them, and you don't write what they expect of you.
Thank God that there are intelligent Serbs like you who make a difference.
pre 16 godina
Serbia must show its disapproval of American and British actions in Kosovo.
In September 2006 the Serbian government signed a status-of-forces agreement with America which allows American troops and warplanes to cross Serbia at will.
This agreement should be terminated immediately. America was Serbia’s enemy in 1999 and nothing has changed since.
Serbia should throw out the British Ambassador and down grade the embassy to a mere consulate.
pre 16 godina
Svetlana, you surprised me.
I lost my brother and still cannot find at least his bones.
You are the only serb I could read to apologise.
Your apology is really accepted.
Anytime I see serbs I relate them to "murders".
Svetlana thanks for helping me to change my view.
One more thing serbs did kill Albanian christians too, my brother is one of them.
pre 16 godina
Svetlana... maybe you should watch something else other then CNN, CBC, BBC... the worlds biggest propaganda stations. And focus on say GREECE, CHINA, SERBIA, RUSSIA and anyone else who is currently releasing UNBIASED news on this topic. Serbs are the victims here. But I would so love to see Russian nukes stationed in Serbia and then see who will support the Albanian terrorists. You are as much a Serb as is Clinton. I very much so doubt that you are though.
pre 16 godina
Svetlana!
Let's wait and see if there really is a mass grave first. They will start digging tomorrow as I understood to see if there actually are people burried there. Before that there is only speculation of a mass grave.
But where are the remains of more than 2 000 serb civilians missing from the Kosovo conflict I wonder!?!
Where are the apologies from the albanians?
Are serb lives less important than albanian lives?
Who started the killing? KLA or serb police?
pre 16 godina
to "nothing less than freedom":
there died poeple on all sides. that does not justify k-albanian dreams of an annexation of serbian territory. so, please stop whining, it really doesn´t help the matter.
and to Nick:
what for heavens sake do the Russians have to say at all, to convince you about their unwillingness to approve a resolution that is dead on arrival?
I mean, come on, be realistic! it´s a done deal, after all what we could read in the last weeks.
and now it seems as if the US just want to have a veto in order to blame Russia for everything, not only their resistance against the missile-shield...
pre 16 godina
Mr Kostunica,
Pleas,do you know who did that mass grave in Serbia teritory with albanians body. the ANSWER is: THE SERBIAN STATE DID IT. Does it make sens for albanian in Kosovo to be anymore Serbian citizen? The answer is a absolutly big NOOOO.
pre 16 godina
Svetlana, you live in a dream world where the US is still "mighty" and where Serbs should "apologize" for defending their own country against a US/German backed Albanian (KLA was launching attacks from Albania) insurgents. I was born here US), and I will not accept the EVIL that this country imposes on weaker nations including Iraq & Afghanistan. You have what I refer to as a 1950's mentality, when the US was truly "mighty" in every way. This is 2007 and the US is only #1 when it comes to debt 600,000 per household on average and #1 in defence spending. America is living on borrowed time and China's, Japan's, etc money. Thank you for your suggestion, however my comments about the US are not done in hate but a sincere desire to speak the truth so that the wrongs here can be made right, as I'm sure your comments are not intended to be anti-Serb or anti-yourself.
pre 16 godina
«You are as much a Serb as is Clinton. I very much so doubt that you are though.»
So, according to you, a Serb is the one who lives in constant denial of what happened; of what has been done in Serbia's name by an handful of criminals who have tarnished for many generations the image of all Serbs across the world!
pre 16 godina
Here's what a Western expert says about the Russian stance
""Russia has no leverage over the Balkan states and knows it. There's no way that Russia could stop the Ahtisaari plan if the West stands united in favor of it. Its veto power in the Security Council is symbolic. After all the US invaded Iraq without a UN mandate," said Alexander Rahr, program director for Russia at the German Council on Foreign Relations."
-----------------------------
pre 16 godina
Generalizing is always and however wrong,but indeed what serbs did in the past decade din't helped me in the formation of my opinion about them,and it is a quite bad one.And from what i see here in this forum,serbs that really feel the sense of guilt for what their own people did,exists!
I appreciate this and i think that it is a good starting point for the future,and i hope that the word "peace" will be the lightmotive in the relations between the two states,Kosova and Serbia.
pre 16 godina
Walter, what you say about the big nations is right and I don't think anyone in this forum is about to think that there is space for justice in there agendas. Obviously, this fits to all big nations not only to one. What you don't seem to know and I hope because of the lack of information is that first of all Albania is not at all willing to steel (just to use your word) land from their neighbours. Nowhere you can find such a declaration from the state of Albania. Second, you miss the point. Kosova wants independence because it's the will of the people that lives there. Nothing to say against people's will?? What you seem not to know either is that albanians that live in Kosovo, Macedonia, south of Serbia, Montenegro and north of Greece have always lived there. And it has been because of some will of the big nations that albanians have been divided in so many countries. There are 3.2 million albanians in Albania. Albanians that live in their territories outside the state of Albania reach more than 3 millions. No other population in the Balkans has lost as much as the albanians when the big nations decided the borders. In addition, albanians that remained outside the state of Albania where repeatedly treated from the governments of the countries where they found themselves(against their will) as second class citiziens. This was mostly enforced in Kosovo, because more numerous.So, be careful and understand; albanians want only their rights. In Macedonia for example, before the agreement of Oher, even though albanians were about 30 per cents of the population (macedonians say 20 and albanians say 40, let's agree on the avarage)their language was not official and no school in albanian was legal. Now, they have managed it someway and albanian is the second official language in the country and they have their own representation in the public administration. Consequently, noone in Macedonia is willing to join Albania and the two countries are in good relations. Kosovo is a different question and there is no turning back on its way to independence. Once again there is no practical possibility tha Kosovo joins Albania and not because of the international will, but because neither the two countries want it. I strongly believe that in the Balkan is needed cooperation and one of my dreams is to leave in peace and harmony with each other because all these wars have only destroyed us. The people of the Balkans have a lot in common, more than you can imagine, but cooperation and peace comes only when all the populations consider themselves equal to each other. Then comes the real peace. We will know each other and we will be surprised on how the stereotypes have left us such distant. Sadly, for the moment this is possible to understand only when you're away from the Balkans and you have the chance to know the other people from the Balkans (this is what has happened to me).
Svetlana, I'm glad you intervened, not because I thought that no serb was able to accept what has happened. I knew there were, but this forum is such full of division and it seemed that there was no space for dialogue. Let us try to build another place based on good neighborhood. It will be better for us all. I absolutely think we are able to do it.
pre 16 godina
Anton - what do you believe will happen if the UN does not approve independence and Kosovo is not backed by the US to announce unilateral independence?
I genuinely want to know, because no-one on this site even allows for that possibility.
"Nobody is going to take up arms in that situation. I see that they are holding Kurti and probably others who they suspect may stir up violence if there is no independence."
What about you Kate, what do you think it will happen in this case? Will the serbs round up their tanks and bomb the hell of Kosovo again?
pre 16 godina
«We Serbians are not all the same but those bad individuals that have done those horrible things are the scum of the Serbian people and had made us look very bad in the eyes of the world.»
All nations have the destructive potential, even Albanians. However, people have to judge and be judged according to the evidence. Serbs (police, military, and paramilitary forces) have commited a magnitude of crimes against humanity. The world will not forget that they are accountable for over 15 thousand masacred and killed. THOSE ARE VICTIMS OF SERB FORCES. It is for the Serbs as a nation to denounce them. It is for serbs as a nation to sort their own garbage and disgrace. The sooner they will do this the sooner they will bring their nation any kind of dignity. Otehrwise they will live under the dark shadow of their crimes as a nation state.
When I read the forum, I get discouraged because I see that majority of serbs (ADD or not) are still resisting their crimes and opose the DIVORCE with the nation that they harmed to a great level.
What is ironic is that, serbia would loose a lot more than just Kosova if they don't change their anti Albanian politics. The irony gets even bigger when facing the facts that majority of serbs are still nationalists and adhere to their unrealistic dreams.
I hope that there will be a serb born who will actually lead the troubled nation from the darkness to the light and have it one more time join the nation states who consider humanity and human life more than their ill myths.
pre 16 godina
To all who support Albanian independence... You should read this article (written by an American) and visit the website (in article) set up by a former ambassador to the Hague. And not in "she said - he said" view the photo gallery and then come back here and dare to comment. All should see this website. Victor (Anti-Serb Croat)you especially!!! And for your information I am 100% Canadien, the only Serbian connection I have is my wife who is Serbian.
pre 16 godina
To all here is the news link I spoke of, it is sure to change minds and hearts of many > http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=28597
pre 16 godina
First of all, Svetlana, please give everyone your real name, the way you cut down Serbs, refer to the 'mighty USA', and praise albanians, you are clearly not a Serb.
On a lighter note, I want to congratulate the Serb tennis players at the French Open! Ana Ivanovic and Jelena Jankovic are in the semi-finals, Nenad Zimonjic is in the semi-finals in both men's doubles and mixed doubles, and Novak Djokovic is playing tomorrow and hopefully he will make it to the semi-finals too. Quite an amazing achievement for such a small country!! You have made all of us very proud. Good luck to all! Ziveli!
pre 16 godina
Kosovo is a done deal.
pre 16 godina
The UN, US, and the EU must know that the only solution for Kosovo and Metohija, province of Serbia is internationally-supervised autonomy and continued dialogue between Belgrade and Pristina.
I don't know what makes a mature bunch of elected, think illogically and with parroted phrases.
International Law tells us, (you and me) respect sovereign territory.
Respect Serbia's sovereign territory. Russia does, and as a result is gaining much respect around the world.
The world media can put whatever spin they wish, it won't sell.
Prime Minister Kostunica is totally supported for his stance in protecting Serbian territory.
pre 16 godina
Svetlana and Victor who praises you do not understand the difference between an innuendo and a euphemism. In fact nether understands the subtle media methods that fabricate numbers, omit information, and outright lie about events in former Yugoslavia. I have had officers of the Canadian armed forces in my home who were my students and they said that many reports about their contact with Serbian forces were fabricated. Word usage is a powerful weapon which was used by the Croats, Muslims and Albanians to demonize the Serbs. These reporters were paid by the state department to lie. Christiana Amanpour was the biggest liar of the lot. Amanpour is the wife of Jamie Ruben Assistant Secretary of State in the Clinton administration who fed the American public one lie after another. For example the New York Times reporter wrote that “Milosevic was “resolute” and “forceful,” and that Richard May, the former Presiding Judge at the trial, was only “sober, polite and tough,” whereas Milosevic was “contemptuous” and “carping.” Anyone who saw the trial and I saw every bit of it Milosevic was never rude, never arrogant, never belligerent, but always polite and patient while judge May was arrogant, rude, and full of himself a typical stuffed shirt without a personality. Svetlana you speak of a mass grave without any idea if there is a mass grave. Any time an issue arise that US wants to push through like the Kosovo question they find mass graves, they tell us million ethnically cleansed, they tell us four hundred thousand raped, they tell us three hundred thousand dead and mostly Muslims. These are simple lies repeated often that people like you Svetlana and Victor swallow hook line and sinker. You Svetlana and Victor from Quebec (that is a joke) need to ask a simple question about propaganda and that question is WHO BENEFITS. Once you answer that question you will be able to tell a lie from the truth. Please don’t get me wrong one killed or raped person is one too many no matter what ethnic group they come from. During WWI Western media wrote that Germans were throwing babies into the air and then bayoneting them and making sausages from corpses. History books today, however, blame all sides equally for WWI. Germany is blamed for starting WWII; however JP Taylor a renowned British historian blames the English with equal amount of ink. Mark Twain, Nikola Tesla’s good friend, said “Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception” Who was attacked here? Yugoslavia and later Serbia. Who benefited? Multinational Corporation and the Western Military industrial Complex including NATO. There are two levels of lies in the West “The first layer says, that you don’t need to report the truth as long as you write something that is plausible and the second strategy is to tell the truth but withhold the other side’s point of view.. Victor and Svetlana it takes two to tango.
pre 16 godina
To Walter
"Albania for example wants to steal parts of Serbia, Macedonia and Greece."
It is not Albania that wants to steal parts of other states. Other states have stolen from Albania during history. Albania is not claiming what belongs to it which is very sad. Read more than your schoolbooks and you will find how Albania was divided during years. This is only time that some of great powers are with albanians and you do make problems. Then why is Russia supporting serbs??!! Serbia has no ground in claiming Kosova. Here you have some ground to explore further. If there are churches, when were they build and by whom? What was there before these churches? Why they build churches in Kosova? Which parts of Balcan were populated by Albanians? When did that changed? How many Albanians are now in Turkey and how they were moved there?
pre 16 godina
«...many reports about their contact with Serbian forces were fabricated.»
Walter, I can assure you that at my age I can see the difference between an innuendo and an euphemism! Can you see the difference between facts and propaganda?
What happened in Omarska, in Brcko, in Keraterm, and in so many 'detention' camps, are these facts or propaganda?
What happened in Vukovar, the assassination of 300 patients from the local hospital, is this a fact or propaganda?
The killing of 200 Muslims on Mount Vlasic by Darko Mrdja, is it propaganda?
The burning of more than 500 women and children in Visegrad by Lukic and his paramilitaries, is this a fact or propaganda?
And the systematic rape campaign across Bosnia, is this a fact or propaganda.
And I could continue this enumeration with countless facts.
You should not listen, Walter, to a few persons whom reports were falsified and made a rule of it. There are always exceptions, I know, and I can make the difference between the general rule and the exception. Can you?
pre 16 godina
Canadian, the fact that you are husband of Serbian woman is enough. Even more, if you have children then they are half-half...
Clarification about something you are merging - to have majority population of muslim religion doesn't mean to be islamic country. Even in oposit case, why all these fear from islamic world?! By the way Albanian nation belongs to Muslim, Catholic and Orthodox religions and since the centuries there were no religious conflicts among them... Don't worry, there have proved their inter-religious tolerance and it is their treasure...
pre 16 godina
»Victor (Anti-Serb Croat)you especially!!! And for your information I am 100% Canadien.»
No Canadians in Canada would make such a mistake! You have certainly emigrated recently to Canada.
Quebec was founded in 1648 and my ancestor arrived in Quebec in 1680, directly from France.
As for your accusation, I am not anti-Serb, or anti-Croat; I am anti war criminals, no matter if their ethnicity!
pre 16 godina
Rovena; Victor: and Albanian forever.
Rovana thank you for pointing out my spelling glitch of the word “steal” in one place even though it was spelled correctly in several previous sentences. I could point out that you confuse “leave” and “live”, “their” and “there” and so on but that is OK since English is a tough language and that is not the issue here. The issue is what you say not how you say it. Mr. Albanian forever here is some food for your thought concerning the Balkans. Eighth Century Slav tribes settle into the territories of present-day Slovenia, Bosnia, Croatia, Montenegro and Serbia, and assimilate the Illyrian populations of these regions. There is no anthropological or linguistic evidence that shows Albanians are Illyrians even though some historians particularly in Albania would like this to be so. In 1081 Albania and Albanians or Shqiperisë are mentioned for the first time in a historical record, by a Byzantine emperor. Ottoman Turks; conquered Skadar and many Albanians fled to southern Italy, Greece, Egypt, and elsewhere while those that remained were forced to convert to Islam. Albanians who converted to Islam, like Serbs who converted, became bureaucrats in the Ottoman Empire. In fact Serbian language became the diplomatic language of the Ottoman Empire. Young boys from the Balkans of all nationalities were abducted to Constantinople and became Janissaries (Read Andrich’s book Bridge on the River Drina” and the following explains some of your question?
!4th Century: Out of the 2,166 farming homesteads and 2,666 houses in cattle-grazing land, 44 were registrated as Albanian (1,8%). Others were registered as Slavic mostly Serbian.
15th Century: The 1445 Turkish cadestral tax census on the territory of Kosovo 12,844 Serbian housing while 46 were Albanian households
If you go to this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo#14th_century you will see how this demographic change eventually favoured the Albanian population.
Rovena what you seem not to understand is violations of international law, injustice, and the harm done by nationalists seeking a “polace in the sun.”. You choose to suport the dominant ideology because it suits your nationalistic bias. This is also true for your cheerleader Victor who omits the resons for the examples that he provides. I am not saying that the reasons justify the outcome but only a rabbid nationalist would omit telling this forum thhat the prior killing of Serbian women and children in Vukovar Pakrac, Gospic, Srebrenica and so on did not cause the retaliation by the paramilitary forces who were at one time citizens of those towns. Victor is a courtroom transelator in Vancouver, I think, and he knows that there are two sides to every story. He chooses to tell one side a method of a true propagandist who only sees intelligent Serbs when they agree with him even to a point where he agrees with Svetlana who has not read beyond “The Three Little Pigs”. Facts Victor can be proven with evidence, and annalysis and your facts are self serving. You forget Victor that natural law presupposes that all humans are created equal and independent, which reveals “no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions.” There are laws to change society. Resorting to violence is not acceptable behavior for mankind unless an individual’s freedom is in danger of being relinquished. The last point here Victor explains that each case you cite as an example of Serbian atrocities were a reaction by them to atrocities by the other side against them and their families. Yugoslavia had a legal system and you know something about law Victor that was open to these people to use and fight the legal injustice. Instead Slovenians, Croats, Muslims and Albanians in Kosovo decided to break that law, however unjust, by killing the young Macedonian soldier in Split, massacring Serbians in Gospic, throwing grenades into Serbian cafes in Kosovo, sexually assaulting and killing women and children around Srebrenica and in Vukovar. Did you really think Victor that the Serbians would march into another Jasenovac where 700 000 met a brutal death just a half century before. You mention Omarska but you neglect to tell the participants that this film was fabricated and used as propaganda to attack the Serbs in Bosnia. It is you Victor that is blinded by the chess board that is unable to see truth from fiction. If you examine the events in former Yugoslavia you must know that every act against the Serbs was preceded by a propaganda campaign, an event was manufactured to justify what followed. Omarsks, breadline massacre, rape camps, Racak all events staged for one purpose NATO justification for their agenda which was to break up Yugoslavia. Victor you use this NATO propaganda and don’t provided any evidence of scholastic nature in your ramblings but accuse me of not reading. It will take you a lifetime to read and understand what I have read. Read General Nambiar’s reports, General Rose’s reports, General McKenzie’s reports, or Rollie Keith’s reports, all soldiers on the front line in Bosnia. No Victor, you rather read Christiana Amanpour the state department propagandist and use her reports as evidence. Victor writes “I know, and I can make the difference between the general rule and the exception. Can you” Yes Victor your general rule is Serbs are guilty of killing Christ, starting WWI, WWII, dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. while Slovenians, Croats Muslims and Albanians who started this mess in the Balkans are an exception. When you have some evidence come back on the forum.
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«...each case you cite as an example of Serbian atrocities were a reaction by them to atrocities by the other side against them and their families.»
Can you explain why Darko Mrdja took off buses 200 Muslims on Mount Slavic, in August 1992, and gunned them down?
Can you explain why 300 patients were taken from the hospital in Vukavar in Nov. 1991, brought to the Ovcara farm, and gunned sown?
You say that Omarska is an hoax. Can you explain why 100s of Muslims have been killed there during 3 months?
Walter, tell me what the Muslims have done to deserve to be killed by the 100s from 1992 to 1995? Did you know that during the summer of 1992, from June to September, more than 50 000 Muslims have been killed in 43 municipalities in Bosnia?
I am waiting for the answers.
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Walter,
First of all I was not correcting your english at all, I hadn't even noticed since you didn't say it(typical balkan susceptibility). The point was that steal was an offensive term!Regarding to the number and dates you gave to me and to my "cheerleader" Victor (obviously I know him as much as I know you, but you want to divide people in two sectors), everything is disputed. I give you a recent example (if you catch the point); the surveys of the World Bank say that in Bosnia only 7 percent of the population is living by agricultural, because these were the data they could have. Facts show that more than 60 percent of bosnians live by agriculture. After some decades,when I will be searching data for the year 2006 this is the number I will have, but it doesn't correspond to the reality. So, I would really be careful to confide on numbers that come from 1400. Especially if we are talking about albanians that have always lived on their own (this is a fact, not a vaunt) for many reasons, principally to my opinion beacause of language. I'm not about to link you here the page of wikipedia that talks about the roots of albanian language, but you can find it by yourself. Note that this page doesn't have the note "The factual accuracy of this article or section is disputed" that is present in the link about demographic history of Kosovo that you sent to me (as I told you, credible sources are really difficuilt to find..)What you really don't know is that there were not the albanians that proved the common roots of albanian language with the illyrian one, but german and austrian scholars. Maybe it would be better for you to keep the food for the thoughts that you were offering around, cause I believe you need it more. For example to understand that being mentioned for the first time (and we must be careful what it means in this aspect for the first time; what we have in possess yet,what has survived the hard times, wich doesn't really mean for the first time absolutely)in the middle age in the books of the Byzantine doesn't confirm that there was no existance before. You know, people used to exist even before the invention of the paper, what do you think? How can you explain such a unique language (if you find the famous tree of the indoeuropean language, you will see albanian as a seperate branch and the oldest one - look: not albanian made!)with this appearance after the 11th century? So, my friend try to meditate instead of hanging on doubtful numbers and evidence. Maybe it will give you more answers. Regarding to Ivo Andric, you know, it is obviuos that you are such bad-informed. This "excellent" man in 1939, during his years at serbian ministry of foreign affairs, wrote a document called "draft on albania" that finishes like this: "Taking possession of Shkodra could, in this case, be of great moral and economic significance. It would enable us to carry out major waterworks activities and to recuperate fertile land needed to feed Montenegro. The presence of northern Albania within the framework of Yugoslavia would facilitate the existence of new communications links between northern and southern Serbia and the Adriatic.
After the partition of Albania, Kosovo would lose its attraction as a centre for the Albanian minority which, under the new situation, could be more easily assimilated. We would eventually gain 200,000 to 300,000 Albanians, but these are mostly Catholics whose relations with the Moslem Albanians have never been good. The deportation of Moslem Albanians to Turkey could then be carried out since, under the new circumstances, there would be no major impediment to such a move" Do you really think any sane person would believe on what he says about the balkans and its history??? So tell me Walter, who's the nationalist among us? One last thing, the will of the people is the biggest force ever known and the end it will win. International law is not the speech of god, but just a misarable attempt of your "dear" big nations to rule the world regarding their own interests.
Good day to you all!
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OK Victor it does not surprise me that you chose these examples but you could have provided just as many from the other side to give a balance swince you claim neutrality. First Victor “this occurred in a region where memories of extremely bloody civil war during World War II were still very much alive.” I remember visitintg a region in Herzegovina in 1974 [Plana} with my Canadian wife. We stopped at a roadside inn and after introducing my wife as a daughter of a man from Ljubuski who immigrated to Canada in 1927 the lady got uop from the table and walked away. Why? Long memory? Outside her Inn is a karst pit {jama} into which Croats and mostly Muslims threw some 100 men from the local region killing them all. As I said in my previous posts the wars after “1992 was a resumption of the vicious cycle of massacres and vengeance” that devastated Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia and Kosovo in 1941-44, when the Nazi [ Muslim, Croat and Albanian} proceeded to eliminate Serbs.
Croats and Muslims also “herded their adversaries into "horrible" camps at the start of the civil war, on the way to expulsion.” Bosnian Serbs did not have a patron to protect them like the Bosnian Muslims who “enjoyed the services of high-powered U.S. public relations experts in the Washington-based Ruder Finn agency who knew how to "spin" the Bosnian conflict in order to equate the Serbs with the Nazis-the quickest and easiest way to win public opinion over to the Muslim” and Croat side. “The news media and political figures were showered with press releases and other materials exaggerating Serb atrocities, whereas Muslim atrocities (such as the decapitations of Serb prisoners, fully documented) remained confidential. To the public, this was a one-sided conflict between a Serbian "fascist aggressor" and innocent victims, all unarmed civilians.”
At the French General Morillon testified {this is public record] at the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague, stressing “that the Muslim commander in Srebrenica, Naser Oric, "engaged in attacks during Orthodox holidays and destroyed villages, massacring all the inhabitants.” Marillion knew Oric personally and he further testified saying "Naser Oric was a warlord who reigned by terror in his area and over the population itself. I think that he realized that these were the rules of this horrific war, that he could not allow himself to take prisoners. According to my recollection, he didn't even look for an excuse. It was simply a statement: One can't be bothered with prisoners." Morillion further testified that “the Serbs took me to a village to show me the evacuation of the bodies of the inhabitants that had been thrown into a hole, a village close to Bratunac. Any intelligent person who is not in denial will understand that retribution is part of life in the Balkans and almost anywhere else in the world particularly when a man finds his home razed to the grtound and his family slaughtered. Marillion understood that and he testified that he “feared that the Serbs, the local Serbs, the Serbs of Bratunac, these militiamen, they wanted to take their revenge for everything that they attributed to Naser Oric. It wasn't just Naser Oric that they wanted to revenge, take their revenge on, they wanted to revenge their dead on Orthodox Christmas."
It is clear to me if not to you Victor that Srebrenica and its environs and Vukovar were the same process of revenge “against those who killed Serbian civilians” Read the testimony of Serbian civilians from Vukovar and Srebrenica It is clear enough that the soldiers in the hospital and the ones that fled Srebrenica “feared exactly what everyone aware of the situation dreaded: that Serb soldiers would take vengeance on the men they considered guilty of murdering Serb civilians and prisoners.”
Victor why do you omit Gospic where Tesla’s home was burned to the ground and dozens of Serbian men killed before the war started in Croatia. You ignore Croats holding Muslim Prisoners in Oil storage tanks in Mostar where heat reacher over 45 degrees Celsius and Muslim Camps in railway tunnels . You also ignore what Marvine Howe in the New York Times (July 12, 1981), quoting an Albanian official in Kosovo states about ethnic cleansing. She writes that as 1981, “ethnic cleansing in relation to the policies of the Kosovo Albanian administration creating an "ethnically clean" territory (i.e. "cleanly" Albanian) in the province. This was used extensively by the Croats in Krajina and Serbs in their region and to a lesser extent by the Muslims.
Victor lets take a look at the Muslim leadership and their aims. From the U.N. Secretary General's 1999 Report on Srebrenica, it emerges that the idea of a "Srebrenica massacre" was already in the air at a September 1993 meeting in Sarajevo between Bosnian Muslim president Alija Izetbegovic and members of his Muslim party from Srebrenica.” Isebegovich, his own party members testified, wanted some 5000 Muslims killed in Srebrenica to get the Americans on side and to portray the Muslims as victims. His people were horrified at this
“Izetbegovic later denied this, but he is outnumbered by witnesses. It is clear that Izetbegovic's constant strategy was to portray his Muslim side in the bloody civil war as pure helpless victims, in order to bring U.S. military power in on his side.” Again the examples of this include other staged events i.e. the breadline massacre even though they were mostly Serbs, rape camps, concentration camps like the ones you mention Victor where the emaciated TB infected Muslim man was filmed. Srebrenica on the other hand “falsely identifying Milosevic with the Bosnian Serb leadership and by exploiting the notion that Srebrenica killings were part of a vast Serb plan of "genocide" carried out against non-Serbs for purely racist reasons, Madeleine Albright was able to advocate the NATO war against Yugoslavia as necessary to prevent "another Srebrenica" in Kosovo, where the situation was altogether different.”
Evidence indicates that “U.S. used "Srebrenica" for two clear purposes:
1. to draw attention away from the U.S.-backed Croatian offensive which drove the Serb population out of the Krajina which, as much as Srebrenica, was supposed to be protected by the United Nations;
2. to implicate Bosnian Serb leaders in "genocide" in order to disqualify them from negotiating the future of Bosnia-Herzegovina. (The U.S. preferred to replace them at Dayton by Milosevic, whose eagerness to end the war could be exploited to get concessions the Bosnian Serbs might refuse”
“On his death bed, Isetbegovich “readily admitted as much to his ardent admirer Bernard Kouchner, in the presence of U.S. diplomat Richard Holbrooke. Kouchner reminded Izetbegovic of a conversation he had had with French President Mitterrand in which he "spoke of the existence of 'extermination camps' in Bosnia. You repeated that in front of the journalists. That provoked considerable emotion throughout the world. [...] They were horrible places, but people were not systematically exterminated. Did you know that?” this was isetbegovich’s reply “Yes. I thought that my revelations could precipitate bombings. I saw the reaction of the French and the others-I was mistaken. [...] Yes, I tried, but the assertion was false. There were no extermination camps whatever the horror of those places. (2)”
It is interesting to note that both real [perpetrators of the Yugoslav tragedy Tudjman and Isetbegovich conveniently died before they could face the tribunal. What do you think Victor, coincidence or get rid of them because their bags are full of skeletons?
Victor I am not justifying any of this. If we don’t expose lies like yours and insist that one side did this or that and ignore the other it “simply prepare the next wave, which is what has already happened in the Balkans, and more than once. The dead victims cannot profit from such memories.” Nor can the living. Read my post on the G8 article it will give you a better idea where I stand and it is certainly not with you.
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Yes Rovana I know all about when paper was invented and I also know that history is written by people who bring in their own biases and their own interpretation and their own prejudices. However I also know that when the majority of historians agree on a point it is more likely true than when one person is alone. On the other hand, when one person questions the rest that sometimes is much better than agreement since the question leads to new investigations and new answers. Of course we need to look at when one group or another was referred to in documents for the first time. Documents are primary sources, the best kind of historical evidence, which historians use to interpret their significance in light of other sources. It is not possible to discuss something that we have no reference to because it just becomes a moot point. In my answer to you concerning how the Albanians and Serbs, for that matter, went to Turkey I used his book “Bridge on the River Drina” to explain a point about the Janissaries and you belittle his work that won the Nobel prize in literature by his 1937 stand on Skadar. If you don’t believe the origin of the Janissaries you have some problems and a lots of history to catch up on. The Ottomans rule in the Christian lands was harsh and based on the following policy: blood tax –children to serve as Janissaries or eunuch, tax -- money or goods, convert to Islam and if you refuse they cut your head off or impaled you on a “trklja” and placed you at a crossing or approach to a town so that you will be an example to all who refuse to obey. Majority of Albanians and many Serbs and some Croats converted others, fled like many Albanians and Serbs, after the Battle of Kosovo for example, others were impaled. What most people seem not to know is that Albanians and Hungarians fought with the Serbs against the Ottomans at the Battle of Kosovo. Back to Andric Europe was awash in chauvinism and nationalism at that time so that should not detract from his great literary skill. You have a good day as well.
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Walter,
I think your writing is very powerful and simply put, excellent. However, I do think that the number of 700,000 slaughtered at Jasenovac alone is unsubstantiated and probably should not be cited as fact. A lot of my wife's family are buried there, but the total has not truly been determined. I do personally believe the total number of Serbs killed in WWII by the Ustashe is probably in reality close to 1,000,000 (According to Konnilyn Feig, a world renown expert on such things) however, I generally use the commonly accepted figure of 300,000 - 400,000.
"during the summer of 1992, from June to September, more than 50 000 Muslims have been killed in 43 municipalities in Bosnia?(Victor, Thursday, 7 June, 2007, 13:54)"
Victor, this is exactly the type of factual make-believe that Walter is talking about. Even if you insist on using Tokaca's numbers and not ICTY (which is where you claim to get your numbers) the total number of Bosniaks killed (Both Military and Civilian) is only 63,994 for the ENTIRE war. You're claiming that the vast majority of these deaths occurred in the summer of 92? What was happening the rest of the war?
The reality is Victor, according to the ICTY itself, Serbs represent 30% of the causalities in Bosnia and 34% of the population. I can not possibly see how it is as one sided as you claim.
"Note that this page doesn't have the note "The factual accuracy of this article or section is disputed"(Rovena, Thursday, 7 June, 2007, 16:51)"
Rovena, this Wiki page doesn't have that note either, but it claims "Kosovo, the Serbian part of former Yugoslavia, where a massive ethnic cleansing campaign took place in the late 1990s, when millions were forced out their homes and over 100,000 were murdered". However that doesn't make it true, claiming 100,000 were murdered is a little crazy, wouldn't you agree? Wiki is a great starting place and if its well written it lists a proper source that you can then go to and cite. However, citing Wiki as a source itself is rather silly in my opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora
However, if you want to debate the merits of Wiki's section on the Albanian language, I'll quote this:
"Indeed, the very word for Greek, gërk, was borrowed from South Slavic; cf. Bulg. grŭk, Serb-Croat gr"k."
If this is true, to me it would most certainly indicate that the Albanians originate from an area that was NOT adjacent to Greece, and the first time they heard of Greeks was from Slavs. Therefore the only logical conclusion is that Albanians moved to their current area AFTER Slavs moved to the region. I'm guessing, if this is true, they are from Europe, just not the area they are in currently. I just don't see how its possible if they are in fact using a Slav word for Greek.
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To: Walter
Its great to see an apparent educated and sensible voice here. Well said with your remarks.
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Victor claims to be from Quebec Canada in an earlier post he made. That's a joke. If I were to quiz him with 10 questions about Quebec he would surely fail to answer any of them. As for the other person here who thinks I immigrated to Canada recently, you are wrong, I was born here. My grammar and use of English is proof of that, I may from time to time make a minor error in my text since I type very quickly, but mostly its evident that English is not my second language, unlike many others here.
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« If we don’t expose lies like yours and insist that one side did this or that and ignore the other ...»
I do not expose lies: Omarska is true, Vukovar is true, Mount Vlasic is true, Srebrenica is true... The major crimes and atrocities were perpetrated by the Serbs (soldiers, policemen, paramilitaries, milias) and the others (Croats and Muslim Bosniaks) have also committed their share but not to the same measure.
What you want to do is a balance equation, and this is a lie! Serb crimes = Muslim crimes. This is a lie. You know this. Find me one example where the Muslims have massacred 200, 300, 500, in one day.
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"Find me one example where the Muslims have massacred 200, 300, 500, in one day.
(Victor, Friday, 8 June, 2007, 03:36)"
Victor you're claiming an average of about 500 every single day at the beginning of the war for 4 months followed by an average of about 11 people killed per day for the rest of the war.
Anyone can easily see through your distortions of the numbers Victor. How does it go from 500 a day to only 11 Victor?
Victor, the reality is 30% of the causalities were Serbs according to the ICTY. Serbs make up 34% of the population. Please explain how this FACT fits into your world view. It can't, because your world view is completely in contradiction to established reality.
STOP POSTING LIES!!!!!!
Canadien, Victor really is a French Canadian. I find it silly to accuse people like that. PB actually accused me of being an Albanian, ha ha ha ha ha...
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Victor tells us that he does not lie but Victor does not tell the truth either, People lie many different ways just like you victor. They lie by omission, they lie by emphasizing one thing and de-emphasizing something else, they lie by writing reams of material on their argument but two sentences on its rebuttal, they lie by using innuendo and euphemisms, they lie by using pleasant words about things they agree with and unpleasant words with what they oppose, they lie by using statistics without evidence, do I need to go on. You have done all these things Victor in your posts. You are so predictable since you lie by not telling the whole story.
Let’s take a look at this one more time. Vukovar, Krajina and Srebrenica are similar in the cause and effect. I have never claimed that people did not die here or that only Muslims and Croats died as you say. The question is why they died? Here is why they died Victor. There were many Orich’s in the Vukovar hospital that killed Serbian men women and children and the surrounding areas in the same way as Orich did in and around Srebrenica. There are many Orich’s in government in Zagred and Pristina that started this mess.
Bill Schiller in the Toronto Star of 16 July 1995, wrote of Oric::
“On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his living room watching a shocking video version of what might have been called Nasir Oric’s Greatest Hits. There were burning houses, dead bodies, severed heads, and people fleeing. Oric grinned throughout admiring his handiwork. ‘We ambushed them,’ he said when a number of dead Serbs appeared on the screen. The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives: ‘We launched those guys to the moon,’ he boasted. When a footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: ‘We killed 114 Serbs there.’ Later there were celebrations, with singers with wobbly voices chanting his praises.”
Note the 114 Victor does that satisfy you? In grade one my teacher a Muslim man said that 1 + 1+ 10 + 88 = 100 and again in grade four my Serbian Math teacher said the same thing so when I came to Canada my grade five teacher also said that these numbers add up to 100. Add up all the bodies in Krajina and Bosnia of dead Serbian men and women and children and you will see how quickly they add up to many hundreds. This is also true of course of Muslim and Croat casualties. Why was this necessary. It was not. Its people like you Victor that see a difference in numbers. For me one killed is one too many I consider all Yugoslavs as my former contrymen and brothers. Even you Victor I consider as a brother but than Able and Cain were brothers as well. I know which one I am. Google Blagoja Blagojevic and you will see why people died.
Hercegovina is full of Karst pits or jamas that were sealed by Tito in order to promote brotherhood and unity. We almost got there Victor but unfortunately the WWII generation who pined for the Yugoslavia created by the Nazis opened those karst pits and Muslims and Croats taunted the Serbs who went there to retreve the remains of their forfathers with “take the dead out so we have more room for you”.
Serbs never wanted this war, You know that and I know that. Tudjman , Kucan, Isetbegovic and Cecu are on record speaking in favour of the war. In a telephone conversation between Karadjic and Milosevic , Milosevich is asking Karadjic to do everything possioble to prevent war in Bosnia and Karadjic replies “I will do everything that I can to stop the people from rising but Iset wants war and it is out of my hands”. This was a telephone conversation recorded by the CIA and played at The Hague.
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Matthew and Canadian thank you for your praise but really the praise should go to others who were on the ground in the region. . Matthew I have seen your figures on Jasenovac but the figure I give comes from Jasenovac by Carl Savich a history professor who writes: “In BespucaÝ povjesne zbiljnosti (The Wasteland of Historical Reality), Franjo Tudjman stated that ''about 60,000 perished in all the camps and prisons.'' According to Tudjman, 30,000 victims died at the Jasenovac camp. In 1952, the Union of Jewish Councils of Yugoslavia, relying on the reports of Jewish survivors, concluded that, in the Jasenovac camp alone, ''500,000-600,000 people were slaughtered, among whom were about 20,000 Jews.'' Menachem Shelah in The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990) gives the following figure:Ý ''Some six hundred thousand people were murdered at Jasenovac, mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and opponents of the Ustasha regime. The number of Jewish victims was between twenty thousand and twenty-five thousand.'' The Ustasha commander at Jasenovac, Frater Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic, during questioning after the war, stated that ''according to reports of Maks Luburic... about a half million Serbs were killed in the NDH during these four years.'' On October 20, 1994, Brussels Archbishop Cardinal Godfried Danneels in an interview to Vatican Radio, stated that ''even today it is impossible to say how many Serbs were assassinated in Croatian concentration camps in World War II, but for certain the number must have been over half a million persons.''
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To: Walter
I was on the ground. I worked for Macleans magazine as a photographer and I have seen first hand the truth just as Canadien Major-General Lewis MacKenzie did. I later met my wife to be in Serbia. She is a Serbian.
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