"No decision on Kosovo from G8"

i dont think the G8 will consume their time in Kosovo issue when there are more urgent issues on economy and trade which is the purpose of the meeting. maybe only small chit chat on kosovo will happen if it will be discussed.

This issue could probably be settled very quickly if al sides decied to partition Kosovo.it's the only "compromise" solution which i think both sides would accept. Serbia won't accept outright independence o all of Kosovo and the Albanians won't accept anything less tha nfull independene so there has to be some compromise on both sides.

serb camp on this site does so much of flip-flopping. One time they say indepndence is dead and at other times they look for partition. Guys , make up your mind what you want because we K-Alb. know exactly what we want and will get it no matter the cost.

The Ahtisari document IS the compromise. If you read it carefully you will come to understand that Kosovo Serbs get more autonomy and protection than any other minority in Europe and they are entitled to financial support from both the Kosovo State Budget and the Serbian State Budget thus making them the richest municipalities in Kosovo and maybe even Serbia.

-----------

First of all i would like to note that i am NOT a supporter of partition. The reasons are many but the main reason is that i believe partition will only worsen the conflict rather than solve it.

To the supporters of partition, consider these points before making hasty and uninformed claims of how partition is a compromise:

1. Most of the Serbian population of Kosovo lived south of Mitrovica (and i think that is still the case)

2. Most of the Serbian property is located in the South.

3. There are scatered serbian villages throughout Kosovo.

4. Almost all of the Serbian Monsteries are located in Southern Kosovo.

ahmet oh yes for sure you will get it - in those magical dreams of yours, that you like to mention all the time.

Ahmet Isufi - you are incorrect. i think you'll find that i always said that i favoured partition.

Nick - most of the current Serb population in kosovo live in northern kosovo now. you keep banging on about the "reality on the ground", so you should recognise the majority of serbs in northern kosovo and partition it accordingly.

PB

what do you think should happen to the southern encalves, churches, monasteries?

Nick - it's unrealistic to have them break away from Kosovo as Kosovo would be on one side and Albania the other. it'll have to go to the Albanian side.

Nick,
What do you think will happen to the mines in the North if Kosovo is partitioned?

PB,

Wasnt it the Serbs that claimed and still claim that Kosovo has deep historical significance for the Serbian nation?

There is nothing historical about the North, all of the Serbian monasteries are in the South.

Does you statement mean that you are willing to sacrifice the Serbian heritage in the south for the coal and other mineral resources in the north?

You're right Nick, and partitioning will probably result in another population exchange, with tremendous loss of property. Plus, parititioning will give absolutely no incentive to Pristina to implement and enforce the Ahtisaari Plan that defends the rights of Serbs. The big issue here is guaranteed security and freedom of movement for the Serb enclaves in the south. While they still make up the majority of Serb communities in Kosovo, they are scattered, isolated, and learless, when compared to the north. Losing whole communities in Gracanica, Strpce, Obilic and Orahovac will undoubtedly create even bigger divisions between an already strained communities.

easy, eaaasy...calm down, folks!

there is no need to divide serbian territory! Kosovo will stay a serbian province, " one way or another" as the desperate pro-indendence writers are always suggesting.

they only can choose between agony or prosperity. since they will rule themselves in an autonomous province.

the one who was boasting about the "serb-camp flip-flopping"... you were obviously wrong. not the first time.

Can someone answer me how do they think that Albanians will ever be able to accept to remain in the same state with Serbia after this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/04/AR2007060400551.html
Thanks,
Kujtim

Nick and Mike - Personally i would let the monasteries go. the mineral wealth is a side issue. What's the pragmatic choice? it's that the vast majority of the serb population live in the north and they don't want to live in an Albanian dominated country, so why should they have to if the albanians don't want to live in a serb dominated country. the albanians ae a minority in the north and under the UN charter they have no right to take the northern part with them. Serbia can rightfully claim the northern part and move it's troops in tomorrow if they wanted to as technically only the "oppressed" albanian lands should be occupied by NATO troops. my guess is that this is what the Serbian government is pressing for with the USA objecting. we'll have to see how the situation pans out in the future.

Nick and MIke - As an aside, if the abanians gain independence from Serbia, then RS should be allowed independence from Bosnia.

DK
FYI even though Trepca mines are located in the north of Mitrovica, they are completly on a Albanian dominated areas. If partition takes place, which I beleive is only wishful thinking for some, the mines still would remain on Albanian part.
Cheers

PB,

I think the Trepca mines will undoubtedly become privatized, opening the entire enterprise up for international bidding. If Slovenes are buying up banks in Kosovo, Trepca could very well become neither Serb or Albanian either.

There will be no partition of the sovereign state of Serbia be that 15%, 10% or 5% - that is not on the table!!!

The key element is that Ahtisaari and the imposed partition of a sovereing UN member has been well and truly shelved

It is June the 4th NO INDEPENDENCE - what has Ceku said since where is he???? Looks like he is hiding and does not want to show his face!!

P.B. and other serb lovers; I thought Kosova was the craddle of little serbia. Now, you are ready to exgange it for northern Mitro. Wow , shmae on you!!!

Beck028 - what difference wold that make. if the north was partitioned and belonged to serbia, the mines would also belong to serbia, or are you suggesting a mini mini state within the serb part of kosovo. wake up and smell the coffee.

hi everybody!!
I have heard and read the serbian plan about this partition thing,according to this plan ( that's how I understood ) #1 the serbian populated lands in northern kosova to be exchanged with albanian populated lands in presheva valley in serbia and #2 the north part of the danube river being anexed to serbia and preshevo valley to be given to kosovo.....Is that right?? I would say if that would be an agrement and resolve once and forever the problems betwen serbian and albanians it wouldn't be bad...instead fightin every now then for these land??? I don't know maybe I didn't get the sense of that plan,can somebody correct me because I'm confused,I mean what the serbs want and would that resolve everything??
thanks,

Beck,

If Kosovo is partitioned at the Ibar river and the mines are located north of the river, it doesn't matter what ethnic group lives there it will remain Serbian!!

Ahmet,

I've always supported partition here.

Nick,

I personally believe I can bring you over to the partition camp if you give me a chance to explain fully. Please feel free to email me at lazslow@hotmail.com

Now my stance.

First and foremost, Serbia needs to come clean with the crimes committed in her name. We need to turn over wanted criminals. We need to apologize and we need a Truth & Reconciliation Commission. And we need to setup some kind of reparation program. All this needs to be done hand in hand with the Partition process and must be included in the discussions.

Trepca should go to the Albanians, they need it as an economic resource more then Serbia needs it. Its absolutely VITAL the Kosovar Albanians have economic stability, otherwise it simply can not work. At the very least, Kosovo should get the taxes from it (its foreign owned, so its gone anyways) for the next 100 years as part of a reparation package. Trepca is clearly a carrot that the Serbian side can offer without it hurting Serbia's interests so much that it endangers the regions future stability.

Presevo is another carrot that Serbia should be willing to offer as it does not truly effect her interests.

Recognizing Kosova as a part of Albania should be something Serbia is willing to consider, if the will of the people in Kosova so choose to do so. Its my understanding that many Kosovars would rather go it alone. I'm Montenegrin and supported our Independence as I think smaller countries are easier to govern and inherently more fair and democratic. However, the option for the Albanians of Kosova to choose their own future should be theirs, not the international community.

Those are 4 fairly substantial carrots that Serbia has to offer without it destroying her future or her past. These are also items that you would not get from the Ahtisaari plan, although I agree Serbia should apologize formally no matter what the outcome.

Now as far as the Serbian side goes, clearly we take the North, with the exception of Trepca.

Now as far as our cultural monuments go, we do need to do some creative thinking. The protection of minorities is important, but keep in mind our heritage and culture is also very important to both Serbs and Montenegrins the world over. Its this issue that has the most potential for future conflicts. Allowing Serbia to feel that we have not "lost" Kosovo yet again, and you take away the prospects for future problems. Serbs are a stubborn people, we'll wait another 600 years to get it back, as silly as that is. I, for one, as moderate as I am, could never accept that as a final solution. I would never support violence to get it back, but I would teach my children to see Kosovo the same way I do. This is something so irrational that Mike probably can't understand.

As I've said before, one possible option is to grant the Serbian Church the same level of Status the Vatican currently enjoys. Since the Vatican's status was negotiated exclusively with Mussolini there is no reason why we can not decide that among ourselves. It might also help to distance the Serbian Church from direct involvement in Serbian politics and allow them to focus more on Serbs as a whole, the world over.

The other options might include population exchanges of minorities living in one another's territory. For example, in exchange for Trepca and a land bridge to that area, the same considerations be given one of our important Church areas.

I would even go so far as to suggest giving areas of Serbia that don't have an Albanian population in exchange for these important cultural areas. Maybe it would be possible to grant some of our fertile land in Vojvodina to Kosova in exchange or something?

For me, I'm so brainwashed by the Serbian "Myth" that I'd actually support trading Belgrade itself for places like Pec!

Nick, the issue is, Ahtisaari's plan is not a compromise. It is in fact one sided, and we both know that. Partition is really a compromise. The Serbs want it all, and we all know that really isn't practical for a number of reasons.

Look, the reality is yes Serbia needs to be punished for her crimes, but not like this. This hurts Serbs and Montenegrins the world over, and plenty of us were strongly opposed to Milosevic's regime.

Nick what is it that you are really opposed to? Is it because its dangerous to partition, or is it because you would like to see Serbs punished as severely as possible? Or what?

Personally, I don't see what other options we have. Russia will veto Ahtisaari's plan, and the US won't let Kosovo stay in Serbia. Unilateral recognition will clearly led to violence and then partition anyways.

We do need to learn to work with one another, no matter what happens we will always be neighbors. Once in the EU, our regional interests will be the same, and to be honest, from reading the forums here, I really don't see any difference in personality between Albanians and Serbs. We're natural allies in the New World Order.

FYI, if there won't be decision on Kosovo from G8 and there won't be UNSC resolution soon, USA and EU have plan B for Kosovo... This declaration is from White House from yesterday...

Mike - if the people who ultimatley end up owning the Trepca mines have any sense they will privatise it as i doubt anybody/any government in the region has the cash or managerial ability to tap the mines full potential. the lack of financial acumen seems to a problem for the entire balkan region. corruption prevents foreign direct investment which is bad for everyone in the long term whilst some cronies try to control the assets - not a good scenario.

Ahmet - it's called pragmatism and if you'd bothered, you'd realise that i've been advocating partition from day one. it's impractical and immoral to kick out 2 million albanians from their homes, yet if they don't want to live within serbia then they should be allowed to go but on serbia's terms as they land they live on belongs to serbia under international law. that means that as far as i am concerned, the albanians should be allowed to take only the land they live on, notthe northern part which is majority serbian and no swap for presevo as you have no cllaim to it.

arti - i think you'll find that nobody is advocating a land swap of northern kosovo for presevo. there is no need for a swap. the albanians take the southern half of kosovo, the sebs the northern part, end of story. explain how you and other albanians think you have a claim to presevo? is it because albaninas live there? if so, then like i said on another post it shows thetrue nature of your bid for independence i.e. your claim that it s your moral right due to milosevic's actions are a smoke screen for a greater albania, as the albanians in presevo were never involved in the fighting in kosovo and were never expelled from their homes, so how do you have a "moral" claim to presevo? you don't. your aim is clear. to anexx all lands where albanians live, includnig those in macedonia, greece and montengro. this plan will have serious repercussions for albania and it's relaions with it's neighbours in the long run.

Matthew the albanian, sorry montenegrin, the issue is very simple. partition kosovo with the north to the serbs and the south to the albanians. the serbs keep the trepca mines as they are in the north on serbian lands. there is no land swap either presevo or vojvodina and everyone is happy. the albanians get independence, the serbs in northern kosovo stay in serbia and america keeps it's huge base in kosovo. damn, forgot one small item. the political elite of kosovo won't be happy with that situation as kosovo hasno economy. they were hoping to keep the trepca mines as thier cash cow. well, they should have thought about that before trying to gain independence. they can't expect to have their cake and eat it. like i've said before, the population of kosovo had better get used to a live of poverty, because gaining independence won't change th economc facts on the ground. with a poorly educated populations, kosovo and albania are destined to become europe's sweatshops.

PB, you’re the one advocating the abandonment of our cultural and historical heritage not me. Swallow your pride man, it’s not about keeping the Albanians down, its about retaining the cradle of our civilization.

Sorry if I hold no animosity towards the Albanian population and instead have chosen to look at what’s good in their society and culture. If more Serbs felt as I do, then maybe we wouldn’t be in this predicament.

BTW, Trepca was privatized and the money from the sale going to pay off Milosevic’s debts. This is something that should upset both Serbs and Albanians as it’s a great injustice.

Matthew,

It is true that the Kosovo Albanians have a desire to punish Serbia for decades of violence and repression. And I can not deny that I would rejoice at the prospect of Serbia being punished for its crimes. However, I believe “severe” punishment is counterproductive and an approach that will ultimately lead to future violence and even a possible war. These are the lessons we learned from WWI.

These are simple political calculations by the Kosovo Albanians. Partition is considered by the Kosovo Albanians as a concession. “At this point in time” the Kosovo Albanians believe that independence will come one way or another and why should they go for the second best deal (partition). Accepting partition now, for the Kosovo Albanians is like shooting themselves in the leg, its like having the choice of buying a Lada or a Mercedes both for the same price of 1,000 Euros. Which one would you go for?

Partition only comes into play in the unlikely event that Kosovo remains in a stalemate long enough.

The advantage of partition from my perspective is a “final parting of ways”, and an end to the ancient hatreds.

“At this point in time”, there is no reason whatsoever for the Kosovo Albanians to propose partition. In our eyes, partition favors the Serbs and it is the Government of Serbia who should present it as an option, which they have no done.

I would rather not go into to much detail in these forums. By the time scroll to your comment or Mike’s comments I have to go through about a dozen comments calling my fellow countrymen poor and uneducated criminals, which enrages me and affects what I say and how I say it. I will e-mail you first chance I get to discuss this issue in more detail.

Matthew - if you are an orthodox christian then i am a martian.

Yeah, I honestly have always believed that the Western countries promising Albanians independence has had the effect of discouraging you guys from the desire to actually compromise. Which is understandable on your part. I blame the West for creating that situation. I also believe many Serbs are holding out on supporting partition at this time waiting for Ahtisaari's plan to fail so they will be in a better position to negotiate on the terms of partition.

I do actually hope that Russia blocks Ahtisaari's plan so we can actually move forward and try to come to a compromise. Regardless of the outcome, I would never support violence to promote my goals.

I am actually highly interested in Albanian culture and social structure, its nearly identical to my own Montenegrin roots in so many ways. I was raised in the West, completely ignorant of the differences between Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks and Albanians, so it may be a little easier for me to look at the situation objectively.

As I'm sure you're aware, my main concern is our cultural heritage. As someone who has rediscovered his roots and his origins, Kosovo is central to our identity and thus holds great importance to me. We Montenegrins were the ones that kept alive the torch of Kosovo. If it weren't for us, Kosovo may just well as been forgotten.

As my wife's family is from the Krajina area, I do have great sympathy for what your people suffered. No one deserves to have suffered the way so many innocent civilians in the Balkans have suffered. Its only the gangsters and criminals who prospered from those types of atrocities.

PB, what you fail to realize is that if we were able to work with the Croatians in Bosnia and actually compromise and negotiate with them, RS would be a part of Serbia now, as both Serbs and Croats wanted to divide the country and together we would have formed a majority. Its clear as day that Serbia needs to change their negotiating tactics and focus more on diplomacy and forming a consensus. The things that happened in the last couple of decades in the Balkans are shear madness that didn't need to happen. I see the same nonsense going on in Kosovo right now and unless something changes and fast, its all going to go downhill. Only a seriously misguided individual would welcome their neighboring country being poor and destitute (As well as being a very poor argument to convince the Albo's here that partition is in their best interests). Please explain to me how this would benefit Serbia? Poor people have NOTHING to lose, while the rich always want to maintain the status quo. If the Albanians of Kosovo were rich, content and happy as a result of being part of Serbia, do you really think they'd want to riot and engage in guerilla tactics? The reality is those Albanians living in Macedonia who have a standard of living that is equal to Western Europe also have a birthrate that is similar to the rest of Europe. Is it possible that by keeping the Albanians poor and destitute that we sealed our own fate in Kosovo?

In addition PB, I am a direct descendent of Knez Bjelan, we have been nobility since the 10th Century. The Blood of the Nemanjic Dynasty runs in my veins. My family founded the first Library in Belgrade, we participated in the first play in the Serbian language (The Mountain Wreath of course) and built many monasteries, churches and palaces. So yeah, our cultural monuments in Kosovo are very important to me, MY FAMILY built those. So if you'd like to get into a contest on who is the most "Serbian", bring it on, what have you or your family done for Serbia? My guess is that most likely your family were merely pig farmers or peasants under the Ottomans, while my family were busy preserving the culture and history of our people for future generations.

“Matthew - if you are an orthodox christian then i am a martian. (PB, Tuesday, 5 June, 2007, 19:21) “

Here’s further proof…

Bacon is manna from Heaven and Serbs are His Chosen People.

Maybe you really are a Martian?

i dont think the G8 will consume their time in Kosovo issue when there are more urgent issues on economy and trade which is the purpose of the meeting. maybe only small chit chat on kosovo will happen if it will be discussed.

This issue could probably be settled very quickly if al sides decied to partition Kosovo.it's the only "compromise" solution which i think both sides would accept. Serbia won't accept outright independence o all of Kosovo and the Albanians won't accept anything less tha nfull independene so there has to be some compromise on both sides.

serb camp on this site does so much of flip-flopping. One time they say indepndence is dead and at other times they look for partition. Guys , make up your mind what you want because we K-Alb. know exactly what we want and will get it no matter the cost.

The Ahtisari document IS the compromise. If you read it carefully you will come to understand that Kosovo Serbs get more autonomy and protection than any other minority in Europe and they are entitled to financial support from both the Kosovo State Budget and the Serbian State Budget thus making them the richest municipalities in Kosovo and maybe even Serbia.

-----------

First of all i would like to note that i am NOT a supporter of partition. The reasons are many but the main reason is that i believe partition will only worsen the conflict rather than solve it.

To the supporters of partition, consider these points before making hasty and uninformed claims of how partition is a compromise:

1. Most of the Serbian population of Kosovo lived south of Mitrovica (and i think that is still the case)

2. Most of the Serbian property is located in the South.

3. There are scatered serbian villages throughout Kosovo.

4. Almost all of the Serbian Monsteries are located in Southern Kosovo.

ahmet oh yes for sure you will get it - in those magical dreams of yours, that you like to mention all the time.

Ahmet Isufi - you are incorrect. i think you'll find that i always said that i favoured partition.

Nick - most of the current Serb population in kosovo live in northern kosovo now. you keep banging on about the "reality on the ground", so you should recognise the majority of serbs in northern kosovo and partition it accordingly.

PB

what do you think should happen to the southern encalves, churches, monasteries?

Nick - it's unrealistic to have them break away from Kosovo as Kosovo would be on one side and Albania the other. it'll have to go to the Albanian side.

Nick,
What do you think will happen to the mines in the North if Kosovo is partitioned?

PB,

Wasnt it the Serbs that claimed and still claim that Kosovo has deep historical significance for the Serbian nation?

There is nothing historical about the North, all of the Serbian monasteries are in the South.

Does you statement mean that you are willing to sacrifice the Serbian heritage in the south for the coal and other mineral resources in the north?

You're right Nick, and partitioning will probably result in another population exchange, with tremendous loss of property. Plus, parititioning will give absolutely no incentive to Pristina to implement and enforce the Ahtisaari Plan that defends the rights of Serbs. The big issue here is guaranteed security and freedom of movement for the Serb enclaves in the south. While they still make up the majority of Serb communities in Kosovo, they are scattered, isolated, and learless, when compared to the north. Losing whole communities in Gracanica, Strpce, Obilic and Orahovac will undoubtedly create even bigger divisions between an already strained communities.

easy, eaaasy...calm down, folks!

there is no need to divide serbian territory! Kosovo will stay a serbian province, " one way or another" as the desperate pro-indendence writers are always suggesting.

they only can choose between agony or prosperity. since they will rule themselves in an autonomous province.

the one who was boasting about the "serb-camp flip-flopping"... you were obviously wrong. not the first time.

Can someone answer me how do they think that Albanians will ever be able to accept to remain in the same state with Serbia after this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/04/AR2007060400551.html
Thanks,
Kujtim

Nick and Mike - Personally i would let the monasteries go. the mineral wealth is a side issue. What's the pragmatic choice? it's that the vast majority of the serb population live in the north and they don't want to live in an Albanian dominated country, so why should they have to if the albanians don't want to live in a serb dominated country. the albanians ae a minority in the north and under the UN charter they have no right to take the northern part with them. Serbia can rightfully claim the northern part and move it's troops in tomorrow if they wanted to as technically only the "oppressed" albanian lands should be occupied by NATO troops. my guess is that this is what the Serbian government is pressing for with the USA objecting. we'll have to see how the situation pans out in the future.

Nick and MIke - As an aside, if the abanians gain independence from Serbia, then RS should be allowed independence from Bosnia.

DK
FYI even though Trepca mines are located in the north of Mitrovica, they are completly on a Albanian dominated areas. If partition takes place, which I beleive is only wishful thinking for some, the mines still would remain on Albanian part.
Cheers

PB,

I think the Trepca mines will undoubtedly become privatized, opening the entire enterprise up for international bidding. If Slovenes are buying up banks in Kosovo, Trepca could very well become neither Serb or Albanian either.

There will be no partition of the sovereign state of Serbia be that 15%, 10% or 5% - that is not on the table!!!

The key element is that Ahtisaari and the imposed partition of a sovereing UN member has been well and truly shelved

It is June the 4th NO INDEPENDENCE - what has Ceku said since where is he???? Looks like he is hiding and does not want to show his face!!

P.B. and other serb lovers; I thought Kosova was the craddle of little serbia. Now, you are ready to exgange it for northern Mitro. Wow , shmae on you!!!

Beck028 - what difference wold that make. if the north was partitioned and belonged to serbia, the mines would also belong to serbia, or are you suggesting a mini mini state within the serb part of kosovo. wake up and smell the coffee.

hi everybody!!
I have heard and read the serbian plan about this partition thing,according to this plan ( that's how I understood ) #1 the serbian populated lands in northern kosova to be exchanged with albanian populated lands in presheva valley in serbia and #2 the north part of the danube river being anexed to serbia and preshevo valley to be given to kosovo.....Is that right?? I would say if that would be an agrement and resolve once and forever the problems betwen serbian and albanians it wouldn't be bad...instead fightin every now then for these land??? I don't know maybe I didn't get the sense of that plan,can somebody correct me because I'm confused,I mean what the serbs want and would that resolve everything??
thanks,

Beck,

If Kosovo is partitioned at the Ibar river and the mines are located north of the river, it doesn't matter what ethnic group lives there it will remain Serbian!!

Ahmet,

I've always supported partition here.

Nick,

I personally believe I can bring you over to the partition camp if you give me a chance to explain fully. Please feel free to email me at lazslow@hotmail.com

Now my stance.

First and foremost, Serbia needs to come clean with the crimes committed in her name. We need to turn over wanted criminals. We need to apologize and we need a Truth & Reconciliation Commission. And we need to setup some kind of reparation program. All this needs to be done hand in hand with the Partition process and must be included in the discussions.

Trepca should go to the Albanians, they need it as an economic resource more then Serbia needs it. Its absolutely VITAL the Kosovar Albanians have economic stability, otherwise it simply can not work. At the very least, Kosovo should get the taxes from it (its foreign owned, so its gone anyways) for the next 100 years as part of a reparation package. Trepca is clearly a carrot that the Serbian side can offer without it hurting Serbia's interests so much that it endangers the regions future stability.

Presevo is another carrot that Serbia should be willing to offer as it does not truly effect her interests.

Recognizing Kosova as a part of Albania should be something Serbia is willing to consider, if the will of the people in Kosova so choose to do so. Its my understanding that many Kosovars would rather go it alone. I'm Montenegrin and supported our Independence as I think smaller countries are easier to govern and inherently more fair and democratic. However, the option for the Albanians of Kosova to choose their own future should be theirs, not the international community.

Those are 4 fairly substantial carrots that Serbia has to offer without it destroying her future or her past. These are also items that you would not get from the Ahtisaari plan, although I agree Serbia should apologize formally no matter what the outcome.

Now as far as the Serbian side goes, clearly we take the North, with the exception of Trepca.

Now as far as our cultural monuments go, we do need to do some creative thinking. The protection of minorities is important, but keep in mind our heritage and culture is also very important to both Serbs and Montenegrins the world over. Its this issue that has the most potential for future conflicts. Allowing Serbia to feel that we have not "lost" Kosovo yet again, and you take away the prospects for future problems. Serbs are a stubborn people, we'll wait another 600 years to get it back, as silly as that is. I, for one, as moderate as I am, could never accept that as a final solution. I would never support violence to get it back, but I would teach my children to see Kosovo the same way I do. This is something so irrational that Mike probably can't understand.

As I've said before, one possible option is to grant the Serbian Church the same level of Status the Vatican currently enjoys. Since the Vatican's status was negotiated exclusively with Mussolini there is no reason why we can not decide that among ourselves. It might also help to distance the Serbian Church from direct involvement in Serbian politics and allow them to focus more on Serbs as a whole, the world over.

The other options might include population exchanges of minorities living in one another's territory. For example, in exchange for Trepca and a land bridge to that area, the same considerations be given one of our important Church areas.

I would even go so far as to suggest giving areas of Serbia that don't have an Albanian population in exchange for these important cultural areas. Maybe it would be possible to grant some of our fertile land in Vojvodina to Kosova in exchange or something?

For me, I'm so brainwashed by the Serbian "Myth" that I'd actually support trading Belgrade itself for places like Pec!

Nick, the issue is, Ahtisaari's plan is not a compromise. It is in fact one sided, and we both know that. Partition is really a compromise. The Serbs want it all, and we all know that really isn't practical for a number of reasons.

Look, the reality is yes Serbia needs to be punished for her crimes, but not like this. This hurts Serbs and Montenegrins the world over, and plenty of us were strongly opposed to Milosevic's regime.

Nick what is it that you are really opposed to? Is it because its dangerous to partition, or is it because you would like to see Serbs punished as severely as possible? Or what?

Personally, I don't see what other options we have. Russia will veto Ahtisaari's plan, and the US won't let Kosovo stay in Serbia. Unilateral recognition will clearly led to violence and then partition anyways.

We do need to learn to work with one another, no matter what happens we will always be neighbors. Once in the EU, our regional interests will be the same, and to be honest, from reading the forums here, I really don't see any difference in personality between Albanians and Serbs. We're natural allies in the New World Order.

FYI, if there won't be decision on Kosovo from G8 and there won't be UNSC resolution soon, USA and EU have plan B for Kosovo... This declaration is from White House from yesterday...

Mike - if the people who ultimatley end up owning the Trepca mines have any sense they will privatise it as i doubt anybody/any government in the region has the cash or managerial ability to tap the mines full potential. the lack of financial acumen seems to a problem for the entire balkan region. corruption prevents foreign direct investment which is bad for everyone in the long term whilst some cronies try to control the assets - not a good scenario.

Ahmet - it's called pragmatism and if you'd bothered, you'd realise that i've been advocating partition from day one. it's impractical and immoral to kick out 2 million albanians from their homes, yet if they don't want to live within serbia then they should be allowed to go but on serbia's terms as they land they live on belongs to serbia under international law. that means that as far as i am concerned, the albanians should be allowed to take only the land they live on, notthe northern part which is majority serbian and no swap for presevo as you have no cllaim to it.

arti - i think you'll find that nobody is advocating a land swap of northern kosovo for presevo. there is no need for a swap. the albanians take the southern half of kosovo, the sebs the northern part, end of story. explain how you and other albanians think you have a claim to presevo? is it because albaninas live there? if so, then like i said on another post it shows thetrue nature of your bid for independence i.e. your claim that it s your moral right due to milosevic's actions are a smoke screen for a greater albania, as the albanians in presevo were never involved in the fighting in kosovo and were never expelled from their homes, so how do you have a "moral" claim to presevo? you don't. your aim is clear. to anexx all lands where albanians live, includnig those in macedonia, greece and montengro. this plan will have serious repercussions for albania and it's relaions with it's neighbours in the long run.

Matthew the albanian, sorry montenegrin, the issue is very simple. partition kosovo with the north to the serbs and the south to the albanians. the serbs keep the trepca mines as they are in the north on serbian lands. there is no land swap either presevo or vojvodina and everyone is happy. the albanians get independence, the serbs in northern kosovo stay in serbia and america keeps it's huge base in kosovo. damn, forgot one small item. the political elite of kosovo won't be happy with that situation as kosovo hasno economy. they were hoping to keep the trepca mines as thier cash cow. well, they should have thought about that before trying to gain independence. they can't expect to have their cake and eat it. like i've said before, the population of kosovo had better get used to a live of poverty, because gaining independence won't change th economc facts on the ground. with a poorly educated populations, kosovo and albania are destined to become europe's sweatshops.

PB, you’re the one advocating the abandonment of our cultural and historical heritage not me. Swallow your pride man, it’s not about keeping the Albanians down, its about retaining the cradle of our civilization.

Sorry if I hold no animosity towards the Albanian population and instead have chosen to look at what’s good in their society and culture. If more Serbs felt as I do, then maybe we wouldn’t be in this predicament.

BTW, Trepca was privatized and the money from the sale going to pay off Milosevic’s debts. This is something that should upset both Serbs and Albanians as it’s a great injustice.

Matthew,

It is true that the Kosovo Albanians have a desire to punish Serbia for decades of violence and repression. And I can not deny that I would rejoice at the prospect of Serbia being punished for its crimes. However, I believe “severe” punishment is counterproductive and an approach that will ultimately lead to future violence and even a possible war. These are the lessons we learned from WWI.

These are simple political calculations by the Kosovo Albanians. Partition is considered by the Kosovo Albanians as a concession. “At this point in time” the Kosovo Albanians believe that independence will come one way or another and why should they go for the second best deal (partition). Accepting partition now, for the Kosovo Albanians is like shooting themselves in the leg, its like having the choice of buying a Lada or a Mercedes both for the same price of 1,000 Euros. Which one would you go for?

Partition only comes into play in the unlikely event that Kosovo remains in a stalemate long enough.

The advantage of partition from my perspective is a “final parting of ways”, and an end to the ancient hatreds.

“At this point in time”, there is no reason whatsoever for the Kosovo Albanians to propose partition. In our eyes, partition favors the Serbs and it is the Government of Serbia who should present it as an option, which they have no done.

I would rather not go into to much detail in these forums. By the time scroll to your comment or Mike’s comments I have to go through about a dozen comments calling my fellow countrymen poor and uneducated criminals, which enrages me and affects what I say and how I say it. I will e-mail you first chance I get to discuss this issue in more detail.

Matthew - if you are an orthodox christian then i am a martian.

Yeah, I honestly have always believed that the Western countries promising Albanians independence has had the effect of discouraging you guys from the desire to actually compromise. Which is understandable on your part. I blame the West for creating that situation. I also believe many Serbs are holding out on supporting partition at this time waiting for Ahtisaari's plan to fail so they will be in a better position to negotiate on the terms of partition.

I do actually hope that Russia blocks Ahtisaari's plan so we can actually move forward and try to come to a compromise. Regardless of the outcome, I would never support violence to promote my goals.

I am actually highly interested in Albanian culture and social structure, its nearly identical to my own Montenegrin roots in so many ways. I was raised in the West, completely ignorant of the differences between Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks and Albanians, so it may be a little easier for me to look at the situation objectively.

As I'm sure you're aware, my main concern is our cultural heritage. As someone who has rediscovered his roots and his origins, Kosovo is central to our identity and thus holds great importance to me. We Montenegrins were the ones that kept alive the torch of Kosovo. If it weren't for us, Kosovo may just well as been forgotten.

As my wife's family is from the Krajina area, I do have great sympathy for what your people suffered. No one deserves to have suffered the way so many innocent civilians in the Balkans have suffered. Its only the gangsters and criminals who prospered from those types of atrocities.

PB, what you fail to realize is that if we were able to work with the Croatians in Bosnia and actually compromise and negotiate with them, RS would be a part of Serbia now, as both Serbs and Croats wanted to divide the country and together we would have formed a majority. Its clear as day that Serbia needs to change their negotiating tactics and focus more on diplomacy and forming a consensus. The things that happened in the last couple of decades in the Balkans are shear madness that didn't need to happen. I see the same nonsense going on in Kosovo right now and unless something changes and fast, its all going to go downhill. Only a seriously misguided individual would welcome their neighboring country being poor and destitute (As well as being a very poor argument to convince the Albo's here that partition is in their best interests). Please explain to me how this would benefit Serbia? Poor people have NOTHING to lose, while the rich always want to maintain the status quo. If the Albanians of Kosovo were rich, content and happy as a result of being part of Serbia, do you really think they'd want to riot and engage in guerilla tactics? The reality is those Albanians living in Macedonia who have a standard of living that is equal to Western Europe also have a birthrate that is similar to the rest of Europe. Is it possible that by keeping the Albanians poor and destitute that we sealed our own fate in Kosovo?

In addition PB, I am a direct descendent of Knez Bjelan, we have been nobility since the 10th Century. The Blood of the Nemanjic Dynasty runs in my veins. My family founded the first Library in Belgrade, we participated in the first play in the Serbian language (The Mountain Wreath of course) and built many monasteries, churches and palaces. So yeah, our cultural monuments in Kosovo are very important to me, MY FAMILY built those. So if you'd like to get into a contest on who is the most "Serbian", bring it on, what have you or your family done for Serbia? My guess is that most likely your family were merely pig farmers or peasants under the Ottomans, while my family were busy preserving the culture and history of our people for future generations.

“Matthew - if you are an orthodox christian then i am a martian. (PB, Tuesday, 5 June, 2007, 19:21) “

Here’s further proof…

Bacon is manna from Heaven and Serbs are His Chosen People.

Maybe you really are a Martian?