Draft Kosovo resolution in UN today

Have to try and make it look like they tried in May while the US held the UN SC Presidency!!!

Tomorrow will be 1st of June!!!
NO Independence, NO ILLEGAL Declaration, NO ILLEGAL Recognition, NO Violence.

Only possible compromise looking forward to the July meeting in Kennebunkport is Ahtisaari 'Lite' - EUMIK administration and guarantor of rights for all with an obligation to Resolution 1244 and as such status is a continuation of Serbian Sovereignity!

All the Serbian citizens of it's province - Kosovo & Metohija - need to start working together in a new sense of trust & reconciliation and learn to put the 90's behind so that all can prosper and ensure economic development is kick started in what is the poorest region in Europe! A better future for all of Serbia's people (irrespective of the ethnicity) is possible and must be grasped! There is no need to delay this inevitable reality and the sooner it is understood the sooner all of Serbia's citizens will benefit!

Let's see if they got rid of the laughable excuse paragraph that tried to suggest that what took place in Kosovo somehow made it a unique case. It was such a poor attempt to justify the unjustifiable that it was pitiful. In fact, it was the most ridiculous wording ever included in a draft UN resolution. It will also be interesting to see if they have done away with the claim that this new resolution would rescind all previous resolutions, including 1244. If these two elements are gone then we might have the makings of a deal.

Here we go again >"anonymous diplomatic source at the UN"
What a loud of rubbish! The media truly is a joke in all this. Why even publish anonymous people? No one is talking at the UN so the media has to make things up, its like a child's game! I mean all media not just American, Croatian, British, but also Serbian. WOW!

Jim,

Its not the atrocities committed against Albanians that make Kosovo unique. What is unique about it is:

1) The Nato Intervention to stop ethnic cleaning. First time the alliance intervened for humanitarian reasons.

2. The expulsion of the ENTIRE Serbian state apparatus in Kosovo. Not just the army, police and paramilitaries, but the local and central administrations.

3. The establishment of United Nations Mission in Kosovo as an interim government.

4. The establishment of the Kosovo Parliament and the Kosovo Government recognized by the United Nations as the legitimate authorities in charge of governing Kosovo.

5. The revocation of all previous Serbian legislation, except certain non-discriminatory pre-Milosevic Yugoslav laws.

6. During these 8 years we have basically become alien to each other. The new generations’ dont know a single word in Serbian and hardly any Serbs speak any Albanian.

------------------

It is these factors that Kosovo became a unique case. The lack of presence of the Serbian government bodies in Kosovo in whatever shape or form can lead to only one conclusion "independence"

I expect most of you wont understand the implications of the 6 points presented above. After all, you need to make a short visit to Serbia and Kosovo to understand what has really transpired since the war ended.

It is quite ludicrous how some Serbs believe they can impose their will on a population they have had no power over for the last 8 years.

Children between 1 and 10 years old dont even know a single Serb.

Most Serbs have a very strange tendency to fight over lost causes. It is very strange, as if though victimhood brings you peace of heart and legitimizes anything and everything you do.

Jim. And you others: slavko, zdravko, ratko, etc. Im not gonna talk about thousands of killed, massacred or simply dissapeared albanians in Kosovo from 1913 till 1999. If you think this is not still enough to give this area the right of autodeteremination, than I should say there is something wrong with your principles of human rights. My suggestion for all those who are crying now about the so called "illegal independence", is to take a look to the Chart of anti-colonialism of the UN (1961). Any nation, minority or community which suffers discrimination or doesnt enjoys equal rights within a state, have the full right to seek partition with all the means.

Here we go again about this Kosovo business they have been promising independence for a year now and PM Ceku promised by the end of May. Correct me if i am wrong it is 31 May 07 and i don't see a compromise anytime soon.

yeah, agree.

once again, we are being served some "news" of a completely doubtful source. the pro-independence-supporters ( to avoid the term Albanians ) seem to be the only ones, who eagerly accept doubtful sources, anonymous persons "close to" some " inner circles" etc. ...

lousy work, seen from the journalistic standpoint.
as if B92 is still a bunch of students writing what they have picked up on the street...

I have to reiterate that blocking the creation of a new resolution when one already exisits that needs to be implemented fully first is in Russia's best interest.

Vetoing the folly of dismembering a UN recognised Member state would force the US into the position of removing sui generis if it then chose to ignore the earlier resolution 1244 it and the UN have affirmed and the Helsinki act.

In doing so Russia could apply the same actions that the US follow in all near home matters that are important to them at the loss of the US and it's interest. But this would create the conflict that the US would have liked to pin on the Russians but instead would be a direct act of the US actions. The EU would run a mile and have already said they will do nothing without a new resolution. I think this has now dawned upon the US administration that the Russians are on this issue in a win-win position and can and will utilise the veto as it will gain much more through such a scenario. If the veto happened the US would be faced with backing down completly since it could not ILLEGALLY recognise any ILLEGAL unilateral declarations - note how this bluff is now little mentioned! In such a scenarion Serbia will have finalised status once and for all - 1244 would remain! The difficult part will be for the US to control the false aspirations they have given to only one of many ethnic groups from the Serbian province of Kosovo & Metohija - namely the ethnic-Albanians who will have to "conform to it" that they are and always have been Serbian citizens! At such a point Ahtisaari 'lite' (no dissimilar to more than autonomy less than independence) will be a more than acceptable solution for all under the new realities. Why it would have taken so long for the reality to sink in is beyond belief bit is looks all the more likely day by day that this is exactly the way things will develop when Putin & Bush meet in July!

@ Nick,

All the points you made could be equally, if not better, made in the case of the Turkish Cypriots. Interestingly, given that the constitution of Cyprus explicitly allowed Britain, Greece and/or Turkey to intervene if the constitution was challenged, the Turkish invasion of 1974 had more legitimacy under international law than NATO's actions in Kosovo! Moreiover, after thirty years of living apart from Greek Cypriots (not just 8), and having established far stronger and more efficient institutions and laws than in Kosovo, the world still asks the Turkish Cypriots to reconcile with the Greek Cypriots. No one is seriously talking about independence there and there is in fact just as strong a case for it as there is in Kosovo.

The simple fact is that Kosovo Albanian case is not unique, no matter how anyone tries to argue otherwise. The EU knows it and the US knows it. The only reason that they are willing to take the risk of granting independence is because they are afraid of violence. It is nothing more than foreign policy made by blackmail. In fact, there will be a collectively sigh of relief if Russia vetos independence.

Nick,

the failures of the UNMIK administration in formulating a proper "multi-ethnic" society over the last 8 years are exactly the same reasoning the Russians utilise to stop such folly of trying to ignore the failings and pretend all is well with a new resolution!!!

You need to first implement the resolution that was affirmed before anyone can move on. Resolution 1244 reaffirmed that Kosovo & Metohija is integral to Serbia and it is a failure of the UNMIK administration to have not ensured the education of all of Serbia's citizens the languange of the State! That in itself is an ominous precedent for any seperatist ethnic group in any state - you suggest they just need to not learn the national language for 8 years and ignore the institutions of the host nation and hey presto you deserve an independent nation!?!?! Beyond the point that it has no historical, ethnic nor economic validity for being - this seems like sound reasoning but I would have to disagree!!! It is a very strange notion that you put forth and in which respect no nation would be spared form ethni turmoil and separatism!!! Where next would you advocate the dismemberment and partition of a nation on the notion that a self imposed segregation deserves independence ???? Surely failings and mistakes need to be put right not ignored and avoiding the mistakes will not correct them either! Suerly the penny is starting to drop that all are citizens of Serbia and the best way forward is learning to "conform to it" and intergrating in the state you are in!!! If this had happened in the first place then economic development of the region would have not been an issue!

Nick - Running through your 6 points about why Kosovo is a unique case, and viewing them from a different perspective:

1) "The Nato Intervention to stop ethnic cleaning. First time the alliance intervened for humanitarian reasons."

That may have made the REASON for intervention unique but now the evangelistic hysteria about the first ever 'humanitarian war' (oxymoron) intervention has died down, we are back to concrete charters and laws.
Therefore the reason for intervention has no bearing on where things stand today;


2. "The expulsion of the ENTIRE Serbian state apparatus in Kosovo. Not just the army, police and paramilitaries, but the local and central administrations."

These could be reincorporated alongside the international bodies AND the local bodies over a period of time.

3. "The establishment of United Nations Mission in Kosovo as an interim government."

Again, with careful handling and time this could be passed over to the national and local institutions;

4. "The establishment of the Kosovo Parliament and the Kosovo Government recognized by the United Nations as the legitimate authorities in charge of governing Kosovo."

Under a fully autonomous Kosovo this would still be the case, but instead of international institutions they would also gradually work alongside national institutions;

5. "The revocation of all previous Serbian legislation, except certain non-discriminatory pre-Milosevic Yugoslav laws."

Again, this could all be changed at the same time that Serbia is undergoing national governmental change, and moving more towards European legislation.

6. "During these 8 years we have basically become alien to each other. The new generations’ dont know a single word in Serbian and hardly any Serbs speak any Albanian."

As the UN agreed under 1244 that Kosovo was still an integral part of Serbia, and there was so much pomp about creating a 'multi-ethnic' society, it was up to the international community to ensure that Serbian was taught in the province of Serbia under their guard.
It was very shortsighted not to have done this.

As for the young children, it is up to parents to teach their children not to hate whole groups of people. That goes for all parents of all nationalities and ethnicities. Children like meeting new groups and have total open minds unless polluted by adults.

If any of the inhabitants of Kosovo don't want to move forward and compromise in order to exist within their sovereign state and with their neighbours, then what are they going to do? Isolate themselves? Turn to violence?

None of these are productive or logical. Whether Kosovo is autonomous or partitioned, nothing will move forward until the two communities are able to co-exist and work together and with the state.

Every territory has a "unique" history. The EU/US argument that Kosovo is a "unique" case is lazy, mendacious and patently unjust.

To Nick,

You wrote:
I expect most of you wont understand the implications of the 6 points presented above. After all, you need to make a short visit to Serbia and Kosovo to understand what has really transpired since the war ended.

You seem to feel like you know what you're talking about and like you know Kosovo and Serbia. I bet all you know is what you read period. Name me 3 towns in Kosovo with a population of less then 300 people, and the same for 3 towns in Serbia. I specifically ask that the towns have less then 300 people because they will not show up easily on any Internet maps of Kosovo and Serbia. I think you can not name these towns. But yet you preach and talk down to Serbs as if you are an authority. Perhaps you should exercise some manners, and a bit of respect. Also perhaps you should read this article > http://www.theonerepublic.com/archives/Columns/Gorin/20070530GorinProAmerican.html

Canadian,

For your information i was born in the town of Gjakova (Serb: Djakovica) on the south-western part of Kosovo and currently live and work in Prishtina (for your information, capital of Kosovo) More precisely i am writing about 200 meters from the Scanderbeg Statue and close to the former Hotel Bozhur.

3 Villages in Kosovo with less than 300 people:

In the Municipality of Gjakova: (Meja, Nec, Plankqorr, Baballoq, Berkoc, Babaj te Bokes, Smolica, Skivjan, Nashec, Bec)

In the Municipality of Rahovec:

(Gexhe, Radoste, Ratkoc, Pastasel i Ulet, Pastasel i Eperm, Senoc, Drenoc, Guri i Kuq, Mrasor, Koznik, Dardhe e Vogel)

I have visited all of the villages of the municipalities of Gjakova, Rahoves, Peja and Prizren when working with the European Agjency for Reconstruction assesing war damages and providing building materials for the reconstruction of tens of thousands of burned homes.

I have never been to Serbia nor do i want to go there so i dont know any villages there.

The only theory I have as to why the USA is risking angering the Russians and committing such an illegal act is so George Bush could say he accomplished one foreign policy objective without war, and also did it for a Muslim people. This is not about what is right or wrong in the eyes of the USA. This is about what it will do for them, as in their image to the muslim world. I do find it sad that they are willing to sacrifice the Serbian people for this, but they don't care much for the Balkans.

George Bush has been making one mistake after another. I'm sure this is his way of taking the easy road for a quick Clinton-like victory. Since the Serbian people didn't put up too much of a fight in 1999, they think it will be a piece of cake.

To Nick:

So then you do know Kosovo. Because I conquer that at least 3 of those villages, are indeed 300 or less people, however there are several on your list that I never heard of, are you people changing names of villages now? Like you added the "a" to Kosovo? Also as you admit yourself you have never been to Serbia, so you don't know much about anything other then the immediate province of Kosovo. Nonetheless I appreciate you taking the time to answer my challenge. It is a shame that you are such a nationalist. You know of course that last month 1300 grade school Albanians went on a field trip to Belgrade, and enjoyed themselves, as reported on B92. I wonder when it would be possible for 1300 Serbian grade school students to go on a trip to Pristina. Who is really the a nationalist people, Serbs or Albanians?

independence? how can you celebrate when legally you'll alway remain a part of serbia. the whole WORLD can back your independence move but if russia uses it's veto then you have no legal claim to Kosovo. it's as simple as that. you may have defacto indepenence, but when the USA has no use for Kosovo territory and moves out Serbia can rightly claim it's territory. it may be a long time, but ultimately the albanians will lose out which is why you, the europeans and the USA are so desperate for Russia NOT to use it's veto. The USA and the europeans know full well the implications of a russian veto. Kosovo as an independent state would be like a ticking time bomb.

Lets see...east timor independence (which was part of a much more powerful nation than serbia) didnt cause a precedent so to say that Kosovo will all of a sudden become a precedent is hard to understand. why is kosovo more of a precedent than east timor? especially since conflict in east timor was on lower scale than kosovo. Not surprising serbs ignore east timor situation, as it drowns their precedent theory.

If anything, east timor can be used as an excuse for kosovo to claim independence, but they are not which proves that each case is always judged on individual merits.

Serbs think they are more important than they really are and unfortunately it has people with rascist attitutes like Princip which dont help their own cause.

Nick: "I have never been to Serbia."

If you are in Kosovo, you are living in Serbia! What a disrespectful and unrealistic thing to say.

It really is about time that serbia let this matter rest, kosovo never had any hope it is a basket case

Nick,

"I have never been to Serbia nor do i want to go there so i dont know any villages there."

- well according to the rest of the world and as reaffirmed in resolution 1244 all those places you have visited are in Serbia!!!

To suggest otherwise would be the same folly as I a British citizen of Serbian heritage stating I have been to Londonu (English -London), Birminghama, Leedsu and never visited the UK while living in my independent (fantasy) world of "Ealing'Ar"!!!

You are just as much a Serbian citizen as I am a British citizen!! In which case as Blair said recently to ethnic groups in the UK and the same can be said by Tadic or Kostunica - "Conform to it"!!!

After today is over with no resolution at least the penny will have dropped in Ceku's delusional mind since last November when he promised Independence in early 2007
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=38102
or more recently he told the US press he was certain that independence will be granted in May!!!!
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=40986

Ceku has lost all credibility after today has been and gone without any so called folly being passed in the UN!

Daniel please clarify what you mean by the insult you put forth;

unfortunately it has people with rascist attitutes like Princip which dont help their own cause.
(Daniel, Thursday, 31 May, 2007, 13:42)

- enlighten me on when I have suggested any comment that you slur as rascist!!! To not reply with concrete evidence will only illuminate your own ignorance!!!

Let stick to now instead of going back to 1913 folks if dealt with now instead of stuff we could not control i am sure we would be a hold lot better off instead of bringing up the past to justify breaking away from Serbia it that is case then the Serbs of Northern Kosovo could break away like the western part of Macedoina or northern greece.

Dear Princip,
well, it is very hard to compare UK and Serbia, Blair and Kostunica/Milosevic.
I see that the nearer it is the status decision by the UN the higher is the serbian nervousness.
I hope that every kind of status decision does not cause violence eliminating any possibility of future cooperation between Serbian and Albanian people.

Canadian,

"so you don't know much about anything other then the immediate province of Kosovo."

On the contrary my friend, i have visited most of Europe and i worked in the Fairview University Medical Center in Minneapolis for 2 years.

I simply didnt want to visit Serbia, its as simple as that.

Princip have you seen UNMIK travel passports? Does it say anywhere resolution 1244 or Serbia? have you been in Prishtina lately? There are no flags or any emblem of Serbian or Russian state!
here is a stamp you will get when you enter Kosova
http://www.deletetheweb.com/unstuck/UNMIK-stamp1.jpg
does it say anywhere Serbia or Russia !?

PB,

Day in day out you bring up the russian veto as something like the end of the world. You really overdo its importance. Yes I firmly believe there will be one. The Russians would otherwise lose their face. Also it is clear that they are hell bent on confrontations with the West...just like in the good old days. Regardless of the russian veto Kosovo will become independent.

@ Nick

From your lack of response to the various replies to your point, I take it that you now see that Kosovo cannot be regarded as unique.

@ Daniel

For the umpteenth time, international law only recognises a right to self-determination in cases of decolonisation or military occupation. It does not exist simply because a minority in a state no longer wants to live under the sovereignty of the state in the question. East Timor is in the former category. It was annexed by Indonesia following its decolonisation by Portugal. Kosovo falls into the latter category, along with any number of other separatist minorities that are trying to gain independence. It is not so difficult to understand!

If you are in Kosovo, you are living in Serbia! What a disrespectful and unrealistic thing to say.

Kate,

what an unvoluntary sense of black humour! Well, that happen when you're not in touch with the reality you spend time preaching for. Had you seen a tank parket in your farmyard aiming at your house you would have lost any kind of respect towards that kind of state.

But it seems to me that the more the solution approaches the more tha anti-independence side is backing to totally unrealistic views.

Princip, more I read your comments more I belive that you are loosing your reasoning with regards to Kosova issue. Same goes to Kate, Jovan, Jim and some others that believe in "Kosovo je Srbija" myth set by Milosevic and many other vic's in Serbias past.
Guys, you have to forget one and for all that Kosova was never Serbia, its population can tell that now and I could have told that long ago.Guys do not be blind, be more acedemic. Imagime if you guys wrote these comments with your full names, that would bring you embarecment would it.
Guys, the indipencende is inevitable because the people of Kosova do not want to live with the terorrists/rapers/psycho killers from Serbia especially now when ther is nothing that links these two countries. Come to Kosova and see for yourself that Kosova is flourishing. Kosova was NEVER serbia, it was occupied from Serbia but NEVER Serbia.

A serious question, what ever happened to Ahtisaari's plan in the first place? Was it even discussed?

Nick,
I don't blame you for not wanting to visit Serbia. I would not do it either for safety reasons. I have Hungarian friends, who visited Vojvodina and were attacked by Serbs. Attacks like that make a very bad publicity for Serbia.

Jim,

I am not responding because no response is necesary. Regardless of what i argument our positions will still be further away from each other than ever before.

I have yet to see a discussion in these forums where Serbs and K-Albanians agree on something regarding Kosovo.

So i consider the best approach is for me to present my opnion and for you to present yours. And thats that.

ilir,
I agree that things like that have been happening to Albanians but more has been done to the Serbs in Kosovo. Their population has significantly deteriorated over the years, because of Albanian killings, rape, kidnapping and terror on the Serbs. Both sides can argue the same argument and the Serbs probably more so because of the Albanians cooperation with the Ottoman and Nazi occupation during the Balkan and World Wars. You cannot compare what Milosevic "did" to what Albanians along with the occupators did to the Serbs. Please stop making it sound like Albanians are angles who are guilty of nothing.

Jim

Your comment is quite funny. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Kosovo was annexed by Serbia in 1913 (with majority albanian pop.) after the decolonisation of Kosovo from the Ottoman Empire that ruled it for 5 centuries (much longer than serbs by the way). So i guess Kosovo falls in the former category same as East Timor.

@Nick

You dont want to visit Serbia. Here is something that might shock you so you better take a seat. You live in Serbia since Kosovo is Serbia.

Daniel, unfortuantely the facts of the East Timor situation don't match your narrative.

ET declared independence after the colonial power Portugal left in 1975. Before this could be recognised Indonesia invaded claiming the new ET government was potentially communist. The next year it became a province of Indonesia despite being "non-self-governing territory under Portuguese administration" according to the UN. The Indonesian occupation wasn't recognised as such. During the occupation and conflict Amnesty Internation estimated the deaths to be 200,000. Other estimates were between 60,000 and that figure. Currently ET's population is 950,000. Most of this violence under reported by the Western Media.

As you can see the parallel's between Kosovo and East Timor are few. The most important fact of all is that Kosovo being part of Serbia is internationally recognised where as ET being part of Indonesia was not.

So not such a surprise Serbs or anyone else talking about Kosovo generally doesn't cite the East Timor situation, as the situation is very different.

But laki you can travel to and from Kosovo with greater ease with a Serbian passport!

The stamp does say UNMIK and UNMIK was created by UNSC resolution 1244.

Nick, in which country was Đakovica/Djakovica/Ђаковица/ Gjakova/Gjakovë in when you were born there?

princip,the british do not treat there citizens the way the serbian peopl have in the former yugoslavia. your opinion matter very little in weather kosova becomes independant or not now, soon, or in the future
as anything you have to say cannnot alter the course of events of which the world community finds abhorent at what the serbs did in the 90's. now its up to russia and the usa decide how this will unfold. russia has asked for serbia a nd kosova to negotiate, why wasnt this done 8yrs ago why wasnt the new serbian constitution set up so that the albanians were included as part of serbian citizens and a minority with all its rights language etc but only the land. well its not a very well thought of plan with eu norms

Dear Nick and Kate,
I think it would be appropriate to add to the 6-points of "uniqness" of Kosovo one more point (7): for the first time in a post-Second World War history a group of people, without launching a major military hostilities, is planning to slice off a big piece of the territory of a sovereign state (Serbia) - simply to satisfy their selfish ambitions. It is really a "unique" case in today's world!

Reading comments in this forum has become like attending children's playground ( No its mine, no it's mine).
In order to make a comment worthy of paying any attention you have to avoid 1) insulting one another 2) try and not use derogatory language (offensive), anti oppressive approach tends to work better 3) don't post the same things over and over ( copy and paste)

Whichever way you look the Kosovan final status issue ( being realistic) is not going to satisfy both parties involved. Therefore, conventional thinking suggests that primarily we have to think why we are where we are? Will the history repeat itself? And what can we do to move (peacefully) forward and ensure long lasting peace and stability in the region which has been longing for a long time.

To date Serbian political “elite” failed to show respect to Kosovars and continue with their 'nationalistic' approach to what is a very sensitive matter. There was a time when Kosovars requested negotiations but that fell in def ears in Belgrade. Given current attitude in the Serbian politics its incomprehensible to even think how Kosovars would be integrated in such environment.

Without going into much details of this, there are arguments in both grounds. But as currently we can all see bookies favorite Kosovans, given the overwhelming support from international community. Yes Russia is opposing and it's likely will continue to do so until inturn they get few more carrots and as we have seen in the past they will back down. However if they strenuously object and sustain current position (remember Israil), then Kosovo will unilaterally proclaim their independence. Life will be harsh but the freedom will be priceless and justice will finally prevail and again Serbian minority in Kosovo will be the losers. Remember Kosovars run parallel states from mid 80's to 1998 under a brutal and barbaric regime but with the independence there is immense hope that Kosovars will make it work for themselves.

As i said before the Independence is neither imminent nor inevitable

Could you serbs tell what is the real solution if not indipendence of Kosovo? did you ever (apart of rethorics, contamination of the Kosovo minorities, extending the underground activities) have done any thing convincing for what you look for? Tell only one single fact>

"Lets see...east timor independence (which was part of a much more powerful nation than serbia) didnt cause a precedent so to say that Kosovo will all of a sudden become a precedent is hard to understand. why is kosovo more of a precedent than east timor? (Daniel, Thursday, 31 May, 2007, 13:42) "
The reason is simple -- Indonesia's then President Harbibi formally allowed the Timorese to conduct a referendum on independence which they did and subsequently became independent with Indonesia's consent. This consent is totally lacking in Belgrade's case.

One more thing, all the world is now aware of Russia's opposition to an imposed solution. Not many know that China is just as resolved too -- why you ask? Because in the 19th Century, the very countries (UK, US, France, Germany and Italy) together with Japan which forced a weakened China of the Qing Dynasty to cede Hong Kong, Tientsin, Shanghai, Taiwan etc are the very same countries now trying to impose their position on Serbia. Not many in the world knows this, but the Chinese actualy feel a kinship with the Serbians on this Western bullying -- it is nothing new to the Chinese as far as they are concerned. So don't expect the West's UN resolution proposal on Kosovo to get a sympathetic Chinese reception either!

To Genc, Nick, and Co.

Go to CNN, AP, Reuters etc. You will notice every article regarding Kosovo starts off with "Pristina, Serbia" and refers to it as the "Serbian province of Kosovo".

Welcome to reality my friend.

To all of you who are saying Kosovo is serbia, go to Pristina (part of SErbia, too, according to you) and say it loudly or just even go there.

Nick what you say favors partition. If Serbs are not going to integrate into Albanian institutions than the only thing to do is for the Serb areas to remian a part of Serbia.

Joe, I remind you about it all the time because it's obvious that you nor the other albanians don't seem to truly understand the ramifications of a Russian veto - no official rcognition by the EU, UN, IMF, World bank, etc,etc. You'll end up ni the same situation as Northern Cyprus and believe me, the standard of living in Northern Cyprus is very poor indeed after 30+ years of isolation. Kosovo will suffer the same fate and probably worse as at least northern Cyprus is protected by it's kin - Turkey. What will Kosovo do when the USA has no more use for it?? The end of that patronage will be the final nail in the coffin for Kosovo. As for Vojvodina, i'm sure you'd like to break that away from Serbia, but unfortunately that isn't going to happen.

Philip Davis,

Gjakova was part of a federal entity of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

John 2,

What you just said is by far the smartest thing here.

Joe, unfortunately although you and your fellow Hungarians would like to annex Vojvodina it just isn't going to happen. you'll just have to live with the fact that the Austro-Hungarian empire crumbled many years ago and is not going to come back. it's petty of you to have such anti Serb feelings over an incident which occurred nearly 100 years ago, caused WWI and resulte in the break up of the Hungarian empire. it's happened - deal with it.

Kosovo won't set any precedent. Bangladesh, Eritrea and East Timor are similar if not identical cases.

@ Nikshala

Please credit me with a bit of intelligence! I am not shooting myself in the foot. Like many others on this forum, you don't know much about international relations or international law. Kosovo is not a colony. This is not only made clear by the fact that it was internationally recognised as a province of Serbia in the context of Yugoslavia, it is also confirmed under Resolution 1244. I have never heard any serious official or analyst argue that it is a colony of Serbia that would give it a right to self-determination on these grounds. Had there been any right to claim independence, don't you think that those advocating independence would have presented it and saved themselves all the current trouble they are facing. Or are they just stupid as well?

So, who's laughing now?

@ Nick

You can duck out of the argument all you like, but the fact remains that Kosovo cannot be seen as unique. I presented a good case for why Northern Cyprus has a greater right to independence than Kosovo. You can say that we don't agree and that we never will, but this is exactly the negotiating strategy that got the Kosovo Albanians into the mess they are facing now!

Victor...

everyone makes mistakes and everyone have the right to learn from and to correct oneself.
the international community is just amending something wrong they did toward Albanians,in 1913,with the treaty of london.
And it's not a coicidence that,was an american, president Wilson who arrested the serbian expansionist plans against the Albanian state during the peace conference in paris after WW1 and here they are about 100years later the Americans,again,stoping your obscure planes over the Kosovar state.
however these things are not important anymore,finally the UN security council will "illuminate" us with the finall decision...supervised independence or full independence(in case of russian veto),i guess which is better.

Princip, Kate and some others

It is easy for you to comment here about international law, Serbia's territory, history etc etc. - since you live in safety in UK and whatever happens in Kosovo won't affect you.

You obviously have never even set foot in Kosovo or met any albanians, judging by your lack of understanding of the situation on the ground. Anybody who has been in Kosovo has realised that the only possible solution for at least next 4 or 5 decades is Independence.

Yes, Russia can cause trouble, which will make the recoginition more difficult for now, but the end result is the same.

Albanians never dropped their aspirations for independece even during the Milosevic brutal regime and before the war, what makes you think that they will now, or maybe after Russia's veto?

For you Princip & Co the status of Kosovo is obviously about scoring some cheap political, hisotrical points, whereas for us albanians its about our life and home.

propoganda agaisnt albanians paint a differnt picture disregarding the reality on teh ground

http://www.pbase.com/alangrant
http://www.world66.com/europe/albania
http://www.albca.com/aclis/
http://www.univers-al.com/eng/index.html
http://www.albania-hotel.com/tirana_hotels.html
What Serbs have done agaisnt other republics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omarska_concentration_camp
http://balkansnet.org/nusreta.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/inside_kosovo/velika_krusa.stm
http://newsblaze.com/story/20070426075856tsop.nb/newsblaze/TOPSTORY/Top-Storhttp://usinfo.state.gov/usinfo/Archive/2007/Apr/24-260083.htmlies.html
http://usinfo.state.gov/usinfo/Archive/2007/Apr/24-469491.html
http://kosovo-community-cultural-heritage.blogspot.com/
http://www.kare11.com/video/player.aspx?aid=46581&bw=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwl1xyzgd-o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX17oIPKubA&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-lglzKMqe4&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvALgPN5JBw

http://photos8.flickr.com/10670056_ec8e1b80fc_m.jpg

http://www.hri.org/news/balkans/rferl/1998/98-10-29.rferl.html

http://www.pbase.com/alangrant/albania
http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/messagepost.cfm?postaction=reply&catid=15&threadid=1032527&messid=8826019&STARTPAGE=3&parentid=0&from=2

DMXPHPB,
It is very childish from you to resort to accusations of annexation. It seems that you have no arguments. The other thing: why are you diverting the subject from the current situation of the Hungarians from Vojvodina with Sarajevo of 100 years ago? Instead of Sarajevo you could perhaps also explain why 60 - 80,000 peacefull Hungarian peasants were massacred in 1944.

Philip Davies, you asked in a very meaningful way '... in which country was Gjakova/...'!?
Answer: it was in occupied Kosovo and now is in free Kosova...
Nick, don't be provocated by the comments of the others on your statements. Kosovars never considered Kosovo as part of Serbia and when they traveled to/through Serbia they knew exactly where the borders are. Serbia was never homeland of Kosovars, Sebia was occupier of Kosovo. Why it should be now interpreted differently?!
Question for Serbs and those who are on their side: if you considered Kosovo as part of Serbia how could you destroy it that way, how you could kill, masacre, rape, burn your own citizens?!?!?! It must be clear once and forever that Kosovo had and has its own way, Serbia can not have Kosovo without Kosovars, Kosovo and Serbia can try to be only good neighbors after official excuse from Serbs and Serbia... Good luck Kosovo on your own way...

Princip, not that Kosovars are (not) Serbian citizens, but K-Serbs in Serbia are called
'S(h)iptari'. I guess this is not new for you and this tells a lot...

Now I know that Joe is a fraud. You say that your Hungarian friends were attacked by Serbs in Vojvodina?? Give me a break! I was born in Vojvodina and Hungarians are treated with total equality! In addition, they are quite happy living in Serbia, just like the Albanians who live in Belgrade and are treated very well. Do Albanians or Hungarians need military escorts to go grocery shopping in Serbia, the way that Serb grandmothers need it in Kosovo? No. It is very obvious who are the good guys and who are the bad guys here. Just like the great Canadian General Lewis Mackenzie has said, 'We Bombed the Wrong Side'
http://www.balkanpeace.org/index.php?index=article&articleid=7427

Dane, "Kosovars" are the inhabitants of Kosovo and not specifically the Albanian inhabitants of Kosovo. You cannot claim that Serbia was an occupying power when no other country in the world backs up that claim (other than perhaps Albania).

Nick, Kosovo may have been a federal entity but it was also part of the Serbia according to the 1974 constitution. http://sl.wikisource.org/wiki/Ustava_Socialisti%C4%8Dne_federativne_republike_Jugoslavije_%281974%29/Socialisti%C4%8Dna_federativna_republika_Jugoslavija

@nikshala you said:
"It is easy for you to comment here about international law, Serbia's territory, history etc etc. - since you live in safety in UK and whatever happens in Kosovo won't affect you."

I say:
You are utterly wrong and selfish. There are many foreign posters here exactly because an independent KosovA will effect us. It will fatally damage the international institutions and laws which provide peace and stability for most of the planet, in particular the UN Charter and the Helsinki Final Act. For a precedent to be set whereby a large slice of a sovereign state can be severed by decree against the wishes of that sovereign state is quite frankly horrifying in its implications.

For your information there are 192 recognised countries in the world but over 5000 significant ethnic groups. If all it takes to make a new country is for an ethnic group to shoot enough police and civilians to provoke a robust response from state security services, then anarchy and chaos is in store for the whole world in the future. So tell me is the petulance of one small group of people sitting on a bit turf in the Balkan mountains more or less important than the fabric by which the majority of the world functions peacefully??

80,000 Hungarians massacred in 1944? by who? Tito? lest i forget, he was your ethnic ally - a Croat.

Dane,

Thanks for the advice, i do understand where Philip Davis was going with his question and sometimes it does not hurt to play his/their game.

Philip Davis,

I am not trying to prove that
Kosovo was not a province of Serbia after 1974. But i am trying to explain that Kosovo was also a federal entity, something most Serbs dont understand or appreciate.

However, what the Law or International Agreements say and what the situation in the ground is, are two completely different things.

The people of Kosovo (and by that i mean the majority of the people of Kosovo) never considered Serbia as their country and as Dane correctly explained we consider Kosovo was occupied by Serbia in 1912.

There is for example an international legal instrument called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Convention on Genocide, which say many things about the violation of human rights and such, but does that prevent people or countries from violating those rights?

Do you think the Serbian Army, Police and Paramilitaties were thinking of international law when they murdered thousands of innocent people, burned hundreds of thousands of homes as expelled over 1 mln people?

Why werent you so keen in implementing international law betwen 1989-1999?

Joe, I had this argument with you about the so called Hungarian peasants many weeks ago! Hungarians along with their German and Croatian fellow Fascists conducted a GENOCIDE against Serbs in Vojvodina between 1941-1944. Hungarians along with Germans, Croats were killed in 1944 when vojvodina was LIBERATED from the before mentioned fascists, official figures range from several thousand to 20,000. This GENOCIDE committed against the Serbs in their own country is well documented, unlike the alleged genocide the Serbs are accused of committing in the 90's. Talk about DISINFORMATION!

The fact remains that the folly has been ended and there needs a new sense of reality for all the peoples of Serbia - including those of ethnic Albanian heritage in the Serbian province of Kosovo & Metohija. Like I have said before if an ethnic-Albanian can live in any other region of Serbia then what is different about ethnic Albanians in the Serbian province - "Conform to it" - seeing as the folly has been stopped - NO Independence!!!

Sorry to burst everyones bubble, but here it goes. Anyone who is in DOUBT of where Kosovo belongs please pull out your Map/Atlas/Encyclopedia (you get the point). Look for the country named Kosova. The reason you will not find it is simply because it does NOT exist, and never has (search through any old archives). Now look up Serbia, take a look at its 2 provinces. You will notice its southern most one is KOSOVO which borders Albania. Its not rocket science now is it. So tell me now how many of you would fail a grade 4 geography class?

Wishful thinking is one thing, reality is another. Just because many people believe in Santa Clauses north pole, doesn't mean it REALLY exists. The same goes for Kosova. Just another imaginary piece of land.

Gen. Lewis MacKenzie was openly
pro-Serbian with strong anti-Muslim sentiments.
please see this link about famous GEN. Lewis MacKenzie

http://www.geocities.com/famous_bosniaks/english/general_lewis_mackenzie.html

Nick,

You state that you have never been to Serbia, but claim to have been born in Kosovo?? Ummm?? Hmmm??

Dragan,
You just repeate the official version..."Hungarians are treated with total equity". The reality is unfortunately totaly different.
About military escort: that would be a good idea for some Hungarian children going or returning from school, who often are attacked on there way. Parents organize themself to acompign them.

even if some childish guys here will once again talk about racism, without reason of course, here the ultimate answer on those naive dreams of the Russians backing down before the " one and only global superpower" ( ridiculous, every time I think of it )

“I can’t imagine a situation where the Security Council will approve such a resolution,” Mr. Lavrov said. “Such a situation will not happen.”

source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/31/world/europe/31diplo.html

Svetlana

Here is a little wake up call.

We all know you wont even read this but no worries. Truth comes out sooner or later.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=795

Jack. Do you agree that a state have obligations over a population which is governed by it? So, how do you expect a population to stay quiet meanwhile the state hunts them, bans them from the full range of services a state have to provide a population, and even expulse them TOTALLY, inventing juridic, political and even historic arguments (it happened in Kosovo in 1913-1914, it repeated in 1925, and again in 1946. Over 1 million of albanians were sent in Turkey with a state organized program of ethnic cleaning of Kosovo). On your opinion, what has to do the population in this conditions? Maybe take down the pants and wait? Well, if you are supporter of this idea, I am sorry for you, but this is not a characteristic shared by albanians. The natural response is resistence. We did it. You sent the army and commited genocide. Given it was the era of internet and TV those crimes were witnessed and the world noticed of everything. And now, you are trying to tell us: Nothing happened, forget everything and accept to be slaughtered again.
ARE U KIDDING? Kosovo is independent de facto. Soon or late it will became so also de jure. You will cry and fight a little, but at the end the history will not go backwards.

6 arrested in plot to kill soldiers at Fort Dix
Posted by The Star-Ledger May 08, 2007 6:02PM

Just thought all of you Kosovo albanians out here telling us how much albanians love the US may want to see this headline. And this little outtake.

"Some of the would-be attackers have been living illegally in the United States, while others are legal immigrants, according to the U.S. Attorney's Office. Four are ethnic Albanians, one was born in Turkey, and a sixth was born in Jordan.

Officials identified the men as Dritan Duka, 28, Eljvir Duka, 23, Shain Duka, 26, Serdar Tatar, 23, Mohamad Shnewer, 22, and Agron Abdullahu, 24.

The six had been under FBI surveillance for 15 months and prepared for their alleged plot by shooting paintball guns and real weapons in Gouldsboro, Pa., 30 miles southeast of Scranton, officials said. One had experience as a sniper in Kosovo, Christie said."

And some of you ask why "foreign posters" care about what happens in Kosovo.
How long will the opinions of the US stay in your favor with press like this. Besides the fact that most of us don't know that the KLA was a training ground for middle eastern terrorists.

If Kosovo gets independence then "greater albania" grows a bit more and with it the drug trade, sex slavery trade, and the potential terrorist base in Europe.

You think America cares about you? Not likely, our politicians don't even care about us (American citizens) why would they care about you in the "Everey muslim is a terrorist" regime of GW?

Dear albanians wherever you live, the key word is assimilate. It's easy, just go with the flow, and enjoy the benefits your home country is providing. You want to part of the EU, which means no borders, yet those borders are the most important to you. It can't work, do you see the logic?

Kosovo is Serbian and always has been read the historical literature. To annex Kosovo and give it to the Albanians is not a new concept to the Americans they did it to Mexico afterall by taking Texas! Also what about the Serbian people that were killed by Albanians throughout the centuries? It is easy to point the finger at a whole race and play the innocent victim. Is the accuser always holy now? I doubt it very much. A life is a life regardless of race and religion! By handing over Kosovo is creating a Greater Albania which was what NATO and its allied forces wanted to put a stop to when they claimed that Serbia wanted to create a Greater Serbia! But they deem it feasible to allow the independence of Kosovo. Did any one stop to think that Kosovo will inevitably be absorbed and taken control over by Albania? Or do they even care? Serbia is located in one of the best yet worst places in Europe, the crossroads, a junction point were East meets West, two vastly different cultures clash.

What no Independence - but it is 1st June - what a surprise!!!

I guess we can look forward to the new talks that will have to occur following Bush & Putins chat in July!!!

Its not that important to write somewhere where there are already more than 61 comments but I just wanted to say that Lavrov made it very clear that if Kosova gets independent then Abkhasia and South Osetia will get independence also. This means that Kosova South Osetia and Abkhazia will win and Serbia will end up with empty hands. This is what Russians are planning to do, get something for themselves, not for Serbia. I feel sorry that the Serbs will only be used from Russians so the Russians could benefit.
Russia is not saying that Republika Srpska will be indepenent but South OSetia and Abkhazia... this clearly shows that Russians care for Russians, not for serbs.
Thanks

Joe you wrote > About military escort: that would be a good idea for some Hungarian children going or returning from school, who often are attacked on there way. Parents organize themselves to accompany them.

What is your problem? This is false and quite frankly insulting, where are you from? Have you ever been to Vojvodina, I think NOT. I have and in fact my wife is from there and I can say that your claim is not true! Its people like you that cause little wars that become big wars, and as soon as the first bullet is fired people like you are the first to run away and let others fight. Kosovo will never get independence so long as fools like you advocate it.

Nick I think all that you were trying to do was avoiding the fact that Kosovo was/is part of Serbia. It was a federal entity in that it had a memeber of the SFRY presidency etc. But it also elected members to the Serbian Assembly.

PS please at least try to correctly spell my name.

@ilir

Firstly, the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo were not banned from state institutions they chose to bycott and set up a parallel system,(this alone would prompt a crack down by any western country if it happened with in their own borders). Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo then started an armed insurrection.

Secondly, you said: "You sent the army and commited genocide." I will state yet again that I am British to the nth generation with no familial connection to the Balkans, so I(as in my national group) sent the RAF to take part in the illegal bombing of a sovereign state,(for which I am deeply sorry and embarrased).

Thirdly, check the definition of genocide in a dictionary and then compare it with casualty figures compiled by UN.

So to sum up, the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo created their own disenfranchisement and they also created the war by forming a terrorist group and conning NATO into backing them. None of this changes the fact that there is no legal basis for the creation of Rep. of KosovA and if some sort of quasi-independent status is cobbled together then KosovA has a bleak future of crushing poverty and isolation ahead. When I lived and worked in Pristina I used to love the aroma of the home roasted coffee beans. Wake Up and Smell Them.

Gnc Loxha, HAHAHAHA. did you put together that Mickey Mouse website which you linked and included in your comment. Very amateur indeed. If General McKenzie committed a crime against the muslims then why wasn't he brought to justice???

First of all, Joe, the more you write the more you show your true colours. You have obviously never been to Vojvodina and know nothing about it. I was born there and I can tell you that Serbs, Hungarians, Slovaks, Romanains and even Croats live and coexist in peace there, and mixed marriages are abundant. Your claims that Hungarians have to walk their kids to school are an absolute joke, and you sir are a complete liar. Thank you for exposing yourself for the fraud that you are.
As for that link that Gnc Loxha supplied, accusing Canadian Major General Lewis Mackenzie of raping muslim girls, just like Bosnian Muslim government did, they didn't realize that the date they said the rapes took place he was actually at a conference in Belgrade. I guess his accusers were even too stupid to check their dates before trying to spread their lies and propoganda. Lewis Mackenzie is a Canadian hero, and an honest man, a great man - which is why he was removed from his command in Bosnia - because he actually told the truth about what was going on there! Yes, Bosnian Muslims bombing their own people and then blaming Serbs to win sympathy, everyone knows this is what was happening in Sarajevo, and he dared say it. They were also firing from mosques to get the Serbs to fire back while CNN was waiting there with cameras. It's amazing that some ignorant people still repeat these claims about Mackenzie from time to time, it just shows that some people just wear blinders all the time and let their hatred rule them. I feel sorry for such people. The truth is on the side of the Serbs, thank God for that.

P.S To all our albanina contributors - i'd be happy to grant the Albanian part of Kosovo independence on two conditions. the serb part remains in serbia and RS if it so wishes is granted independence in bosnia.

what is lavrov talking about?!!!
Read: Georgia's behavior toward the Ossetians and Abkhazians, he said, was much worse than Serbia's treatment of the ethnic Albanians of Kosovo!!!!!!!!!!
Does this mean, Serbia should have done more in order to have kosovo becoming independant?!!! What is more?!!!
Independant Kosovo without any Albanians living in there?!!!
And he is apparently trying to defend the interest of serbian people living in Kosovo?
Do you think he cares about them?
Having read what he said I feel sorry for him nad yes, THANK GOD HE IS NOT IN MY SIDE...

PB

You are right there. That is the only solution acceptable by most Serbs. Nothing below that line.

I have been reading your comments that you people write for months and I m impressed that you are so visioned blocked and you only try to take sides! Serbs write dreams about Kosovo and their historic claims that the land is theirs..and Albanians knowing their history trying to put a word to the WORLD that Serbs were inhuman to them!But i must say i Crate a form of hate for all the ones that DO Not link between past-present-future.Most of you are probably educated, but in a clear vision you have no sense of civilization . ALL NATIONALISTIC DRIVEN>>and no HONESTY.WAKE UP PEOPLE AND SMELL THE (fresh)AIR there is a saying here in AMERICA kosovo WILL BE FREE FOR NOW AND FOREVER RROFT SHQIPTARIA

From Candadian:

(You seem to feel like you know what you're talking about and like you know Kosovo and Serbia. I bet all you know is what you read period. Name me 3 towns in Kosovo with a population of less then 300 people, and the same for 3 towns in Serbia. I specifically ask that the towns have less then 300 people because they will not show up easily on any Internet maps of Kosovo and Serbia. I think you can not name these towns. But yet you preach and talk down to Serbs as if you are an authority. Perhaps you should exercise some manners, and a bit of respect. Also perhaps you should read this article > [link]
(Canadian, Thursday, 31 May, 2007, 12:32)

Ok now you people stop attacking Nick and do it quick. Now Canadian asks him to name 3 towns in Kosovo and3 towns in Serbia, therefore admitting him himself in his question that Kosovo and Serbia are NOT the same country indeed. In fact if Kosova was Serbia then the three towns in Kosova would be 3 towns in Serbia. So stop attacking Nick about the fact that he has been in Serbia because he's been in Kosova...Wake up and realize that the person that you themselves knowt that Kosova and Serbia are two seperate places (and countries soon).

To: Eclipse

Kosovo is a Provence in Serbia. Buy a world map anywhere in the world and it will tell you the same thing. By the way did you and Nick go to the same School? For your information I have been to the Serbian Provence of Kosovo, and Serbia itself. My job was to take photos for Canadien Press. I have seen things that probably most of you that post here have not. And I have seen what the Albanians have done, but I shall also add I have seen what Serbs have done to, what makes me SICK is this one sided story that only the Serbs are guilty and the Albanians are helpless victims, your Glorious KLA was proclaimed a terrorist group by the CIA in 1995, these are the people now governing you! And it seems you like it! But the Serb does not like it and I say all the power to them. Having said all this I also ad I met good Albanians, and you know what angers me the most? The good albanians are afraid to speak their mind, because certain elements within the Albanian community terrify them! If some of your own people are scared of you, why for a minute do you think that the Serbian government is going to trust you to treat the remaining Serbians in Kosovo properly. Your tired old story about how Kosovo will be at peace when it wins independence has now staled with much of the EU, you may not think so because its not in the papers but there is a reason its not in the papers, the EU most not appear divided for their own sake. If the EU was not so dived and Russia not so serious you would have had your independence by now, but that's not the case thus is why nothing has changed. It is OVER... Either make up your mind and be good citizens of Serbia and try to move your in a positive direction, or go Albania. After June is over there will be no third choice, because independence is not coming.

Svetlana (Thursday, 31 May, 2007, 18:28) referred people to my pages to see 'What Serbs have done agaisnt other republics'. While it is true that Serb nationalist extremists did do a lot of harm to communities, my pages don't only document that. I saw Serbian Orthodox churches that had been attacked by Albanian nationalist extremists in Mitrovice/Mitrovica, Prizren and elsewhere, the Roma Mahalla or Fabricka Mahalla in Mitrovice that was destroyed by Albanian nationalists and the Saudi restoration-by-bulldozer of Bula Zade Mosque in Peje/Pec.

Nationalists pretending to defend and honour each community committed horrendous crimes.

If anybody does visit my pages on Kosova/Kosovo, I should warn that I have made mistakes in the past and am sure there are still mistakes. If you find any, they're from ignorance rather than malice and if you warn me of them, I'll correct them as soon as possible.

Hey Canadian
your response doesn't seem to really respond to my point about how you said three towns in Serbia nd three towns in Kosova and then ppl attacked Nick...otherwise I do not gain any valuable info. from your post. And no I did not go to the same school with Nick...

other then that about the map and all that stuff...countries can decide borders but they cannot make people be of a nationality they're not...borders have been wrong many time in the past...borders change...nationality...culture doesn't...

Have to try and make it look like they tried in May while the US held the UN SC Presidency!!!

Tomorrow will be 1st of June!!!
NO Independence, NO ILLEGAL Declaration, NO ILLEGAL Recognition, NO Violence.

Only possible compromise looking forward to the July meeting in Kennebunkport is Ahtisaari 'Lite' - EUMIK administration and guarantor of rights for all with an obligation to Resolution 1244 and as such status is a continuation of Serbian Sovereignity!

All the Serbian citizens of it's province - Kosovo & Metohija - need to start working together in a new sense of trust & reconciliation and learn to put the 90's behind so that all can prosper and ensure economic development is kick started in what is the poorest region in Europe! A better future for all of Serbia's people (irrespective of the ethnicity) is possible and must be grasped! There is no need to delay this inevitable reality and the sooner it is understood the sooner all of Serbia's citizens will benefit!

Let's see if they got rid of the laughable excuse paragraph that tried to suggest that what took place in Kosovo somehow made it a unique case. It was such a poor attempt to justify the unjustifiable that it was pitiful. In fact, it was the most ridiculous wording ever included in a draft UN resolution. It will also be interesting to see if they have done away with the claim that this new resolution would rescind all previous resolutions, including 1244. If these two elements are gone then we might have the makings of a deal.

Here we go again >"anonymous diplomatic source at the UN"
What a loud of rubbish! The media truly is a joke in all this. Why even publish anonymous people? No one is talking at the UN so the media has to make things up, its like a child's game! I mean all media not just American, Croatian, British, but also Serbian. WOW!

Jim,

Its not the atrocities committed against Albanians that make Kosovo unique. What is unique about it is:

1) The Nato Intervention to stop ethnic cleaning. First time the alliance intervened for humanitarian reasons.

2. The expulsion of the ENTIRE Serbian state apparatus in Kosovo. Not just the army, police and paramilitaries, but the local and central administrations.

3. The establishment of United Nations Mission in Kosovo as an interim government.

4. The establishment of the Kosovo Parliament and the Kosovo Government recognized by the United Nations as the legitimate authorities in charge of governing Kosovo.

5. The revocation of all previous Serbian legislation, except certain non-discriminatory pre-Milosevic Yugoslav laws.

6. During these 8 years we have basically become alien to each other. The new generations’ dont know a single word in Serbian and hardly any Serbs speak any Albanian.

------------------

It is these factors that Kosovo became a unique case. The lack of presence of the Serbian government bodies in Kosovo in whatever shape or form can lead to only one conclusion "independence"

I expect most of you wont understand the implications of the 6 points presented above. After all, you need to make a short visit to Serbia and Kosovo to understand what has really transpired since the war ended.

It is quite ludicrous how some Serbs believe they can impose their will on a population they have had no power over for the last 8 years.

Children between 1 and 10 years old dont even know a single Serb.

Most Serbs have a very strange tendency to fight over lost causes. It is very strange, as if though victimhood brings you peace of heart and legitimizes anything and everything you do.

Jim. And you others: slavko, zdravko, ratko, etc. Im not gonna talk about thousands of killed, massacred or simply dissapeared albanians in Kosovo from 1913 till 1999. If you think this is not still enough to give this area the right of autodeteremination, than I should say there is something wrong with your principles of human rights. My suggestion for all those who are crying now about the so called "illegal independence", is to take a look to the Chart of anti-colonialism of the UN (1961). Any nation, minority or community which suffers discrimination or doesnt enjoys equal rights within a state, have the full right to seek partition with all the means.

Here we go again about this Kosovo business they have been promising independence for a year now and PM Ceku promised by the end of May. Correct me if i am wrong it is 31 May 07 and i don't see a compromise anytime soon.

yeah, agree.

once again, we are being served some "news" of a completely doubtful source. the pro-independence-supporters ( to avoid the term Albanians ) seem to be the only ones, who eagerly accept doubtful sources, anonymous persons "close to" some " inner circles" etc. ...

lousy work, seen from the journalistic standpoint.
as if B92 is still a bunch of students writing what they have picked up on the street...

I have to reiterate that blocking the creation of a new resolution when one already exisits that needs to be implemented fully first is in Russia's best interest.

Vetoing the folly of dismembering a UN recognised Member state would force the US into the position of removing sui generis if it then chose to ignore the earlier resolution 1244 it and the UN have affirmed and the Helsinki act.

In doing so Russia could apply the same actions that the US follow in all near home matters that are important to them at the loss of the US and it's interest. But this would create the conflict that the US would have liked to pin on the Russians but instead would be a direct act of the US actions. The EU would run a mile and have already said they will do nothing without a new resolution. I think this has now dawned upon the US administration that the Russians are on this issue in a win-win position and can and will utilise the veto as it will gain much more through such a scenario. If the veto happened the US would be faced with backing down completly since it could not ILLEGALLY recognise any ILLEGAL unilateral declarations - note how this bluff is now little mentioned! In such a scenarion Serbia will have finalised status once and for all - 1244 would remain! The difficult part will be for the US to control the false aspirations they have given to only one of many ethnic groups from the Serbian province of Kosovo & Metohija - namely the ethnic-Albanians who will have to "conform to it" that they are and always have been Serbian citizens! At such a point Ahtisaari 'lite' (no dissimilar to more than autonomy less than independence) will be a more than acceptable solution for all under the new realities. Why it would have taken so long for the reality to sink in is beyond belief bit is looks all the more likely day by day that this is exactly the way things will develop when Putin & Bush meet in July!

@ Nick,

All the points you made could be equally, if not better, made in the case of the Turkish Cypriots. Interestingly, given that the constitution of Cyprus explicitly allowed Britain, Greece and/or Turkey to intervene if the constitution was challenged, the Turkish invasion of 1974 had more legitimacy under international law than NATO's actions in Kosovo! Moreiover, after thirty years of living apart from Greek Cypriots (not just 8), and having established far stronger and more efficient institutions and laws than in Kosovo, the world still asks the Turkish Cypriots to reconcile with the Greek Cypriots. No one is seriously talking about independence there and there is in fact just as strong a case for it as there is in Kosovo.

The simple fact is that Kosovo Albanian case is not unique, no matter how anyone tries to argue otherwise. The EU knows it and the US knows it. The only reason that they are willing to take the risk of granting independence is because they are afraid of violence. It is nothing more than foreign policy made by blackmail. In fact, there will be a collectively sigh of relief if Russia vetos independence.

Nick,

the failures of the UNMIK administration in formulating a proper "multi-ethnic" society over the last 8 years are exactly the same reasoning the Russians utilise to stop such folly of trying to ignore the failings and pretend all is well with a new resolution!!!

You need to first implement the resolution that was affirmed before anyone can move on. Resolution 1244 reaffirmed that Kosovo & Metohija is integral to Serbia and it is a failure of the UNMIK administration to have not ensured the education of all of Serbia's citizens the languange of the State! That in itself is an ominous precedent for any seperatist ethnic group in any state - you suggest they just need to not learn the national language for 8 years and ignore the institutions of the host nation and hey presto you deserve an independent nation!?!?! Beyond the point that it has no historical, ethnic nor economic validity for being - this seems like sound reasoning but I would have to disagree!!! It is a very strange notion that you put forth and in which respect no nation would be spared form ethni turmoil and separatism!!! Where next would you advocate the dismemberment and partition of a nation on the notion that a self imposed segregation deserves independence ???? Surely failings and mistakes need to be put right not ignored and avoiding the mistakes will not correct them either! Suerly the penny is starting to drop that all are citizens of Serbia and the best way forward is learning to "conform to it" and intergrating in the state you are in!!! If this had happened in the first place then economic development of the region would have not been an issue!

Nick - Running through your 6 points about why Kosovo is a unique case, and viewing them from a different perspective:

1) "The Nato Intervention to stop ethnic cleaning. First time the alliance intervened for humanitarian reasons."

That may have made the REASON for intervention unique but now the evangelistic hysteria about the first ever 'humanitarian war' (oxymoron) intervention has died down, we are back to concrete charters and laws.
Therefore the reason for intervention has no bearing on where things stand today;


2. "The expulsion of the ENTIRE Serbian state apparatus in Kosovo. Not just the army, police and paramilitaries, but the local and central administrations."

These could be reincorporated alongside the international bodies AND the local bodies over a period of time.

3. "The establishment of United Nations Mission in Kosovo as an interim government."

Again, with careful handling and time this could be passed over to the national and local institutions;

4. "The establishment of the Kosovo Parliament and the Kosovo Government recognized by the United Nations as the legitimate authorities in charge of governing Kosovo."

Under a fully autonomous Kosovo this would still be the case, but instead of international institutions they would also gradually work alongside national institutions;

5. "The revocation of all previous Serbian legislation, except certain non-discriminatory pre-Milosevic Yugoslav laws."

Again, this could all be changed at the same time that Serbia is undergoing national governmental change, and moving more towards European legislation.

6. "During these 8 years we have basically become alien to each other. The new generations’ dont know a single word in Serbian and hardly any Serbs speak any Albanian."

As the UN agreed under 1244 that Kosovo was still an integral part of Serbia, and there was so much pomp about creating a 'multi-ethnic' society, it was up to the international community to ensure that Serbian was taught in the province of Serbia under their guard.
It was very shortsighted not to have done this.

As for the young children, it is up to parents to teach their children not to hate whole groups of people. That goes for all parents of all nationalities and ethnicities. Children like meeting new groups and have total open minds unless polluted by adults.

If any of the inhabitants of Kosovo don't want to move forward and compromise in order to exist within their sovereign state and with their neighbours, then what are they going to do? Isolate themselves? Turn to violence?

None of these are productive or logical. Whether Kosovo is autonomous or partitioned, nothing will move forward until the two communities are able to co-exist and work together and with the state.

Every territory has a "unique" history. The EU/US argument that Kosovo is a "unique" case is lazy, mendacious and patently unjust.

To Nick,

You wrote:
I expect most of you wont understand the implications of the 6 points presented above. After all, you need to make a short visit to Serbia and Kosovo to understand what has really transpired since the war ended.

You seem to feel like you know what you're talking about and like you know Kosovo and Serbia. I bet all you know is what you read period. Name me 3 towns in Kosovo with a population of less then 300 people, and the same for 3 towns in Serbia. I specifically ask that the towns have less then 300 people because they will not show up easily on any Internet maps of Kosovo and Serbia. I think you can not name these towns. But yet you preach and talk down to Serbs as if you are an authority. Perhaps you should exercise some manners, and a bit of respect. Also perhaps you should read this article > http://www.theonerepublic.com/archives/Columns/Gorin/20070530GorinProAmerican.html

Canadian,

For your information i was born in the town of Gjakova (Serb: Djakovica) on the south-western part of Kosovo and currently live and work in Prishtina (for your information, capital of Kosovo) More precisely i am writing about 200 meters from the Scanderbeg Statue and close to the former Hotel Bozhur.

3 Villages in Kosovo with less than 300 people:

In the Municipality of Gjakova: (Meja, Nec, Plankqorr, Baballoq, Berkoc, Babaj te Bokes, Smolica, Skivjan, Nashec, Bec)

In the Municipality of Rahovec:

(Gexhe, Radoste, Ratkoc, Pastasel i Ulet, Pastasel i Eperm, Senoc, Drenoc, Guri i Kuq, Mrasor, Koznik, Dardhe e Vogel)

I have visited all of the villages of the municipalities of Gjakova, Rahoves, Peja and Prizren when working with the European Agjency for Reconstruction assesing war damages and providing building materials for the reconstruction of tens of thousands of burned homes.

I have never been to Serbia nor do i want to go there so i dont know any villages there.

The only theory I have as to why the USA is risking angering the Russians and committing such an illegal act is so George Bush could say he accomplished one foreign policy objective without war, and also did it for a Muslim people. This is not about what is right or wrong in the eyes of the USA. This is about what it will do for them, as in their image to the muslim world. I do find it sad that they are willing to sacrifice the Serbian people for this, but they don't care much for the Balkans.

George Bush has been making one mistake after another. I'm sure this is his way of taking the easy road for a quick Clinton-like victory. Since the Serbian people didn't put up too much of a fight in 1999, they think it will be a piece of cake.

To Nick:

So then you do know Kosovo. Because I conquer that at least 3 of those villages, are indeed 300 or less people, however there are several on your list that I never heard of, are you people changing names of villages now? Like you added the "a" to Kosovo? Also as you admit yourself you have never been to Serbia, so you don't know much about anything other then the immediate province of Kosovo. Nonetheless I appreciate you taking the time to answer my challenge. It is a shame that you are such a nationalist. You know of course that last month 1300 grade school Albanians went on a field trip to Belgrade, and enjoyed themselves, as reported on B92. I wonder when it would be possible for 1300 Serbian grade school students to go on a trip to Pristina. Who is really the a nationalist people, Serbs or Albanians?

independence? how can you celebrate when legally you'll alway remain a part of serbia. the whole WORLD can back your independence move but if russia uses it's veto then you have no legal claim to Kosovo. it's as simple as that. you may have defacto indepenence, but when the USA has no use for Kosovo territory and moves out Serbia can rightly claim it's territory. it may be a long time, but ultimately the albanians will lose out which is why you, the europeans and the USA are so desperate for Russia NOT to use it's veto. The USA and the europeans know full well the implications of a russian veto. Kosovo as an independent state would be like a ticking time bomb.

Lets see...east timor independence (which was part of a much more powerful nation than serbia) didnt cause a precedent so to say that Kosovo will all of a sudden become a precedent is hard to understand. why is kosovo more of a precedent than east timor? especially since conflict in east timor was on lower scale than kosovo. Not surprising serbs ignore east timor situation, as it drowns their precedent theory.

If anything, east timor can be used as an excuse for kosovo to claim independence, but they are not which proves that each case is always judged on individual merits.

Serbs think they are more important than they really are and unfortunately it has people with rascist attitutes like Princip which dont help their own cause.

Nick: "I have never been to Serbia."

If you are in Kosovo, you are living in Serbia! What a disrespectful and unrealistic thing to say.

It really is about time that serbia let this matter rest, kosovo never had any hope it is a basket case

Nick,

"I have never been to Serbia nor do i want to go there so i dont know any villages there."

- well according to the rest of the world and as reaffirmed in resolution 1244 all those places you have visited are in Serbia!!!

To suggest otherwise would be the same folly as I a British citizen of Serbian heritage stating I have been to Londonu (English -London), Birminghama, Leedsu and never visited the UK while living in my independent (fantasy) world of "Ealing'Ar"!!!

You are just as much a Serbian citizen as I am a British citizen!! In which case as Blair said recently to ethnic groups in the UK and the same can be said by Tadic or Kostunica - "Conform to it"!!!

After today is over with no resolution at least the penny will have dropped in Ceku's delusional mind since last November when he promised Independence in early 2007
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=38102
or more recently he told the US press he was certain that independence will be granted in May!!!!
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=40986

Ceku has lost all credibility after today has been and gone without any so called folly being passed in the UN!

Daniel please clarify what you mean by the insult you put forth;

unfortunately it has people with rascist attitutes like Princip which dont help their own cause.
(Daniel, Thursday, 31 May, 2007, 13:42)

- enlighten me on when I have suggested any comment that you slur as rascist!!! To not reply with concrete evidence will only illuminate your own ignorance!!!

Let stick to now instead of going back to 1913 folks if dealt with now instead of stuff we could not control i am sure we would be a hold lot better off instead of bringing up the past to justify breaking away from Serbia it that is case then the Serbs of Northern Kosovo could break away like the western part of Macedoina or northern greece.

Dear Princip,
well, it is very hard to compare UK and Serbia, Blair and Kostunica/Milosevic.
I see that the nearer it is the status decision by the UN the higher is the serbian nervousness.
I hope that every kind of status decision does not cause violence eliminating any possibility of future cooperation between Serbian and Albanian people.

Canadian,

"so you don't know much about anything other then the immediate province of Kosovo."

On the contrary my friend, i have visited most of Europe and i worked in the Fairview University Medical Center in Minneapolis for 2 years.

I simply didnt want to visit Serbia, its as simple as that.

Princip have you seen UNMIK travel passports? Does it say anywhere resolution 1244 or Serbia? have you been in Prishtina lately? There are no flags or any emblem of Serbian or Russian state!
here is a stamp you will get when you enter Kosova
http://www.deletetheweb.com/unstuck/UNMIK-stamp1.jpg
does it say anywhere Serbia or Russia !?

PB,

Day in day out you bring up the russian veto as something like the end of the world. You really overdo its importance. Yes I firmly believe there will be one. The Russians would otherwise lose their face. Also it is clear that they are hell bent on confrontations with the West...just like in the good old days. Regardless of the russian veto Kosovo will become independent.

@ Nick

From your lack of response to the various replies to your point, I take it that you now see that Kosovo cannot be regarded as unique.

@ Daniel

For the umpteenth time, international law only recognises a right to self-determination in cases of decolonisation or military occupation. It does not exist simply because a minority in a state no longer wants to live under the sovereignty of the state in the question. East Timor is in the former category. It was annexed by Indonesia following its decolonisation by Portugal. Kosovo falls into the latter category, along with any number of other separatist minorities that are trying to gain independence. It is not so difficult to understand!

If you are in Kosovo, you are living in Serbia! What a disrespectful and unrealistic thing to say.

Kate,

what an unvoluntary sense of black humour! Well, that happen when you're not in touch with the reality you spend time preaching for. Had you seen a tank parket in your farmyard aiming at your house you would have lost any kind of respect towards that kind of state.

But it seems to me that the more the solution approaches the more tha anti-independence side is backing to totally unrealistic views.

Princip, more I read your comments more I belive that you are loosing your reasoning with regards to Kosova issue. Same goes to Kate, Jovan, Jim and some others that believe in "Kosovo je Srbija" myth set by Milosevic and many other vic's in Serbias past.
Guys, you have to forget one and for all that Kosova was never Serbia, its population can tell that now and I could have told that long ago.Guys do not be blind, be more acedemic. Imagime if you guys wrote these comments with your full names, that would bring you embarecment would it.
Guys, the indipencende is inevitable because the people of Kosova do not want to live with the terorrists/rapers/psycho killers from Serbia especially now when ther is nothing that links these two countries. Come to Kosova and see for yourself that Kosova is flourishing. Kosova was NEVER serbia, it was occupied from Serbia but NEVER Serbia.

A serious question, what ever happened to Ahtisaari's plan in the first place? Was it even discussed?

Nick,
I don't blame you for not wanting to visit Serbia. I would not do it either for safety reasons. I have Hungarian friends, who visited Vojvodina and were attacked by Serbs. Attacks like that make a very bad publicity for Serbia.

Jim,

I am not responding because no response is necesary. Regardless of what i argument our positions will still be further away from each other than ever before.

I have yet to see a discussion in these forums where Serbs and K-Albanians agree on something regarding Kosovo.

So i consider the best approach is for me to present my opnion and for you to present yours. And thats that.

ilir,
I agree that things like that have been happening to Albanians but more has been done to the Serbs in Kosovo. Their population has significantly deteriorated over the years, because of Albanian killings, rape, kidnapping and terror on the Serbs. Both sides can argue the same argument and the Serbs probably more so because of the Albanians cooperation with the Ottoman and Nazi occupation during the Balkan and World Wars. You cannot compare what Milosevic "did" to what Albanians along with the occupators did to the Serbs. Please stop making it sound like Albanians are angles who are guilty of nothing.

Jim

Your comment is quite funny. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Kosovo was annexed by Serbia in 1913 (with majority albanian pop.) after the decolonisation of Kosovo from the Ottoman Empire that ruled it for 5 centuries (much longer than serbs by the way). So i guess Kosovo falls in the former category same as East Timor.

@Nick

You dont want to visit Serbia. Here is something that might shock you so you better take a seat. You live in Serbia since Kosovo is Serbia.

Daniel, unfortuantely the facts of the East Timor situation don't match your narrative.

ET declared independence after the colonial power Portugal left in 1975. Before this could be recognised Indonesia invaded claiming the new ET government was potentially communist. The next year it became a province of Indonesia despite being "non-self-governing territory under Portuguese administration" according to the UN. The Indonesian occupation wasn't recognised as such. During the occupation and conflict Amnesty Internation estimated the deaths to be 200,000. Other estimates were between 60,000 and that figure. Currently ET's population is 950,000. Most of this violence under reported by the Western Media.

As you can see the parallel's between Kosovo and East Timor are few. The most important fact of all is that Kosovo being part of Serbia is internationally recognised where as ET being part of Indonesia was not.

So not such a surprise Serbs or anyone else talking about Kosovo generally doesn't cite the East Timor situation, as the situation is very different.

But laki you can travel to and from Kosovo with greater ease with a Serbian passport!

The stamp does say UNMIK and UNMIK was created by UNSC resolution 1244.

Nick, in which country was Đakovica/Djakovica/Ђаковица/ Gjakova/Gjakovë in when you were born there?

princip,the british do not treat there citizens the way the serbian peopl have in the former yugoslavia. your opinion matter very little in weather kosova becomes independant or not now, soon, or in the future
as anything you have to say cannnot alter the course of events of which the world community finds abhorent at what the serbs did in the 90's. now its up to russia and the usa decide how this will unfold. russia has asked for serbia a nd kosova to negotiate, why wasnt this done 8yrs ago why wasnt the new serbian constitution set up so that the albanians were included as part of serbian citizens and a minority with all its rights language etc but only the land. well its not a very well thought of plan with eu norms

Dear Nick and Kate,
I think it would be appropriate to add to the 6-points of "uniqness" of Kosovo one more point (7): for the first time in a post-Second World War history a group of people, without launching a major military hostilities, is planning to slice off a big piece of the territory of a sovereign state (Serbia) - simply to satisfy their selfish ambitions. It is really a "unique" case in today's world!

Reading comments in this forum has become like attending children's playground ( No its mine, no it's mine).
In order to make a comment worthy of paying any attention you have to avoid 1) insulting one another 2) try and not use derogatory language (offensive), anti oppressive approach tends to work better 3) don't post the same things over and over ( copy and paste)

Whichever way you look the Kosovan final status issue ( being realistic) is not going to satisfy both parties involved. Therefore, conventional thinking suggests that primarily we have to think why we are where we are? Will the history repeat itself? And what can we do to move (peacefully) forward and ensure long lasting peace and stability in the region which has been longing for a long time.

To date Serbian political “elite” failed to show respect to Kosovars and continue with their 'nationalistic' approach to what is a very sensitive matter. There was a time when Kosovars requested negotiations but that fell in def ears in Belgrade. Given current attitude in the Serbian politics its incomprehensible to even think how Kosovars would be integrated in such environment.

Without going into much details of this, there are arguments in both grounds. But as currently we can all see bookies favorite Kosovans, given the overwhelming support from international community. Yes Russia is opposing and it's likely will continue to do so until inturn they get few more carrots and as we have seen in the past they will back down. However if they strenuously object and sustain current position (remember Israil), then Kosovo will unilaterally proclaim their independence. Life will be harsh but the freedom will be priceless and justice will finally prevail and again Serbian minority in Kosovo will be the losers. Remember Kosovars run parallel states from mid 80's to 1998 under a brutal and barbaric regime but with the independence there is immense hope that Kosovars will make it work for themselves.

As i said before the Independence is neither imminent nor inevitable

Could you serbs tell what is the real solution if not indipendence of Kosovo? did you ever (apart of rethorics, contamination of the Kosovo minorities, extending the underground activities) have done any thing convincing for what you look for? Tell only one single fact>

"Lets see...east timor independence (which was part of a much more powerful nation than serbia) didnt cause a precedent so to say that Kosovo will all of a sudden become a precedent is hard to understand. why is kosovo more of a precedent than east timor? (Daniel, Thursday, 31 May, 2007, 13:42) "
The reason is simple -- Indonesia's then President Harbibi formally allowed the Timorese to conduct a referendum on independence which they did and subsequently became independent with Indonesia's consent. This consent is totally lacking in Belgrade's case.

One more thing, all the world is now aware of Russia's opposition to an imposed solution. Not many know that China is just as resolved too -- why you ask? Because in the 19th Century, the very countries (UK, US, France, Germany and Italy) together with Japan which forced a weakened China of the Qing Dynasty to cede Hong Kong, Tientsin, Shanghai, Taiwan etc are the very same countries now trying to impose their position on Serbia. Not many in the world knows this, but the Chinese actualy feel a kinship with the Serbians on this Western bullying -- it is nothing new to the Chinese as far as they are concerned. So don't expect the West's UN resolution proposal on Kosovo to get a sympathetic Chinese reception either!

To Genc, Nick, and Co.

Go to CNN, AP, Reuters etc. You will notice every article regarding Kosovo starts off with "Pristina, Serbia" and refers to it as the "Serbian province of Kosovo".

Welcome to reality my friend.

To all of you who are saying Kosovo is serbia, go to Pristina (part of SErbia, too, according to you) and say it loudly or just even go there.

Nick what you say favors partition. If Serbs are not going to integrate into Albanian institutions than the only thing to do is for the Serb areas to remian a part of Serbia.

Joe, I remind you about it all the time because it's obvious that you nor the other albanians don't seem to truly understand the ramifications of a Russian veto - no official rcognition by the EU, UN, IMF, World bank, etc,etc. You'll end up ni the same situation as Northern Cyprus and believe me, the standard of living in Northern Cyprus is very poor indeed after 30+ years of isolation. Kosovo will suffer the same fate and probably worse as at least northern Cyprus is protected by it's kin - Turkey. What will Kosovo do when the USA has no more use for it?? The end of that patronage will be the final nail in the coffin for Kosovo. As for Vojvodina, i'm sure you'd like to break that away from Serbia, but unfortunately that isn't going to happen.

Philip Davis,

Gjakova was part of a federal entity of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

John 2,

What you just said is by far the smartest thing here.

Joe, unfortunately although you and your fellow Hungarians would like to annex Vojvodina it just isn't going to happen. you'll just have to live with the fact that the Austro-Hungarian empire crumbled many years ago and is not going to come back. it's petty of you to have such anti Serb feelings over an incident which occurred nearly 100 years ago, caused WWI and resulte in the break up of the Hungarian empire. it's happened - deal with it.

Kosovo won't set any precedent. Bangladesh, Eritrea and East Timor are similar if not identical cases.

@ Nikshala

Please credit me with a bit of intelligence! I am not shooting myself in the foot. Like many others on this forum, you don't know much about international relations or international law. Kosovo is not a colony. This is not only made clear by the fact that it was internationally recognised as a province of Serbia in the context of Yugoslavia, it is also confirmed under Resolution 1244. I have never heard any serious official or analyst argue that it is a colony of Serbia that would give it a right to self-determination on these grounds. Had there been any right to claim independence, don't you think that those advocating independence would have presented it and saved themselves all the current trouble they are facing. Or are they just stupid as well?

So, who's laughing now?

@ Nick

You can duck out of the argument all you like, but the fact remains that Kosovo cannot be seen as unique. I presented a good case for why Northern Cyprus has a greater right to independence than Kosovo. You can say that we don't agree and that we never will, but this is exactly the negotiating strategy that got the Kosovo Albanians into the mess they are facing now!

Victor...

everyone makes mistakes and everyone have the right to learn from and to correct oneself.
the international community is just amending something wrong they did toward Albanians,in 1913,with the treaty of london.
And it's not a coicidence that,was an american, president Wilson who arrested the serbian expansionist plans against the Albanian state during the peace conference in paris after WW1 and here they are about 100years later the Americans,again,stoping your obscure planes over the Kosovar state.
however these things are not important anymore,finally the UN security council will "illuminate" us with the finall decision...supervised independence or full independence(in case of russian veto),i guess which is better.

Princip, Kate and some others

It is easy for you to comment here about international law, Serbia's territory, history etc etc. - since you live in safety in UK and whatever happens in Kosovo won't affect you.

You obviously have never even set foot in Kosovo or met any albanians, judging by your lack of understanding of the situation on the ground. Anybody who has been in Kosovo has realised that the only possible solution for at least next 4 or 5 decades is Independence.

Yes, Russia can cause trouble, which will make the recoginition more difficult for now, but the end result is the same.

Albanians never dropped their aspirations for independece even during the Milosevic brutal regime and before the war, what makes you think that they will now, or maybe after Russia's veto?

For you Princip & Co the status of Kosovo is obviously about scoring some cheap political, hisotrical points, whereas for us albanians its about our life and home.

propoganda agaisnt albanians paint a differnt picture disregarding the reality on teh ground

http://www.pbase.com/alangrant
http://www.world66.com/europe/albania
http://www.albca.com/aclis/
http://www.univers-al.com/eng/index.html
http://www.albania-hotel.com/tirana_hotels.html
What Serbs have done agaisnt other republics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omarska_concentration_camp
http://balkansnet.org/nusreta.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/inside_kosovo/velika_krusa.stm
http://newsblaze.com/story/20070426075856tsop.nb/newsblaze/TOPSTORY/Top-Storhttp://usinfo.state.gov/usinfo/Archive/2007/Apr/24-260083.htmlies.html
http://usinfo.state.gov/usinfo/Archive/2007/Apr/24-469491.html
http://kosovo-community-cultural-heritage.blogspot.com/
http://www.kare11.com/video/player.aspx?aid=46581&bw=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwl1xyzgd-o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX17oIPKubA&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-lglzKMqe4&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvALgPN5JBw

http://photos8.flickr.com/10670056_ec8e1b80fc_m.jpg

http://www.hri.org/news/balkans/rferl/1998/98-10-29.rferl.html

http://www.pbase.com/alangrant/albania
http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/messagepost.cfm?postaction=reply&catid=15&threadid=1032527&messid=8826019&STARTPAGE=3&parentid=0&from=2

DMXPHPB,
It is very childish from you to resort to accusations of annexation. It seems that you have no arguments. The other thing: why are you diverting the subject from the current situation of the Hungarians from Vojvodina with Sarajevo of 100 years ago? Instead of Sarajevo you could perhaps also explain why 60 - 80,000 peacefull Hungarian peasants were massacred in 1944.

Philip Davies, you asked in a very meaningful way '... in which country was Gjakova/...'!?
Answer: it was in occupied Kosovo and now is in free Kosova...
Nick, don't be provocated by the comments of the others on your statements. Kosovars never considered Kosovo as part of Serbia and when they traveled to/through Serbia they knew exactly where the borders are. Serbia was never homeland of Kosovars, Sebia was occupier of Kosovo. Why it should be now interpreted differently?!
Question for Serbs and those who are on their side: if you considered Kosovo as part of Serbia how could you destroy it that way, how you could kill, masacre, rape, burn your own citizens?!?!?! It must be clear once and forever that Kosovo had and has its own way, Serbia can not have Kosovo without Kosovars, Kosovo and Serbia can try to be only good neighbors after official excuse from Serbs and Serbia... Good luck Kosovo on your own way...

Princip, not that Kosovars are (not) Serbian citizens, but K-Serbs in Serbia are called
'S(h)iptari'. I guess this is not new for you and this tells a lot...

Now I know that Joe is a fraud. You say that your Hungarian friends were attacked by Serbs in Vojvodina?? Give me a break! I was born in Vojvodina and Hungarians are treated with total equality! In addition, they are quite happy living in Serbia, just like the Albanians who live in Belgrade and are treated very well. Do Albanians or Hungarians need military escorts to go grocery shopping in Serbia, the way that Serb grandmothers need it in Kosovo? No. It is very obvious who are the good guys and who are the bad guys here. Just like the great Canadian General Lewis Mackenzie has said, 'We Bombed the Wrong Side'
http://www.balkanpeace.org/index.php?index=article&articleid=7427

Dane, "Kosovars" are the inhabitants of Kosovo and not specifically the Albanian inhabitants of Kosovo. You cannot claim that Serbia was an occupying power when no other country in the world backs up that claim (other than perhaps Albania).

Nick, Kosovo may have been a federal entity but it was also part of the Serbia according to the 1974 constitution. http://sl.wikisource.org/wiki/Ustava_Socialisti%C4%8Dne_federativne_republike_Jugoslavije_%281974%29/Socialisti%C4%8Dna_federativna_republika_Jugoslavija

@nikshala you said:
"It is easy for you to comment here about international law, Serbia's territory, history etc etc. - since you live in safety in UK and whatever happens in Kosovo won't affect you."

I say:
You are utterly wrong and selfish. There are many foreign posters here exactly because an independent KosovA will effect us. It will fatally damage the international institutions and laws which provide peace and stability for most of the planet, in particular the UN Charter and the Helsinki Final Act. For a precedent to be set whereby a large slice of a sovereign state can be severed by decree against the wishes of that sovereign state is quite frankly horrifying in its implications.

For your information there are 192 recognised countries in the world but over 5000 significant ethnic groups. If all it takes to make a new country is for an ethnic group to shoot enough police and civilians to provoke a robust response from state security services, then anarchy and chaos is in store for the whole world in the future. So tell me is the petulance of one small group of people sitting on a bit turf in the Balkan mountains more or less important than the fabric by which the majority of the world functions peacefully??

80,000 Hungarians massacred in 1944? by who? Tito? lest i forget, he was your ethnic ally - a Croat.

Dane,

Thanks for the advice, i do understand where Philip Davis was going with his question and sometimes it does not hurt to play his/their game.

Philip Davis,

I am not trying to prove that
Kosovo was not a province of Serbia after 1974. But i am trying to explain that Kosovo was also a federal entity, something most Serbs dont understand or appreciate.

However, what the Law or International Agreements say and what the situation in the ground is, are two completely different things.

The people of Kosovo (and by that i mean the majority of the people of Kosovo) never considered Serbia as their country and as Dane correctly explained we consider Kosovo was occupied by Serbia in 1912.

There is for example an international legal instrument called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Convention on Genocide, which say many things about the violation of human rights and such, but does that prevent people or countries from violating those rights?

Do you think the Serbian Army, Police and Paramilitaties were thinking of international law when they murdered thousands of innocent people, burned hundreds of thousands of homes as expelled over 1 mln people?

Why werent you so keen in implementing international law betwen 1989-1999?

Joe, I had this argument with you about the so called Hungarian peasants many weeks ago! Hungarians along with their German and Croatian fellow Fascists conducted a GENOCIDE against Serbs in Vojvodina between 1941-1944. Hungarians along with Germans, Croats were killed in 1944 when vojvodina was LIBERATED from the before mentioned fascists, official figures range from several thousand to 20,000. This GENOCIDE committed against the Serbs in their own country is well documented, unlike the alleged genocide the Serbs are accused of committing in the 90's. Talk about DISINFORMATION!

The fact remains that the folly has been ended and there needs a new sense of reality for all the peoples of Serbia - including those of ethnic Albanian heritage in the Serbian province of Kosovo & Metohija. Like I have said before if an ethnic-Albanian can live in any other region of Serbia then what is different about ethnic Albanians in the Serbian province - "Conform to it" - seeing as the folly has been stopped - NO Independence!!!

Sorry to burst everyones bubble, but here it goes. Anyone who is in DOUBT of where Kosovo belongs please pull out your Map/Atlas/Encyclopedia (you get the point). Look for the country named Kosova. The reason you will not find it is simply because it does NOT exist, and never has (search through any old archives). Now look up Serbia, take a look at its 2 provinces. You will notice its southern most one is KOSOVO which borders Albania. Its not rocket science now is it. So tell me now how many of you would fail a grade 4 geography class?

Wishful thinking is one thing, reality is another. Just because many people believe in Santa Clauses north pole, doesn't mean it REALLY exists. The same goes for Kosova. Just another imaginary piece of land.

Gen. Lewis MacKenzie was openly
pro-Serbian with strong anti-Muslim sentiments.
please see this link about famous GEN. Lewis MacKenzie

http://www.geocities.com/famous_bosniaks/english/general_lewis_mackenzie.html

Nick,

You state that you have never been to Serbia, but claim to have been born in Kosovo?? Ummm?? Hmmm??

Dragan,
You just repeate the official version..."Hungarians are treated with total equity". The reality is unfortunately totaly different.
About military escort: that would be a good idea for some Hungarian children going or returning from school, who often are attacked on there way. Parents organize themself to acompign them.

even if some childish guys here will once again talk about racism, without reason of course, here the ultimate answer on those naive dreams of the Russians backing down before the " one and only global superpower" ( ridiculous, every time I think of it )

“I can’t imagine a situation where the Security Council will approve such a resolution,” Mr. Lavrov said. “Such a situation will not happen.”

source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/31/world/europe/31diplo.html

Svetlana

Here is a little wake up call.

We all know you wont even read this but no worries. Truth comes out sooner or later.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=795

Jack. Do you agree that a state have obligations over a population which is governed by it? So, how do you expect a population to stay quiet meanwhile the state hunts them, bans them from the full range of services a state have to provide a population, and even expulse them TOTALLY, inventing juridic, political and even historic arguments (it happened in Kosovo in 1913-1914, it repeated in 1925, and again in 1946. Over 1 million of albanians were sent in Turkey with a state organized program of ethnic cleaning of Kosovo). On your opinion, what has to do the population in this conditions? Maybe take down the pants and wait? Well, if you are supporter of this idea, I am sorry for you, but this is not a characteristic shared by albanians. The natural response is resistence. We did it. You sent the army and commited genocide. Given it was the era of internet and TV those crimes were witnessed and the world noticed of everything. And now, you are trying to tell us: Nothing happened, forget everything and accept to be slaughtered again.
ARE U KIDDING? Kosovo is independent de facto. Soon or late it will became so also de jure. You will cry and fight a little, but at the end the history will not go backwards.

6 arrested in plot to kill soldiers at Fort Dix
Posted by The Star-Ledger May 08, 2007 6:02PM

Just thought all of you Kosovo albanians out here telling us how much albanians love the US may want to see this headline. And this little outtake.

"Some of the would-be attackers have been living illegally in the United States, while others are legal immigrants, according to the U.S. Attorney's Office. Four are ethnic Albanians, one was born in Turkey, and a sixth was born in Jordan.

Officials identified the men as Dritan Duka, 28, Eljvir Duka, 23, Shain Duka, 26, Serdar Tatar, 23, Mohamad Shnewer, 22, and Agron Abdullahu, 24.

The six had been under FBI surveillance for 15 months and prepared for their alleged plot by shooting paintball guns and real weapons in Gouldsboro, Pa., 30 miles southeast of Scranton, officials said. One had experience as a sniper in Kosovo, Christie said."

And some of you ask why "foreign posters" care about what happens in Kosovo.
How long will the opinions of the US stay in your favor with press like this. Besides the fact that most of us don't know that the KLA was a training ground for middle eastern terrorists.

If Kosovo gets independence then "greater albania" grows a bit more and with it the drug trade, sex slavery trade, and the potential terrorist base in Europe.

You think America cares about you? Not likely, our politicians don't even care about us (American citizens) why would they care about you in the "Everey muslim is a terrorist" regime of GW?

Dear albanians wherever you live, the key word is assimilate. It's easy, just go with the flow, and enjoy the benefits your home country is providing. You want to part of the EU, which means no borders, yet those borders are the most important to you. It can't work, do you see the logic?

Kosovo is Serbian and always has been read the historical literature. To annex Kosovo and give it to the Albanians is not a new concept to the Americans they did it to Mexico afterall by taking Texas! Also what about the Serbian people that were killed by Albanians throughout the centuries? It is easy to point the finger at a whole race and play the innocent victim. Is the accuser always holy now? I doubt it very much. A life is a life regardless of race and religion! By handing over Kosovo is creating a Greater Albania which was what NATO and its allied forces wanted to put a stop to when they claimed that Serbia wanted to create a Greater Serbia! But they deem it feasible to allow the independence of Kosovo. Did any one stop to think that Kosovo will inevitably be absorbed and taken control over by Albania? Or do they even care? Serbia is located in one of the best yet worst places in Europe, the crossroads, a junction point were East meets West, two vastly different cultures clash.

What no Independence - but it is 1st June - what a surprise!!!

I guess we can look forward to the new talks that will have to occur following Bush & Putins chat in July!!!

Its not that important to write somewhere where there are already more than 61 comments but I just wanted to say that Lavrov made it very clear that if Kosova gets independent then Abkhasia and South Osetia will get independence also. This means that Kosova South Osetia and Abkhazia will win and Serbia will end up with empty hands. This is what Russians are planning to do, get something for themselves, not for Serbia. I feel sorry that the Serbs will only be used from Russians so the Russians could benefit.
Russia is not saying that Republika Srpska will be indepenent but South OSetia and Abkhazia... this clearly shows that Russians care for Russians, not for serbs.
Thanks

Joe you wrote > About military escort: that would be a good idea for some Hungarian children going or returning from school, who often are attacked on there way. Parents organize themselves to accompany them.

What is your problem? This is false and quite frankly insulting, where are you from? Have you ever been to Vojvodina, I think NOT. I have and in fact my wife is from there and I can say that your claim is not true! Its people like you that cause little wars that become big wars, and as soon as the first bullet is fired people like you are the first to run away and let others fight. Kosovo will never get independence so long as fools like you advocate it.

Nick I think all that you were trying to do was avoiding the fact that Kosovo was/is part of Serbia. It was a federal entity in that it had a memeber of the SFRY presidency etc. But it also elected members to the Serbian Assembly.

PS please at least try to correctly spell my name.

@ilir

Firstly, the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo were not banned from state institutions they chose to bycott and set up a parallel system,(this alone would prompt a crack down by any western country if it happened with in their own borders). Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo then started an armed insurrection.

Secondly, you said: "You sent the army and commited genocide." I will state yet again that I am British to the nth generation with no familial connection to the Balkans, so I(as in my national group) sent the RAF to take part in the illegal bombing of a sovereign state,(for which I am deeply sorry and embarrased).

Thirdly, check the definition of genocide in a dictionary and then compare it with casualty figures compiled by UN.

So to sum up, the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo created their own disenfranchisement and they also created the war by forming a terrorist group and conning NATO into backing them. None of this changes the fact that there is no legal basis for the creation of Rep. of KosovA and if some sort of quasi-independent status is cobbled together then KosovA has a bleak future of crushing poverty and isolation ahead. When I lived and worked in Pristina I used to love the aroma of the home roasted coffee beans. Wake Up and Smell Them.

Gnc Loxha, HAHAHAHA. did you put together that Mickey Mouse website which you linked and included in your comment. Very amateur indeed. If General McKenzie committed a crime against the muslims then why wasn't he brought to justice???

First of all, Joe, the more you write the more you show your true colours. You have obviously never been to Vojvodina and know nothing about it. I was born there and I can tell you that Serbs, Hungarians, Slovaks, Romanains and even Croats live and coexist in peace there, and mixed marriages are abundant. Your claims that Hungarians have to walk their kids to school are an absolute joke, and you sir are a complete liar. Thank you for exposing yourself for the fraud that you are.
As for that link that Gnc Loxha supplied, accusing Canadian Major General Lewis Mackenzie of raping muslim girls, just like Bosnian Muslim government did, they didn't realize that the date they said the rapes took place he was actually at a conference in Belgrade. I guess his accusers were even too stupid to check their dates before trying to spread their lies and propoganda. Lewis Mackenzie is a Canadian hero, and an honest man, a great man - which is why he was removed from his command in Bosnia - because he actually told the truth about what was going on there! Yes, Bosnian Muslims bombing their own people and then blaming Serbs to win sympathy, everyone knows this is what was happening in Sarajevo, and he dared say it. They were also firing from mosques to get the Serbs to fire back while CNN was waiting there with cameras. It's amazing that some ignorant people still repeat these claims about Mackenzie from time to time, it just shows that some people just wear blinders all the time and let their hatred rule them. I feel sorry for such people. The truth is on the side of the Serbs, thank God for that.

P.S To all our albanina contributors - i'd be happy to grant the Albanian part of Kosovo independence on two conditions. the serb part remains in serbia and RS if it so wishes is granted independence in bosnia.

what is lavrov talking about?!!!
Read: Georgia's behavior toward the Ossetians and Abkhazians, he said, was much worse than Serbia's treatment of the ethnic Albanians of Kosovo!!!!!!!!!!
Does this mean, Serbia should have done more in order to have kosovo becoming independant?!!! What is more?!!!
Independant Kosovo without any Albanians living in there?!!!
And he is apparently trying to defend the interest of serbian people living in Kosovo?
Do you think he cares about them?
Having read what he said I feel sorry for him nad yes, THANK GOD HE IS NOT IN MY SIDE...

PB

You are right there. That is the only solution acceptable by most Serbs. Nothing below that line.

I have been reading your comments that you people write for months and I m impressed that you are so visioned blocked and you only try to take sides! Serbs write dreams about Kosovo and their historic claims that the land is theirs..and Albanians knowing their history trying to put a word to the WORLD that Serbs were inhuman to them!But i must say i Crate a form of hate for all the ones that DO Not link between past-present-future.Most of you are probably educated, but in a clear vision you have no sense of civilization . ALL NATIONALISTIC DRIVEN>>and no HONESTY.WAKE UP PEOPLE AND SMELL THE (fresh)AIR there is a saying here in AMERICA kosovo WILL BE FREE FOR NOW AND FOREVER RROFT SHQIPTARIA

From Candadian:

(You seem to feel like you know what you're talking about and like you know Kosovo and Serbia. I bet all you know is what you read period. Name me 3 towns in Kosovo with a population of less then 300 people, and the same for 3 towns in Serbia. I specifically ask that the towns have less then 300 people because they will not show up easily on any Internet maps of Kosovo and Serbia. I think you can not name these towns. But yet you preach and talk down to Serbs as if you are an authority. Perhaps you should exercise some manners, and a bit of respect. Also perhaps you should read this article > [link]
(Canadian, Thursday, 31 May, 2007, 12:32)

Ok now you people stop attacking Nick and do it quick. Now Canadian asks him to name 3 towns in Kosovo and3 towns in Serbia, therefore admitting him himself in his question that Kosovo and Serbia are NOT the same country indeed. In fact if Kosova was Serbia then the three towns in Kosova would be 3 towns in Serbia. So stop attacking Nick about the fact that he has been in Serbia because he's been in Kosova...Wake up and realize that the person that you themselves knowt that Kosova and Serbia are two seperate places (and countries soon).

To: Eclipse

Kosovo is a Provence in Serbia. Buy a world map anywhere in the world and it will tell you the same thing. By the way did you and Nick go to the same School? For your information I have been to the Serbian Provence of Kosovo, and Serbia itself. My job was to take photos for Canadien Press. I have seen things that probably most of you that post here have not. And I have seen what the Albanians have done, but I shall also add I have seen what Serbs have done to, what makes me SICK is this one sided story that only the Serbs are guilty and the Albanians are helpless victims, your Glorious KLA was proclaimed a terrorist group by the CIA in 1995, these are the people now governing you! And it seems you like it! But the Serb does not like it and I say all the power to them. Having said all this I also ad I met good Albanians, and you know what angers me the most? The good albanians are afraid to speak their mind, because certain elements within the Albanian community terrify them! If some of your own people are scared of you, why for a minute do you think that the Serbian government is going to trust you to treat the remaining Serbians in Kosovo properly. Your tired old story about how Kosovo will be at peace when it wins independence has now staled with much of the EU, you may not think so because its not in the papers but there is a reason its not in the papers, the EU most not appear divided for their own sake. If the EU was not so dived and Russia not so serious you would have had your independence by now, but that's not the case thus is why nothing has changed. It is OVER... Either make up your mind and be good citizens of Serbia and try to move your in a positive direction, or go Albania. After June is over there will be no third choice, because independence is not coming.

Svetlana (Thursday, 31 May, 2007, 18:28) referred people to my pages to see 'What Serbs have done agaisnt other republics'. While it is true that Serb nationalist extremists did do a lot of harm to communities, my pages don't only document that. I saw Serbian Orthodox churches that had been attacked by Albanian nationalist extremists in Mitrovice/Mitrovica, Prizren and elsewhere, the Roma Mahalla or Fabricka Mahalla in Mitrovice that was destroyed by Albanian nationalists and the Saudi restoration-by-bulldozer of Bula Zade Mosque in Peje/Pec.

Nationalists pretending to defend and honour each community committed horrendous crimes.

If anybody does visit my pages on Kosova/Kosovo, I should warn that I have made mistakes in the past and am sure there are still mistakes. If you find any, they're from ignorance rather than malice and if you warn me of them, I'll correct them as soon as possible.

Hey Canadian
your response doesn't seem to really respond to my point about how you said three towns in Serbia nd three towns in Kosova and then ppl attacked Nick...otherwise I do not gain any valuable info. from your post. And no I did not go to the same school with Nick...

other then that about the map and all that stuff...countries can decide borders but they cannot make people be of a nationality they're not...borders have been wrong many time in the past...borders change...nationality...culture doesn't...