Former U.S. ambassador on Operation Storm

I wonder how many houses the US burnt down during the Vietnam War. Ask Mr Galbraith if he would like to talk about them!

What does this have to do with Operation Storm? However, how many villages and houses the Serbian troops have destroyed prior to Operation Storm? This would be a fair question for you and all Serbs to answer.

The Serbs cannot accuse the Croat troops of killing and ethnic cleansing in the Krajina because they have done worst than them? I am sure that if the Serbian generals had respected the laws of war, the Croats would have possibly done the same. Have a look of what the Serbs did in Vukovar after the fall of the City. In case you don't know or remember, they have emptied the hospital of all its 300 patients, gunned them at a place called the Ovcara farm, and buried them in mass graves. Please stick with the reality of the serbian aggression on Croatia and Bosnia.

We will, but, I believe Vietnam is a long ways away from Croatia is it not?

Posted by Victor, Monday, 21 May, 2007, 16:02 -

The Serbs cannot accuse the Croat troops of killing and ethnic cleansing in the Krajina because they have done worst than them? *snip*

Unless I have severe short term memory deficiency I swear the article I just read 2 minutes ago was totally quoting a former US ambassador.

Victor, you'll spin any story to somehow implicate the Serbs even when there's no implication to implicate them I clearly remember your rant a few months ago when a tennis star won a game and you somehow brought up Srebrenica. Get a life! Are you a paid propagandist ot something? Why is it so hard for you and others to simply realize that ethnc cleanings, violence, and tremendous loss of life and property were committed on all sides in the 1990s? You try so desperately to come off as an intelligent individual, but you inevitably betray yourself by your own warped view of the world.

Croatia has not been held accountable for its' numerous crimes committed against Serbs going back to the genocide during WWII. these crimes were committed on a state level, yet because the victims were Serbs the world has OVERLOOKED the crimes. Like Victor said, "Serbs cannot accuse the Croat troops of killing and ethnic cleansing in Krajina because they have done worst than them". So I guess these crimes against Serbs never really happened? Protecting your People against a known genocidal force (Croatians) is not aggression Victor, it is SELF DEFENCE! A little knowledge can be very dangerous!

It is evident that BOTH sides did horrible things and for Croats to cleanse all of the Serb population out of Croatia is of grater magnitude then the killings of Vukovar. Serbs did do horrible things but lets not ignore the fact that horrible things were done to them. The whole world knows that Serbs are guilty however you dont hear much about atrocities done to Serbs, and there are many. Croats were no better in the were, nor were the Bosniaks, unfortunately the Serbs had the strongest military arm and thus did most of the destruction. It was all proportional and if Croats or Bosniaks had a stronger military they would have killed many more Serbs. It is war people but all sides were guilty and the fact that 400,000 Serbian-Croats were cleansed is very very sad. Many have not returned, which is even more saddening, it shows that Croatia nor the world has any sympathy for the Serbs.

But this ambassador was one of the ones who greenlighted the operation and pumped his fist in the air in celebration, while riding with the Croats on a tank, in the aftermath.

And it's telling that the Americans watched (after advising and training) what happened.

There were many more civilians killed in Vietnam it's true, about 1,000 times.

Victor - Any alleged Serbian atrocities against Croats ni the wars of the 1990's pales into insignificance the crimes committed by the Croats in WWII. I don't hear much from Croatia about it's role during that period during which a third of the Serbian population was exterminated. Are you proud of Croatia's fascist history?

Mike: "Why is it so hard for you and others to simply realize that ethnic cleanings, violence, and tremendous loss of life and property were committed on all sides in the 1990s?"

Jim: "The whole world knows that Serbs are guilty however you dont hear much about atrocities done to Serbs, and there are many."

I agree strongly with both of those points. I am really glad that my family was not caught up in the misery of the 90's in the Balkans. The Bosnian War just sounds like hell on earth.
I don't sweep aside atrocities done to any group - it's just terrible.
But this blame game of only the Serbs are bad and all others good is just a load of boll*cks.
It's clear that this good guy bad guy scenario was manufactured by the 'international community' to suit the ends of a handful of politicians. Nothing is that black and white.

Victor becoming the star here that is the fact. maybe b92 should offer him some comedy program?? he will piss people off but at least we will have good laugh at the end. As for Operation Storm I can suggest you to watch great peace of work by Croatian TV http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-6933409561998835089
it is called Storm over Krajina and gives Croatian point of view on crimes commited by Croat army and police. It is in Croatian but I will strongly recomend it to everyone who can understand or can find someone to translate to watch it.

«Why is it so hard for you and others to simply realize that ethnc cleanings, violence, and tremendous loss of life and property were committed on all sides in the 1990s? »

Mike, we all know that most Serbs will like to make us believe this, but this is completely false. We all know that 70% of all casualties were committed against Muslim Bosniaks. All have possibly committed atrocities and crimes but not on the same level as Serbs. Fifteen years later, and forensic experts still discover mass graves in Bosnia.

As for trying to be an intelligent individual, I think that we all are and I will never try to minimize your intelligent because we do not agree... on all topics!

Zoran,

What happened during WW2 happened then and should the Jews be afraid of the Germans because of what happened then? It was a vicious war, and the Serbs did not have to repeat in 1992 the atrocities... committed then against their people. They knew better and the army and the serbian officers completely disregarded the laws and customs of war... in their war of aggression. This is the major mistake they made.

«...and for Croats to cleanse all of the Serb population out of Croatia is of grater magnitude then the killings of Vukovar.»

I don't know who cleanse the population of the Krajina? I have read in a few reports that the Serb Gov. in the Krajina oredered the evacuation prior to Operation Storm. Remained in the Krajina those who did not want to leave and elderly people. I would like to hear you on this eventuality.

My family were cleansed out of Krajina during Operation Storm, my wife was only 16 years old and her family just innocent farmers. Even after Operation Storm, she had to live with the daily threat of Croatian snipers across the river whom you could see from the windows on that side of their house. A horrible way for a girl that age to live and she still has nightmares about the experience.

My best friend while I lived in Bosnia was a Croatian kid whose family fled Banja Luka at the beginning of the war when he was 7 and returned when he was 16. I paid for his plane ticket back to the US out of my own pocket when he turned 18 and we are still very close to this day and he will always be welcome in my home. He and my wife are very close.

We must judge people on an individual basis and not as a group if we are to end the cycle of violence in the Balkans.

Victor seems to think that the slaughter and murder of 300 innocent people by a few criminals is justification to cleanse an entire nation of an ethnicity.

I ask you Victor, what should the punishment for Croatia's WWII crimes be then? They killed far more then 300 innocent people. The Serbs of Krajina didn't even get autonomy in Croatia like Tito granted to Kosovo and Vojvodina.

Then again, your sympathy only seems to extend to those the Catholic Church sanctions.

In response to the lawsuit filed against the Vatican to recover looted Ustashe gold safe guarded in the Vatican bank Victor responded:

"Mr Levy is certainly a Jew who dislikes the Catholic Church and will try to defame the Pope and the Church. Mr Levy should try to find the reasons why Hitler decided in 1940 to 'cleanse' Europe of the presence of all Jews."
"I am not antisemitic but again I repeat Mr Levy should look into History and investigate why his people were slaugtered like lambs in 1941, and why so many nations dislike Israel even today. This would be a great contribution to his people and to him."
Doesn't seem to me that you have any sympathy at all for what the Jews suffered in WWII.
Victor, what is your real agenda?
You claim to be for the victims, yet gloss over crimes against Serbs and Jews, and only care about Bosniaks when they are abused by Serbians ignoring completely the crimes committed by Croatians against them. Mostar was horrible, worst hit city I saw while in Bosnia, yet you've never commented on it.

"What happened during WW2 happened then and should the Jews be afraid of the Germans because of what happened then?"
If Germany started using Nazi flags and symbols again and elected a leader who denied the Holocaust happened, and then fired all the Jews employed in Germany and started a program to discriminate against them? Yeah, I think the Jews would be very afraid if the Germans started acting like the Tudjman regime.

I'm sorry Victor, I still have to disagree with you. The plight of ordinary Serb families in Croatia and Bosnia is no propaganda tool as you seem to allude to. Show me how an ordinary Serb family displaced by war is guilty. If you've read my comments on this site over the past year, you'll find I'm no supporter of many of the policies coming out of Belgrade, and I share your conviction that Mladic and Karadzic need to be found immediately. However my big hangup with your opinions is that you still try to portray yourself as an objective observer of the Balkans, but come off as someone providing sweeping exoneration to one side and sweeping condemnation to the other. No one can be taken seriously as a Balkan analyst if one does this. I don't deny many atrocities were committed by Serbs in the name of Serbia - you won't find anything in my comments that suggests this. But I can't take comments seriously that seek to almost "justify" crimes committed by one side against another. If we are to follow this train of logic, Serb activities in Croatia were just a rational justification for what the NDH did to Serbs in WWII, which pales in comparison to anything done in Krajina. Not only that, if activities done by any side are justified in some way, how will we ever stop the cycle of violence? I can find dozens of ways for each side to "justify" their actions against others by manipulating history. So I stand by my first question, which asks why it is so hard for some people to realize that ethnic crimes were committed by all sides and that all sides have a guilty hand in it, regardless of the number of casualties and level of atrocities? Until that question is properly answered, I have to, and will continue to, disagree with your train of understanding.

Victor, your comments in regard to the fate of the Jews in WWII are completely anti-Semitic! How can you compare the holocaust to an armed civilian battle. Most Jews had no means at all to protect themselves and over 6 million were exterminated and in Yugoslavia..60,000 perished...almost 60% of the total population.
The crimes committed by the Croats should be addressed. Every crime is a crime no matter what nationality. All sides should be held accountable.

The saddest part of all is that people like you continue with this culture of prejudice and hatred. This is the main problem

Victor, it is time that you realised that your statements are more then just offensive but are bordering upon if not clearly rascist! I don't think you realise the fact that you are commenting on a Serb site where some readers will have lost familiy and friends through the same actions that you justify as ok and as such your comments are insulting to those who were dear to them!!

If you had an ounce of humanity you would realsie that a life no matter there ethnicity is a tradgey and please don't belittle the loss of any ones life as OK because they belonged to an one ethnic group over another. That really is something that I thought was the realm of the NAZI's!! Or are we too believe that this is actually whom you look upto and idolise!!!

Your comment borders upon racism and I believe B92 needs to send an email warning that your comments will no longer be acceptable and if continued they should inform the Canadian Authorities of your rascist rantings. You have disregarded the many commentators who have provided you with genuine figures from international bodies highlighting that the ethnic war that befell the implosion of Yugoslavia touch all ethnicities and was committed by all!

Victor I suggest you read your comments and understand how disgusting they are becoming and openly retract them - not to do so is an admission that you are a rascist who sees the obliteration of one ethnic group acceptable since they are sub human & as part of the solution - in common with the NAZI!!!

It took his conscience twelve years to speak? Was Galbraith compelled or overcome by a particular massacre that lead him to speak his mind? Would Galbraith like to see Croatia’s Cro Cop arrest Ceku?

We should be very careful to forget crimes which were committed in the past- it would seem such a practice only encourages revenge.

By my calculation, if crimes committed by the Ustashe ending in 1945 are to be considered forgotten and not applicable in deciding the political status of Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia in 1992 this means that in only 35 more years (in 2042) the Republika Srpska will have (using the exactly same logic)the legitimate right to declare independence.

This same logic also means that all accusations of war crimes committed by Serbs- (true or false) between 1992-1995 will be therefore null and void in 2042.

Or, a new logic could emerge whereby groups engage in power-sharing and respect in decentralized power structures consisting of highly autonomous entities and/or cantonal structures.

Forgive me, but I beleive the second option will help avoid further bloodshed in 2042 when some victims lives no longer matter (by the logic used)- like in 1992.

Victor you have a problem with serbs clearly but honestly some of the things you are saying are truely comical.
150,000+ croatian soldiers heavily armed with ex yugo arms backed up by NATO's radar and tactics attacked the area in order to grab the RSK land to form their future croatia since RSK was a break away republic.
Wether or not croats were expelled there is besides the point because it was not endorsed by serbia or bosnian governments unlike the storm.

The main problem is that the croats went to war with civilians, the area had been completely demilitarised and all communications had been cut off with Belgrade. They were sitting ducks, if they had not left they would have all been killed or tortured. The old people didnt leave because they were simply too old and when the croats came the atrocities against them are only comparable to that of the Ustase and nazis. What is worse is that they robbed the entire place my relatives tell me of the croatian jeeps filled with stolen tv sets and furniture.
Victor you have no idea what your talking about and I strongly recommend you think about the scale and indignity of the operation. My granmother perished back then while British and german commanders raised the flag over Knin.

Nothing like this was commited by Serbs in Croatia on a legal level whatever atrocities were commited were paramilitaries and militias not ordered from the top.

"Victor, you'll spin any story to somehow implicate the Serbs even when there's no implication to implicate them I clearly remember your rant a few months ago when a tennis star won a game and you somehow brought up Srebrenica. Get a life!"

Victor is envious that the Serbs outperform and outrank Canadians in tennis, despite being a much smaller nation.

Victor, nobody is denying the crimes that Serbs committed. The point that every poster here is trying to get through to you is that even though the Serbs committed more crimes, because of a stronger army, that doesn't mean that any crimes committed against Serbs should be forgotten. It is your failure to do this that makes you look like a common racist.

You are quick to give sympathy to people who were killed as a result of Serbian actions, and even quicker to condemn Serbs as a nationality, but then you praise those who killed Serbs.

In one of your comments you said that just because the Croats committed crimes against Serbs during WW2 it doesn't mean that Serbs should have retaliated for this during the 90's. Then you go on to say that if the Serbs forces stuck to the rules of war then it's possible that the Croats would have done the same. By this argument you are saying that Serbs committed the first crimes of the 90's wars. Let's then assume that Serbs did commit the first crimes. By your argument you should be condemning the Croatian forces for retaliating against the Serbian retaliation. But of course, you do not, which prompts me to say that you are biased.

So then Victor, could you clarify whether you still believe Serbs shouldn't have committed any crimes against Croats as retaliation for WW2. If this is the case then i will expect you to condemn the crimes committed by Croats against the Serbs as retaliation for what happened in Croatia.

The question here is not whom did worse to whom.The natural Balkan defense comes up "well they were worse"or "they did it to us" The question here is the ambasador reminiscing on his "junkyard dogs" but not going far enough to include american involvment.

Why are all you guys getting so worked up over some comments posted by Victor? I have a sneaking supsicion he is typing away from the very offices of this Soros funded/owned media outlet. Anything to get the readers attention

There is evidence that Serbian military authorities in the so-called Srpska Krajina ordered the evacuation of the entire Serb population there. Unlike the poorly armed Croats defending the city of Vukovar, which fell after a three-month siege in 1992 and resulted in thousands of Croatian refugees leaving the city on foot with only the clothes on their backs, the much better armed Serbs in so-called Krajina chose to retreat and the population was evacuated in cars, trucks and on tractors of Croatians, which filled with possessions—further evidence, circumstantial perhaps, that the evacuation was planned ahead of time. It is estimated that at least 1,000 Serbs suspected of committing major war crimes against Croats from 1991-1995 left with the Serb evacuees and most probably escaped prosecution forever. The Hague have stated that, If I am not mistaken, 100 DM was paid for each dead Croatian citizen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIIN1uONnsc&mode=related&search=

I ask you, what would the WWII celebrations be like to day if Germans to this day (1) did not seek forgiveness from France, Britain and the rest of Europe and humanity; (2) denied war crimes were committed by the Germans; and (3) claimed that it is the Allies who were the true war criminals in WWII? I suspect that, in fact, there would indeed be animosity towards Germans.

I would try to clarify my position on many 'accusations' exposed in your various posts.

First, I am surprised that none of you answered my question on the Krajina evacuation. According to my sources, the Serbian auto-proclaimed Gov. of the Krajina ordered the evacuation of the Krajina prior to the arrival of the Croat Army. According to various sources, only the elderly people (and some who chose to remain there)remained in the Krajina.

Second, I would like to answer Matthew who chose to reveal comments I made to him personnally through personal emails! This is highly incorrect. What is personal should remain personal. I will not use what Matthew told me through emails on this forum, because his comments were meant to me alone. I am disappointed and this shows well what Bosniaks often told me through posts or in real life: never turn your back on a Serb! I do not want to generalize, but I find Matthew's behavior very disrespectful.

In his post, Matthew minimizes the assassination of 300 Croats as an isolated incident perpetrated by 'a few criminals'! And what about Darko Mrdja who killed 200 Muslim Bosniaks on Mount Vlasic? And the 500 Muslims killedin Bratunac!! Are these also isolated events by a few? I do not agree!! I would like to point out to our friend Matthew that the 'few criminals' received their order from the high ranks of the army who received theirs from Karadzic and Mladic themselves, and possibly Milosevic in Serbia!

I repeat to all of you: the Serb's brutality generated also brutalities; and the Serb action has generated the same reaction against them. Thus, if the Serbs had RESPECT for the Laws and Customs of war, possibly the Croats would have followed the same path.

Victor - If the Serbs committed atrocities that doesn't mean that it is OK or morally correct for the Croats to commit atrocities. The Serbs in Krajina left because they were forewarned by the Croatian army of their intention to overrun Krajina and were told to leave by them - This is a well documented fact.

And if you haven't already realised, you should read Mario's statement which is just above yours to understand the mindset of the Serbs i.e. The Croats perpetrated brutal crimes in WWII which were far worse than all the crimes of all sides in the 1990's, yet never apologised for their actions. indeed, Croatia has tried to implicate Serbia by saying that it was sided with Nazi Germany and not Croatia. If that isn't revisionist history then i don't know what is. This is the reason why the Croatian Serbs felt they had so much to fear from a Croatian state - it hadn't acknowledged it's previous criminal behaviour with the Nazi's so the Serbs thought it might happen again with Tudjman. Anti Serb sentiment is still rife throughout Croatia - just listen to Stipe Mesic: We won twice against the Serbs!! i.e. in WWII and op Storm.

Which Croat should be answerable to the Hague for operation Storm Victor?

“Matthew who chose to reveal comments I made to him personnally through personal emails! This is highly incorrect.”

Yes, I admit to taking personal email Victor sent to me and posting it here. As I stated it was in response to a discussion on Mr. Levy’s current lawsuit against the Vatican Bank for their collaboration with the Ustashe. However, in my defense I have not posted his racist comments about Serbs here, and trust me, they are far more shocking than what he posts in public. Anyone is free to post my private comments if they wish, I say nothing in private I would not say in public. My email address is lazslow@hotmail.com, hate mail is encouraged, I love an intelligent debate. I have nothing to hide, I’m just a regular guy.

I posted them because they were highly anti-Semitic and directly related to the Ustashe and the fate that befell the Krajina Serbs. Anti-Serbian comments I will tolerate as we as a people do have some soul searching we need to do, and apologies on behalf of what was done in our name needs to be done. However, belittling what happened to the Jews in WWII is not something I would ever tolerate, there is simply no excuse for holding those beliefs. Essentially he’s justifying the Ustashe crimes committed against the Jews, just like he’s justifying the Neo-Ustashe crimes committed against the Krajina Serbs. Justifying crimes based on retaliation for previous crimes is exactly why the Balkans perpetuates the cycle of violence and it should never ever be used as a valid reason for abusing the rights of innocent civilians.

“I am surprised that none of you answered my question on the Krajina evacuation.”

Was it organized in some fashion? Sure.

However, you seem to imply that it was welcomed by the population, like they were planning to do it for years solely for the purpose of making the Croatians look bad.

Those people lost EVERYTHING. I know, I’ve seen both Krajina and many of the refugees from there. I know how they live, often in shacks that don’t meet the bare necessities of livable standards as we know it in the West. Krajina is a wasteland full of destroyed Serbian Churches and homes covered in Ustashe graffiti. I travel through Krajina a couple of times a year, I know the situation there.

To imply these people willingly left the vast majority of their worldly possessions behind merely as a propaganda tactic is so clearly offensive as to be practically unworthy of a response.

“However, how many villages and houses the Serbian troops have destroyed prior to Operation Storm?”

To be fair, its obvious that Serbs from Krajina did in fact destroy Croatian Churches, I saw many brand new Churches in Krajina built to replaced previously destroyed ones. However, as previously stated, justifying crimes as retaliation for previous crimes is highly destructive to the Balkans and needs to stop. I do not use WWII as a justification for Serb crimes in the 90’s but it is highly pertinent to understanding the Serbian mindset and why the civilian population reacted in the way they did to nationalistic propaganda. They knew they were nearly wiped off the map by the Croatians in WWII and were easily led to believe that the Ustashe had revived their dream of removing the Serbian presence from Croatia. In hindsight, its obvious that certain elements of the Croatian population did in fact want to achieve the long awaited dream of the Ustashe regime of WWII and finally managed to be successful in this endeavor.

“Mike, we all know that most Serbs will like to make us believe this, but this is completely false. We all know that 70% of all casualties were committed against Muslim Bosniaks.” (Victor, Monday, 21 May, 2007, 18:43)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1291965/posts

Typical Victor revisionist history and distortion of the facts. 30,000 of the 102,000 deaths in Bosnia were Serbians, suspiciously mirroring the population distribution nearly identically. The 70% refers to both Bosniaks and Croatians and includes victims of Croat-Bosniak and Bosniak-Bosniak violence. Of course Serbs represent the vast majority of all people ethnically cleansed in all the various Balkans wars, many still unable to return to their homes. However, this is often over looked.

“I would like to point out to our friend Matthew that the 'few criminals' received their order from the high ranks of the army who received theirs from Karadzic and Mladic themselves, and possibly Milosevic in Serbia!”

I stand by my previous statement that those who committed crimes in Bosnia represent a small percentage of the over all population of Serbians, who are in general a good people. The vast majority of those who fought did so in a belief that their lives were in danger and not because they wanted to engage in war crimes against their neighbors.

Victor represents the least informed of the international public and it is good that he gives us a chance to discuss the truth in a logical and reasoned manner.

«Why is it so hard for you and others to simply realize that ethnc cleanings, violence, and tremendous loss of life and property were committed on all sides in the 1990s?»

All parties have sustained tremendous loss but not on the same level. I repeat again: 70% of all losses are Muslim Bosniaks. Why do you want to put under the same common denominator all losses?

I agree with you that ordinary Serbs displaced by war are guilty of nothing, and so are the 70% of Muslim population. As you see, I am the one who is an objective poster on this board. Pretending as you do and as so many Serbs do that the three parties have equally suffered in simply not the truth! My objecction to your rhetoric is purely morale.

No crimes, no matter the party, are justifiable; and just as the judges at the ICTY, I see a difference between what Oric did and what Mladic accomplished.

Saying this does not equal to a justification of what Oric did; that was wrong and Oric recognized it himself. As for Mladic and many Serbs, mostly radical, they do not ADMIT the crimes committed during the 90s, and still pretend that they acted out of self-defense.

For as long as you don't see the difference and the level of gravity between the Serbs and the other parties, of course communication between you and I will be difficult.

Princips, I am not a racist, and if stating objective facts that happened during the war make a racist out of me, then it is your problem, not mine. Everything is in the eye of the beholder. Thousands of innocent women were raped and killed; men were tortured and killed on a daily basis in camps suc as Omarska, Keraterm, Trnopolje, and all the Muslim population was cleansed from serbian territories and deprived of its most fundamental rights, and you tell me that I am a racist because I make such statements!

I am aware that I am commenting on a Serbian forum and I want all the Serbs to realise and ADMIT that the soul of their nation has been tarnished by an Army of killers who had no respect for the laws and customs of war, not more than for their victims, even little infants in their mother's arms.

The Serbs on this forum who have lost dear ones should realise that 70% of the Muslim population have lost dear ones also. Recognition of the total horror goes in boths ways.

All my comments are objective and you find them racist, once again, it is your own problem. And if the Moderators think that what I say is racist, they should bann me then.

Canadian, the main problem with the past in the Balkans is easy to understand: all have sinned and nobody want to admit that they have sinned. The Serbs say one thing, and the Croats say the contrary. The Serbs say that 750 000 Serbs were killed in Jasenovac, and the Croats pretend that not more than 58 000 lost their life. Who to believe?

The HATRED between the Serbs and the Croats is as old as the Balkans and can be written with the blood of all their victims.

You are right, if they do not address this problematic in an objective way, in some 25 years, they will be killing themselves again.

Canadian, the main problem with the past in the Balkans is easy to understand: all have sinned and nobody want to admit that they have sinned. The Serbs say one thing, and the Croats say the contrary. The Serbs say that 750 000 Serbs were killed in Jasenovac, and the Croats pretend that not more than 58 000 lost their life. Who to believe?

The HATRED between the Serbs and the Croats is as old as the Balkans and can be written with the blood of all their victims.

You are right, if they do not address this problematic in an objective way, in some 25 years, they will be killing themselves again.

«The main problem is that the croats went to war with civilians, the area had been completely demilitarised and all communications had been cut off with Belgrade.»

This is FALSE! Read Mario's answer which goes the opposite side of your enunciation.

«Victor you have no idea what your talking about and I strongly recommend you think about the scale and indignity of the operation.»

And what about the dignity of operation as the one in Srebrenica, or in Bratunac, and in Visegrad where Lukic burned alive 131 women and their children?

What are you talking about? Have you read the definition of the term 'indignity'?? The Serbs took everything away from these people: their loved ones, their household, their valuables, destroying villages after villages, municipalities after municipalities, burning and looting everything on their passage, and you say: «Nothing like this was committed by Serbs in Croatia on a legal level.»
Where were you when the Serbs behaved as ancient tribes?

Nenad, many Serbs in Serbia and in the RS are denying that Serbs ever perpetrated massacres in Bosnia, and that this is nothing but western propaganda. You know this just as all the posters here. There are posters here - Ida is an example - that believe the same thing; The Serbs only acted self-defensively! Many are trying to put under the same common denominator all the atrocities, all the crimes, all the devastation, even though they know that the Bosniaks suffered 70% of all losses. Such behaviours are morally incompatible with the truth, with the facts, and should be denounced by all means.

«You are quick to give sympathy to people who were killed as a result of Serbian actions, and even quicker to condemn Serbs as a nationality, but then you praise those who killed Serbs. »

This a a very serious accusation and if you were a Canadian, I would bring you to justice. I have always denounced those who killed Serbs, but, as I have explained elsewhere, an evil ACTION always carries an evil REACTION. Karadzic should have known that by ordering evil acts on non-Serbs civilians was a door opened to the worst atrocities. And it is exactly what happened. As Mladic, he acted out of revenge for what happened in the 40s, thinking that he will succeed in his evil enterprise, and not thinking of the Serbian population.

It is really sad what happened to the Serb population but it is even sadder what happened to 70% of the Bosniak population.

What should have the Belgrade authorities done Victor and Mario? Say "Stay and be killed"

Like others already mentioned, those elderly people that stayed behind were killed and tortured in large numbers.

The Serbs of Krajina had to choose, flee or lose their lives. Far from any orchestrated propoganda move as you (Victor and Mario) are trying to suggest.

Cygnus,

Of course the Serbs from the Krajina had to run for their life, just as the people from Bosnia and Croatia. During a war, you have to run away from your own soldiers! You are safe nowhere! You can only depend on you.

Serbian historical revisionism disingenuously ignores their own complicity with Germany during World War II, but consistently censures Croatia as being synonymous with the Ustashe. The Nazis replaced a legitimate government in Croatia with the Ustashe, an exile group of Croatian radicals. On a par with the Vichy and Quisling states, they did not represent Croatians at large, and never enjoyed popularity the Vichy regime had in France. In Serbia, by contrast, the Nazis kept the government headed by former Minister of War, Gen. Milan Nedic. Serbia collaborated to such an extent that the Serbs were able to retain significant civilian authority. The Serbian Orthodox Church openly supported Nazi policy and theologically justified persecution of the Jews. These elements, working together, caused the Nazi civil administrator to proclaim Serbia the only country where the “Jewish question” was solved, and Belgrade the first city “judenfrei.” In is noteworthy that, six months prior to the war, Serbian enacted laws prohibiting Jews to participate in the economy and the university. Belgrade was the only European capital that had concentration camps exclusively for Jews (Sajmiste and Banjica). There are no holocaust memorial tablets in Belgrade, as is the case in the similar camps elsewhere.

Serbian big lie a common thesis proclaims the Croatian and Serbian governments equally guilty for the conflict and labels the government in Zagreb as “fascist. “ Tudjman’s government has as much in common with the Ustashe as Moshe Dyan had with the PLO. A Serb ultra-nationalists propaganda have been able to effectively use Ustashe to deflect attention away from their evil deeds.
http://www.voiceyour2cents.com/2006/open_letter/serbandjews.html

I wonder how many houses the US burnt down during the Vietnam War. Ask Mr Galbraith if he would like to talk about them!

What does this have to do with Operation Storm? However, how many villages and houses the Serbian troops have destroyed prior to Operation Storm? This would be a fair question for you and all Serbs to answer.

The Serbs cannot accuse the Croat troops of killing and ethnic cleansing in the Krajina because they have done worst than them? I am sure that if the Serbian generals had respected the laws of war, the Croats would have possibly done the same. Have a look of what the Serbs did in Vukovar after the fall of the City. In case you don't know or remember, they have emptied the hospital of all its 300 patients, gunned them at a place called the Ovcara farm, and buried them in mass graves. Please stick with the reality of the serbian aggression on Croatia and Bosnia.

We will, but, I believe Vietnam is a long ways away from Croatia is it not?

Posted by Victor, Monday, 21 May, 2007, 16:02 -

The Serbs cannot accuse the Croat troops of killing and ethnic cleansing in the Krajina because they have done worst than them? *snip*

Unless I have severe short term memory deficiency I swear the article I just read 2 minutes ago was totally quoting a former US ambassador.

Victor, you'll spin any story to somehow implicate the Serbs even when there's no implication to implicate them I clearly remember your rant a few months ago when a tennis star won a game and you somehow brought up Srebrenica. Get a life! Are you a paid propagandist ot something? Why is it so hard for you and others to simply realize that ethnc cleanings, violence, and tremendous loss of life and property were committed on all sides in the 1990s? You try so desperately to come off as an intelligent individual, but you inevitably betray yourself by your own warped view of the world.

Croatia has not been held accountable for its' numerous crimes committed against Serbs going back to the genocide during WWII. these crimes were committed on a state level, yet because the victims were Serbs the world has OVERLOOKED the crimes. Like Victor said, "Serbs cannot accuse the Croat troops of killing and ethnic cleansing in Krajina because they have done worst than them". So I guess these crimes against Serbs never really happened? Protecting your People against a known genocidal force (Croatians) is not aggression Victor, it is SELF DEFENCE! A little knowledge can be very dangerous!

It is evident that BOTH sides did horrible things and for Croats to cleanse all of the Serb population out of Croatia is of grater magnitude then the killings of Vukovar. Serbs did do horrible things but lets not ignore the fact that horrible things were done to them. The whole world knows that Serbs are guilty however you dont hear much about atrocities done to Serbs, and there are many. Croats were no better in the were, nor were the Bosniaks, unfortunately the Serbs had the strongest military arm and thus did most of the destruction. It was all proportional and if Croats or Bosniaks had a stronger military they would have killed many more Serbs. It is war people but all sides were guilty and the fact that 400,000 Serbian-Croats were cleansed is very very sad. Many have not returned, which is even more saddening, it shows that Croatia nor the world has any sympathy for the Serbs.

But this ambassador was one of the ones who greenlighted the operation and pumped his fist in the air in celebration, while riding with the Croats on a tank, in the aftermath.

And it's telling that the Americans watched (after advising and training) what happened.

There were many more civilians killed in Vietnam it's true, about 1,000 times.

Victor - Any alleged Serbian atrocities against Croats ni the wars of the 1990's pales into insignificance the crimes committed by the Croats in WWII. I don't hear much from Croatia about it's role during that period during which a third of the Serbian population was exterminated. Are you proud of Croatia's fascist history?

Mike: "Why is it so hard for you and others to simply realize that ethnic cleanings, violence, and tremendous loss of life and property were committed on all sides in the 1990s?"

Jim: "The whole world knows that Serbs are guilty however you dont hear much about atrocities done to Serbs, and there are many."

I agree strongly with both of those points. I am really glad that my family was not caught up in the misery of the 90's in the Balkans. The Bosnian War just sounds like hell on earth.
I don't sweep aside atrocities done to any group - it's just terrible.
But this blame game of only the Serbs are bad and all others good is just a load of boll*cks.
It's clear that this good guy bad guy scenario was manufactured by the 'international community' to suit the ends of a handful of politicians. Nothing is that black and white.

Victor becoming the star here that is the fact. maybe b92 should offer him some comedy program?? he will piss people off but at least we will have good laugh at the end. As for Operation Storm I can suggest you to watch great peace of work by Croatian TV http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-6933409561998835089
it is called Storm over Krajina and gives Croatian point of view on crimes commited by Croat army and police. It is in Croatian but I will strongly recomend it to everyone who can understand or can find someone to translate to watch it.

«Why is it so hard for you and others to simply realize that ethnc cleanings, violence, and tremendous loss of life and property were committed on all sides in the 1990s? »

Mike, we all know that most Serbs will like to make us believe this, but this is completely false. We all know that 70% of all casualties were committed against Muslim Bosniaks. All have possibly committed atrocities and crimes but not on the same level as Serbs. Fifteen years later, and forensic experts still discover mass graves in Bosnia.

As for trying to be an intelligent individual, I think that we all are and I will never try to minimize your intelligent because we do not agree... on all topics!

Zoran,

What happened during WW2 happened then and should the Jews be afraid of the Germans because of what happened then? It was a vicious war, and the Serbs did not have to repeat in 1992 the atrocities... committed then against their people. They knew better and the army and the serbian officers completely disregarded the laws and customs of war... in their war of aggression. This is the major mistake they made.

«...and for Croats to cleanse all of the Serb population out of Croatia is of grater magnitude then the killings of Vukovar.»

I don't know who cleanse the population of the Krajina? I have read in a few reports that the Serb Gov. in the Krajina oredered the evacuation prior to Operation Storm. Remained in the Krajina those who did not want to leave and elderly people. I would like to hear you on this eventuality.

My family were cleansed out of Krajina during Operation Storm, my wife was only 16 years old and her family just innocent farmers. Even after Operation Storm, she had to live with the daily threat of Croatian snipers across the river whom you could see from the windows on that side of their house. A horrible way for a girl that age to live and she still has nightmares about the experience.

My best friend while I lived in Bosnia was a Croatian kid whose family fled Banja Luka at the beginning of the war when he was 7 and returned when he was 16. I paid for his plane ticket back to the US out of my own pocket when he turned 18 and we are still very close to this day and he will always be welcome in my home. He and my wife are very close.

We must judge people on an individual basis and not as a group if we are to end the cycle of violence in the Balkans.

Victor seems to think that the slaughter and murder of 300 innocent people by a few criminals is justification to cleanse an entire nation of an ethnicity.

I ask you Victor, what should the punishment for Croatia's WWII crimes be then? They killed far more then 300 innocent people. The Serbs of Krajina didn't even get autonomy in Croatia like Tito granted to Kosovo and Vojvodina.

Then again, your sympathy only seems to extend to those the Catholic Church sanctions.

In response to the lawsuit filed against the Vatican to recover looted Ustashe gold safe guarded in the Vatican bank Victor responded:

"Mr Levy is certainly a Jew who dislikes the Catholic Church and will try to defame the Pope and the Church. Mr Levy should try to find the reasons why Hitler decided in 1940 to 'cleanse' Europe of the presence of all Jews."
"I am not antisemitic but again I repeat Mr Levy should look into History and investigate why his people were slaugtered like lambs in 1941, and why so many nations dislike Israel even today. This would be a great contribution to his people and to him."
Doesn't seem to me that you have any sympathy at all for what the Jews suffered in WWII.
Victor, what is your real agenda?
You claim to be for the victims, yet gloss over crimes against Serbs and Jews, and only care about Bosniaks when they are abused by Serbians ignoring completely the crimes committed by Croatians against them. Mostar was horrible, worst hit city I saw while in Bosnia, yet you've never commented on it.

"What happened during WW2 happened then and should the Jews be afraid of the Germans because of what happened then?"
If Germany started using Nazi flags and symbols again and elected a leader who denied the Holocaust happened, and then fired all the Jews employed in Germany and started a program to discriminate against them? Yeah, I think the Jews would be very afraid if the Germans started acting like the Tudjman regime.

I'm sorry Victor, I still have to disagree with you. The plight of ordinary Serb families in Croatia and Bosnia is no propaganda tool as you seem to allude to. Show me how an ordinary Serb family displaced by war is guilty. If you've read my comments on this site over the past year, you'll find I'm no supporter of many of the policies coming out of Belgrade, and I share your conviction that Mladic and Karadzic need to be found immediately. However my big hangup with your opinions is that you still try to portray yourself as an objective observer of the Balkans, but come off as someone providing sweeping exoneration to one side and sweeping condemnation to the other. No one can be taken seriously as a Balkan analyst if one does this. I don't deny many atrocities were committed by Serbs in the name of Serbia - you won't find anything in my comments that suggests this. But I can't take comments seriously that seek to almost "justify" crimes committed by one side against another. If we are to follow this train of logic, Serb activities in Croatia were just a rational justification for what the NDH did to Serbs in WWII, which pales in comparison to anything done in Krajina. Not only that, if activities done by any side are justified in some way, how will we ever stop the cycle of violence? I can find dozens of ways for each side to "justify" their actions against others by manipulating history. So I stand by my first question, which asks why it is so hard for some people to realize that ethnic crimes were committed by all sides and that all sides have a guilty hand in it, regardless of the number of casualties and level of atrocities? Until that question is properly answered, I have to, and will continue to, disagree with your train of understanding.

Victor, your comments in regard to the fate of the Jews in WWII are completely anti-Semitic! How can you compare the holocaust to an armed civilian battle. Most Jews had no means at all to protect themselves and over 6 million were exterminated and in Yugoslavia..60,000 perished...almost 60% of the total population.
The crimes committed by the Croats should be addressed. Every crime is a crime no matter what nationality. All sides should be held accountable.

The saddest part of all is that people like you continue with this culture of prejudice and hatred. This is the main problem

Victor, it is time that you realised that your statements are more then just offensive but are bordering upon if not clearly rascist! I don't think you realise the fact that you are commenting on a Serb site where some readers will have lost familiy and friends through the same actions that you justify as ok and as such your comments are insulting to those who were dear to them!!

If you had an ounce of humanity you would realsie that a life no matter there ethnicity is a tradgey and please don't belittle the loss of any ones life as OK because they belonged to an one ethnic group over another. That really is something that I thought was the realm of the NAZI's!! Or are we too believe that this is actually whom you look upto and idolise!!!

Your comment borders upon racism and I believe B92 needs to send an email warning that your comments will no longer be acceptable and if continued they should inform the Canadian Authorities of your rascist rantings. You have disregarded the many commentators who have provided you with genuine figures from international bodies highlighting that the ethnic war that befell the implosion of Yugoslavia touch all ethnicities and was committed by all!

Victor I suggest you read your comments and understand how disgusting they are becoming and openly retract them - not to do so is an admission that you are a rascist who sees the obliteration of one ethnic group acceptable since they are sub human & as part of the solution - in common with the NAZI!!!

It took his conscience twelve years to speak? Was Galbraith compelled or overcome by a particular massacre that lead him to speak his mind? Would Galbraith like to see Croatia’s Cro Cop arrest Ceku?

We should be very careful to forget crimes which were committed in the past- it would seem such a practice only encourages revenge.

By my calculation, if crimes committed by the Ustashe ending in 1945 are to be considered forgotten and not applicable in deciding the political status of Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia in 1992 this means that in only 35 more years (in 2042) the Republika Srpska will have (using the exactly same logic)the legitimate right to declare independence.

This same logic also means that all accusations of war crimes committed by Serbs- (true or false) between 1992-1995 will be therefore null and void in 2042.

Or, a new logic could emerge whereby groups engage in power-sharing and respect in decentralized power structures consisting of highly autonomous entities and/or cantonal structures.

Forgive me, but I beleive the second option will help avoid further bloodshed in 2042 when some victims lives no longer matter (by the logic used)- like in 1992.

Victor you have a problem with serbs clearly but honestly some of the things you are saying are truely comical.
150,000+ croatian soldiers heavily armed with ex yugo arms backed up by NATO's radar and tactics attacked the area in order to grab the RSK land to form their future croatia since RSK was a break away republic.
Wether or not croats were expelled there is besides the point because it was not endorsed by serbia or bosnian governments unlike the storm.

The main problem is that the croats went to war with civilians, the area had been completely demilitarised and all communications had been cut off with Belgrade. They were sitting ducks, if they had not left they would have all been killed or tortured. The old people didnt leave because they were simply too old and when the croats came the atrocities against them are only comparable to that of the Ustase and nazis. What is worse is that they robbed the entire place my relatives tell me of the croatian jeeps filled with stolen tv sets and furniture.
Victor you have no idea what your talking about and I strongly recommend you think about the scale and indignity of the operation. My granmother perished back then while British and german commanders raised the flag over Knin.

Nothing like this was commited by Serbs in Croatia on a legal level whatever atrocities were commited were paramilitaries and militias not ordered from the top.

"Victor, you'll spin any story to somehow implicate the Serbs even when there's no implication to implicate them I clearly remember your rant a few months ago when a tennis star won a game and you somehow brought up Srebrenica. Get a life!"

Victor is envious that the Serbs outperform and outrank Canadians in tennis, despite being a much smaller nation.

Victor, nobody is denying the crimes that Serbs committed. The point that every poster here is trying to get through to you is that even though the Serbs committed more crimes, because of a stronger army, that doesn't mean that any crimes committed against Serbs should be forgotten. It is your failure to do this that makes you look like a common racist.

You are quick to give sympathy to people who were killed as a result of Serbian actions, and even quicker to condemn Serbs as a nationality, but then you praise those who killed Serbs.

In one of your comments you said that just because the Croats committed crimes against Serbs during WW2 it doesn't mean that Serbs should have retaliated for this during the 90's. Then you go on to say that if the Serbs forces stuck to the rules of war then it's possible that the Croats would have done the same. By this argument you are saying that Serbs committed the first crimes of the 90's wars. Let's then assume that Serbs did commit the first crimes. By your argument you should be condemning the Croatian forces for retaliating against the Serbian retaliation. But of course, you do not, which prompts me to say that you are biased.

So then Victor, could you clarify whether you still believe Serbs shouldn't have committed any crimes against Croats as retaliation for WW2. If this is the case then i will expect you to condemn the crimes committed by Croats against the Serbs as retaliation for what happened in Croatia.

The question here is not whom did worse to whom.The natural Balkan defense comes up "well they were worse"or "they did it to us" The question here is the ambasador reminiscing on his "junkyard dogs" but not going far enough to include american involvment.

Why are all you guys getting so worked up over some comments posted by Victor? I have a sneaking supsicion he is typing away from the very offices of this Soros funded/owned media outlet. Anything to get the readers attention

There is evidence that Serbian military authorities in the so-called Srpska Krajina ordered the evacuation of the entire Serb population there. Unlike the poorly armed Croats defending the city of Vukovar, which fell after a three-month siege in 1992 and resulted in thousands of Croatian refugees leaving the city on foot with only the clothes on their backs, the much better armed Serbs in so-called Krajina chose to retreat and the population was evacuated in cars, trucks and on tractors of Croatians, which filled with possessions—further evidence, circumstantial perhaps, that the evacuation was planned ahead of time. It is estimated that at least 1,000 Serbs suspected of committing major war crimes against Croats from 1991-1995 left with the Serb evacuees and most probably escaped prosecution forever. The Hague have stated that, If I am not mistaken, 100 DM was paid for each dead Croatian citizen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIIN1uONnsc&mode=related&search=

I ask you, what would the WWII celebrations be like to day if Germans to this day (1) did not seek forgiveness from France, Britain and the rest of Europe and humanity; (2) denied war crimes were committed by the Germans; and (3) claimed that it is the Allies who were the true war criminals in WWII? I suspect that, in fact, there would indeed be animosity towards Germans.

I would try to clarify my position on many 'accusations' exposed in your various posts.

First, I am surprised that none of you answered my question on the Krajina evacuation. According to my sources, the Serbian auto-proclaimed Gov. of the Krajina ordered the evacuation of the Krajina prior to the arrival of the Croat Army. According to various sources, only the elderly people (and some who chose to remain there)remained in the Krajina.

Second, I would like to answer Matthew who chose to reveal comments I made to him personnally through personal emails! This is highly incorrect. What is personal should remain personal. I will not use what Matthew told me through emails on this forum, because his comments were meant to me alone. I am disappointed and this shows well what Bosniaks often told me through posts or in real life: never turn your back on a Serb! I do not want to generalize, but I find Matthew's behavior very disrespectful.

In his post, Matthew minimizes the assassination of 300 Croats as an isolated incident perpetrated by 'a few criminals'! And what about Darko Mrdja who killed 200 Muslim Bosniaks on Mount Vlasic? And the 500 Muslims killedin Bratunac!! Are these also isolated events by a few? I do not agree!! I would like to point out to our friend Matthew that the 'few criminals' received their order from the high ranks of the army who received theirs from Karadzic and Mladic themselves, and possibly Milosevic in Serbia!

I repeat to all of you: the Serb's brutality generated also brutalities; and the Serb action has generated the same reaction against them. Thus, if the Serbs had RESPECT for the Laws and Customs of war, possibly the Croats would have followed the same path.

Victor - If the Serbs committed atrocities that doesn't mean that it is OK or morally correct for the Croats to commit atrocities. The Serbs in Krajina left because they were forewarned by the Croatian army of their intention to overrun Krajina and were told to leave by them - This is a well documented fact.

And if you haven't already realised, you should read Mario's statement which is just above yours to understand the mindset of the Serbs i.e. The Croats perpetrated brutal crimes in WWII which were far worse than all the crimes of all sides in the 1990's, yet never apologised for their actions. indeed, Croatia has tried to implicate Serbia by saying that it was sided with Nazi Germany and not Croatia. If that isn't revisionist history then i don't know what is. This is the reason why the Croatian Serbs felt they had so much to fear from a Croatian state - it hadn't acknowledged it's previous criminal behaviour with the Nazi's so the Serbs thought it might happen again with Tudjman. Anti Serb sentiment is still rife throughout Croatia - just listen to Stipe Mesic: We won twice against the Serbs!! i.e. in WWII and op Storm.

Which Croat should be answerable to the Hague for operation Storm Victor?

“Matthew who chose to reveal comments I made to him personnally through personal emails! This is highly incorrect.”

Yes, I admit to taking personal email Victor sent to me and posting it here. As I stated it was in response to a discussion on Mr. Levy’s current lawsuit against the Vatican Bank for their collaboration with the Ustashe. However, in my defense I have not posted his racist comments about Serbs here, and trust me, they are far more shocking than what he posts in public. Anyone is free to post my private comments if they wish, I say nothing in private I would not say in public. My email address is lazslow@hotmail.com, hate mail is encouraged, I love an intelligent debate. I have nothing to hide, I’m just a regular guy.

I posted them because they were highly anti-Semitic and directly related to the Ustashe and the fate that befell the Krajina Serbs. Anti-Serbian comments I will tolerate as we as a people do have some soul searching we need to do, and apologies on behalf of what was done in our name needs to be done. However, belittling what happened to the Jews in WWII is not something I would ever tolerate, there is simply no excuse for holding those beliefs. Essentially he’s justifying the Ustashe crimes committed against the Jews, just like he’s justifying the Neo-Ustashe crimes committed against the Krajina Serbs. Justifying crimes based on retaliation for previous crimes is exactly why the Balkans perpetuates the cycle of violence and it should never ever be used as a valid reason for abusing the rights of innocent civilians.

“I am surprised that none of you answered my question on the Krajina evacuation.”

Was it organized in some fashion? Sure.

However, you seem to imply that it was welcomed by the population, like they were planning to do it for years solely for the purpose of making the Croatians look bad.

Those people lost EVERYTHING. I know, I’ve seen both Krajina and many of the refugees from there. I know how they live, often in shacks that don’t meet the bare necessities of livable standards as we know it in the West. Krajina is a wasteland full of destroyed Serbian Churches and homes covered in Ustashe graffiti. I travel through Krajina a couple of times a year, I know the situation there.

To imply these people willingly left the vast majority of their worldly possessions behind merely as a propaganda tactic is so clearly offensive as to be practically unworthy of a response.

“However, how many villages and houses the Serbian troops have destroyed prior to Operation Storm?”

To be fair, its obvious that Serbs from Krajina did in fact destroy Croatian Churches, I saw many brand new Churches in Krajina built to replaced previously destroyed ones. However, as previously stated, justifying crimes as retaliation for previous crimes is highly destructive to the Balkans and needs to stop. I do not use WWII as a justification for Serb crimes in the 90’s but it is highly pertinent to understanding the Serbian mindset and why the civilian population reacted in the way they did to nationalistic propaganda. They knew they were nearly wiped off the map by the Croatians in WWII and were easily led to believe that the Ustashe had revived their dream of removing the Serbian presence from Croatia. In hindsight, its obvious that certain elements of the Croatian population did in fact want to achieve the long awaited dream of the Ustashe regime of WWII and finally managed to be successful in this endeavor.

“Mike, we all know that most Serbs will like to make us believe this, but this is completely false. We all know that 70% of all casualties were committed against Muslim Bosniaks.” (Victor, Monday, 21 May, 2007, 18:43)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1291965/posts

Typical Victor revisionist history and distortion of the facts. 30,000 of the 102,000 deaths in Bosnia were Serbians, suspiciously mirroring the population distribution nearly identically. The 70% refers to both Bosniaks and Croatians and includes victims of Croat-Bosniak and Bosniak-Bosniak violence. Of course Serbs represent the vast majority of all people ethnically cleansed in all the various Balkans wars, many still unable to return to their homes. However, this is often over looked.

“I would like to point out to our friend Matthew that the 'few criminals' received their order from the high ranks of the army who received theirs from Karadzic and Mladic themselves, and possibly Milosevic in Serbia!”

I stand by my previous statement that those who committed crimes in Bosnia represent a small percentage of the over all population of Serbians, who are in general a good people. The vast majority of those who fought did so in a belief that their lives were in danger and not because they wanted to engage in war crimes against their neighbors.

Victor represents the least informed of the international public and it is good that he gives us a chance to discuss the truth in a logical and reasoned manner.

«Why is it so hard for you and others to simply realize that ethnc cleanings, violence, and tremendous loss of life and property were committed on all sides in the 1990s?»

All parties have sustained tremendous loss but not on the same level. I repeat again: 70% of all losses are Muslim Bosniaks. Why do you want to put under the same common denominator all losses?

I agree with you that ordinary Serbs displaced by war are guilty of nothing, and so are the 70% of Muslim population. As you see, I am the one who is an objective poster on this board. Pretending as you do and as so many Serbs do that the three parties have equally suffered in simply not the truth! My objecction to your rhetoric is purely morale.

No crimes, no matter the party, are justifiable; and just as the judges at the ICTY, I see a difference between what Oric did and what Mladic accomplished.

Saying this does not equal to a justification of what Oric did; that was wrong and Oric recognized it himself. As for Mladic and many Serbs, mostly radical, they do not ADMIT the crimes committed during the 90s, and still pretend that they acted out of self-defense.

For as long as you don't see the difference and the level of gravity between the Serbs and the other parties, of course communication between you and I will be difficult.

Princips, I am not a racist, and if stating objective facts that happened during the war make a racist out of me, then it is your problem, not mine. Everything is in the eye of the beholder. Thousands of innocent women were raped and killed; men were tortured and killed on a daily basis in camps suc as Omarska, Keraterm, Trnopolje, and all the Muslim population was cleansed from serbian territories and deprived of its most fundamental rights, and you tell me that I am a racist because I make such statements!

I am aware that I am commenting on a Serbian forum and I want all the Serbs to realise and ADMIT that the soul of their nation has been tarnished by an Army of killers who had no respect for the laws and customs of war, not more than for their victims, even little infants in their mother's arms.

The Serbs on this forum who have lost dear ones should realise that 70% of the Muslim population have lost dear ones also. Recognition of the total horror goes in boths ways.

All my comments are objective and you find them racist, once again, it is your own problem. And if the Moderators think that what I say is racist, they should bann me then.

Canadian, the main problem with the past in the Balkans is easy to understand: all have sinned and nobody want to admit that they have sinned. The Serbs say one thing, and the Croats say the contrary. The Serbs say that 750 000 Serbs were killed in Jasenovac, and the Croats pretend that not more than 58 000 lost their life. Who to believe?

The HATRED between the Serbs and the Croats is as old as the Balkans and can be written with the blood of all their victims.

You are right, if they do not address this problematic in an objective way, in some 25 years, they will be killing themselves again.

Canadian, the main problem with the past in the Balkans is easy to understand: all have sinned and nobody want to admit that they have sinned. The Serbs say one thing, and the Croats say the contrary. The Serbs say that 750 000 Serbs were killed in Jasenovac, and the Croats pretend that not more than 58 000 lost their life. Who to believe?

The HATRED between the Serbs and the Croats is as old as the Balkans and can be written with the blood of all their victims.

You are right, if they do not address this problematic in an objective way, in some 25 years, they will be killing themselves again.

«The main problem is that the croats went to war with civilians, the area had been completely demilitarised and all communications had been cut off with Belgrade.»

This is FALSE! Read Mario's answer which goes the opposite side of your enunciation.

«Victor you have no idea what your talking about and I strongly recommend you think about the scale and indignity of the operation.»

And what about the dignity of operation as the one in Srebrenica, or in Bratunac, and in Visegrad where Lukic burned alive 131 women and their children?

What are you talking about? Have you read the definition of the term 'indignity'?? The Serbs took everything away from these people: their loved ones, their household, their valuables, destroying villages after villages, municipalities after municipalities, burning and looting everything on their passage, and you say: «Nothing like this was committed by Serbs in Croatia on a legal level.»
Where were you when the Serbs behaved as ancient tribes?

Nenad, many Serbs in Serbia and in the RS are denying that Serbs ever perpetrated massacres in Bosnia, and that this is nothing but western propaganda. You know this just as all the posters here. There are posters here - Ida is an example - that believe the same thing; The Serbs only acted self-defensively! Many are trying to put under the same common denominator all the atrocities, all the crimes, all the devastation, even though they know that the Bosniaks suffered 70% of all losses. Such behaviours are morally incompatible with the truth, with the facts, and should be denounced by all means.

«You are quick to give sympathy to people who were killed as a result of Serbian actions, and even quicker to condemn Serbs as a nationality, but then you praise those who killed Serbs. »

This a a very serious accusation and if you were a Canadian, I would bring you to justice. I have always denounced those who killed Serbs, but, as I have explained elsewhere, an evil ACTION always carries an evil REACTION. Karadzic should have known that by ordering evil acts on non-Serbs civilians was a door opened to the worst atrocities. And it is exactly what happened. As Mladic, he acted out of revenge for what happened in the 40s, thinking that he will succeed in his evil enterprise, and not thinking of the Serbian population.

It is really sad what happened to the Serb population but it is even sadder what happened to 70% of the Bosniak population.

What should have the Belgrade authorities done Victor and Mario? Say "Stay and be killed"

Like others already mentioned, those elderly people that stayed behind were killed and tortured in large numbers.

The Serbs of Krajina had to choose, flee or lose their lives. Far from any orchestrated propoganda move as you (Victor and Mario) are trying to suggest.

Cygnus,

Of course the Serbs from the Krajina had to run for their life, just as the people from Bosnia and Croatia. During a war, you have to run away from your own soldiers! You are safe nowhere! You can only depend on you.

Serbian historical revisionism disingenuously ignores their own complicity with Germany during World War II, but consistently censures Croatia as being synonymous with the Ustashe. The Nazis replaced a legitimate government in Croatia with the Ustashe, an exile group of Croatian radicals. On a par with the Vichy and Quisling states, they did not represent Croatians at large, and never enjoyed popularity the Vichy regime had in France. In Serbia, by contrast, the Nazis kept the government headed by former Minister of War, Gen. Milan Nedic. Serbia collaborated to such an extent that the Serbs were able to retain significant civilian authority. The Serbian Orthodox Church openly supported Nazi policy and theologically justified persecution of the Jews. These elements, working together, caused the Nazi civil administrator to proclaim Serbia the only country where the “Jewish question” was solved, and Belgrade the first city “judenfrei.” In is noteworthy that, six months prior to the war, Serbian enacted laws prohibiting Jews to participate in the economy and the university. Belgrade was the only European capital that had concentration camps exclusively for Jews (Sajmiste and Banjica). There are no holocaust memorial tablets in Belgrade, as is the case in the similar camps elsewhere.

Serbian big lie a common thesis proclaims the Croatian and Serbian governments equally guilty for the conflict and labels the government in Zagreb as “fascist. “ Tudjman’s government has as much in common with the Ustashe as Moshe Dyan had with the PLO. A Serb ultra-nationalists propaganda have been able to effectively use Ustashe to deflect attention away from their evil deeds.
http://www.voiceyour2cents.com/2006/open_letter/serbandjews.html